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>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP .
WE SHOULD BE PARTNERS, NOT RIVALS, THE WORDS FROM PRESIDENT XI TO TRUMP, CHALLENGES REMAIN.
UNCERTAINTY IN WESTMINSTER , UK PRIME MINISTER WARNS ANY LEADERSHIP CHALLENGE WOULD PLUNGE THE COUNTRY INTO CHAOS.
HOW DID WE GET HERE ?
WE SPEAK WITH A JOURNALIST.
> >> WHEN COMPANIES RUN THE COURSE, AN AUTHOR JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLAIN HOW THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AMERICANS UNTHINKINGLY AGREED TO ON A DAILY BASIS ARE SHIELDING CORPORATIONS FROM ACCOUNTABILITY.
>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> A WARM WELCOME , I AM SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, A DAY OF PAGEANTRY AND FLATTERY IN BEIJING, ON HIS FIRST TRIP TO CHINA IN NEARLY A DECADE, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS GREETED BY CHEERING CROWDS AT THE RED CARPET, AND SOME WARM WORDS IN TRANSLATION FROM CHINESE LEADER XI .
>> PRESIDENT TRUMP AND I HAVE ENOUGH CONVERSATIONS ON INTERNATIONAL AND REGIONAL DYNAMICS, WE BOTH BELIEVE THAT THE CHINA-U.
S. RELATIONSHIP IS THE MOST IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP IN THE WORLD.
WE MUST MAKE IT WORK AND NEVER MESS IT UP.
BOTH CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES STANDS TO GAIN FROM COOPERATION AND LOSE FROM CONFRONTATION.
OUR TWO COUNTRIES SHOULD BE PARTNERS RATHER THAN RIVALS .
>> DONALD TRUMP SOUNDED POSITIVE AND CONFIRMED HE WILL HOST XI IN DC.
>> SUCH RESPECT FOR CHINA , THE JOB YOU HAVE DONE, YOU ARE A GREAT LEADER, I SAY TO EVERYBODY ONLY THE TOP ARE HERE TODAY TO PAY RESPECTS TO YOU AND TO CHINA .
IN ORDER TO BE WITH YOU, HONOR TO BE YOUR FRIEND.
>> HOW THE PRESIDENT USED TO SPEAK OF BEIJING, THIS U. S. DELEGATION IS A WHO'S WHO OF BIG TECH, FOR THEM AND THE WORLD , A LOT AT STAKE, TARA TENSIONS, AI RACE, WAR WITH IRAN ON THE TABLE WITH A STARK WARNING FROM AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON TAIWAN, HE SAID, IF THE ISSUE IS MISHANDLED IT COULD LEAD TO A HIGHLY DANGEROUS SITUATION.
WHAT IS THE U. S. HOPING TO GET OUT OF THIS SUMMIT, AND WHAT ARE THE RISKS AND THE OPPORTUNITIES?
A TOP OFFICIAL ON CHINA AND TAIWAN FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN'S NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL AND SENIOR FELLOW ON THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS AND JOINS THE PROGRAM FROM WASHINGTON.
GOOD TO SEE YOU AS WE TRY TO PARSE THIS TRIP.
IF WE ARE THINKING ABOUT THAT HISTORICAL ARC OF U. S.
-CHINA RELATIONS, HOW BIG OF A DEAL IS THIS SUMMIT ?
COULD IT BE AN INFLECTION POINT OR MORE OF A CONTINUUM ?
>> THIS IS THE FIRST IN PERSON MEETING IN BEIJING BETWEEN THE TWO PRESIDENTS IN NINE YEARS, THE SUMMIT BETWEEN THE U. S. AND CHINESE PRESIDENT REQUIRES OUR ATTENTION, THIS SUMMIT HAS BEEN HEAVIER ON SYMBOLISM THAN ON SUBSTANCE IN PART BECAUSE THE ISSUES THAT DIVIDE THE TWO COUNTRIES ARE VERY HARD TO RESOLVE QUICKLY.
WE SAW PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS TAKEN WITH THE WELCOME HE RECEIVED AND WE SAW PRESIDENT XI SHOWED RESPECT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND VICE VERSA , ONE OF THE HARD ISSUES FROM TAIWAN TO TRADE TO TECHNOLOGY AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND IRAN, NOT CLEAR THESE COUNTRIES ARE SEEING EYE TO EYE, CONTINUITY IN A QUIET MOMENT IN THE RELATIONSHIP?
PROBABLY.
OVER THIS YEAR WILL BE CRITICAL, AT LEAST THREE MORE MEETINGS BETWEEN THESE TWO LEADERS OVER 2026 .
>> THE STAKES ARE SO HIGH FOR THESE COUNTRIES AND THE WORLD.
DONALD TRUMP LAST VISITED CHINA IN 2017.
WHAT HAS CHANGED IN THE RELATIONSHIP SINCE THEN ?
>> THE BIGGEST CHANGE IS CHINA FEELS FAR MORE CONFIDENT TODAY THAN IT DID IN 2017.
A CHINA THAT LAST YEAR FELT IT DECISIVELY WON A TRADE WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES , LET'S NOT FORGET THE U. S. INCREASED TARIFFS ON CHINA TO 145% LAST YEAR AND CHINA RESPONDED BY RESTRICTING THE FLOW OF RARE MINERALS IN WHICH MADE HER -- AMERICAN MANUFACTURING DEPENDS ON THAT WOULD'VE BEEN A DEVASTATING BLOW TO THE U. S. ECONOMY AND PRESIDENT TRUMP DID FOLD AND PULL DOWN THE TARIFF RATES AND PURSUED A MUCH MORE STABLE, EVEN CONCILIATORY RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA TO MAKE UP FOR THAT MOMENT IN THE TRADE WERE .
SINCE THEN, BEIJING HAS FELT IT AS THE WIND IN THE SALES, THE EAST IS RISING AND THE WEST IS DECLINING, TO QUOTE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY TEXT, THAT IS THE BIGGEST CHANGE AND CHINA FEELS IT HAS THE LEVERAGE TO FULLY WITHSTAND U. S. PRESSURE AND RETURN WITH PRESSURE OF ITS OWN .
THE QUESTION WILL BE, HOW LONG WILL THIS FRAGILE TRUCE BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES CONTINUE?
THERE ARE SOME SIGNS BOTH LEADERS WANTED TO CONTINUE FOR LONGER AND BEIJING IS HOPING TO BECKON THE STABILITY NOT JUST FOR THE REST OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BUT SET THIS AS A NEW BASELINE FOR BEYOND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OF.
WHAT THAT MEANS FOR AMERICANS, HARDER FOR WASHINGTON TO TAKE STEPS THAT MAY BE A DEFENSE OF AMERICA ECONOMIC OR TECHNOLOGY INTEREST IF BEIJING IS PERCEIVED TO HAVE THE UPPER HAND .
>> THAT LEVERAGES BE KEPT IN TERMS OF CHINA HAVING IT, WHAT COULD THEY USE THAT LEVERAGE TO ACHIEVE IN THE SUMMIT AND BEYOND ?
>> THE PURPOSE OF THE LEVERAGE RIGHT NOW IS TO GET THE U. S. TO BACK OFF.
WHAT THE OBJECTIVE OF PRESIDENT XI, NONE OF US ARE IN HIS HEAD AND SPECULATING, ONE OF HIS KEY OBJECTIVES IS TO MAINTAIN STABLE U. S.
-CHINA RELATIONSHIP AND THAT PARTICULARLY APPLIES TO THE ECONOMIC, TECHNOLOGY , TRADE QUESTIONS AND PRESIDENT TREADWELL DOES NOT WANT TO SEE THE U. S. INCREASED TARIFFS ON CHINA AND WANTS TO SELL GOODS TO THE UNITED STATES EVEN IF THEY SOMETIMES PUT AMERICAN WORKERS AT RISK AND BUSINESSES, HE WOULD LIKE TO ABSORB THEM, TECHNOLOGY, HE WOULD LIKE TO SEE AMERICAN TECHNOLOGY CONTINUE TO FLOW INTO CHINA IN WAYS THAT WILL SUPPORT THE CHINESE DEVELOPMENT BUT HIS ABILITY TO CLIMB THE VALUE CHAIN IN KEY INDUSTRIES, PUT THAT TOGETHER, HE IS LOOKING FOR TIME, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS THE SAME THING ON THE QUESTION OF THE MOMENT, BOTH SIDES WANT TO BUY TIME, WHO WILL SPEND IT BETTER ?
>> PRESIDENT TREADWELL ARGUABLY THE NEWSWORTHY COMPONENT OF THE FIRST DATE WAS WHEN HE WORKED PRESIDENT TRUMP ANY MISHANDLING OF TAIWAN COULD LEAD TO AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS SITUATION.
