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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT?
THE REPUBLICANS HAVE TO GET TOUGHER.
IF WE END THE FILIBUSTER, WE CAN DO WHAT WE WANT.
>> TRUMP RAMPS UP PRESSURE ON HIS PARTY.
MILLIONS PREPARE TO VOTE IN LOCAL RACES ACROSS AMERICA.
WE WILL HAVE THE DETAILS.
>>> FARMERS UNDER ATTACK.
A SPECIAL REPORT FROM THE WEST BANK ON THE SETTLER VIOLENCE TARGETING THE REGION'S OLIVE HARVEST.
> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> Translator: IF THEY DON'T KILL YOU THE THIRST WILL KILL YOU, THE HUNGER WILL KILL YOU.
IT'S HUMILIATION.
>> DEVASTATION IN SUDAN.
SURVIVORS AND SATELLITE IMAGES TELL STORIES OF AN UNFOLDING MASSACRE.
>>> IT WOULD BE A HUGE MISTAKE TO SAY THE WORLD HAS GOTTEN POLARIZED SO WE HAVE TO PICK A SIDE.
NO.
WE NEED TO DESCRIBE THEM FAIRLY.
>> JIMMY WALES DISCUSSES HIS NEW BOOK AND HOW HIS SITE'S SUCCESS CAN INFORM OUR INCREASINGLY PARTISAN WORLD.
♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
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COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> IT'S THE START OF A WEEK THAT COULD HAVE MAJOR CONSEQUENCES FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECOND TERM.
THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN IS INCHING CLOSER TO BEING THE LONGEST IN HISTORY.
MILLIONS FACING FROZEN PAYCHECKS AND REDUCED FOOD AIR.
THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING HE SEES FEW WAYS OUT OF THE STALEMATE.
>> SOUNDS LIKE IT'S NOT GOING TO GET SOLVED.
>> IT'S GOING TO GET SOLVED.
EVENTUALLY, THEY WILL HAVE TO VOTE.
>> THE DEMOCRATS WILL CAPITULATE?
>> I THINK THEY HAVE TO.
IF THEY DON'T VOTE, THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM.
I HAPPEN TO AGREE TO SOMETHING ELSE.
WE SHOULD DO THE NUCLEAR OPTION.
THIS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT NUCLEAR.
IT'S CALLED ENDING THE FILIBUSTER.
>> AN IDEA REJECTED BY REPUBLICAN LEADERS, WE SHOULD NOTE, WARY OF ENDING A RULE THAT GIVES THE SENATE MINORITY A CHECK ON MAJORITY POWER AND FEARFUL OF WHAT IT COULD MEAN UNDER A FUTURE DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY.
VOTERS ARE PREPARING TO CAST BALLOTS IN A SERIES OF KEY ELECTIONS TAKING PLACE TOMORROW.
THE FIRST TEST OF THE NATION'S POLITICAL MOOD.
A MOMENT THAT COULD SHAKE UP THE SHUTDOWN IMPASSE.
TO GET THIS, LET'S BRING IN JESSICA TAYLOR, THE SENATE AND GOVERNOR'S HE HAD EDITOR FOR "THE COOK. "
WE HAVE TWO STATES GUBERNATORIAL RACES, REDISTRICTING ON THE BALLOT IN CALIFORNIA.
TALK ABOUT HOW SIGNIFICANT YOU THINK TOMORROW'S ELECTION WILL BE.
>> THESE STATES ARE VOTING AT A UNIQUE TIME WHEN WE'RE, AS YOU MENTIONED, APPROACHING THE LONGEST GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.
ACROSS THE BOARD, WE ARE EXPECTING DEMOCRATS WILL HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.
OUR RATINGS HERE, WE RATE THE RACE IN VIRGINIA AND BOTH OPEN SEATS IN NEW JERSEY AND VIRGINIA FAVOR DEMOCRATS.
THE VIRGINIA ONE SLIGHTLY BETTER CHANCES THERE.
MORE COMPETITIVE IN NEW JERSEY.
NEITHER ARE STATES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP CARRIED ANY OF THE THREE TIMES HE HAS BEEN ON THE BALLOT.
VIRGINIA ESPECIALLY, A STATE THAT IS UNIQUELY AFFECTED BY THE SHUTDOWN.
SO THAT CLOSING MESSAGE, ESPECIALLY WITH A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF FEDERAL WORKERS ATTACKED BY DOGE CUTS AND DIFFERENT THINGS.
IT COMES AS WE SEE POLLING THAT --AN NBC NEWS POLL BY TEN POINTS SHOWED VOTERS ARE BLAMING REPUBLICANS FOR THE SHUTDOWN, WHICH RUNS COUNTER TO THE MESSAGE WE SAW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED TO SAY IN HIS CBS INTERVIEW.
IT'S REPUBLICANS THAT CONTROL ALL LEVERS OF GOVERNMENT.
WE OFTEN SEE THAT THESE OFF- YEAR ELECTIONS OCCURRING AFTER A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION ARE A BACKLASH TO THE PARTY IN POWER.
THAT'S WHAT I THINK WILL SHOW ONCE THE POLLS CLOSE TOMORROW NIGHT.
>> MILLIONS OF VULNERABLE AMERICANS WILL HAVE SNAP EXPIRE.
TWO JUDGES SAY THE ADMINISTRATION HAD TO PAY THE BENEFITS.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SAYING THEY WILL FUND SNAP RTIALLY.
THEY DIDN'T SAY THEY WILL FUND IT FULLY.
>> I THINK THAT THEY DID, AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, REALIZE IT COULD BE A BIG BACKLASH.
THIS COULD HELP DEMOCRATS IN TRYING TO ARGUE FOR AN END TO THE SHUTDOWN.
FOR DEMOCRATS, THE BIGGEST THING THEY HAVE IN THEIR FAVOR IS THEY OWNED IN ON THIS OBAMACARE SUBSIDY MESSAGE SO MUCH.
STICKER SHOCK OF RISING PRICE FOR PREMIUMS AND DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAPPENED ON NOVEMBER 1.
WITH SNAP TAKING UP LESS OF THE CONVERSATION, PERHAPS, NOW FOR DEMOCRATS THEY CAN FOCUS MORE ON THAT HEALTH CARE MESSAGE THAT THEY REALLY FEEL LIKE IS SORT OF THEIR SILVER BULLET WHEN IT COMES TO ADVANTAGES FOR THE SHUTDOWN.
AGAIN, THEY HAVE TO HAVE --IT HAS TO BE A BIPARTISAN MEASURE IN THE SENATE.
AS YOU PLAYED IN THE CLIP EARLIER AS WELL, REPUBLICAN LEADERS DO NOT WANT TO USE THE NUCLEAR OPTION.
THEY DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER.
JOHN THUNE, THE GOP LEADER SNOWS THAT AT SOME POINT REPUBLICANS WILL BE BACK IN THE MINORITY.
THEY WILL WANT THAT PROTECTION -- MINORITY PROTECTION THE FILL BY IBUSTER ALLOWS THEM.
>> HOW FAR ARE REPUBLICANS TO STAND UP, LIKE JOHN THUNE, TO PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO CONTINUES TO PUSH THIS NUCLEAR OPTION AND DOING AWAY WITH THE FILIBUSTER?
HE UNDERSTOOD SOME OF THE CONCERNS FROM REPUBLICANS HERE, BUT NONETHELESS, HE SAID IN "60 MINUTES" IT WAS WORTH PURSUING RIGHT NOW.
WE HAVEN'T SEEN REPUBLICANS REALLY STAND UP TO THE PRESIDENT YESTERDAY.
DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE THE ISSUE THAT THEY WON'T BE BULLIED ON?
>> I DO THINK THAT THUNE HAS --HE IS SOMEONE THAT KNOWS THE SENATE.
HE AND OTHER SENATE LEADERSHIP UNDERSTAND THAT THIS REALLY COULD CHANGE THE TRAJECTORY OF YEARS TO COME.
