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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY.
"HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS IN JAMAICA, AND SO WE HAVE TO HAVE EVERYONE PREPARED AND LISTEN TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE CATASTROPHIC.
>> HURRICANE MELISSA HITS JAMAICA.
I ASK METEOROLOGIST JOHN MORALES WHY IT'S THE WORST STORM TO HIT THE ISLAND EVER AND WHAT THE IMPACT COULD BE.
>>> THEN -- >> THE LEVEL OF SUFFERING THAT WE ARE WITNESSING IN SUDAN IS UNBEARABLE.
>> FAMINE AND FIGHTING GRIPS SUDAN.
AND AS REBEL FORCES CAPTURE THE SUDANESE CITY OF EL FASHER, FEARS GROW FOR THE CIVILIANS IN THEIR WAKE.
I SPEAK TO REGIONAL AND HUMANITARIAN EXPERTS ASKING WHAT CAN BE DONE TO END THIS DEADLY CIVIL WAR.
>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE'RE GOING TO START SEEING, YOU KNOW, MORE EMERGENCY ROOM VISITS, MORE PEOPLE SUFFERING CONDITIONS.
>> DAY 28 OF THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.
DAVID OVALLE FROM "THE WASHINGTON POST" TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN WHAT'S REALLY CAUSING THIS DEADLOCK AND THE POTENTIAL IMPACTS.
>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
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THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.
THE STRONGEST STOFRM OF THE YEAR, HURRICANE MELISSA, HAS HIT JAMAICA.
CALLED THE STORM OF THE CENTURY BY THE U. N. IT'S A CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE WITH WINDS OF 185 MILES PER HOUR.
THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER IS WARNING OFLANDSLIDES, CATASTROPHIC FLASH FLOODS, AND GUSTS THAT MAY CAUSE TOTAL STRUCTURAL FAILURE.
SEVERAL PEOPLE IN THE REGION HAVE ALSO BEEN KILLED.
EARLIER TODAY I SPOKE TO JAMAICA'S PRIME MINISTER ABOUT WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING TO PREPARE THEIR CITIZENS.
>> WE HAVE PUT IN PLACE A COMPULSERY MANDATORY EVACUATION ORDER, BUT IN A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY LIKE JAMAICA WE TEND TO WANT TO RESPECT THE RIGHTS OF CITIZENS, TO PROTECT THEIR PROPERTY, BUT TO GIVE THEM THE INFORMATION SO THAT THEY CAN PROTECT THEIR LIVES.
WE HAVE MOBILIZED OVER 881 SHELTERS.
MOST OF THEM ARE ACTIVATED NOW.
WE'VE PROVIDED BUSES TO MOVE PERSONS.
THE TAKE UP WAS INITIALLY SLOW, PICKED UP AFTERWARDS.
SO FOR THOSE RESIDENTS WHO HAVE DECIDED TO STAY, I'M ENCOURAGING THEM TO BATTEN DOWN, TAKE ALL THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS TO KEEP THEMSELVES SAFE.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT PROPERTY AT THIS TIME BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING YOU'LL BE ABLE TO DO IN A CATEGORY 5 STORM TO PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY.
KEEP YOUR LIVES SAFE.
>> LET'S NOW GO TO KINGSTON, JAMAICA, WHERE PEOPLE ARE WITNESSING THE STRENGTH OF THIS HURRICANE FIRST-HAND.
MARVA ALLEN-SIMMS WORKS FOR A PARTNER OF THE HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATION, C.A.R.E., WHICH IS PREPARING A RESPONSE TO THIS ALREADY DEADLY WEATHER EVENT.
MARVA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.
WE CAN REPORT NOW THAT MELISSA HAS OFFICIALLY MADE LANDFALL.
YOU ARE THERE IN KINGSTON.
JUST TELL US FIRST ARE YOU SAFE?
WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AND HEARING AROUND YOU?
>> HI.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
SO I'M IN KINGSTON, AND IT'S FAIRLY QUIET IN COMPARISON TO PERHAPS MANCHESTER, ST.
ELIZABETH, ST.
ANNE.
WE ARE HAVING WIND, WHICH IS PRETTY MILD AND ALSO SOME RAINFALL, NOT MUCH --WELL, WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW WE AREN'T HAVING ANY RAIN AT ALL, BUT JUST LIGHT RAIN.
IN THE NIGHT JUST LAST NIGHT INTO THIS MORNING, WE HAD MUCH MORE WIND, MUCH MORE RAIN.
BUT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE ANTICIPATING THE HIT AROUND ABOUT NOW, WITHIN ANOTHER HOUR, AND IT'S GOING TO GET WORSE.
>> YEAH, ESPECIALLY THE SOUTHWEST PART OF THE COUNTRY.
AS WE SPEAK IT IS REALLY ON THE RECEIVING END OF THESE HEAVY WINDS, COASTLINES.
WE'VE BEEN TOLD BY SOME ON THE GROUND THERE HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY ERODED, AND THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THOSE CIVILIANS WHO HAVE NOT HEEDED WARNINGS.
EARLY ESTIMATES SAID THAT ABOUT 50,000 RESIDENTS WERE IN HARM'S WAY IN TERMS OF THE PATH OF THE STORM RIGHT NOW, AND THERE HAD BEEN ORDERS ISSUED FOR THEM TO LEAVE TO HIGHER LAND FOR SAFETY.
AS OF YESTERDAY, I BELIEVE, ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT, ONLY 1,700 PEOPLE HAD HEEDED THOSE WARNINGS.
TALK ABOUT SOME OF YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT THOSE THAT DIDN'T LEAVE.
>> OKAY.
SO IT WAS --WHAT WAS ISSUED WAS A MANDATORY EVACUATION, AS THE PRIME MINISTER SAID.
BUT, OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO RESPECT PEOPLE'S RIGHTS NOT TO MOVE.
THERE ARE PERSONS WHO WOULD WANT TO STAY TO PROTECT THEIR PROPERTY, ALSO TO PROTECT THEIR LIVESTOCK.
WE ARE INTO -- WE'RE A PART OF THE --OUR ORGANIZATION IN JAMAICA AND THE ONE THAT I'VE REPRESENTED WE HAVE A NUMBER OF SMALL PRODUCERS, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WHO HAVE, LIKE, A HUNDRED HEADS OF CHICKENS AND THEY HAVE SOME GOATS AND, YOU KNOW, OTHER TYPES OF LIFESTYLE.
SO THERE ARE PERSONS WHO ARE NOT PREPARED TO MOVE, AND THERE ARE PERSONS WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH STORMS BEFORE AND THEY HAVE HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF --THEY'RE NOT VERY HAPPY WHEN THEY DO LEAVE THEIR PROPERTY.
YOU KNOW, THEY DO WORRY WILL I COME BACK AND SEE ANYTHING.
SO THERE ARE PERSONS WHO ARE PREPARED TO JUST STAY AND PROTECT THEIR PROPERTY.
THIS, OF COURSE, IS CONCERNING BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE FIRST THING IS TO SAVE LIFE, TO PROTECT YOUR LIFE BECAUSE YOU CAN ALWAYS REPLACE WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU HAVE ACQUIRED.
>> OF COURSE.
>> SO WE ARE CONCERNED THAT THERE ARE PERSONS WHO ARE NOW ASKING TO BE EVACUATED, WHICH OF COURSE IS NOT GOING TO BE POSSIBLE BECAUSE THE BUSES HAVE BEEN PULLED.
THE BUSES THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD PUT IN PLACE TO EVACUATE PERSONS TO THESE CENTERS.
SO THERE ARE PERSONS WHO MAY HAVE TO FIND THEIR WAYS TO THE CENTERS THEMSELVES OR TO HIGHER GROUND OR TO BE WITH FAMILY WHO CAN OFFER SOME MORE PROTECTION THAN THEY HAVE NOW.
>> RIGHT.
AND YOU DON'T WANT TO PUT -- >> IT IS CONCERNING, YOU KNOW.
>> AND YOU DON'T WANT TO PUT THE LIVES OF THE DISASTER RELIEF FIRST RESPONDERS AT RISK EITHER AT THIS POINT.
BECAUSE AS YOU NOTED MANDATORY EVACUATION ORDERS HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO PHYSICALLY FORCE PEOPLE TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES AND PROPERTY.
SOME OF THEM DO IT AS YOU NOTED OF THEIR OWN VOLITION BY WANTING TO PROTECT THEIR PROPERTY AND THEIR LAND.
BUT THERE, OF COURSE, ARE CONCERNS ABOUT THOSE WHETHER THEY'RE ELDERLY, CHILDREN, YOUNG JUST NOT ABLE TO PHYSICALLY LEAVE IN ENOUGH TIME.