SO MUCH TALK HAS BEEN ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE U. S. WILL CHANGE ITS POLICY TOWARDS TAIWAN .
WHAT LEVERAGE DOES CHINA HAVE NOW?
I WANT TO KNOW, MARCO RUBIO SAID U. S. POLICY ON TAIWAN IS NOT CHANGED, THAT MAYBE THE PUBLIC POSTURE, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT BEHIND-THE-SCENES SOMETHING MAY BE GOING ON ON TAIWAN?
>> WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING BEHIND THE SCENES, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ASKED, DID YOU DISCUSS TAIWAN AND HE DID NOT ANSWER, WHEN THE SECRETARY WAS ASKED WHAT WILL BE TALKED ABOUT THE NEXT DAY, THIS IS ONLY THE FIRST DAY AND THERE WILL BE A SECOND DAY, HE INDICATED THERE MAY BE MORE CONVERSATIONS ON TAIWAN.
BEIJING HAS A FEW GOALS ON TAIWAN, THEY WANT PRESIDENT TRUMP TO CHANGE U. S.
-TAIWAN POLICY, THEY WANT THE U. S. TO BASICALLY AGREE TO NEGOTIATE , THE QUANTITY AND QUALITY AND COMPOSITION OF ARMS SALES TO TAIWAN WITH CHINA IN ADVANCE WHICH WOULD BE A BIG CHANGE FROM POLICY OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS AND MAKE IT HARDER FOR THE U. S. TO SUPPORT TAIWAN'S ABILITY TO DEFEND ITSELF.
THOSE ARE TWO BIG THINGS WE SUSPECT HAVE BEEN ON THE AGENDA OF XI, WHAT DEGREE THEY HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED , WE DO NOT KNOW YET, WHAT IS INTERESTING, IF YOU LOOK AT THE U. S. READOUTS OF THE LAST INTERACTIONS BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT XI, YOU OFTEN SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP TALK ABOUT WHAT IS ON HIS MIND, ECONOMICS, TECHNOLOGY, IRAN, PRESIDENT XI WILL EMPHASIZE TAIWAN IN THIS CONTEXT AND TALK MORE ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF TAIWAN .
THIS IS THE TOP ISSUE AND MOST INTIMATE ISSUE, A WAR AND PEACE ISSUE, ON THE AGENDA BUT WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WAS SAID.
>> THAT DOES LEAD US TO THE TASK AT HAND, TRYING TO FIND SOME RESOLUTION IN IRAN.
HOW DOES CHINA REGARD THIS CONFLICT ?
DO YOU THINK IT WILL ACTUALLY SHAPE THE OUTCOME OF WHAT WE WILL SEE IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS OR MONTHS?
>> I THINK THAT CHINA LOOKS AT THIS CONFLICT AS AN OWN GOAL FOR UNITED STATES, THE U. S. HAS ONCE AGAIN PUT ITSELF INTO A MIDDLE EAST WHERE IT IS EXPANDING LARGE QUANTITIES OF MUNITIONS TO DETER CHINA AND THE TAIWAN STRAIT, AND SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY TO DO SO AND THE NET RESULT MAY BE THAT THE U. S. LOSES THE ABILITY TO STOP IRAN FROM THROTTLING TRADE IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND WE ARE WORSE OFF THAN WE WERE, THE CHINESE NOTE AND VENEZUELA AND IRAN SHOW THIS, U. S. MILITARY POWER PROJECTION AROUND THE WORLD IS UNMATCHED, THE U. S. HAS INCREDIBLE CAPABILITY BUT A MILITARY OPERATIONAL VICTORY CAN BE ACCOMPANIED BY A STRATEGIC DEFEAT.
WHAT DOES PRESIDENT TRUMP WANT FROM CHINA ON IRAN?
CHINA IS THE PURCHASER OF IRANIAN OIL AND HE WANTS CHINA TO PURCHASE LESS OF IT AND MAYBE NONE OF IT , HE WOULD LIKE IRAN TO NOT RECEIVE CHINESE DUAL USE ITEMS THAT SUPPORT MILITARY WEAPONS AND REPORTING YESTERDAY INDICATING THAT CHINA IS LOOKING FOR WAYS TO DELIVER WEAPONS TO IRAN PERHAPS THROUGH COVERT IF NOT OVER CHANNELS AND TO THIRD COUNTRIES, THAT WOULD BE USED AGAINST AMERICAN FORCES AND I'M SURE THESE ISSUES WERE DISCUSSED BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS AND WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS IS THE CHINESE HELP IN SOLVING THIS ISSUE .
FROM THE CHINESE PERSPECTIVE, A LONG- TERM PROBLEM TO HAVE THE STRATA FORM IS CLOSED BUT IN THE NEAR TERM THEY CAN WEATHER IT, NOT EXCITED TO HELP THE UNITED STATES OUT OF THIS QUAGMIRE.
>> THEY MAY BE WORKING AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.
I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO MARCO RUBIO WHEN HE SAID THIS BEFORE THE TRIP IN TERMS OF IRAN .
>> OF ALL THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, COLONIES ARE MELTING DOWN BECAUSE OF THIS AND THEY WILL BE BUYING LESS CHINESE PRODUCT AND CHINESE EXPORTS WILL DROP PRECIPITOUSLY, IT IS IN THEIR INTEREST TO RESOLVE THIS AND WE HOPE TO CONVINCE THEM TO PLAY A MORE ACTIVE ROLE IN GETTING IRAN TO WALK AWAY FROM WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND TRYING TO DO NOW IN THE PERSIAN GULF.
>> I AM NOT SURE WHAT HE SAID TRANSLATES TO WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE HERE AND NOW IN CHINA BUT WHAT WAS YOUR TAKE AWAY ?
>> THE U. S. HAS A LONG HISTORY OF TELLING CHINA WHAT IS IN HIS INTEREST, ESPECIALLY WITH REGIONAL HOTSPOTS LIKE IRAN AND NORTH KOREA, DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK OUT AND NOT SURE IT WILL WORK OUT AS QUICKLY THIS TIME, HE IS RIGHT, CHINA DOES SUFFER, IT WILL SUFFER IF THERE WAS A GLOBAL RECESSION AND IF COUNTRIES ARE BUYING CHINESE GOODS AND SUFFER IF ENERGY PRICES STAY HIGH, WE CANNOT FORGET THAT CHINA HAS A 1.
2 TO 1.
4 BILLION BARRELS STOCKPILE OF CRUDE OIL IMPORTS ABOUT 5 MILLION BARRELS PER DAY FROM THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, THEY HAVE A LOT OF TIME THEY CAN USE TO WATCH AND SEE US FLOUNDER BEFORE THEY FACE SERIOUS PROBLEMS.
EVEN THEN, THEY MAY BE ABLE TO ADJUST THOSE PROBLEMS BY PAYING MORE FOR OIL OR USING OTHER WAYS TO GET AROUND CONSUMPTION .
IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT CHINA IS FEELING THE HEAT THE WAY OTHER ECONOMIES IN THE REGION WITH LESS ROBUST STOCKPILES AND MORE DEPENDENCE ON CRUDE ARE FEELING THE HEAT, IF THEY THINK THE CONFLICT IS PUTTING U. S. AT A DISADVANTAGE AND DISTRACTING US FROM CHINA, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE AGENDA TO SEE IF STOP BY QUICKLY.
>> IT IS STAGGERING, EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAD ACHIEVED IN TERMS OF HAVING THE STOCKPILES FOR THIS SUCH CONFLICT.
I WANT TO GET TO THE TECH BILLIONAIRES AND THE TREASURY SECRETARY TALKED ABOUT THE AGREEMENT ON AI.
>> WE ARE GOING TO BE DISCUSSING AI GUARDRAILS WITH THE CHINESE, THE CHINESE ARE SUBSTANTIALLY BEHIND US, BUT THEY HAVE A VERY ADVANCED AI INDUSTRY HERE.
THE TWO AI SUPERPOWERS WILL START TALKING, WE WILL SET UP A PROTOCOL IN TERMS OF , HOW DO WE GO FORWARD WITH BEST PRACTICES FOR AI TO MAKE SURE NONSTATE ACTORS DO NOT GET A HOLD OF THESE MODELS.
>> WHAT KIND OF AI GUARDRAILS ARE REALLY REALISTIC ?
YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE ROOM , WHAT DISCUSSIONS WERE YOU A PARTY TO WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?
>> IN 2023 , WE PUSHED FOR AN AI DIALOGUE WITH BEIJING AND PUSHED TO BASICALLY SURE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WOULD NEVER BE CONNECTED TO NUCLEAR COMMAND AND CONTROL, SEEMS OBVIOUS THAT WE DID NOT HAVE AN AGREEMENT ON THAT BASIC PRINCIPLE AND WE PUSH FOR THAT AND GOT BOTH OF THOSE THINGS, THE LATTER WAS ANNOUNCED IN 2024.
