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[dramatic music] - Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour & Co.
Here is what's coming up.
[dramatic music] Facing the biggest surge of border crossings in 20 years, how will the Biden administration fix a chronically broken immigration system?
I asked former Department of Homeland Security official, Elizabeth Neumann, and... - For the first time, since we have reached such an agreement that has been overwhelmingly endorsed by the people.
That is a major, major progress.
[applause] - It's St. Patrick's day.
So we consider the Northern Ireland peace agreement through the legacy of Irish nationalist, John Hume and the intersection with Martin Luther King civil rights movement.
Then as we learn more about the tragic killings of Asian women in Atlanta, our Michel Martin speaks with basketball player, Jeremy Lin, outspoken critic of anti-Asian racism.
[dramatic music] - [Reporter] Amanpour & Co. is made possible by the Anderson family fund, Sue and Edgar Wachenheim, III, the Cheryl and Phillip Milstein family, Candace King Weir, the Straus Family Foundation Bernard and Denise Schwartz, Jeffrey Katz, and Beth Rogers.
Additional support provided by these funders and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.
Thank you.
- Welcome to the program everyone I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
The Biden administration faces the largest surge of migrants the US has seen in 20 years after border patrol apprehended nearly a hundred thousand asylum seekers in February including about 10,000 unaccompanied minors.
And so president Joe Biden has sent out this clear message.
- I can say quite clearly, don't come.
And what we're in the process of getting set up and it's not gonna take a whole long time is to be able to apply for asylum in place.
So don't leave your town or city or community.
- President Biden says that his administration is committed to comprehensive reform and an immigration system that is safe, orderly, and humane but even Democrats admit that will be difficult to achieve with opposition, both from Republicans and from their own policy.
In the meantime, what to do about people like this Honduran woman Sandra Caballero speaking from Tijuana.
- [speaks in foreign language] - [Reporter] I am seeking asylum.
And I ask the president with all my heart to help us, to assign people to help us, to help us with the opening of the border because we're here because we would like a better future for our children.
- Now, Elizabeth Neumann worked for the Homeland Security Department.
She was an assistant secretary there during the Trump administration and found his anti-immigrant rhetoric dangerous.
Now she leads the council on national security and immigration.
A group that believes bipartisan reform on this matter is one of America's most urgent priorities.
And she joins me now from Washington DC.
Welcome to the program.
So can I start by asking you what you make of president Biden's appeal?
Please, he said to those people who are trying to come to the US, stay don't leave your towns and villages.
Will that make a difference, do you think?
- You know, is an important clarification that he made so that we were unanimbigious, but unfortunately I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference because the cartels are masterful at selling a story of hope to desperate people who pay thousands of dollars to take a very dangerous journey.
And many of them don't even make it to our borders because they are killed are trafficked or abused in some way.
And they have done such a remarkable job at marketing.
And we found that even in the Trump administration in our efforts to try to message in the Central American countries not to come.
I mean, you couldn't imagine it a stronger messenger than the Trump administration, right?
It still didn't work.
The cartels are just that good at selling this false hope.
So it was important for him to do, but sadly that's not gonna solve our problem.
- And actually, as you say, the cartels, the smugglers are basically telling people lies saying that actually the Biden administration has flung the doors open.
So that's a real issue.
Can I ask you about what you think does need to happen?
Because there's clearly a humanitarian crisis.
You've got, we hear children, as we know, unaccompanied minors, we hear about children having to sleep in shifts because there's not enough space.
We hear about them not being able to take regular showers for days.
What needs practically and pragmatically to happen to take care of them at the moment?
- It is a desperate situation.
And I think that, unfortunately it gets overly politicized by fringe elements on either side of the political spectrum.
But the first and foremost responsibility, I mean these are kids, right?
Like these are kids that by definition are not accompanied by a parent or family member.
They are very vulnerable.
And the first priority has to be their security and then their wellbeing.
The process that the US government has set up usually the children are apprehended by the border patrol.
The standard is that they should not stay in a border patrol facility for longer than 72 hours because those facilities were not designed for children.
They were primarily built to handle the detention of adults and kids as, you know, need a different type of care.
And there's also a problem of scale or volume.
We have so many that it's overrunning the border patrol station.
So what you see the Biden ministration doing is rapidly standing up influx centers.
They're leveraging FEMA who's very good at doing logistics in a emergency situation.
I don't think anybody believes that this is the long-term solution.
We are dealing with both a seasonal migration pattern.
We have always seen an influx this time of year.
You're dealing with pent up demand from the pandemic.
The cartels have basically sent the signal that, hey, the pandemic is starting to wane.
So the borders are reopening.
So that's, there's a demand signal there that people think it's safe to come up and that's increasing the volume.
You also had two major hurricanes in Honduras this last year.
So there's other push factors at play that are driving people towards the border.
So we have to not only triage the current moment.
And I think the Biden administration is doing a good job with that, but we really have to start addressing both the medium and longterm issues at hand, in order to eventually get to a place where this is not happening anymore.