WHAT IS BEING DONE TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES FOR THAT MOST VULNERABLE PART OF THE POPULATION?
>> OKAY.
SO PERSONS HAVE BEEN ASKED JUST TO LOOK OUT FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS.
SO WE KNOW THAT WE'RE A CARING PEOPLE.
JAMAICANS ARE CARING, SO WE ARE LOOKING OUT FOR OUR NEIGHBORS.
I SPOKE WITH PERSONS THIS MORNING, AND THEY HAVE LENT A HELPING HAND.
THERE ARE PERSONS WHO HAVE HAD PERSONS COMING INTO THEIR HOMES.
LAST NIGHT THERE WAS --I WAS WATCHING SOMETHING WHERE A PASTOR SAID I THINK HE'S GOING TO HAVE, LIKE, I FORGET HOW MANY PERSONS ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO COME OVER TO STAY JUST TO RIDE OUT THIS HURRICANE BECAUSE WHERE THEY ARE IT'S PRETTY VULNERABLE.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE REALLY DON'T WANT ANY LOSS OF LIFE OUT OF THIS.
SO WE ARE STILL ASKING PERSONS TO SEEK HIGHER GROUND, TO BE --YOU KNOW, JUST TO LOOK OUT FOR THEMSELVES, FOR THEIR NEIGHBORS, FOR THE CHILDREN, FOR THOSE OLD PERSONS WHO CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES.
BUT THERE ARE PERSONS WHO ARE DOING THIS, AND THE AUTHORITIES HAVE SAID THAT IN THE EVENT THAT THEY CAN HELP PEOPLE STILL, WE WOULD NOT -- NOT DO THIS.
WE WOULD STILL SEND TRANSPORTATION, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE TO GET PERSONS TO THE SHELTERS THAT ARE THERE FOR THEM.
>> SAFETY, OF COURSE, IS THE UTMOST PRIORITY HERE.
I THINK OFFICIALLY THERE HAVE BEEN THREE CONFIRMED DEATHS THAT ARE RELATED TO THIS STORM.
TRAGICALLY, WE CAN LIKELY EXPECT THAT NUMBER TO RISE GIVEN THE MAGNITUDE OF THE STORM, WHICH AS WE JUST REPORTED HAS OFFICIALLY MADE LANDFALL.
MARVA ALLEN-SIMMS IN KINGSTON, JAMAICA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
PLEASE STAY SAFE.
>> THANK YOU.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> FOR MORE ON THIS MEGASTORM I'M JOINED BY VETERAN METEOROLOGIST AND ATMOSPHERIC SCIENTIST JOHN MORALES.
HE'S BEEN COVERING EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS FOR DECADES, BUT IN RECENT YEARS HE'S WITNESSED THE GROWING INTENSITY OF HURRICANES, AND IT IS NATURAL IT HAS BEEN DEEPLY AFFECTING HIM AND ALL OF US THROUGHOUT THE YEARS.
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO JUST KEEP A PROFESSIONAL HAT ON WHEN YOU'RE WATCHING THE MAGNITUDE OF THESE STORMS AND THE LETHALITY THAT THEY UNLEASH IN THEIR WAKE.
THANK YOU, JOHN, FOR JOINING US.
AS WE'VE NOTED YOU'VE COVERED COUNTLESS HURRICANES AND STORM.
WHAT MAKES MELISSA DIFFERENT?
WHAT IS MOST CONCERNING ABOUT RIGHT NOW AS THIS UNPRECEDENTED CATEGORY 5 HITTING JAMAICA, THE FIRST TIME A CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE HAS STRUCK THE ISLAND OF JAMAICA.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
WE KNOW JUST BASED ON THE MAGNITUDE OF THE HURRICANE THIS IS GOING TO BE THE WORST DISASTER IN THE HISTORY OF JAMAICA.
AND WHAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT IS THE LONG-TERM, THE LASTING AFFECTS OF THE HURRICANE UPON THEIR REGION BECAUSE HURRICANES DON'T JUST TAKE LIVES, THEY RUIN LIVES.
AND THEY RUIN LIVES IN MANY, MANY WAYS.
IN THE SHORT- TERM, OF COURSE, COMMUNITIES THAT ARE GOING TO BE CUT OFF FROM CIVILIZATION JUST BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, BRIDGES WERE WASHED OUT OR ROADS WERE WASHED AWAY.
YOU KNOW, WITH NO POWER AND NO ABILITY TO OTHERWISE JUST FEND FOR THEMSELVES BECAUSE NO ONE'S GOING TO COME AND AID THEM IN THE SHORT-TERM.
AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY TRUE FOR THE WESTERN HALF OF JAMAICA.
AND I WANT TO MAKE THIS POINT BECAUSE YOU JUST HAD AN INTERVIEW IN KINGSTON, AND KINGSTON IS PRETTY FAR REMOVED FROM THE CORE OF THIS HURRICANE.
SO THE PLACES MOST BEING IMPACTED ARE MANCHESTER PARISH AS WELL AS SAINT ELIZABETH PARISH AND FURTHER WEST INTO WEST MORELAND PARISH.
THOSE THREE LOCATIONS INCLUDING WHERE IT MADE LANDFALL IN NEW HOPE, THAT WAS AT 1:00 EASTERN TIME IN THE U.S., 1 700 GREENWICH TIME IN THE AFTERNOON.
THAT WAS SUSTAINED WINDS OF 200 KILOMETERS PER HOUR AND WIND GUSTS 50% HIGHER THAN THAT BECAUSE OF THE EFFECTS OF THE TOPOGRAPHY ON THE REGION WHERE YOU CAN GET A 1.
5 GUST FACTOR.
SO THAT TAKES GUSTS, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, CLOSE TO 450 MILES --SORRY, 450 KILOMETERS PER HOUR IN SOME OF THE HILLTOPS AND MOUNTAINTOPS.
THAT'S WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT.
>> I SPOKE WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF JAMAICA EARLIER TODAY, AND HE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY'VE GONE TO EXTREME LENGTHS AND MEASURES TO PUT IN PLACE ANY SORT OF RESOURCES THAT THEY CAN PROVIDE AND PREPARE THEIR CITIZENS FOR THEIR THIS STORM.
THIS ISN'T OBVIOUSLY THE FIRST STORM OR HURRICANE THAT THE COUNTRY HAS FACED, BUT THEY'VE NEVER SEEN ONE OF THIS SIZE AND SCALE.
AND HE ALSO SAID THAT NO CARIBBEAN ISLAND COULD WITHSTAND A STORM OF THIS MAGNITUDE.
SO FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT HEEDED THE WARNINGS AND EVACUATED, WHAT IS THEIR FATE LIKELY IN THE NEXT FEW HOURS AHEAD?
>> WELL, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY THEY DID.
YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE --A LOT OF THE CONSTRUCTION THERE ESPECIALLY MIDDLE AND UPPER CLASS IS GOING TO BE IN THE FORM OF CINDER BLOCK CONSTRUCTION WITH POURED CONCRETE ON REBAR ROOFS, AND THAT IS STURDY, AND THAT CAN WITHSTAND THAT TYPE OF WIND.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT LOWER MIDDLE CLASS AND THE FRONT LINE COMMUNITIES, THE POOR COMMUNITIES DON'T HAVE THAT TYPE OF CONSTRUCTION.
HOPEFULLY THEY DID EVACUATE NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE WEAKNESS OF THE STRUCTURE, BUT ALSO IF THEY'RE LOCATED ANYWHERE NEAR A FLOOD ZONE, ANYWHERE NEAR WHERE SOME OF THESE RIVERS AND CREEKS CAN BECOME ABSOLUTE TORRENTS OF WATER, THAT, TOO, NEEDED TO BE DONE AS WELL AS AT THE COAST, WHERE THE STORM SURGE HEIGHT OR THE DEPTH OF THE INUNDATION COULD BE 4 METERS ABOVE WHERE PEOPLE STAND.
SO MANY OF THE ISSUES BEING LOOKED AT RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE FACING BECAUSE IT'S HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.
THESE CONDITIONS ARE ONGOING RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK WITH THE HURRICANE MAKING LANDFALL.
ONE MORE THING.
I SPOKE ABOUT THE SHORT-TERM EFFECTS.
THERE ARE PEER REVIEWED STUDIES THAT INDICATE MORBIDITY AND MORTALITY EXTEND NOT JUST MONTHS BUT YEARS IF NOT A DECADE AND A HALF AFTER A HURRICANE MAKES LANDFALL.
THERE ARE BOUND TO BE PHYSICAL HEALTH AND MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES WELL BEYOND THIS CYCLE.
>> HALF OF JAMAICA IS MOUNTAINOUS.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY THE TERRAIN MAKES THE STORM EVEN MORE DESTRUCTIVE?
