Julia Ioffe on the Surprising Feminist History of Russia

>> IF I WERE TO POSE A QUESTION ABOUT SIGNIFICANT FIGURES IN RUSSIAN HISTORY, WHO WOULD SPRING TO MIND?

YOU MIGHT THINK OF WELL-KNOWN LEADERS LIKE LENIN, STALIN OR PRESIDENT PUTIN.

HOW MANY OF YOU COULD NAME THE WOMEN WHO STOOD ALONGSIDE THEM?

A NEW BOOK WRITTEN BY OUR NEXT GUEST, JULIAIOFFE, PLACES THEIR REMARKABLE STORIES IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS RUSSIA'S COMPLEX HISTORY OF MOTHERHOOD, MARRIAGE AND MUCH MORE.

>> THANKS.

JULIA, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK "MOTHERLAND" IS SO INTERESTING.

IT TAKES -- IT LOOKS THROUGH MODERN RUSSIAN HISTORY, SOVIET AND RUSSIAN HISTORY, BUT THROUGH THE LENS OF THE WOMEN.

HOW DID YOU GET THE IDEA TO DO THAT?

>> WELL, THE FIRST GERM OF THE IDEA WAS TO WRITE A BOOK THAT WASN'T ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN.

I WAS TIRED OF TALKING ABOUT HIM, WRITING ABOUT HIM, THINKING ABOUT HIM.

I WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT RUSSIA THAT INCUMBENT ABOUT HIM.

I WANTED IT TO NOT BE ABOUT MOST OF THE MEN THAT WE READ SO MUCH ABOUT.

LENIN, STALIN, KHRUSHCHEV.

THE OTHER PART WAS I WAS HAVING TO EXPLAIN TO AMERICAN FRIENDS, TO WESTERN FRIENDS WHY IT WAS SO NORMAL FOR WOMEN LIKE MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER TO BE DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS IN THE 1930s.

SOMETHING THAT SEEMED EXTRAORDINARY TO THEM WAS TOTALLY ORDINARY TO ME.

TO BRIDGE THAT GAP, I REALIZED I HAD TO TELL THE STORY OF THE WHOLE THING.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT THIS EXTRAORDINARY SOCIAL REVOLUTION THAT FOLLOWED 1917.

SOVIET WOMEN WERE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO HIGHER EDUCATION, EQUAL PAY, NO-FAULT CIVIL DIVORCE, CHILD SUPPORT, INCLUDING FOR CHILDREN BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK, PAID MATERNITY LEAVE AND ACCESS TO FREE MATERNITY HOSPITALS.

AND IN 1920, THE SOVIET UNION LEGALIZED ABORTION.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, THE NEW SOVIET AUTHORITIES WANTED TO MANCIPATE WOMEN.

IT WAS PART OF THE PROJECT TO REMAKE SOCIETY, STARTING FROM THE INDIVIDUAL.

TO REMAKE A SOVIET PERSON.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHERE THEY WERE COMING FROM IN THE 19th CENTURY, WOMEN MARRIED MOSTLY FOR ECONOMIC REASONS.

RIGHT?

THEY WENT FROM THEIR FATHER'S HOUSE TO THEIR HUSBAND'S HOUSE.

IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET OUT OF THAT DIVORCE -- EXCUSE ME, OUT OF THAT MARRIAGE.

EVEN IF THERE WAS ABUSE OR CHEATING OR SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE MARRIED TO HIM ANYMORE.

THERE WAS NOWHERE TO GO.

WOMEN WERE EXPECTED TO -- WORKING CLASS WOMEN WERE EXPECTED TO WORK THROUGH THEIR PREGNANCY AND COME RIGHT BACK RIGHT AFTER GIVING BIRTH.

RIGHT?

YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE 19th CENTURY.

WE'RE STILL FIGHTING FOR THESE RIGHTS HERE TODAY, 100 YEARS LATER.

>> I DIDN'T KNOW SOME OF THE NAMES.

EVERYBODY KNOWS LENIN.

WHO WAS ALEKSANDRA COLENTI?

WHO WAS SHE?

TELL US WHY SHE WAS SUCH AN IMPORTANT FIGURE.

>> SHE WAS -- SHE BECAME AN ALLY OF LENIN.

SHE VOTED WITH HIM IN THE COMMITTEE TO SEIZE POWER IN OCTOBER 1917 FOR WHICH SHE WAS REWARDED WITH A CABINET MINISTERIAL POST.