And that really requires Congress to act.
We have spent over 15 years as an executive branch, 15 years of executive branch attempts to try to address this problem.
Republican and Democrat administrations have tried to solve this from their set of authorities that they currently have.
It's not working.
About the only other thing that we haven't been able to do is have Congress Act and change some of the laws address some of these root causes that are driving people from the Central American countries and pulling people in to the United States.
We have to address those root causes.
But that is a really tough order when the Congress has not seemed to be able to do anything with compromise and bipartisanship, it really is going to require some rational, smart thinking and a commitment to actually doing something about the problem instead of using it for your political aims.
- Okay so I wanna get to that and I'll ask you specifically what sort of things need to be done in a perfect world.
If you could, you know, sweep around a magic wand, what would you talk?
But I want to first ask you, cause you talked about you know, besides politicizing it right now, the governor of Texas, obviously on that Mexican border has come out and lambasted the Biden administration for causing this influx which you say is expected and seasonal.
This is what Greg Abbott has said today.
- These sights are a direct result of President Biden's reckless open border policies that are causing a surge in border crossings and cartel activity.
The administration has yet to provide the answers that Texans deserve.
- Well, there you go.
Couldn't be much more political than that.
Reckless open door policy, et cetera, et cetera.
What should the Biden administration and Congress be doing?
And as you said, and we watched, it's dysfunctional over and over again from one administration to the other it's just back and forth, back and forth.
And there's nothing done in a proper permanent manner of reform.
What should actually happen if all sides, if everything was perfectly possible.
- So I'm from Texas.
So that used to be my governor and I respect the concerns that he is laying out.
So one of the things I would encourage the Biden administration to do is better explain to particularly the communities that are receiving these influx centers.
There's one going in in Dallas.
What are the security mechanisms that are in place for the individuals that are staying there to make sure that they stay within?
In Dallas it's at a convention center.
How are these individuals vetted?
It's 15 to 17 year old boys that are coming to Dallas.
That that is different than receiving a five to seven year old child, right?
So let's answer some of the community's concerns about how the children are cared for, how we make sure that they are secure, how we make sure that the parent or family member that is receiving them that they get placed with here in the United States that they're vetted to make sure they actually are the parent.
I think there are good answers, but they don't.
- In terms of the big legislative issue that we're talking about that you're calling for with your new organization some kind of bipartisan reform that solves America's perennial immigration dysfunction.
- Sure, those long-term solutions are extremely complex but here are a couple of ideas.
Immediately, we need the Biden administration to be asking for more resources.
They have got to hire more asylum officers and more immigration judges.
Because one of the key factors here is that people can come claim asylum.
And because it takes so long to process them they get to live here for years.
So that's a pull factor.
Asylum claims must be heard that is the right thing to do but we need to make sure that they're heard very quickly so that people that have basically, they don't actually have a legitimate claim.
There's a disincentive for them to even try.
Another thing that we have to address, and this is very long-term but we have to help the central American countries with the root causes that are driving people away from them.
It's economic insecurity.
And it's a very dangerous, it's one of the most violent places on earth with gang violence.
So we need to help them.
We're not going to dictate solutions but we need to invest and find ways for them to become the place where people don't need to flee.
So there are other things that I think the Biden administration has in their plan that we agree with.
We need Congress to pass changes to some of the way that the laws are constructed.
We need more resources to be devoted to the border infrastructure.
We think we can do more at ports of entry, with smart technology that would help us be able to catch people smuggling things across.
The bottom line is there had been multiple efforts to try to create a new immigration system with legal pathways so that people don't feel like they have to sneak across the border or break the law in order to get in.
We need to create those legal pathways and people feel like they have a shot at actually coming in here the right way instead of feeding into the cartels who are making tons of money off of this, by the way.
And in order to create this legal pathways we need Congress to act.
- Right, and in the meantime, it's important to get your perspective because you worked, as I said, assistant secretary of the DHS under the Trump administration.
You mentioned and we played what governor Greg Abbott just said but also I've heard today, a Texas attorney who's on the border, has been there many times.
She disputed the notion that it was a surge.
She said, as you have that this is expected at this time of year.
And she said the reason, or one of the reasons for the calamity of the overcrowding right now is because the Biden administration has not been able to yet put the systems in place that were completely gutted by the Trump administration.
So, I mean, how does that jive with your experience because they did gut so much of that, of that infrastructure.
- There, I think there's two factors at play.
There were changes in both policy and approach of the Trump administration that did impact the overall border infrastructure to be able to handle volumes like this, but it might not be as obvious for example asylum officers were... There was significant low morale among them during the Trump administration.
So many of them left.
So in order to hire and train somebody, it takes time.
- Why was that Elizabeth?
Elizabeth, can you explain that?
That's really interesting.
Why was that there's low morale?
