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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
THE LATEST DUMP OF EPSTEIN EMAILS STILL MAKING WAVES.
WE DISCUSS THE REVELATIONS WITH CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT JEFF ZELENY.
>>> THEN, WHAT ZOHRAN MAMDANI'S WIN AS MAYOR OF NEW YORK TELLS US ABOUT A LARGER WORLDWIDE TREND IN LEFT-WING POLITICS.
THE LEADER OF THE UK'S PROGRESSIVE GREEN PARTY, ZACH POLANSKI, JOINS ME TO DISCUSS COUNTERING THE RIGHT, AND HIS OWN SURGE IN THE POLLS.
>>> PLUS, "WAITING FOR GODOT."
SAMUEL BECKETT'S PLAY IS BACK ON BROADWAY, AND I SPEAK TO ITS STARS, KEANU REEVES AND ALEX WINTER ABOUT TAKING ON THIS ABSURD MATZER PIECE.
>>> ALSO AHEAD, CONGRESSMAN JIM CLYBURN TALKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK PROFILING THE EIGHT BLACK POLITICAL PIONEERS WHO CAME BEFORE HIM.
♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO."
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THANK YOU.
> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, AND WE BEGIN WITH MORE REVELATIONS FROM THE EPSTEIN FILES.
THOUSANDS OF EMAILS TO AND FROM JEFFREY EPSTEIN HAVE BEEN RELEASED BY THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE, EXPOSING A WEB OF CONNECTIONS TO THE DISGRACED BUSINESSMAN AND CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER WHO WAS FOUND DEAD IN HIS JAIL CELL IN 2019.
OF COURSE, ALL ANYBODY WANTS TO KNOW IS ABOUT PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.
WHILE THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE, THE DEMOCRATS WERE FIRST TO RELEASE A HANDFUL OF EMAILS WHERE EPSTEIN DISCUSSED HIM.
TRUMP ADMITS THEY WERE ONCE FRIENDLY, BUT SAYS HE CUT TIES WITH HIM YEARS AGO.
THE REPUBLICANS RESPONDED BY RELEASING THE FULL SET OF EMAILS AND DOCUMENTS, A WHOPPING 20,000 OF THEM THAT THEY HAD OBTAINED FROM THE EPSTEIN ESTATE THROUGH A SUBPOENA.
AND NOW WITH THE HOUSE FINALLY BACK IN SESSION AFTER A LONG DRAWN-OUT SHUTDOWN, LAWMAKERS COULD FORCE THE RELEASE OF EVEN MORE DOCUMENTS.
SO TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS, LET'S BRING IN JEFF ZELENY, WHO IS FOLLOWING THE STORY CLOSELY FROM WASHINGTON.
AND JEFF, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
IT'S OBVIOUSLY HAVING RAMIFICATIONS OVER HERE IN THE UK AS WELL, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.
SO JUST WONDERING, WHAT LED TO THIS, AND WHAT KIND OF WAVES IS IT MAKING IN WASHINGTON NOW?
>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, IT'S MAKING CONSIDERABLE WAVES.
YOU CAN SEE JUST BY HOW THE WHITE HOUSE WAS SCRAMBLING REALLY IN THE LAST DAY TO RESPOND TO JUST A WAVE OF EMAILS.
AND WHAT THESE EMAILS HAVE DONE HAVE REVIVED THE CONVERSATION THAT REVOLVES AROUND A VERY SIMPLE QUESTION.
WHAT DID DONALD TRUMP KNOW ABOUT WHAT JEFFREY EPSTEIN CONDUCT WAS AT THE TIME, LONG BEFORE DONALD TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT.
OF COURSE, HE WAS ON "CELEBRITY APPRENTICE."
HE WAS A CELEBRITY AT THE TIME.
HOWEVER, THESE EMAILS THAT WERE RELEASED ON WEDNESDAY, FIRST FROM HOUSE DEMOCRATS TO REALLY SHINE A LIGHT ON THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT MAY HAVE KNOWN MORE ABOUT THE ACTIVITIES AND CONDUCT OF JEFFREY EPSTEIN THAN HE HAS SUGGESTED UP UNTIL NOW.
THAT WAS FOLLOWED, AS YOU SAID, BY HOUSE REPUBLICANS RELEASING A DELUGE OF DOCUMENTS, SOME 20,000 PAGES OF EMAILS.
SO YOU GET THE SENSE THAT THEY WANT TO BURY WASHINGTON IN SO MANY EMAILS, IT'S HARD TO FOLLOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON.
BUT WHEN WE'VE LOOKED THROUGH THOSE, AND WE ARE STILL LOOKING THROUGH ALL OF THEM, WE HAVE LEARNED A FEW THINGS.
AND ONE IS THAT JEFFREY EPSTEIN HAS SAID QUITE BLUNTLY THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD SPENT HOURS AT HIS HOME, MORE THAN WE HAD PREVIOUSLY LEARNED.
AND THE QUESTION IS WHY.
THE ANSWER TO THAT WAS CERTAINLY NOT FORTHCOMING BY THE WHITE HOUSE.
THE WHITE HOUSE HAS REPEATEDLY TRIED TO SAY THE PRESIDENT HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG.
BUT A BIGGER QUESTION IS DID THE PRESIDENT KNOW ABOUT JEFFREY EPSTEIN'S WRONGDOING.
SO ALL OF THESE EMAILS REALLY SHINE A LIGHT ON A VARIETY OF PEOPLE FROM LARRY SUMMERS, THE FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY AND HEAD OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY.
HE OF COURSE IS A DEMOCRAT.
HE HAD A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH JEFFREY EPSTEIN.
HE WAS ASKING FOR RELATIONSHIP ADVICE.
IT ALSO SHINES A LIGHT ON A VARIETY OF OTHER FIGURES TALKING ABOUT EPSTEIN.
BUT, AGAIN, FOCUSING ON THE MATTER AT HAND HERE, THAT IS THE PRESIDENT.
AND THE WHITE HOUSE WENT TO GREAT LENGTHS YESTERDAY TO TRY AND MOVE BEYOND THIS.
BUT THAT CLEARLY IS NOT POSSIBLE.
AND MUCH MORE WILL BE COMING OUT AND BEING LEARNED ABOUT THIS IN THE COMING DAYS.
>> SO, JEFF, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
EVERYBODY IS POINTED TO FINALLY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE SEATING THE DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN FROM ARIZONA AFTER KEEPING HER ESSENTIALLY AWAY FROM TAKING HER SEAT FOR MANY, MANY WEEKS.
WHAT DOES THIS ACTUALLY MEAN?
IN THIS CASE?
>> SO WHAT THIS MEANS IN THIS CASE, THAT WAS THE 218th VOTE.
SO THAT MEANT THE HOUSE NOW HAS ENOUGH VOTES, ENOUGH SUPPORT TO ESSENTIALLY GO OVER THE RULES OF THE SPEAKER.
IT'S CALLED A DISCHARGE PETITION, AND HAVE A FULL VOTE OF THE HOUSE.
SO SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON ON WEDNESDAY EVENING FINALLY AGREED AFTER NOT AGREEING FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS, FINALLY THE HOUSE NEXT WEEK WILL VOTE ON THE FULL RELEASE, URGING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO FULLY RELEASE ALL OF THE EPSTEIN FILES.
THE CASE FILES.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
OF COURSE, THE SENATE WOULD HAVE TO VOTE ON IT.
THAT IS UNLIKELY.
BUT WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT HOUSE REPUBLICANS NOW WILL HAVE TO TAKE A STAND AND VOTE ON THIS.
AND THE WHITE HOUSE HAS MOUNTED A MASSIVE PRESSURE CAMPAIGN, TRYING TO NOT EVEN ALLOW IT TO GET TO THIS STEP.
SOMETHING HAPPENED YESTERDAY IN THE SITUATION ROOM OF THE WHITE HOUSE THAT WAS QUITE EXTRAORDINARY.
THIS IS THE FIFTH AMERICAN PRESIDENT I'VE COVERED.
NEVER CAN I RECALL A WHITE HOUSE SITUATION ROOM MEETING ON A MATTER LIKE THIS.
NOT OF NATIONAL SECURITY, BUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES, THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE FBI DIRECTOR ALL SUMMONED ONE MEMBER OF CONGRESS, LAUREN BOEBERT FROM COLORADO, A REPUBLICAN, WHO HAD BEEN SORT OF ON THE FENCE AS SHE IS OBVIOUSLY VERY SUPPORTIVE OF TRUMP.