I THINK THAT YOU ARE GOING TO SEE THUNE MAKING THAT CASE CONTINUED TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP LIKES THE SOUND BITE, LIKES SAYING I'M FIGHTING AND WE WILL DO THIS IF DEMOCRATS STAND IN OUR WAY, THAT WE WILL DO THIS UNILATERALLY.
THE SENATE IS DIFFERENT FROM THE HOUSE IN THIS REGARD IN THAT THERE IS THE MINORITY PROTECTIONS IN THAT.
SO I THINK REMOVING THAT LIMIT IN A WAY THAT 60-VOTE THRESHOLD WOULD MAKE THE SENATE MORE LIKE THE HOUSE.
WE HAVE SEEN HOW POLARIZED THE HOUSE HAS GOTTEN.
THAT'S WHERE THEY HAVE NOT REALLY STOOD UP TO TRUMP IN ANY INSTANCE.
I THINK THAT THUNE IS GOING TO USE HIS GUIDANCE AND EXPERIENCE THERE FOR AS LONG AS HE CAN.
>> RETURNING TO THE RACES TOMORROW.
WE HAVE VIRGINIA, SPANBERGER IN A LE STATE.
NEW JERSEY, ALSO A MODERATE DEMOCRAT IS MORE OF A TOSSUP.
WE HAD PRESIDENT OBAMA CAMPAIGNING FOR BOTH OF THEM RECENTLY OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS.
YOU HAVE CANDIDATES LIKE THE SOCIAL DEMOCRAT, FAR LEFT PROGRESSIVE, ZOHRAN MAMDANI IN NEW YORK CITY EXPECTED TO WIN AS WELL.
IF WE SEE ALL THREE WIN, VIRGINIA AND NEW JERSEY AND NEW YORK CITY, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS HEADED IN AND SHOULD BE HEADED IN?
>> I THINK THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE REPUBLICANS THAT ARE GOING TO POINT TO MAMDANI IN NEW YORK CITY AND SAY, HE IS THE FUTURE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
IF YOU WANT A DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST AND IF YOU WANT THESE FAR LEFT POLICIES THAT ARE OUTSIDE OF THE MAINSTREAM, HERE IS WHO THEY ARE PICKING.
AT THE SAME TIME, I EXPECT --WE RATE THE NEW JERSEY RACE THERE LEAN DEMOCRAT.
THE VIRGINIA RACE LIKELY DEMOCRAT.
DEMOCRATS -- NATIONAL DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO WANT TO POINT TO PEOPLE LIKE SPANBERGER.
THEY WERE ELECTED IN THE 2018 MIDTERMS, THE FIRST BACK LASH TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.
THEY ARE WOMEN.
THEY HAVE --THEY WERE PART OF THE COHORT OF NATIONAL SECURITY DEMOCRATS THAT WERE ELECTED.
SPANBERGER IS A FORMER CIA OPERATIVE.
THEY ARE GOING TO POINT TOWARD THEM THAT HAVE THESE MORE CENTRIST QUALITIES.
I'M NOT SURE THAT THE FUTURE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS GOING TO BE DECIDED TOMORROW NIGHT.
I THINK THEY ARE IN FOR A YEAR-LONG FIGHT ALMOST, WHICH TYPES OF CANDIDATES THAT THEY HAVE FOR THE 2026 MIDTERMS.
THE DIFFERENCE TO ME HAVING COVERED 2018 AND NOW IS THAT DEMOCRATS ARE NOT UNIFIED IN A MESSAGE AND THE TYPES OF CANDIDATES THAT THEY ARE PUSHING.
SOMEONE LIKE MAMDANI FITS NEW YORK CITY WELL BUT WOULD NOT BE ELECTABLE IN A SUBURBAN SWING CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.
THE QUESTION BECOMES, DO DEMOCRATS FALL IN LINE SOME OF THE CANDIDATES THAT WILL --THAT THEIR LEADERS WANT FOR THESE KEY SENATE RACES, FOR INSTANCE, LIKE GOVERNOR MILLS IN MAINE OR DO THEY GET BEHIND A MORE PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE LIKE PLATNER, BUT IS STILL GETTING THE GRASS-ROOTS BERNIE SANDERS TYPES EXCITED?
WHICH CANDIDATE IS THE STORY OF 2026?
I THINK WE JUST DON'T KNOW YET.
I THINK THAT WINNERS --LIKELY WINNERS OF ALL THREE OF THE RACES ON TUESDAY NIGHT GIVE BOTH THE OPPOSITION AND THE DIFFERENT FACTIONS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SOMEONE TO POINT TOWARD.
>> AMONG THE CAMPAIGNING YOU ARE REFERENCING WHEN IT RELATES TO PLATNER WAS A NAZI TATTOO THAT HE DIDN'T REALIZE THE MEANING BEHIND THAT HE HAS HAD FOR MANY YEARS.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT MAN MAN DA --MAMDANI.
IS THIS A WARNING TO MODERATE DEMOCRATS OR IS IT MORE TO WHAT YOU SAID SORT OF AN ANOMALY WHERE THERE HAD BEEN WEAKER OR --THE FIELD IN NEW YORK CITY HAD OPENED THE PATHWAY TO SOMEONE AS ENERGIZING AS MAMDANI AND MAYBE AN E OUTLIER FOR THE PARTY?
>> THE BIGGEST ALTERNATIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY WAS A FORMER GOVERNOR WHO HAD TO RESIGN BASED ON SEXUAL HARASSMENT CHARGES, I DON'T THINK IT WAS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A DEMOCRATIC PRY PRIMARY.
CUOMO TOOK UP SO MUCH OXYGEN.
IT ONLY ALLOWED FOR ONE CANDIDATE TO GET THROUGH.
IF NATIONAL DEMOCRATS HAD REALIZED AS THEY SHOULD HAVE THAT CUOMO WAS SO DAMAGED THAT IT COULD HAVE ALLOWED MAMDANI TO SURGE.
POLLING WAS OFF IN THAT RACE.
IT DID MEASURE HE WAS SURGING AND DID NOT MEASURE THE GAP THAT HE WOULD END UP THEREBY.
I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS HAPPENING IN ONE OF THE BLUEST CITIES OF AMERICA.
I THINK THAT WHERE THE BATTLE FOR THE HOUSE NEXT YEAR IS ING TO BE WON IN MORE COMPETITIVE AREAS AND I DON'T THINK A CANDIDATE LIKE MAMDANI, IF THEY ARE NOMINATED IN A SWING AREA, THEN THAT WOULD BE REALLY BAD FOR DEMOCRATIC CHANCES IN THOSE AREAS.
I THINK IT JUST --DOES HE REFLECT MORE OF NEW YORK CITY VALUES?
I THINK SO.
THAN HE DOES MORE OF A SWING AREA OR A SUBURBAN OR RURAL DISTRICT.
>> A IVISIVE CANDIDATE WITHIN NEW YORK CITY AS WELL.
WE ARE EXPECTING TO SEE RECORD TURNOUT.
LET ME MOVE WEST IN CALIFORNIA PROP 50 REDISTRICTING VOTE, WHICH COULD REALLY RESHAPE THE NATIONAL MAP.
GOVERNOR NEWSOM FOLLOWING THROUGH ON HIS THREAT TO DO WHAT WAS DONE IN TEXAS WHERE THEY REWROTE FIVE DISTRICTS THERE.
HE IS SAYING, WE WILL DO THE SAME IN CALIFORNIA.
THERE HAD BEEN SOME PUSHBACK FROM DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS.
MOST NOTABLY FORMER GOVERNOR SCHWARZENEGGER SAYING THIS IS NOT THE PATH ANYONE SHOULD BE HEADED DOWN.
I THINK IT IS EXPECTED TO WIN TOMORROW, THIS PROPOSITION.
WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE GOING?
WHICH PARTY HAS THE UPPER HAND?
>> DEMOCRATS HAVE THE UPPER HAND HERE.
WE DO EXPECT PROP 50 TO PASS.
IT WAS A TACIT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT WHEN THE ANTI- PROP 50 FOLKS WERE BEGINNING TO WITHDRAW THEIR MONEY FROM ADVERTISING AND THINGS.
