Pulitzer Prize Winner on Trump Climate Policy & Bill Gates’ Climate Reversal

>> NOW THE COP30 CLIMATE CONFERENCE IS WHERE WORLD LEADERS TRY TO HAMMER OUT SOLUTIONS TO THE GROWING CLIMATE CRISIS.

THIS YEAR THE UNITED STATES ALSO BOYCOTTED THAT GATHERING.

IN BELEM, BRAZIL, THE PAST TWO WEEKS HAVE SEEN INDIGENOUS PROTESTERS MARCHING FOR BETTER PROTECTIONS FOR THEIR OWN TERRITORIES AND THOUSANDS OF YOUTH ACTIVISTS ACROSS THE WORLD CALLING FOR FOSSIL FUEL PHASE-OUTS WITH MANY SAYING OUR FUTURE IS BEING BURNT DOWN.

THE PULITZER PRIZEWINNING JOURNALIST ELIZABETH KOLBERT HAS BEEN COVERING CLIMATE FOR OVER 20 YEARS, AND HER NEW BOOK IS A COLLECTION OF ESSAYS.

AND SHE'S JOINING HARRY SREENIVASAN TO REFLECT WHAT SHE HAS LEARNED.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOUR MOST RECENT BOOK, "LIFE ON A LITTLE-KNOWN PLANET," TAKES THE READER THROUGH 20 YEARS OF YOUR ESSAYS AND REPORTING ON THIS TOPIC.

AND THERE'S A QUOTE THAT KIND OF SUMS UP SOME OF YOUR REPORTING.

"EVEN AS WE ARE UPENDING THE NATURAL WORLD, WE ARE COMING TO UNDERSTAND IT IN EVER MORE INTIMATE DETAIL."

WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD THAT KEPT YOU GOING BACK TO FIND THESE STORIES, TO TALK TO THESE PEOPLE, TO SHARE THESE EXPERIENCES?

>> WELL, THE BOOK AND THE STORIES IN IT, I THINK OF THEM AS SORT OF A LOVE LETTER OR LOVE LETTERS, A COLLECTION OF LOVE LETTERS TO A CHANGING WORLD, A CHANGING PLANET.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED I HAVE IN THE PROCESS OF WRITING THESE STORIES GONE TO AMAZING PLACES, TO NEW ZEALAND, TO THE AMAZON, TO THE GREAT BARRIER REEF.

AND I GOT TO SEE AMAZING CREATURES AND MEET AMAZING PEOPLE.

SO THAT -- YOU KNOW, WHAT MORE REALLY COULD A JOURNALIST ASK FOR THAN THAT?

>> ALL RIGHT, LET'S TALK ABOUT THESE AMAZING PEOPLE AND PLACES.

DAVID GRUBER IS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE YOU START YOUR BOOK OUT WITH.

HOW DID YOU FIND HIS WORK IN THE FIRST PLACE?

WHAT LED YOU TO THE STORY?

>> WELL, LIKE ALL -- YOU KNOW, ALL JOURNALISTS ARE SORT OF MAGPIES.

I READ AND CAME UPON A REFERENCE TO THE PROJECT SOMEWHERE.

IT'S CALLED SEDI, WHICH IS A PURPOSEFUL ILLUSION TO THE SEARCH FOR EXTRA TERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE EXCEPT NOW WE'RE LOOKING FOR CETACEAN INTELLIGENCE.

SO THE PROJECT IS LOOKING TO TRY TO DECIPHER THE LANGUAGE OF SPERM WHALES.

SPERM WHALES COMMUNICATE THROUGH THESE VERY ELABORATE SIGNALS OF CLICKS THAT THEY EMIT FROM THEIR ENORMOUS HEADS.

AND DAVID CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA IN CONCERT WITH SOME VERY IMMINENT COMPUTER SCIENTISTS, COULD WE USE MACHINE LEARNING AND A.I.

TO TRY TO DECIPHER THIS?

IT'S A BIG PROJECT, AND IT'S A REALLY FASCINATING PROJECT.