BUT SHE ALSO WANTS TRANSPARENCY IN THIS CASE.
SHE DID NOT GIVE IN TO THE PRESSURE.
SHE SIGNED THIS DISCHARGE OF PETITION.
SO NOW THE FULL VOTE WILL BE NEXT WEEK.
BUT I AM TOLD THERE IS A FULL PRESSURE CAMPAIGN FROM THE WHITE HOUSE TO TRY AND NOT LET THERE BE A WAVE OF HOUSE REPUBLICANS VOTING TO RELEASE THESE FILES, BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE IS TRYING TO NOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.
AGAIN, THE BOTTOM LINE HERE, WHAT DID THE PRESIDENT KNOW ABOUT JEFFREY EPSTEIN'S CONDUCT?
AND IF IT WAS NOTHING, WHY ARE THEY GOING TO SUCH GREAT LENGTH HERE IS TO TRY AND STOP THIS.
AGAIN, WE SHOULD SAY THE PRESIDENT HAS NOT BEEN ACCUSED OR CHARGED OF ANY WRONGDOING.
THIS IS A FRIENDSHIP FROM LONG AGO.
BUT HE, LIKE MANY OTHER FAMOUS PEOPLE AT THE TIME, HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH EPSTEIN, AND MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING HIS OWN SUPPORTERS WHO STARTED ALL OF THIS, WHO TALKED ABOUT RELEASING ALL THESE FILES, AND THE PRESIDENT, HE WAS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT FOR CAMPAIGN LAST YEAR, HE AGREED TO RELEASE THE FILES.
OF COURSE NOW HE IS IN POWER.
HE HAS NOT AGREED TO IT.
SO THAT IS IN A NUTSHELL WHY THIS HAS BECOME AN ISSUE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.
>> AND JUST ALLY, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE REPRESENTATIVE BOEBERT WHO WAS TAKEN INTO THE SITUATION ROOM OVER THIS.
WHAT IS THE SITUATION WITH THOSE MAGA REPUBLICANS?
IS IT CAUSING A FISSURE, OR ARE THEY SORT OF OVER IT AND TALKING ABOUT OTHER ISSUES?
AND WOULD THEY, I DON'T KNOW, WORK WITH DEMOCRATS TO BRING --TO BRING THIS TO A COMPLETE VOTE TO RELEASE ALL THESE THINGS?
>> CHRISTIANE, THAT'S BEEN SO INTERESTING ABOUT THIS.
THE POLITICS ARE A BIT UPSIDE DOWN OF WHAT THEY USED TO BE.
DEMOCRATS USED TO REALLY NOT TALK ABOUT THIS AT ALL.
THIS WAS A MAGA ISSUE IF YOU WILL, ISSUE IMPORTANT TO THE PRESIDENT'S BASE.
NOW THAT THE PRESIDENT IS IN POWER, IT'S FLIPPED SOMEWHAT.
BUT FOR SOME OF THOSE HOUSE REPUBLICANS, THEY STILL BELIEVE THAT TRANSPARENCY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT EFFORT HERE.
NANCY MAYS FROM SOUTH CAROLINA, LAUREN BOEBERT FROM COLORADO, THOMAS MASSIE FROM KENTUCKY, ALL REPUBLICANS ARE LEADING THE CHARGE THAT THEY SAY THESE FILES SHOULD BE RELEASED.
SO IT'S NOT AS TOXIC OR A FRIEND OF MINE IN THE MAGA WORLD, IF YOU WILL, AMONG SOME, BUT AMONG MANY, OTHERS, THEY WANT THERE TO BE TRANSPARENCY HERE.
SO IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE THIS EVER REALLY GOING AWAY.
AND THE PRESIDENT MOVING BEYOND THIS UNTIL THERE IS MORE KNOWN ABOUT THIS.
AND AGAIN, THE SIMPLE QUESTION IS WHY NOT RELEASE THE FILES?
THE PRESIDENT CAMPAIGNED ON THAT.
HIS SUPPORTERS WANTED IT AT THE TIME.
AND NOW SUDDENLY HE'S CALLING IT A HOAX.
BUT WE HAVE HEARD THAT WORD BEFORE, AND USUALLY WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CALLING SOMETHING A HOAX, THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY THAN THAT.
SO WE'LL SEE WHAT THAT HOUSE VOTE HAPPENS NEXT WEEK.
AND CHRISTIANE, MY EYE IS ON HOW MANY REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO VOTE, REALLY, AGAINST THE WISHES OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND VOTE TO RELEASE THE FULL FILES OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.
>> JEFF ZELENY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BRINGING US UP TO DATE.
NOW MEANTIME, ALSO IN THE UNITED STATES, NEW YORK'S MAYOR- ELECT IS GETTING READY TO LEAD THE CITY AFTER HIS HISTORIC WIN.
ZOHRAN MAMDANI'S UNPRECEDENTED CAMPAIGN CAPTIVATED PEOPLE NOT JUST IN AMERICA, BUT ALSO AROUND THE WORLD.
HIS RELENTLESS FOCUS ON AFFORDABILITY AND HIS EFFECTIVE SOCIAL MEDIA MESSAGING GALVANIZED YOUNGER VOTERS IN PARTICULAR.
THE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST IS PART OF A LARGER MOVEMENT OF LEFT WING POLITICIANS TRYING TO TAKE ON THE RIGHT.
IT'S A TACTIC BEING EMPLOYED HERE IN THE UK ALSO BY THE GREEN PARTY.
AND ZACH POLANSKI JUST TOOK OVER AS THEIR NEW LEADER.
AND SINCE THEN, THE PARTY HAS SURGED IN THE POLLS AND MEMBERSHIP HAS DOUBLED.
REACTING TO ING ING ZOHRAN MAMDANI WIN.
WITH ALL OF THIS DIVISION WE SEE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THE PILE-ON WHICH YOU REMEMBER WELL ABOUT MAMDANI AT THE BEGINNING FROM THOSE OPPOSED TO HIS CANDIDACY IN THE ESTABLISHMENT, DO YOU THINK THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE SOMETHING OTHER THAN RIGHT-WING POPULIST NATIONALISM, LEFT-WING, I DON'T KNOW, IS MAKING A STAND, CAN MAKE A STAND?
>> I THINK IT ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO BE, OTHERWISE OUR PLANET IS UNDER THREAT.
AND PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED AN ALTERNATIVE, SOME OF OUR POOREST COMMUNITIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE UNDER THREAT TOO.
I THINK FIRST OF ALL IT'S IMPORTANT TO DEFINE THE WORD POPULISM.
AS I SEE IT, IT'S THE 99% VERSUS THE 1%.
THE 1% BEING MULTIBILLIONAIRES AND ELITES WHO HAVE TAKEN UP WEALTH AND ASSETS.
I BELIEVE IT'S TIME TO TAKE THEM BACK.
NOW THE 99% IS AN INCREDIBLY UNIFYING MESSAGE, BECAUSE ACTUALLY, THAT'S ABOUT WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, MEDIUM BUSINESS OWNERS.
SOCIAL MEDIA IS EXCELLENT.
>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT IT.
AND HIS COMMUNICATION, HE IS AN EXCEPTIONAL COMMUNICATOR.
YOU CAN REALLY FEEL WHAT HE IS TRANSMITTING AND IT COMES OFF AS AUTHENTIC.
HOWEVER, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE MESSAGE HE IS ACTUALLY SAYING WHICH IS A MESSAGE ABOUT INEQUALITY AND AFFORDABILITY.
IF YOU HAVE GREAT SOCIAL MEDIA BUT YOU DON'T HAVE A GOOD MESSAGE, YOU'RE JUST EXPOSING THE VAPIDITY THAT WE HAVE WITH SO MANY MODERN POLITICIANS.
IF YOU HAVE A GREAT MESSAGE BUT NO COMMUNICATIONS STYLE, NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAR YOU.
WHAT HE HAS DONE IS COMBINED BOTH.
>> THE LATEST OR NEWEST MEMBER OF THE GREEN PARTY, AND ITS MEMBERSHIP IS DOUBLED, YOU HAVE FOUR SEATS IN PARLIAMENT WHICH IS NOT A LOT, GIVEN WHAT THE OTHER BIGGER PARTIES HAVE.
YOU'RE NOT LIKELY TO BE PRIME MINISTER ANY TIME SOON.
BUT HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN YOUR RISE?
>> I MEAN, IT'S BEEN A PHENOMENAL MOMENT FOR THE GREEN PARTY AND A REALLY EXCITING MOMENT FOR THE COUNTRY.