SHE BECAME THE FIRST FEMALE CABINET MINISTER IN HISTORY.

SHE WAS A WRITER AND A THINKER THAT FLESHED OUT THE IDEA OF HOW TO EMANCIPATE WOMEN SPECIFICALLY.

MOST OF THE MEN WROTE ABOUT HOW TO GET RID OF CAB PITALISM AND PRIVATE PROPERTY AND THIS WOULD EMANCIPATE EVERYONE.

SHE SAID, NO, WOMEN HAVE SPECIFIC NEEDS.

SHE WROTE THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR A WOMAN, THE THING THAT GAVE HER MEANING IN LIFE AND GAVE HER PURPOSE ON THIS EARTH WASN'T GETTING MARRIED, WASN'T HAVING CHILDREN, BUT HER OWN WORK, HER OWN CREATIVE LABOR.

SHE COULD GET MARRIED IF SHE WANTED TO.

SHE COULD NOT.

SHE COULD HAVE A FLING OR AN AFFAIR TO DRINK FROM THE CUP OF LOVE UNTIL SHE WAS SATED AND GET BACK TO WORK.

SHE WROTE THAT IN 1913.

I THINK THAT IS STILL A VERY CONTROVERSIAL AND RADICAL STATEMENT TODAY.

>> I WAS FASCINATED BY GORBACHEV.

A LOT OF AMERICANS HAD SEEN HER BECAUSE SHE TRAVELED HERE WITH HER HUSBAND.

TALK ABOUT HER.

>> SHE DIDN'T FIT IN AT HOME.

SOVIETS HATED HER.

SHE WAS -- THEY DIDN'T LIKE THAT SHE WAS SO INDEPENDENT.

THEY DIDN'T LIKE THAT SHE WAS ONE OF HER HUSBAND'S CLOSEST ADVISORS.

SHE WAS WITH HIM ON FOREIGN TRIPS.

IT WAS JARRING FOR SOVIETS TO SEE HER WHEN THEY HAD BEEN USED FOR DECADES TO SEEING ONLY OLD MALE FACES AT THE TOP.

SHE WAS STYLISH.

KIND OF RUNNING AROUND THE WORLD AT A TIME WHEN SOVIET WOMEN COULDN'T FIND CLOTHES OR FOOD TO EAT, MENSTRUAL PRODUCTS, BRAS.

THEY GAVE BIRTH IN FILTHY MATERNITY HOSPITALS THAT WERE HORRIFIC.

THEY COULDN'T TRAVEL ABROAD THE WAY SHE DID.

SHE ENCHANTED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE WEST, INCLUDING AMERICAN FEMINISTS WHO SAID, LOOK AT HER.

SHE'S THIS AMAZING WORKING WOMAN WHO HAS IT ALL.

SHE'S A WIFE, A MOTHER, A GRANDMOTHER AS WELL AS A COLLEGE PROFESSOR.

A Ph.D.. SHE'S SO FEMININE, HOW DOES SHE DO IT?

SOVIETS WERE LIKE, OUR LIVES LOOK -- SOVIET WOMEN WERE LIKE, WE HATE HER FOR RUBBING IT IN OUR FACES.

>> WE GET TO PUTIN.

I KNOW YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T WANT THE BOOK TO BE ABOUT PUTIN.

IT'S NOT.

HE DOES TAKE UP A LOT OF SPACE.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE MOST DEPRESSING CHAPTERS.

THEY DATED FOR YEARS BEFORE THEY ACTUALLY MARRIED, WHICH SUN USUAL AT THE TIME.

HE KIND OF MADE IT CLEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS THERE TO KIND OF BE HIS ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER AND RAISE THE KIDS AND DO WHATEVER.

DIDN'T GIVE HER ANY SUPPORT OR AFFECTION, FROM WHAT WE SEE, AT ALL.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HER.

>> SHE'S DONE OKAY.

SHE'S MARRIED A MAN TEN YEARS HER JUNIOR.

FOR HER SILENCE SHE HAS GOTTEN LOTS OF MONEY.

SHE HAS MENTIONED ALL OVER EUROPE.

SHE'S DOING FINE.

>> OKAY.

>> SHE WAS BORN IN AN OUTCROPPING OF RUSH SLA SIA IN MIDDLE OF EUROPE.

SHE HAD AN ALCOHOLIC FATHER.

SHE LIVED IN A COMMUNAL APARTMENT.