AND I GOT TO SPEND A WEEK OUT WITH THEM LISTENING TO WHALES, AND IN THE PROCESS I ACTUALLY SAW A SPERM WHALE GIVE BIRTH, WHICH WAS JUST AN EXTRAORDINARY EXPERIENCE.

>> THERE'S AN ESSAY WHERE THE BOOK GETS ITS TITLE, "LIFE ON A LITTLE-KNOWN PLANET."

IT'S A PROFILE OF AN ENTOMOLOGIST, DAVID WAGNER, AND HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING PRETTY AUDACIOUS.

HE WANTED TO TRY TO IDENTIFY ALL THE CATERPILLARS IN AMERICA.

WHAT IS THE GRAND VALUE IN THIS JOB?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE MESSAGES I HOPE COMES THROUGH IN THE BOOK IS SOMETHING I'VE REALLY COME TO FEEL STRONGLY AND LEARN FROM ALL OF THE SCIENTISTS THAT I'VE BEEN OUT IN THE FIELD WITH WHO STUDY DIFFERENT SPECIES IS THAT, YOU KNOW, EVERY SPECIES, AND A CATERPILLAR IS A SPECIES OF MOTH OR BUTTERFLY THAT HAS YET TO MUMORPH SIZE INTO AN ADULT.

EVERY SPECIES IS A GREAT QUESTION HOW TO SURVIVE ON PLANET EARTH.

EVERY SPECIES HAS COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT THAT IS SORT OF THE VAST ENCYCLOPEDIA OF LIFE.

AND WHAT DAVID WAGNER IS OUT THERE DOING, AS YOU SAY, IS TRYING TO COLLECT AND PHOTOGRAPH EVERY CATERPILLAR IN NORTH AMERICA, WHICH IS A VAST TASK.

AND BEING WITH HIM WAS JUST EXHAUSTING.

WE WERE RUNNING AROUND ALL THE TIME AND FOUND SOME AMAZING CATERPILLARS WHICH DIDN'T REALLY REVEAL THEIR TRUE COLORS EXCEPT UNDER MAGNIFICATION BUT ARE FANTASTIC CREATURES.

AND HE REALLY SEES IT AS A RACE AGAINST TIME.

WILL THESE SPECIES EVEN BE THERE, YOU KNOW, FIVE, TEN, 15, 20 YEARS FROM NOW.

AND WE WERE IN TEXAS WHERE THEY'RE HAVING A BIG DROUGHT, AND SO THAT QUESTION OF WHETHER DROUGHT AND CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING TO JUST WIPEOUT SOME OF THESE SPECIES WAS VERY MUCH, YOU KNOW, UPPERMOST IN HIS MIND.

>> KIND OF A REFRESHER OR A BIOLOGY LESSON HERE, WHAT'S THE RIPPLE EFFECT WHEN WE HAVE WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS THE INSECT APOCALYPSE?

RIGHT, IF THERE ARE THESE SPECIES THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE, WE MIGHT NOT -- WE MIGHT JUST SEE IT AS, OH, IT'S A PRETTY BUTTERFLY, ET CETERA, BUT IT'S PART OF AN ECOSYSTEM.

>> YEAH, AND WITH CATERPILLARS THAT'S A HUGE BIG DEAL BECAUSE CATERPILLARS ARE A HUGE SOURCE OF FOOD, OF PROTEIN FOR BIRDS.

AND WHEN THEY'RE FLEDGING THEIR YOUNG, THERE'S A LOT OF BIRDS WHO BASICALLY DEPEND ON CATCHING MANY, MANY, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF CATERPILLARS TO GET THEIR BROOD, YOU KNOW, TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN FLEDGE AND LEAVE THE NEST.

SO EVERYTHING INCLUDING CREATURES THAT WE FIND PESTY AND IRRITATING IS PROBABLY A FOOD SOURCE FOR OTHER CREATURES.

AND IN THE CASE OF INSECTS, THAT COULDN'T BE MORE TRUE.

I MEAN, BIRDS, INSECTS VERSUS BIRDS, FISH, EVERYTHING UP THE FOOD CHAIN DEPENDS ON THEM.