SINCE I GOT ELECTED, WE DOUBLED OUR MEMBERSHIP.
TODAY THERE WAS A SECOND HOLDUP IN SECOND PLACE.
THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE RISE VERY, VERY QUICKLY.
NOW POLLS, MEMBERS, THEY DON'T ULTIMATELY MEAN ANYTHING UNLESS YOU WIN SEATS.
I ACCEPT THE CHALLENGE.
I WANT TO MAKE SURE THE NEXT ELECTION WE'RE MOBILIZING TO WIN SEATS.
THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF FOLKS ABOUT 18 TO 24-YEAR-OLDS ARE JOINING THE GREEN PARTY IN HUGE NUMBERS.
I SHOULD SAY EVERY TIME I GO ON TV AND SAY THIS, I GET SO MANY MESSAGES FROM PEOPLE OVER 50 AND SAY DON'T FORGET ABOUT US.
WE HAVE JOINED THE GREEN PARTY TOO.
AND ACTUALLY, WE ARE SICK OF THE OLD PARTY POLITICS.
WE'RE VERY, VERY WORRIED ABOUT NIGEL FARAGE ON THE RIGHT AND THE RISE OF DIVISION AND HATRED.
AND THEY'RE REALLY EXCITED BY THE POLITICS OF HOPE, COMMUNITY, AND THE POLITICS THAT SAYS LET'S LOWER OUR BILLS AND LET'S TAX BILLIONAIRES.
I THINK THAT'S A MESSAGE THAT WORKS WITH LOT OF POLITICIANS.
>> SO OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE JUST HATE IT HEN THEY HEAR ABOUT A WEALTH TAX, AND PEOPLE SAY IT'S GOING TO DRIVE THE WEALTH-MAKERS AWAY.
IT'S GOING TO SUFFER, THE ECONOMY, JOBS AND ALL THE REST OF IT.
BUT I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU SAY YOU MIGHT HAVE IDEAS, BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A MESSAGE, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK.
CERTAINLY THE RIGHT, AND YOU CAN SEE WITH MAGA, YOU CAN SEE WITH BREXIT AND EVEN REFORM, THEY HAVE A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE.
IT'S VERY DISCIPLINED.
IT'S ABOUT IMMIGRATION.
IT'S ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE ECONOMY, IT'S ABOUT ESSENTIALLY ALSO FEAR.
AND IT APPEARS THAT THE LEFT WING HAS NOT HAD SUCH A CLEAR MESSAGE TO ACTUALLY GO HEAD TO HEAD.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S CHANGING?
>> YEAH, IT'S SOMETHING I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT A LONG TIME.
I THINK IF YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT, THERE ARE VERY POWERFUL COMMUNICATORS ON THE RIGHT.
AND YOU IS A TO GIVE THEM CREDIT.
>> YEAH, THEY REALLY ARE.
>> I WOULD SAY THEY'RE NOT BASED IN INFORMATION.
THEY'RE BASED ON MISINFORMATION AND THEY HAVE POWERFUL STORIES THAT EMOTIONALLY CONNECT, AND THAT'S HOW THEY THEY THINK CHANG PEOPLE'S MINDS.
ON THE LEFT I WOULD ARGUE FOR A LONG TIME ACROSS THE WORLD THE LEFT GETS VERY INVOLVED WITH DATA AND SPREADSHEETS.
THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.
YOU TO BE FACTUAL IN WHAT YOU'RE TALK ABOUT.
BUT IF YOU STAY THERE AND YOU DON'T ALSO HAVE AN EMOTIVE STORY, THEN PEOPLE GET PULLED IN BY THE FEAR EVERY SINGLE TIME.
HOPE IS AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL EMOTION, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE HOPE COMBINED WITH DELIVERY, AND THEY HOLD SWEETER POLICIES THAT ARE GOING TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S MATERIAL LIVING CONDITIONS.
I BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT WE'VE GOT ON THE LEFT NOW IN THE UK WITH THE GREEN PARTY AND IN WALES.
BUT I'M SEEING IT RIGHT ACROSS THE WORLD.
WE SEE IT WITH ZORAN, WITH CLAUDIA IN MEXICO, LOTS OF SOCIALISTS OR LEFT-WING PROGRESSIVES AROUND THE WORLD, AND WE ARE STARTING TO WIN.
>> DO YOU COUNT IN THE CENTRIST WHO WON AGAINST THE FAR RIGHT IN THE NETHERLANDS?
>> ANYONE WHO DEFEATS THE FAR RIGHT IS SOMEONE, THAT'S A CELEBRATION I HAVE.
I DO ULTIMATELY WORRY, THOUGH, THAT CENTRISM, PEOPLE KIND OF BUY INTO THOSE IDEAS, I DO WORRY THAT THEY MIGHT HOLD POWER FOR A FEW YEARS, BUT IF YOU DON'T CHANGE PEOPLE'S LIVING CONDITIONS, SOMETHING EVEN WORSE THAN THE PREVIOUS FAR RIGHT WILL TURN UP.
AND WE JUST KEEP GOING INTO THIS SPIRAL.
I THINK THAT'S A LESSON KEIR STARMER REALLY NEEDS TO LEARN RIGHT NOW.
HE WENT ON A MESSAGE OF CHANGE IN THE UK BUT NOT A LOT HAS CHANGED.
WE'VE HAD 14 YEARS OF CONSERVATIVE UNDERINVESTMENT.
LABOR CONTINUED THAT SAME PROGRAM.
SO WHAT HE IS DOING IS HE IS HANDING THIS COUNTRY ON A PLATE TO NIGEL FARAGE.
AND EVEN IF HE STOPS HIM TEMPORARILY, SOMETHING WORSE THAN NIGEL FARAGE WILL TURN UP.
THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT WE WIN THESE ARGUMENTS ON WEALTH TAX.
COMING BACK TO THE RESEARCH AND SCIENCE, ALL OF IT SHOWS AN UNEQUAL SOCIETY IS BAD FOR EVERYONE, INCLUDING MULTIMILLIONAIRES AND BILLIONAIRES.
AND A FAIRER, MORE EQUAL SOCIETY IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE SUPER RICH, BECAUSE A HAPPIER, HEALTHIER SOCIETY IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE'S WELL-BEING.
>> THAT'S ONE WAY OF PUTTING IT.
ON CLIMATE, WHICH IS YOUR THING, THE GREEN PARTY, YOU KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TAKEN A VIEW ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, THE CLIMATE CRISIS.
I JUST WANT TO PLAY, TO REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT HE SAID ABOUT CLIMATE AT THE U. N. THIS PAST SEPTEMBER.
>> CLIMATE CHANGE, IT GOES HIGHER OR LOWER, WHATEVER THE HELL HAPPENS, THERE IS CLIMATE CHANGE.
IT'S THE GREATEST CON JOB EVER PERPETRATED ON THE WORLD, IN MY OPINION.
CLIMATE CHANGE, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, YOU'RE INVOLVED IN THAT.
NO MORE GLOBAL WARMING.
NO MORE GLOBAL COOLING.
ALL OF THESE PREDICTIONS MADE BY THE UNITED NATIONS AND MANY OTHERS OFTEN FOR BAD REASONS WERE WRONG.
THEY WERE MADE BY STUPID PEOPLE.
AND OF COURSE, THEIR COUNTRY'S FORTUNES AND GWYNN THOSE SAME COUNTRIES NO CHANCE FOR SUCCESS.
IF YOU DON'T GET AWAY FROM THIS GREEN SCAM, YOUR COUNTRY IS GOING TO FAIL.
>> SO I WANT YOUR REACTION TO THAT.
BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF NOT JUST THE MORAL CAUSE OF CLIMATE --THE PLANET, BUT ALSO THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY TO LIFT A NATION'S ECONOMY BY GOING INTO THIS NEW GREEN TECHNOLOGY.
YOU KNOW, I HAD VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE ON THE SHOW YESTERDAY, AND HE SAID WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY TALK ABOUT THE SUBSIDIES OR GOVERNMENTS GIVE TO THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY, FOR INSTANCE?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK YOUR QUESTION IS SO WELL PUT.
BECAUSE IF WE REMOVE THOSE SUBSIDIES TO FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES, WE CAN USE THAT SAME MONEY IN JUST TRANSITION.
ALL I MEAN BY THAT IS INVESTING IN THE NEW INDUSTRIES AND SOLAR AND WINDS.
AND MAKING SURE THAT IF PEOPLE LOSE THEIR JOBS, THEY HAVE DIFFERENT JOBS TO GO INTO.
