November 6, 2025

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

REPUBLICANS POINT FINGERS AFTER A DISMAL ELECTION DAY WHILE DONALD TRUMP MAKES NEW BASELESS CLAIMS OF RIGGING.

THE ATLANTIC'S DAVID GRAHAM SOUNDS THE ALARM ON VOTING SECURITY IN AMERICA.

>>> AND A HARROWING REPORT FROM LIBYA ABOUT THE GANGS WHO EXPLOIT DESPERATE MIGRANTS LOOKING FOR A BETTER LIFE.

>>> THEN THE 11th HOUR, SALMAN RUSHDIE SPEAKS WITH WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS LATEST WORK AND EXPLORATION OF LIFE AND DEATH.

>>> PLUS, UNDERWATER JOURNALISM, CLIMATE REPORTER RAYMOND JONG TELLS ME HOW HE CHASED A STORY ALL THE WAY TO THE DEPTHS OF THE OCEAN.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

>>> IT'S A TENSE TIME IN WASHINGTON AS REPUBLICANS ARE GRAPPLING WITH TUESDAY'S ELECTION LOSSES WHILE THE GOVERNMENT ENTERS THE 37th DAY OF THE NOW RECORD BREAKING SHUTDOWN.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THROWING OUT ALL KINDS OF REASONS TO TRY TO EXPLAIN SOME OF TUESDAY'S RESULTS, INCLUDING HIS GO-TO FALSE CLAIMS OF ELECTIONS RIGGING.

THESE ATTEMPTS TO SOW DISTRUST ABOUT THE SECURITY OF ELECTIONS WOULD BE ENOUGH ON THEIR OWN, BUT AS A NEW COVER STORY ON THE ATLANTIC EXAMINES, THIS ADMINISTRATION IS ALSO TAKING CONCRETE ACTIONS THAT UNDERMINE THAT VERY SECURITY.

THE CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY HAS SEEN ITS STAFFING CUT AROUND BY A THIRD WHILE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS HAVE BEEN CUT FROM ASSISTANCE TO LOCAL OFFICIALS.

AS ONE EXPERT TOLD THE ATLANTIC'S DAVID A. GRAHAM, IF YOU ARE NOT FRIGHTENED, YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

GRAHAM JOINS THE SHOW NOW TO DISCUSS HIS REPORTING.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

AS NOTED, WE'RE ON DAY 37, RECORD BREAKING DAY NOW FOR THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN, THE FIRST RECORD SET BY PRESIDENT TRUMP DURING HIS FIRST TERM.

YOU'VE WRITTEN A BOOK ON PROJECT 2025 CALLED THE PROJECT AND HOW IT SEEKS TO RESHAPE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

GIVEN ALL OF THE RESEARCH THAT YOU PUT INTO BOTH THAT BOOK AND NOW THIS PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC, HOW ARE YOU VIEWING THIS SHUTDOWN, THROUGH WHAT LENS?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT'S INTERESTING IS SEEING HOW THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IS USING THIS OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT FUNDING AND WHAT PROGRAMS GET FUNDED AND WHAT DON'T, WHETHER THAT'S S.N.A.P.

OR MILITARY SALARIES OR AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL, FOR EXAMPLE, WITHOUT CONGRESS' SAY-SO AND THAT IS VERY MUCH THE ANIMATING CONCEPT BETWEEN WITH 2025, THIS IDEA WE SHOULD EMPOWER THE PRESIDENT, THAT HE SHOULD NOT BE ENCUMBERED BY CONGRESS, THAT HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SPEND MONEY AS HE WANTS AND THAT OTHER BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T REALLY BE AN IMPEDIMENT.

WITH CONGRESS OUT AND WITH NO BUDGET IT SEEMS LIKE PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION ARE USING THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT AS FAR AS THEY CAN.

>> ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT SPEAKER JOHNSON IS SORT OF JUST THAT AND WEAKEN NOT ONLY HIS ROLE AS SPEAKER, BUT ANY POWER THAT REPUBLICANS MAY HAVE THAT YES, FOR THE MOST PART THEY HAVE ALWAYS VOTED WITH THE ADMINISTRATION AND SUPPORTED THE PRESIDENT, BUT IS THIS NOT WEAKENING HIS OWN LEADERSHIP?

>> I THINK IT IS AND THE WAY CONGRESS HAS INTERACTED WITH TRUMP IS A LITTLE BIT SURPRISING.

IN HIS FIRST TERM WE SAW CONGRESS REPEATEDLY STANDING UP TO TRUMP.

THIS TIME AROUND WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY OF THAT.

SO EVEN AS THE WHITE HOUSE KIND OF TRAMPLES ON CONGRESSIONAL PREROGATIVES, JOHNSON HAS TO REMAIN VERY CLOSELY ALIGNED WITH THE WHITE HOUSE AND I DO THINK THAT IT WEAKENS HIM IN THE IMMEDIATE TERM AND IT ALSO WEAKENS CONGRESS' ABILITY TO CHECK THE EXECUTIVE IN THE LONG RUN, WHETHER THAT'S UNDER TRUMP OR A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT.

>> SO THAT'S THE HOUSE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SENATE BECAUSE WE ARE AT LEAST GETTING SOME PUSHBACK FROM SENATE MAJORITY LEADER JOHN THUNE ON THE ISSUE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOW BEEN PUSHING FOR SEVERAL TO DO AWAY WITH THE FILIBUSTER, SENATE MAJORITY LEADER THINKING LONGER TERM SAYING THERE'S GOING TO BE A TIME WHEN WE'RE GOING TO BE IN THE MINORITY AND WE'RE GOING TO WANT THAT FILIBUSTER.

SO WE DON'T WANT TO DO AWAY WITH IT RIGHT NOW.

NONETHELESS, THE PRESIDENT REMAINS DEFIANT AND PUSHING FOR JUST THAT AND EVEN SUGGESTING THAT THAT IS THE REMEDY FOR THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTIONS TWO DAYS AGO.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> IT'S TIME FOR REPUBLICANS TO DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO AND THAT'S TERMINATE THE FILIBUSTER.

IT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN DO IT.

IF YOU DON'T TERMINATE THE FILIBUSTER, YOU'LL BE IN BAD SHAPE.

WE WON'T PASS ANY LEGISLATION.

THERE WILL BE NO LEGISLATION PASSED FOR --WE HAVE THREE AND A QUARTER YEARS LEFT.

THAT'S A LONG TIME.

>> WHAT WOULD ELIMINATING THE FILIBUSTER IN YOUR VIEW MEAN IN TERMS OF BALANCE OF POWER IN THIS COUNTRY AND MAINTAINING DEMOCRATIC GUARDRAILS?

>> I THINK HE'S CERTAINLY RIGHT THAT WE'RE UNLIKELY TO SEE A LOT OF LEGISLATION PASSED AS LONG AS THE FILIBUSTER IS IN REPUBLICAN MAJORITY, BUT REALLY IF THERE'S A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY AS WELL.

THE FILIBUSTER HAS GONE FROM BEING A RARELY USED TOOL TO SOMETHING THAT IS DEPLOYED ALL THE TIME.

IT'S EFFECTIVELY A WAY FOR THE MINORITY PARTY TO BLOCK ALMOST ANYTHING EXCEPT FOR BUDGET RESOLUTION.

I THINK THERE'S A CASE TO BE MADE THIS IS ACTUALLY A GOOD GOVERNANCE REFORM AND IT'S INTERESTING.

THERE ARE LIBERALS WHO WOULD MAKE THAT CASE AS WELL, BUT IT'S ALSO A WAY FOR TRUMP TO TRY TO FORCE THROUGH HIS AGENDA AND TO TRY TO MAKE SURE CONGRESS IS ON BOARD WITH THE THINGS HE WANTS TO DO.

>> HOW WORRIED IN YOUR VIEW IS THE PRESIDENT THAT HE, IF NOT ALREADY, IS ON HIS WAY TO BE A LAME DUCK?

OBVIOUSLY HE CAN'T RUN FOR A THIRD TERM.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE CONCERNS ABOUT THAT LATER ON IN THIS CONVERSATION, BUT GIVEN THAT, DOES THAT ALARM YOU COINCIDING WITH YOUR REPORTING AND WHAT YOU'RE HEARING FROM OTHERS ABOUT THE LENGTH THAT HE MAY GO TO TO MAINTAIN HIS POWER AND NOT BECOME LAME DUCK?