I THINK THAT GAVIN NEWSOM, WHO HAS NOT BEEN Y ABOUT HIS 2028 HOPES HAS SOLIDIFIED HIMSELF AS THE MOST ANTI-TRUMP CANDIDATE IF VOTERS ARE LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO FIGHT, THAT GAVIN NEWSOM WILL PROP UP HIS BONA FIDE IN THIS REGARD.
TEXAS WAS FIRST SHOT IN THIS UNPRECEDENTED MID-CYCLE REDISTRICTING EFFORT, WHICH AGAIN JUST TELLS ME HOW WORRIED REPUBLICANS ARE ABOUT HOLDING THEIR INCREDIBLY NARROW MAJORITY IN THE HAAS WHEN OUSE WHEN HE WITH SEE A DOZEN OR SO SEATS THAT WOULD SWITCH IN A MIDTERM CYCLE AGAINST THE PARTY IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
DEMOCRATS HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY HERE.
THEY HAD INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION.
IF THE PLAYING FIELD ISN'T EVEN, THEN WE HAVE TO FIGHT BACK WITH WHAT TOOLS WE HAVE.
WE ANTICIPATE HERE THAT IT COULD BE THREE TO FIVE SEATS THAT DEMOCRATS ARE ABLE TO PICK UP.
NOT ONLY THAT, THEY SHORE UP MORE VULNERABLE DEMOCRATS TO TARGET MORE REPUBLICAN AND SWING SEATS IN THAT REGARD.
NOW BEER WE'RE LOOKING AT VIRGINIA LOOKING TO DO THE SAME THING.
YOU HAVE HAD AN OHIO MAP THAT CAME OUT WHERE IT WAS NOT AS AGGRESSIVE AS WE THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE.
THEN YOU HAVE ANOTHER PLACE LIKE FLORIDA THAT COULD TRY TO REDISTRICT IN FAVOR OF REPUBLICANS.
IT'S JUST SORT OF THIS ONGOING CYCLE OF DOMINOS REALLY IN THESE NOW REDISTRICTING WARS HAPPENING NOT WHEN WE TYPICALLY SEE REDISTRICTING HAPPENING.
>> THAT'S TRUE.
USUALLY IT'S AROUND THE CENSUS.
NOW IT SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING WHENEVER A GOVERNOR IS CALLING FOR IT AND THE PRESIDENT AS WELL.
JESSICA TAYLOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>>> NEXT WE TURN TO THE MIDDLE EAST.
TURKEY TODAY HOSTED A MINISTER-LEVEL MEETING TO DISCUSS THE ISRAEL/HAMAS CEASE-FIRE.
ISRAEL CONFIRMED IDENTITIES OF THREE BODIES IT RECEIVED ON SUNDAY.
ALL THREE WERE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY WHOSE BODIES WERE TAKE TAKEN TO GAZA.
ONE IS OMER NEUTRA.
THERE ARE NOW EIGHT DECEASED HOSTAGES IN GAZA.
IN THE WEST BANK, THIS YEAR'S OLIVE HARVEST IS ON TRACK TO BE THE MOST VIOLENT IN MORE THAN A DECADE.
ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS.
ISRAELI SETTLERS CARRY OUT ATTACKS ON PALESTINIAN FARMERS AND THE OLIVE GROVES THEY RELY ON FOR THEIR LIVELIHOODS.
JESS JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTS.
>> Reporter: THIS WOMAN HASN'T WALKED THROUGH THE GROVES IN TWO YEARS.
NOW, WEAVING HER WAY FROM TREE TO TREE, SHE ASSESSES THE DAMAGE.
BROKEN BRANCHS, TREES DRIED OUT AND NO OLIVES TO BE HARVESTED.
I'M SUFFOCATED SHE SAYS, SUFFOCATED FROM SEEING MY HARD WORK TURN OUT LIKE THIS.
I USED TO SPEND SO MUCH TIME HERE UNDER THE SCORCHING HEAT TENDING TO THE TREES.
HER SON EXPLAINS THAT THE ISRAELI SETTLERS LIVING ON THIS ILLEGALLY OUTPOST ARE TO BLAME.
HE SAYS THEY HAVE ASSAULTED HIM AND THREATENED HIS COMMUNITY.
MAKING IT DANGEROUS TO ACCESS THE GROVES FOR TWO YEARS.
WHILE USING THEIR CATTLE TO WREAK HAVOC.
THE COWS CAME HERE TO GRAZE ON THE OLIVE TREES.
THIS IS ONE WAY IN WHICH SETTLERS HAVE COME TO TRY AND DISTRUST THE LIVELIHOOD OF PALESTINIANS IN THE AREA AND TO ULTIMATELY TRY AND FORCE THEM OUT FROM THEIR LANDS.
THE EVIDENCE IS ALL OVER THESE FIELDS.
IT IS JUST ONE PART OF A DISTURBING PICTURE PLAYING OUT ACROSS THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.
FOR GENERATIONS OF PALESTINIANS, THE ANNUAL OLIVE HARVEST HAS BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH TRADITION AND A DEEP CONNECTION TO THE LAND.
THIS YEAR, MORE THAN EVER, IT HAS BEEN SYNONYMOUS WITH SETTLER VIOLENCE.
PALESTINIAN OLIVE PICKERS HAVE BEEN ATTACKED 259 TIMES SINCE THE HARVEST SEASON BEGAN LAST MONTH.
ACCORDING TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.
OUTPACING THE VIOLENCE OF RECENT YEARS.
ISRAELI SETTLERS HAVE CARRIED OU THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF ATTACKS.
ASSAULTING THE PALESTINIANS ATTEMPTING TO HARVEST THEIR OLIVES.
MORE THAN 4,000 TREES AND SAP AFTER GETTING A CALL HIS MOTHER-IN-LAW HAD BEEN DETAINED, THIS MAN GRABBED HER HEART MEDICATION AND RUSHED TO REACH HER.
HE DIDN'T EXPECT WHAT UNFOLDED NEXT.
AN ISRAELI SETTLER GRABS AND HITS HIM.
TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS PUSH HIM DOWN TO THE GROUND.
ONE SOLDIER HITS HIM WITH THE BARREL OF HIS RIFLE BEFORE THE SETTLER COMES IN TO LAND SEVERAL MORE BLOWS.
THEY WERE RELEASED WITHOUT CHARGE.
HE SAYS HE SUFFERED A MILD CONCUSSION.
WE EXPERIENCE THESE ATTACKS EVERY SEASON.
A SEASON THAT HAS BECOME BLOODY.
WE WILL NOT ABANDON IT, HE SAYS.
THE OLIVE TREES EXISTED BEFORE THE OCCUPATION.
IT IS VALUABLE AND DEAR TO US.
THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS THEY ARE GOING TO INVESTIGATE THIS INCIDENT.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE HAPPENED HAD THIS NOT BEEN CAUGHT ON VIDEO?
NOTHING AT ALL, EVEN IF I WAS KILLED, THEY WOULDN'T CARE.
THE INCIDENT WOULD HAVE COME AND GONE.
FOR NOW, HE DOESN'T DARE APPROACH HIS FAMILY'S GROVES.
THIS IS AS FAR AS YOU ARE COMFORTABLE GOING BECAUSE OF WHAT THE SETTLERS OR MILITARY MIGHT DO TO YOU?
YES, OF COURSE, I DON'T WANT TO PUT MYSELF IN DANGER HE SAYS.
AT THIS FARM, A GROUP OF ISRAELI AND JEWISH ACTIVISTS HAVE COME TO OFFER SUPPORT.
USING THEIR VERY PRESENCE TO DETER ATTACKS FROM SETTLERS AND THE MILL TEAR RICHLT.
IT HAS GIVEN THIS WOMAN A CHANCE TO SIT BENEATH HER OLIVE TREES.
TEN YEARS, TEN YEARS OF ME SPENDING TIME ON THIS LAND, REFUSING TO LEAVE, WATERING AND TENDING TO THE OLIVES WITH OUR BARE HANDS.