THE BEST TIME TO DO THIS HAS BEEN A DECADE WERE TO AGO.
WHAT WE CAN DO IS WORKING WITH THE TRADE UNIONS AND WORKERS MAKING SURE WE PUT THE WORKERS AT THE HEART OF THOSE PLANS RIGHT NOW SO THEY CAN CODESIGN WHAT THAT FUTURE LOOKS LIKE.
IN TERMS OF DONALD TRUMP, LOOK, I'M A POLITICIAN.
SO I ALWAYS WANT TO BE AS DIPLOMATIC AS POSSIBLE, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO CALL HIM ANYTHING BUT A FOOL.
THIS IS MAN WHO --THIS IS SOCIOPATHIC BEHAVIOR.
HE IS SAILING OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN DOWN THE RIVER FOR PROFIT.
HE IS VERY EPITOME OF SOMEONE WHO IS KNEE-DEEP AND INVESTED WITH FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES.
HE'LL SAY ANYTHING AT ANY MOMENT, WHO IS SCIENCE DENYING, WHO IS TOXIC, WHO IS MISOGYNISTIC AND RACIST AND IT'S FAIR I'M NOT A HUGE FAN OF DONALD TRUMP.
>> IT'S PRETTY CLEAR.
I WANT TO ASK A FINAL QUESTION.
MAMDANI MADE WAVES BEING THE FIRST MUSLIM MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY.
YOU'RE JEWISH.
YOUR FAMILY CHANGED THE NAME TO POLLDON.
YOU CHANGED IT BACK TO POLANSKI.
IT'S A MAJOR PROBLEM IN POLITICS AND IT APPEARS IN DOMESTIC POLITICS.
IT WAS BIG PART OF THE NEW YORK CITY RACE.
HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE THAT AS AN ISSUE?
>> I THINK I ALWAYS MAKE SURE THAT I CENTER PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING RACISM EVERY DAY OR INDEED THIS OFTEN GETS CONFLATED WITH THE GENOCIDE IN GAZA AND TO MAKE SURE THAT I STAND WITH THE PLIGHT OF THE PALESTINIANS.
IN TERMS OF MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I DO LOTS OF ANTISEMITISM ONLINE, BUT ACTUALLY I FIND I STAY FOCUSED AS I DO WITH ANY HATE AND GO WHAT AM I IN POLITICS FOR?
I'M IN IT TO EMPOWER PEOPLE, TO WORK WITH GRASSROOTS COMMUNITIES.
IT'S NOT ABOUT ME AT ALL.
I THINK THE WORK I'M MOST PROUD OF, THOUGH, IS WHEN I WORK WITH PEOPLE LIKE MY MUSLIM LEADER IN THE GREEN PARTY.
I THINK THAT'S A VERY POWERFUL MESSAGE TO HAVE A JEWISH LEADER AND A MUSLIM DEPUTY LEADER BECAUSE WE BOTH RECOGNIZE ANTISEMITISM AND ANTI-MUSLIM ARE TWO SIDES.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NO TO BROADWAY.
SAMUEL BECKETT'S "WAITING FOR GODOT" WAS FIRST PERFORMED IN THE 1950s.
BUT DECADES LATER, THE SURREAL TRAGIC COMEDY CONTINUES TO CAPTIVATE THEATER GOERS, AND THIS TIME A STAR-STUDDED CAST IS GRABBING THEIR ATTENTION.
HOLLYWOOD ACTORS KEANU REEVES AND ALEX WINTER.
THE BILL AND TED FILM CO- STARS REUNITE ON STAGE AS THE CENTRAL CHARACTERS VLADIMIR AND ESTRAGON.
AND THEY'RE JOINING ME NOW FROM THE HUDSON THEATER IN MANHATTAN.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> HELLO.
>> HI, HI.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
>> IT'S A GREAT PLEASURE.
NOW --SHOULD WE JUST PUT THE PRONUNCIATION TO BED.
I CALL IT GODOT.
WHAT DO YOU CALL IT?
>> GOD-OH.
>> KEANU?
>> GOD-OH.
>> ALL RIGHT.
I'M NOT GOING ASK YOU WHY.
>> WE UNDERSTAND.
WE UNDERSTAND.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> NO, NO.
IT'S --IT COMES INHERENTLY WITH THE PLAY, RIGHT?
>> YEAH.
>> NORTH AMERICA, IF YOU READ IT, OFTEN TIME IT'S GODOT.
WHEN YOU PLAY THE PART, DO THE PLAY, FROM OTHER PERFORMERS IN THE PAST CONNECTED TO BECKETT AND OTHERWISE, IT'S GOD- OH.
AND THERE ARE OTHER ELEMENTS IN THE PLAY THAT SUGGEST THAT IN THE PERFORMING OF THE PLAY THE PRONUNCIATION GOD-OH WORKS MUCH BETTER WITH THE TEXT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
I THINK PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER READ THE PLAY OR SEEN THE PLAY ALWAYS KNOWS THE TITLE, "WAITING FOR GODOT," HAS BECOME A COMMON PARLANCE IN EVERYDAY LIFE.
BUT FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER SEEN, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THIS PLAY?
>> I MEAN, IT IS A PLAY ABOUT TWO VERY CLOSE AND OLD FRIENDS WHO ARE TRAPPED IN AN INDETERMINATE LOCATION IN AN INDETERMINATE TIME WHO ARE TRYING TO FIND A REASON TO LIVE AND SURVIVE.
AND IT'S A PLAY THAT INTERROGATORIES SORT OF THE QUESTIONS OF MEANING AND LIFE AND SPIRITUALITY AND FRIENDSHIP.
AND MANY, MANY OTHER THINGS.
>> AND IT'S A COMEDY.
>> AND IT'S A TRAGEDY.
>> IT'S A TRAGIC COMEDY.
>> IT IS INDEED.
>> I FEEL LIKE LETTING YOU CARRY ON, BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD PERFORMANCE RIGHT HERE.
BUT LISTEN, YOU TALK ABOUT A FRIENDSHIP.
AND OBVIOUSLY, THE ORIGIN STORY IS BILL AND TED KIND DOVE BECKETT.
CASTING YOU AS VLADIMIR AND ESTRAGON EITHER MAKES PERFECT SENSE OR NO SENSE.
WHOSE IDEA WAS IT TO BRING YOU TOGETHER TO THE PLAY, AND SERIOUSLY, HOW DID IT GET TO BROADWAY?
>> THAT WAS MY BRILLIANT IDEA.
AND ABOUT THREE AND A HALF YEARS AGO, I RANG UP ALEX AND SAID HEY, DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS PLAY.
AND YOU SAID -- >> I DO.
>> AND THEN HE SAID WE NEED A DIRECTOR.
AND I GUESS JAMIE LLOYD.
AND WE INVITED HIM TO MEET.
AND WE MET IN NEW YORK CITY.
>> YEAH.
SO WE HAD TIME.
WE'VE HAD SEVERAL YEARS TO DO THE WORK ON THE PLAY.
WE BOTH KNEW IT WAS A MONUMENTAL THING TO DO.
WE BOTH HAVE DONE THEATER.
AND ARE VERY BIG FANS OF BECKETT.
WE WANTED TO SORT OF BITE OFF THIS THING.
AND JAMIE LLOYD HAD DONE A TON OF WORK WITH PINTER, AND HAS DONE A GREAT JOB OF BRINGING CLASSICS INTO THE MODERN ERA AS WELL AS WELL AS DOING MODERN PLAYS.
IT WAS GOOD FIT.
IT PROVED TO BE A VERY GOOD FIT, THANK YOU.
>> I'M GOING PLAY A LITTLE SNIPPET.
WE'VE GIVEN A FEW LITTLE CLIPS.
SO I'M GOING PLAY A LITTLE BIT.
AND THEN I'M GOING TO GET TO YOU SAY IT TOOK A LONG TIME TO STUDY UP AND PREPARE 20 DO THIS.
I FIND THAT QUITE FASCINATING.
LET'S LISTEN TO THIS FIRST.
>> YOU MUST HAVE HAD A VISION.
>> WHAT?
>> YOU MUST HAVE HAD A VISION!
>> NO NEED TO SHOUT.
>> DO YOU -- >> DO YOU?
>> OH PARDON ME.
>> CARRY ON.
>> AFTER YOU.
>> I INTERRUPTED YOU.
>> ON THE CONTRARY.
>> OH, CEREMONIOUS APPRENTICESHIP.