WHAT WE HEARD FROM THE CHINESE SIDE WAS THAT THEY ARE INTERESTED IN DIALOGUE AND THE SECRETARY MENTIONED , THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTS A DIALOGUE, WE HAVE NOT HAD ONE SINCE 2024 AND ABOUT TIME GIVEN THE LEAPFROG CAPABILITIES THESE MODELS HAVE MADE, ESPECIALLY THE ONE FROM ANTHROPIC, A CYBER MASTER KEY OF NETWORKS AROUND THE WORLD .
THERE IS A NEED FOR DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES, THIS IS WHERE I THINK PUBLIC PRESSURE WILL BE IMPORTANT, WILL THESE DIALOGUE MECHANISMS MATTER?
IN 2024, NOT THE CASE THAT CHINA SET THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO THE DIALOGUE, THEY SIT SEDER DIPLOMATS, IF THEY WANT TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY, THEY WILL HAVE TO CHANGE THE PARTICIPATION THAT THEY SENT TO A DIALOGUE ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND PICK UP THE PHONE IF THERE IS A CRISIS INVOLVING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, WHICH THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS THEY WANT TO SET UP A CRISIS MECHANISM BOTH SIDES CAN USE, THAT WILL TAKE TIME, IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF TRUST AND WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT, I THINK IT IS GOOD SIDE BOTH SIDES ARE TALKING ABOUT AI, AS THE SECRETARY NOTED, U. S. AND CHINA ARE THE TWO AI SUPERPOWERS AND THEY MATTER THE MOST WHEN IT COMES TO FIGURING OUT HOW TO GOVERN THIS TECHNOLOGY.
>> THAT WOULD MAKE US FEEL A LITTLE BIT BETTER AND THE FACT THAT IT IS LIKELY NOT IN THE CHINESE INTEREST TO HAVE THIS GO POORLY FOR THEM AS WELL.
COOPERATION IS LIKELY NEEDED.
I WANT TO TURN TO A TOPIC, DONALD TRUMP SAID HE WILL DISCUSS THE CASE OF THE JAILED CHINESE MEDIA EXECUTIVE WITH PRESIDENT XI BUT IT SEEMS THAT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS DROPPED ANY PRETENSE OF PRESSURING CHINA ON HUMAN RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE REPRESSION OF UIGHURS.
IS THE NEW FACE OF U. S.
-CHINA RELATIONS OVER IN THE SENSE THAT THIS RELATIONSHIP IS NOW FULLY TRANSACTIONAL?
THERE IS NO PRETENSE.
NOT LIKE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD A LOT OF LUCK ON THAT .
>> THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DID MAKE HUMAN RIGHTS A PRIORITY INCLUDING HONG KONG, BUT A LOT OF THE WORK WAS DONE BY CONGRESS AND THE STAFF OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND CABINET, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS RUMORED TO HAVE TOLD PRESIDENT XI TO BUILD INTERNMENT CAMPS , ON HONG KONG HE SAID I WILL STAND WITH PRESIDENT XI, NOT WITH THE PEOPLE, I AM PARAPHRASING.
NOT SURE IT IS HIGH ON HIS LIST BUT THE PRESIDENT DOES VIEW HUMAN RIGHTS IN TRANSACTIONAL TERMS AND SEES THE POSSIBILITY OF GETTING A FEW FOLKS OUT LIKE THE BILLIONAIRE MEDIA TYCOON WHO WAS IMPRISONED IN HONG KONG, GIVEN A LIFE SENTENCE FOR DOING NOTHING MORE THAN EXPRESSING HIS VIEWS AND SUPPORTING OTHERS IN DOING THE SAME.
THAT CASE WITH A FEW OTHER CASES ARE PROBABLY GOING TO BE PAST THE CHINESE SIDE WITH A PIECE OF PAPER YOU GIVE TO THEM AND THERE WAS A MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT.
MY HOPE AND THE PRESIDENTS HOPE MAY BE THAT THIS IS A INSTANCE OF DEALMAKING WHERE YOU GET A FEW OF THESE FOLKS OUT AS A SHOW OF GOOD FAITH.
COMPREHENSIVE SYSTEMATIC PRESSURE ON CHINA GIVEN THE HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD IS CHALLENGING GIVEN HOW STRONG CHINA IS TODAY , THE U. S. COULD NOT GET CHINA TO CHANGE THE BEHAVIOR ON ECONOMIC PRIORITIES WHICH ARE VERY IMPORTANT FOR AMERICANS AND AMERICAN COMPANIES, MUCH HARDER TO DO IT ON HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA WHERE WE HAVE LESS DIRECT LEVERAGE.
>> INTERESTING YOU SAY THAT, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD SOME SUCCESS IN THESE KIND OF HUMAN RIGHTS THINGS BUT THAT HAS A MORE TRANSACTIONAL CHARACTER.
MICHAEL, A FORMER CANADIAN DIPLOMAT, ARBITRARILY TAKEN FOUR YEARS IN CHINA, HE WROTE IN THE LAST WEEK, THIS IS A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT AND DOES COUPLE THAT THEORY WITH THE FACT THAT THE LOSS OF ANY KIND OF COMMERCIAL LEVERAGE AGAINST CHINA MEANS THERE WILL BE VIRTUALLY NO LEVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO HUMAN RIGHTS .
HE IS SAYING THAT WESTERN COUNTRIES SHOULD HAVE A COALITION TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE MORE STRENGTH AGAINST MERCANTILISM AND THE DANGERS THAT MAY COME WITH IT, LIKE ARBITRARY DETENTION.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
EVEN FROM WHEN YOU WERE WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THINGS SEEM TO HAVE CHANGED WITH CHINA IN WARP SPEED.
>> CHINA IS VERY POWERFUL.
A DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE, FORMER THE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE NEED FOR ALLIES TO COME TOGETHER, CHINA NOW SKILLS THE U. S. IN A LOT OF METRICS, TWO TIMES AMERICAN MANUFACTURING, 30% BIGGER THAN OUR ECONOMY AND PURCHASING POWER.
PRODUCES THREE TIMES THE POWER THE U. S. PRODUCES, WE COULD GO DOWN THE LIST.
THE U. S. , OUR ABILITY TO COMPETE IS DRIVEN BY CREATING SCALE WITH OUR ALLIES , IF CHINA NOW SKILLS AS WE SHOULD CREATE SCALE WITH OUR FRIENDS AND TOGETHER WE CAN OUT SCALE THEM, IF YOU DO THAT, LOOK AT EVERY METRIC, TRADE, DEFENSE SPENDING, TOP TRADING PARTNER OR SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATIONS, PATENTS, THAT GROUP OF COUNTRIES COMES OUT ON TOP.
WHAT WE NEED TO SEE IS A MORE HUMBLE AND MODEST AMERICA THAT UNDERSTANDS, IF YOU WANT TO ELABORATE ON THE ISSUES YOU CARE ABOUT, WHETHER HUMAN RIGHTS OR TRADE OR TECHNOLOGY, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, YOU CANNOT DO IT ALONE AS EFFECTIVELY AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN COMMON.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN SOME WAYS BY ALIENATING THESE ALLIES HAS LEFT ITSELF OPEN TO A WORLD WHERE CHINA CAN RUN THE FIELD AND AMERICA CANNOT KEEP UP WHICH IS THE RISK WE CURRENTLY FACE, WE CAN FIX IT BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE IT HAPPEN SOON.
>> CHINA ROLLED OUT THE RED CARPET FOR A LOT OF THE WESTERN LEADERS.
I FEEL LIKE I WAS IN THE ROOM SPEAKING TO YOU, THANK YOU, APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT.
> >> WE TURN TO THE UNITED KINGDOM AND ONCE AGAIN ENGULFED IN POLITICAL DRAMA, YOU REMEMBER THE CHAOS OF THE POSTGRADUATE YEARS WITH THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY TURNED THROUGH FOUR PRIME MINISTERS AND NOW IT IS THE RULING LABOUR PARTY WHO HAVE THEIR OWN ISSUES, THE PARTY OF KEIR STARMER PERFORM TERRIBLY IN THE LOCAL ELECTIONS LAST WEEK PROMPTING A GROWING COURSE FROM WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY CALLING FOR THE PRIME MINISTER TO STEP DOWN.
TODAY, THE DRAMA KICKED UP A NOTCH WITH HIS HEALTH SECRETARY RESIDING IN AN ATTEMPT TO TRIGGER AN ELECTION AND LABOR MP STANDING DOWN HOPING TO GIVE ANOTHER LEADERSHIP CONTENDER THE CHANCE TO REENTER PARLIAMENT, CURRENTLY THE MAYOR OF MANCHESTER, ALREADY A TOUGH TIME FOR THE COUNTRY AFTER BREXIT, TRAVELING WITH THE HIGH COST OF LIVING LEADING TO WIDESPREAD DISSATISFACTION.