>> OF COURSE.
WHAT HAPPENS WITH MOUNTAINOUS TERRAIN IS YOU HAVE THE PREVAILING WINDS AROUND THE CIRCULATION OF THE HURRICANE STRIKING THE WINDWARD SIDE OF ALL THESE HILLS AND MOUNTAINS.
AND AS THAT HAPPENS, THAT AIR IS FORCED TO RISE.
IT IS LIFTED.
AND AS IT IS LIFTED, THE TEMPERATURE OF THOSE -- OF THAT AIR COOLS DOWN TO THE CONDENSATION POINT, AND YOU GET MORE AND MORE WATER VAPOR CONDENSING INTO LIQUID WATER DROPLETS, WHICH SIMPLY ACCENTUATES THE AMOUNT OF RAINFALL YOU CAN RECEIVE IN ALL THESE LOCATIONS.
THAT'S HOW WE CAN GET TO RAINFALL ACCUMULATIONS OF 750 TO 1,000 MILLILITERS --SORRY, WHERE AM I GOING?
NOT MILLILITERS -- MILL METERS OF RAIN.
750 TO 1,000 MILLIMETERS OF RAIN WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO 40 TO 50 INCHES OF ACCUMULATION FOR THOSE REGIONS.
>> WE KNOW CARIBBEAN WATERS ARE ABOUT 2.
5 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT WARMER THAN NORMAL.
HOW DOES THAT IMPACT THE STRENGTH OF THESE STORMS AND THE FACT AS OF LATE WE'RE SEEING A RELATIVELY NEW PHENOMENON, AND THAT IS SUCH SLOW MOVING STORMS THAT ALLOW FOR SUCH A HUGE DROP OF RAIN AND FLOODING.
>> RIGHT.
SO TWO SEPARATE THINGS WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT HERE.
FIRST AND FOREMOST THE MOST OBVIOUS.
THE PLANETARY HEATING, THE GLOBAL WARMING WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES.
THIS IS MAN MADE AS WE ALL KNOW DUE TO INJECTION OF GREENHOUSE GASES INTO THE ATMOSPHERE.
THAT HEATING OF THE PLANETARY SYSTEM HAS BEEN GREATLY ABSORBED BY THE OCEANS.
THE OCEANS HAVE KEPT THE ATMOSPHERE COOLER THAN IT OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE BEEN.
BUT IN THE PROCESS THE OCEANS ARE HEATING UP, AND IT'S NOT JUST THE SURFACE OF THE OCEAN WHERE WE'RE SEEING THOSE HOTTER SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURES, IT'S THE DEPTH OF THE WARM-WATER.
IT'S THE OCEAN HEAT CONTENT WELL BELOW THE SURFACE OF THE OCEANS AND THE SEAS THAT IS ALLOWING FOR THESE HURRICANES TO, YES, AS YOU DESCRIBE, SIT IN ONE PLACE AND NOT UP WELL ENOUGH COLD- WATER TO KNOCK DOWN THEIR STRENGTH.
SO THIS PARTICULAR HURRICANE, MELISSA, MEANDERRED.
RIGHT, IT TOOK A LONG TIME TO GET PAST THE SOUTH CENTRAL CARIBBEAN SEA TO THE WATERS SOUTH OF JAMAICA.
BASICALLY A WEEK, OKAY, IT'S TAKEN TO GET TO THIS POINT.
AND DESPITE THAT IT CONTINUES TO FEED OFF OF INCREDIBLY WARM WATERS.
THAT FIGURE YOU MENTIONED 1.
5 DEGREES CELLULOUS APPROXIMATELY HOTTER THAN NORMAL, THAT FIGURE IS MADE 6 TO 700 MORE TIMES MORE LIKELY BASED ON ATTRIBUTION STUDIES DUE TO MAN MADE CLIMATE CHANGE.
SO WE'VE CHANGED THE PHYSICS AND THE THERMODYNAMICS OF HOW THESE HURRICANES WORK.
THE WIND SPEEDS OF WHAT THEY COULD POSSIBLY BE IS CHANGING AND INCREASING.
I THERE YOU HAVE IT.
WE HAVE A HURRICANE MAKING LANDFALL WITH MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS OF 185 MILES PER HOUR.
THE LAST TO DO THAT WAS HURRICANE DORIAN IN 2019 WHEN IT HIT THE NORTH WEST BAHAMAS.
AND BY PRESSURE --I WANT TO REPEAT ONCE MORE BY BAROMETRIC PRESSURE IT IS THE STRONGEST LANDFALLING HURRICANE EVER RECORDED IN THE ATLANTA BASIN TYING THE GREAT LABOR DAY HURRICANE OF 1935.
>> YOU'RE DEALING WITH A NUMBER OF CHALLENGES HERE TRYING TO COVER AND UNDERSTAND AND EXPLAIN NEW PHENOMENA AND MORE AND MORE POWERFUL STORMS THAN YOU EVER HAVE.
EACH YEAR SEEMS TO BE SETTING A NEW RECORD.
AT THE SAME TIME GIVEN THAT WE RELY AND SO MANY CITIZENS AND VIEWERS RELY A LOT ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THE PHENOMENA OF MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION IS ALSO ANOTHER FACTOR WEIGHING IN ON PEOPLE'S DECISIONS AS TO HOW TO RESPOND TO THESE STORMS AND PREPARE FOR TEM.
HOW DO YOU COMBAT THAT?
>> WELL, I MEAN, I WROTE ABOUT THIS IN "THE BULLETIN OF THE ATOMIC SCIENTIST," WHICH, BY THE WAY, LOOKS AT THE THREATS TO HUMANITY, NOT JUST NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION, WHICH IT WAS FOUNDED FOR DOING THAT, BUT NOW THESE DAYS IT INCLUDES CLIMATE CHANGE AS A THREAT TO HUMANITY.
THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE IS THE ROLE OF THE SCIENTIST IN THE POST-TRUTH WORLD BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW.
THIS IS A POST-TRUTH WORLD, SADLY, WHERE FACTS ARE MIXED WITH ALL THE OTHER STUFF THAT'S OUT THERE BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAS A BULL HORN AND THE EXPERTISE IS NO LONGER LOOKED AT AS THE SOLE SOURCE, AS THE TRUSTWORTHY SOURCE OF INFORMATION.
HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THAT?
LISTEN, WE CAN'T THROW TEXTBOOKS AT PEOPLE'S HEADS.
WE HAVE TO MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY'RE AT, TRY TO RELATE TO THEM AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
IF THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES, OKAY, WELL, THEN LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW THESE CHANGES THAT WE'RE OBSERVING, THE INCREASE IN TEMPERATURES, THE INCREASE IN EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS IS IMPACTING EACH ONE OF THOSE FAMILIES AND HOW IT'S IMPACTING THEM, AND I THINK PEOPLE WILL REACT THEN.
>> YEAH, WELL, IT'S REALLY A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION FOR SO MANY OF THESE FAMILIES NOW AS THIS MASSIVE HURRICANE OFFICIALLY MAKES LANDFALL IN JAMAICA.
OBVIOUSLY, OUR THOUGHTS ARE WITH THE CITIZENS THERE AND IN NEIGHBORING CUBA, WHICH IS EXPECTING THE WRATH SHORTLY AFTER.
JOHN MORALES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR EXPERTISE.
>> THANK YOU.
>> WE TURN NOW TO THE DEVASTATING CIVIL WAR IN SUDAN.
REBEL FORCES KNOWN AS THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES, OR RSF, HAVE CLAIMED THE CITY OF ALFASCER IN DARFUR.
U. N. SECRETARY-GENERAL ANTONIO GUTIERREZ HAS CALLED THE REMAINING STRONG HOLD.
THE UNITED NATIONS HAS ALREADY RAISED THE ALARM OVER ATROCITIES BEING COMMITTED THERE.
SINCE THE WAR BEGAN IN APRIL OF 2023 TENS OF THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN KILLED, AND IT'S CONSIDERED THE WORLD'S WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS WITH WIDESPREAD FAMINE.
FOR MORE ON THIS I'M JOINED BY SUDAN ANALYST SHAYNA LEWIS AND ARJAN HEHENKAMP.
LET ME START WITH YOU.
AS HAS BEEN REPORTED THE GENERAL SAID THE MOVE TO RETREAT FROM EL FASHER WAS INTENDED TO SPARE CIVILIANS THERE AND CITIZENS FROM DESTRUCTION.
AT THIS POINT GIVEN THE CHANGE IN DYNAMIC WHAT ARE WE SEEING AND HEARING ON THE GROUND IN EL FASHER?