SHE SAYS SHE WON'T BE DRIVEN AWAY.
SHE WILL SEE THIS GROVE FLOURISH ONCE AGAIN.
>> JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTING THERE.
THE MILITARY TOLD US THEY RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE HARVEST IF MAINTAINING THE AREA.
IT HAS RESTRICTED ENTRY TO REPRESENT ISSUES.
>>> WE TURN NOW TO SUDAN.
THE UNFOLDING HORROR IN EL-EL-FASHER.
THERE HAVE BEEN TESTIMONIES OF EXECUTIONS, INCLUDING AT A HOSPITAL.
AS WELL AS BEATINGS AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS.
THE U.N.
ESTIMATES MORE THAN 70,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DISPLACED FROM THE CITY SINCE THE RSF TOOK CONTROL.
THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES IS ACCUSED OF BACKING THE GROUP AND SUPPLYING THEM WITH WEAPONRY, SOMETHING THE UAE DENIES.
THE VIDENCE OF POTENTIAL WAR CRIMES INCLUDE VIDEOS UPLOADED BY RSF MEMBERS THEMSELVES BUT ALSO SAT ELLITE IMIMAGERY.
IT HAS BEEN YALE'S RESEARCH LAB HAS BEEN MONITORING.
NATHANIEL RAYMOND AND HAMID KHALAFALLAH JOIN US.
YALE ARE USING IMAGERY AND OPEN SOURCE DATA.
WE HAVE HAD DIFFICULTY AS REPORTERS GETTING ACCESS TO THE BRUTALITY THAT HAS BEEN UNFOLDING THERE.
JUST TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN SEEING WITH THE SATELLITE IMAGERY.
>> WE'RE JUST OVER A WEEK OUT.
THE PICTURE THAT THE IMAGERY IS PROVIDING FOR US IS UNFORTUNATELY VERY CLEAR AND VERY GRIM.
BY THE TIME WE REACH MONDAY OF LAST WEEK, WE COULD SEE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES VEHICLES ENGAGE IN HOUSE-TO-HOUSE KILLING.
THEY WERE BLOCKING ALLEYS WITH TRUCKS WITH MACHINE GUNS ON THE BACK.
WE COULD SEE OBJECTS THROUGHOUT THE LAST NEIGHBORHOOD THAT WAS HOLDING CIVILIANS.
WE COULD SEE OBJECTS THAT WERE BETWEEN 1.
3 TO 2 METERS IN LENGTH, WHICH IS THE AVERAGE SIZE OF AN AVERAGE BODY SEEN LYING ON THE GROUND.
AROUND SOME OF THOSE OBJECTS WE STARTED TO SEE RED DISCOLORATION.
WE BELIEVE THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH BLOOD.
>> WHEN YOU SAW THOSE IMAGES,ED BLOOD, THE BODIES, THE RED DISCOLORATION, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND?
>> I WAS HORRIFIED.
I WANTED TO THROW UP.
UNFORTUNATELY, I WASN'T SURPRISED.
WE HAVE BEEN WARNING THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SINCE JULY 2023 THAT THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
IT WAS ARGUABLY THE MOST ACCURATELY PREDICTED MASS KILLING IN HISTORY.
WE BRIEFED THE U.N.
SECURITY COUNCIL SIX TIMES.
NONE OF THIS WAS SHOCKING.
WE HAD IT DOWN TO THE DAY, ALMOST THE HOUR.
THE ONLY THING THAT IS SHOCKING IS THE LACK OF INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE.
>> YOU BRIEFED THE U.N.
SIX TIMES AND THERE WAS NO RESPONSE.
HAMID, HOW DID THE U.N.
ALLOW THIS MASSACRE TO HAPPEN?
>> IT'S NOT ONLY THE U.N., UNFORTUNATELY.
THE U.N.
IS DEFINITELY COMPLICIT AND PARTIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT'S HAPPENING.
IT IS SO MANY OTHER GOVERNMENTS.
I REALLY APPRECIATE THE WORK THAT COLLEAGUES AT YALE HAVE BEEN DOING OVER THE PAST MONTH AND YEARS AND SO ON.
U.S.
GOVERNMENT, UK GOVERNMENT, EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS, WE HAVE BRIEFED ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING, ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN EL-FASHER.
IT WAS NEITHER A SURPRISE OR UNFORESEEABLE.
IT WAS ANTICIPATED.
IT WAS DOCUMENTED.
WARNED ABOUT.
THE LEVEL OF ATROCITIES THAT ARE UNFOLDING AGENT THE MOMENT WERE PREDICTED, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN THE SAME PATTERN TAKE PLACE TWO YEARS AGO.
THE FORCES COMMITTED SO MANY ATROCITIES WHEREVER THEY WENT.
THE SAME PASS TTERN WAS SEEN BECAUSE OF THE ETHNIC COMPLICHL COMPLEXITIES THAT'S DIFFERENT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SUDAN.
ALL THE GOVERNMENTS WERE ADDRESSED, BRIEFED, PARTICULARLY ABOUT CIVILIAN PROTECTION AND ATROCITY PREVENTION.
EVERYONE CHOSE TO WATCH AS THIS HAPPENS AND UNFOLDS.
NOW WE GET NOTHING BUT EMPTY STATEMENTS OF CONDEMNATION.
>> CAN YOU GIVE US MORE IN TERMS OF WHAT HAS STOOD OUT TO YOU AS WE ARE GETTING SOME OF THESE SURVIVOR ACCOUNTS OF THE MASSACRE AND ATROCITIES, HAD MID, FROM WHAT YOU ARE HEARING?
>> I MEAN, IT'S -- EVERY STORY THAT I HEARD WAS DEVASTATING ON SO MANY LEVELS.
STORIES WE ARE NOT GETTING OF THOSE WHO ARE STILL TRAPPED INSIDE.
ONE OF THE RECENT REPORTS SUGGESTS THAT YOU CAN'T SEE ANYONE ANYMORE.
PEOPLE ARE EITHER HIDING OR DEAD.
THOSE WHO HAVE MANAGED TO FLEE WERE CHASED THROUGHOUT THE WAY AS THEY WERE LEAVING.
THEY HAD TO OBVIOUSLY FLEE ON FOOT, SOME OF THEM HAD TO WALK FOR 60 TO 0 KILOMETERS.
AS THEY ARRIVED, THEY WILL TELL YOU THE MOST HARROWING STORIES ABOUT HOW, FOR INSTANCE, MEN AND WOMEN WERE SEPARATED AND CHILDREN SEPARATED AND THE MEN WERE KILLED AND THE WOMEN HAD TO GO AND WALK WITH YOUNG CHILDREN.
WHILE THEY WALK THROUGHOUT THAT VERY LONG WALK, THEY WOULD SEE BODIES ALL OVER THE WAY OF PEOPLE WHO WERE SHOT OR DIED OF HUNGER OR DIED OF DIFFERENT DISEASES.
IT'S JUST AN UNIMAGINABLE SITUATION THAT WE HAVE SEEN COMING, BUT NO ONE DID ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
>> SYSTEMATIC KILLINGS IS A TERM WE HEAR OVER AND OVER AGAIN, NATHANIEL.
I WAS LISTENING TO AN ECONOMIST REPORT THIS MORNING.
IT WAS DETAILING HOW A HOSPITAL THERE, THEY BELIEVE EVERY PATIENT IN THE HOSPITAL WAS MURDERED.
YOUR LATEST ANALYSIS SHOWS THE BEFORE AND AFTER OF A MATERNITY HOSPITAL AND A FORMER CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL AND HOW IT TURNS INTO A DETENTION SITE.
YOU ALSO HAD SOURCES THERE ON THE GROUND WHO YOU HAVE LOST CONTACT WITH.
I HATE TO ASK YOU.
IT SEEMS OBVIOUS, SADLY, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS HAPPENED TO THEM?
WHY HAVE YOU LOST CONTACT WITH THEM?
>> WELL, THERE'S BEEN A COMMUNICATIONS BLOCKADE.