>> YEAH, VERY MUCH SO.

AND I THINK WE SEE A LOT OF SIGNS OF SORT OF LAME DUCK BEHAVIOR, THE FOCUS ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS A TYPICAL SECOND TERM PRESIDENT MOVE.

I THINK IT'S ANOTHER WAY TO TRY AND STAVE OFF BEING A LAME DUCK.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN EVEN WHEN THERE IS HIGH PUBLIC APPROVAL FOR THINGS, HE ISN'T SWAYED BY THAT.

IN THE FIRST TERM THAT SEEMED TO BE ONE CHECK ON HIM.

THIS TIME AROUND HE SEEMS TO BE SORT OF INDIFFERENT ABOUT POLLING AND I THINK THAT DOES MAKE IT HARDER FOR HIM TO BE CHECKED.

IF CONGRESS WON'T ACT, IF THE SUPREME COURT AND OTHER COURTS ARE OFTEN RULING FOR HIM AND IF PUBLIC OPINION DOESN'T DO MUCH, THERE'S NOT REALLY MANY THINGS TO STOP HIM FROM DOING WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

>> LET'S TALK NOW TO THIS ISSUE OF VOTER RIGGING AND ELECTION RIGGING BECAUSE THAT HAS BEEN A BIG CONCERN.

YOU GO TO GREAT LENGTHS ABOUT IT IN THIS PIECE AND I'D LIKE TO FIRST BEGIN BY WHAT WE SAW TUESDAY BECAUSE WE ALREADY HEARD FROM NOT ONLY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY, KAROLINE LEAVITT, RESPONDING TO ALLEGATIONS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT THERE WAS SOME ELECTION RIGGING AND VOTER RIGGING IN CALIFORNIA OVER PROPOSITION 50 INVOLVING REDISTRICTING.

HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID.

>> THE WHITE HOUSE IS WORKING ON AN EXECUTIVE ORDER TO STRENGTHEN OUR ELECTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY AND TO ASSURE THAT THERE COULD NOT BE BLATANT FRAUD, AS WE'VE SEEN IN CALIFORNIA WITH THEIR UNIVERSAL MAIL-IN VOTING SYSTEM.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT THERE IS FRAUD IN CALIFORNIA'S ELECTIONS.

IT'S JUST A FACT.

>> IS THAT JUST A FACT?

I MEAN IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK UP WHAT SHE JUST SAID?

>> THERE IS NOT EVIDENCE TO BACK THAT UP.

THE WHITE HOUSE HAS NOT PROVIDED IT AND IT'S REMARKABLE.

AT THIS POINT THEY HAD BEEN CLAIMING FRAUD IN SO MANY ELECTIONS THAT WE ALMOST DON'T EVEN BLINK WHEN THEY DO THAT.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN OF THESE MAIL- IN SYSTEMS IS THEY ARE SAFE AND SECURE.

THERE IS VERY OCCASIONALLY VOTER FRAUD IN MAIL-IN SYSTEMS, AS THERE ARE IN OTHER SYSTEMS.

IT'S NOT ON THE SCALE TO SHIFT AN ELECTION AND IN THIS CASE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAD ELECTION MONITORS IN CALIFORNIA KEEPING AN EYE ON THINGS AND HAS NOT PRODUCED ANY EVIDENCE FROM THOSE PEOPLE OF ANY FRAUD EITHER.

>> MORE BROADLY, WHAT'S THE IMPACT OF HEARING THOSE WORDS, NOT FROM FRINGE VOICES, BUT FROM THE WHITE HOUSE PRESS PODIUM?

>> I THINK IT MAKES THESE THINGS MORE REAL AND GIVES THEM THE IMPRESSION OF SERIOUSNESS AND THAT IN TURN UNDERMINES FAITH IN THE VOTING SYSTEM CONSISTENTLY.

I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO BE ABLE TO TRUST THE ELECTION RESULTS ARE REAL.

ELECTIONS REQUIRE THE CONSENT OF THE WINNERS AND THE LOSERS AND IF PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THEY'VE ACTUALLY LOST, IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO BOW TO THE MAJORITY WILL.

I THINK IT UNDERMINES THE ABILITY TO FUNCTION IN A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM.

>> SO THIS IS JUST A MICROCOSM FROM THE ELECTIONS TUESDAY THAT YOU'RE WARNING ABOUT THAT WE COULD SEE NEXT YEAR DURING THE MIDTERMS AND LET'S MOVE TO YOUR COVER ARTICLE ON THE ATLANTIC FOR MORE ON THIS.

YOU LAY OUT A CHILLING PREMISE AND THAT IS DONALD TRUMP'S PLAN TO SUBVERT THE MIDTERMS IS ALREADY UNDERWAY.

ONE HEADLINE READS "DONALD TRUMP'S PLANS TO THROW THE 2026 MIDTERMS INTO CHAOS ARE ALREADY UNDERWAY."

WHAT CONCRETE TACTICS ARE UNDERWAY THAT YOU TALK ABOUT?

>> SO WE SEE SEVERAL THINGS.

ONE IS THIS ATTEMPT TO SUGGEST FRAUD.

ANOTHER THING IS WE HAVE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ASKING FOR VOTER ROLLS, SOMETIMES IN VIOLATION OF STATE LAWS FROM PLACES.

WE SEE ATTEMPTS TO SORT OF BULLY ELECTION OFFICIALS.

WE HEARD IN THAT CLIP KAROLINE LEAVITT TALKING ABOUT AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ON ELECTIONS.

THE PRESIDENT HAS IN SEVERAL CASES ATTEMPTED TO ASSERT AUTHORITY OVER ELECTIONS HE DOESN'T HAVE.

THE PRESIDENT SIMPLY DOESN'T HAVE MUCH SAY-SO ON ELECTIONS.

CONGRESS HAS SOME AND MOST OF THIS IS RUN AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, BUT WE'VE SEEN TRUMP TRYING TO, FOR EXAMPLE, MANDATE WHAT VOTES TO DECERTIFY THE VOTING MACHINES THEY USE TO TELL THEM HOW TO COUNT BALLOTS.

SO THESE ALL LOOK LIKE INTERFERENCE AND IT'S IN THE CONTEXT OF A GENERAL BULLYING THE MEDIA, ATTEMPTING TO INTIMIDATE POLITICAL PHONES BY INVESTIGATING OR CHARGING THEM WITH CRIMES.

ALL THESE TOGETHER CREATE A SORT OF BROAD ATMOSPHERE OF VOTER SUPPRESSION AND OF TILTING THE PLAYING FIELD.

>> YOU OPEN THE PIECE WITH A FICTIONAL BUT PLAUSIBLE SCENARIO AND THAT IS MARINES SEIZING VOTING BALLOTS IN ARIZONA.

JUST WALK US THROUGH SOME OTHER POSSIBLE SCENARIOS THAT YOU ENVISION AND I GUESS WHAT KEEPS YOU UP AT NIGHT IS WHAT YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF YET.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE THE POSSIBILITIES.

NOBODY I THINK REALLY ANTICIPATED SOMETHING LIKE JANUARY 6th , 2021, BEFORE IT HAPPENED AND I'M NOT SURE MANY PEOPLE ANTICIPATED THE KIND OF BROAD LEGAL EFFORT TRUMP MOUNTED AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WORRY ABOUT AND THAT VOTING EXPERTS WORRY ABOUT A LOT IS THE PRESENCE OF POTENTIALLY THE MILITARY OR OTHER ARMED LAW ENFORCEMENT ON THE STREETS AROUND THE ELECTION.

OBVIOUSLY WE'VE SEEN THE NATIONAL GUARD AND IN SOME CASES MARINES ON THE STREETS, I.C.E.

AND OTHER FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THAT'S A WAY THAT CAN INTERFERE WITH ELECTIONS AS WELL.

IT MAY DRIVE TURNOUT DOWN.

IT CAN CREATE INCONVENIENCES.

IT CAN INTIMIDATE PEOPLE.

SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT ELECTION OFFICIALS ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT AND WE HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE.

IN ADDITION TO THE SEIZING OF THE VOTING MACHINES THAT ULTIMATELY THE WHITE HOUSE DIDN'T GO FORWARD WITH.