>> SO I JUST CAME BACK FROM --WHICH IS ABOUT 7 KILOMETERS SOUTH OF EL FASHER.
I'VE BEEN IN THE AREA CLOSE TO EL FASHER, AND I JUST LEFT ON THE --ON --A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE RSF WAS REPORTEDLY TAKING OVER EL FASHER.
WHAT WE'RE SEEING WHICH IS A PLACE WHERE THERE'S ALREADY 400,000 DISPLACED WHO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME BUT ALSO INCREASED SINCE THE ATTACK BEFORE --WE'RE SEEING ONLY A FEW NUMBERS COMING FROM EL FASHER.
THERE'S UP TO 5,000 PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME.
THEY ARRIVE IN DEPLORABLE STATE.
MANY OF THEM ARE SICK AND WOUNDED FOR A PERIOD OF 6 TO 7 MONTHS.
THERE'S MANY WOMEN, MANY CHILDREN, MANY ELDERLY.
THERE'S ALSO A BIG GAP BETWEEN THE YOUNG MEN AND ABLE MEN THAT ARE NOT BEING SEEN IN THOSE NUMBERS.
THE BIG CONCERN THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS WHERE'S THE REST OF THE POPULATION OF EL FASHER BECAUSE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE --OR WE WERE HOPING AND WE WERE THINKING THAT THEY WOULD COME TO --IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO RECEIVE SAFETY AND ASSISTANCE, BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE BIG NUMBERS THAT WE WERE EXPECTING SO FAR, SO THAT IS VERY DISTURBING AND THAT'S RAISING A BIG QUESTION IN MY MIND.
>> STICKING WITH YOU ARJAN, FOR ANOTHER QUESTION HERE ON THIS POINT ON THE IMPACT ON CIVILIANS THE U.S.
SAYS 250,000 CIVILIANS ARE CURRENTLY TRAPPED AROUND EL FASHER.
WHAT DO THESE PEOPLE NEED THE MOST RIGHT NOW?
>> WHAT THEY NEED MOST RIGHT NOW IS TO GO TO SAFE PLACE.
EL FASHER FROM ALL THAT WE HEAR IS NOT A SAFE PLACE.
WE HAVE SEEN HORRIFIC VIDEOS CIRCULATING ONLINE YESTERDAY THAT PUT OUR COLLEAGUES TO TEARS WHO WERE IN OUR OFFICE.
WE WERE HEARING HORRIFIC STORIES ABOUT DEAD BODIES LYING IN THE ROADS AND PEOPLE ARE WOUNDED ALONG THE ROAD THAT THEY'VE TRAVELED TO COME.
AND SO THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE NEED, THE BIGGEST THING PEOPLE IN EL FASHER NEED IS TO HAVE SAFE PASSAGE TO A SAFE DESTINATION.
>> SHAYNA, DOES THE FALL OF EL FASHER MARK A PERMANENT GEOGRAPHICAL SPLIT BETWEEN THE RSF HELD WEST AND THE SAF HELD EAST?
>> IT'S CERTAINLY A TURNING POINT, BIANNA.
WHERE WE NOW SEE SAF IN CONTROL OF PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE EASTERN PORTION OF THE COUNTRY AND THE RSF HAVE CEMENTED CONTROL OVER THE WESTERN REGION.
HOWEVER, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT PREEMTIVE TO TALK ABOUT ABOUT A SPLIT IN THE REGION BECAUSE THE WESTERLY REGIONS ARE PRETTY MUCH IN PLAY.
EVEN THOUGH RIGHT NOW WE'RE FOCUSED ON EL FASHER BECAUSE OF THE ATROCITIES TAKE PLACE, WHICH I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THE INTERNATIONAL CIVIL SOCIETY COMMUNITY AND SUDANESE THEMSELVES HAVE BEENWORN AING ABOUT THE ATROCITY RISK FOR OVER TWO YEARS FOR THE POPULATION OF EL FASHER.
BUT IT'S EL FASHER AND THE -- REGION.
JUST A COUPLE DAYS AGO ON THE 26th THE EMERGENCY LAWYERS DOCUMENTATION GROUP REPORTED ON A MASSACRE COMMITTED BY THE RSF OF HUNDREDS OF CIVILIANS IN A TOWN KNOWN AS BARA IN THE NORTH.
BUT WE ALSO KNOW SIMILAR SIEGE TACTICS THAT WERE DEPLOYED FOR OVER 16 MONTHS IN EL FASHER ARE ALSO BEING USED IN THE SOUTH IN CITIES.
SO EVEN THOUGH WE ARE TALKING RIGHT NOW ABOUT EL FASHER AND THE NEED FOR SAFE ROUTES FOR CIVILIANS AND ALSO FOR HUMANITARIAN AID TO FLOW INTO THE POPULATION THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FLEE THE CITY, THOSE SAME MEASURES ARE ALSO NEEDED IN THE REGION.
AND IF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY DOES NOT IMMEDIATELY AND URGENTLY INCREASE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE TO THESE AREAS, MANY MORE PEOPLE WILL DIE DUE TO A LACK OF ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE, FOOD, AND WATER.
AND WE ALREADY KNOW AND HAVE KNOWN FOR MANY MONTHS AT THIS POINT THAT FAMINE IS PRESENT ACROSS THE REGION OF DARFUR AND ALSO IN THE SOUTH.
SO IT'S INCUMBENT ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO ACT NOW, TO SAVE FURTHER LIVES IN ADDITION TO THE HUNDREDS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN KILLED IN MASSACRES IN EL FASHER.
>> ARJAN, SECOND TO A WAR COMING TO AN END WHICH IS URGENTLY NEEDED.
IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR FAR TOO LONG, SEVERAL YEARS NOW.
HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO GET AID INTO THOSE WHO NEED IT MOST RIGHT NOW?
>> IT IS --IT IS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.
I'VE WORKED FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS AND CERTAINLY PROVIDING AID IS AMONGST THE MOST DIFFICULT THINGS I'VE HAD TO DO WITH MY TEAMS.
IT IS LOGISTICALLY DIFFICULT.
YOU HAVE TO TRAVEL ACROSS TERRAIN.
IT TAKES TWO DAYS TO GET THERE.
THERE ARE CHECK POINTS AND FEES VENDORS HAVE TO PAY FOR IF THEY WANT TO END UP THERE.
SO WE ARE ABLE TO WORK IN A PLACE LIKE THERE AND WE ARE NOT ABLE TO GO TO EL FASHER RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF THE SITUATION THAT IS STILL DEVELOPING IN EL FASHER.
AND SO WE --WITH ALL OUR EFFORTS WE ARE ABLE TO BE PRESENT, WE'RE ABLE TO DELIVER, WE'RE ABLE TO SUPPORT ALL OF THE PEOPLE THERE, AND WE ARE VERY DISTURBED AND DESPERATELY WAITING FOR -- WE WANT TO SAY WE WANT THESE PEOPLE TO HAVE SAFE ROOMS AND GET TO A PLACE WHERE WE CAN ASSIST THEM AND THEY CAN ASSIST THEMSELVES.
>> BEYOND DISPLACEMENT, SEXUAL VIOLENCE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE SYSTEMATIC WEAPON OF WAR HERE THAT WE'VE BEEN REPORTING ON SINCE 2023.
LET ME READ AN EXCERPT FROM YOU FROM THORKERS ESCAPE.
THIS IS A HARROWING ACCOUNT OF RSF FIGHTERS RAPING A MAN AND THEN BURNING HIM ALIVE.
IT IS QUITE GRUESOME AND CHALLENGING TO LISTEN FOR OUR VIEWERS, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.
HE HEARD A COMMOTION OUTSIDE HIS HOUSE.
RSF FIGHTERS IN KHAKI UNIFORMS WERE STEALING A MAN'S MONEY.
THEY RAPED HIM --THEN THEY RAPED HIM, HE SAID.
THEY PASSED HIM FROM ONE TO ANOTHER.
ONCE THE FIGHTERS LEFT, HE RAN OUT TO HELP THE MAN BUT THE SOLDIERS RETURNED CARRYING A CAN OF GASOLINE.
THE FIGHTERS POURED FUEL ON THE MAN.
HE TRIED TO STOP THEM BUT THEY WERE ARMED.
THE MAN WAS WEEPING AS THE FIGHTERS SET HIM ON FIRE.
A SOLDIER WARNED HIM --YOUR TURN IS COMING.
WHY HAS SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND HOW HAS SEXUAL VIOLENCE BEEN ALLOWED TO BE USED SO INDISCRIMINATELY AGAINST MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN IN THIS GRUESOME WAR?
>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, FOR AMPLIFYING THAT TESTIMONY AND REALLY SHEDDING LIGHT ON WHAT IS HAPPENING, AS YOU SAID, TO NOT ONLY WOMEN AND GIRLS IN SUDAN FIRST AND FOREMOST BUT ALSO TO MEN AND BOYS.