>> PUNCTILIOUS PIG.
>> FINISH YOUR PHRASE.
>> MORON!
THAT'S THE IDEA.
LET'S ABUSE EACH OTHER.
>> MORON!
>> VERMIN.
>> ABORTION.
>> SEWER RAT.
>> CRETIN.
>> CRITIC.
>> IT'S ALL GETTING BIG LAUGHS FROM THE AUDIENCE.
BUT WHAT DOES THE SCENE TELL US ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP, OR AT LEAST THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN VLADIMIR AND ESTRAGON?
WHO ARE THEY TO EACH OTHER?
>> THERE'S LOVE, COMPANIONSHIP.
>> HISTORY.
>> HISTORY.
>> AND A SENSE OF SURVIVING TOGETHER.
AND BEING TOGETHER TOO LONG, FEAR OF MORTALITY I THINK.
I'M AFRAID OF YOUR HEALTH AND YOU'RE AFRAID OF MINE.
WE'RE REFUGEES, I THINK IS SORT OF QUITE CLEAR.
THE THINGS THE TEXT GIVES YOU IS THERE A REFUGEE COMPONENT TO WHO WE ARE AND THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN.
WE HAVE PERFORMED TOGETHER.
THAT'S IN THE TEXT.
>> YOU'RE A PHILOSOPHER AND I'M KIND OF NATURE.
>> UH-HUH.
>> LYING BEING IN PHILOSOPHY, THING IS A KIND OF SIDE TWO SIDES OF A COIN AND A WAY OF BEING, POINTS OF VIEW.
>> YOU'RE ROOTED TO THE EARTH AND MY HEAD IS SORT OF UP THERE.
>> YEAH.
>> LITERALLY.
>> DO YOU KNOW, YOU'VE JUST --YOU'VE JUST ACTUALLY ACTED OUT RIGHT NOW SOMETHING I READ IN THE RESEARCH THAT JAMIE LLOYD, THE DIRECTOR, WHEN YOU WERE PRACTICING AND READING, HE TALKED ABOUT ALEX LOOKING WITH LOVE AND FONDNESS AS REEVES PERFORMS A SCENE.
AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY A COOL THING FOR A DIRECTOR TO TAKE FROM YOU TWO FRIENDS AND HIS TWO STARS.
HOW DOES YOUR LONG --TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT TO GET THIS RIGHT?
AND HOW DID THE FRIENDSHIP AND THE LOVE THAT YOU HAD FOR EACH OTHER HELP?
>> WELL, THE FRIENDSHIP HELPS IN A NUMBER OF WAYS, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH WE TRUST EACH OTHER AND WE HAVE A PERFORMING BOND AND A FRIENDSHIP BOND AND THE PLAY IS ABOUT FRIENDS.
SO WE CAN USE THAT IN THE PLAY.
BUT IT ALSO MEANS EMBARKING ON THIS VERY INTENSE JOURNEY TOGETHER MEANT WE WERE DOING IT WITH SOMEONE WHO YOU KNEW YOU LIKED AND GOT ALONG WITH AND WOULD BE LAUGHING DURING THE TIMES WHEN YOU WANT TO CRY.
[ LAUGHTER ] >> CRYING WITH LAUGHTER.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> SO THERE IS A LOT TO IT, FRANKLY.
THAT BOTH INFORMS THE PLAY AND ALSO JUST MAKES THE PROCESS ITSELF EASIER.
>> WAS IT DIFFICULT?
I MEAN, I THINK SAMUEL BECKETT IS KIND OF INTIMIDATING JUST TO READ AND TRY TO FIGURE HIM OUT, NOT TO MENTION PLAYING THIS ICONIC PLAY.
YOU CAME TO REDDING, I THINK.
YOU WENT TO THE LIBRARY.
YOU SEARCHED FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS THROUGH THE ARCHIVES.
AND AS YOU SAY, IT TOOK A LONG TIME.
HOW DIFFICULT, INVOLVED, INTENSE WAS THE PRACTICE BEFORE YOU EVEN GOT TO THE THEATER?
>> AND FUN!
>> AND FUN, OF COURSE.
>> AND FUN.
>> YEAH.
>> I MEAN, IT'S EXTRAORDINARY TO DO THAT RESEARCH, RIGHT?
THE ARTISTS THAT WE SPOKE TO, THE ARCHIVISTS, THE BIOGRAPHER OF BECKETT, ACTORS WHO HAVE PERFORMED IT.
>> PEOPLE WHO KNEW BECKETT WHO HAD WORKED WITH HIM AS ACTORS AND COLLEAGUES.
YEAH, IT WAS VERY, VERY REWARDING.
IT WAS A --WE WERE LUCKY.
IN THIS BUSINESS, IT'S RARE THAT YOU HAVE YEARS TO WORK ON SOMETHING.
AND OBVIOUSLY, WE WERE DOING OTHER THINGS AT THE SAME TIME.
BUT WE REALLY TOOK THE TIME TO DIVE INTO THIS.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU KIND OF HAVE TO THROW THAT STUFF AWAY ON SOME OF IT.
IT ENDS UP BEING YOUR SYSTEM.
SO YOU'RE NOT DISCARDING IT ALL.
BUT YOU REALLY HAVE TO DO THE PLAY ITSELF.
AND SO THAT HELPED US WHEN WE GOT TO DAY ONE OF REHEARSAL WITH JAMIE.
WE HAD THIS NICE BEDROCK OF STUFF THAT WAS JUST UNDERNEATH EVERYTHING ELSE.
AND WE WENT OFF AND STARTED PLAYING VLADIMIR AND ESTRAGON.
>> AND I THINK PART OF THAT TOO IS THE GROUNDED APPROACH THAT YOU AND I TOOK FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF TRYING TO GROUND THE PLAY, GROUND THE CHARACTERS.
>> YEAH.
>> IN A WAY.
>> YEAH.
TO MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE TWO ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS AND NOT LIKE ABSURDIST ARCHETYPES WHICH CAN HAPPEN SOMETIMES IN THE PRODUCTION OF THIS PLAY.
>> NOTHING TO BE DONE.
>> WE HAVE A NICE BIG SHOT OF THE THEATER.
IN FACT, WE'RE LOOKING AT IT RIGHT NOW.
AND BEHIND YOU IS THAT TUNNEL, WHICH WAS CLEAR IN THE CLIP THAT WE PLAYED, BECAUSE YOU'RE IN THAT TUNNEL.
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THAT REPRESENTS, BUT I LOVE THIS COMMENT FROM ONE OF THE CRITICS.
"IT WAS CIRCLING THE DRAIN OF LIFE, WAITING FOR A FATAL FLUSH. "
THAT'S "WAITING FOR GODOT" AND VLADIMIR AND ESTRAGON.
I JUST FOUND THAT REALLY VISUAL.
>> I GUESS THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE PLAY.
>> NO, THEY SAID A LOT OF OTHER GOOD THINGS.
I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY DESCRIPTIVE.
>> WHAT ABOUT THAT TUNNEL?
>> IT IS.
I MEAN, WE LOVE -- >> KIND OF UNUSUAL.
>> I GUESS THERE IS THE PRACTICAL SIDE OF PERFORMING IN IT.
BUT I THINK ALSO JUST THE SYMBOLIC PROMPT, THE SYMBOLIC INVITATION OF TRYING TO --YOU KNOW, YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE CREATIVE PAUSE, AND SHARING THAT IDEA AND THE QUOTE OF THAT.
BUT THE PAUSE OF LIKE CONTEMPLATING WHAT IS IT, HOW DOES IT -- WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU, HOW DOES IT AFFECT -- WHAT DOES IT MAKE YOU THINK OF, ONE THINK OF, YOU KNOW.
>> YEAH.
YEAH, IT CREATES AMBIGUITY, BUT FOR AN ACTOR, IT ACTUALLY CREATES SPECIFIC PARAMETERS THAT ARE QUITE CONSTRAINED.
AND THOSE ARE USEFUL, BECAUSE THESE ARE TWO CHARACTERS WHO ARE TRAPPED IN TIME.
THEY'RE TRAPPED WITH EACH OTHER.
THEY'RE TRAPPED WITH THEIR THOUGHTS AND THE AUDIENCE IS TRAPPED.
AND IT CREATES A KIND OF LITERAL TRAP.
>> A FOCI, RIGHT?
IT MADE US BE VERY SPECIFIC IN A WAY.
>> YEAH.
AND IT'S A STAGE THAT JAMIE WAS LEANING INTO IT ALSO LOOKS SOMEWHAT LIKE A VAUDEVILLE CLAM SHELL.