>> WE TALK ABOUT THE TERMS OF THE WEAKENING CONGRESS IN TERMS OF THE CHECKS AND BALANCES IN PLACE, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE JUDICIARY?

AND YOU HAVE EVIDENCE NOW FROM TRUMP'S FIRST TERM OF LOWER COURTS TOSSING OUT CASES THAT IT FOUND DIDN'T MERIT SOME OF THE APPEALS ADMINISTRATION WAS MAKING THERE.

YOU HAVE THE SUPREME COURT, A MAJORITY OF THESE JUSTICES AS WE HAVE SEEN AS OF LATE HAVE BEEN SIDING MORE WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION AND EXECUTIVE POWER, BUT EVEN, FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE TARIFFS CASE THEY HAVEN'T RULED YET, BUT FROM WHAT WE HEARD YESTERDAY FROM ORAL ARGUMENTS, THEY WERE QUITE SKEPTICAL ABOUT THE ARGUMENTS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WAS MAKING IN SUPPORT OF THESE TARIFFS.

IS THERE ANY SOLACE TO TAKE IN THE POWER OF THE JUDICIARY IN INTERVENING IF THEY FIND THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS OVERSTEPPING HERE?

>> I DO THINK THAT THE COURTS ARE A REALLY IMPORTANT CHECK AND THEY'RE ONE THAT I THINK HAS BEEN FAIRLY STRONG ON A LOT OF ELECTION ISSUES.

WE SAW A REALLY UNUSUAL CASE IN NORTH CAROLINA IN 2024 BASICALLY OF TRYING TO CHANGE AN ELECTION RESULT AFTER THE FACT AND THAT WAS STOPPED BY A FEDERAL COURT.

FEDERAL COURTS HAVE CONSISTENTLY RULED AGAINST ATTEMPTS TO SHIFT ELECTIONS AND I EVEN TALKED TO SOME DEMOCRATIC LAWYERS WHO SAID LOOK, I'M NO FAN OF A LOT OF THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, BUT I HAVE FAITH THAT IN ELECTION CASES THEY GENERALLY DO MAKE THE RIGHT CALL AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO START THROWING OUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM OR SUBVERTING IT IN A MAJOR WAY.

>> YOU ALSO RIGHT OFF THE BAT THAT TRUMP WILL NOT CANCEL ELECTIONS, BUT WE SHOULDN'T BE RESTING ASSURED THAT ALL WILL GO WELL AND WITHOUT SORT OF THE ADMINISTRATION STEPPING IN AND OVERREACHING HERE BECAUSE YOU NOTE THAT OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD WHERE YOU HAVE AUTHORITARIANS IN PLACE IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT RUSSIA, TURKEY, AND HUNGARY, FOR EXAMPLE, THESE ARE COUNTRIES RUN BY LEADERS WHO LIKE TO HAVE AND HOST ELECTIONS, BUT OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE NOT FREE AND FAIR.

SO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE CONCERNS AND PARALLELS YOU MAY SEE OR YOU WORRY ABOUT HERE WITH DONALD TRUMP.

>> YEAH.

I'VE HAD PEOPLE ASK ME IF WE'LL HAVE ELECTIONS IN 2026 AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES.

TRUMP WOULD NOT BE, FOR EXAMPLE, PUSHING REPUBLICAN STATES TO REDISTRICT IF HE DIDN'T EXPECT TO HAVE WHAT WE SEE IN COUNTRIES LIKE THOSE IS A KIND OF MODERN VARIETY OF AUTHORITARIANISM WHERE YOU DON'T BAN THE OPPOSITION PARTY.

YOU DON'T CANCEL ELECTIONS.

YOU DON'T BAN AN OPPOSITION MEDIA ENTIRELY.

YOU JUST MAKE IT MUCH HARDER FOR THE OPPOSITION TO COMPETE.

SO THERE'S AN ELECTION, BUT THEY CAN'T FUNDRAISE AS EFFECTIVELY OR THEY DON'T HAVE THE MEDIA GET TO IT OR THE VOTES ARE SUPPRESSED IN SOME WAY.

THAT WAY FROM THE OUTSIDE IT LOOKS LIKE A DEMOCRACY.

VOTERS HAVE A SENSE THEY HAVE A SAY, BUT IN PRACTICE YOU DON'T HAVE TO YIELD UP A LOT OF POWER.

WE SEE IN INTIMIDATION OF THE MEDIA, IN ARRESTS AND INVESTIGATIONS OF ADVERSARIES, FOR EXAMPLE, A LOT OF THE STEPS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE TURKEY OR HUNGARY NOW TAKING PLACE HERE.

>> I MENTIONED EARLIER CONCERNS ABOUT TRUMP NOT LEAVING OFFICE, THOUGH CONSTITUTIONALLY IT'S VERY CLEAR HE CAN ONLY SERVE TWO TERMS.

CONSERVATIVE JUDGE J. MICHAEL LETTICK WARNS TRUMP IS POSITIONING HIMSELF.

THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO EGG ON DEMOCRATS BY CONSTANTLY WEARING 2028 HATS AND SUGGESTING PERHAPS THERE COULD BE A WAY FOR HIM TO RUN AGAIN FOR A THIRD TERM.

HERE'S HOW TRUMP ADDRESSED THIS ISSUE.

>> IT'S A VERY INTERESTING THING.

THE BEST NUMBERS FOR ANY PRESIDENT MANY YEARS, ANY PRESIDENT, AND I WOULD SAY IF YOU READ IT, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR.

I'M NOT ALLOWED TO RUN.

IT'S TOO BAD, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF GREAT PEOPLE.

>> OKAY.

SO SHOULD WE BE REASSURED BY THAT RESPONSE?

IT IS TRUMP.

ARE REPUBLICANS TROLLING DEMOCRATS WHEN THEY CONSTANTLY THROW OUT THIS IDEA OR IS THERE REASON FOR CONCERN LIKE THE JUDGE IS SUGGESTING?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS GOOD THAT HE'S SAYING THAT.

THAT IS GOOD, ALTHOUGH TRUMP MAY CHANGE HIS MIND.

SO WE CAN'T TAKE THAT AS THE FINAL WORD.

I THINK THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF TROLLING INTO IT, BUT I THINK WE SHOULDN'T FEEL TOTALLY SAFE ABOUT IT.

I THINK BACK OFTEN TO A QUOTE A SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL GAVE TO THE "WASHINGTON POST" IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE 2020 ELECTION WHERE HE SAID WHAT'S THE HARM IN HUMORING TRUMP'S CLAIMS THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN?

IT'S NOT LIKE HE'S GOING TO TRY AND STAY IN OFFICE?

FOR A FACT, THAT'S WHAT WE SAW.

I THINK THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT.

WE NEED TO KEEP AN EYE ON IT AND STAND UP FOR THE CONSTITUTION AND MAKE SURE THE RULES DO HOLD.

>> DAVID A. GRAHAM, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

IT'S A VERY THOUGHTFUL PIECE, ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO READ IT.

>>> NOW TO A DEEPLY TROUBLING LOOK AT THE EXPLOITATION OF MIGRANTS IN SEARCH OF A BETTER LIFE.

GLOBAL IMMIGRATION HAS HIT RECORD LEVELS THIS YEAR, FLEEING WAR AND PROSECUTION MANY AFRICANS DESPERATE TO REACH THE WEST PASSING THROUGH LIBYA WHERE SOME ARE CAPTURED BY CRIMINAL GANGS.

A WARNING, WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO SEE IS DISTURBING.

CNN HAS IDENTIFIED VIDEOS OF THESE MIGRANTS BEING BRUTALLY TORTURED.

THOSE VIDEOS ARE THEN SENT TO FAMILY MEMBERS AROUND THE WORLD ALONG WITH A DEMAND FOR THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN RANSOM.

ISABELLE YOUNG TRAVELED TO THE HEART OF THE STORY IN LIBYA WHERE THIS TERRIFIC ABUSE IS TAKING PLACE.

>> Reporter: ALL ACROSS THE WORLD EVERY SINGLE DAY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE RECEIVING THE MOST HORRIFIC VIDEOS OF THEIR LOVED ONES.

THEY'RE BEING BEATEN, TIED UP, HUMILIATED.