THIS IS A TACTIC THAT IS BEING USED INDISCRIMINATELY BY BOTH SIDES ALTHOUGH THERE IS CERTAINLY MORE DOCUMENTATION OF THE RSF'S USE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A WEAPON OF WAR.
BUT THIS IS A WEAPON BEING USED BECAUSE THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY A WAR AGAINST THE CIVILIANS OF SUDAN.
BOTH RSF AND SAF ARE TRYING TO DISMANTLE THE PROGRESS MADE DURING THE REVOLUTION IN SUDAN TOWARDS PEACE, JUSTICE, AND FREEDOM.
AND THE BEST WAY THEY CAN UNDERMINE THIS PROGRESS IS THROUGH REDUCING, ANNIHILATING, OR ATTEMPTING TO ANNIHILATE THE DIGNITY OF SUDANESE CIVILIANS.
AND WHAT HAS BEEN REALLY APPARENT IN THIS CONFLICT IS T A PATTERN OF VIOLATION THAT HAVE BEEN OCCURRING.
THEY'VE BEEN WELL-DOCUMENTED FIRST AND FOREMOST BY SUDANESE CIVIL SOCIETY, SUDANESE DOCUMENTERS WHO REMAIN ON THE GROUND AND CONTINUE TO DO THE WORK OF SHARING THESE STORIES WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AT INCREDIBLY SIGNIFICANT COST TO THEMSELVES.
BUT I'VE ALSO SAT IN ON INTERVIEWS WITH SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN SUDAN.
I REMEMBER ONE PARTICULARLY POIGNANT STORY OF A WOMAN WHO HAD BEEN TAKEN BY THE RSF, THE RSF ENTERED HER FAMILY HOME.
AND WHEN HER FATHER ATTEMPTED TO ENTER THE ROOM TO PROTECT HIS DAUGHTER, THE FATHER WAS KILLED.
AND THIS IS JUST ONE STORY.
BUT THE CURRENT ESTIMATE IS THAT ONLY 3% OF THE ACTUAL RAPES THAT ARE HAPPENING IN SUDAN ARE BEING DOCUMENTED.
SO WE KNOW THIS IS HAPPENING.
PART OF OUR QUESTION HERE IS NOT ONLY WHERE ARE THE DISPLACED BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ARRIVING AT THE MAIN HUMANITARIAN HAVEN IN THE REGION AT THE MOMENT, BUT ALSO I'VE BEEN OBSERVING AND ANALYZING THE FOOTAGE, THE SELF-RECORDED FOOTAGE BY THE RSF OF THEIR VIOLATIONS OVER THE PAST 48 HOURS, AND I HAVE SEEN VERY FEW WOMEN OR CHILDREN IN THIS FOOTAGE.
SO IT'S ALSO THE QUESTION OF WHERE ARE THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN ADDITION TO WHERE ARE THE YOUNG MEN?
>> AND WHEN YOU SAY ONLY 3% HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTED AND YOU COUPLE THAT WITH WHAT UNICEF HAS DOCUMENTED ALREADY, OVER 220 CHILD RAPES SINCE EARLY 2024.
THAT INCLUDES INFANTS.
JUST TRY TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND THAT WHEN WE COUPLE THAT WITH THE STATISTIC THAT YOU JUST TOLD US, AND THAT IS ONLY 3% OF THESE TYPES OF ATROCITIES HAVE ALREADY BEEN DOCUMENTED.
ARJAN, I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE UAE HERE BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN DENYING WHAT EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PROVING OTHERWISE AND MOUNTING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS SINCE THIS WAR BEGAN, AND THAT IS THAT THEY ARE ARMING THE RSF.
IN WHAT INTEREST IS IT OF THE UAE TO CONTINUE TO DO SO?
>> THAT'S A QUESTION THAT I DON'T REALLY HAVE A READY MADE ANSWER FOR.
WE DO KNOW, HOWEVER, THAT IN SUDAN BOTH WARRING PARTIES ARE BEING SUPPORTED SIGNIFICANTLY BY OUTSIDE ACTORS, THE UAE BUT ALSO OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION.
AND THIS IN TURN HAS AGGRAVATED AND ESCALATED THE WAR IN SUDAN AND MADE IT VERY, VERY DIFFICULT FOR ANY MEDIATION AND ANY NEGOTIATION TO TAKE PLACE.
AND SO THAT'S THE REALITY OF SUDAN.
IT'S A REGIONAL WAR WITH MANY OUTSIDE INTERESTS, AND THAT CONTINUES TO FUEL THE WAR AND CREATE HAVOC AND DISASTER AND TRAGEDY AMONGST ITS CIVILIAN POPULATION.
>> SHAYNA, LET ME ASK YOU THAT SAME QUESTION.
HOW DO YOU INTERPRET ABU DHABI'S POSITION HERE?
>> THE UAE'S ONGOING INVOLVEMENT IN THE SUDAN CONFLICT IS A QUESTION ONGOING IN OUR MINDS.
PART OF THE DYNAMIC HERE IS THAT THE UAE IS ATTEMPTING TO PROP UP THE LEADER OF THE RSF, HEMETI, AS A COUNTERWEIGHT TO THE RISING ISLAMIST REGIME.
AND FOLLOWING THE COUP OF OCTOBER 2021 THAT THE HEAD OF THE SUDANESE ARMED FORCES AND THE HEAD OF THE RSF JOINTLY PERPETRATED, THERE HAS BEEN THE RE-ESTABLISHMENT AND REENTRENCHMENT OF THE FORMER REGIME.
WHEN I WAS IN KHARTOUM IN JUNE OF THIS YEAR JUST AFTER THE RECAPTURING OF KHARTOUM, THE CAPITAL, BY THE SUDANESE ARMED FORCES, IT WAS VERY CLEAR TO ME THAT THE OLD STATES --THE OLD REGIME WAS FULLY BACK IN POWER.
AND THIS TRANSLATES TO A SUPPRESSION OF CIVIC SPACE, THREATS AGAINST HUMANITARIAN WORKERS PARTICULARLY SUDANESE WHO ARE WORKING IN THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ROOMS AND OTHER GRASSROOTS INITIATIVES BUT ALSO HUMAN RIGHTS DOCUMENTERS.
AND JUST IN THE PAST THREE WEEKS WE KNOW OF MULTIPLE HUMAN RIGHTS MONITORS AND JOURNALISTS WHO WERE KILLED IN EL FASHER BY THE RSF.
SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE UAE'S INTERESTS IN PROPPING UP THE RSF, WE CAN'T IGNORE THOSE DYNAMICS WHICH PLAY INTO THE REGION.
BUT I THINK IT'S WORTH NOTING THERE ARE OTHER EXTERNAL BACKERS INVOLVED.
WE HAVE EGYPT, PARTICULARLY ON THE SIDE OF THE ARMED FORCE AND THE U. S. HAS BEEN PROACTIVE IN ASSEMBLING THESE FOREIGN BACKS INTO A FORUM KNOWN AS THE QUAD AND THE QUAD IS TRYING TO PURSUE CEASE- FIRE NEGOTIATIONS.
BUT WE CAN'T ACHIEVE CEASE-FIRE UNLESS THE SUDANESE NOT JUST THE RSF AND SAF BUT ALSO INCLUDING SUDANESE CIVILIANS BECAUSE THE CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP HAS TO BE AT THE TABLE OTHERWISE THE INTEGRITY OF ANY KIND OF PROCESS ON THE GROUND IS VERY MUCH IN QUESTION.
>> ONE COULD ARGUE THAT ANOTHER FACTOR THAT IS KEEPING A CEASE-FIRE FROM FORMING AT THIS POINT IS GLOBAL PRESSURE AND CONDEMNATION AND WIDESPREAD ATTENTION HERE TO THIS WAR.
THE U.N.
CALLED THIS THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN THE WORLD.
AND I ASKED JUST LAST MONTH --WHY THIS ISN'T GETTING THE TYPE OF ATTENTION THAT IT SO RIGHTLY DESERVED, AND HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID.
>> THE WORLD IS PRETENDING THAT IT HAS ALL THESE OTHER CONFLICTS IN THE WORLD THAT IS ALREADY ON ITS DOCKET, WHICH IS TRUE.
BUT FRANKLY THE WORLD CAN WALK AND CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME.
THIS IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, ALSO THE WORLD'S LARGEST HUNGER CRASIS, ALSO THE WORLD'S LARGEST DISPLACEMENT CRISIS, AND ALSO THE WORLD'S LARGEST PROTECTION CRISIS.