SHE DROPPED OUT OF TECHNICAL COLLEGE AND BECAME A FLIGHT ATTENDANT.

SHE MET VLADIMIR PUTIN WHEN THEY WERE IN THEIR EARLY 20s.

SHE AT FIRST THOUGHT HE WAS UNREMARKABLE.

THEN SHE CAME TO ADMIRE HIM BECAUSE HE WAS SO UNLIKE OTHER MEN THEIR AGE.

HE DIDN'T DRINK.

HE WAS PHYSICALLY FIT.

HE WAS DISCIPLINED.

HE WAS FOCUSED.

HE WAS DECISIVE.

IN A GENERATION THAT WAS BORN AFTER WORLD WAR II WHEN THERE WEREN'T A LOT OF MEN AROUND AND THE MEN THAT WERE AROUND WERE BROKEN PSYCHOLOGICALLY, ALCOHOLIC.

ALCOHOLISM TOOK OFF LIKE CRAZY AFTER WORLD WAR II BECAUSE OF ALL THE TRAUMA PEOPLE SUFFERED.

HE JUST STRUCK SUCH A CONTRAST THAT SHE WAS LIKE, THIS IS A REAL MAN.

I WANT TO CEDE SOME OF THE RESPONSIBILITIES THAT RUSSIAN WOMEN HAVE.

SO WHEN HE STARTS MAKING EVERY SINGLE DECISION FOR THEM AND SHE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO AGENCY IN THE RELATIONSHIP, SHE REALLY FINDS IT COMFORTING AND REASSURING, BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T FEEL LIKE SHE'S CARRYING EVERYTHING.

THEN, OF COURSE, QUICKLY ONCE THEY ACTUALLY DO GET MARRIED, AFTER HE STRINGS HER ALONG FOR THREE YEARS, ONCE THEY HAVE KIDS, SHE REALIZES, IT'S ALL COMPLETELY ON HER.

>> THE MOST DISTURBING STORY IS SHE WAS IN A CAR ACCIDENT, AND WAKES UP IN THE HOSPITAL, AND -- >> SURE.

VLADIMIR PUTIN IS CALLED.

HE IS THE SECOND MAN IN THE CITY.

THIS IS POST-COMMUNIST ST.

PUTERS PETERSBURG.

SHE'S GOING TO BE FINE.

HE SAYS, OKAY, AND LEAVES WITHOUT SEEING HER, WHICH IS INCREDIBLE.

IN THE WORST WAY.

TO ME, IT WAS SO HIM.

RIGHT?

IT WAS BEFORE HE WAS REALLY IN THE PUBLIC EYE.

THE KIND OF -- THE COLDNESS, THE CRUELNESS, THE WITHHOLDING OF WARMTH AND AFFECTION.

THE LITTLE THINGS WE SEE HIM DO, THESE POWER PLAYS, LIKE WHEN HE MADE THE POPE WAIT 45 MINUTES.

HE WAS LATE TO EVERY DATE ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF.

SHE STILL CAME BACK FOR MORE.

>> WHY DID SHE PUT UP WITH THIS?

>> BECAUSE MEN WERE SO SCARCE AFTER THE WAR.

THIS REALLY TRAUMATIZED RUSSIAN WOMEN WHO WERE ALSO BEING TOLD THAT THEY HAVE TO GET MARRIED YOUNG AND HAVE CHILDREN YOUNG, BECAUSE THE SOVIET GOVERNMENT STARTED TELLING THEM THIS BECAUSE THEY NEEDED TO REPLACE ALL THE PEOPLE THEY HAD KILLED.

ABOUT 50 MILLION PEOPLE THAT WERE KILLED IN 30 YEARS.

SO THERE WAS THIS OBVIOUS ABSENCE OF MEN -- OF ELIGIBLE MEN TO MARRY.

IT WAS JUST LIKE, I WILL TAKE HIM.

>> LET'S GO TO THE PRESENT DAY.

YOU WRITE, 100 YEARS AFTER KOLLANTAI AND LENIN RAILED, IT HAD BECOME THEIR ULTIMATE FANTASY.

THE EVIDENCE IS IN OTHER CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT THESE WIVES OF OLIGARCHS, FORMER WIVES OF OLIGARCHS AND THIS MAD -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL IT.