- Well, there was a pressure on them to find ways to say no legally but as everybody knows within the law, I mean, when an asylum officer's job is in processing cases or in individuals, they're interviewing somebody and trying to see if their claim meets certain tests in order for them to move on to the next part of the system, the immigration judge.
And if you can outright dismiss them at the beginning of the process and send them home, the Trump team felt like that was, that sends a strong deterrent message.
Don't try to bring, you know, a fraudulent asylum claim.
Well, when you put pressure on officers to find the reasons to reject their claim usually the people that are drawn to that type of work have a bit of a humanitarian heart.
And I'm not suggesting that they don't want to also enforce the law but there was a lot of pressure on them to presume the worst of people.
And after four years of that, it really drains people.
So you did see those in both the refugee officer community and the asylee community have very low morale.
It's going to take awhile to hopefully hire back some of those that left and hire new people in order to handle the size of volume we anticipate.
But I think the other factor that hurt our infrastructure is the pandemic itself.
USCIS is fee funded.
We did not process any immigration benefits over the last year because of some of the Title 42 close the border.
And we didn't accept visa applications.
People weren't traveling here.
So no money was coming in.
And therefore that agency was underfunded.
They had to go to Congress just to be able to pay people's paychecks.
So that affected investments in IT, modernization, not exciting stuff, but really important to be able to do their work in an expedited manner.
So all of that takes time to get fixed.
I know that they're working on it very quickly, but it is gonna take some time because the infrastructure has suffered over the last few years.
And just to sort of build on what you've just talked about morale and infrastructure suffering.
As you know, the current secretary of Homeland, the Homeland Security Department, Alejandro Mayorkas, was questioned in Congress about and they kept just wanting him to say, this was a crisis.
The Biden administration won't say it's a crisis.
And this is one of the things he said in response.
- I will share with you how I define a crisis.
A crisis is when a nation is willing to rip a nine-year-old child out of the hands of his or her parent and separate that family to deter future migration.
That to me, is a humanitarian crisis.
- Would you agree with that?
Having served under the previous administration during that policy?
- Oh, I think that policy was horrible.
There was a complete misunderstanding of what the law allows versus what, pardon me for going there, but what God ordained.
I mean, God ordained the family and the government does not have the right to intervene and separate a child from a parent unless it's a very extreme circumstance of needing to protect the child.
And that was not the case.
They were trying to seek in their mind, they were very desperate to seek ways to get the numbers down and they thought it would have a strong deterrent effect.
So cruelty became their approach to deterrence.
I think many realized after the fact that that was a mistake, but clearly, it's a scar that the United States is bearing even today.
But I tend to agree with his statement that this isn't a crisis but it is an urgent situation that must be handled and it is complex and it takes time and it takes some smart technical execution.
Thankfully, we do have good men and women in the government that are helping to do that but it is gonna take time.
Now, before I let you go, I do actually have to ask you about the killings of Asian-American women in Atlanta.
We do not know and the president said, he's not gonna judge a motive until he hears from the justice department.
But what we can say is that it's directed against women.
Women were killed in a particular place where he knew women worked apparently.
Tell, because you work on these issues about extremism, white supremacy, and gender based violence is very closely linked to that.
How does it strike you in terms of the rise of these kinds of crimes?
And at the same time, the ADL has, you know, has put out a report today on the huge rise in hate crimes.
- First of all, it's very sad.
I have family in Atlanta.
My first thought was for them and hoping that everybody was safe.
It is just frightening.
If you were a woman or the particular community that was targeted, we don't know motive yet but there were a number of Asian women that were targeted.
And the Asian community in the United States has seen over 150% increase of hate crimes against them in the last year.
And there is academics and researchers have been able to show kind of a causal relationship between COVID-19 and people painting it as a China virus or the Wuhan flu or the Kong flu, or the Wuhan virus.
There is this connection, sadly between rhetoric that might even be used for humor but a lot of people were using it in as disparaging way, and individuals choosing to commit acts of violence.
This is not sadly a new trend for us in the United States.
Over the last five years, Donald Trump's rhetoric has been cited in over 50 cases of individuals committing hate crimes.
The news organization that studied that went back and looked to see if anybody committed a hate crime and cited Obama or Bush for their cause and why they felt they were justified, the answer is no.
Donald Trump uniquely is the only president that we know of that has said things that have ended up in court documentation as the reason why people commit hate crimes, and there is a a definite cause and effect here between him demonizing and dehumanizing marginalized groups of people and the hate crimes that they then face.
- Right, it's really interesting.
Thank you so much for your expertise, Elizabeth Neumann.
Thanks for joining us.
And we will have more on this issue later in the program but President Biden is marking St. Patrick's day today with a bright green White House fountain and with a virtual meeting with the Irish prime minister Micheal Martin to reaffirm their country's deep historic partnership and a shared commitment to the Good Friday peace agreement.
And on the hill, congressional friends of Ireland are hosting an event honoring the late John Hume the Nobel Laureate and Derry man who played a pivotal role in garnering US support for the peace process.
