October 8, 2025

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AS GAZA'S CEASEFIRE TALKS CONTINUE IN EGYPT, PROMINENT ISRAELI JOURNALIST NIR HASSON LOOKS BACK AT WHAT HE CALLS THE ISRAELI CAMPAIGN OF ATROCITIES.

> >> THEN WITH THE WHITE HOUSE RAMPING UP MILITARY PRESSURE ON VENEZUELA, IS THE U. S. ATTEMPTING REGIME CHANGE AGAINST PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO?

I SPEAK WITH OPPOSITION POLITICIAN DAVID SMOLANSKY AND FORMER BIDEN OFFICIAL JUAN SEBASTION GONZALEZ.

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> >> AND -- >> MAYBE THIS IS THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS IF WE WANT THIS FUTURE BUILT ON AI.

BUT IS THAT COST TOO HIGH?

>> THE DARK SIDE OF AMERICA'S AI EXPLOSION.

HARI SREENIVASAN DOES A DEEP DIVE WITH INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER HANNAH BECKLER.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --/e THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT/e JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE CHRISTIANE IN LONDON.

THE TALKS CONTINUE WITH STEVE WITKOFF AND SON-IN-LAW JARED KUSHNER ALONG WITH ISRAEL'S CHIEF NEGOTIATOR RON DERMER.

THEY JOIN TOP OFFICIALS FROM EGYPT, QATAR AND TURKEY.

BUT NOW, AFTER MORE THAN TWO YEARS AFTER THE HORRENDOUS ATTACKS OF OCTOBER 7th AND ISRAEL'S BRUTAL MILITARY RESPONSE, IF CEASEFIRE IS ACHIEVED WHAT WILL LIFE BE LIKE FOR ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS AFTER THE BOMBS STOP FALLING.

THE ISRAELI JOURNALIST NIR HASSON WRITES ABOUT WHAT HE CALLS THE OCTOBER 8th SURPRISE, ISRAEL'S RESPONSE TO THE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRE, WHICH HAS LEFT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS DEAD, GAZA IN RUBBLE, AND HE WRITES DESTROYED THE FOUNDATIONS ON WHICH THE STATE OF ISRAEL WAS BUILT.

SO NIR HASSON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I NEED YOU TO EXPLAIN THAT FOR OUR AUDIENCE, BECAUSE DESTROYING THE FOUNDATIONS ON WHICH ISRAEL WAS BUILT IS AN IMPORTANT STATEMENT TO MAKE.

AND I WANT TO KNOW ON WHAT DO YOU PREMISE THAT?

>> WELL, I WROTE IN MY ARTICLE THAT I THINK MY GOVERNMENT IS RESPONSIBLE OF TWO DISASTERS.

THE FIRST DISASTER IS OCTOBER 7, OF COURSE.

BUT THE SECOND DISASTER, WHICH I THINK WILL AFFECT OUR LIFE FOR YEARS AND DECADES TO COME IS THE RESPOND --THE BRUTAL RESPOND OF ISRAEL TO THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACKS.

AND THIS RESPONDING INCLUDED I THINK COUNTLESS NUMBERS OF WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, AND IT DESTROYED THE NAME OF ISRAEL.

IT STARTED WAVES OF SANCTIONS AND BOYCOTTS AGAINST THE CULTURE, THEIR SPORTS, THE ECONOMY IN ISRAEL, AND MUCH MORE.

BUT ALL OF THOSE, THEY ARE ONLY THE -- IT'S ONLY THE SMALL PARTS OF THE DISASTERS.

THE DISASTER ITSELF IS --IT'S THE TANGIBLE DEATH OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GAZAN, OF THE DESTRUCTION THAT WE MADE IN GAZA.

THE RAZE OF WHOLE CITIES.

IT'S GOING TO DESTROY THE LEGITIMACY, THE INTERNATIONAL LEGITIMACY OF ISRAEL AROUND THE WORLD.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO DESTROY THE INNER UNITY INSIDE ISRAELI SOCIETY.

BECAUSE MANY ISRAELIS WILL TRY TO GET THEMSELVES AS FAR AS THEY CAN FROM WHAT SEEMS TO BE WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

AND I REALLY AFRAID FOR THE FUTURE OF THIS STATE AFTER WHAT I CALLED THE OCTOBER 8th DISASTER.

>> SO NIR, LET ME ASK YOU, THERE WAS --I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU REPORT IT AND HOW YOU WERE THINKING IMMEDIATELY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, BUT WE KNOW THAT IT COMPLETELY PLUNGED ISRAELIS AND JEWS AROUND THE WORLD INTO A TERRIBLE TRAUMA WHICH CONTINUES TO THIS DAY.

AND I'M WONDERING HOW YOU REMEMBER BACK TWO YEARS NOW OF WHAT THE REACTION WAS THEN FROM INSIDE ISRAEL AND WHAT IT TOOK ON HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO THEN SHIFT YOUR LENS A BIT TO, AS YOU CALL IT, THE REVENGE AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA.

>> OF COURSE.

OCTOBER 7, IT'S A TRAUMA.

I THINK THE ISRAELI SOCIETY IS INSIDE THE TRAUMA.

WE'RE NOT IN THE POST TRAUMA.

WE'RE STILL IN THE TRAUMA.

FOR THE ISRAELIS AND EVEN FOR ME, I CAN SAY THE SUN OF OCTOBER 7th DIDN'T SET YET.

THIS STILL CONTINUES AS LONG AS WE HAVE HOSTAGES IN GAZA.

IT'S FELT THAT THIS DAY DIDN'T END.

HOWEVER, I THINK AS SOON AS OCTOBER 8, AS SOON AS THE IDF STARTED ITS ATTACK ON GAZA, THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE REAL GOAL OF THIS WAR OF DEFENSE THE BORDERS, SAVING THE HOSTAGES, AND DEFEATING HAMAS, A VERY --IT DOESN'T FEEL THAT THE ACT OF THE IDF, EVEN FROM THE FIRST DAY, FROM THE SECOND DAY OF THE WAR HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO THIS LOSS.

IT'S REALLY QUICK BECAME A WAR OF REVENGE AND DESTRUCTION AND IT FEEL LIKE THE ISRAEL LEADERSHIP TRYING TO ERASE THE FAILURE OF OCTOBER 7th BY THE BLOOD OF THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

BUT FOR ME, AS FOR I THINK ALL THE ISRAELI SOCIETY, WE WERE IN THE PAIN.

WE'RE FOCUSING ON OUR PAIN AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

AND I WAS COVERING THE MASSACRES, THE MASSACRE ESPECIALLY IN KIBBUTZ NIR OZ, AND IT'S TOOK ME A FEW MONTHS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPEN IN GAZA WILL AFFECT MY FUTURE AND THE FUTURE OF MY CHILDREN HERE IN ISRAEL, NOT LESS THAN WHAT HAPPENED OCTOBER 7th.

THE WAY THAT MY GOVERNMENT RESPOND TO THIS DISASTER, TO THIS MASSACRE AND ATROCITIES OF HAMAS WILL CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL NOT LESS THAN THE DAY OF THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE THESE TALKS ARE GOING ON, AND WE'VE HEARD NOTHING BUT PRETTY POSITIVE THE VARIOUS SPOKESPEOPLE TELL US THAT THEY'RE CONTINUING AND IMPORTANT PEOPLE ARE THERE.

YOU KNOW, THE MODALITIES OF THE HOSTAGE RETURNS AND THE RETURNS OF PALESTINIAN PRISONERS AND BODIES, ET CETERA.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THE MODALITIES AROUND THE ISRAELI WITHDRAWAL AND WHETHER THAT WILL HAPPEN.

ONCE THE BOMBS HAVE STOPPED FALLING AND THIS HORROR OF OCTOBER 7th AND THE OCTOBER 8th THAT YOU MENTION, ONCE THAT SEEMS TO BE THIS PHASE OF IT OVER, DO YOU THINK THAT --HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE YOUR COUNTRY AND HOW DO YOU ENVISION THE PALESTINIANS ENDING UP AFTER ALL OF THIS?

>> I THINK MY POINT IN THE ARTICLE THAT YOU MENTION IS THIS TWO DISASTERS THAT I TALK ABOUT, THE OCTOBER 7 AND OCTOBER 8 ARE CONNECTED.

AND THERE WILL BE NO REHABILITATION.

THERE WILL BE NO HEALING OF THE ISRAELI SOCIETY WITHOUT SOME KIND OF REHABILITATION AND HEALING OF THE PALESTINIAN SOCIETY IN GAZA.