THESE ARE MEN AND WOMEN TORTURED ON CAMERA AS THEY BEG FOR THEIR LIVES AND THE CAPTORS ARE DEMANDING MONEY.

OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS I'VE SEEN MANY OF THESE TORTURE VIDEOS, EACH ONE MORE HARROWING THAN THE ONE BEFORE.

WE'RE IN LIBYA WHERE THIS ABUSE IS RAMPANT.

TO FIND OUT HOW SUCH DEPRAVITY IS TAKING PLACE ON SUCH A HUGE SCALE AND WHO IS RESPONSIBLE.

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST FOR ONE PERSON'S FREEDOM?

AS GLOBAL IMMIGRATION REACHES RECORD LEVELS, THIS IS A STORY OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A DESPERATE SEARCH FOR FREEDOM COLLIDES WITH A HUMAN TRAFFICKING NETWORK THAT PREYS ON THE WORLD'S MOST VULNERABLE.

THOSE FLEEING WAR AND PERSECUTION IN COUNTRIES LIKE SUDAN, ETHIOPIA, ERITREA COME TO SOMALIA IN HOPES OF REACHING EUROPE, THE UK, AMERICA.

WE SPOKE TO DOZENS OF FAMILIES ABROAD WHO ARE RECEIVING VIDEOS OF THEIR LOVED ONES BEING TORTURED DAILY.

THEIR CAPTIVES DEMAND MONEY.

HOW DOES IT FEEL AS HIS SISTER WATCHING THIS?

WE UNCOVERED PAY SLIPS.

EVEN MORE MONEY IS BELIEVED TO GO THROUGH INFORMAL NETWORKS.

THE GOING RATE FOR FREEDOM IS 6 TO 10,000 U.S.

DOLLARS.

OFFICIALS SAY EVERY MONTH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ARE SENT FROM FAMILIES IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA TO THOSE INFLICTING PAIN ON THEIR LOVED ONES IN LIBYA.

WE'VE COME TO THE SOUTHERN LIBYAN BORDER WHERE MIGRANTS ARE KIDNAPPED BY ARMED GANGS AS SOON AS THEY ENTER.

AUTHORITIES SAY THEY'RE OVERWHELMED WITH THE INFLUX OF RECENT ARRIVALS.

SEVERAL HUNDRED MIGRANTS ARE BEING HELD IN THIS DETENTION CENTER AFTER ILLEGALLY CROSSING INTO THE COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE NOT LEFT THIS ROOM FOR THREE MONTHS?

>> YEAH.

WE STAY HERE, YES.

>> Reporter: PEOPLE ARE SICK.

>> THEY ARE SICK.

>> Reporter: I'M NOT SURPRISED PEOPLE ARE GETTING SICK.

IT'S CROWDED.

CONDITIONS.

CRAMMED IN AMONG THEM IS A MAN WHO HAS JUST BEEN ARRESTED ON SUSPICION OF COLLECTING MONEY FOR RANSOMS.

THE POLICE INTERROGATE HIM OVER HIS INVOLVEMENT.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: IT SEEMS LIKE HE'S SAYING HE'S INVOLVED IN THE HAWALA SYSTEM TAKING MONEY FROM THESE MIGRANTS AND PAYING HIS BOSS, A BIG TRAFFICKER.

THE SUSPECT HANDS OVER CRUCIAL DETAILS ABOUT A FARM WHERE HE SAYS THE MIGRANTS WHO PAID THEM HIM ARE HELD FOR RANSOM.

THE POLICE GEAR UP AND PLAN TO RAID THE PREMISES.

THESE GUYS ARE HEADING TOWARDS A LOCATION THEY BELIEVE A TRAFFICKER IS OPERATING WHERE HE'S HOLDING MIGRANTS THEY BELIEVE HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND HELD FOR RANSOM.

THEY ARE SEARCHING THROUGH THIS ROOM WHERE THEY BELIEVE MIGRANTS ARE BEING HELD.

IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'VE FLED OR BEEN TAKING TO THE NEXT ONE.

[ THE ALLEGED PERPETRATORS ARE NO LONGER HERE AND THE AUTHORITIES DON'T SEEM TO HAVE A PLAN FOR CATCHING THEM, LEAVING UNKNOWN NUMBERS OF MIGRANTS STILL UNDER THE CONTROL OF THEIR CAPTORS.

WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE OFTEN THE MOST VULNERABLE.

IN THIS DETENTION CENTER ALMOST EVERYONE TELLS US THEY'VE BEEN TRAFFICKED AND TORTURED.

MOSTLY ETHIOPIANS AND BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY'VE BEEN THROUGH, WE'RE KEEPING SOME PEOPLE HERE ANONYMOUS.

>> THOSE GUYS, THEY TOUCH ME AND THEY DO SOMETHING EVERYWHERE.

>> LIKE FOUR BOYS, THEY GO LIKE THAT.

>> Reporter: FOUR MEN CAME TO ABUSE YOU AT THE SAME TIME?

>> THEY TOUCH YOU.

>> Reporter: I'M SO SORRY.

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'VE BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED.

HAVE YOU HAD ANY MEDICAL TREATMENT FOR IT?

NONE.

>> THEY CHECKED ME LIKE FOR PREGNANT.

>> Reporter: YOU'RE NOT PREGNANT.

>> NO, I'M NOT PREGNANT, BUT IT'S HARD TOO MUCH.

I COULDN'T DO -- >> Reporter: YOU'VE BEEN HURTING YOURSELF.

ON THIS ARM, ON THIS ARM?

IT'S SO AWFUL TO HEAR SOMEONE WHO IS SO YOUNG, YOU'RE JUST 16 YEARS OLD, TALK ABOUT NOT WANTING TO LIVE ANYMORE.

EVERY GIRL IS THE SAME.

SUDDENLY EVERYONE IN THE ROOM BREAKS DOWN.

>> Reporter: EVERYONE.

I MEAN IT'S ACTUALLY UNBEARABLE THE AMOUNT OF PAIN IN THIS ONE ROOM, JUST EVERY SINGLE WOMAN, CHILD IN HERE, JUST SEEMS LIKE THEY'VE SUFFERED THE MOST HORRIFIC EXPERIENCE IMAGINABLE.

GIRLS AS YOUNG AS 14, CHILDREN, PREGNANT WOMEN, THESE ARE JUST A SMALL SAMPLE OF TRAFFICKED THROUGH A LIVING HELL.

SOME DON'T MAKE IT.

EARLIER THIS YEAR TWO MASS GRAVES WERE DISCOVERED IN THIS AREA CONTAINING 74 MIGRANTS.

THAT AUTOPSY REPORT SHOWS SIGNS OF TORTURE.

SOME HAD BEEN SHOT.

IT'S RARE THAT AUTHORITIES GET TO THE TORTURE SITES IN TIME.

BACK IN 2022 ACTING ON A TIP- OFF FROM MIGRANTS WHO ESCAPED THEY WERE ABLE TO FREE OVER 150 PEOPLE.

THEY WERE HELD INSIDE THESE ROOMS FOR MONTHS AND SAID THEY'D BEEN BRUTALLY ABUSED.

STANDING OUTSIDE GUARDING THE ROOMS WAS AN ERITREAN FAN.

HE WAS ARRESTED BY THE POLICE AND WEAPONRY WAS SEIZED.

IN THIS FOOTAGE YOU CAN SEE THE NEWLY RELEASED MIGRANTS POINTING AND SCREAMING.

TO MEET IN A HIGH SECURITY PRISON.

HE'S BEEN CONVICTED OF KIDNAPPING AND IS SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE.

HE SAYS HE'S INNOCENT AND THAT HE WAS ONE OF THE MIGRANTS BEING TRAFFICKED RATHER THAN SOMEONE RESPONSIBLE.

THERE WAS PHONE EVIDENCE THERE WAS AMMUNITION, WEAPONS.

IT SEEMS LIKE A WILD COINCIDENCE THAT YOU HAD ABSOLUTELY NO INVOLVEMENT IN THIS.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT SO MANY MIGRANTS THAT YOU WERE WITH THAT DAY SAY THEY WERE TORTURED AND ABUSED AND TREATED HORRIFICALLY AND YOU'RE SAYING YOU SAW NOTHING?