JOINING US TO DISCUSS THIS IS A PROMINENT BRITISH JOURNALIST FORMALLY OF SKY NEWS AND THE BBC AND TOLD MOST OF THE POPULAR NEWS AGENTS PODCAST, WE WILL LEAN ON YOU TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS GOING ON.
THE HEALTH SECRETARY RESIGNED, SAYING , HE HAS LOST CONFIDENCE IN THE LEADERSHIP OF KEIR STARMER, SEEN BY MANY IS THE LEADING CHALLENGER BUT NOW WE HAVE THE MAYOR OF MANCHESTER TRYING TO ENTER THIS RACE.
WHAT IS GOING ON, WHAT DOES IT MEAN ?
WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE THE NEXT STEPS ARE?
>> IT MAKES AMERICAN POLITICS LOOK SIMPLE .
WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS, ONGOING CRISIS OF CONFIDENCE IN KEIR STARMER, WHY ?
WE HAVE LOCAL ELECTION AND NATIONAL ELECTION RESULTS IN THE UK LAST WEEK THAT WERE CATASTROPHIC FOR THE LABOUR PARTY AND TONS OF LABOUR MP SELECTED LESS THAN TWO YEARS AGO WARNING ABOUT , NOT ONLY THE IDEA THEY WOULD LOSE THEIR SEATS TO THE CONSERVATIVES, HAVING THE TRADITIONAL SWING OF THE PENDULUM, THAT IS THE NORMAL THING IN POLITICS, WORRIED ABOUT THE ENTIRE SYSTEM, ENTIRE CLOCK BEING SMASHED TO BITS IN THE FORM OF THE PIPE WAS, NIGEL FARAGE , WHO DID WELL IN COUNCIL AND LOCAL AREA AFTER LOCAL AREA IN THE ELECTIONS LAST WEEK, SWEEPING ALL BUT FOUR.
WHAT THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT IS KEIR STARMER DOES NOT HAVE THE POLITICAL CHANCE, POLITICAL VISION, IT WILL REALLY FIGURE BUT NOT A POLITICAL FIGURE, DESPISED BY A LOT OF THE BRITISH PUBLIC, THEY DO NOT BELIEVE HE HAS THE VISION FOR THE POLITICAL --TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THIS CRISIS .
IN A SERIES OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE, GINGERLY SUGGESTING MAYBE THEY ARE THE PERSON, THE HEALTH SECRETARY, HE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE IT, DESIRED TO BE PRIME MINISTER SINCE HE CAME OUT OF THE WOMB, THE PROBLEM WITH HIM IF HE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH SUPPORT IN THE PARTY, ANDY BURNHAM, MAYOR OF MANCHESTER, NOT A PARLIAMENTARY SEAT, THE FORMER DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, SHE HAD A TAX INVESTIGATION DOGGING HER.
YOU HAVE HAD THE PRIME MINISTER , DEEPLY UNPOPULAR WITHIN HIS PARTY AND WITHIN THE BRITISH PUBLIC, AND PRETENDERS TO THE THRONE WHO HAVE THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL PROBLEMS AND REASONS AS TO WHY THEY CANNOT BECOME PRIME MINISTER OR LEAVE THE LABOUR PARTY.
YOU HAVE A GOOD OLD-FASHIONED BRITISH POLITICAL MESS WITH THE LABOUR PARTY IN A SITUATION WHERE IT HAS A COUP, NOT A COUP, AND PRIME MINISTER SEEMS TO THINK YOU NEED TO HAVE A COUP ONLY WHEN THE PROPER FORMS ARE SUBMITTED IN TRIPLICATE.
>> YOU HAVE GIVEN US A GOOD AND PRECISE OVERSIGHT OF THE MESS.
WHEN YOU ARE ON THE DOORSTEP, YOU SPEAK TO SO MANY PEOPLE, WHAT IS THE KERNEL OF THE DISCONTENT ?
WHY DID THEY TURN ON KEIR STARMER ?
HE HAD AN IMPRESSIVE MAJORITY WHEN HE WAS ELECTED.
IS IT ALL ABOUT COST OF LIVING?
IT IS ABOUT THE CULTURE WAR?
>> YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER , KEIR STARMER WAS ELECTED WITH AN IMPRESSIVE MAJORITY, ONE OF THE BIGGEST PARLIAMENTARY MAJORITIES IN HISTORY, HE WAS NEVER A POPULAR POLITICAL FIGURE , LESS THAN 35% OF THE VOTE, A RECORD FOR AN INCOMING MAJORITY GOVERNMENT AND NEVER A MUCH LOVED FIGURE BUT HE WAS NOT THE CONSERVATIVES, THE PERSON YOU NEEDED TO VOTE FOR TO GET RID OF THE TORIES WHO WERE MUCH REVILED BY MUCH OF THE BRITISH PUBLIC AND THE WORST ELECTION RESULTS IN HISTORY IN 2024 .
IT MEANT THAT HE HAD NEITHER BUILT UP A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BRITISH PUBLIC AND HE DID NOT DEVELOP MUCH IN THE SENSE OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO, IT SEEMED VERY MUCH WHEN YOU TALK TO KEIR STARMER, HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE ENOUGH FOR HIM SIMPLY NOT TO BE THE TORIES, HE WOULD HAVE MORE INTEGRITY AND BE MORE SENSIBLE AND MORE COMPETENT AND THAT WOULD UNLOCK ALL OF THE PROBLEMS, SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS WRITTEN WAS AFFLICTED BY, THE ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL PROBLEMS ARE TOO DEEP, WE HAVE HAD 20 YEARS IN BRITAIN OF DECLINING LIVING STANDARDS, THE AVERAGE PERSON IN BRITAIN IS NO BETTER OFF THAN THEY WERE IN 2004 .
THE BRITISH PUBLIC CONSISTENTLY ARE VOTING FOR SOMEONE, ANYONE, WHO MAY TRY TO DEAL WITH THAT PROBLEM.
EACH TIME IT IS ROLLING DOUBLE ONES , A LARGE PART OF THE ANSWER TO WHERE KEIR STARMER IS NOT JUST A SLIGHT, YOU MAY THINK THAT IS UNFAIR, MILD-MANNERED GUY, NOT JUST DISLIKE BUT ACTIVELY DESPISED BY A LOT OF VOTERS .
>> INCREDIBLE SOMEONE WHO COMES ACROSS AS A TECHNOCRAT CAN BE SO DESPISED AND WE HEAR THAT, IF WE TRIED TO TURN THE PAGE ON KEIR STARMER, WHAT CAN ANY OF THESE NEW CANDIDATES OFFER?
SO MANY PEOPLE SAY YOU CANNOT GOVERN THE UK ANYMORE.
WE HAVE SEEN THE BREAKDOWN OF THE TWO PARTY SYSTEM.
>> YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO 2017 TO SEE THE LABOUR AND CONSERVATIVE PARTY GETTING 83%, 84% OF THE VOTE AND THE POLLING NOW BARELY 40%, FOR NOW WE SEEM TO BE SEEING THAT WHICH IS LEADING TO FRAGMENTATION AND PANIC, LEADING TO ALL SORTS OF POLITICAL OUTCOMES WE HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE FUNNELED THROUGH THE SAME ELECTION SYSTEM IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH MEANS THAT, IN A NON-TWO PARTY SYSTEM, SOMETIMES 20% , 25% OF THE VOTE TO GET A SEAT, CREATING CHAOS AND DYSFUNCTION EVERYWHERE.
MY PERSONAL VIEW, I DO NOT THINK THE BRITISH SYSTEM IS NOT GOVERNABLE BUT LOOKS THAT WAY BECAUSE NO ONE IS GOVERNING IT TERRIBLY WELL, ON PAPER EASIER TO GOVERN THAN THE UNITED STATES WAS SEPARATION OF POWERS, COMPLICATED CONSTITUTION WITH POWER DISTRIBUTED IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS IN THE BRITISH SYSTEM, A MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, YOU ARE AN ELECTED DICTATORSHIP, YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, HOUSE OF COMMONS IS SOVEREIGN, THE PROBLEM IS PARTY AFTER PARTY AND PRIME MINISTER AFTER PRIME MINISTER HAVE NEVER HAD A POLITICAL VISION TO BE ABLE TO TRULY PROSECUTE THROUGH GOVERNMENT AND TRUE REFORM OF THE COUNTRY.