IT GOES TOGETHER.

AND I THINK WE ARE NOT EVEN IN THE STAGE OF KNOWING WHAT'S GOING ON THERE.

I MEAN, I'M COVERING GAZA DAILY FOR A YEAR AND A HALF NOW, AND I STILL DON'T FEEL THAT I KNOW EXACTLY THE MAGNITUDE OF THE CATASTROPHE THAT HAPPEN IN GAZA.

SO FIRST OF ALL, WE WILL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON THERE.

HOW MANY PEOPLE REALLY DIED.

WE KNOW THE NUMBERS OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH FROM GAZA, WHICH IS ALMOST 70,000 PEOPLE.

BUT MOST OF I TALKED TO SAY THIS IS THE MINIMUM NUMBER, AND THE END WILL BE MUCH --THE DEATH AND THE NUMBERS, THE DEATH TOLL IN THE END WILL BE MUCH HIGHER.

AND IT MIGHT REACH 100,000 AND EVEN MORE IF WE INCLUDED ACCESS MORTALITY.

AND JUST THINK ABOUT IT.

THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT RAFAH IS MORE DESTROYED THAN HIROSHIMA.

MOST OF THE CITIES IN GAZA ARE MORE DESTROYED THAN NAGASAKI.

HOW LONG IT'S GOING TO EVEN START TO THINKING ABOUT REHABILITATION --REBUILDING AND HEALING THIS LAND.

BUT WHAT I'M SAYING TO THE ISRAELI SOCIETY IS WE MUST LOOK STRAIGHT AT WHAT HAPPENED IN GAZA AND MUST ACKNOWLEDGE IT AND THINKING ABOUT THE DAY AFTER THE WAR, BECAUSE FOR NOW, MOST OF THE ISRAELIS, IT'S NOT IN THEIR FOCUS.

THEY ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT GAZA, AND THIS IS VERY BAD FOR THE FUTURE I THINK.

>> SO I WANTED TO ASK YOU THAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT REACTION A PIECE LIKE THIS WITH THE HEADLINE LIKE THE ONE WE'VE DISCUSSED AND WHAT YOU'RE WRITING, WHAT IS THE REACTION INSIDE ISRAEL TO YOUR REPORTING AND YOUR CONCLUSIONS?

>> UM, WELL, I GOT A LOT OF REACTIONS.

I WILL SAY LIKE 50% OF THEM, IT'S LIKE CURSING AND DEATH WISHES AND THAT KIND OF STUFF.

BUT ABOUT THE OTHER 50% IS PEOPLE TELLING ME IT'S ABOUT TIME.

IT'S ABOUT TIME TALKING ABOUT IT.

IT'S ABOUT TIME THAT WE WILL DEAL WITH WHAT HAPPENED THERE AND WE'LL ASK OURSELVES WAS IT NECESSARY, WAS IT REALLY NECESSARY TO KILL SO MANY PEOPLE AND TO ACT IN SUCH A BRUTAL WAY ALONG THIS WAR.

AND IT GIVE ME SOME HOPE.

IT GIVE ME SOME HOPE THAT THE ISRAELIS STOP DENYING WHAT HAPPENED THERE AND START THE DISCOURSE AROUND IT.

>> I MEAN, YOU'VE QUOTED THE HISTORIAN ADAM ROZ ON THE EMERGENCE OF A COMMUNITY OF CRIME AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR WHERE THERE IS SORT OF A SHARED GUILT THAT YOU SAY, AND YOU AT MITT STARKLY, "I TOO AM PART OF THE ISRAELI COMMUNITY OF CRIME. "

IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT THING TO SAY, ESPECIALLY AFTER WHAT ISRAEL HAD TO DEAL WITH AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

>> OF COURSE, BUT STILL WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES HOW WE GOT THERE.

I MEAN, THE NAME OF ISRAEL FROM NOW ON WILL BE CONNECTED TO THIS TERM OF GENOCIDE.

NOW I DON'T KNOW IF THERE WAS GENOCIDE IN GAZA --GENOCIDE IN GAZA, BUT IT ALMOST DOESN'T MATTER.

IT EVEN DOESN'T MATTER THAT THE ICJ WILL DECIDE THERE IS GENOCIDE.

THE FACT THAT THE NAME OF MY COUNTRY IS NOW CONNECTED, IS NOW PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, THIS IS WHAT THEY THINK WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT THE NAME OF ISRAEL, IT'S HORRIBLE.

I THINK --I CANNOT THINK HOW BADLY --IT'S REALLY SCARY.

AND I ASK MYSELF HOW DID WE GET HERE.

AND I THINK IT'S --OCTOBER 7, THE TRAUMA OF OCTOBER 7 CANNOT EXPLAIN IT ALL.

OF COURSE IT'S PART OF THE ANSWER.

BUT THE OTHER PART OF THE ANSWER IS A LONG PROCESS THAT GOING ON IN THE ISRAELI SOCIETY FOR MANY, MANY YEARS WITH A CORRUPT AND EXTREME LEADERSHIP WITH GROWING IN THE MILITARISM, EXTREMISM, AND SHIFTING TO THE FAR RIGHT WING OF THE -- IN OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM, AND I THINK ALL OF IT TOGETHER GOT US TO THE POINT THAT WE CAN COMMIT SUCH CRIMES IN GAZA.

>> NIR, I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION.

YOU KNOW THAT YOUR PRIME MINISTER ESSENTIALLY DECLARES VICTORY.

HE HAS BEEN SAYING THAT WE'RE WINNING.

WE ARE DECIMATED ALL OUR ENEMIES AROUND US FROM IRAN TO LEBANON TO HAMAS, ET CETERA.

THEY'VE, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE SENT MISSILES TO QATAR, TO YEMEN, ET CETERA.

AND MANY SAY WELL, ACTUALLY, YEAH.

THERE IS A LOT OF TACTICAL SUCCESS.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS A PRICE WORTH PAYING OR REASON FOR A GOVERNMENT TO CLAIM A VICTORY?

>> NO.

AS I TOLD YOU, I THINK THIS VICTORY, AS HE CLAIM --I DON'T THINK IT'S A VICTORY.

THE PRICE THAT ISRAEL AND ISRAEL SOCIETY WILL PAY FOR THIS WAR WILL BE ENORMOUS.

AND IT WILL GO WITH US FOR YEARS AND DECADES TO COME.

IT WILL CHANGE THE FOUNDATIONS, THE DNA OF ISRAEL.

AND I DON'T THINK IT'S A PRICE WORTH PAYING.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU THIS -- >> I DON'T FEEL LIKE WE'RE UNDER VICTORY ON THE WAR IN GAZA.

>> YOU HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME ACTUALLY TALKING TO PALESTINIANS.

YOU TALK ABOUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.

WE'RE ALL BANNED.

YOU'RE BANNED, WE'RE BANNED, WE CAN'T GO INTO GAZA, WHICH IS TRULY A DISGRACE, AND WE PETITION EVERY TIME WE CAN TO GO IN.

BUT YOU HAVE MADE IT YOUR BUSINESS TO TRY TO TALK TO AS MANY GAZANS AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN BY VARIOUS METHODS.

YOU WROTE IN YOUR ARTICLE THAT YOU CHARACTERIZE RIGHT NOW GAZA AS GRAY AND RED.

THE GRAY ARE THE DESTRUCTION AND THE DUST THAT COVERS EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY, AND THE RED OF THE BLOOD AFTER ALL THESE ATTACKS AND ALL THESE, YOU KNOW, TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENS.

BUT YOU ALSO SHARE STORIES OF CONVERSATIONS WITH GAZANS, MOST NOTABLY YOU CALL FOR THE PEACE ABOUT THE DOCTORS, WITH THE DOCTORS AND WALKING THROUGH ON A VIDEO WAY THE HOSPITALS.

WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, THE DOCTORS, THE PEOPLE OF GAZA THROUGHOUT THESE LAST TWO YEARS OF WAR THERE?

>> YES.

AS YOU SAY, IT'S NOT VERY GOOD JOURNALISM TO COVER THIS WAR FROM FAR AWAY.

>> NO.

IT'S THE ONLY WAY WE CAN DO IT, NIR.

IT'S THE ONLY WAY WE CAN DO IT.

>> EXACTLY.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN DO IT.

AND WHEN YOU TRY TO REACH THE PEOPLE IN GAZA, THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, YOU FOUND OUT THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO TALK TO YOU, AND THEY'RE TELLING THEIR STORIES AND IT'S SOMETIMES VERY PAINFUL BUT VERY HUMAN IC .