WE ALSO ASSUME THEY'RE DEAD.
ON MONDAY MORNING, WE RECEIVED WORD THAT 1,200 HAD DIED IN EL-FASHER.
BY EVENING, SOURCES SAID 10,000.
BY TUESDAY, WE COULDN'T REACH THEM.
MEANWHILE, WE ARE SEEING AVA -- A VELOCITY OF KILLING THAT COULD BE COMPARED TO RWANDA.
WE ARE LOOKING AT A MASS CASUALTY EVENT THAT COULD EXCEED, IN A WEESHGS THE K, THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO DIED IN GAZA IN TWO YEARS.
>> YOU SAID YOU HAVEN'T SEEN VIOLENCE THIS SINCE RWANDA.
THE FEROCITY OF THE RSF AND THEIR MURDERS YOU SAID IS SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IN 26 YEARS OF YOUR WORK.
YOU ACCUSED OF UNITED STATES AND UK OF ING ITS TIES WITH THE UAE OVER ENFORCING SANCTIONS AND PUTTING MORE PRESSURE ON THE UAE TO STOP SUPPLYING AND SUPPORTING THE RSF.
THAT'S SOMETHING THE AUAE CONTINUES TO DENY.
TALK ABOUT THE PRESSURE YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES AND THE UK SHOULD BE PUTTING ON UAE.
>> WE HAVE INCREDIBLE REPORTING FROM LAST WEEK BY THE TEAM ATWAL STREET --AT WALL "WALL STREET JOURNAL" WHICH CONFIRM THAT THE UAE ARMED THE RSF AND CONFIRMED ASSESSMENTS BY OUR TEAM AT YALE THAT THE UAE HAD TRANSFERRED FIXED- WING DRONES TO THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES FOR THE FIGHT ON EL-FASHER.
THE POINT HERE IS THAT THE RSF IS ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY DID IN EL-FASHER BECAUSE OF UAE SUPPORT.
PRESS LEASES AREN'T GOING TO SAVE THOSE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE.
THE ONLY THING IS PUT UP OR SHUT UP TO TELL THEM, YOU STOP SUPPORT ING THE USF OR YOU WILL FACE CONSEQUENCES YOU FEEL.
>> WE SHOULD NOTE THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, PROSECUTORS ARE COLLECTING EVIDENCE OF ALLEGED MASS KILLINGS AND RAPES.
ARE YOU IN ANY WAY WORKING WITH THE ICC?
HAVE THEY REACHED OUT TO YOU IN TERMS OF THE EVIDENCE YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COLLECT?
NATHANIEL.
>> I'M GOING TO SAY NO COMMENT FOR REASONS THAT WILL BE OBVIOUS TO VIEWERS.
>> HAMID, IN YOUR WORDS, I WOULD IMAGINE ON THE ONE HAND IT'S ENCOURAGING TO HEAR PROSECUTORS ARE COLLECTING EVIDENCE.
ULTIMATELY, DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE --SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNT --TO ACCOUNT WILL BE AT THE END OF THE DAY?
>> HONESTLY, AT THE MOMENT, I'M NOT QUITE OPTIMISTIC IN ANY WAY.
THAT'S FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.
FOR INSTANCE, THE PROCESSES THAT THE ICC AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL SYSTEMS ARE VERY SLOW AND THE SUDANESE PEOPLE CANNOT WAIT FOR THAT.
A FEW WEEKS BACK, WE HAD FINALLY ONE OF THE CONVICTED OF THE DARFUR WAR AND GENOCIDE IN 2003 WAS JUST NOW TRIED IN THE HAGUE AND FOUND GUILTY.
ALMOST 22 YEARS AFTER THAT GENOCIDE HAPPENED.
ANOTHER GENOCIDE IS UNFOLDING IN EL-FASHER.
THAT KIND OF TIME LINE DOES NOT WORK.
WE CANNOT AFFORD IT.
ALSO BECAUSE OF THE WAY PEACE SK MADE TODAY BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS ENGAGING AND DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS HAVE BEEN MADE.
CONTINUE TO KIND OF PRIORITIZE THE WARRING FACTIONS OVER CIVILIAN ACTORS AND CONTINUE TO APPEASE THEM IN A WAY THAT ONLY THE VIOLENCE AND ONLY ENCOURAGES MORE VIOLENCE BECAUSE THE MORE VIOLENCE YOU COMMIT, THE MORE POWER YOU GET APPARENTLY AS FAR AS PEACE PROCESSES NOWADAYS ARE CONCERNED.
UNLESS THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT IN HOW WE MAKE PEACE, HOW THE VILLAGERS ARE NOT REWARDED AND PEACE DOES NOT MEAN SACRIFICING JUSTICE AND NOT LEAD TO MORE IMMUNITY, I DON'T THINK WE WILL SEE AN END TO THIS.
>> WHAT ROLE, HAMID, DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES SHOULD PLAY HERE IN FOSTERING AND PUSHING FOR PEACE AND A CEASE- FIRE?
THIS SAY PRESIDENT WHO HAS SAID THAT HE HAS OVERSEEN NOW SEVEN OR EIGHT CEASE-FIRE AND PEACE DEALS.
WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO GET THIS ON HIS RADAR, TOO?
>> I THINK WHAT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE U.S.
TO DO QUITE IMMEDIATELY IS TO HOLD ITS CLOSE ALLIES AND FRIENDS TO ACCOUNT.
THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, AS NATHANIEL WAS SPEAKING, THERE'S MORE THAN ENOUGH DOCUMENTATION OF HOW THEY HAVE BEEN ENABLING ATROCITIES THAT HAPPEN ON THE GROUND.
HOLDING THEM TO ACCOUNT AND ENSURING THERE ARE NO MORE ARMS GOING INTO SUDAN AND VIOLATING THE ARMS EMBARGO OF THE U.N.
AND OF SO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES THAT IS NOW ONLY INK ON PAPER, ENSURING THAT ACTORS LIKE THE UNITED ARAB SUPPORTING, LIKE EGYPT AND SO ON ARE HELD TO ACCOUNT.
THIS IS EASY FOR THE U.S.
TO DO.
PICK UP THE PHONE AND CALL THE HEADS OF THE STATES AND ENSURE THEY DON'T CONTINUE THIS ANYMORE.
>> NATHANIEL, YOU ARE SPEAKING TO US FROM YALE.
TWO DECADES AGO, COLLEGE CAMPUSES HELPED LEAD THE SAVE DARFUR MOVEMENT.
NOW WE SEE THAT COLLEGE CAMPUSES AS IT RELATES TO THIS PARTICULAR MASSACRE AND ISSUE ARE RATHER QUIET.
WE HAVE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY MOBILIZE AND THE RESPONSE AFTER OCTOBER 7th AND THE PRO-PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT THERE.
IT WENT ON FOR MONTHS.
ARE YOU SURPRISED?
WHY DON'T YOU THINK WE ARE SEEING THE SAME AMOUNT OF TURNOUT AND SUPPORT FOR THOSE CIVILIANS IN DARFUR AND EL-FASHER?
>> I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE CITY OF DARFUR MOVEMENT WAS UNPRECEDENTED IN TERMS OF THE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES THAT WENT FROM ALL SORTS OF COMMUNITIES, WITH REAL PRESSURE FROM THE RIGHT, FROM THE EE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY.
IT WAS WELL- FUNDED.
I THINK A GENERATION LATER, FREDERICK DOUGLASS' POINT HE MADE ABOUT THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY, POWER CAN SEIZE NOTHING WITHOUT DEMAND.
IN THIS CASE, THERE WAS NO DEMAND.
THERE WAS NO ORGANIZATION.
THERE WAS NO BUILT-IN CONSTITUENCY AS WAS THE CASE WITH GAZA, ET CETERA.
NOW, THESE PEOPLE ARE DYING IN ABSOLUTE OBSCURITY.
>> WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO COLLEGE STUDENTS?
WE HAVE SEEN HOW CAMPUSES ACROSS THE WORLD HAVE MOBILIZED.