THERE WE ARE WITH OUR BOWLER HATS AND WE PLAY AIR GUITAR AND WE'RE TWO CHARACTERS THAT HAVE DONE PHYSICAL COMEDY TOGETHER JUST AS THE CHARACTERS IN THE PLAY HAVE.
THERE IS AN VAUDEVILLE ASPECT TO IT AS WELL.
IT'S A VERY CLEVER DESIGN.
I'M VERY TAKEN BY WHAT THEY CAME UP WITH.
>> SO YOU JUST MENTIONED AIR GUITAR.
THAT'S I ASSUME A DELIBERATE REFERENCE BACK TO BILL AND TED, I DON'T KNOW.
HOW DID THAT COME UP?
DOES THE AUDIENCE RECOGNIZE IT?
>> OH, YES, OH, YES, THEY RECOGNIZE IT.
>> AND DO THEY LOVE IT?
>> BUT SOME PEOPLE.
>> I MIGHT NOT HAVE.
>> IT'S A WONDERFUL GESTURE.
YOU MIGHT NOT.
>> I'M GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP.
>> WATCH THAT ON A RAINY SUNDAY.
>> EXACTLY.
NOW I'M GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP OF "BILL AND TED'S EXCELLENT ADVENTURE" FROM THE ORIGINAL TRAILER.
>> HOW'S IT GOING ROYAL UGLY DUDES?
>> PUT THEM IN THE IRON MAIDEN.
>> EXCELLENT!
>> EXECUTE THEM.
>> BOO THIS.
>> HOW'S IT GOING, DUDE?
>> I MEAN, HUGELY POPULAR.
NONE OBVIOUS CONNECTION FROM THERE TO WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW.
HOW DOES THAT -- >> AIR.
>> YOU STILL?
SO IT IS AN OBVIOUS CONNECTION.
LISTEN, I WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING.
YOU'VE TWICE SAID, ALEX, THIS IS ABOUT REFUGEES.
YOU ARE REFUGEES.
AND AS YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY IN YOUR COUNTRY AND CERTAINLY IN, YOU KNOW, IN THE WEST RIGHT NOW, REFUGEES ARE DEMONIZED.
THEY'RE DEPORTED.
THEY'RE SHUT OUT.
AND I WAS REALLY INTERESTED TO KNOW THAT SAMUEL BECKETT WROTE THIS PLAY ORIGINALLY IN FRANCE.
HE HIMSELF FOUGHT IN THE RESISTANCE WITH HIS FRENCH WIFE.
HE WAS INCREDIBLY LUCKY TO ESCAPE WITH HIS LIFE FROM THE NAZIS.
I MEAN, IT'S A REALLY PROFOUND ORIGIN STORY.
IT'S REALLY INCREDIBLE TO READ THE BACK STORY OF IT.
AND I JUST WONDERED HOW THAT RESONATES WITH YOU TODAY PERFORMING THIS IN NEW YORK RIGHT NOW.
>> YOU KNOW, KEANU AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS QUITE A BIT, AND WE TALKED TO A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN THE PLAY OR PRODUCED THE PLAY AT TIMES OF GREAT STRIFE OR CIVIC UNREST OR WAR.
AND WE'RE VERY HAPPY THAT THIS PLAY DOESN'T SPECIFICALLY KIND OF BRACKET THE TIMES THAT WE'RE IN, WHICH WE FEEL WOULD DIMINISH THE SCOPE OF THE PLAY.
BUT, OF COURSE, IT SPEAKS TO AUTOCRACY AND FASCISM AND STATE VIOLENCE AND SURVEILLANCE.
THE STUFF IS IN THE TEXT.
SO YOU CAN'T NOT FEEL IT, AND I THINK WHENEVER THE PLAY IS PUT ON, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE TIMES ARE FRAUGHT, WHICH LET'S FACE IT, IN MOST TIMES ARE FRAUGHT FOR SOMEONE, IT'S GOING TO BE FELT QUITE DEEPLY IN THAT WAY.
SO OF COURSE WE FEEL THAT.
OF COURSE WE DO.
>> WE LOST OUR RIGHTS.
>> WE GOT RID OF THEM.
IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THE TEXT.
>> I WAS IN SARAJEVO IN '93 WHEN SUSAN SONNTAG PUT ON "WAITING FOR GODOT" IN SARAJEVO, UNDER SIEGE BY THE BOSNIAN SERB FORCES.
SHE SAID THEN IT WAS HER WAY OF PITCHING IN OR DOING SOMETHING TANGIBLE.
DO YOU FEEL AT ALL --AT ALL LIKE THAT IN DOING THIS NOW, KEANU?
I DON'T KNOW.
IS THERE SOMETHING --IT'S SUCH A FAMOUS PLAY AND IT HAS SO MUCH MEANING, EVEN THOUGH IT'S KIND OF MEANINGLESS.
>> YOU KNOW, MYSELF AND ALEX AND MICHAEL PATRICK THORNTON AND BRANDON DIRIDON, THE FOUR OF US, VLADIMIR, ESTRAGON, LUCKY, POTSO, WE HUDDLE UP BEFORE EACH PERFORMANCE.
AND OFTEN PART OF THAT HUDDLING UP IS SPEAKING ABOUT THE AUDIENCE AND THE REACTIONS THAT EACH OF US ARE GETTING INDIVIDUALLY FROM PEOPLE, FRIENDS, FAMILY, FROM STRANGERS ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE OF WATCHING THE PLAY.
AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S --I WAS CRYING, I WAS LAUGHING, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.
>> I'VE SEEN THE FOUR PLAYS AND I GET SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM IT EVERY TIME I SEE IT.
>> YEAH.
>> SO THIS KIND OF FEEDBACK IS WORTHWHILE.
IT'S WHY - -AND WE SPEAK ABOUT WHY ARE WE HERE, WHAT ARE WE DOING.
AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PLAY, US PERFORMING IT, AND THE AUDIENCE.
AND THERE SEEMS TO BE A WONDERFUL EXCHANGE.
>> YEAH.
AND I DON'T THINK SO MUCH -- I KNOW THIS ISN'T REALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I DON'T THINK SO MUCH OF ACTING IS ACTIVISM.
I MEAN I THINK WHAT SONNTAG WAS DOING WITH THAT PLAY WAS SPECIFIC IN A SPECIFIC MILIEU.
BUT I THINK FOR US, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS ACTIVISM.
I MEAN, SOME OF US ARE DOING ACTIVISM RIGHT NOW, AND IT'S NOT THIS.
BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THEATER THAT IS UNDENIABLY POWERFUL IN THE INTERCHANGE BETWEEN HUMANS AND WHAT THAT DOES.
>> LIFE ACTIVISM.
>> IT IS.
AND IT DOES ACTIVATE PEOPLE.
AND IT ACTIVATES US TOO, THOUGH.
WE ARE PRONE TO THAT AS WELL AS THE AUDIENCE.
WE'RE NOT IMMUNE TO THAT, AND WE'RE NOT --IT'S NOT DOGMATIC.
WE'RE NOT PRESENTING THAT TO THEM.
WE ARE PART OF THAT EXCHANGE.
AND THAT IS WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THEATER SO MUCH.
>> WELL, WISH WE COULD TALK MORE.
CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU, KEANU REEVES, ALEX WINTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>>> NOW, SINCE COMING INTO OFFICE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN WAGING A WAR ON DEI, CALLING INTO QUESTION THE HARD WORK OF MANY WHO SHAPED THE UNITED STATES.
TAKE ONE AMERICAN SEMI-RY, WORLD WAR II SEMI-RY IN THE NETHERLANDS WHERE THE DISPLAY ONCE COMMEMORATED THE BLACK SOCCERS TASKED WITH BURYING THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN TROOPS.
BUT IN MARCH THAT DISPLAY WAS TAKEN DOWN BY A FEDERAL COMMISSION ON GROUNDS OF, QUOTE, INTERPRETIVE CONTENT.
NOW IN THE FACE OF ACTS LIKE THESE, CONGRESSMAN JIM CLYBURN HAS WRITTEN A NEW BOOK, PROFILING THE PIONEERING BLACK POLITICIANS OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO WHOM HE ATTRIBUTES HIS OWN CAREER SUCCESS.
CLYBURN WAS THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN TO REPRESENT SOUTH CAROLINA SINCE 1897.
AND HIS BOOK "THE FIRST EIGHT" FOCUSES ON THE TRAILBLAZING BLACK LAWMAKERS FROM HIS OWN STATE.