THEY'RE TELLING THE HUMAN SIDE OF THIS WAR, AND, YEAH, WE, AS YOU MENTIONED, WE WENT TO FOR VIRTUAL TOO.

WE ASK OURSELVES, OKAY, THERE WAS THE DEBATE IN ISRAEL WHICH AROUND THE QUESTION OF STARVATION IN GAZA.

WHETHER THERE IS FAMINE IN GAZA OR ONLY A CAMPAIGN OF HAMAS' PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAID.

SO WE ASK OURSELVES, OKAY, WHAT CAN WE DO TO SOLVE THIS QUESTION.

AND WE REACH OUT TO AS MANY DOCTORS AS WE COULD IN GAZA AND ASK THEM TO TAKE US THROUGH A TOUR, A VIRTUAL TOUR TO OPEN A ZOOM AND TO WALK WITH US FROM ONE BED TO ANOTHER IN THE HOSPITAL AND SHOW US THE CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WHO SUFFERED FROM MALNUTRITIONS AND THAT WE CAN SPEAK WITH THEM, WE CAN SEE THEIR CONDITIONS.

AND IT WAS HORRIBLE.

>> YEAH.

>> I CANNOT --I CANNOT --THERE IS NO WORDS TO DESCRIBE WHAT WE SAW IN THIS VIRTUAL TOURS.

AND I THINK IF PEOPLE SAW WHAT I AND MY COLLEAGUES THAT WORK WITH ME ON THIS INVESTIGATIONS, IF PEOPLE SAW WHAT WE SAW, NO ONE WOULD ARGUE ABOUT THE QUESTION OF SALVATION AND FAMINE IN GAZA.

>> WE'VE JUST BEEN SHOWING THE IMAGES, SOME OF THE IMAGES YOU WERE ABLE TO CAPTURE BY TALKING TO THE DOCTORS.

AND IT'S TERRIBLY PAINFUL, AND IT'S PRETTY AMAZING THAT YOU'RE DOING THIS KIND OF WORK.

AND IT CAN'T BE EASY, AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU COMING ON AND TALKING TO US.

NIR HASSON FROM HAARETZ, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> >> NOW WE TURN TO THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE WHERE TENSION IS ESCALATING BETWEEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND VENEZUELA'S MADURO REGIME.

THE UNITED STATES HAS DEPLOYED WARSHIPS, FIGHTER PLANES AND AN ATTACK SUBMARINE TO THE REGION.

THE WHITE HOUSE LABELS PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO A NARCO- TERRORIST, CLAIMING HE CONTROLS ONE OF THE NATION'S CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS.

THE U. S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, THOUGH, REJECTS THAT CLAIM.

NOW, IF THE WHITE HOUSE IS LAYING THE GROUNDWORK FOR REGIME CHANGE IN VENEZUELA, THEY MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN INTERFERENCE IN THAT EMSPHERE FROM THE FAILED BAY OF PIGS IN CUBA IN 1961 THROUGH AN ABORTED COUP AGAINST HUGO CHAVEZ UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH.

AMERICAN MEDDLING TENDS TO CREATE LONG-TERM PROBLEMS AND WOULD VENEZUELA'S OPPOSITION WELCOME AMERICAN INTERVENTION?

DAVID SMOLANSKY WAS HEAD OF THE OPPOSITION CAMPAIGN LAST YEAR AND HE JOINS US FROM WASHINGTON, D. C. DAVID SMOLANSKY, I POSED A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND REMINDED THE AUDIENCE THAT IT'S NOT ALWAYS A SUCCESSFUL OR EVER SUCCESSFUL AMERICAN MILITARY INTERVENTION.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I THINK YOU AND YOUR PARTY ARE ACTUALLY WELCOMING IT.

>> WELL, I FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I SUPPORT THE DISMANTLE OF CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION, ACTUALLY A DRUG CARTEL THAT IS RUNNING MY COUNTRY FOR ALMOST 27 YEARS.

VENEZUELANS HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

ALMOST NINE MILLION VENEZUELANS HAVE FLED.

LARGEST MIGRATION CRISIS IN THE WORLD, EVEN SURPASSING UKRAINE AND SYRIA.

AND MADURO IS RESPONSIBLE TO GET TO THIS POINT, BECAUSE WE DECIDED A REGIME CHANGE LAST YEAR WHEN WE WON THE ELECTION 70- 30, AND WE PROVED THAT WITH THE VOTE AND TALLIES.

AND THE REACTION FROM THE REGIME WAS USING BRUTAL FORCE AND A DISAPPEARING THOUSANDS OF VENEZUELAN AND ILLEGALLY DETAINING 2,300 INNOCENT VENEZUELANS.

SO THAT'S THE SITUATION THAT WE'RE FACING RIGHT NOW.

>> SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ELECTION, WHICH WE COVERED.

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, THE OPPOSITION LEADER, SHE IS HIDING IN VENEZUELA.

SHE SAID ABOUT THIS TRUMP MOVE, "I TOTALLY SUPPORT HIS STRATEGY.

I'M IN FAVOR OF THE U. S. DISMANTLING THIS CRIMINAL STRUCTURE. "

SHE SAID THAT TO "THE TIMES. "

BUT OTHERS LIKEN RIKKE PRIETAS ARE AGAINST IT.

TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE A DIVIDED OPPOSITION.

THE MADURO PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY ARE AGAINST THIS, BE EVEN THE OPPOSITION.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU ALL AS YOU TRY I ASSUME TO HAVE SOME UNITY IN THE FIGHT AGAINST YOUR COMMON ENEMY.

>> CHRISTIANE, IF I CAN ASSURE SOMETHING AND ESPECIALLY TO ALL YOUR AUDIENCE IS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENT IS COMPLETELY UNITED.

WE HAVE A LEADER THAT WAS LEGITIMIZED IN A PRIMARY ELECTION A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, MARIA CORINA MACHADO, WHICH HAS BECOME A SYMBOL OF RESISTANCE BECAUSE SHE HAS BEEN IN HIDING FOR MORE THAN A YEAR BECAUSE MADURO WANT HER TO BE IN PRISON.

AND WE HAVE A PRESIDENT- ELECT, EDMUNDO GONZALEZ URRUTIA, THAT EVERY VENEZUELAN, AND INCLUDING DIFFERENT GOVERNMENTS RECOGNIZING AS THE RIGHTFUL LEADER OF MY COUNTRY.

SO WHAT WE WANT IS THAT WHAT VENEZUELANS DECIDED LAST YEAR, BE RESPECTED, AND I SUPPORT ANY PRESSURE THAT COMES FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE U. S. , LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, EUROPEAN UNION, BECAUSE WE ARE READY TO LEAD A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION IN VENEZUELA WHERE WE CAN CREATE CONDITIONS FOR VENEZUELANS TO GO BACK, WHERE WE CAN PROVIDE SECURITY, ACCESS TO JUSTICE, STRONG INSTITUTIONS.

HOW ABOUT DEMOCRACY AGAIN?

LIKE VENEZUELA HAD DURING THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY.

>> I JUST WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF AN INTERVIEW THAT I DID WITH MS.

MACHADO BEFORE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CAME IN.

SO THIS WAS LAST SUMMER.

THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT THE MADURO REGIME AND ITS LOSS OF LEGITIMACY.

>> THE REGIME IS IN ITS WEAKEST POSITION EVER.

THEY HAVE LOST TOTAL LEGITIMACY.

AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IS UNLEASH A CAMPAIGN OF TERROR, PERSECUTION.

SO WHAT THEY ARE GOING AGAINST ARE PEOPLE WHICH ARE RIGHT NOW IN HIDING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

BUT HE'S LOSING MORE AND MORE SUPPORT AND GETTING MORE AND MORE ISOLATED.

ON THE CONTRARY, WE NOW HAVE THE LEGITIMACY BECAUSE WE WON, AND THE WORLD RECOGNIZES THAT WE HAVE WON.

SO WE ARE CERTAINLY WILLING TO MOVE AHEAD INTO A NEGOTIATION PROCESS IN WHICH WE ARE WILLING TO LEAVE MADURO AND THE REGIME THE GUARANTEES SO THAT THESE COULD MOVE SMOOTHLY, ORDERLY, AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU, WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS NEGOTIATING PROCESS?

AND I DON'T JUST MEAN BETWEEN THE INTERNAL ACTORS, BUT ALSO AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HIS EMISSARY THERE WAS --I MEAN, THERE WAS SOME NEGOTIATIONS.