UNTIL YOU HAVE THAT, YOU WILL SEE MORE AND MORE DRIFT WHICH LEADS TO DIVISION, WHICH LEADS TO INSTABILITY AND COUPS, POSSIBILITY OF THE SEVENTH PRIME MINISTER IN 10 YEARS.
>> LIKE DONALD TRUMP , NIGEL FARAGE HAS STOKED UP THE ANTI- IMMIGRATION FERVOR, HOW DO YOU VIEW REFORM RISE, NIGEL FARAGE, DO YOU EXPECT HE WILL BE THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER?
WE HAVE TO COUNSEL THE FACT THAT LOCAL ELECTIONS THE LEFT, THE GREEN PARTY HAD SUCCESS, WHERE DO YOU SEE VOTERS GOING ?
>> IT IS EASY TO OVERESTIMATE THE REFORM NIGEL FARAGE SEARCH , IT IS IMPRESSIVE, RARE FOR A PARTY IN THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY, LIBERAL PARTY TO GET SERIOUS TRACTION.
THEY ARE DOING WELL ACROSS ENGLAND AND EVEN IN SCOTLAND AND WALES WHICH IS NOT SOMETHING NIGEL FARAGE HAS DONE BEFORE.
THAT SAID, YOU ALLUDED TO IT, IN TERMS OF HOW THEY ARE DOING NATIONALLY, PROBABLY 25%, 26% OF THE VOTE, FOR THE PARTY WITH INTENT IS TO GOVERN IS NOT THAT GREAT BUT ALL OF THE OTHER PARTIES ARE DOING SOMEWHAT LESS WELL AND TRUE TO SAY NIGEL FARAGE IS A WELL-KNOWN FIGURE ADORED BY SOME LIKE DONALD TRUMP, AND REVILED BY OTHERS, FEW WHO DO NOT HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT THE MAN.
IF YOU TALK TO LABOUR PARTY PEOPLE OR CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE, THEY THINK HE IS BEAUTIFUL AND WITH THE RIGHT LEADERSHIP FOR THE RIGHT APPROACH, HE IS QUITE CHECKERED, ASSOCIATED WITH BREXIT , WHICH MANY BRITISH PEOPLE DOES NOTHING IS GOING WELL AND SOMEONE WHO CAN BE TAKEN ON BUT YOU NEED SOMEONE WITH THE POWER AND ARGUMENT TO DO IT, MUCH LIKE DONALD TRUMP IS A GREAT HERO, THE PERFORMER WITH THE MEDIA AND GOOD ON SOCIAL MEDIA, HAS A CERTAIN CHARISMA WHICH IS UNDENIABLE, THEY THINK HE IS POSSIBLE TO BE TAKEN OUT AND THE LABOUR PARTY HAS COME TO THE CONCLUSION KEIR STARMER IS NOT THE MAN TO DO IT.
>> WHEN IT DOES TURN TO THE LEFT AND THE GREENS, DO YOU BELIEVE THEY COULD CARRY A LOT OF AGENCY WITH VOTERS DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS WITH LABOUR IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS?
>> OF COURSE, THIS IS THE PARTY OF THE LABOUR PARTY, HEMORRHAGING VOTES IN BOTH DIRECTIONS WHICH THE ELECTORAL VALUE OF DOOM FOR ANY PARTY, LABOUR SEATING VOTES TO HIS LEFT WITH THE GREEN PARTY, THE GREENS WERE HISTORICALLY SLIGHTLY CONSERVATIONIST, CONCERNED WITH ENVIRONMENTAL AND ANIMAL RIGHTS ISSUES, HE HAS MOVED THEM TO THE ECONOMIC POPULIST LEFT, BERNIE SANDERS PLUS PLUS PLUS, THAT HAS HAD A RESIDENCE WITH PEOPLE FRUSTRATED KEIR STARMER IS NOT RADICAL ENOUGH.
AT THE SAME TIME, REFORM LEADING VOTES FOR THE LABOUR TO HIS RIGHT AND MANY LOCAL ELECTIONS I SPOKE ABOUT, IT WAS USUALLY OFTEN THE GREENS WOULD NOT GET A SEAT BUT THEIR VOTE WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE LABOUR VOTE ALLOWED REFORM.
ANY INCOMING LABOUR LEADER HAS TO DEAL WITH PROBLEMS OF THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT, POLITICAL LEADERS ARE ABLE TO DO THAT IF THEY ARE GREAT WHILE MANAGING TO MAINTAIN THEIR COALITION.
THAT IS WHAT LABOUR ARE LOOKING FOR BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT CONVINCED KEIR STARMER IS THE RIGHT MAN.
>> WHEN GLOBAL POLITICS IS REALLY FRAUGHT, ON THE ECONOMY AND GEOPOLITICS.
TENSE TIMES AHEAD FOR THE UK.
YOU HAVE GIVEN US QUITE A PICTURE, PODCAST IS NEWSAGENTS AND WE WILL HAVE TO LISTEN MORE BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT TO GET MORE DRAMATIC.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
> >> DESPITE AN APPARENT CEASE- FIRE, PEOPLE OF LEBANON ARE STILL LIVING UNDER ISRAELI AIRSTRIKES, 22 PEOPLE WERE KILLED ON WEDNESDAY ACCORDING TO THE HEALTH MINISTRY OF LEBANON AND THE IDEA OF IT CONTINUING TO INTERCEPT ATTACKS FROM HEZBOLLAH, MEANTIME, PEACE TALKS ARE CONTINUING WITH ISRAELI AND LEBANESE OFFICIALS, THEY ARE MEETING FOR A THIRD ROUND IN WASHINGTON TODAY.
JEREMY DIAMOND JOINS US FROM JERUSALEM WHERE IT IS IS JERUSALEM DAY WHICH MANY NATIONAL ISRAELIS MARCHED THROUGH PALESTINIAN PARTS OF THE OLD CITY.
GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE, JEREMY , AS WE PARSE WHAT IS GOING ON AND I WANT TO TURN TO THE JERUSALEM DAY MARCH WHERE EVERY YEAR, WE SEE OFTEN VIOLENT AND FAR RIGHT CROWDS MARCHING TO THE OLD CITY, THE NATIONAL SECURITY MINISTER WENT TO THE TEMPLE MOUNT, AND WAVED THE ISRAELI FLAG.
WHAT DID YOU WITH US TODAY, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IT TELLS US ABOUT ISRAELI POLITICS?
>> WHAT WE HAVE SEEN ON JERUSALEM DAY IN PREVIOUS YEARS AND IN RECENT YEARS IN PARTICULAR, ONCE AGAIN, MUSLIM BORDER OF THE OLD CITY WAS EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN BY ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.
AS THEY PREPARED FOR THESE HUNDREDS OF YOUNG, TEENAGERS, MOSTLY ULTRANATIONALIST WHO THEN STORM THE MUSLIM QUARTER OF THE OLD CITY AND BEGIN CHANTING RACIST ANTI-ARAB SLOGANS SUCH AS MAY YOUR VILLAGE BURNED, AND OFTENTIMES TRY TO DEFACE SOME OF THE SHOPS AND PROPERTY IN THE AREA, WE SAW SOME OF THEM PUTTING STICKERS ON THESE PALESTINIAN OWNED SHOPS IN THE OLD CITY TALKING ABOUT THE MAYOR , A NOTORIOUS JEWISH TERRORIST SAYING THAT HE WAS RIGHT.
WE SAW SOME OF THESE YOUNG , FAR RIGHT NATIONALIST ATTACKING JOURNALIST AND SOME OF THESE PEACE ACTIVISTS WHO TRY TO PROTECT PALESTINIANS TRYING TO GET TO THE OLD CITY .
OVERALL, IT DOES SEEM THERE IS LESS VIOLENCE THAN WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS OF JERUSALEM DAY IN THE OLD CITY.
WHAT WE DID SEE ONCE AGAIN AS WELL, THE FAR RIGHT NATIONAL SECURITY MINISTER, GOING TO THE MOSQUE KNOWN AS THE TEMPLE MT.
IN JUDAISM, HE WENT WITH OTHER FAR RIGHT LAWMAKERS AND DECLARED THAT THE TEMPLE MT.
IS IN OUR HANDS.
HE HAS BEEN CRITICAL TO TRY AND CHANGE THE STATUS QUO AT THE MOSQUE , AT THE DOME OF THE ROCK, TO ALLOW JEWISH PEOPLE TO PRAY THEIR WHICH HAS BEEN SOMETHING THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OVER DECADES NOW HAVE PREVENTED JEWS FROM DOING AT THE TEMPLE MT.
BUT HE IS TESTING THE BOUNDS OF THAT WHICH FALLS IN LOVE WITH MORE BROADLY HIS EFFORTS TO ASSERT JEWISH SUPREMACY OVER JERUSALEM AND ACROSS ISRAEL AND THE WEST BANK.