THEY HAVE ATTRACTED MEDIA ATTENTION, WALL-TO- WALL COVERAGE.
COULD THEY BE INFLUENTIAL HERE IN TERM THIS WAS PARTICULAR CRISIS?
>> RIGHT NOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A MASS CASUALTY EVENT THAT COULD RIVAL HERE ROW IROSHIMA AND NA NAGASAKI.
DO SOMETHING.
IN A MATTER OF HOURS OR DAYS IS THE SCALE OF TIME WE ARE WORKING ON HERE.
CALL YOUR CONGRESS PERSON.
CALL YOUR SENATOR, DO WHATEVER YOU CAN NOW.
WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
>> HAMID, THE LAST WORD.
>> THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT A CIVIL WAR INSIDE SUDAN THAT IS CONTAINED TO THE BORDERS OF SUDAN.
THIS IS SOMETHING THE INTERNATIONAL ACTORS AND AUDIENCE AND SO ON NEED TO GET TRIED IN THE U.S.
THIS IS VERY MUCH AN INTERNATIONAL WAR THAT IS FUELLED BY ARMS THAT ARE PROVIDED BY ACTORS ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES, ACTORS WHO BUY ARMS FROM THE U.S.
IT'S AN INTERNATIONAL WAR THAT THE WORLD IS CONTRIBUTING TO IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
IF YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE ISOLATED FROM THIS, THAT IS NOT THE CASE.
>> NATHANIEL AND HAMID.
NATHANIEL, WE WILL STAY IN TOUCH WITH YOU AND APPRECIATE THE IMPORTANT WORK YOU ARE DOING.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO COVER AND HIGHLIGHT THE ATROCITIES HAPPENING IN EL-FASHER AND SUDAN.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> IF YOU HAVE BEEN CURIOUS ABOUT A RANDOM TOPIC, CHANCES ARE YOU HAVE GONE TO WIKIPEDIA TO LEARN ABOUT IT.
IT HAS BEEN THE GO-TO ONLINE ENCYCLOPEDIA SINCE ITS LAUNCH IN 2001.
IT HAS A RIVAL, GROKIPEDIA.
AN AI ALTERNATIVE FROM ELON MUSK.
JIMMY WALES TALKS ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK "THE SEVEN RULES OF TRUST" AND HOW HE BELIEVES HIS INTERNET KNOWLEDGE BANK WILL FARE.
>> THANK YOU.
JIMMY WALES, THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> IN YOUR BOOK "THE SEVEN WORLDS OF TRUST," YOU TALK ABOUT CREATING WIKIPEDIA MORE THAN TWO DECADES AGO.
ON A STRANGE WHIM THAT EVERYBODY COULD GROUP EDIT AN ENCYCLOPEDIA.
UP WITH THING THAT STRUCK ME IS THE THEORY OF TRUST IN THE BOOK AND HOW THAT BEGAN IN SOME WAYS WITH YOUR DAUGHTER AND HER BIRTH.
>> YEAH.
RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF WIKIPEDIA, JUST BEFORE, MY DAUGHTER WAS BORN.
SHE WAS VERY SICK.
SHE HAD A SYNDROME.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT WAS.
FROM THE HOSPITAL I SORT OF TRIED TO --I RUSHED HOME AND CHECKED THE INTERNET.
I FOUND TECHNICAL ARTICLES AND NONSENSE.
I JUST --I HAD BEEN TRYING TO CREATE AN ENCYCLOPEDIA PROJECT.
I WAS NEARLY READY TO GIVE UP.
THAT WAS WHEN I WAS LIKE, OKAY, I HAVE TO --I CAN'T GIVE UP.
THIS FEELS LIKE IT'S IMPORTANT.
WE DECIDED TO CHANGE EVERYTHING AND BECOME A WIKI, A WEB SIDE --WEBSITE ANYONE CAN EDIT.
I HAVE THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE AND THEY WANT TO WRITE.
LET'S OPEN IT UP.
LET'S START WRITING AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
>> ABANDON THE OLD TOP-DOWN MODEL.
WE WILL WRITE EACH PIECE.
IT SEEMS LIKE A CRAZY LEAP TO SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, LET EVERYBODY WRITE.
>> FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, WE TRIED A VERY TOP-DOWN SYSTEM.
A SEVEN- STAGE REVIEW PROCESS TO GET ANYTHING PUBLISHED.
I TRIED TO DO IT TO WRITE AN ARTICLE.
IT WAS INTIMIDATING.
THEY WERE GOING TO SEND MY DRAFT OUT TO THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS PROFESSORS THEY COULD FIND.
THIS ISN'T FUN.
NOBODY IS REALLY GOING TO DO THIS.
WE HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT WHAT ARE WAYS.
ONE OF MY EMPLOYEES BROUGHT ME AND SHOWED ME THE WIKI.
THAT'S INTERESTING.
MAYBE WE SHOULD -- >> THE WIKI MEANING A WAY PEOPLE CAN GROUP SOME DOCUMENT.
>> EXACTLY.
THE WIKI HAD BEEN AROUND FOR FIVE YEARS AS A SORT OF UNDERGROUND SOFTWARE CONCEPT.
OKAY.
LET'S TRY TO USE A WIKI.
IT WORKED.
WE HAVE MORE WORK DONE IN TWO WEEKS THAN IN ALMOST TWO YEARS BECAUSE WE FINALLY JUST LET OUR COMMUNITY GET STARTED WRITING AND EDITING EACH OTHER'S WORK AND IMPROVING IT.
IT WAS REALLY A BREAKTHROUGH FOR THE PROJECT.
>> YOU SAY IT WAS BASED ON TRUST.
IN THESE POLARIZED TIMES WHERE EVERYTHING, WHETHER IT BE WEARING A MASK DURING COVID, BECOMES POLITICIZED, IS IT HARDER TO DO A WIKIFIED ENCYCLOPEDIA?
>> NOT REALLY.
THE POLARIZATION MAKES A LOT OF THINGS HARDER.
THAT'S UNFORTUNATE.
THE DECLINE IN TRUST AMONGST DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE.
THE IDEA THAT, HEY, YOU AND I MIGHT DISAGREE ABOUT THIS, BUT I TRUST THAT YOU ARE A SENSIBLE PERSON AND WE HAVE DIFFERENT BACKGROUND AND THEREFORE WE COME TO DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS, BUT WE CAN PROBABLY FIND A COMPROMISE, THAT'S THE SPIRIT OF WIKIPEDIA.
WE LOST IT IN THE WORLD TODAY.
THERE'S A LOT OF GREAT PEOPLE OUT THERE.
THERE'S A LOT OF STILL --I THINK WHAT GOES ON ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND REALLY POLARIZED MEDIA OF ALL KINDS DOESN'T REFLECT HOW NORMAL PEOPLE THINK AND LIVE.
I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE STILL PERFECTLY HAPPY TO SAY, YEAH, I DISAGREE WITH THERE PERSON POLITICALLY, BUT THEY'RE STILL MY FRIEND.
THAT'S OKAY.
>> A GROWING NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PUSHED BACK ON WIKI, RANGING FROM PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HERE, ELON MUSK, OR EVEN THE PERSON WHO WAS WITH YOU AT THE BEGINNER.
YOU ARE WOKE, YOU ARE SKEWED TOWARD THE ACADEMIC.
IS THAT TRUE?
>> SKEWED TOWARD THE ACADEMIC MIGHT BE TRUE.
CERTAINLY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT SOMETHING MEDICAL RELATED, WE PREFER THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE TO A LAB TABLOID NUB.
>> I'M TALKING ABOUT POLITICS.
>> WE HAVE A STRONG COMMITMENT TO NEUTRALITY.
THAT'S LIKE SUPER IMPORTANT.
DO WE ALWAYS HIT NEUTRALITY IN THE WAY I WOULD LIKE?
NO.
NOT ALWAYS.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE STRIVE FOR.
WHEN THERE ARE CRITICISMS, I THINK THE RIGHT ANSWER FOR US IS TO SAY, ALL RIGHT, LET'S DIG INTO THE DETAILS.