THERE WAS SOME MOVEMENT WAS TRYING TO GET, YOU KNOW, MADURO TO ACCEPT THESE REALITIES.

WHAT HAPPENED?

HOW COME IT SUDDENLY CHANGED AND NOW IT'S GONE TO FULL MILITARIZATION?

>> THE REALITY IS THAT MADURO AND THE DIFFERENT MEMBERS OF THESE DRUG CARTEL RUNNING VENEZUELA HAVE NEVER HAD HONEST INTENTION TO NEGOTIATE.

THEY HAVE USED DIALOGUES AND NEGOTIATIONS TO GAIN TIME TO DEMORALIZE PEOPLE, TO DIVIDE IN THE PAST THE DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENT AND TO FRACTURE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

MADURO MANY OPTIONS AND MANY OFFERS BEFORE THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS LAST YEAR.

DURING THE DAY OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND AFTER TWO LEAVE POWER PEACEFULLY.

AND HE DECIDED TO DO WHAT IS KNOWN IN VENEZUELA AS A KNOCK-KNOCK OPERATION.

WHAT IS A KNOCK-KNOCK OPERATION, IF I MAY EXPLAIN?

THEY GO TO YOUR HOUSE, THEY DO KNOCK-KNOCK, AND THEY KIDNAP INNOCENT VENEZUELANS AND THEY DISAPPEAR.

AS WE SPEAK, CHRISTIANE, AS WE SPEAK RIGHT NOW ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS FACT FINDING MISSION REPORT WHICH I HAVE HERE, INNOCENT WOMEN ARE SEXUALLY ABUSED BY SECURITY GUARDS OF THE REGIME.

TEENAGERS ARE SUFFERING FROM ELECTRIC SHOCKS.

DISSIDENTS ARE DISAPPEAR AND KILLED IN CUSTODY.

THAT'S WHERE VENEZUELANS FACING.

AND I CAN UNDERSTAND SOMETIMES BY INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE THAT THIS IS VERY DIFFICULT SOMETIMES TO LEARN, UNDERSTAND.

BUT WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THIS FOR 26 YEARS.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT MORE VENEZUELANS HAVE FLED MY COUNTRY THAN UKRAINE WHICH HAS BEEN BRUTALLY INVADED BY RUSSIA OR SYRIA.

AND I HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.

MADURO HAS BEEN ABLE TO STAY IN POWER BECAUSE OF THE SUPPORT OF EXTERNAL ACTORS.

RUSSIA, THE MAIN ARMS PROVIDER, IRAN THE SECOND ARMS PROVIDER, AND CUBA, WHO HAS BEEN IN VENEZUELA SINCE DAY ONE INFILTRATING THE COUNTRY INTERAGENCIES AND THE SECURITY FORCES, AND THEY'RE PART OF THE TORTURE AND REPRESSION AS WELL.

>> CLEARLY A LOT OF HORRENDOUS STUFF IS HAPPENING IN YOUR COUNTRY, AND WE'VE REPORTED AS MUCH AS WE CAN WHEN WE CAN GET JOURNALISTS IN THERE.

THE QUESTION I SUPPOSE AS WELL, YOU'VE SEEN THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN INTERVENTION HAS NOT BEEN POSITIVE FOR MANY, MANY IES IN IN LATIN AMERICA.

BUT MOST NOTABLY, IRAQ.

THAT WAS A QUESTION OF REGIME CHANGE THERE.

EVEN LIBYA.

ARE YOU NOT AFRAID OF THAT KIND OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE, THAT KIND OF BACKLASH?

EVEN MADURO TRIED TO UNITE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT FOREIGN AGGRESSION.

>> TOTALLY NOT.

FIRST OF ALL, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VENEZUELA WITH LIBYA AND AFGHANISTAN IS WE HAVE A HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY, ALMOST HALF OF A CENTURY WE LIVED IN DEMOCRACY.

AND WE HAVE LEGITIMATE LEADER ON MARIA CORINA MACHADO AND PRESIDENT-ELECT ED DONE MUNDO GONZALEZ.

AND THE LAST U. S. MILITARY INTERVENTION IN AMERICA HAPPENED 36 YEARS AGO IN PANAMA, WHICH BY THE WAY WAS SUCCESSFUL, AND BY THE WAY, THE GUY WHO WAS RUNNING PANAMA IN THAT MOMENT WAS A DRUG TRAFFICKER.

>> ON THAT NOTE, MR.

SMOLANSKY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

> >> TO NEXT, LET'S TURN TO LATIN AMERICAN EXPERT JUAN SEBASTION GONZALEZ WHO SERVED ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.

SO WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HEARD WHAT DAVID SMOLANSKY WAS SAYING, AND HE KIND OF WAS RIGHT ABOUT PANAMA.

I REMEMBER IT, 1989, GEORGE H. W. BUSH JUST BEFORE THE GULF WAR, AND IT WAS ALSO BASED AROUND THE IDEA OF NARCO TRAFFICKING.

TELL ME WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE.

>> FIRST, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I AGREE WITH WHAT A LOT OF WHAT DAVID SAID.

I THINK THE DIFFERENCE WITH PANAMA SPECIFICALLY IS THE UNITED STATES HAD A MILITARY BASE INSIDE OF PANAMA.

AND I THINK 20 OR 30,000 MARINES INSIDE OF THE COUNTRY.

NOT ONLY THAT, THE PANAMANIANS DID NOT HAVE A MILITARY.

THEY HAD MORE LIKE A NATIONAL GUARD.

I THINK IT'S APPLES TO ORANGES WHEN YOU REALLY SURVEY THE ENVIRONMENT INSIDE OF VENEZUELA, MAYBE CARACAS IS STABLE, BUT YOU HAVE ANOTHER CARTEL TREN DE ARAGUA IN THE EAST OF THE COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE THE LIBERATION ARMY IN THE WEST AND PSEUDO PARAMILITARY GROUPS THAT ARE SOMETIMES AND SOMETIMES NOT LOYAL TO THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT.

AND ANY TYPE OF U. S. INTERVENTION ESPECIALLY HAVING BOOTS ON THE GROUND IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE A CAUSE CELEBRE TO EVERY GROUP FIGHTING IN COLOMBIA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE HEMISPHERE FOR HALF A CENTURY.

IT'S EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE CARTELS.

I THINK THIS IS FAIRLY NEW, THIS TRYING TO USE THIS SPECIFIC CONSTITUTIONAL OR LEGAL PROVISION BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, CALLING THEM I THINK NARCO-TERRORISTS.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER THE U. S. HAS ANY EVIDENCE OF, YOU KNOW, VENEZUELA, MADURO SPECIFICALLY OF RUNNING THAT KIND OF OPERATION?

AND EQUALLY IMPORTANT, HOW MUCH OF THE BAD DRUGS COME FROM VENEZUELA INTO THE UNITED STATES?

>> CERTAINLY.

SO FIRST I WOULD SAY THE UNITED STATES HAS AMASSED A POWERFUL NAVAL PRESENCE IN THE CARIBBEAN.

I THINK ROUGHLY BY SOME ACCOUNTS ROUGHLY 10% OF ALL NAVAL ASSETS.

BUT THE DEPLOYMENT IS VASTLY DISPROPORTIONATE TO ANY COUNTER NARCOTICS MISSION.

SO THIS REALLY LOOKS, WALKS AND TALKS LIKE A REGIME CHANGE PREPARATION.

NOW WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING IS MERGING THE WAR ON TERROR WITH THE WAR ON DRUGS.

AND THERE ARE SOME LEGAL QUESTIONS AROUND THAT, ESPECIALLY AROUND THE UNILATERAL USE OF FORCE AGAINST ALLEGED TRAFFICKERS.

I SERVED IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THIS IS A QUESTION THAT WE'VE ASKED IN EVERY SINGLE --FROM EVERY SINGLE ANGLE FROM THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, FROM THE OPPOSITION.

THERE IS DRUG TRAFFICKING INSIDE OF VENEZUELA.

BUT VENEZUELA IS PRIMARILY A TRANSSHIPMENT POINT.

IF THE UNITED STATES WAS VERY SERIOUS ABOUT COMBATTING DRUG TRAFFICKING, FOR ONE, THEY WOULD GIVE ALL THE MONEY THEY'RE SPENDING ON THE NAVY TO THE COAST GUARD, WHICH HAS THE LEGAL AUTHORITIES, THE TRAINING AND THE NETWORK OF RELATIONSHIPS IN THE CARIBBEAN TO NOT JUST INTERDICT.