SO WHEN YOU'RE MESSING AROUND WITH YOUR INSECT POPULATIONS, YOU'RE REALLY MESSING AROUND WITH SOMETHING PRETTY FUNDAMENTAL TO OUR ECOSYSTEMS.

>> YOU'VE GOT A SECTION CALLED BIG IDEAS AND ONE OF THEM IS CARBON SEQUESTTRATION OR TAKING THE CO2 OUT OF THE AIR AND FIGURING OUT HOW TO PUSH IT BACK UNDERGROUND.

THERE ARE PLACES THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

IT'S IN INCREDIBLY SMALL SCALES.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT?

>> ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT HOW WE TEND TO GO ABOUT LIFE THESE DAYS I SUPPOSE -- AND WHEN I SAY WE I'M THINKING VERY BROADLY ABOUT PEOPLE OR PEOPLE IN THE GLOBAL NORTH IS THAT WE INTRODUCE THINGS INTO THE ENVIRONMENT AND THEN WE DECIDE, OKAY, MAYBE THAT WASN'T SUCH A GREAT IDEA.

PLASTICS, FOR EXAMPLE, BEING EXHIBIT "A" THESE DAYS.

BUT CERTAINLY CARBON DIOXIDE IS WAY, WAY UP THERE.

SO WE'RE EMITTING BILLIONS OF TONS A YEAR OF CARBON DIOXIDE INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, AND THAT'S WARMING OUR PLANET.

YOU KNOW, WE ALL KIND OF KNOW THAT AT THIS POINT.

WE KIND OF ALL EXPERIENCE IT.

AND IF YOU WANT TO KEEP TEMPERATURES FROM EXCEEDING 1.5 DEGREES, WHICH WE'RE BASICALLY AT ALREADY, YOU REALLY NEED TO START TAKING BIG, BIG AMOUNTS OF CO2 OUT OF THE AIR AGAIN.

AND THE CHALLENGE HERE, AS YOU SAY, THE TECHNOLOGY DOES EXIST TO DO THIS.

THE CHALLENGE IS THAT IT TAKES ENERGY.

AND IF YOU'RE USING THAT ENERGY TO TAKE THE CO2 OUT OF THE AIR, THEN YOU SORT OF SAY TO YOURSELF, OKAY, LET'S NOT PUT THE CO2 UP THERE TO BEGIN WITH, AND THAT IS BIG DEBATE THAT'S GOING ON EVEN AS WE SPEAK.

>> AS YOU READ THESE DIFFERENT ESSAYS, YOU FIND THAT SO MUCH OF HOW HUMAN BEINGS APPROACH JUST LIFE, THE FRAMING OF THINGS WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS THE PROBLEM, HOW URGE WANT IS THIS PROBLEM, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT IT?

ONE OF THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE, THE SCIENTISTS YOU SPOKE WITH, KLAUSE, HE KIND OF ARGUES REALLY OUR SORT OF MORAL IMPOSITION IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

HE SAYS SUCH A MORAL STANCE MAKES VIRTUALLY EVERYONE A SINNER AND MAKES HYPOCRITES OUT OF MANY WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE BUT STILL PARTAKE IN THE BENEFITS OF MODERNTY.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT FRAMING?

>> MEETING KLAUSE WAS AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE.

HE'S ONE OF THE PIONEERS IN CARBON CAPTURE.

HIS POINT WAS, LOOK, WE PRODUCE WASTE -- WE ALL PRODUCE WASTE, AND WE TREAT IT AS SUCH.

WE TREAT IT AS GARBAGE THAT NEEDS TO BE COLLECTED.

WE DON'T SAY YOU CAN'T PRODUCE ANY WASTE, AND YOU SHOULD TREAT CARBON DIOXIDE THE SAME WAY.

THAT'S A VERY ATTRACTIVE ARGUMENT.

WHEN I WAS TALKING TO KLAUSE I FOUND IT EXTREMELY COMPELLING.

THE QUESTION IS -- OR A QUESTION IS IT PRACTICAL?

IT GETS BACK TO THE QUESTION OF ENERGY USE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN MAGICALLY.