Hume frequently acknowledged that Martin Luther King Jr.
and the US civil rights movement inspired his campaign to end decades of bloodshed in Northern Ireland.
Joining me now to discuss are Martin Luther King, III, the son of the assassinated leader and US human rights advocate himself and also John Hume son, John Hume Jr.
Welcome both of you to the program, you know, given what we just discussed and how we just ended my last conversation about this terrible killing of people, Asian Americans in Atlanta, and we don't know exactly the motive but your fathers work was all about bridging the divides, bridging the gaps, trying to bring people together in their different countries.
Let me just ask you first John Hume Jr.
because of the celebrations around your father in St. Patrick's day, how do you see the legacy and how it applies to today?
- Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the show tonight.
And a very happy St Patrick's day to everyone from an unusually quiet Dublin tonight for the night considered, I think, you know, my father grew up in a very different world to the one I live in today.
And, you know, in the early 50s, late 50s and early 60s, when he was, you know, becoming an adult in Northern Ireland, it was a very, very different place.
Discrimination was widespread and, you know, minority Catholic community was, you know, it was a very dark place to be.
In my hometown of Derry, there was 80% male unemployment.
And, you know, the apparatus of government was very much controlled by the unionists minority for the unionists minority.
And that affected education, that affected access to jobs even getting a roof over your head.
What my father and an entire generation of community leaders learnt from the American civil rights movement is very much sort of, you know, at the core of non-violence and standing up for your community that's where they got their inspiration.
That's what led to the Northern Ireland civil rights movement you know, of the late 1960s.
And indeed you can see it throughout the history of Northern Ireland and you know what has led us to the much better place we're in today.
I mean, Dr. King may never have stepped foot on the island of Ireland, but you can see his handiwork, you can see his fingerprints.
You can see his genius in every single agreement that marked the evolution of Ireland over the last 50 years.
- And in fact, you can see the inspiration that your father took from him when he received his Nobel peace prize in 1999.
And he quoted Martin Luther King, let's just play this.
- Martin Luther king embodies for me the commitment to the ideals of a true humanism based on loving, not just your neighbors, but your enemies.
- So Martin Luther King, III, how do you celebrate this moment and realize how pivotal and influence, you know, the civil rights movement, your father was on struggles all over the world including of course, in Northern Ireland?
- Well, you know, when we talk about celebration I think we may have to pause briefly.
We certainly celebrate what our world has to some degree done but it clearly has not learned the message of non-violence that Gandhi talked about, that Mr. Mandela talked about, that John Hume talked about and so many others throughout our world.
We as a society are still at odds with each other and it begins with dignity and respect.
When you treat people the way that you want to be treated that is what the standard perhaps should be and many religious creeds doctrines say that but yet we as a human species have not learned that yet.
So somehow we have to continue to create that message.
In fact, in the United States, to some degree we created a culture of violence and have accepted it.
The tragedy yesterday here in Atlanta where eight people were killed.
And we don't know all the details yet but the eight women, well, almost all of them were women were killed and it happened to be Asian women, of course as was stated earlier.
Something is wrong in our society.
We are really a sick society and we've got to find a way to have some kind of medication to address it and to transform and to become what we really can become which is a society that respects all cultures that respects all ethnic groups, that respects all genders.
We are nowhere near where we need to be but certainly what John Hume exemplified, what my father, what Gandhi, what Mr. Mandela and many others have exemplified.
We someday can get to that point.
- Well, before I go back to John Hume I want to just follow up with you on that, because right after George Floyd was so brutally killed in public, we did have you on the program and you said back then that you hope what you felt obviously there was a very significant moment as it was but it could be a tipping point moment a turning point that could lead, you know, as you say the United States out of being the kind of sick country that you've just said.
Do you still think that nearly a year on?
- Oh, I certainly am always gonna be on the side of optimism and believing that certainly these the movements are not going anywhere just over the weekend was the year anniversary of the death of Breonna Taylor.
And there were demonstrations all over the country around that issue, people black and white, young and old, rich and poor, every ethnic group are coming together to say injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
I can't be what I ought to be until we all are what we ought to be.
And that, which is a quote of my father.
So my point is, yes, I am still very hopeful.
Although I know our nation is very divided.
It is still extraordinarily divided.
And unfortunately it takes time to work through this process.
And quite frankly, every time there has been a victory in the modern civil rights movement, there also is backlash.
And that's what we see from time to time this backlash emerging, but there are far more people of goodwill than there are people of ill will.
And I think with people of goodwill must come together as we saw in demonstrations and as we will continue to see.
Many of them are young people, which is so amazing to see that's where I derive inspiration.
Young people, I'm fortunate to have a daughter who's 12 years old who wants to be engaged in social justice.
And there are many, many more across our nation and our world.
- Well, that that's, you know, really important that you raise that because of course, that's kind of the mission statement of the John and Pat Hume Foundation.
John Hume, it's named for both your parents.