THEY WOULD BE FOCUSED ON THE PACIFIC WHERE 75% OF THE COCAINE THAT ENTERS THE UNITED STATES TRANSITS FROM, NOT THE 5% THAT ACTUALLY GOES THROUGH VENEZUELA.

SO THIS IS NOT A COUNTERNARCOTICS OPERATION.

NOW SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO MADURO, THE TREN DE ARAGUA DESIGNATION IS A ORGANIZATION WITH NICOLAS MADURO AS ITS HEAD.

I'M NOT GOING TO DEFEND NICOLAS MADURO, BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS A KIND OF COMMAND AND CONTROL STRUCTURE THAT IS LED BY MADURO.

THESE ARE USUALLY OFFICIALS IN THE MILITARY OR OTHER PARTS OF THE REGIME THAT ARE IMPLICATED IN DRUG TRAFFICKING.

YES, THERE IS, IT'S A TRANSSHIPMENT COUNTRY, BUT THE REASON THAT DRUGS HAVE NEVER ORIGINATED FROM VENEZUELA IN THE WAY THAT THEY'VE ORIGINATED FROM COLOMBIA, OVER 95% OF THE COCAINE THAT COMES TO THE UNITED STATES COMES FROM COLOMBIA IS BECAUSE VENEZUELA HAS ONE OF THE LARGEST OIL RESERVES, GOLD RESERVES.

SO THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A NEED FOR THEM TO DEVELOP A NATIVE DRUG-PRODUCING INDUSTRY.

>> SO ON THAT POINT, YOU SAY REGIME CHANGE, BUT WHAT'S THE BIG PICTURE FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

IS IT BECAUSE IT'S A PETRO STATE AND THAT'S VALUABLE?

IS IT ABOUT DOMINANCE AS EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT OH MY GOODNESS, IS TRUMP GOING TO DIVIDE THE WORLD INTO SPHERES OF INFLUENCE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE STRATEGIC IMPETUS BEHIND THIS?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF TACTICS IN SEARCH OF A STRATEGY.

THESE TACTICS ARE CONTRADICTORY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY'RE TRYING TO ELIMINATE PROTECTED STATUS.

THE COURTS ARE PUSHING BACK ON THAT FOR VENEZUELANS.

THEY'RE VIOLATING THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF VENEZUELANS BY DEPORTING THEM TO EL SALVADOR, SECOT.

THEY ALLOWED CHEVRON TO ACTUALLY EXTRACT PETROLEUM FROM THE COUNTRY.

SO IT'S UNCLEAR WHETHER THIS ADMINISTRATION ACTUALLY HAS A STRATEGY.

THE CONCERN WITH THAT IS THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO GO BEYOND A NAVAL DEPLOYMENT IN THE CARIBBEAN.

I THINK THE LOGICAL NEXT STEP IN AN ESCALATION IS THAT THEY LOB SOME OF THOSE 250 TOMAHAWK MISSILES THAT SHEA HAVE AT THE NATIONAL LIBERATION ARMY SAFE HAVENS IN THE WEST OF THE COUNTRY, MAYBE SOME CLANDESTINE AIRPORT LANDING STRIPS.

ONCE YOU GET INTO MIRAFLORES, THE SITUATION BECOMES MUCH MORE COMPLICATED.

LOOK, I AGREE WITH DAVID THAT NICOLAS MADURO LOST THE ELECTION.

HE HAS BEEN IN POWER SINCE 2013.

AND BECAUSE OF MISMANAGEMENT, MASSIVE CORRUPTION, AND YES, U. S. SANCTIONS, THE ECONOMY IS DECIMATED, AND THEY'VE HAD TO MAINTAIN CONTROL, INCLUDING THROUGH ELECTION TAMPERING, THEY'VE LOST ELECTIONS, REFUSED TO CONCEDE THE RESULTS.

BUT TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF EDMUNDO GONZALEZ AS THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO REQUIRE 18, 19, 20-YEAR- OLD MARINES IN THE COUNTRY AND THAT IS THE RECIPE FOR A LONG CONFLICT.

>> AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT THAT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST AND WHAT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE IN VENEZUELA.

YOU PERSONALLY LED TALKS FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAT EASED SANCTIONS, SECURED THE RELEASE OF SOME AMERICAN HOSTAGES, POLITICAL PRISONERS.

AS YOU SAID, MADURO STOLE THE ELECTION.

SO THE QUESTION IS THERE ANY WAY TO NEGOTIATE WITH THIS PERSON?

YOU KNOW THAT.

RICK GRINNEL, WHO IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ENVOY TO VENEZUELA ON THIS ISSUE WAS DOING SOME I THINK DIPLOMACY AT THE BEGINNING, AND THEN THAT STOPPED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS BEEN THE TURNING POINT?

WHAT CHANGED THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL HERE FOR THE ADMINISTRATION?

>> CERTAINLY.

WELL, YEAH, WE DID ENGAGE IN NEGOTIATIONS.

I THINK ONE OF THE SUCCESSES OF THE NEGOTIATIONS WAS THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTIONS WHICH CLEARLY ELECTED EDMUNDO GONZALEZ.

IT CREATED A DEMOCRATIC OPENING.

BUT CERTAINLY NICOLAS MADURO DID NOT RESPECT THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.

I THINK STILL A NEGOTIATION CHANNEL IS KEY.

I THINK THE APPROACH, THE SMART LOGICAL AND STRATEGIC APPROACH IS TO HAVE CONDITIONAL SANCTIONS RELIEF, YOU KNOW, THAT IS TIED TO CLEAR OUTCOMES THERE SHOULD BE A CHANNEL FOR DIALOGUE.

IF WE LOOK AT ANY SORT OF SIMILAR PROCESSES AROUND THE WORLD, THERE HAS TO BE A CHANNEL FOR DIALOGUE.

AND CERTAINLY WHAT IS THE MADURO GOVERNMENT OR REGIME IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE NORMAL PUTS AND TAKES OF A NEGOTIATION WITH A STATE BECAUSE THERE ARE CRIMINAL ELEMENTS.

THERE IS THE INFLUENCE OF CHINA, RUSSIA, AND IRAN.

BUT THE UNITED STATES HAS TO REALLY I THINK INVEST IN THE LONG- TERM AND TRY TO PROMOTE A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION IN THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE SEEN I THINK VENEZUELA'S USEFUL TO LOOK AT FROM THE CONTEXT OF MAYBE POST SOVIET TRANSITIONS WHERE COUNTRIES LIKE POLAND ARE STILL TRANSITIONING.

THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE AN EASY SOLUTION TO VENEZUELA.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A CHANNEL FOR DIALOGUE, BUT THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO PUT PRESSURE ON.

I THINK THERE IS ALSO A FAILURE HEE OF THE GOVERNMENTS OF LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN THAT HAVE LARGELY STAYED SILENT.

I THINK THEY WOULD BE WISE TO ACTUALLY ORGANIZE AND TRY TO PRESSURE MADURO TO CEDE CONTROL OR MAKE CONCESSIONS TO AVOID THE UNITED STATES ESCALATING.

>> IT'S REALLY INTEREST.

JUAN SEBASTION GONZALEZ, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> >> NEXT, BUILD, BABY, BUILD, AS THEY SAY.

THAT IS THE WHITE HOUSE'S SILICON VALLEY SLOGAN, URGING COMPANIES TO INVEST IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE INFRASTRUCTURE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE CAMPAIGN HAS SO FAR BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, WITH TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FUNNELED INTO DATA CENTERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

BUT WHILE THESE INVESTMENTS MAY APIECE PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEY ARE CAUSING MAJOR ISSUES FOR SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES AS WELL AS FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

HANNAH BECKLER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER AT "BUSINESS INSIDER" JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS HER FINDINGS.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

HANNAH BECKLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAD A RECENT INVESTIGATION IN "BUSINESS INSIDER" TITLED "EXPOSING THE DARK SIDE OF AMERICA'S DATA CENTER EXPLOSION. "

WHAT SURPRISED YOU ABOUT THIS INVESTIGATION?

>> SURE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I THINK WE HAVE ALL OF THESE BIG TECH COMPANIES WHO ARE RACING TO BUILD OUT INTO THE FUTURE FOCUSED ON AI.

BUT THE IMPACTS THAT ARE HAPPENING ON OUR COMMUNITIES, OUR WATER, OUR ELECTRICITY GRIDS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

SO WHAT WE REALLY WANTED TO INVESTIGATE IS WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND, WHAT'S GOING ON, AND HOW RESOURCE INTENSIVE IS THIS BUILD- OUT.