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: WHY IS IT ERITREANS END UP WORKING IN THESE HUMAN TRAFFICKING NETWORKS?

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: DO YOU HAVE ANY REGRETS OR REMORSE OVER [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: THIS BUSINESS IS BIGGER THAN ONE MAN.

THE NETWORK HE WAS ACCUSED OF OPERATING IN STRETCHES ACROSS THIS VAST DESERT AND HAS LINKS TO TRAFFICKERS IN UGANDA, ETHIOPIA, AND THE EMIRATES.

THE MAN IN CHARGE OF PREVENTING TRAFFICKING IN THIS REGION IS COLONEL MUHAMMAD ALI, ALFADIL.

THERE ARE REPORTS FROM AN EXPERT PANEL LAST YEAR WHICH FOUND EVIDENCE OF COLLABORATION BETWEEN THE LIBYAN AUTHORITIES IN THIS REGION AND THE TRAFFICKERS THEMSELVES, ESSENTIALLY TURNING A BLIND EYE IN EXCHANGE FOR A SHARE IN THE PROFITS.

IS THAT CORRUPTION HAPPENING UNDER YOUR WATCH?

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: YOU THINK THAT THE PEOPLE CARRYING OUT THE TRAFFICKING AND TORTURING ARE JUST FIVE STEPS AHEAD OF YOU GUYS BECAUSE I MEAN WE SPENT SEVERAL DAYS WITH YOUR MEN?

THEY WERE NOT LOOKING FOR PEOPLE.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO DO SO.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: HE'S RIGHT.

LIBYA CAN'T TACKLE THIS ALONE, BUT WHILE A RISE IN ANTI- IMMIGRATION POLITICS IS FAILING TO TRANSLATE INTO INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION, MANY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE MAKING THIS TREACHEROUS JOURNEY WILL CONTINUE TO LIVE THROUGH THIS NEVER ENDING NIGHTMARE.

>>> NOW SALMAN RUSHDIE LIVED FOR DECADES UNDER THE THREAT OF A DEATH SENTENCE AND THEN IN 2022 HE SURVIVED A KNIFE ATTACK WHICH LEFT HIM BLIND IN ONE EYE.

THE AWARD WINNING AUTHOR IS NO STRANGER TO HIS OWN MORTALITY.

THREE YEARS AFTER THAT BRUTAL ATTACK HE'S CHANNELING HIS EXPERIENCES IN A NEW WORK OF FICTION.

"THE 11th HOUR" IS A QUINTET OF SHORT STORIES EXPLORING LIFE, DEATH, AND WHAT BECOMES CLEAR IN LIFE'S PROVERBIAL 11th HOUR.

RUSHDIE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE PROJECT AND WHAT A CLOSE ENCOUNTER WITH DEATH TAUGHT HIM.

>> THANK YOU, BY BIANNAI, AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW, SALMAN RUSHDIE.

YOU'VE GOT A NEW BOOK OUT NOW OF SHORT STORIES CALLED "11th HOUR," BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT, JUST HOW ARE YOU?

>> I'M NOT SO BAD, THANK YOU.

I THINK I'M BETTER THAN I WAS WHEN WE SPOKE ABOUT "KNIFE."

I'VE MADE A PRETTY GOOD RECOVERY, THANK YOU.

THAT HELP OPEN THE WAY FOR YOU TO GET BACK TO FICTION?

>> IT REALLY DID, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I FELT UNTIL I DEALT WITH THE ATTACK IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO THINK ABOUT FICTION AND WHAT HAPPENED IS ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER FINISHING THE MEMOIR IT'S LIKE THAT DOOR IN MY HEAD OPENED AGAIN, YOU KNOW, AND I WAS ABLE TO GO INTO THE WORLD OF THE IMAGINATION ONCE AGAIN.

IT WAS ACTUALLY KIND OF JOYFUL.

>> THAT'S A WONDERFUL LINE.

THE DOOR IN MY HEAD OPENED TO THE IMAGINATION.

DESCRIBE THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE TO ME.

I'D LOVE TO HAVE THAT DOOR OPEN IN MY HEAD.

>> WELL, IT'S JUST FOR A COUPLE YEARS AFTER THE ATTACK I HAD NO STORIES IN MY HEAD.

THE ONLY THING I COULD THINK ABOUT AND THINK THROUGH WAS THE ATTACK AND ITS NATURE AND ITS CONSEQUENCES AND SO ON, BUT THE MOMENT I FINISHED WRITING ABOUT IT, SOMEHOW I TOLD MYSELF THAT'S DONE, DEALT WITH, FINISHED AND WHEN I COULD DRAW A LINE UNDER IT IN THAT WAY, SUDDENLY THE STORIES STARTED TO COME BACK.

IT WAS JUST AS IF BY MAGIC.

>> YOU'VE HAD THE FATWA THAT WAS THE SORT OF SENDANT ON YOUR LIFE THEY TRIED TO DO AND THEN YOU HAD THE KNIFE ATTACK.

DO EACH OF THESE THINGS REINFORCE EACH OTHER?

HOW DO YOU BREAK YOUR HEAD OUT OF THAT?

>> NO.

I THINK I SPENT A LOT OF MY LIFE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS KIND OF ATTACK AND I DON'T KNOW.

I GUESS I'M A LITTLE HARDENED TO IT.

I KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH IT AND WHAT I'VE MANAGED TO DO ALL THESE YEARS, THE FIRST ATTACK WAS WAY BACK IN 1989, IS I'VE MANAGED TO CONTINUE WITH MY WORK.

I'M PROUD OF THAT.

I MEAN THE SATANIC VERSES WAS MY FIFTH PUBLISHED BOOK, MY FOURTH PUBLISHED NOVEL.

THIS, "THE 11th HOUR," IS MY ACTUALLY MOST OF MY LIFE AS A WRITER HAS BEEN SINCE THAT HOSTILITY BEGAN AND I'VE MANAGED TO OVERCOME IT TO MY SATISFACTION I THINK.

>> YOU'VE OVERCOME IT, BUT IN SOME WAYS HAS IT INFORMED YOU?

HAS IT SORT OF PUSHED MORE?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW IS THE ANSWER.

I THINK IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT MY WRITING WILL BE LIKE IF NOTHING EVER HAPPENED TO ME, BUT AT LEAST I MANAGED TO GO ON DOING THE WORK AND THESE STORIES REALLY KIND OF CAME OUT VERY FLUENTLY.

IT'S AS IF THE IMAGINATION HAD BEEN WAITING TO BE RELEASED AND THE STORIES CAME OUT IN A FLOOD.

>> YOU CALL IT THE 11th HOUR.

THE PHRASE KIND OF EVOKES IT'S A LAST POSSIBLE CHANCE YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE THINKING, TOO?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING, YOU KNOW, THAT TIME IS SHORT AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LEARNED FROM THE ATTACK AGAINST ME, IF YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN A SECOND CHANCE BECAUSE I'M QUITE LUCKY TO HAVE SURVIVED IT AND IF YOU HAVE THE GOOD FORTUNE TO BE GIVEN A SECOND ACT OF LIFE, DON'T WASTE IT.

USE THE TIME.

DO AS MUCH AS YOU CAN AND SO THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO.

I'M TRYING TO FILL UP THE DAYS WITH WORK.

>> SO YOU HAVE THIS WONDERFUL STORY, THE MUSICIAN OF KAHANI AND IT BRINGS YOU BACK TO I THINK YOUR CHILDHOOD IN INDIA WHERE YOU'VE BEEN BEFORE IN YOUR FICTION.

TELL ME ABOUT CIRCLING BACK TO PLACES THAT ARE ALMOST OUGHT AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL.

>> NOT ALMOST, DEFINITELY AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL.

IN MY HOMETOWN BOMBAY THERE'S THIS TINY, LITTLE NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE I GREW UP IN THIS GIGANTIC CITY.

THERE'S THIS LITTLE LANE GOING UP A HILL AND THAT'S WHERE MY CHILDHOOD HOME WAS AND EVERY TIME I'VE BEEN BACK TO INDIA ALL MY LIFE I'VE BEEN --IT'S BEEN NECESSARY FOR ME TO GO BACK AND STAND THERE AGAIN AND BE DRAWN BACK INTO MY CHILDHOOD AND MY TEENAGE YEARS AND SO ON.