And part of the mission is to encourage and inspire the future generations of the quiet peacemakers.
Tell me a little bit more about what you hope, you know, what path you hope they will follow and what this will do this, this foundation?
- Yeah, I mean it is deliberately the John and Pat Hume Foundation because I think my mother played as much of a role in my dad's life's work as God himself did.
So I think that's important.
I think, you know, the foundation it's formation comes at important time, a pivotal time here in Ireland.
You know, we have two major problems facing Ireland today one being Brexit and the other being, you know, caused by many leaders for an immediate border pool.
And these two issues, you know, if my father was alive today he would be very, very worried.
We now have a situation where, you know, we solved a lot of these problems by stopping imposing the will of one society, one part of community upon another.
And that's really what we have to get back to here.
It is that respect for difference.
You know, the fact that, you know you are what you are by accident of birth.
And I think if I look at the foundation education is key to, was very much key to my dad and what he stood for.
Economic justice is just as important to social justice.
And, you know, by ensuring that people have a roof over their head the right to a decent job, and food on their table, you know you solve a lot of these problems and a lot of the social issues go away with them.
And I think that will be very much central to what the foundation will do.
- That's really interesting because of course for Martin Luther King Jr.
economic justice was the key to his I Have a Dream speech.
And, you know, you talk about differences and we may have been all born in different places but Martin Luther King, III your father also Nobel prize winner of course said, 'We may all have come on different ships, but we are in the same boat now.'
How do you see that playing out?
I mean, we talked about, you know, your optimism, but do you think America gets it that we're all in the same boat together?
Has the pandemic told them something?
- You know, I can only hope that it has.
And we saw a lot of people doing wonderful things coming together initially during the pandemic.
But we really must understand as a world community that for our survival, we need each other the whole world economy was put on pause because of this tragic pandemic that we are still trying to resolve.
And although we seem to be making progress we've got a long way to go, and it's gonna take time to rebuild many of the businesses.
Some of them are gone forever.
So I hope America and the world learned something from this.
And that is that human beings must learn how to coexist and support each other and lift each other up.
And not just in the United States but you know, our destinies really are tied together as my father talked about in so many ways whether it's economics, whether it is, you know, in this nation, we talk about often if a person is able to feed themselves and their families and take care of themselves they've reached a certain thing that basically should be normal.
But unfortunately that is not the normal for many.
And fortunately the Democratic party passed the $1.9 trillion stimulus package and people are getting checks as we speak while they are not enough to address all issues, it is a start.
And I think the government unfortunately is gonna have to do more to help bring our economy back.
And hopefully some of that helps stimulate the world economy, because again we're all tied together and we need to work together to move our planet really in a forward direction.
- And finally to John Hume, your late father was pivotal in getting the US to sign off on, you know, the whole you know, rapprochement between the parties that led to the agreement in Northern Ireland.
And he was very clear about what he demanded from the US particularly the fundraising for the IRA, the violent nature of the Republican movement.
Just give us, remind us a little and he's being honored in Congress, today as we said along with Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton who were there pivotal in the Good Friday agreement.
- So, you know, my dad often told the story about, you know, in 1972 in Derry, when you know, it was a crazy, crazy place.
And a phone call came through from Ted Kennedy who happened to be in Germany at the time.
And he wanted a briefing from dad as to what was happening in Northern Ireland.
And dad, once he realized that this wasn't someone pulling his leg, he had to go, he had to borrow the money for the flights.
He went to the credit union, the people's bank, he borrowed the money.
He went to Bonn.
He sat in the ambassador's office for two hours.
I think it was with Senator Kennedy.
And after that float, a whole new narrative on Northern Ireland in the US led by people like Ted Kennedy, Tip O'Neill, Bill, and Hillary Clinton.
And today led by people like Richie Neal and Nancy Pelosi.
Without their help, without a doubt, we would never have made the progress that we have over the last, you know, since 1972.
Without their direct intervention and their vigilance, I think, you know, we would be in a very, very different place.
And, you know, today's St Patrick's day.
I think, you know, the people here in Ireland owe a great deal of gratitude to those American leaders over the years who made such an effort on our behalf.
- It's a great story, John Hume, Jr.
and Martin Luther King, III, thank you both very much for joining us on this St. Patrick's day.
And a documentary called In The Name of Peace, John Hume in America will be airing on PBS tonight.
Now, in the wake of the mass shootings in Atlanta that we were talking about in which eight people including six Asian women were killed our next guest, professional basketball player, Jeremy Lin has reacted.
He is tweeted, this is so heartbreaking, praying for our world.
To my Asian American family, please take time to grieve but know that you are loved, seen and important.
Now, while the suspect's motive, as we said is still unclear.
Lin is no stranger to the anti-Asian racism that's been on the rise since the pandemic began and the player is best known for generating the phrase Linsanity after he unexpectedly led a winning turnaround with the New York Knicks back in 2012 just before the deadly attack he spoke with our Michel Martin about racism in sports.