WHAT'S WRONG?
HOW DO WE FIX IT?
WHAT ARE THE SOURCES WE OVERLOOKED?
IF WE DON'T TAKE THAT SPIRIT OF SAYING, ACTUALLY, NEUTRAL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CORE PRINCIPLE OF WIKIPEDIA, WE HAVE TO DOUBLE DOWN ON THAT AND SAY, IT WOULD BE A HUGE MISTAKE TO SAY, THE WORLD HAS GOTTEN POLARIZED SO WE HAVE TO PICK A SIDE.
THE WORLD HAS GOTTEN POLARIZED.
WE NEED TO DESCRIBE THAT FAIRLY, BE THOUGHTFUL, KIND, UNDERSTANDING.
REALLY TRY HARD TO PRESENT ALL THE SIDES FAIRLY WHEN THERE'S A LEGITIMATE DEBATE.
>> ELON MUSK HAS BEEN ONE OF THE SEVERIST CRITICS.
JUST LAUNCHED GROKIPEDIA.
IT HAS BEEN CLOSE TO A MILLION ENTRIES.
A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CONCEPT.
IT'S NOT CROWD SOURCED.
IT'S NOT PEOPLE WRITING.
IT USES AI TO GATHER INFORMATION FROM ALL OVER THE INTERNET.
TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THAT.
>> I HAVEN'T HAD TIME TO SEE IT YET.
IT LAUNCHED BRIEFLY AND IT WAS TAKEN DOWN.
I'M DOING A BOOK TOUR.
SO I'M DOING EVERYTHING.
BY TOMORROW, I WILL KNOW MORE.
I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE REALLY TO LOOK AT IT.
PEOPLE HAVE SENT ME A FEW THINGS.
IT IS GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF MISTAKES AND ERRORS.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ELON MAYBE IS UNDERESTIMATING IS HOW HARD IT IS TO DO GOOD QUALITY REFERENCE MATERIAL AND TO REALLY GATHER ALL THE SOURCES AND ALSO IN OUR COMMUNITY, WE HAVE THESE REALLY LONG, INTENSE DEBATES ABOUT EDITORIAL MATTERS LIKE THE EXACT WORDING OF SENTENCES IS OFTEN --THEY ARE CAREFULLY CRAFTED BY PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE.
HOW CAN WE FIND A COMPROMISE WE CAN ACCEPT AS BEING FACTUAL?
YOU CAN'T -- WE KNOW ABOUT LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS IS THAT THEY CAN'T REALLY BE TRUSTED.
THEY MAKE MISTAKES.
THEY HALLUCINATE.
THEY MAKE STUFF UP OUT OF THIN AIR.
THEY LIKE TO PLEASE YOU.
THEY CAN BE HIGHLY DELODGIC -- IDEOLOGICALLY BIASES.
I'M SKEPTICAL.
WE WILL SEE.
>> DO YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO TRY SOME LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL THAT TAKES ARTICLES AND PRINTED THINGS FROM THE INTERNET AND TRIES TO YNTHESIZE IT?
>> I THINK THIS TECHNOLOGY IS AMAZING.
WE ARE LOOKING --WE HAVE A MACHINE LEARNING TEAM LOOKING INTO THIS.
I HAVE PERSONALLY --I WROTE A SCRIPT THAT CAN TAKE A SHORT ENTRY AND LOOK UP ALL THE SOURCES AT THE BOTTOM.
I ASK, IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE SOURCES THAT SHOULD BE IN WIKIPEDIA THAT ISN'T OR IT'S NOT SUPPORTED BY THE SOURCES?
GIVE ME SUGGESTIONS.
IT'S PRETTY GOOD.
IT ISN'T PERFECT.
IT NEEDS REFINEMENT.
I FEEL LIKE THAT'S PROBABLY A PATH OF SUPPORTING THE COMMUNITY BY SCANNING OVER THINGS AS SUGGESTING THINGS.
YOU CAN IMAGINE MAYBE TWO ENTRIES HAVE CONTRADICTORY INFORMATION.
COULD A LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL FIND THAT AND SAY, THIS ARTICLE SAYS MT.
EVEREST IS THIS HIGH AND THIS ARTICLE SAYS IT'S THAT HIGH.
LET'S DIG IN.
THAT KIND OF STUFF, USING TECHNOLOGY TO HELP THE COMMUNITY IMPROVE IT SEEMS LIKE A SENSIBLE THING TO DO.
IT'S GOING TO BE A LONG TIME BEFORE YOU DON'T NEED REAL HUMAN OVERSIGHT.
THESE AIs AREN'T THAT GOOD YET.
>> I HAVE BEEN USING GROKIPEDIA FOR THE PAST FEW DAYS.
I WAS SURPRISED AT HOW IT DOES TRY TO DO BALANCE BOTH THINGS EVEN ON CONTROVERSIAL THINGS.
I ASKED GROKIPEDIA, TELL ME ABOUT JIMMY WALES AND TELL ME ABOUT WIKIPEDIA.
THEY DECRY ITS OVERRELIANCE LEADING TORIGHT-LEANING DATA.
THAT READS LIKE A WIKIPEDIA.
>> IT DOES.
THAT'S A GOOD SUMMARY OF THE DEBATE, FOR SURE.
>> IT DOES GO ON TO SAY THAT IN SOME WAYS EVEN THOUGH IT HAS UNPRECEDENTED SCALE, IT NONETHELESS HAS A BIAS TOWARDS THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, WIKIPEDIA DOES.
IS THAT A FAIR CRITICISM?
I THINK LARRY, WHO WAS AT THE FOUNDING OF WIKIPEDIA WITH YOU, MAKES THAT CRITICISM AS WELL.
>> IT'S FAIR, BUT IS IT VALID AS A CRITICISM?
IT'S, OF COURSE, TRUE THAT WE DON'T TREAT FRINGE SOURCES, RANDOM BLOGS, TWEETS FROM CROCKPOTS AS BEING THE EQUIVALENT OF FACT-BASED RESEARCHED INFORMATION.
I'M UNAPOLOGETIC ABOUT THAT.
IF YOU SAY, WOW, WIKIPEDIA TREATS ACADEMIC MEDICAL JOURNALS AS BEING MORE IMPORTANT THAN RANDOM SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCERS, I'M GOING TO PLEAD GUILTY, UNAPOLOGETICALLY AND SAY, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
THEY SHOULDN'T BE THE SAME THING.
GETTING FACTS RIGHT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
YOU CAN'T TREAT FRINGE SOURCES AS IF THEY ARE JUST THE EQUAL OF MAINSTREAM SOURCES.
THERE'S A REASON THEY ARE MAINSTREAM, WHICH IS THAT THEY ARE TRIED, TRUE, TESTED.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN MAINSTREAM IS ALWAYS RIGHT, OF COURSE.
WE ALL KNOW OF INSTANCES WHERE THE WORLD THOUGHT ONE THING AND THEN OVER TIME EVIDENCE EMERGED AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD CHANGED.
THAT'S ALSO PART OF THE PROCESS.
I DON'T THINK YOU CAN SAY WE'RE GOING TO DO AWAY WITH ALL STANDARDS AND TREAT EVERY RANDOM UTTERANCE AS EQUAL.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT NEUTRALITY.
SOMETIMES IT'S HARD.
ONE OF THE CRITICISMS I THINK U.S.
CONGRESS EVEN DID IS THE EXTEND TO WHICH YOU COVER GAZA AND ISRAEL.
I WOULD LIKE TO READ YOU THE BEGINNING OF WHAT IS CALLED GAZA GENOCIDE IN WIKIPEDIA.
I READ IT LAST NIGHT.
IT SAYS, THE GAZA GENOCIDE IS THE ONGOING, INTENTIONAL AND SYSTEMATIC DESTRUCTION OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP CARRIED OUT BY ISRAEL.
IT DOESN'T SAY THIS IS ISRAEL --IS THERE SOME SENSE THAT THESE TYPE OF THINGS CAN HAPPEN IN WIKIPEDIA WHERE IT DOES HAVE A PARTICULAR BIAS?