>> WE WANT TO TURN TO DEVELOPMENTS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND LEBANON, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT ANY POSSIBLE DEAL ?
THEY ARE MEETING IN WASHINGTON AND HOW IS THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT DOING EFFORTS TO STOP THE WAR IN IRAN ?
>> WE SAW THE THIRD ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS TAKE PLACE TODAY BETWEEN THE ISRAELI AND LEBANESE AMBASSADORS TO WASHINGTON MEDIATED BY THE UNITED STATES.
TODAY, THERE WAS THE ADDITION OF A FEW OTHER OFFICIALS ON THE LEBANESE SIDE, A FORMER AMBASSADOR , WHO HAD PREVIOUSLY LED NEGOTIATIONS DIRECT NEGOTIATIONS WITH ISRAEL IN DECEMBER THAT TOOK PLACE BEFORE THIS CURRENT ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS.
YOU HAVE ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR INVOLVED AND THEIR INCLUSION PERHAPS SIGNALS THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE GETTING TO THE MORE SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES OF HOW TO WORK TOWARDS DISARMING HEZBOLLAH?
THE CRITICAL ISSUE TODAY WAS EXTENDING THE CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH, GUARANTEED EFFECTIVELY BY THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT ON THE LEBANESE SIDE, WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN CONFIRMATION THAT HAPPENS , IT WAS SET TO EXPIRE TOMORROW BUT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THE CEASE-FIRE IN MANY WAYS HAVE LED TO A REDUCTION NOT A STOP TO THE ATTACKS ON BOTH SIDES .
WE HAVE SEEN DAILY ISRAELI AIRSTRIKES IN LEBANON AND ALSO NEAR DAILY HEZBOLLAH ATTACKS AGAINST ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN SOUTHERN LEBANON AND TODAY, A DRONE THAT HEZBOLLAH FIRED IMPACTING IN NORTHERN ISRAELI COMMUNITY, WOUNDING AT LEAST ONE ISRAELI CIVILIAN IN THAT ATTACK.
>> JEREMY DIAMOND, CIVILIANS ON BOTH SIDES OF CONFLICT WONDERING WHAT THE CEASE-FIRE WILL MEAN AS IT CONTINUES VIOLENCE ON BOTH SIDES.
THANKS SO MUCH.
> >> WHEN YOU ARE SIGNING UP FOR SOMETHING NEW, ARE YOU READING THE FINE PRINT ON THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS PAGE?
MOST OF US CHECK OUT THE BOX, GUILTY AS CHARGED, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS WE SHOULD BE MORE VIGILANT, A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND FOUNDER OF THE PUBLIC INTEGRITY PROJECT, AN ORGANIZATION CHALLENGING CORRUPTION AND ABUSE OF POWER AND JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW COMPANIES ARE QUIETLY LIMITING AMERICANS ACCESS TO THE COURTS IN ORDER TO EVADE ACCOUNTABILITY.
AS HE HIGHLIGHTS IN HIS NEW BOOK.
>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.
TODAY, WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF US DO NOT THINK ABOUT, WHEN YOU OPEN A NEW CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT, OR YOU MAY BE OPEN A BANK ACCOUNT, IF YOU SIGN UP FOR A STREAMING SERVICE, YOU GO TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND HIT THE THING, YOU ARE SAYING THAT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO THAT THAT WE ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT, MOST OF US ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT, WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF ?
>> A PROFOUND CONSEQUENCE, YOU ARE SIGNING AWAY YOUR RIGHT TO THE PUBLIC JUSTICE SYSTEM IF A COMPANY HARMS YOU.
WHAT YOU ARE CERTAINLY SIGNING IS A FORCED ARBITRATION AGREEMENT, WHAT IT MEANS, IF ONE OF THESE COMPANIES HARMS YOU, DEFRAUD YOU, EVEN INJURES OR KILLS SOMEBODY YOU LOVE, YOU CANNOT SUE THEM IN PUBLIC COURT .
YOU HAVE TO GO TO A PRIVATE ALTERNATIVE TO THE JUSTICE SYSTEM CALLED FORCED ARBITRATION WHERE THE JUDGE CALLED AN ARBITRATOR WILL MOST LIKELY, THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE , WILL BE PAID FOR BY THE COMPANY YOU ARE SUING.
>> HOW DOES THAT WORK ?
THAT SOUNDS LIKE A NAÏVE QUESTION BUT, HOW IS THAT LEGAL ?
>> THE SUPREME COURT HAS MADE IT SO, THE FEDERAL ARBITRATION ACT OF 1925 THAT WAS MEANT FOR VERY SPECIFIC PURPOSES, TO BIND SOPHISTICATED PARTIES, MERCHANTS THAT HAD DISPUTES WITH ONE ANOTHER INTO ARBITRATION SO IT WOULD BE FASTER AND MORE INFORMAL THAN USING THE ORDINARY COURSE SYSTEM .
BEGINNING IN THE 1980S, CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES OF THE SUPREME COURT REINTERPRETED THE FEDERAL ARBITRATION ACT AND EXPANDING IT BEYOND WHAT THE HISTORY OR TEXT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED TO BIND US INTO ARBITRATION WHEN WE ARE CONSUMERS, WHEN WE ARE EMPLOYEES, WHEN WE SIGN THOSE CLICK TO ACCEPT CONTRACTS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT , NONE OF THAT WAS IN THE TEXT OF THE STATUTE BUT OVER SEVERAL YEARS AND DECADES, THE SUPREME COURT HAS EXPANDED THIS PRACTICE TO ENCOMPASS VIRTUALLY ALL OF US .
YOUR BOOK IS TITLED WHEN COMPANIES RUN THE COURTS, A BLUNT ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION, IS THAT YOUR VIEW, COMPANIES NOW RUN THE COURTS?
>> THE SPECIFIC TITLE REFERS TO THE SYSTEM OF ARBITRATION, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A SYSTEM WHERE BUSINESSES OFTEN PAY FOR THE EFFECTIVE JUDGE.
NOT SURPRISING, THE STATISTICS SHOW THAT OVERWHELMINGLY COMPANIES WIN, CONSUMERS WIN 89% OF THE TIME IN SMALL CLAIMS COURT BUT BEFORE --WITH ARBITRATION, 20% OR 30% OF THE TIME THEY WIN, NOT A LAWYER, MAY BE LESS THAN 10% OF THE TIME, IN A REAL WAY, COMPANIES DOMINATE THE FORCED ARBITRATION SYSTEM.
>> GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF HOW.
YOU SAY A MAN NAMED JEFFREY PICCOLO, WHO WENT ON A VACATION TO DISNEY WORLD WITH HIS WIFE, WHO HAD SEVERE FOOD ALLERGIES.
THEY WENT TO A RESTAURANT AND WERE ASSURED HER ALLERGIES WOULD BE ACCOMMODATED.
WHAT HAPPENED THEN?
>> ACCORDING TO THE SUBSEQUENT ALLEGATION, HIS WIFE HAD SEVERE ALLERGIES, WERE REPEATEDLY ASSURED THE FOOD WOULD BE OKAY, AND IT WASN'T, AND CONTAINED ALLERGENS.
NOT ONLY DID SHE HAVE ANAPHYLACTIC SHOCK, SHE DIED.
WHEN PICCOLO SUED DISNEY FOR WRONGFUL DEATH, DISNEY MOVED TO COMPEL HIM INTO FORCED ARBITRATION, A SYSTEM WHERE THE COMPANY, DISNEY, WOULD PAY FOR THE ARBITRATOR, AND THEY MOVED TO DO SO BECAUSE HE SIGNED AN ARBITRATION AGREEMENT WHEN HE SIGNED UP FOR HIS DISNEY+ ACCOUNT SEVERAL YEARS EARLIER.
IN THAT SPECIFIC CASE, THE PUBLICITY FROM THAT STORY WAS SO OVERWHELMING AND OVERWHELMING BAD, DISNEY BACKED OUT.
THE LAW WAS ON DISNEY'S SIDE.
AND EXAMPLE AFTER EXAMPLE OF COMPANIES COMPELLING PEOPLE INTO ARBITRATION WHEN THEY ARE SUING OVER RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, OVER THE MURDER OF THEIR SON, THEIR OWN RAPE, OR WRONGFUL BIRTH, ALL HAVE BEEN COMPELLED INTO ARBITRATION.
>> AFTER THIS BACKLASH, DISNEY ISSUED THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT, "AT DISNEY, WE STRIVE TO PUT HUMANITY ABOVE ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS AND THE CASE WARRANTED A GENERAL APPROACH TO --SENSITIVE APPROACH TO EXPEDITE THE RESOLUTION FOR THE FAMILY.