"HINGER "HUNGER GAMES" MATCH FOR THESE MEN.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WHAT HAPPENED IS THE SOVIET GOVERNMENT IN FIGHTING -- WELL, FIGHTING PART OF ONE WORLD WAR AND ALL OF A SECOND WORLD WAR, CIVIL WAR, HAVING FAMINE AND PUTTING DOWN PEASANT REBELLIONS AND MASS POLITICAL REPRESSIONS, KILLED A LOT, A LOT OF MEN.

BY THE END OF 1945, THERE WERE SO FEW MEN IN SOME PLACES THAT THERE WOULD BE 19 OF THEM FOR EVERY 100 WOMEN.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE SOVIET UNION WANTED A BABY BOOM, THE KIND THAT THE U.S.

WAS HAVING.

THEY NEEDED TO, AS THEY SAID, REPLACE THE DEAD.

THERE WERE VILLAGES IN RUSSIA WHERE ONLY ONE MAN CAME BACK FROM THE WAR.

HIS WIFE WOULD PASS HER HUSBAND AROUND SO THAT THE OTHER WOMEN IN THE VILLAGE COULD BECOME MOTHERS AS WELL.

THIS COMBINATION OF THE STATE TELLING WOMEN THEY NEED TO BECOME MOTHERS, THAT THIS IS THEIR -- THAT THEIR MAIN ROLE IN LIFE, THEIR SOLE PURPOSE WAS TO BECOME MOTHERS, WHEN THERE WERE SO FEW MEN AROUND, HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

IT CREATES THIS MISMATCH BETWEEN SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT THE CONNECTION TO THE WAY WEALTH IS ACHIEVED IN RUSSIA AND JUST THE WHOLE -- THE TREMENDOUS SORT OF ECONOMIC DISLOCATIONS THAT HAVE OCCURRED SINCE THE FALL OF COMMUNISM.

WHICH ARE TWO DIFFERENT STORIES BUT KIND OF RELATED.

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

THE DRINKING.

IT DOESN'T COME FROM NOWHERE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

BASICALLY, WHEN THE SOVIET UNION COLLAPSED IN 1991, WITH IT COLLAPSED THE TEETERING SOVIET ECONOMY.

FACTORIES CLOSED.

MINES CLOSED.

PARTS OF THE SOVIET GOVERNMENT CLOSED.

MEN AND WOMEN RESPONDED VERY DIFFERENTLY.

MEN SAID, YOU KNOW, I WAS A FACTORY FORMAN OR I WAS AN ENGINEER.

I WILL NOT DO LOWER STATUS WORK.

I WILL BE SAD AND COMPLAIN AND WAIT FOR WORK OF MY STATUS, OF MY STATION TO COME BACK ONLINE.

THE WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE THAT OPTION.

THEY TOOK TO DRINK BECAUSE THEY WERE DEPRESSED AND STRESSED OUT.

THE WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE THAT OPTION, BECAUSE FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS, PARENTHOOD HAD BECOME MOTHERHOOD.

MOTHERHOOD BECAME ALL OF PARENTHOOD.

FATHERS WEREN'T EXPECTED TO FATHER THEIR CHILDREN AND PARENT THEM IN ANY WAY.

WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE THIS OPTION.

THEY HAD TO WORK REALLY HARD, WASH FLOORS, TAKE RAGS TO SELL IN MARKETS, CHOP CHICKEN PARTS TO KEEP THEIR FAMILIES FED WHILE THE MEN LAID DOWN, TOOK TO DRINK AND DRANK THEMSELVES TO DEATH, WHICH AGAIN EXACERBATED THERE PERCEIVED SHORTAGE OF MEN.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE WAS THIS NEW OLIGARCHIC CLASS COMING INTO BEING.

THEY WERE ALL MEN.

THEY HAD SUCH FANTASTICAL WEALTH THAT -- PLUS ALL THE IMAGERY COMING IN FROM THE WEST, THERE WAS THIS IDEA OF, WOULDN'T IT BE WILD AND AMAZING TO BE A STAY AT HOME WIFE AND A MOM?

INSTEAD OF BEING A SOVIET WOMAN WHO HAS TO WORK FULL-TIME, THEN DO SEVEN HOURS OF HOUSEWORK PER DAY, AND TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS FULL-TIME, WHILE THE MAN JUST MAYBE WORKS, THE IDEA WAS, CAN I JUST BE A MOM?

>> PICTURES OF PUTIN SHIRTLESS ON HORSEBACK OR FISHING OR PLAYING HOCKEY, WHERE MAGICALLY HE SCORES ALL THE GOALS.