HE IS SPEAKING TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE PARALLELS BETWEEN THE BATTLE FOR DEMOCRACY IN THE PAST AND PRESENT.
>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM CLYBURN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THIS IS NOT A TRADITIONAL POLITICAL MEMOIR.
YOU CHOSE TO TURN TO HISTORY, TO THE EIGHT BLACK CONGRESSMEN WHO WERE ELECTED TO REPRESENT SOUTH CAROLINA BEFORE YOU, AND YOU ALSO WEAVED IN SOME OF YOUR PERSONAL REFLECTIONS.
WHY TAKE THIS ROUTE?
>> WELL, I THOUGHT ABOUT THESE EIGHT PEOPLE FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.
MY FATHER, WHEN I WAS A YOUNGSTER, MADE ME LEARN EVERYTHING ABOUT ROBERT SMALLS.
I KNEW THAT ROBERT SMALLS WAS BORN ENSLAVED, THAT HE HAD ESCAPED SLAVERY AND BECOME A MEMBER OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND OF CONGRESS.
AND I DIDN'T KNOW A WHOLE LOT ABOUT THE OTHERS.
BUT MY DAD INSISTED EVERY DAY AFTER WE FINISHED DOING HOMEWORK, WE HAD TO SHARE WITH HIM A CURRENT EVENT.
SO I GOT INVOLVED IN AND INTERESTED IN POLITICS AT A VERY EARLY AGE.
AND SO RIGHT AFTER I WROTE MY REGULAR MEMOIR, I RECEIVED VISITORS IN MY OFFICE ONE DAY.
AND ONE OF THEM ASKED ME ABOUT THESE EIGHT PICTURES UP ON MY WALL.
WHEN I EXPLAINED WHO THEY WERE, ONE OF THEM SAID TO ME, I THOUGHT YOU WERE THE FIRST.
AND I KIND OF PLAYFUL, NO, BEFORE I WAS FIRST, THERE WERE EIGHT.
AND I DECIDED THAT DAY THAT MAYBE I WOULD MAKE MY NEXT BOOK ABOUT THESE EIGHT PEOPLE.
AND I STARTED TO REALLY WORKING ON IT LEISURELY.
AND THEN THE 2020 ELECTION HAPPENED.
AND I STARTED SEEING WHAT WAS GOING ON UP IN MICHIGAN, PENNSYLVANIA, DOWN IN GEORGIA, TRYING TO DEVELOP THESE ALTERNATIVE ELECTORS FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
AND I RECOGNIZED FROM THESE PEOPLE'S LIVES SOMETHING'S GOING ON.
WE WERE TRYING TO GET THE NEXT PRESIDENT CERTIFIED AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE PRESIDENT WHO WAS JUST LOST WAS THEN TRYING TO GET THAT CERTIFICATION ANOTHER FIVE, EXACTLY WHAT LED TO THE DEMISE OF THE CAREERS OF THESE EIGHT PEOPLE.
AND SO I CHANGED THE DIRECTION, STARTED THE BOOK OVER AND DECIDED TO FOCUS ON TIME, THEIR EXPERIENCES, TO WHAT WE WERE EXPERIENCING NOW.
AND QUITE FRANKLY, THE PARALLELS ARE VERY EERIE.
>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE PARALLELS, BUT I ALSO WANT TO INTRODUCE OUR AUDIENCE TO A COUPLE OF THESE CHARACTERS THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT.
LET'S START WITH ROBERT SMALL WHO YOU DISCUSSED BRIEFLY.
YOU SAY, "BY MY ESTIMATION, ROBERT SMALLS, THE ONLY BONA FIDE CIVIL WAR HERO OF THE EIGHT AND ONE OF ONLY TWO BLACKS TO SERVE AS A DELEGATE TO THE 1868 AND 1895 CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTIONS, WHICH GRANTED THEN REVOTED BLACK POLITICAL AND CIVIL RIGHTS IN THE STATE, LIVED THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL LIFE OF ANY SOUTH CAROLINIAN IN YOUR MEMORY. "
THAT IS ALREADY CONSEQUENTIAL IN ITSELF WHAT YOU DESCRIBED.
HOW DID HE GET TO THAT POSITION?
HOW DID HE SCAPE?
>> WELL, IT'S A MOST REMARKABLE EVENT I THINK IN THE ENTIRE CIVIL WAR.
ROBERT SMALLS WAS BORN ENSLAVED.
MOTHER GOT VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HIM AND HIS SAFETY LIVING IN SLAVERY.
SO SHE TALKED HER OWNER, JOHN McGEE, ROBERT SMALLS GO TO CHARLESTON TO WORK AND ALL THE INCOME OF COURSE WOULD GO TO THE OWNER.
AND ONE DAY WHILE WORKING ON THE WATERFRONT, HE'D ACHIEVED SOME DEGREE OF SOME ELEVATION AMONG HIS PEERS.
HE WAS PASS PRANCING AROUND THE SHIP ONE DAY AND PLAYFULLY THREW ON THE CAPTAIN'S HAT.
AND ONE OF HIS BROTHERS SAID TO HIM, "YOU LOOK REMARKABLY LIKE THE CAPTAIN UNDER THAT HAT. "
AND THAT GAVE HIM AN IDEA.
ROBERT SMALLS STARTED PLANNING AN ESCAPE.
HE IS USING THE PEOPLE HE WORKED WITH ON THE SHIP AND HIS FAMILY.
AND HE SUCCESSFULLY ABSCONDED THE PRIZED SHIP OF THE CONFEDERATE ARMY WHICH WAS THE PLANTER.
THEY STAYED ON THE PLANTER, GOT INTO FREEDOM.
HE THEN STARTED SERVING IN THE NAVY, AND BECAME THE FIRST CAPTAIN OF A NAVAL SHIP, THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN CAPTAIN IN THE NAVY.
SO I TELL YOUNG PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, AS MY DAD USED TO TELL ME, THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.
SO WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT ALL THESE FIRSTS TODAY.
ROBERT SMALLS TO ME WAS A FIRST.
AND MAYBE THE ONLY REAL HERO OF THE CIVIL WAR.
THE FIRST BLACK CAPTAIN IN THAT WAR SERVED TEN YEARS IN THE SOUTH CAROLINA LEGISLATURE.
AND AFTER THAT, SERVED TEN YEARS IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.
ALL OF THAT WRAPPED UP IN ONE PERSON.
NOW HE ESCAPED IN MAY IN AUGUST OF THAT YEAR ROBERT SMALLS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
TO TRY TO CONVINCE LINCOLN, PRESIDENT LINCOLN TO ALLOW BLACKS TO SERVE IN THE WAR.
BECAUSE THEY WERE FORBIDDEN.
HE CONVINCED LINCOLN, AND LINCOLN AUTHORIZED HIM TO GO BACK TO SOUTH CAROLINA, RECRUIT 5,000 BLACK SOLDIERS WHICH LATER BECAME 40,000.
AND ABRAHAM LINCOLN HIMSELF SAID "BUT FOR THOSE 40,000 SOLDIERS AND OTHERS AFTER THEM, THAT WAR WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST BY THE UNION. "
>> YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK "FAITH IS A THROUGH LINE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, PARTICULARLY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. "
WHO IS RICHARD KING?
WHY DOES HE STAND OUT?
>> RICHARD CANE WAS A NATIVE OF WEST VIRGINIA.
HIS FAMILY MOVED TO OHIO.
AND HE FELT A CALL TO THE MINISTRY AND WAS EDUCATED AT WILBERFORCE UNIVERSITY, THE FIRST PRIVATE HBCU.
BUT HE BECAME DISENCHANTED WITH THE METHODIST CHURCH THAT HE WAS A PASTOR IN.
SO HE LEFT THAT METHODIST CHURCH, BECAME AN AME.
AND THEN HE WAS SENT HERE TO NEW YORK.
AND HE BECAME THE PASTOR OF BRIDGE STREET AME CHURCH OVER IN BROOKLYN, NEW YORK.
BUT HE TRIED TO VOLUNTEER FOR THE UNION ARMY.
AND HE AND SEVERAL OTHERS WERE TURNED DOWN BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT ALLOWING BLACKS TO SERVE AND VERY EXPLICITLY SAID TO BLACKS, THIS IS A WHITE MAN'S WAR, AND WE HAVE STIPULATED IN THE BOOK THIS HAVING BEEN SAID.
BUT HE NEVER GAVE UP ON IT.