ALTHOUGH I WILL SAY THAT WHEN PEOPLE GO OUT AND TALK ABOUT PLANTING TREES, TREES ABSORB CARBON DIOXIDE, SO THAT IS SORT OF A WIN-WIN ON THE CARBON CAPTURE FRONT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE LESSONS OF, UNFORTUNATELY, THE LAST FEW DECADES IS THAT THESE PROBLEMS, WHICH WE TEND TO CREATE AT SCALE -- YOU KNOW, WE SCALE -- WE'RE REALLY GOOD AT SCALING THINGS UP -- ARE REALLY HARD TO CONFRONT AT SCALE.

SO CARBON CAPTURE, I THINK, PROBABLY DOES HAVE A PLACE ON A SMALL TO MEDIUM SCALE, BUT WHETHER IT CAN EVER BE SCALED TO THE EXTENT WE JUST TREAT CARBON DIOXIDE AS ANY SORT OF RACE PRODUCT SEEMS VERY DIFFICULT.

>> JUST RECENTLY BILL GATES WROTE AN ESSAY, AND HE ARGUED THAT THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH CLIMATE CHANGE SHOULD BE SHIFTED TO SORT OF SUPPORTING HUMANS.

HIS QUOTE WAS ALTHOUGH CLIMATE CHANGE WILL HAVE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE IN THE POOREST COUNTRIES, IT WILL NOT LEAD TO HUMANITY'S DEMISE.

HE SAYS HEALTH AND PERITY ARE THE BEST DEFENSE AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TWO REACTIONS.

FIRST OF ALL, NOT LEAD TO HUMANITY'S DEMISE IS A PRETTY LOW BAR.

IT WILL LEAD TO A GREAT DEAL OF SUFFERING.

WE SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, PRACTICALLY EVER OTHER WEEK NOW WITH SOME CLIMATE-RELATED DISASTER THAT COSTS A LOT OF PEOPLE THEIR LIVES AND COSTS EVEN MORE PEOPLE THEIR LIVELIHOODS.

WE JUST SAW THAT, YOU KNOW, WITH HURRICANE MELISSA, WHICH WAS A VERY, VERY SEVERE STORM, VERY RAPIDLY INTENSIFYING HURRICANE THAT HIT JAMAICA.

SO I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS NOTION THAT WE CAN JUST REASSIGN RESOURCES AND LET CLIMATE CHANGE CONTINUE SORT OF UNABATED AND THAT SOMEHOW WE'RE GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE SO PROSPEROUS THAT THIS ISN'T GOING TO MATTER, I FIND THAT VERY HARD TO BELIEVE, UNFORTUNATELY.

BUT THAT IS KIND OF AN ARGUMENT THAT'S OUT THERE.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS JUST, YOU KNOW, MORE PROSPERITY, NOT TO DEAL WITH THE ACTUAL ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.

I THINK IT'S PRETTY RARE THAT YOU CAN DEAL WITH A PROBLEM WHEN YOU DON'T DEAL WITH THE ROOT CAUSE OF IT.

>> YOU ALSO PROFILE JAMES HANSEN, WHO WE HAVE BEEN ALIVE LONG ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN HE STARTED HIS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF CONGRESS TALKING TO PEOPLE OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND SAYING, HEY, THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM.

YOU HAVE AN EXCERPT FROM AN ESSAY YOU PUBLISHED.

THIS WAS IN 2009, IT SAYS YOU WROTE "HANSEN HAS NOW CONCLUDED THAT THE THREAT OF GLOBAL WARMING IS FAR GREATER THAN EVEN HE HAD SUSPECTED.

CARBON DIOXIDE ISN'T JUST APPROACHING DANGEROUS LEVELS, IT'S ALREADY THERE.

UNLESS IMMEDIATE ACTION IS TAKEN INCLUDING THE SHUTDOWN OF ALL THE WORLD'S COAL PLANTS IN THE NEXT TWO DECADES, IT WILL CHANGE THAT SOCIETY WON'T BE ABLE TO COPE WITH."