IT'S A KIND OF MAGIC SPACE FOR ME AND THE HERO OF MIDNIGHT'S CHILDREN GROWS UP IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD, TOO, AND ACTUALLY ONE OF THE CHARACTERS WHEN YOU MENTIONED, HER BACKSTORY IS IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD.

SO I THOUGHT ONE MORE --MAYBE THERE'S ONE MORE STORY TO TELL UP THAT HILL.

LET ME TAKE ONE LAST WALK UP THERE.

>> AND THE MUSICIAN WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS A PRODIGY, SORT OF A CHILD PRODIGY, AND HER MOTHER KIND OF STRUGGLES OVER WHEN COMES THIS TALENT?

HOW DOES THAT COME OUT?

TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND HOW YOU THINK ABOUT YOURSELF AS HOW DOES THIS TALENT COME OUT.

>> IN MY FAMILY WE DO HAVE SUCH A PRODIGY.

I HAVE A NIECE WHO IS A BRILLIANT CONCERT PIANIST AND SHE STARTED OUT WHEN SHE WAS LIKE 4 OR 5 YEARS OLD BECOMING --REVEALING HERSELF TO BE VERY GIFTED AND TO SAY THE LEAST, MY FAMILY IS NOT A MUSICAL FAMILY.

I MEAN YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR ME SING.

SO IN A KIND OF NONMUSICAL FAMILY FOR THIS GREAT GIFT TO SUDDENLY ARRIVE FELT LIKE A MIRACLE.

SO I WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT IDEA, THAT HOW DOES IT HAPPEN?

IT MAKES YOU UNDERSTAND WHEN PEOPLE SAY SOMETHING IS A GIFT, THAT'S ACTUALLY LITERALLY WHAT IT IS.

IT'S LIKE SOMETHING YOU'RE JUST GIVEN.

YOU DIDN'T EARN IT.

IT JUST SHOWS UP.

SO I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT A CHARACTER LIKE THAT WHO IS SIMPLY GIVEN A MIRACULOUS GIFT AND HOW DOES SHE USE IT?

>> CHANLE, THE MUSICAL PRODIGY, IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME BECAUSE HER FATHER IN YOUR STORY BECOMES A SPIRITUAL FOLLOWER OF A PARTICULAR GURU.

>> YES, YES.

YOU WROTE WHICH STRUCK US, WHICH IS, "WHAT HE FAILED TO UNDERSTAND WAS THAT MITMU WAS A REAL MAN," THIS GURU, "WAS A REAL MAN WHO HAD TURNED HIMSELF INTO AN IMAGINARY ONE, SO THAT HE WAS A FICTION, TOO."

THAT SEEMS TO CONNECT TO A LOT OF WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR WRITING.

EXPAND ON THAT FOR ME.

>> WELL, INDIA IS FULL OF GURUS.

SOME OF THEM ARE KIND OF SUPERGURUS WHO HAVE ENORMOUS FOLLOWINGS AND SOMETIMES AMASS GREAT WEALTH AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN VERY SUSPICIOUS OF PROFESSIONAL HOLY MEN AND SO I HAVE A SORT OF SATIRICAL URGE TOWARDS THEM AND THEY DO.

THEY MAKE THEMSELVES UP.

THEY ANNOUNCE THAT THEY ARE IN SOME WAY TOUCHED BY THE GODS AND HAVE MIRACULOUS QUALITIES AND CAN HEAL YOU AND CAN DO ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

THAT'S A FICTION THAT THEY CREATE THAT THEY THEN LIVE IT AND THEY PERSUADE OTHER PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IT, TOO.

I THINK THE PHENOMENON OF THE CULT IS VERY MUCH ALIVE IN OUR TIME, YOU KNOW.

THERE HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL OF VERY STRANGE CULT LEADERS.

YOU THINK ABOUT WACO.

YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THESE -- YOU THINK ABOUT JIM JONES, ET CETERA.

SO I WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT MENTALITY, THE MENTALITY NOT JUST OF THE CULT FOLLOWER, BUT OF THE CULT LEADER.

HOW DO YOU BECOME THAT PERSON?

BECAUSE NONE OF US IS BORN AS A GURU.

YOU HAVE TO INVENT YOURSELF.

>> YES.

THE MUSICIAN, THE PRODIGY, YOU SAID THAT TURNED OUT TO BE ONE DIRECTLY IMPACTED AND SHAPED THE WORLD IN WHICH SHE LIVED.

THAT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF YOU.

YOUR ART HAS HELPED SHAPE THE WORLD.

DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT TYPE OF IMPACT?

>> NO.

I MEAN I THINK WHEN IT HAPPENS, IT'S USUALLY AN ACCIDENT.

I MEAN I THINK PROBABLY THE ONE BOOK THAT I THINK THAT MAYBE HAD A REALLY DIRECT IMPACT ON HISTORY IS "UNCLE TOM'S CABIN," BECAUSE THAT WAS A BOOK THAT SO ENERGIZED THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE QUESTION OF ENSLAVEMENT THAT IT HAD A REAL POLITICAL IMPACT.

THERE'S A STORY OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN MEETING HARRIET BEECHER STOWE AND SAYING TO HER YOU ARE THE LITTLE WOMAN WHICH STARTED THIS BIG WAR AND THERE'S A SENSE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW THAT'S TRUE, ALSO AN EXAGGERATION, OF COURSE.

>> YOU HAVE A STORY IN THE BOOK CALLED LATE IN WHICH YOU'RE HANGING AROUND YOUR OLD STOMPING GROUNDS, CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY IN ENGLAND, AND YOU SAY IN THIS THAT IT DOCUMENTS EVENTS THAT CANNOT EASILY BE ACCOMMODATED WITHIN A RIGOROUSLY RATIONAL DESCRIPTION OF THE WORLD.

ALL OF YOUR FICTION TO ME SEEMS TO BE A BLEND OF RATIONAL REALISM ALONG WITH MAGICAL FANTASY AND IT'S WOVEN TOGETHER.

DESCRIBE HOW YOU CONSCIOUSLY ARE DOING THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> WELL, THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT FOR MYSELF IS THAT, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, IN OUR WAKING LIVES WE TRY TO BE RATIONAL PEOPLE AND WE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD THROUGH REASON AND SO ON AND KNOWLEDGE.

WE ALSO ARE DREAMING CREATURES, YOU KNOW, AND WHEN WE DREAM, WE'RE COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL AND OUR MINDS WORK IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

AND I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING TO DO --SOMETHING I WAS TRYING BLEND THOSE THINGS, TO USE THE IRRATIONALITY AND FANTASY OF THE DREAMING MIND WITH THE RATIONALITY AND EVERYDAYNESS OF THE WAKING MIND.

SO TO MIX THE IMAGINATION WITH OBSERVATION, TO MIX, IF YOU LIKE.

>> I IT WAS READING SOMETHING THAT DENNIS HASABIS WHEN HE WAS STUDYING NEUROSCIENCE IS THAT MEMORY IS VERY MUCH LINKED TO IMAGINATION AND THAT SEEMED TO BE A THEME OF YOUR WORK AS WELL.

WHENCE COMETH IMAGINATION?

HOW DO WE HAVE THAT TRAIT?

>> WELL, THANK GOODNESS WE DO BECAUSE HOW DULL LIFE WOULD BE WITHOUT IT, YOU KNOW.

AS FAR AS I KNOW, WE ARE THE ONLY CREATURE ON THE EARTH THAT HAS THAT CAPACITY, THE CAPACITY TO IMAGINE YOURSELF, THE CAPACITY TO IMAGINE THE WORLD BEING DIFFERENT WHICH, OF COURSE, OUT OF WHICH COMES THE POSSIBILITY OF CHANGE BECAUSE BEFORE YOU COULD CHANGE THE WORLD YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE A DIFFERENT WORLD.

AND WE CAN ALL DO THAT TO A DIFFERING DEGREE.

THE INTERESTING THING YOU MENTION ABOUT MEMORY IN IMAGINATION IS MEMORY IS A VERY TRICKY THING.

MANY OF US REMEMBER THE PAST INACCURATELY, BUT THE INACCURATE MEMORY BECOMES IN A WAY MORE POWERFUL THAN THE FACTS BECAUSE WE CLING TO OUR MEMORIES AS THE TRUTH EVEN IF IT CAN BE SHOWN TO US THAT WE ARE MISREMEMBERING.