AND WHEN THE WAR WAS OVER, HE WAS SENT TO CHARLESTON BY THE AME MOVEMENT TO READ EMANUEL AME CHURCH WHICH HAD BEEN DESTROYED OVER THE ATTEMPTS BY AFRICAN AMERICANS TO ESCAPE.
1822, THE CHURCH HAD BURNED DOWN BECAUSE OF 30 SOME ODD PEOPLE WERE HANGED, AND OF COURSE HE WAS SO SUCCESSFUL AT REBUILDING THAT CHURCH.
I COULDN'T HOLD ALL THE PEOPLE.
SO HE STARTED A SECOND CHURCH, MORRIS BROWN AME CHURCH, WHICH I BECAME A MEMBER OF, AND HE WAS THE FIRST PASTOR OF.
BUT HE DID SOMETHING THAT WARNED PEOPLE ABOUT THE DAY.
HE USED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CHURCH.
HE BOUGHT A NEWSPAPER THAT HE PUBLISHED, AND BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THAT NEWSPAPER, HE BUILT A POLITICAL DYNASTY IN SOUTH CAROLINA AND BECAME A VERY ASTUTE MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND WAS A FOUNDER OF A HBCU DOWN IN TEXAS AND BECAME THE 14th BISHOP OF THE AME CHURCH.
>> GIVEN THE ELECTION RESULTS JUST RECENTLY, DO YOU THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATS MADE A MISTAKE IN STRIKING A DEAL, OR AT LEAST THE NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS WHO CROSSED OVER TO TRY TO END THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN MADE A MISTAKE?
>> YOU KNOW, NO, I DON'T.
I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR THIS BILL, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT DOES NOT GO WHERE I THINK IT SHOULD GO, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE.
I THINK THAT WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS BALANCE INTERESTS HERE.
WE GOT THE SNAP BENEFITS, THE PROBLEM WITH SNAP, WE GOT THAT ADDRESSED.
WE GOT THE PROBLEMS WITH THE WOMEN, INFANTS AND CHILDREN ADDRESSED.
THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT THINGS THAT DID GET ADDRESSED IN THIS DEAL.
BUT EVERYBODY'S FOCUSED ON THE ONE THING WE DIDN'T GET.
YOU KNOW, LYNDON JOHNSON I'LL NEVER FORGET WHEN WE WERE PASSING CIVIL RIGHTS LAWS IN 1960.
WHEN WE PASSED THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964, IN ORDER TO GET THE ACT PASSED, THEY TOOK VOTING OUT OF IT, AND THEY TOOK HOUSING OUT OF IT.
AND THEN IT PASSED DEALING ONLY WITH EMPLOYMENT.
A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT ANGRY ABOUT THAT.
AND LYNDON JOHNSON FAMOUSLY SAID "A HALF LOAF IS BETTER THAN NO LOAF. "
SO LET'S APPLY THAT TO THIS.
WE MAY HAVE GOTTEN A HALF LOAF, BUT THAT'S BETTER THAN NO LOAF.
>> I WONDER RIGHT NOW THERE IS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DISENCHANTMENT WITH HOW THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WORKS, HOW RESPONSIVE PEOPLE FEEL GOVERNMENT.
LOOK, WE JUST STARTED HOPEFULLY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF A 40-PLUS DAY GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.
AND I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM ALL SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM WHO ARE SAYING THERE'S GOT TO BE SOMETHING BETTER THAN THIS.
THIS ISN'T WHAT WE VOTED FOR, JUST PERPETUAL KIND OF GRIDLOCK AND PEOPLE THROWING TANTRUMS AND DECIDING TO STAY IN THEIR CORNERS, AND IN THE MIDDLE PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.
>> THERE IS SOMETHING BETTER.
AND WORKING TOGETHER, WE CAN GET TO THAT SOMETHING BETTER.
BUT YOU DON'T GET TO THAT SOMETHING BETTER BY DROPPING OUT OF THE PROCESS.
YOU STAY ENGAGED IN THIS PROCESS.
AND YOU --IT'S ALMOST LIKE -- THE FIRST HALF WAS OVER, AND WE'RE BEHIND.
WE'RE LOSING.
THERE IS STILL GOING TO BE A SECOND HALF.
THEY STILL GOT LEGISLATION TO ADDRESS.
WE MAY NOT HAVE GOTTEN ALL THAT WE WANTED IN THIS ROUND, BUT WE'RE GOING HAVE IT ENGAGED AGAIN.
APPROPRIATION BILLS AND EVERYBODY KEEPS TALKING ABOUT THE MESSAGE.
I THINK THERE IS A CLEAR MESSAGE NOW.
PEOPLE WANT THINGS THAT ARE GREAT IN THIS COUNTRY TO BE AFFORDABLE AND ACCESSIBLE TO THEM.
AND SO WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO TO HAVE AN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IF EVERYBODY CAN'T AFFORD IT?
SAME WITH HEALTH CARE.
WE HAVE A GREAT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, BUT IS IT AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYBODY?
THE ELECTION OVER IN NEW JERSEY, THE ELECTION ASIDE FROM THAT TUNNEL WAS -- AND THE DEMOCRATS WE'RE GOING TO MAKE ENERGY COSTS AFFORDABLE.
WE'RE GOING TO FREEZE THE COST OF ENERGY.
AND EVERYBODY SAID SHE MIGHT SQUEAK BY.
SHE WON BY 13 POINTS.
DOWN IN VIRGINIA, IT IS ALL ABOUT CHILD CARE AND EDUCATION.
MAKING ALL THESE THINGS AFFORDABLE.
SHE WON BY 14 POINTS.
AND HERE WE GOT A MAYOR, A NEW MAYOR OF NEW YORK.
HE WON TRYING TO MAKE HOUSING AFFORDABLE.
SO THIS THING THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING IS A HOAX.
LET HIM KEEP TALKING.
YOU KEEP WALKING.
>> CONGRESSMAN, FINALLY, YOU CLOSE OUT YOUR BOOK WITH THE STATE MOTTO OF SOUTH CAROLINA, "WHILE I BREATHE, I HOPE. "
AND I WONDER WHAT IS IT THAT GIVES YOU THIS ETERNAL OPTIMISM, CONSIDERING THAT YOU'VE LITERALLY BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES SO MANY TIMES WHERE PEOPLE WOULD GIVE UP.
WHAT SPURS THAT SENSE OF PURPOSE AND KIND OF MAYBE MISSION IN THE MORNING WHEN YOU SAY WE CAN STILL MAKE SOMETHING BETTER?
BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND OF LOOKING FOR THAT HOPE.
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER QUESTIONING MY DAD ABOUT JUST WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
I HAD A REAL PROBLEM WHEN MY FATHER WAS A FUNDAMENTALIST MINISTER, I QUESTIONED A LOT.
ABOUT WHAT HE WAS PREACHING AND WHAT I WAS LIVING.
NOW I'LL NEVER FORGET ONE DAY HE SAID TO ME, SON, THE DARKEST POINT OF THE NIGHT IS THAT MOMENT JUST BEFORE DAWN.
AND THAT HAS SO MUCH MEANING TO ME.
AND IT STILL HAS.
I KNOW HOW DARK IT MAY SEEM, BUT WE COULD VERY WELL BE IN THAT MOMENT JUST BEFORE DAWN.
SO YOU DON'T GIVE UP ON THE PROCESS.
YOU KEEP PRESSING FORWARD.
AND SO I SAY TO YOUNG PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, ROBERT SMALLS DID NOT GIVE UP.
WHEN ROBERT SMALLS, WHO HAD THE CONGRESS --THE CONGRESS WAS INDICTED ON TRUMPED UP CHARGES AND WAS PUT IN JAIL AND WAS OFFERED RELIEF IF HE WOULD JUST GET OUT OF POLITICS.
HE REFUSED.
HE REFUSED.
AND SO I SAY TO YOUNG PEOPLE, NO MATTER HOW DARK IT IS TODAY, NO MATTER HOW DIFFICULT THE TASK MAY BE, YOU CAN'T GIVE UP ON THIS PROCESS.
ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE GOT CHILDREN.
AND YOU'VE GOT GRANDCHILDREN.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO QUIT, THEN WHAT'S GOING TO BE THEIR FUTURE?
SO IF THEY DON'T HAVE A FUTURE, IT MUST NOT BE BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T DO YOUR DARNEDEST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE.
>> REPRESENTATIVE JIM CLYBURN FROM SOUTH CAROLINA, ALSO THE AUTHOR OF "THE FIRST EIGHT," THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.
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