>> YOU KNOW, FOR OUR AUDIENCE, UNLESS THEY'RE WATCHING THIS CONVERSATION LIVE OVER THE AIR SO TO SPEAK, EVEN THE YOUTUBE ARCHIVE OF THIS IS PART OF WHAT IS STORED IN THE DATA CENTER, RIGHT?

GIVE US AN UNDERSTANDING, I GUESS, OF WHAT THESE ARE AND WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THESE VERSION ALL OF THE AI-FOCUSED DATA CENTERS THAT ARE COMING IN THE FUTURE VERSUS THE ONES WE'RE FAMILIAR WITH TODAY.

>> SO THE FIRST THING TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT A LOT OF THE DATA CENTERS THERE USED FOR THINGS LIKE SOCIAL MEDIA, OUR EMAILS, OUR APPLICATIONS THAT WE'RE USING EVERY DAY.

SO ALL OF THAT DOESN'T REALLY EXIST IN A CLOUD.

IT EXISTS IN DATA CENTERS WHICH ARE THESE BIG WAREHOUSES FULL OF SERVERS THAT ARE SORT OF PROCESSING ALL OF THAT INFORMATION, ALL THAT DATA ALL THE TIME.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT DATA CENTERS THAT ARE BUILT TO PROCESS AI IS THEY ARE EVEN MORE POWER INTENSIVE.

SO THEY REQUIRE SERVERS THAT ARE JUST MANY MANIFOLD HIGHER INTENSIVE THAN WHAT WE'RE SEEING.

SO WE'RE SEEING A HUGE ESCALATION IN HOW MUCH ELECTRICITY THESE DATA CENTERS ARE USING.

>> OKAY.

AND WHERE DOES THAT ELECTRICITY USUALLY COME FROM?

IF SOMEBODY PUTS ONE OF THESE DATA CENTER WAREHOUSES INTO A COMMUNITY, WHAT ARE THEY PLUGGING INTO GET THAT POWER?

>> THEY'RE PLUGGING RIGHT INTO THE ELECTRICITY GRID, JUST THE SAME AS OUR HOUSES AND SMALL BUSINESSES, THAT SORT OF THING.

BUT I THINK WHAT WE'RE REALLY SEEING IS THAT IN ORDER TO HANDLE THE SORT OF EXTREME POWER LOAD, THEY'RE OFTEN NEEDING TO BUILD SPECIALIZED TRANSMISSION LINES, LARGE SCALE INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT THAT KIND OF POWER.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS UTILITIES SORT OF DEMOCRATIZING THOSE EXPENSES ACROSS ALL THE RATE PAYERS.

IT'S NOT JUST THE DATA CENTER, IT'S OUR HOUSES AND OUR SMALL BUSINESSES WHO ARE PAYING A LITTLE BIT MORE TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THAT KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> OKAY.

AND IF EVERYBODY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, SO TO SPEAK, IS PAYING FOR THE NEW TRANSMISSION LINE TO KEEP THAT DATA CENTER ALIVE AND OUR BILLS GO UP, I'M ASSUMING SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES ARE PUSHING BACK?

>> THEY ARE.

WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME PUSH BACK.

GEORGIA AND VIRGINIA IN PARTICULAR.

VIRGINIA A FILING FROM DOMINION, WHICH IS THE LARGEST UTILITY COMPANY IN VIRGINIA SORT OF ESTIMATED THAT VIRGINIA RATE PAYERS COULD BE PAYING AS MUCH AS 50% MORE ON THEIR ELECTRICITY BILL IN ORDER TO SUPPORT OF SUPPORT BROAD EXPANSION OF THE ELECTRICITY GRID IN VIRGINIA.

WE'RE STARTING TO SEE PUSHBACK.

WE'RE STARTING TO SEE RESIDENTS SAY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, WHAT DOES THIS LOOK LIKE, AND REGULATORS ARE STARTING TO TAKE NOTICE AS WELL.

>> IN RESPONSE TO YOUR INVESTIGATION, AMAZON, MICROSOFT, AND GOOGLE TOLD "BUSINESS INSIDER" THAT THEY WERE COMMITTED TO PAYING THEIR FULL SHARE FOR UPGRADES TO GRID INFRASTRUCTURE LIKE HIGH VOLTAGE POWER LINES.

THAT THE CASE FOR THE 1200 DATA CENTERS THAT ARE OUT THERE?

BECAUSE THESE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THE COMPANIES.

ARE THERE COMPANIES AND MUNICIPALITIES WITH ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT POLICIES AND EXPECTATIONS?

>> I THINK THOSE COMPANIES REALLY DOMINATE ELECTRICITY USE NATIONWIDE.

SO IT'S MEANINGFUL THAT THEY ARE AT LEAST SAYING THAT THEY ARE COMMITTED TO PAYING THEIR FULL FAIR SHARE.

THE PROBLEM IS WHEN WE LOOK AT THE ACTUAL REGULATORY FILINGS, WE'RE STILL SEEING A NUMBER OF DATA CENTERS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS ONE IN GEORGIA RECENTLY, QTS FACILITY.

AND THEY'RE SUBMITTING REGULATORY FILINGS ASKING FOR A $300 MILLION TRANSMISSION LINE THAT'S BEING BUILT OUT THERE.

AND THAT COST WILL BE DISPLACED AGAINST ALL THE RATE PAYERS IN THAT AREA.

SO IT CAN BE REALLY DIFFICULT TO MEASURE THESE THINGS AND EXACTLY HOW MUCH DATA CENTERS ARE ACTUALLY PAYING FOR THE MASSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE BUILD- OUT THAT IS REQUIRED TO SUPPORT THEIR ELECTRICITY LOAD.

>> OKAY.

GIVE US AN IDEA OF HOW WIDESPREAD THIS IS.

I KNOW IN YOUR STORY, YOU GUYS HAD A MAP, AND THERE WERE A LOT OF LITTLE DOTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

>> SO I THINK WHAT IS REALLY STRIKING, AROUND 2010 WE WERE SEEING ABOUT 311 DATA CENTERS.

THAT WAS NATIONWIDE.

BY THE END OF LAST YEAR, THAT NUMBER HAD NEARLY QUADRUPLED TO 1,240 DATA CENTERS.

IT'S A MASSIVE EXPANSION IN PRETTY SHORT AMOUNTS OF TIME.

AND THEY'RE MOSTLY CONCENTRATED IN VIRGINIA.

BUT WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME BUT WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME OTHER HOT SPOTS.

IN MARICOPA COUNTY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ARIZONA, OR IN THE CENTRAL OHIO AREA.

>> OKAY.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT ARIZONA, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AUTOMATICALLY AN ALARM BELL GOES OFF FOR ME IS KIND OF THE WATER TABLE THERE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT IT'S NOT JUST ELECTRICITY THAT THESE DATA CENTERS USE, BUT THEY ALSO USE WATER.

HOW SO?

>> SO IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR SERVERS RUNNING, YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM COOL.

THEY'RE RUNNING 24/7, SO THEY GET REALLY, REALLY HOT.

THEY GENERATE A LOT OF HEAT.

YOU NEED SOMETHING TAKING AWAY THAT EXCESS HEAT.

A COMMON SYSTEM IS TO USE FRESH DRINKING WATER TO RUN IT THROUGH THE DATA CENTER AND COOL OFF THE SERVERS.

SO SOME OF THE VERY, VERY LARGEST FACILITIES THAT ARE BEING BUILT IN PLACES LIKE ARIZONA, WE'RE ALREADY SEEING EXTREME WATER STRESS AND A LOT OF DROUGHT.

AND THEY'RE COMPETING DIRECTLY WITH RESIDENTS THERE BECAUSE THEY'RE USING FRESH DRINKING WATER TO BE ABLE TO COOL THOSE SERVERS.

>> WHAT'S THE INCENTIVE THAT TOWNS AND MUNICIPALITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY HAVE TO TRY TO LURE THE DATA CENTERS IN?

I'M ASSUMING THERE IS A BENEFIT, THAT THEY'RE SAYING OKAY, WE WANT THIS DATA CENTER IN OUR AREA.

>> SO WHAT WE FOUND IS A COUPLE --THREE DOZEN STATES HAVE STATE LEVEL SORT OF INCENTIVES WHERE THEY'RE GIVING SORT OF 100% SALES AND TAX ABATEMENTS TO DATA CENTERS WHICH IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT THAT IS GOING INTO BUILDING THESE CENTERS.