>> THEY CAN.
THAT'S ONE OF THE WORST WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES I HAVE SEEN IN A LONG TIME.
I WAS SHOCKED TO SEE IT.
IT NEEDS TO CHANGE.
I THINK IT'S TERRIBLE.
IT DOESN'T LIVE UP TO OUR STANDARDS OF NEUTRALITY.
I THINK IT'S VERY PROBLEMATIC.
IT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT WOULD NOT REFLECT ON THE WAY WIKIPEDIA SHOULD WORK.
WE FLEED NEED TO FIX IT.
I WISH I COULD BE A PR DEFENDER AND SAY, OF COURSE, WIKIPEDIA IS PERFECT.
THAT WOULDN'T BUILD TRUST.
PEOPLE HAVE MORE TRUST IN WIKIPEDIA IF I ACKNOWLEDGE, WE DON'T ALWAYS GET IT RIGHT.
WHAT WE NEED ARE KIND AND THOUGHTFUL PEOPLE TO COME IN AND JOIN THE COMMUNITY AND HELP US FIX ANYTHING THAT'S NOT REALLY FAIR.
>> BECAUSE OF THE ENTRY ON GAZA AND OTHER THINGS, CONGRESS HAS SAID THEY WANT A SUBPOENA TO SAY WHO WHOSE THOSE PEOPLE.
YOUR PEOPLE ARE QUASIANONYMOUS.
DO YOU THINK IT'S OKAY TO GIVE UP THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO WRITE FOR WIKIPEDIA?
>> I THINK IT'S DEEPLY INAPPROPRIATE FOR THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT, UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT, TO START ATTACKING PEOPLE FOR BEING BIASED.
THERE'S NO -- IT'S COMPLETELY NOT IN THE AMERICAN TRADITION TO DO THAT SORT OF THING.
IT'S VERY McCARTHY ERA-ESQUE.
CLEARLY, WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT SORT OF THING.
THAT'S A RIDICULOUS THING FOR CONGRESS TO DO.
>> LET ME READ YOU A QUOTE THAT YOU SAID, WHICH IS, THE SUNNY, PRO-SOCIAL VIEW OF HUMAN NATURE THAT INSPIRED WIKIPEDIA MAY BE OUT OF FASHION, BUT I WILL INSIST THAT IT IS CORRECT.
UNPACK THAT FOR ME, PLEASE.
>> YEAH.
I MEAN, THE IS, WE GO AROUND AND WE MEET OTHER PEOPLE.
AS WE KNOW IN OUR NORMAL LIVES, WE THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY DECENT.
SOME PEOPLE ARE ANNOYING AND ALL OF THAT.
THE NUMBER OF TRULY MALICIOUS PEOPLE IN THE WORLD IS ACTUALLY VERY SMALL.
PEOPLE LOVE TO COME TOGETHER AND DO POSITIVE THINGS.
WE SEE ALL KINDS OF EXAMPLES OF THIS, ITY WORKS.
PEOPLE HELP EACH OTHER IN A POSITIVE SPIRIT.
I THINK WE ARE AT RISK OF FORGETTING THAT WHEN WE ARE THINKING ABOUT HUMAN NATURE THROUGH THE LENS OF LOOKING AT SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS THAT PRIORITIZE AND PROMOTE THE MOST TOXIC PEOPLE.
SUDDENLY, YOU GET THIS IDEA, WOW, THE WORLD IS FULL OF ANGRY, UPSET, HORRIBLE PEOPLE.
WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND YOU AND YOU ARE LIKE, ACTUALLY, MOST PEOPLE ARE NICE.
THAT'S WEIRD.
THOSE PEOPLE BECOME PROMINENT ON SOCIAL MEDIA, BECAUSE OF BAD ALGORITHMS THAT ARE PRIORITIZING THE WRONG THINGS.
>> ONE OF YOUR RULES IS, ASSUME GOOD FAITH.
DOES THAT WORK?
>> IT DOES.
IT DOES.
IT TURNS OUT, THERE'S A GREAT STORY IN THE BOOK ABOUT KAYLA KAYLANA.
THAT'S HER USER NAME.
SHE HAS BECOME RESPECTED.
SHE STARTED HER FIRST EVER EDIT TO WIKIPEDIA WAS VANDALISM, BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T BELIEVE YOU COULD REALLY DO THIS.
SOMEBODY CAME TO HER AND SAID, HEY -- >> SHE VANDALIZED ONE OF THE PAGES?
SHE WASN'T TING ABOUT VANDALISM?
>> SHE WROTE NONSENSE.
SOMEBODY SAID, WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.
SHE FELT SO BAD.
OH, THESE NICE PEOPLE ARE BEING NICE TO ME.
THEY ASSUME I WAS JUST DOING A TEST OR WHATEVER.
SHE THEN TURNED INTO THIS FANTASTIC WIKIPEDIA PERSON.
THAT'S AMAZING.
WE KNOW THIS.
YOU MEET SOMEBODY NEW FOR THE FIRST TIME AND YOU DON'T INSTANTLY THINK, WHAT'S THIS HORRIBLE PERSON GOING TO DO TO ME?
IF THAT IS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT MEETING NEW PEOPLE, THAT'S A PROBLEM IN YOUR LIFE.
YOU NEED TO WORK ON THAT.
GENERALLY, YEAH, APPROACH PEOPLE WITH AN OPEN HEART.
GREAT, NICE TO MEET YOU.
LET'S GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER.
ASSUMING GOOD FAITH OF PEOPLE, EVEN IF THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING YOU DON'T AGREE WITH, PROBABLY THEIR HEART IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE SOMEHOW, REALLY PAYS OFF ALMOST ALWAYS.
SOMETIMES NO.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE JUST HORRIBLE.
THAT'S TRUE, TOO.
BROADLY, JUST THAT INITIAL ASSUMPTION OF, HEY, LET'S DO SOMETHING GOOD TOGETHER, IT DOES WORK.
>> I HAD AN EXPERIENCE WITH WIKIPEDIA.
ON THE EINSTEIN ENTRY.
I WAS WRITING A BOOK.
IT KEPT SAYING THAT EINSTEIN HAD BEEN GIVEN A VISA BY THE KING ZOG OF SOMEWHERE.
IT WAS TOTALLY WRONG.
I WENT IN AND I CORRECTED IT.
THE PEOPLE WHO WERE PARTISANS OF THAT, KEPT PUTTING IT BACK IN.
FINALLY, I CITED THINGS, I GAVE THE SOURCES.
IT STAYED.
I SAID TO MYSELF, BOY, THAT PROVES YOU NEED EXPERTS DOING IT.
I WAS THINKING OF MYSELF AS AN EXPERT.
INSTEAD OF THE WISDOM OF CROWDS.
IT OCCURRED TO ME, I'M PART OF THE CROWD.
I WAS ONE OF MANY PEOPLE CONTRIBUTING.
IS THAT SORT OF THE MAGIC OF HOW THAT WORKS?
>> YEAH.
IT'S A GOOD ILLUSTRATION OF HOW GOOD QUALITY RELIABLE SOURCES ARE CRUCIAL.
IF IT'S JUST RANDOM PEOPLE'S OPINIONS UP AGAINST EACH OTHER, HOW DO YOU DECIDE?
IF YOU HAVE GOT A SOURCE, A HISTORIAN, DOCUMENTED FACT, GREAT, BRILLIANT.
THAT MOVES THE CONVERSATION FORWARD IN A GOOD WAY.
>> JIM MY WALES, THANK YOU.
>>> FINALLY, A HISTORIC WIN FOR INDIA.
FOR FIRST TIME EVER, INDIA HAS WON THE WOMEN'S CRICKET WORLD CUP TITLE.
AFTER BEATING SOUTH AFRICA IN THE FINAL.
IT WAS A MOMENT OF IMMENSE PRIDE FOR THE TEAM.
MANY FANS TOOK TO THE STREETS IN TRIUMPH.
CONGRATULATIONS.
>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM NIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PB.
ORG/AMANPOUR.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.