This report is part of Exploring Hate, our ongoing series on anti-semitism, racism and extremism.
- Jeremy Lin, thank you so much for joining us.
- Thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
- You know, unfortunately you and I are speaking now at a time when there has been a surge of hate crimes and abusive incidents aimed at people of Asian descent.
You have spoken out over the years, but if this seems like this has kind of pushed you into the forefront into a world that you previously had not you hadn't run away from it but it seems like you've been really more outspoken off late.
I wonder why that is, is that something you've chosen or are you think that's just something that's chosen you?
- I think it's just the evolution of who I am.
And to be honest, I did run from it when we last spoke and I didn't want to be known as the token Asian or the Asian on the basketball court.
I wanted to be respected as a great basketball player period, end of sentence.
And so after I went through Linsanity there's a lot of things that have happened and I didn't understand what was happening at the time.
I couldn't process everything with how fast it was coming.
I couldn't understand and articulate the underlying issues that we have seen whether it's the model, minority or the bamboo ceiling or all these different things about how Asian Americans and Asians in general have kind of just become whatever the people in power have kind of wanted us to become and to stay silent over certain issues.
And so, and to be, you know, good immigrants in other situations.
And so what I've kind of seen is through the education process of my experiences and just life, that man there's a lot of things that I didn't understand when I last spoke to you.
And I definitely didn't understand during the insanity during that stretch of time.
And so I think it's just my evolution to be able to say like, hey, me being 32 years old towards the tail end of my career, it's not about me as a basketball player as much or anything it's, you know, you think about, okay, what do you want to do?
Every player, every person kind of gets to that point where at some point it becomes about the next generation, right?
Or it should become about the next generation because we've had so many people come before us that allowed us to live the life that we're living today.
And so for me, it's understanding, okay, my niece, my nephew, my future kids, what kind of environment what kind of society will they be growing up in?
How can I contribute to that?
And that's kind of the evolution of it.
- You've been in the news recently because you shared that during a game you're currently playing with the G league and that somebody calls you what is clearly intended as a slur, somebody yelled, you know, coronavirus at you or maybe they said this under their breath in a way.
Tell us how you chose to deal with this.
First of all, you did disclose this to the leak but you haven't disclosed the name of the person who said this to you.
Tell us a little bit more about how you chose to deal with this and why?
- You know, at first I wrestled a lot with whether to say anything about it or not and kind of sat on it for a week or so and kind of chatted with my family and my friends.
And we'd talk about it in relation to everything else that has been going on.
And again to me, it's not about why experience because that is, you know, nothing compared to what we're seeing right now is we see people getting spit on, people getting robbed, people getting assaulted.
We see people getting killed, burned, stabbed.
I mean, we're seeing all of that all the time.
You know, we're seeing other people who come to the defense of other Asian Americans or other Asians, and then they get assaulted or they get injured.
And so we're seeing a lot of stuff right now and that is the real issue that I wanted to bring awareness around.
And, you know, me in discussing my own experience was not to compare what other people are going through but to say that nobody is immune to this and that we're all as Asian-Americans, we're all hurting and we're all being, you know, targeted.
The reason why I didn't want to talk about who it was or going to the specifics of that is because kind of the overarching principle or the bedrock, the foundation of what I'm trying to say is that we need to have love and empathy and compassion for each other.
And if, you know, if I come out and try to take somebody down or burn somebody or get 'justice' or what I feel like is right, and by hurting somebody else, I don't think that that builds on what I'm trying to do.
I think that's a hypocritical message.
And so, you know, for me, it's really about, hey, how can we educate more people about what's going on and then how we can change to be better and how we can stop this violence.
And that's really the heart of what I'm trying to say.
- I do have to say though, that it's my recollection but this is not the first time you've experienced this.
I mean, this unfortunately has been part of your experience in basketball.
The Corona virus thing is new, but the experience of being targeted because of your ethnicity is not new.
So what I'm asking you is, as a kid obviously, a lot of this stuff is thrown at you.
How did you understand it then?
And do you think something's changed to where you think just people just people in general and you in particular aren't just willing to tolerate it anymore?
- I do.
I agree.
I think so, right.
Like I think growing up, and that's the thing one of the things about the model minority, you know, they often say like, oh, okay, don't be the tallest weed because the tallest weed is gonna get cut.
Like, what does that mean?
It just means don't stand out, right.
And so, you know, when people say stuff to you it's like, all right, well, put your head down, work harder, be better and hope that it produces some type of results.
So for me personally, I, you know, to answer your question very specifically is when I was young, it was kind of like, you know what I'm going to work harder and I'm going to let my game speak and I'm gonna play better than you but I won't talk back.
And I'm gonna win the game, and I'm gonna walk off the court and be very polite.
Now it's more like, oh, you said something to me it's cool.
Like, I'm still gonna try to do the same thing.
I'm gonna try to turn it into something where I'm more focused.
I play better and all of that.
And I try to win the game, at the same time, like, I'm not as afraid to talk about it anymore.