AND THEN ON TOP OF, THAT MUNICIPALITIES OR COUNTIES ARE ALSO OFFERING SIGNIFICANT INCENTIVES FOR DATA CENTERS.

SO THEY'RE SAYING YOU CAN GET 100% PROPERTY TAX ABATEMENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR 15 YEARS, WHICH IS REALLY STRIKING.

WHAT DATA CENTERS ARE SAYING, AND THEIR OPERATORS ARE SAYING THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THESE AREAS TO SORT OF TRANSFORM THEIR ECONOMIES INTO HIGH-TECH ECONOMIES WHERE THERE IS LOTS OF HIGH-PAYING JOBS.

THE REALITY WE FOUND IS 80% OF DATA CENTER JOBS ARE IN THEIR CONSTRUCTION.

AND ONCE THEY'RE ACTUALLY FULLY BUILT, YOU'RE ONLY SEEING MAYBE AS FEW AS 25 FULL-TIME PERMANENT JOBS AT EACH FACILITY.

SO THEY DON'T REALLY EMPLOY THAT MANY WORKERS.

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THIS, YOU HAD TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH ELECTRICITY THESE DATA CENTERS WERE GOING TO BE USING.

HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

>> COMPLICATED.

SO MANY OF THESE OPERATORS, THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TO DISCLOSE HOW MUCH POWER THEIR FLEET OF DATA CENTERS IS USING AT ANY ONE TIME.

SO WE ACTUALLY FOLLOWED OUR OWN METHODOLOGY, WHICH WE DEVELOPED IN VERY CLOSE CONSULTATION WITH MANY ACADEMICS, ENGINEERS, AND INDUSTRY INSIDERS.

SO WE USED THE AIR PERMITS.

SO THESE ARE REGULATORY PERMITS THAT ARE ISSUED TO THE BACKUP GENERATORS EACH CENTER HAS.

DATA CENTERS CAN NEVER BE WITHOUT POWER.

THEY'RE ALWAYS BUILT WITH THE BACKUP DIESEL GENERATORS, AND THOSE ARE A POINT OF POLLUTION.

SO THEY'RE REGULATED BY STATES OF ENVIRONMENT.

SO WE WENT AND REQUESTED FROM ALL 50 STATES AND D. C. FOR THOSE PERMITS ISSUED TO DATA CENTER BACKUP GENERATORS.

SO IT'S A BIT OF A COUPLE- STEP PROCESS HERE.

BUT THAT'S HOW WE WERE ABLE TO EXTRAPOLATE OUR ESTIMATE ELECTRICITY USE IS WE ADDED UP THE AMOUNT OF POWER THOSE GENERATORS ARE ABLE TO PRODUCE.

WE APPLIED SORT OF A REDUNDANCY ESTIMATE.

SO YOU ALWAYS BUILD MORE GENERATORS THAN YOU ACTUALLY USE, AND THEN ESTIMATED THE AMOUNT OF WHAT'S CALLED CAPACITY, WHICH IS HOW MUCH, YOU KNOW, POWER OR HOW MUCH USE ARE THOSE SERVERS RUNNING AT ANY ONE TIME.

SOMEWHAT COMPLICATED, BUT WE'RE ABLE TO ESTIMATE A RANGE OF WHAT THESE DATA CENTER --WE ESTIMATE THEIR ELECTRICITY USE IS.

>> AND PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE FOR US.

HOW MUCH POWER ARE DATA CENTERS GOING TO BE DRAWING IN THE UNITED STATES IF ALL OF THESE COME ON LINE?

>> SO BY THE END OF 2024, IF ALL OF THOSE PERMITTED DATA CENTERS ARE BUILT AND CONSTRUCTED AND COME ONLINE, WE'RE ESTIMATING THAT THEIR POWER USE IN TOTAL COULD BE AS MUCH AS OHIO, THE ENTIRE STATE OF OHIO USED IN 2023 ON THE LOW END.

AND ON THE HIGH END, IT COULD BE AS MUCH AS FLORIDA USED IN 2023.

SO IT'S A REALLY MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF POWER.

A FEDERAL ESTIMATE ACTUALLY PUTS THAT FAR HIGHER.

SO BY 2028, THEY ESTIMATE THAT DATA CENTERS COULD BE USING AS MUCH AS 600 TERRA WATT HOURS OF ELECTRICITY EACH YEAR, WHICH IS 12% OF WHAT THE U. S. USES EACH YEAR.

SO IT WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF POWER.

>> THERE WAS A STUDY THAT WAS ESTIMATING THAT AI- DRIVEN DATA CENTERS COULD CONSUME 1.

7 TRILLION GALLONS OF WATER EVERY YEAR BY 2027 AROUND THE WORLD.

IN OREGON, THERE WAS A LOCAL NEWSPAPER THAT FOUND THAT THE GOOGLE DATA CENTERS IN THE DALLES HAD USED 355 MILLION GALLONS.

THEY PUT IT IN THE CONTEXT OF ROUGHLY 500 OLYMPIC- SIZED SWIMMING POOLS.

IT'S JUST - - I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE SCALE OF THE KINDS OF WATER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OR THE SCALE OF THE KINDS OF ELECTRICITY.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU TALK TO DIFFERENT RESEARCHERS, HOW CONCERNED WERE THEY?

>> VERY CONCERNED.

SO SOMETHING THAT WE IDENTIFIED IS THAT AS MANY AS 43% OF DATA CENTERS, AND THESE ARE OUR LARGEST DATA CENTERS, ARE CONSTRUCTED IN AREAS WHERE WE'RE ALREADY SEEING EXTREME WATER STRESS.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH AVAILABLE WATER FOR THE RESIDENTS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE.

I THINK WHAT'S ALSO REALLY UNIQUE ABOUT DATA CENTERS, UNLIKE OTHER WATER INTENSIVE INDUSTRIES, DATA CENTERS ARE USING DRINKING WATER.

SO THAT MEANS, AGAIN, THAT THEY ARE COMPETING DIRECTLY WITH RESIDENTS WHO ARE NEED THAT DRINKING WATER TO JUST SURVIVE IN THE DESERT, FOR EXAMPLE.

SOME OF THESE DATA CENTERS THAT ARE BUILT IN MARICOPA, IT'S IN THE DESERT.

SO WATER IS A PRECIOUS AND FINITE RESOURCE.

>> WHO OWNS MOST OF THE DATA CENTERS THAT ARE COMING OUT?

HOW DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?

>> SO SOMETIMES THE PERMITS ARE ISSUED DIRECTLY TO THE COMPANY.

IT'S VERY CLEAR, YOU KNOW.

BUT IN MANY CASES, THEY ARE ISSUED TO SHELL LLCs.

SO WE HAD SPENT A LOT OF TIME LOOKING AT OTHER REGULATORY FILINGS BOTH AT THE STATE AND FEDERAL LEVEL TO SORT OF MATCH THOSE LLCs TO THEIR PARENT COMPANY.

ONCE WE DID THAT, IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR.

THE MOST DATA CENTERS ARE OPERATED BY AMAZON.

SO BY THE END OF 2024, THEY HAD 177 DATA CENTERS BY OUR COUNT.

AND THEN WE LOOKED AT, AGAIN, HOW POWER INTENSIVE THESE DATA CENTERS ARE.

AND THE TOP FIVE PROBABLY WON'T SURPRISE MOST PEOPLE.

THEY'RE THE BIG, BIG TECH COMPANIES THAT ARE INVESTING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO DATA CENTER EXPANSION.

BUT IT'S AMAZON, GOOGLE, MICROSOFT, META, AND QTS.

>> MICROSOFT.

THEY SAID THEY REMAIN COMMITTED TO DEVELOPING AND SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE SOLUTIONS TO REDUCE EMISSIONS, FOCUSING ON LONG- TERM SOLUTIONS.

AMAZON, WHICH YOU MENTIONED, THEY SAID THEY AIM TO REACH NET-ZERO CARBON EMISSIONS ACROSS OUR OPERATIONS BY 2040.

META SAID THEY'RE COMMITTED TO FOSTERING THE LONG-TERM VITALITY OF THE COMMUNITIES WHERE THEY OPERATE.

QTS, WHICH IS A COMPANY THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVEN'T HEARD OF, BUT THAT OWNS A LOT OF THESE DATA CENTERS AS YOU POINT OUT, SAID 100% OF QTS CENTERS CONSTRUCTED SINCE 2018 CONSUME NO WATER FOR COOLING.