IN THE WEST, WE THINK THIS IS HILARIOUS.

WHAT IS THIS?

WHAT'S THIS GUY?

YOU WERE SAYING THAT IN RUSSIA, THIS IS ACTUALLY PART OF HIS ALLURE.

IT'S DIRECTED AT THE WOMEN.

>> YES.

>> THE WOMEN FIND THIS COMFORTING IN A WAY?

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> YES.

BECAUSE RUSSIAN MEN ARE SEEN AS SO USELESS AS THESE KIND OF OVERGROWN MAN CHILDREN THAT THE WOMEN HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF IN ADDITION TO THEIR ACTUAL CHILDREN, THEY CAN'T BE TRUSTED WITH THE MONEY, THEY EARN MORE THAN THE WOMEN BUT, YOU KNOW, CAN THEY BE TRUSTED TO BRING IT HOME?

CAN THEY BE TRUSTED NOT TO DRINK THROUGH EVERYTHING, NOT TO GET INTO A CRAZY CAR ACCIDENT OR JUST DROP DEAD AT WORK?

MEN DIE -- RUSSIAN MEN DIE SO MUCH YOUNGER THAN RUSSIAN WOMEN.

THEY ARE IN TERRIBLE HEALTH IN SUCH TERRIBLE SHAPE.

THEY MOKE, DRINK, EAT A LOT OF MAYONNAISE SALADS.

PUTIN IS NOT THAT.

HE DOESN'T DRINK.

HE EXERCISES REGULARLY.

ON CAMERA, HE MAKES SURE PEOPLE SEE IT.

HE MAKES SURE TO SHOW PEOPLE HOW DISCIPLINED HE IS, HOW MUCH LONGER HE HAS LIVED THAN THE AVERAGE RUSSIAN MAN.

FOR A LOT OF RUSSIAN WOMEN, HE IS THE MAN THEY NEVER HAD.

THE MAN THEY WISH THEY HAD.

WHICH GOES BACK TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHY DID SHE STICK WITH HIM?

YEAH, HE WAS MAYBE NOT THE NICEST PARTNER.

BUT AT LEAST HE WAS THERE AND HE HAD THIS KIND OF TRADITIONAL ENERGETIC IMAGE WHEREAS THE AVERAGE RUSSIAN MAN IS SEEN AS THIS DRUNKEN CHILDISH SLOB.

>> I DOUBT THAT "MOTHERLAND" IS GOING TO BE A BEST SELLER IN RUSSIA.

I DON'T KNOW WE WILL SEEING TOO MANY COPIES IN THE AIRPORT BOOKSTORE.

I'M WONDERING WHAT ARE PEOPLE SAYING ABOUT IT?

>> THE REACTION I'M GETTING FROM RUSSIANS IS VERY -- ACTUALLY, VERY POSITIVE.

A LOT OF THEM -- THE ONES THAT WERE ABLE TO READ IT IN ENGLISH DIDN'T KNOW A LOT OF THIS HISTORY.

I DIDN'T KNOW MOST OF THIS HISTORY.

IT'S NOT TAUGHT.

WHAT RUSSIANS ARE TAUGHT, WHAT I WAS TAUGHT STUDYING SOVIET AND RUSSIAN HISTORY HERE IN THE U.S.

IS A VERY MALE CENTRIC HISTORY.

I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT ALEKSANDRA UNTIL I STARTED RESEARCHING THIS BOOK.

A LOT OF -- I KEPT GIVING CHAPTERS TO MY PARENTS TO READ TO ASK THEM OR TO OTHER FRIENDS FROM THE RUSSIA SPHERE TO READ.

DID YOU KNOW ANY OF THIS?

AM I JUST REPEATING SOMETHING EVERYBODY ELSE HAS SAID?

MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THIS.

PEOPLE ARE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AND HAVE FOUND IT ILLUMINATING.

WE ARE WORKING ON GETTING IT TRANSLATED INTO RUSSIAN.

SO AT LEAST IT CAN GET INTO THE COUNTRY DIGITALLY.

I HAVE A FRIEND WHO RUNS A PUBLISHING HOUSE IN RUSSIA.

SHE SAID, THERE'S NO WAY WITH THE WORD FEMINIST.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE WAY PUTIN IS PORTRAYED BUT BECAUSE IT HAS FEMINIST ON THE COVER.

WHEN SUSAN SONTAG'S BOOKS ARE SEIZED, THERE'S NO WAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> FASCINATING READ.