THERE IS NO GOOD REASON OTHER THAN RACISM, FRANKLY, AT THIS POINT THAT MEANS THAT SUDAN IS NOT GETTING THE ATTENTION IT DESERVES.
>> LET ME START WITH YOU, SHAYNA.
HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT TAKE?
>> I'M NOT SURE I CAN SAY IT ANY BETTER THAN HER.
THAT FUNDAMENTALLY THERE ARE COUNTRIES RUNNING COVER FOR EXTERNAL BACKERS WITHIN THE SECURITY COUNCIL.
THERE ARE A RAFT OF MEASURES THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY COULD HAVE TAKEN IN TERMS OF ATROCITY PREVENTION AND DEESCALATION PARTICULARLY FOR EL FASHER.
THE COMMUNITY, AS I SAID, HAVE BEEN RAISING THE ALARMS FOR OVER TWO YEARS.
I KNOW AT PAEMA, MY ORGANIZATION, WE WENT BACK TO OUR RECORDS THIS MORNING AND WE HAVE ISSUED OVER 20 PUBLIC AND PRIVATE STATEMENTS TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WARNING ABOUT THE ATROCITY DYNAMICS.
SO THIS REALLY COMES DOWN TO NOT A LACK OF INFORMATION BY POLICY MAKERS.
THEY HAVE KNOWN THE ENTIRE TIME WHAT WAS COMING FOR THE CIVILIANS OF NORTH DARFUR, BUT IT'S A LACK OF POLITICAL WILL.
WE HAD SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 2736 FROM I BELIEVE JUNE OF LAST YEAR, BUT IT HAS JUST EXISTED AS A PIECE OF PAPER WITHOUT ANY POLITICAL WILL ON IMPLEMENTATION IN SUDAN.
SO UNTIL THAT POLITICAL WILL IS DERIVED AND ACTUALLY SOME SOUL-SEARCHING ON WHY COUNTRIES CONTINUE TO PRIORITIZE BLOOD MONEY OVER THE LIVES AND BLOOD OF SUDANESE CIVILIANS, THIS POLITICAL INTRACTABILITY WILL CONTINUE FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE AND MANY, MANY MORE THOUSANDS OF SUDANESE CIVILIANS WILL DIE BECAUSE OF INTERNATIONAL INACTION.
>> REALLY SOBERING WORDS, SOBERING TAKE.
NOTHING MORE THAN A SHEET OF PAPER IN TERMS OF A GLOBAL RESPONSE AND ANY SORT OF FIERCE, FIERCE ATTEMPT TO --TO BRING THIS DEADLY CONFLICT TO AN END.
IT IS - - IT IS A SHAME, AND SADLY THIS IS A TRAGEDY THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO LIKELY COVER IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS TO COME.
IN THE MEANTIME, ARJAN HEHENKAMP AND SHAYNA LEWIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS CONVERSATION.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO COVER THIS VERY IMPORTANT STORY.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NEXT TO WASHINGTON, D.C.
WHERE A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN IS ABOUT TO ENTER ITS FIFTH WEEK.
NEGOTIATIONS REMAIN AT A STANDSTILL AND THE DEBATE OVER HEALTH CARE FUNDING FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ONE OF THE MAIN STICKING POINTS BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS.
AND ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST IT'S A DEBATE RIDDLED WITH MISLEADING CLAIMS.
"THE WASHINGTON POST" REPORTER DAVID OVALLE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN THAT HIS LATEST ARTICLE IS ETISSING THE RECORD STRAIGHT.
>> DAVID OVALLE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
YOU WROTE A PIECE RECENTLY WHICH WAS VERY SIMPLY TITLED "HERE'S WHO PAYS WHEN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS GET HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA. "
AND THIS IS LITERALLY THE CENTER OF WHY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS SHUTDOWN RIGHT NOW.
YOU HAVE REPUBLICANS SAYING THAT DEMOCRATS WANT TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE GET FREE HEALTH CARE, AND DEMOCRATS SAYING THAT'S JUST NOT THE WAY THAT LAW WORKS TODAY, AND YOU POINT OUT EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING.
>> I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY AN ISSUE THAT'S VERY NUANCED AND VERY GRAY.
AND IT DOES NOT FIT NEATLY INTO THE NARRATIVES THAT REALLY EITHER SIDE ARE PUTTING OUT THERE IN TERMS OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE HEALTH CARE DEBATE.
BUT THE REALITY IS TAXPAYERS DO PAY SOME FOR INDIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY FOR CARE FOR UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE, BUT IT IS NEITHER AS GLARING AND AS STARK AS REPUBLICANS MIGHT HAVE YOU BELIEVE ON SOME OF THE TALKING POINTS THAT ARE GOING ON RIGHT NOW OVER THE DEBATE ABOUT THE SHUTDOWN.
>> OKAY, SO THE DEMOCRATS SAY, LOOK, THAT'S NOT HOW THE LAW WORKS.
YOU CAN'T GET HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA IF YOU AREN'T DOCUMENTED.
THAT SAID, IF AN UNDOCUMENTED HUMAN BEING WALKS INTO AN EMERGENCY ROOM BECAUSE THEIR, YOU KNOW, ARM IS BROKEN, THEY'RE GOING TO GET HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA.
WHO PAYS FOR THAT?
>> RIGHT.
SO AT THE END OF THE DAY THE REPUBLICAN --THE REPUBLICANS HAVE REALLY ZEROED IN ON EMERGENCY MEDICAID.
NOW WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT EMERGENCY MEDICAID IS ALL OF THIS STEMS FROM --FROM LAWS THAT WERE PASSED IN THE '80s UNDER PRESIDENT REAGAN THAT BASICALLY SAID YOU CANNOT --THAT YOU CANNOT DENY SOMEONE EMERGENCY COVERAGE AT THE EMERGENCY ROOM IF THEY COME IN.
AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A BASIC HUMAN ELEMENT, RIGHT?
WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE NOT BEING ABLE TO BE TREATED FOR SOMETHING LIKE A CAR CRASH OR FOR A FALL OR SOME EMERGENCY THING.
SO THERE IS THE EMERGENCY MEDICAID PROGRAM, WHICH IF YOU ARE OTHERWISE ELIGIBLE FOR MEDICAID, THEN YOU CAN GET COVERAGE THROUGH --YOU CAN GET --THE HOSPITALS CAN GET REIMBURSED FOR THE SERVICES THAT ARE PROVIDED, OKAY.
SO THIS IS GOING TO BE FOR THAT VERY NARROW EMERGENCY ROOM VISIT, RIGHT?
SO THIS MAY PAY FOR YOUR BROKEN ARM IF YOU FALL IN A CONSTRUCTION SITE, RIGHT?
BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO PAY FOR THE REHABILITATION VISITS.
IT'S NOT GOING TO PAY FOR THE ONGOING CARE THAT YOU MIGHT NEED AFTERWARD.
SO IT'S --IT'S REALLY EMERGENCY MEDICAID IS LESS THAN 1% OF ALL MEDICAID SPENDING, SO IT'S, YOU KNOW, COMPARED TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF SPENDING THAT IS DONE FOR PRIMARILY U. S. CITIZENS, IT IS A VERY, VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY.
BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS EXPLICITLY BUILT INTO LAW THAT ALLOWS FOR FEDERAL FUNDS TO PAY FOR EMERGENCY CARE FOR PEOPLE WITHOUT PAPERS.
>> SO IF IT'S LESS THAN 1%, THE REPUBLICANS ALSO TALK ABOUT KIND OF THE NUMBER THAT YOU HEAR IN THE PRESS IS $200 BILLION.
THAT IF THE PROVISIONS ARE KIND OF REINSTATED, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY THE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL ROLLED BACK SOME OF THESE KIND OF EXTENSIONS OF TAX CREDITS.
IF THESE TAX CREDITS COME BACK IN IT'S $200 BILLION WORTH.
WHERE IS THAT NUMBER FROM?
>> THERE'S A LOT OF FRUSTRATION GOING ON IN A LOT OF THE CLAIMS GOING BACK AND FORTH.
ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND IS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS -- HAS REALLY ZEROED IN ON PEOPLE THAT IT BELIEVES SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN AFFORDED ANY KIND OF LEGAL STATUS TO BEGIN WITH UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, RIGHT?
SO THESE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE THAT GOT PROTECTION UNDER TPS PROGRAMS, UNDER OTHER IMMIGRATION PROGRAMS.
AND SO THIS WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT CAME INTO THE UNITED STATES AND WERE GIVEN SOME SORT OF LEGAL STATUS.
FOR THE REPUBLICANS THEY SAY, WELL, THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN ANY KIND OF PROTECTIONS.