WE'RE ALMOST TWO YEARS NOW TO WHEN THOSE PREDICTIONS CAME TRUE.

WHAT IS IT LIKE REVISITING THAT?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, JIM HAS HAD AN UNFORTUNATE HABIT OF BEING RIGHT THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER.

HE MADE VERY, VERY BOLD PREDICTIONS AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WERE REALLY DEBATING WHETHER YOU COULD SEE THE SIGNAL OF CLIMATE CHANGE, WHETHER IT HAD EMERGED IN THE SORT OF NOISE OF NATURAL CLIMATE VARIABILITY, AND JIM WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE WHO SAID IT HAD.

IN RETROSPECT WHEN PEOPLE GO BACK AND LOOK AT IT, THEY SAY, YES, HE WAS RIGHT.

HE MADE JUST A SERIES OF VERY LEGIBLE PREDICTIONS THAT HAVE ALL COME TRUE.

AND I THINK JIM'S POINT THERE IS IT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING TO GET JIM IN CONVERSATION WITH BILL GATES.

YOU CAN'T -- YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T -- YOU DON'T GET THIS PLANET BACK.

ONCE YOU TAKE THE CLIMATE IN A NEW DIRECTION, YOU DON'T CONTROL IT ANYMORE AND YOU DON'T GET BACK THE CLIMATE THAT YOU ONCE HAD.

AND WHAT IS REALLY I THINK CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT ALL OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION DEVELOPED DURING THIS TIME THAT WE NOW KNOW WAS A TIME OF RELATIVELY RARE CLIMATE STABILITY.

AND IF YOU SAY WE'RE ALL DEPENDING AND WE ALL LIVE ON COASTS, WE ALL LIVE IN PLACES THAT HAVE BEEN FORMED BY THE CLIMATE OF THE LAST 10,000 YEARS AND NOW WE'RE REALLY RAPIDLY CHANGING IT, YOU KNOW, WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

AND NOW WE'RE SEEING, UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT COULD GO WRONG.

AND I THINK THAT READING JIM'S REALLY ELOQUENT PLEAS ALMOST 20 YEARS LATER IS KIND OF HEART BREAKING BECAUSE ONE OF THE POINTS, I THINK, THAT JIM WOULD MAKE, AND JIM WAS DURING THIS IN THE '70s IS WE HAD ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEEDED BACK IN THE 1970s TO KNOW WE WERE FACING A BIG PROBLEM, AND WE DIDN'T ACT ON IT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS HAPPENED IN THOSE 20 YEARS?

I MEAN, IT BECAME AN INTERNATIONAL PRIORITY, RIGHT?

AND THERE WERE MOMENTS WHERE WE SAW, HEY, YOU KNOW, WE COLLECTIVELY GOT TOGETHER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE OZONE HOLE OVER AUSTRALIA, AND WE KIND OF DID IT, YOU KNOW, IN A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

WE HAD THE PARIS ACCORDS, THE PLANET STARTED TO MAKE THESE COMMITMENTS, AND THEN YOU SEE IT JUST KIND OF BEING ROLLED BACK.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I THINK THAT ONE REALLY SIMPLE ANSWER IS, LOOK, OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE HUGE VESTED INTERESTS THAT ARE PROTECTING THE STATUS QUO, WHICH IS VERY HEAVILY FOSSIL FUEL-DEPENDENT.

SO THAT'S NO SECRET.

I DON'T THINK AT THIS POINT ANYONE WOULD MAKE A SECRET OF THAT.

AND WE'RE SEEING -- CERTAINLY SEEING THIS ADMINISTRATION REALLY TRYING TO CATER TO FOSSIL FUEL INTERESTS AND REALLY TRYING TO KNEECAP OTHER EMERGING CLEAN TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRIES, THAT ONCE AGAIN IT'S HARD TO ARGUE WITH THAT.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S GOING ON.

SO THE ECONOMICS OF IT ARE, YOU KNOW, REALLY, REALLY INTENSE.

AND THERE ARE MANY NATIONS THAT ARE BASICALLY PETROL STATES, AND THEY ALSO HAVE A HUGE INTEREST IN NOT TRANSFORMING THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

THAT'S A BASIS.