I'm not as afraid to speak out about it because that's what we need.
And I think what we're seeing is people are getting fed up.
I'm getting fed up, everyone's getting fed up.
And so I agree in what you're saying is, hey, the experience has changed.
Society has changed.
The social climate has changed and we need to be more vocal.
We need to stand up and we need to start listening more and learning more from each other.
- I think at one point you said you were playing and it got to be too much.
I think you were in college at the time.
And I think one of your coaches who had played at Duke who's African-American that you were able to talk about this.
Do you remember anything he told you?
- Yeah, I do.
I remember him telling me, hey, look, I was playing.
You know, when I was playing, I was sitting on the sidewalk, eating my food in an away game and cars drove by and they were throwing stuff at me.
I remember being called the N word.
and I remember, you know, seeing people look at me with like bloodshot eyes, like malicious like because of my skin color.
And that's when I was just like, you know, coach Kenny Blake needs his name.
He's actually now the head coach at Howard which is awesome.
You know, doing historic things there, but, you know and that's when he taught me, you know, never let somebody get you outside of yourself.
Because when I was called that game, I was called repeatedly and the ref had heard it and didn't do anything.
And the opposing players were saying that to me.
And I just ended up self combusting and I played terrible and I was out of control and all that.
And that's when I had learned, like, I can't let what they meant to hurt me become even more of a crutch for myself by hurting myself.
And so that's what I, you know, that was one of the experiences that was really a turning point in my life.
- [indistinct] Okay now here's where I'm gonna ask you to be straight with me.
I mean, your sport is overwhelmingly African-American.
So would it be fair to say that some other people or maybe most of the people throwing these slurs at you are also Black are also people of color and are African-American, is that accurate?
- I would say, you know, in college my primary experience was more with Caucasians.
I would say in the NBA is been pretty split but I definitely will say like, look, my path especially as an Asian, or Asian-American doesn't matter how you, you know, how you want to spice it up is it is different, it is harder.
I don't look like the norm.
I don't, you know, and that's why I think for me, I was in many ways the first to ever do certain things, right?
Like you typically, you've seen a lot of players come over from China and they're, you know, typically all seven feet or above, they're centers, you know, and they're born overseas.
They come over here.
I don't look like that, I'm six foot three I'm a point guard born in LA, raised in California, speak English, and it's just different.
And so people haven't known what to do with that.
And I think for me, it's been an uphill climb and it continues to be and the doors that I have opened do I think that I have to work harder to open those doors and somebody else for sure.
But that's the life that we're in and that's part of it.
And so that's why I think it's, you know, it fuels me to try to be great and be great at the highest level and be the best you can be.
Because like you said, it means more than just the points and the wins and stats and things like that.
It goes beyond that.
- One of the things I followed you over the years is that you have made a point of sharing, you know, sometimes on YouTube and sometimes start up informally and different, you know, social media, you know, how you've gotten immersed in other people's experience.
It's like the life experiences of a lot of your African-American teammates, for example, I mean, you've talked a lot about that over the years but I'm wondering if you feel it's now time for some of that to come back for some of your teammates to understand a little bit of what your experience has been.
- Yeah, and I think that's what we're trying to do, right.
And I think that's what I'm trying to figure out is how do I be more vocal or tell the stories that need to be told to show people my side of the story and, you know, again, I don't think, and that's the thing is like the one thing that like I have seen through this whole thing is just everyone's so quick to compare, right?
Your experience to person X to person Y to person to Z, or this minority group to that minority group to that minority group.
Or, and it's like, why are we comparing, right?
- Do you feel like that's going on?
Do you feel like there's been like a competitive suffering contest going on?
Do you feel like that's some of that's happening?
- Yes. I think there's a lot of comparing.
I think there's a lot of gaslighting.
I think there's a lot of, oh, let me just discount that.
Or I know some, and at the end of the day like what we're looking at is we're hearing all different types of wrongs, stories of injustice, and we should all be focused on the root of the injustices versus which injustice was worse versus or like those types of things.
And even on social media I see a lot of people arguing, well, you know, okay the Asian community hasn't supported the Black community or a Black person did this to somebody else of minority, you know, of a different ethnicity or, and at the end of the day I think like, hey, we're kind of all missing the point if we're trying to go down that route.
Lets, like we need to band together, we need to figure it out.
We need to listen to each other and hear each other's stories.
And that can cause real change.
Like actually get to know something that people have these tough conversations, get to know people or read books or read authors or different things that are outside your sphere or your comfort zone.
And I can promise you that at the very least your perspective will be wide.
And even if you don't agree with everything.
- So what was the reaction when you first started speaking out particularly in response to this incident where somebody calls you a slur on the court?
Like, what was the response?
I understand that the league investigated, but what else, what happened?
- So actually within the G league bubble I was in a bubble, right?
So like we didn't come in and out, but within that bubble there was so much support, right?
There was a lot of support.