AND SO THEREFORE THE HEALTH CARE THAT THEY ARE AFFORDED BECAUSE OF THAT LEGAL STATUS SHOULD NOT BE AFFORDED TO THEM.
SO THERE'S SORT OF SOME CONFLATION GOING ON THERE BECAUSE IT'S NOT REALLY THE UNDOCUMENTED POPULATION THAT WE THINK OF THAT JUST SNUCK ACROSS THE BORDER AND IS LIVING AND WORKING.
THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT CAME IN, HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF LEGAL STATUS.
SOME IT'S IN LIMBO, RIGHT?
WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE FROM COUNTRIES THAT ARE IN SORT OF LEGAL LIMBO RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEIR TPS PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN PULLED BACK.
BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD FALL UNDER THIS BUCKET, RIGHT?
SO SOME OF THESE NUMBERS GET A LITTLE CONFLATED, BUT WHAT THE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL DID WAS IT TIGHTENED ELIGIBILITY FOR A LOT OF THESE PROGRAMS.
SO SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL NOW NO LONGER -- ARE NOW NO LONGER ELIGIBLE FOR ANY OF THESE FEDERAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAMS.
AND SO WHAT ROLLING BACK SOME OF THOSE PROVISIONS IN THE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL WOULD DO IS -- WOULD DO IS GIVE THOSE PEOPLE BACK SOME OF THAT COVERAGE.
>> GOT IT.
YOU SPOKE TO INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE GETTING HEALTH CARE OR NOT GETTING HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA ALONG WITH THE PROVIDERS, THE CLINIC AND SO FORTH IN THE STORY.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU POINT OUT IS THE MORE COMMON EXPERIENCE FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES ILLEGALLY IS THAT THEY OFTEN FOREGO ROUTINE MEDICAL APPOINTMENTS, PAY OUT-OF-POCKET FOR SPECIALIZED CARE, RELY ON COMMUNITY CLINICS AND TURN TO EMERGENCY ROOMS AS A LAST RESORT, ACCORDING TO HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS AND IMMIGRANT ADVOCATES.
HOW DOES SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE PAPERS IN AMERICA JUST KIND OF NAVIGATE NORMAL LIFE, WHETHER IT'S THE COMMON COLD OR FLU OR WHETHER ULTIMATELY GETTING TO THAT KIND OF BROKEN ARM EXAMPLE?
>> LOOK, HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA IS COMPLICATED FOR CITIZENS, RIGHT?
JUST NAVIGATING WHETHER YOU HAVE HEALTH CARE, WHETHER YOU DON'T HAVE HEALTH CARE, WHETHER YOU HAVE SOME MIX OF CHARITY CARE AND GOVERNMENT-BACKED HEALTH, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S JUST AS DIFFICULT AND THEN SOME FOR PEOPLE WITHOUT PAPERS.
SO I THINK COMMUNITY CLINICS TEND TO BE SORT OF THE GO-TO PLACES FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WITHOUT PAPERS AND PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T HAVE MONEY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPOVERISHED.
SO THIS WILL BE FOR A VERY COMMON PREVENTATIVE TYPE THINGS, RIGHT?
YOU HAVE A COLD, MAYBE YOU NEED BLOOD PRESSURE MEDICATION, MAYBE YOU'RE DIABETIC, AND SO YOU GO TO THESE ESPECIALLY IN RURAL AREAS AND UNDERSERVED AREAS WHERE IT'S JUST NOT MUCH ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE, THOSE PROVIDE A REAL CRUCIAL PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO GET HEALTH CARE.
AND WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THAT IS THAT THERE'S --YOU KNOW, MOST OF THEM ARE REQUIRED BY LAW TO SERVE WHOEVER IS IN THEIR LOCAL AREA, RIGHT?
REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY'RE ELIGIBLE OR NOT OR WHETHER THEY HAVE ANY KIND OF --OF DOCUMENTED STATUS, RIGHT?
SO THAT IS BUILT INTO THE LAW.
NOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN TRYING TO PULL BACK ON SOME OF THOSE --THE FUNDING THAT GOES TOWARD THESE TYPES OF PROGRAMS.
BUT, AGAIN, ALSO LOT OF THAT MONEY COMES FROM THE STATE OR IS FEDERAL MONEY THAT'S ROUTED THROUGH THE STATE, RIGHT?
SO IT'S NOT ALWAYS AS CLEAR-CUT AS FEDERAL TAXPAYER MONEY IS FUNNELING DOWN TO COMMUNITY CLINICS.
THAT'S REALLY - -IT'S A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.
THAT IS ONE WAY.
AND EVEN THEN UNDOCUMENTED ILGRNTS STILL PAY FOR SOME OF THEIR CARE, FOR A LOT OF THEIR CARE.
AND MORE OVER, THEY WANT TO PAY FOR A LOT OF THEIR CARE.
IF YOU READ MY STORY I SPOKE TO A MEDICAL DIRECTOR AT A CLINIC HERE IN SOUTH FLORIDA WHERE I'M BASED, AND SHE APPOINTMENTED OUT THAT A LOT OF THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE USED TO PAYING FOR HEALTH CARE IN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO COME HERE AND JUST FEEL LIKE THEY'RE LEACHING OFF THE GOVERNMENT.
THEY WANT TO PAY AT LEAST SOMETHING FOR SOME OF THEIR CARE.
SO A LOT OF IS DONE ON A SLIDING SCALE.
SO YOU COME IN, YOU'RE GOING TO PAY MAYBE ONLY 55, $60 FOR A VISIT, AND THE MEDICATIONS WILL BE MUCH MORE, RIGHT?
SO A LOT OF THIS CAN GET KIND OF COMPLICATED AND BLESSY FOR PEOPLE, AND A LOT OF TIMES THEY'LL JUST FOREGO THE CARE.
IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING THEY'LL JUST GO BUY OVER THE COUNTER TYLENOL OR MEDICATIONS FOR YOUR COMMON COLD OR WHATEVER.
AND OFTENTIMES THEY, YOU KNOW, JUST DON'T GO UNLESS IT'S ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY AN EMERGENCY.
>> I WONDER IF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU SPOKE WITH ARE THEY FOREGOING CARE THAT COULD BE PREVENTING FURTHER COSTS DOWN THE LINE?
>> AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT -- THAT DOCTORS AND PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS AND IMMIGRANT ADVOCATES STRESS IS THAT BY --IF WE ARE CUTTING OFF CARE ON THE PREVENTIVE SIDE, IT ENDS UP COSTING TAXPAYERS MORE WHEN THEY DO GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOMS, RIGHT, WHEN THERE IS A COMPLICATION FROM DIABETES OR THERE IS A COMPLICATION FROM CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE.
BY NOT TREATING IT ON THE FRONT END, WE ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO INCREASE THE COSTS ON THE BACK END.
AND I THINK WHERE WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT TAKE PLACE A LOT IS IN SOME OF THE --THE IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT THAT'S GOING ON.
SO THAT'S SORT OF SEPARATE FROM --FROM ALL THE DEBATE ABOUT TAXPAYER MONEY GOING, BUT YOU'RE HAVING A LOT OF PEOPLE WITHOUT PAPERS OR QUESTIONABLE PAPERS OR MAYBE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN MIXED FAMILIES, SO MAYBE THEY'RE UNDOCUMENTED BUT THEIR KIDS ARE CITIZENS.
AND SO A LOT OF THEM ARE JUST FOREGOING THE CARE BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF GOING OUT.
THEY'RE AFRAID OF GETTING TARGETED BY IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.
I'VE SPOKEN TO PEOPLE AT DIFFERENT COMMUNITY CLINICS WHO SAID, YEAH, WE'RE ARRANGING AND WE'VE HAD PEOPLE SKIP SURGERIES.
WE'VE HAD PEOPLE NOT --JUST SKIPPING APPOINTMENTS BECAUSE THEY'RE GENUINELY TERRIFIED OF GOING OUT.
SO THAT IS GOING TO PLAY OUT WHEN YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, THESE HEALTH CONDITIONS THAT START GETTING WORSE AND GETTING WORSE.
AND THEN ULTIMATELY WHEN THERE'S NO REMEDY, THEN THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO END UP GOING TO EMERGENCY CARE.
SO THERE IS A LOT OF CONSTERNATION ABOUT THAT, AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE MAY END UP SEEING PLAY OUT DOWN THE ROAD.
>> ARE THERE PARTICULAR REGIONS OR PARTICULAR INDUSTRIES THAT AFFECT THE TYPE OF HEALTH CARE NEEDS THAT SOME OF THE UNDOCUMENTED IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE?
>> WELL, YEAH, IF YOU THINK ABOUT --THINK ABOUT A LOT OF THE JOBS THAT UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE HAVE NOW, RIGHT, THAT ARE JOBS THAT AMERICANS THAT ARE CITIZENS ARE MORE RELUCTANT TO TAKE, RIGHT?