THE QUESTION WHY THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT PETROL STATES ARE NOT HEAVILY INVESTED IN FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY, WHY AREN'T WE ALL OUTRAGED AND TAKING TO THE STREETS TO DEMAND THIS KIND OF CHANGE IS A QUESTION THAT I REALLY CAN'T ANSWER.

AS YOU SAY, IT DOES HAPPEN.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN FOR WHATEVER REASON PUBLIC OPINION, PEOPLE GET REALLY UPSET AND TAKE TO THE STREETS AND DEMAND ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND THEN WE SORT OF SEE THIS LULL AGAIN.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A PROBLEM THAT IS GOING TO LAST FOREVER.

IT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM FOR THE REST OF, YOU KNOW, MY LIFE AND YOUR LIFE AND PROBABLY OF ANYONE LISTENING TO THIS TONIGHT.

AND SO IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN JUST SAY IT'S SOLVED AND LET'S MOVE ON, AND THAT'S A REALLY HARD PROBLEM POLITICALLY TO DEAL WITH.

>> WATCHING THIS FOR 20 YEARS NOW AND CONSIDERING WHERE THE UNITED STATES WAS IN THE CLIMATE CONVERSATION VERSUS WHERE WE ARE TODAY, WHAT GIVES THE WORLD ANY -- I DON'T KNOW -- SENSE THAT OUR WORD MATTERS?

>> WELL, IN THE CLIMATE REALM I THINK THAT PEOPLE ONLY TAKE THE U.S.

SERIOUSLY BECAUSE WE ARE SUCH A BIG ECONOMY.

WE'RE SUCH A BIG ENERGY USER.

WE'RE SUCH A BIG ENERGY PRODUCER, AND WE ARE SUCH A TECHNOLOGICAL POWERHOUSE, AND I THINK THE SENSE IS, WELL, YOU CAN'T SOLVE THIS WITHOUT THE U.S.

YOU CAN ONLY DEAL WITH IT WITH THE U.S.

SO BASICALLY WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE U.S.

WHEN THEY'RE WILLING TO BE IN THE ROOM.

NOW THE U.S.

IS NOT EVEN WILLING TO BE IN THE ROOM.

YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE PARIS AGREEMENT.

THEY COULD STILL BE AT THIS COP IN BRAZIL, BUT THEY'RE NOT VERY POINTEDLY.

AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE I THINK ARE SAYING, WELL, SO BE IT.

THE WORLD IS GOING TO HAVE TO MOVE AHEAD ON ITS OWN.

AND ONE OF THE BIG DEVELOPMENTS IN RECENT YEARS HAS BEEN CHINA REALLY TAKING THE LEAD ON TECHNOLOGIES LIKE, YOU KNOW, SOLAR PANELS AND ELECTRIC CARS.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL SAY -- AND I'M NOT AN ECONOMIST, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO ETOO OUR LUNCH BECAUSE WE'RE GOING BACK TO 19th CENTURY TECHNOLOGIES, AND THEY ARE MOVING INTO THE 22nd CENTURY ECONOMY.

SO THAT IS A QUESTION, YOU KNOW, WHETHER WE'RE NOT ONLY DOING A DISSERVICE TO THE WORLD BECAUSE WE'RE SIMPLY NOT WILLING TO BE THERE AT THE TABLE AND ACKNOWLEDGE OUR ROLE IN THIS HUGE GLOBAL PROBLEM, THIS PROBLEM WE'VE FOISTED OFF ON PEOPLE IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD WHO DID VERY LITTLE TO CAUSE IT.

BUT ALSO ARE WE SHOOTING OURSELVES -- AND I HOPE THIS ISN'T TOO MUCH OF A NICHE METAPHOR -- IN THE FOOT BY TURNING OUR BACK ON THE ECONOMY OF THE FUTURE.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "LIFE ON A LITTLE-KNOWN PLANET."

ELIZABETH KOLBERT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WRITING THE BOOK AND YOUR TIME TODAY.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.