I'm talking about people I'd never met, opposing coaches opposing staff, opposing players.
There was a ton of support.
On social media, I think there's a whole bunch of back and forth and, you know, and that's why for me social media can be really toxic at times cause in the G league bubble, it was very, very supportive.
And I even got texts within other people in the NBA community that were really, really supportive.
Like I said, I got to talk to the G league.
I got to talk to the player directly and we talked a lot about other things.
And one of the things that stuck out the most to me was the other player was like, Hey, I didn't, like I went online and I didn't realize how much was happening to the Asian-American community because I've been in this bubble and we've been playing basketball nonstop every day.
Like, and to me, it was like, man, like, that's what I'm talking about.
Like, we're learning more about each other.
We're learning more about what's going on.
And that to me is really, really productive.
- Did he apologize?
- Yeah.
- He did apologize.
- Yeah, I mean, we talked it out and resolved it, you know, person to person.
I won't go into the details, you know.
- No just asking did you accept his apology?
- Yeah, of course.
- No, not of course.
I mean, you know, as you pointed out, some people would like to see something else and I just am interested in how you decided to receive this.
- I mean, for me, you know, it goes back to my faith to be honest and understanding that, you know, I've been forgiven, we've all been forgiven.
And so who am I to be about somebody else and not accept an apology or anything like that?
I don't think that, and that's always been my intention with a lot of different things or, you know, who I try to be.
I'm not perfect.
I don't always do it right, but I try to be that.
- I just wanted to talk more about why you think forgiveness is important.
And what do you think and what would you hope people would learn from this whole episode?
- You know, for me, forgiveness, you know, I'm a Christian.
And so I feel like Jesus died on the cross for my sins.
And forgiving me has given me a different level of an appreciation for the grace and the love of something that I didn't maybe deserve.
I definitely didn't deserve it.
And I feel like one of the things that I read through the Bible is that as Christians, we should be filled and appreciative of this love, where we have so much of this love that we're able to spread it to other people.
And I think that is the basis of everything that I try to do.
And how I view things now, does not mean that you know, forgiveness and the justice system, and what the, you know, judges or police or whatever, you know, like to me, like you can forgive.
And then, you know, the government or the justice system still has a job to do, right.
And so those things are like mutually exclusive.
And so what me, from what my standpoint of who I try to be as a human is, hey, I'm going to be wronged many times in my life but I'm also going to wrong a lot of people in my life as well.
And I hope that when the dust settles on everything and when people will talk things out that we get to a place of forgiveness because I think that is one of the most rewarding ways to live life.
It is very purposeful when you can accept your imperfections and somebody else's and continue to do life together.
- When you posted on this on social media the closing line was, are you listening?
Do you feel that people are listening?
- Yeah, I feel like more people are listening.
Is everybody listening?
No, but that's not the goal for me right now, right.
The goal is that some people are listening that more people are listening, the goal is that more people are talking, and I think that's being accomplished.
- And before we let you go, what's next for you?
What do you see in your future?
- I mean, I feel like, you know, I played really well in the GV bubble, and then I feel like I'm more than deserve a call up.
And so hopefully that comes and I'm able to kind of continue to be at the NBA platform and be at the NBA stage.
And from there, I feel like I've done a lot of things within my body and within my game that has allowed me to in my opinion, be where I feel like I'm at the best that I've ever been right now.
And so, you know, I think the best is yet to come and I'm excited about it.
And time will tell.
- Well, thank you again for talking with us.
It's been a delight to speak with you again.
- Well, thank you very much.
- Reflections from an important influencer and finally a worldwide exclusive interview with the man President Obama once called the most popular politician on earth, former Brazilian president Lula de Silva, tomorrow night on this program.
Fame for raising tens of millions of Brazilians out of poverty.
And back in the ring after the Supreme court analyses conviction for kickbacks and corruption.
Lula is lashing out as his successor Jair Bolsonaro for following the Trumpian pandemic playbook.
And he's making a direct appeal to President Biden to convene an emergency international G20 summit to provide vaccines to the poorest parts of the world.
Take a listen.
- [speaking foreign language] - [Reporter] You should see.
And I know that the US has vaccines in a surplus and that they're not gonna use all that vaccines and maybe that vaccine, who knows could be donated to Brazil or to other countries, even poorer than Brazil that cannot afford to buy the vaccine.
So, one suggestion that I would like to make to President Biden through your program is it's very important to call the G20 meeting urgently.
It's important to call the main leaders of the world and put around the table just one theme, one issue, vaccine, vaccine, and vaccine.
So the responsibility to the international leaders is a tremendous I'm asking to President Biden to do that because I don't believe in my government.
And so I couldn't ask for that for Trump but Biden is a breadth for democracy in the world.
- That strong appeal and the rest of my exclusive interview on tomorrow's program.
That's it for us tonight.
Remember, you can always follow me and the show on Twitter.
Thank you for watching Amanpour & Co. on PBS and join us again tomorrow night.
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