AND GOOGLE SAID THEY REDUCED THEIR DATA CENTER ENERGY EMISSIONS BY 12% IN 2024, DESPITE SIGNIFICANT GROWTH IN ELECTRICITY DEMAND.

YOU SPOKE TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE THAT WERE KIND OF LIVING IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THESE DATA CENTERS ARE COMING NOW OR THEY'RE PLANNING TO COME.

WHAT WERE THE CONCERNS THAT THEY HAD, AS I GUESS NEIGHBORS?

>> WHAT YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE IS THESE FACILITIES ARE FIRST OF ALL, THEY'RE ENORMOUS.

MANY OF THEM ARE VERY, VERY LARGE.

THEY OPERATE 24/7.

SO WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THEY HAVE THESE LARGE INDUSTRIAL COOLING FANS THAT ARE OPERATION CONSTANTLY.

AND THOSE FANS ARE LOUD.

THEY EMIT A LOUD BUZZING DRONING NOISE THAT'S SO LOUD THAT WHEN WE SPOKE TO SOME RESIDENTS WHO THEIR HOUSES ARE BUILT JUST A COUPLE OF HUNDRED FEET AWAY, THAT CONSTANT NOISE IS SHAKING THEIR WINDOWS.

ONE RESIDENT TOLD US THAT HE HAD TO MOVE HIS FAMILY INTO THE BASEMENT IN ORDER TO TRY TO ESCAPE THE NOISE TO BE ABLE TO SLEEP.

SO IT'S SORT OF AN OMNIPRESENT FIXTURE OF THEIR LIVES NOW.

>> IN RESPONSE TO ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU WERE TALKING TO IN YOUR STORY, AMAZON SAID "WE SAW A MEANINGFUL REDUCTION IN THE NOISE FROM THE IMPROVEMENTS. "

BASICALLY, MUFFLERS ON FANS, TALLER EXHAUST FANS, AND THEY'RE NOW OPERATING WELL BELOW ORDINANCE.

CONSIDERING WE'RE HEADING INTO A FUTURE THAT SEEMS TO INCLUDE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, WHY SHOULD I GUESS GENERAL AMERICANS BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS KIND OF ABSTRACT NOTION THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THESE LARGER INFRASTRUCTURE COSTS?

BECAUSE MOST OF US ARE JUST GETTING USED TO OH, HEY, LOOK, I CAN JUST DO THIS GREAT LITTLE SEARCH ON MY PHONE, AND IT WORKS.

SO I DON'T KNOW HAVE A DATA CENTER NEXT TO ME.

WHY SHOULD I CARE?

>> I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A DRAMATIC EXPANSION IN DATA CENTERS THAT ARE ALREADY HAVING A DRAMATIC IMPACT ON, AGAIN, OUR GRIDS, OUR ELECTRICITY, THE ENVIRONMENT, THE CLEAN AIR THAT WE ENJOY AND THE CLEAN DRINKING WATER NEAR OUR COMMUNITIES.

SO MANY OF THESE COMPANIES, AGAIN, ARE POURING HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT MAY AMOUNT TO AS MUCH AS A TRILLION DOLLARS IN CAPITAL EXPENDITURES IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS ALONE.

SO THE KIND OF BUILD-OUT THAT WE'RE SEEING IS ON A SCALE THAT WE FRANKLY HAVE NEVER REALLY SEEN BEFORE IN THIS COUNTRY.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE REALLY EQUATED IT TO SOMETHING LIKE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION OR HOW THE RAILROADS WERE EXPANDED ACROSS THE U. S. SO WE'RE SEEING A HUGE AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT IN SOMETHING THAT, AGAIN, REMAINS TO BE SEEN IF IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO PAY OFF.

IT'S INCREDIBLY SPECULATIVE.

THE BIG TECH COMPANIES ARE BETTING BIG ON THAT SPECULATIVE FUTURE BUILT ON AI.

AGAIN, THE IMPACTS, THOUGH, ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE SEEING HOW UTILITIES ARE MOVING AWAY FROM PLANNED GREEN ENERGY SUCH AS SOLAR AND WIND POWER TO KEEP MORE SORT OF COAL-FIRED PLANTS OR NATURAL GAS- FIRED PLANTS RUNNING.

AGAIN, IT'S GOING TO HAVE A REALLY OUTSIZED IMPACT ON CLIMATE CHANGE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND IT'S ALSO HAVING IMPACT, AGAIN, ON OUR WATER, WHERE WE LIVE, OUR COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE AS THESE CONTINUE TO BE EXPANDED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> WHAT IS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT TO TRY TO REGULATE THIS?

MAYBE GIVE US SOME PERSPECTIVE FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION TO THE NEXT OR AS THESE PROJECTS KEEP ROLLING OUT, IS THERE REGULATION SOMEWHERE THAT WE SHOULD LOOK AT AS A MODEL?

IS THERE REGULATION THAT'S FAILING SOMEWHERE THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO AVOID?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN INTERESTING TO LOOK AT IT HISTORICALLY.

SO WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT 2017, FOR EXAMPLE, SOME OF THESE VERY GIANT DATA CENTERS ARE GOING INTO OHIO.

OHIO REGULATORS ARE ALLOWING THE UTILITY, FOR EXAMPLE, TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY CALL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT RATES.

SO MEANING THAT A COMPANY LIKE META MIGHT ACTUALLY PAY A CHEAPER ELECTRICITY RATE TO KIND OF BUILD THEIR DATA CENTER.

YOU GO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE IN 2017 TO AS RECENTLY AS THIS YEAR, WE'RE SEEING REGULATORS ACTUALLY THINK ACTUALLY, WE NEED TO ADD ADDITIONAL RIDERS ON TO THE CENTER TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE FOR THE TRANSITION COST, THAT WE'RE NOT DISPLACING THE COSTS ON TO RESIDENTS AND SMALL BUSINESSES IN THE NEARBY AREAS, THAT DATA CENTERS ARE PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE FOR ELECTRICITY COSTS.

SO WE ARE STARTING TO SEE SOME REGULATORY EFFORTS TAKING PLACE IN OHIO, VIRGINIA AND GEORGIA.

IT KIND OF REMAINS TO BE SEEN IF THOSE SAME REGULATIONS ARE ADOPTED NATIONWIDE.

>> IS THIS JUST THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN A FUTURE WITH AI?

>> GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT NONE OF US REALLY KNOW.

SO MUCH OF THIS, AGAIN, SPECULATIVE.

WE'RE NOT SEEING THE PAYOUT THAT WE EXPECT TO SEE IN ECONOMIES OR HOW IT'S TRANSFORMING SORT OF OUR WORK LIFE IN THE SAME WAY THAT SOME OF THESE BIG TECH COMPANIES ARE PROMISING.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING, THOUGH, IS A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN HOW OUR ELECTRICITY IS PRODUCED, HOW THE IMPACT ON THE ENVIRONMENT IS, OUR ELECTRICITY COSTS, THE AMOUNT OF CLEAN WATER WE HAVE.

SO I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO REALLY THINK YEAH, MAYBE THIS IS THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS IF WE WANT THIS FUTURE BUILT ON AI.

BUT IS THAT COST TOO HIGH.

>> INVESTIGATOR REPORTER WITH "BUSINESS INSIDER" HANNAH BECKLER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND FINALLY, WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SILICON VALLEY TURN THEIR BACK ON THE CLIMATE, CHILEAN SCIENTISTS STUDYING IN THE WORLD'S DRIEST DESERT, ATACAMA, HAVE MADE A BREAKTHROUGH THAT COULD SOLVE WORSENING DROUGHT ISSUES.

THE KEY, A SMALL RESILIENT FLOWER THAT BLOOMS DURING RARE RAINFALL EVENTS.

MANY STUDIES HAVE SUGGESTED CHILE'S DROUGHTS COULD REACH EXTREME LEVELS BY 2050.

BUT IT APPEARS THIS UNSUSPECTING PLANT HOLDS THE GENETIC CLUES CAPABLE OF HELPING CROPS WITHSTAND EXTREME CONDITIONS AND CREATE LONG-TERM AGRICULTURAL SUSTAINABILITY.

WELL, WHAT A GOOD NEWS STORY.

AND IT'S BEEN A POSITIVE WEEK FOR THE CLIMATE AFTER IT WAS ANNOUNCED THAT HISTORY HAS BEEN MADE BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, RENEWABLE ENERGY GENERATED MORE ELECTRICITY THAN COAL THIS YEAR.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.