THIS IS FARM WORKERS.
FARM WORKERS ARE OUTSIDE.
THEY ARE GOING TO BE EXPOSED TO MORE SUN.
YOU MIGHT HAVE MORE SUNSTROKE.
YOU MIGHT HAVE A REGION LIKE I SPOKE TO A CLINIC -- A CLINIC DIRECTOR --A CLINIC CEO IN THE CENTRAL VALLEY IN CALIFORNIA WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF POLLUTION IN THE AIR, AND SO THAT LEADS TO THINGS LIKE ASTHMA AND RESPIRATORY CONDITION.
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE DOING VERY PHYSICAL WORK, RIGHT?
THINK ABOUT THE PHYSICAL TOLL THAT IS TAKEN AT A POULTRY PLANT, RIGHT, AT A PROCESSING PLANT IN GEORGIA OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE SOUTH WHERE THERE ARE A LOT OF UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE WORKING.
THOSE PLACES ARE GOING TO BE VERY TAXING ON YOUR --ON YOUR HANDS, ON YOUR LIMBS, THERE'S GOING TO BE ACCIDENTS THAT HAPPEN.
SO THESE ARE VERY PHYSICAL JOBS THAT REQUIRE, YOU KNOW, JUST A LOT OF EXERTION.
AND ULTIMATELY THERE'S A PHYSICAL PRICE TO BE PAID FOR LOT OF THESE JOBS.
YEAH, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE CERTAINLY A FACTOR.
NOW, IMMIGRANTS TEND TO USE NOT AS MUCH HEALTH CARE.
THEY TEND TO BE MORE HEALTHY IN WORKING AGE.
A LOT OF THE RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S STILL A LOT OF INDUSTRIES THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE JUST GOING TO BE MORE PRONE TO -- TO HEALTH CONDITIONS.
>> SO IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU'VE DISCOVERED SO FAR IN YOUR RESEARCH THAT INDICATES THAT THERE'S A WAY THROUGH THIS?
I MEAN, BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND YOU SEE JUST FROM A NUMBERS STANDPOINT, LOOK, IF THESE ARE SUBSIDIES THAT EXIST FOR CERTAIN POPULATIONS AND IDEOLOGICALLY WANT TO ROLL THESE BACK, THAT SEEMS LIKE A NONSTARTER.
AND THEN ON THE OTHER HAND YOU KIND OF HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING, LOOK, THIS IS, YOU KNOW, STRUCTURALLY NOT THE WAY THAT HEALTH CARE IS DESIGNED.
BUT IF THERE ARE ANY GOVERNMENT FUNDS GOING, IT'S BECAUSE THAT'S ALSO PART OF THE LAW, THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO GET CARE IN EMERGENCY ROOMS, RIGHT?
SO IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THERE'S A PRETTY BIG GAP HERE AS WE ALL LIVE THROUGH THIS GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.
>> YEAH.
AND I THINK --BUT I THINK SOME OF THIS IS GOING TO --A LOT OF THIS IS GOING TO GO ON EVEN WHEN THE SHUTDOWN IS RESOLVED, RIGHT?
I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL DID IS IT CHANGED THE RATIO OF HOW MUCH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PAYS FOR EMERGENCY MEDICAID, RIGHT?
SO -- BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY THE STATES WILL NOW HAVE TO BIRD BEAR A LITTLE BIT MORE OF THE MONEY THAT GOES TOWARDS MEDICAID.
BUT THE MONEY WILL STILL HAVE TO BE PAID.
PEOPLE WILL STILL HAVE TO BE TREATED AT THE HOSPITAL.
THIS IS NOT JUST IN HEALTH CARE BUT IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT AREAS WHERE WE'RE SEEING STATES TAKE ON MORE OF A BURDEN AND THE FOR GOVERNMENT WITHDRAWING FROM A LOT OF THESE EFFORTS, RIGHT?
SO WE SEE THAT IN HEALTH CARE.
YOU KNOW, EVEN WITH --THERE ARE PROGRAMS -- CERTAIN STATES THAT DO PROVIDE HEALTH CARE FOR UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE THROUGH SEPARATE MEDICAID-TYPE PROGRAMS, RIGHT, LIKE CALIFORNIA BEING THE MOST -- THE BIGGEST EXAMPLE.
D.C., A FEW OTHER STATES, BLUE STATES.
SO YOU CAN GET HEALTH CARE IF YOU'RE ELIGIBLE FOR MEDICAID THROUGH PLACES IN CALIFORNIA, RIGHT?
AND THAT'S BEEN A BIG SOURCE OF CONSTERNATION FOR REPUBLICANS.
BECAUSE THERE'S BUDGET CRUNCHES, BECAUSE THE STATES ARE GETTING MUCH LESS MONEY FROM THE FEDS, NOW SOME OF THE STATES ARE STARTING TO PULL BACK SPENDING ON SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS, RIGHT?
SO IT'S GOING TO TAX THE EXISTING HEALTH CARE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT MUCH MORE, THE COMMUNITY CLINICS THAT MUCH MORE.
COMMUNITY CLINICS ARE FACING A LOT FEWER DOLLARS FROM --FROM WASHINGTON AND FROM THEIR STATE CAPITOLS, SO IT'S GOING TO SORT OF, LIKE, START TRICKLING DOWN, AND THAT'S WHEN WE'RE GOING TO START SEEING, YOU KNOW, MORE EMERGENCY ROOM VISITS, MORE PEOPLE SUFFERING CONDITIONS BECAUSE THERE'S JUST LESS --IT'S JUST GREATER BARRIERS TO GETTING CARE.
>> I'M GOING TO BE REMISS IN TALKING TO A HEALTH REPORTER AND NOT ASKING ABOUT THE FLIGHT OF WHAT AMERICAN CITIZENS WHO ARE ON THE EXCHANGES ARE STARTING TO EXPERIENCE.
THEY'RE GETTING THESE NOTICES.
HOW SIGNIFICANT OF AN INCREASE ARE MOST AMERICANS LIKELY TO SEE IN THEIR PREMIUMS WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?
>> IF THE SUBSIDIES ARE NOT EXTENDED, IT'S GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING TO BE QUITE HEFTY, AND PARTICULARLY THERE'S ANOTHER STORY THAT I DID A WEEK BEFORE THE STORY THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY ON --ON HOW REPUBLICAN STATES ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO REALLY SUFFER A LOT WITH THE --THE SUBSIDIES NOT BEING EXTENDED.
SO HERE IN MIAMI WHERE I LIVE, YOU KNOW, IT'S A RED COUNTY NOW.
IT'S A PLACE THAT HAS BACKED TRUMP AND PARTICULARLY AMONG IMMIGRANT GROUPS, MANY OF THEM HAVE BACKED TRUMP.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE HERE IN HIALEAH, WHERE I'M CLOSE TO IS A VERY, VERY CUBAN AMERICAN STRONG HOLD THAT IS VERY SUPPORTIVE OF TRUMP, BUT THEY ARE ALSO ONE OF THE LEADING AREAS -- ZIP CODES FOR OBAMACARE ENROLLMENT, AND THEIR PREMIUMS ARE GOING TO GO THROUGH THE ROOF.
REPUBLICANS HAVE REALLY RECOGNIZED THIS IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE A LOT OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS ARE GOING TO SEE THEIR HEALTH CARE COSTS GO UP A LOT.
SO IT'S -- IT AFFECTS EVERYBODY.
IT AFFECTS EVERYBODY, AND I THINK EVEN IN THE PRIVATE MARKETS, RIGHT, WE'RE SEEING EMPLOYER-BACKED HEALTH PLANS GOING UP AS WELL.
SO IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT IT'S SORT OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL GOING TO SEE THESE PRICES GO UP NEXT YEAR.
AND REALLY THAT'S --THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE CAN'T --THAT NONE OF US CAN AVOID.
>> DAVID OVALLE OF "THE WASHINGTON POST," HEALTH AND SCIENCE REPORT, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
APPRECIATE IT.
>> FINALLY BRIGHT LIGHTS, COLORFUL COSTUMES AND FACE PAINT.
IT CAN ONLY MEAN ONE THING MEXICO'S DAY OF THE DEAD FESTIVITIES HAVE BEGUN.
THE MAIN AVENUE OF MEXICO CITY WAS TRANSFORMED INTO A PARADE OF ELEGANT DRESSES AND OVERSIZED HATS AS HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HONORED HONORED LA COCINA, A FIGURE THAT EMERGED AND BECOME ONE OF THE ICONIC SYMBOLS.
THE PARADE IS JUST ONE OF MANY TAKING PLACE.
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