SO MEMORY IS A KIND OF FICTION AS WELL.

>> A LOT OF YOUR STORIES INVOLVE FANTASIES AND MIRACLES AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND YOU SAY YOU'RE INTERESTED IN MIRACLES YOU SAY NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE MIRACLES, BUT BECAUSE THEY ENCAPSULATE TRUTH SOMEHOW.

HOW DOES FANTASY AND MIRACLE ENCAPSULATE TRUTH?

>> I THINK LITERATURE --THE PURPOSE OF LITERATURE IS ALWAYS TO AIM TOWARDS THE TRUTH AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT?

WELL, WHAT I MEAN IS THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE LIKE.

THAT'S WHAT THE ART OF LITERATURE IS ABOUT.

WHY ARE WE THIS WAY?

WHY DO WE THINK AS WE THINK?

WHY DO WE ACT AS WE ACT?

WHY DO WE TREAT OUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS THE WAY WE TREAT THEM?

WHAT DO WE CARE ABOUT?

WHAT DO WE LOVE?

WHAT FRIGHTENS US?

WHO ARE WE?

YOU CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION IN A VERY WIDE VARIETY OF METHODS.

I MEAN REALISM IS ONLY ONE WAY OF ANSWERING THE QUESTION.

FABLE, FANTASY, FAIRYTALE, THAT'S BEEN AS POWERFUL OF WAY IN WHICH HUMAN BEINGS HAVE TOLD THEMSELVES THE STORY OF THEMSELVES.

>> THE LAST LINE IN THE LAST STORY IN THIS COLLECTION IS WORDS FAIL US AND THAT SORT OF CONFLICTS WITH SOMETHING YOU SAID I THINK IN VICTORY CITY.

WORDS ARE THE ONLY VICTORS.

TELL ME ABOUT JUGGLING THOSE TWO CONCEPTS.

>> WELL, I'M MORE ON THE SIDE OF THE VICTORY CITY LINE MYSELF, THAT WORDS OUTLAST THE AUTHORS AND THEY OUTLAST THE TIME IN WHICH THEY'RE MADE AND IN THE END THEY DESCRIBE MOST OF THE FUTURE, YOU KNOW.

BUT WHAT THAT STORY AND THE OLD MAN IN THE PIAZZA IS ABOUT IS A MOMENT WITH JUST KIND OF A FANTASY MOMENT VARIATION, IF YOU LIKE, OF WHAT SOMETHING I THINK THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, WHICH IS A KIND OF FRACTURING IN WHICH IT'S MUCH HARDER FOR US TO TALK TO EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW, THAT OUR LANGUAGE SEEMS TO BE NOT SUFFICIENT TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER.

THERE'S GREAT DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT SIMPLY ABOUT THE FACTS ABOUT WHAT IS THE CASE AND WHAT THE WORLD IS AND WHAT'S TRUE AND WHAT'S NOT TRUE AND THOSE ARGUMENTS ARE GETTING HEATED AMERICA, BUT INCLUDING AMERICA.

AND IF YOU LIVE IN THAT WORLD WHERE LANGUAGE IS INADEQUATE TO COMMUNICATE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION.

SO THAT LAST LINE OUR WORDS FAIL US I GUESS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A WARNING, YOU KNOW.

LOOK OUT.

>> AND A WARNING OF WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG?

>> WELL, WE'RE NOT COMMUNICATING WELL.

>> IS THAT BECAUSE WE KIND OF SELF-CENSOR OR WHAT IS IT?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS AND WE DON'T WANT TO GET INTO SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT THE IDEA OF THESE BUBBLES THAT PEOPLE LIVE IN, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU ONLY LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO THINK THE SAME WAY AS YOU AND YOU THINK EVERYBODY WHO THINKS ANOTHER WAY IS TELLING A LIE.

THESE LITTLE BUBBLES THAT HAVE NOW BEEN CREATED, ECHO CHAMBERS THAT WE LIVE IN, MAKE IT HARDER FOR TO US LIVE OUTSIDE THE ECHO >> YOU'RE A HISTORIAN BY TRADE.

YOU HAVE MANY SPECIALTIES WITHIN HISTORY AND INDIA BEING ONE OF THEM DURING THE 1900s, BUT YOU'RE ALSO AN AMERICAN HISTORIAN.

WE'RE ABOUT TO HIT OUR 250th BIRTHDAY AS A COUNTRY.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW AMERICAN HISTORY HAS INFORMED YOUR WORK AND HOW YOU THINK MAYBE IT CAN HELP US BRING US BACK TOGETHER A LITTLE BIT FOR OUR 250th?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE REASONS WHY PEOPLE LIKE ME CAME TO LIVE IN AMERICA WAS BECAUSE OF OUR ADMIRATION OF THE SYSTEM AND I THINK SOMETHING LIKE THE FIRST AMENDMENT WAS AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN MY DECIDING THAT THIS IS A PLACE I WANT TO LIVE IN, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THERE'S NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHICH SAYS THAT ITS PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHTS TO THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

HAPPINESS DOESN'T CROP UP IN LOT OF POLITICAL ARGUMENTS.

IF AMERICANS ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS, THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING.

SO THERE'S MANY THINGS ABOUT THE ORIGIN STORY, IF YOU LIKE, OF THE UNITED STATES THAT I ADMIRE VERY MUCH.

YOU KNOW, ALL COUNTRIES ARE MANY COUNTRIES.

ALL COUNTRIES ARE PLURALISTIC AND ARGUMENTATIVE AND FULL OF DIFFERENCES.

SO YOU CHOOSE THE COUNTRY.

YOU CHOOSE THE AMERICA YOU WANT TO BELONG TO, YOU KNOW.

THAT'S THE AMERICA THAT I CHOSE.

>> SALMAN RUSHDIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AS BRAZIL PREPARES TO HOST THE U.N.

CLIMATE SUMMIT AND A LANDMARK REPORTS OF THE CORAL REEFS, ONE REPORTER GOES ABOVE AND BEYOND TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING TO OUR NATURAL WORLD.

RAYMOND JONG IS A CLIMATE REPORTER FOR "THE NEW YORK CHALLENGED HIM.

HE SOUGHT TO COVER RESEARCHERS HUNTING FOR INVISIBLE CREATURES EATING INVISIBLE FOOD ON THE OCEAN FLOOR AND REALIZED IN ORDER TO DO THE STORY JUSTICE, HE HAD TO LEARN HOW TO SCUBA DIVE.

TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE FOUND AND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO REPORT UNDERWATER, RAYMOND JOINS ME NOW FROM LONDON.

RAYMOND, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU ON SOLID GROUND.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU'VE BEEN COVERING CLIMATE FROM THE SURFACE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS AS A CLIMATE REPORTER.

WHAT FINALLY LED YOU AND INSPIRED YOU TO NOT ONLY STUDY IT BENEATH THE OCEAN, BUT ALSO TO SCUBA DIVE TO DO SOME OF YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND REPORTING?

>> YEAH.

IT'S A FUNNY THING.

SO MANY OF US LIVE NEAR THE OCEAN.

SO MANY OF US LIVE NEAR COASTS, LOTS OF CITIES ON COASTS AND YET IT'S A REALLY EASY THING NOT TO THINK ABOUT.

DESPITE BEING SO HUGE, IT'S ALMOST HUGE BEYOND HUMAN COMPREHENSION AND SO WE CAN SORT OF LOOK OUT ON IT AND OF THERE ETERNALLY UNENDING.

OF COURSE, THAT'S NOT TRUE.

IF WE TALK ABOUT WHAT HUMANS ARE DOING TO THE PLANET, THE OCEANS COVER SO MUCH OF THE SURFACE THAT IT'S A HUGE PART OF --IT'S FEELING THE EFFECTS.

YOU KNOW, 90% OF THE EXTRA HEAT THAT HUMANS ARE TRAPPING NEAR EARTH'S SURFACE ENDS UP IN THE OCEAN.

THE OCEAN IS STORING UP SO MUCH OF THE HEAT THAT WE'RE KEEPING NEAR THE PLANET.