ANOTHER CASE IN THE BOOK WHERE A WOMAN WHO WAS A CREWMEMBER ON A CRUISE SHIP ACCEPTED AN INVITATION FROM A COLLEAGUE, TO JOIN HIM FOR CHRISTMAS , SHE WOKE UP IN PAIN, REALIZED SOMETHING HAPPENED, REALIZED SHE HAD BEEN RAPED, ACCORDING TO YOUR ACCOUNT, THE CREWMEMBER ADMITTED HE HAD RAPED HER, SHE WAS DISCOURAGED FROM GOING TO THE POLICE OR FILING A COMPLAINT, THEN WHAT HAPPENED ?
>> ACCORDING TO THE ALLEGATIONS, THE WOMAN WAS RAPED, CREW MEMBER ADMITTED IT AND THEY DISCOURAGED HER FROM GOING TO THE POLICE, SHE SUES THE CRUISE SHIP COMPANY AND HAD A BINDING ARBITRATION CLAUSE AND COMPELLED INTO ARBITRATION, NOT JUST ARBITRATION BUT PRIVATE ARBITRATION IN THE PHILIPPINES, HER OWN COUNTRY, WE DO NOT KNOW THE OUTCOME OF ARBITRATION BECAUSE ARBITRATION IS OVERWHELMINGLY KEPT SECRET.
CONGRESS DID MAKE ONE MEANINGFUL IMPROVEMENT IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, TO EXEMPT ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND HARASSMENT FROM FORCED ARBITRATION.
VIRTUALLY ANY OTHER POTENTIAL VIOLATION OF THE LAW CAN STILL BE ARBITRATED, WHETHER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A TERMINATION, RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, OR , LIKE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, INJURY OR WRONGFUL DEATH CLAIMS, IF SOMEBODY YOU LOVE DIES, YOU MAY NEVERTHELESS HAVE TO ARBITRATE A CASE AS SERIOUS AS THAT.
>> THERE IS A HUGE POWER IMBALANCE THAT MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW THEY WILL BE PUT INTO FORCED ARBITRATION, IF THEY DO, THE ARBITER IS GENERALLY SOMEBODY PAID BY THE COMPANY.
WHAT IS THE REASONING BY THE COURT ?
THE WHOLE POINT OF A COURT SYSTEM IS TO BALANCE COMPETING INTERESTS .
WHAT WAS THE REASONING AND ALLOWING IT TO BE EXPANDED IN SUCH A WAY?
>> I DO NOT THINK THAT THERE WAS A STRONG TEXTUAL OR LEGISLATIVE BASIS FOR EXPANDING THIS AND THERE HAS BEEN BROAD CRITICISM OF THE REASONING IN A LOT OF THESE DECISIONS.
I THINK IT BOILS DOWN TO A REAL ANIMUS TOWARDS CONSUMER AND EMPLOYEE LAWSUITS WHICH MANY CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES SEE AS FRIVOLOUS, AND AGAINST CLASS ACTION SPECIFICALLY BEING THIS IDEA THAT, RATHER THAN EACH PERSON SIMILARLY HARMED BRINGING THEIR OWN CASE, EVERYBODY EXPERIENCED THE SAME HARM CAN GO UNDER ONE UMBRELLA WHICH SAVES COSTS, AND THAT HAS HAD ENORMOUS IMPACT IN AMERICAN HISTORY WITH ROE V WADE, BROWN VERSUS BOARD OF EDUCATION WAS A CLASS-ACTION, BUT THE CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES HAVE A REAL AVERSION TO CLASS-ACTION AND FORCED ARBITRATION WAS A WAY TO POTENTIALLY KILL THAT IN A SPECIFIC WAY .
WHICH WAS THAT MANY OF THESE ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS REQUIRE YOU, NOT JUST TO ARBITRATE YOUR CLAIM, BUT TO DO SO INDIVIDUALLY, EACH PERSON HARMED HAS TO BRING THEIR OWN CASE, WHY THAT MATTERS IS, THINK ABOUT THE WAYS A COMPANY MAY HARM YOU, $30 FEES THAT A BANK MAY ADD THAT DO NOT SEEM TO MAKE SENSE OR DO NOT SEEM FAIR, THEY CAN ONLY BE RESOLVED THROUGH CLASS- ACTION, IF YOU CAN KILL THE CLASS ACTION AND FORCE PEOPLE TO PURSUE THEIR CLAIMS INDIVIDUALLY, THAT MEANS IT BECOMES ECONOMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYBODY TO ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT THOSE.
TO VIEWERS WHO FEEL LIKE COMPANIES ARE INCREASINGLY SKIMMING THEM OR INCREASINGLY BEYOND THE REACH OF THE LAW, FORCED ARBITRATION IS A LARGE REASON WHY THAT IS THE CASE .
>> THERE IS NO RECOURSE, THAT IS HOW THEY CAN AFFORD TO GET AWAY WITH TERRIBLE CUSTOMER SERVICE.
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT ?
>> EXACTLY, A CHANGE OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS, IF YOU SEE COMPANIES BEHAVING DIFFERENTLY TO THEIR CUSTOMERS THAN THEY DID A GENERATION AGO, IT IS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE HELD LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE EITHER CONSUMERS OR EMPLOYEES AT ALL BUT THE BIGGEST HARMS.
THIS IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL, PROSECUTORS , THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND SO FORTH, THESE ARE DRAMATICALLY OVERWHELMED INSTITUTIONS , EVEN IF THEY WERE NOT, THINK ABOUT THE CURRENT DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DOES NOT SEEM TO SHOW A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST OR EMPATHY TO ORDINARY CONSUMERS OR EMPLOYEES ON ISSUES LIKE THIS.
>> HOW DID YOU COME TO SEE THIS ?
HOW DID THE STORY COME TO YOU?
AS YOU SAID, HARD TO KNOW THERE IS A PATTERN ?
>> FOR LAWYERS, FORCED ARBITRATION IS A BIG PART OF OUR LIVES BECAUSE IT HAS STOPPED CLASS ACTIONS AND THE ABILITY TO GET JUSTICE, WHAT BROUGHT ME SPECIFICALLY TO THE STORY, MY BACKGROUND AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND ANTITRUST AND WHITE- COLLAR WORK, I WROTE A BOOK CRITICAL OF PRIVATE EQUITY A FEW YEARS AGO, TALKING TO MANY NONLAWYERS THROUGH THAT WORK , I GOT THE SENSE THAT MANY PEOPLE, MOST PEOPLE FEEL THAT THE LEGAL SYSTEM IS PROFOUNDLY STACKED AGAINST THEM AND REALLY GEARED TOWARDS THE CORPORATIONS AND THE RICH AND POWERFUL.
AS A PRACTICING LAWYER, I WANTED TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE RIGHT, BUT EXPLAINED IT IN A WAY THAT WAS SPECIFIC SO PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND THE REAL MECHANISMS BY WHICH THE LEGAL SYSTEM AND THE LAW BENDS TOWARD THE POWERFUL AND HOW WE MAY BEND IT BACK TO SOMETHING MORE JUST.
>> IF CLASS-ACTION LAWSUITS HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED, WHY AM I GIVING THESE POSTERS TELLING ME I AM ELIGIBLE FOR $30 FROM THIS BANK I DO NOT REMEMBER GETTING OVERCHARGED BY?
>> THE BANK EXAMPLE IS INTERESTING BECAUSE THAT IS INCREASINGLY UNCOMMON, YOU LOOK AT WHERE FORCED ARBITRATION IS MOST COMMON, IN THE MOST HIGHLY CONCENTRATED INDUSTRIES, CONSUMER FINANCE, TELECOMMUNICATIONS, AIRLINES, SO FORTH, YOU MAY BE GETTING THE OCCASIONAL POSTCARD ABOUT A BANK THAT MAYBE YOU HAD AN AGREEMENT WITH 10 YEARS AGO, YOU DID NOT REMEMBER YOU HAD IT, BANKS ARE INCREASINGLY -- USE FORCED ARBITRATION , THERE WAS A BROAD MOVEMENT TO TRY TO STOP FORCED ARBITRATION IN THE CONSUMER FINANCE INDUSTRY SPECIFICALLY, THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE WAS ENORMOUSLY EFFECTIVE IN DEFEATING THAT.
I THINK WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IS THE REMNANTS OF A SYSTEM WHERE SOPHISTICATED COMPANIES DID NOT HAVE FORCED ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS, AND INCREASINGLY, ALL THE BUSINESSES WERE SIGNING UP FOR, TERMS OF SERVICE YOU SIGN UP FOR, OVERWHELMINGLY HAVE FORCED ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS TO SUCH AN EXTENT THEY ARE FAR MORE ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS IN AMERICA THAT AMERICANS, IT WILL BE MUCH HARDER FOR YOU IN THE FUTURE WHEN ONE OF THESE COMPANIES HARMS YOU.