THAT'S OBVIOUSLY HAVING HUGE CHANGES DOWN BELOW THAT WE JUST DON'T SEE AND I THINK PART OF WHAT I FELT LIKE I JUST HAVE TO DO IN THIS JOB IS TO MAKE PEOPLE SEE THE NATURAL WORLD, SEE WHAT'S UNDER THEIR NOSE, SEE WHAT'S ALL AROUND THEM.

I HAD A COUPLE OPPORTUNITIES TO WRITE ABOUT SCIENTISTS WORKING UNDERWATER, SCIENTISTS WHO CAN DIVE AND I KEPT THINKING WOW, THAT WOULD BE REALLY COOL TO GO WITH THEM.

IT FINALLY CAME TO A HEAD WITH THIS STORY AND I SAID I SHOULD DO IT.

I WENT AND GOT CERTIFIED.

>> AND YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT A THRILL SEEKER.

SO WAS IT HARD TO LEARN HOW TO SCUBA DIVE?

WHAT WAS THE MOST CHALLENGING ASPECTS OF IT?

>> I'D GONE SNORKELING, THINK I'M A PRETTY GOOD SWIMMER AND WALKED IN ON MY FIRST DAY OF LESSONS FULL OF CONFIDENCE AND BASICALLY ONE INCH BELOW THE SURFACE WHEN YOU ARE IN THE POOL LEARNING TO BREATHE, I HAD A LITTLE FREAKOUT.

I THINK THERE'S A PSYCHOLOGICAL BARRIER YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME IF YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING USED TO BREATHING AIR TO SUDDENLY HAVE TO DO IT INTO A MACHINE THAT'S SORT OF --YOU KNOW, IT'S A WELL DESIGNED MACHINE.

THE TECHNOLOGY'S GREAT, BUT YOU REALLY HAVE TO FACE THE SORT OF LITTLE VOICE IN YOUR BRAIN TELLING YOU THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

THIS IS NOT NATURAL.

I THINK THAT'S A BIG PART OF WHAT SCUBA TEACHES YOU.

WE ARE LAND CREATURES NOT MEANT TO LIVE IN THE OCEANS.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN HUMILITY TOWARD THE POWER OF THE WATER.

>> YOU HAVE TO ALLOW THE MACHINES ULTIMATELY DO WHAT THEY'RE DESIGNED TO DO.

WHAT SURPRISED YOU THE MOST WHEN YOU DROPPED 40 TO 50 FEET ABOUT THE OCEAN OR ABOUT HOW YOU VIEWED THE OCEAN IN YOUR REPORTING?

>> I THINK IT'S REALLY A DIFFERENT PLANET ALMOST.

YOU COME TO APPRECIATE --YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS FOR CREATURES TO LIVE ON THE OCEAN FLOOR, BUT UNTIL YOU'RE THERE, UNTIL YOU'RE SEEING IT UP CLOSE, I MEAN I THINK EVEN, FRANKLY, PICTURES DON'T DO IT JUSTICE.

IT'S JUST ITS OWN WORLD DOWN THERE AND IT REALLY FEELS LIKE IF MORE PEOPLE COULD SEE IT UP CLOSE, IF MORE PEOPLE COULD SORT OF APPRECIATE --YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT EVEN THINGS YOU CAN SEE.

IT'S OCEAN CURRENTS WHICH WE CAN'T SEE.

IT'S THE SORT OF CHANGES IN TEMPERATURE HAPPENING INVISIBLY EVEN WHEN YOU'RE DOWN THERE.

YOU SORT OF DO APPRECIATE THE SCALE AND IMMENSENESS OF ACTIVITY THAT'S HAPPENING THERE.

>> OFF THE COAST OF TUSCANY YOU FOLLOWED SCIENTISTS THAT WERE LOOKING AT MUD VOLCANOS.

WHAT DID YOU SEE DOWN THERE AND WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU ABOUT OUR PLANET AND SPECIFICALLY THE HEALTH OF OUR OCEANS?

>> I WAS THINKING HOW DO YOU COLLECT A MICROBE UNDERWATER AND PART OF IT WAS TO UNDERSTAND SCIENCE UNDER THE OCEAN, HOW IT WORKS.

THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS YOU HAVE A PLASTIC BAG YOU SORT OF TWIRL AROUND IN THE WATER.

YOU IMAGINE THAT'S WHERE MICROBES ARE AND YOU HAVE TO GO BACK IN THE LAB.

YOU HAVE THIS PLASTIC BAG FULL OF WATER, TUBES FULL OF WATER.

TO A LARGE DEGREE I SEE MY JOB JUST HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND HOW WE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE OCEAN.

IT IS SO FAST.

IT IS SORT OF WE ARE SO SMALL.

WE CAN ONLY DO THINGS, YOU KNOW, REALLY IN FRONT OF OUR EYES FOR THE MOST PART.

WE CAN PUT INSTRUMENTS DOWN THERE, BUT EVEN THAT REQUIRES US TO BE THERE.

SO I THINK IT'S JUST APPRECIATION FOR THE VAST THING, EVEN WITH SATELLITES, MORE THAN WE USED TO, BUT A LOT OF IT'S STILL JUST ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS PUTTING THEMSELVES AT RISK DIVING, GETTING THIS TRAINING, HAVING THE SKILLS TO GO THERE.

>> YOU THINK IT'S CRUCIAL IN COVERING THE INDUSTRY THAT YOU DO.

>> I HOPE SO AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I HAVE COLLEAGUES WHO COVER SO MANY OTHER THINGS IN THE WORLD AND I THINK THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING THERE AND GETTING THERE IS SO IMPORTANT.

I THINK WE TAKE FOR GRANTED HOW CONNECTED AND HOW READILY INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE TO US AND TO A LARGE DEGREE IN SCIENCE JOURNALISM, TOO, I THINK BEING THERE SORT OF NEXT TO SCIENTISTS AS THEY WORK IS PART OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT THEY DO AND HOW WE KNOW WHAT WE KNOW.

>> AS NOTED IN THE INTRODUCTION, THE EARTH HAS REACHED WHAT IS BEING DESCRIBED AS ITS FIRST CATASTROPHIC TIPPING POINT ACCORDING TO A REPORT BY 160 SCIENTISTS FROM 23 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD HEATING IS REDUCED BY 1.2 DEGREES CELSIUS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

WARM WATER CORAL REEFS WILL NOT REMAIN AT ANY MEANINGFUL SCALE ANYMORE.

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT AND FOR THOSE WHO ARE WATCHING, IS THERE ANY REASON FOR HOPE OR OPTIMISM THAT THAT CAN STILL BE REVERSED?

>> I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING SCIENTISTS HAVE BEEN WARNING ABOUT FOR A FEW YEARS ALREADY.

WE'VE ALREADY SEEN SEVERAL REALLY EXTREME MARINE HEATWAVES WHERE YOU HAVE TEMPERATURES IN THE OCEAN, YOU KNOW, IN THE CARIBBEAN AND THE GULF OF MEXICO, RECENTLY THEY WERE HOT AS A HOT CUB, ALMOST 100 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT.

YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT CREATURES LIKE CORALS WHO HAVE ADAPTED TO VERY SPECIFIC CONDITIONS IN THE OCEANS, THEY JUST CAN'T KEEP UP AND THESE ARE ECOSYSTEMS THAT PLAY A HUGE ROLE NOT ONLY FOR MARINE LIFE, BUT FOR HUMAN LIFE, TOO.

THE CORAL REEFS PROVIDE PROTECTION AGAINST STORMS.

THEY KEEP LAND FROM ERODING IN THEY'RE AS MUCH A PART OF OUR WORLD AS THEY ARE THE UNDERWATER WORLD.

UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK PEOPLE ARE TRYING DIFFERENT WAYS TO SAVE CORALS.

PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PLANT CORALS.

PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO MOVE CORALS, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHICH SPECIES MIGHT SURVIVE IN WARMER WATERS, BUT IT'S A GLOBAL PROBLEM.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT.

YOU'RE REPORTING ON IT AND THE FACT THAT YOU'VE TAKEN TO GOING UNDERWATER, LEARNING HOW TO SCUBA DIVE TO BRING UP THESE STORIES JUST IS A REMINDER WHAT AN IMPACTFUL REPORTER YOU ARE.

WE APPRECIATE YOU DOING THAT, RAYMOND JONG.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

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