>> LET'S SAY YOU DO NOT WANT TO ACCEPT THIS FORCED ARBITRATION , I HAVE A MEMORY OF A COMPANY WITH WHICH I HAD A CREDIT CARD SOME YEARS AGO AND THEY SENT ME THIS FORCED ARBITRATION AGREEMENT SAYING YOU CAN OPT OUT, SO I DID I DO NOT ACCEPT IT , NOT THAT HE HAD PLANNED TO SUE THEM, BUT WHY SHOULD I DO THAT?
THEY CANCELED MY ACCOUNT.
FINE.
I WON'T SHOP THERE ANYMORE >> PEOPLE WILL GRAVITATE TO THE COMPANY'S THAT DO NOT HAVE FORCED ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY ALL DO.
EVEN IF YOU WANT TO OPT OUT, THERE IS INTERESTING RESEARCH SHOWING THAT MANY TIMES THOSE COMPANIES THAT OFFER OPT OUTS IN THE CONTRACT DO NOT HAVE PROCEDURES AND YOU CANNOT DO IT EVEN IF THE CONTRACT SAYS YOU CAN, MOST IMPORTANTLY BUT NOTHING IN THE LAW THAT REQUIRES ANY OF THESE OPT OUT PROCEDURES AND MANY TIMES , WHEN YOU LOOK AT THOSE CLICK TO ACCEPT AGREEMENTS, YOU LITERALLY DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE.
I ALWAYS SAY, THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT ETHICAL CONSUMERS , NOT GOING TO SOLVE PARTLY BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE, EVEN IF WE DID, THE NUMBER OF TIMES WE WOULD HAVE TO FIX THIS IS OVERWHELMING AND MORE THAN ANY NORMAL PERSON CAN DO, MORE THAN I COULD DO, WE WILL HAVE TO SOLVE THIS COLLECTIVELY.
>> BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, I WILL ASK YOU, WE HAVE ALL SEEN STORIES ABOUT THE PERSON WHO SUES THE FAST FOOD COMPANY BECAUSE THEY SAID THEIR COFFEE WAS TOO HOT, THESE STORIES THAT SUGGEST COURTS ARE OVERBURDENED WITH RIDICULOUS CASES.
>> UNDERSTANDABLE SOMEBODY MAY HAVE THE BELIEF THAT WE ARE DELUGED WITH FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS BURDENING OUR COURT SYSTEM AND COMPANIES, I WOULD IMPLORE YOU, TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS HAVE BEEN SPENT TO GET YOU TO HAVE THAT BELIEF.
THERE HAS BEEN A MULTI-DECADE-LONG EFFORT TO CREATE THIS IDEA THAT THERE WAS A LITIGATION EXPLOSION IN THE UNITED STATES.
WHAT RESEARCH SUGGESTS, THAT LITIGATION EXPLOSION MAY NEVER HAVE OCCURRED.
MANY OF THE MOST FAMOUS STORIES THAT WE HAVE ABOUT THIS ARE MUCH MORE COMPLICATED AND VASTLY MORE PLAINTIFF FRIENDLY ON INSPECTION THAT WE GET IN THE SOUNDBITES OR IN THE CULTURAL MEANS.
THE PERSON SUING OVER HOT COFFEE WAS A NATIONAL JOKE IN THE 1990S, THE WOMAN WHO SUED, WAS IN HER LATE 70s, WHEN SHE SPILLED THE COFFEE, SHE GOT THIRD DEGREE BURNS ON HER THIGHS, BUTTOCKS, HAD TO HAVE SKIN GRAFTS FOR TWO WEEKS AND PHYSICAL THERAPY FOR YEARS, SHE TRIED TO SETTLE FOR $50,000 AND McDONALD'S REFUSED , ONLY AFTER MULTIPLE REFUSALS FROM McDONALD'S THEY WENT TO COURT AND REVEALED THAT THE COMPANY HAD HUNDREDS OF SIMILAR BURN ALLEGATIONS AND THE $2.
7 MILLION AWARD, I BELIEVE IT WAS, WAS TWO DAYS OF COFFEE SALES FOR McDONALD'S AND MEANT TO BE A DETERRENT FOR McDONALD'S OR DOING THESE OVERHEATING POLICIES .
IT GOES TO SHOW THAT THOSE SORTS OF CASES MEANT TO DETER COMPANIES FROM BROAD, SYSTEMIC HARM ARE INCREASINGLY IMPOSSIBLE .
>> WHAT IS THE FIX?
>> I DO NOT THINK ETHICAL CONSUMERISM, READING CONTRACTS CAREFULLY WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM AND IN MANY WAYS WE CANNOT OPT OUT.
IT WILL HAVE TO BE LEGISLATION.
CONGRESS IS PARALYZED ON THESE ISSUES, IT WILL HAPPEN IN STATES AND LOCALITIES, IN PARTICULAR, CALIFORNIA, MARYLAND AND OTHERS HAVE DONE GOOD WORK PASSING LEGISLATION TO FORCED ARBITRATION WARFARE AND MORE TRANSPARENT, MORE LIKE A REGULAR COURT SYSTEM.
CALIFORNIA HAS PASSED A IMPORTANT LAW CALLED THE PRIVATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL ACT WHICH ALLOWS PEOPLE WHO ARE ORDINARILY BOUND BY FORCED ARBITRATION WITH THEIR EMPLOYER TO SUE INSTEAD ON BEHALF OF THE CALIFORNIA LABOUR DEPARTMENT WHICH IS NOT BOUND BY FORCED ARBITRATION.
DELEGATING THE STATE AUTHORITY TO EMPLOYEES.
WE REALLY NEED LEGISLATION LIKE THAT IN OTHER STATES AND ON OTHER ISSUES, NOT JUST EMPLOYMENT BUT DISCRIMINATION, ANTITRUST CONSUMER FRAUD, ENVIRONMENTAL HARMS, IF WE DO THAT, ARBITRATION WILL BECOME A MUCH SMALLER PART OF OUR LIVES AND HOPEFULLY COMPANIES WILL BEHAVE BETTER.
>> GIVEN THIS IS A MULTI-DECADE- LONG TREND YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED IN YOUR REPORTING, DO YOU GENERALLY SEE AN OPPORTUNITY TO PUSH BACK AGAINST IT AND EQUALIZE THINGS?
>> SPECIFIC THINGS AND A BROADER ANSWER, I DO HAVE A LOT OF OPTIMISM ON THE SUPREME COURT, INTERESTING RESEARCH SHOWING THE LESS SALIENT ISSUES , THINGS THAT NOT VOTING RIGHTS, ABORTION RIGHTS, THE SUPREME COURT IS SURPRISINGLY RESPONSIVE TO PUBLIC OPINION AND THE MORE THAT WE CAN RAISE THE SALIENCE OF FORCED ARBITRATION, THE MORE THE SUPREME COURT EXPANSIONIST AGENDA CAN BE NOT NECESSARILY STOPPED BUT SLOWED .
I THINK WE CAN USE THAT TIME TO PASS THE LEGISLATION WE NEED I HAVE A LEVEL OF OPTIMISM BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN STATES ALREADY DO SO.
MORE GENERALLY, I HAVE REASON TO BE OPTIMISTIC BECAUSE , THE BEST PART OF MY JOB IS I GET TO TALK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHOSEN A SPECIFIC ISSUE AROUND FORCED ARBITRATION, PRIVATE EQUITY, WHATEVER IT HAPPENS TO BE, THEY STICK WITH IT FOR MONTHS OR YEARS AND HAVE ENORMOUS IMPACT.
I HAVE SOME OPTIMISM THAT WE WILL MAKE PROGRESS.
BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN PROGRESS HAPPENED SO MANY TIMES ON OTHER ISSUES.
>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> HAITI HAS SCORED A PLACE AT THE WORLD CUP FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MORE THAN FIVE DECADES.
>> THE YOUNG PLAYERS ARE HOPING TO REALIZE THEIR BIG DREAM ONE DAY PLAYING FOR THE NATIONAL TEAM.
DESPITE ONGOING GANG VIOLENCE AND CONFLICT IN THE COUNTRY.
THE HAITIAN SQUAD QUALIFIES FOR THE BIGGEST TOURNAMENT WHILE PLAYING ALL THEIR MATCHES -- THEY ARE INSPIRING A NEW GENERATION TO TRAIN UP, MANY ARE PROUD TO SEE HAITI REPRESENTED ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE, INCLUDING THIS 12-YEAR-OLD.
>> I WANT TO PLAY FOR THE NATIONAL TEAM, TO WIN THE WORLD CUP COME TO SHOW WHAT HAITI IS.
>> THAT IS IT TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.
ORG/AMANPOUR.
I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY, JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.