Salman Rushdie Discusses His First Work of Fiction Since Near-Fatal Attack

>>> NOW SALMAN RUSHDIE LIVED FOR DECADES UNDER THE THREAT OF A DEATH SENTENCE AND THEN IN 2022 HE SURVIVED A KNIFE ATTACK WHICH LEFT HIM BLIND IN ONE EYE.

THE AWARD WINNING AUTHOR IS NO STRANGER TO HIS OWN MORTALITY.

THREE YEARS AFTER THAT BRUTAL ATTACK HE'S CHANNELING HIS EXPERIENCES IN A NEW WORK OF FICTION.

"THE 11th HOUR" IS A QUINTET OF SHORT STORIES EXPLORING LIFE, DEATH, AND WHAT BECOMES CLEAR IN LIFE'S PROVERBIAL 11th HOUR.

RUSHDIE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE PROJECT AND WHAT A CLOSE ENCOUNTER WITH DEATH TAUGHT HIM.

>> THANK YOU, BY BIANNAI, AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW, SALMAN RUSHDIE.

YOU'VE GOT A NEW BOOK OUT NOW OF SHORT STORIES CALLED "11th HOUR," BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT, JUST HOW ARE YOU?

>> I'M NOT SO BAD, THANK YOU.

I THINK I'M BETTER THAN I WAS WHEN WE SPOKE ABOUT "KNIFE."

I'VE MADE A PRETTY GOOD RECOVERY, THANK YOU.

THAT HELP OPEN THE WAY FOR YOU TO GET BACK TO FICTION?

>> IT REALLY DID, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I FELT UNTIL I DEALT WITH THE ATTACK IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO THINK ABOUT FICTION AND WHAT HAPPENED IS ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER FINISHING THE MEMOIR IT'S LIKE THAT DOOR IN MY HEAD OPENED AGAIN, YOU KNOW, AND I WAS ABLE TO GO INTO THE WORLD OF THE IMAGINATION ONCE AGAIN.

IT WAS ACTUALLY KIND OF JOYFUL.

>> THAT'S A WONDERFUL LINE.

THE DOOR IN MY HEAD OPENED TO THE IMAGINATION.

DESCRIBE THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE TO ME.

I'D LOVE TO HAVE THAT DOOR OPEN IN MY HEAD.

>> WELL, IT'S JUST FOR A COUPLE YEARS AFTER THE ATTACK I HAD NO STORIES IN MY HEAD.

THE ONLY THING I COULD THINK ABOUT AND THINK THROUGH WAS THE ATTACK AND ITS NATURE AND ITS CONSEQUENCES AND SO ON, BUT THE MOMENT I FINISHED WRITING ABOUT IT, SOMEHOW I TOLD MYSELF THAT'S DONE, DEALT WITH, FINISHED AND WHEN I COULD DRAW A LINE UNDER IT IN THAT WAY, SUDDENLY THE STORIES STARTED TO COME BACK.

IT WAS JUST AS IF BY MAGIC.

>> YOU'VE HAD THE FATWA THAT WAS THE SORT OF SENDANT ON YOUR LIFE THEY TRIED TO DO AND THEN YOU HAD THE KNIFE ATTACK.

DO EACH OF THESE THINGS REINFORCE EACH OTHER?

HOW DO YOU BREAK YOUR HEAD OUT OF THAT?

>> NO.

I THINK I SPENT A LOT OF MY LIFE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS KIND OF ATTACK AND I DON'T KNOW.

I GUESS I'M A LITTLE HARDENED TO IT.

I KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH IT AND WHAT I'VE MANAGED TO DO ALL THESE YEARS, THE FIRST ATTACK WAS WAY BACK IN 1989, IS I'VE MANAGED TO CONTINUE WITH MY WORK.

I'M PROUD OF THAT.

I MEAN THE SATANIC VERSES WAS MY FIFTH PUBLISHED BOOK, MY FOURTH PUBLISHED NOVEL.

THIS, "THE 11th HOUR," IS MY ACTUALLY MOST OF MY LIFE AS A WRITER HAS BEEN SINCE THAT HOSTILITY BEGAN AND I'VE MANAGED TO OVERCOME IT TO MY SATISFACTION I THINK.

>> YOU'VE OVERCOME IT, BUT IN SOME WAYS HAS IT INFORMED YOU?

HAS IT SORT OF PUSHED MORE?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW IS THE ANSWER.

I THINK IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT MY WRITING WILL BE LIKE IF NOTHING EVER HAPPENED TO ME, BUT AT LEAST I MANAGED TO GO ON DOING THE WORK AND THESE STORIES REALLY KIND OF CAME OUT VERY FLUENTLY.

IT'S AS IF THE IMAGINATION HAD BEEN WAITING TO BE RELEASED AND THE STORIES CAME OUT IN A FLOOD.

>> YOU CALL IT THE 11th HOUR.

THE PHRASE KIND OF EVOKES IT'S A LAST POSSIBLE CHANCE YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE THINKING, TOO?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING, YOU KNOW, THAT TIME IS SHORT AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LEARNED FROM THE ATTACK AGAINST ME, IF YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN A SECOND CHANCE BECAUSE I'M QUITE LUCKY TO HAVE SURVIVED IT AND IF YOU HAVE THE GOOD FORTUNE TO BE GIVEN A SECOND ACT OF LIFE, DON'T WASTE IT.

USE THE TIME.

DO AS MUCH AS YOU CAN AND SO THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO.

I'M TRYING TO FILL UP THE DAYS WITH WORK.

>> SO YOU HAVE THIS WONDERFUL STORY, THE MUSICIAN OF KAHANI AND IT BRINGS YOU BACK TO I THINK YOUR CHILDHOOD IN INDIA WHERE YOU'VE BEEN BEFORE IN YOUR FICTION.

TELL ME ABOUT CIRCLING BACK TO PLACES THAT ARE ALMOST OUGHT AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL.

>> NOT ALMOST, DEFINITELY AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL.

IN MY HOMETOWN BOMBAY THERE'S THIS TINY, LITTLE NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE I GREW UP IN THIS GIGANTIC CITY.

THERE'S THIS LITTLE LANE GOING UP A HILL AND THAT'S WHERE MY CHILDHOOD HOME WAS AND EVERY TIME I'VE BEEN BACK TO INDIA ALL MY LIFE I'VE BEEN --IT'S BEEN NECESSARY FOR ME TO GO BACK AND STAND THERE AGAIN AND BE DRAWN BACK INTO MY CHILDHOOD AND MY TEENAGE YEARS AND SO ON.

IT'S A KIND OF MAGIC SPACE FOR ME AND THE HERO OF MIDNIGHT'S CHILDREN GROWS UP IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD, TOO, AND ACTUALLY ONE OF THE CHARACTERS WHEN YOU MENTIONED, HER BACKSTORY IS IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD.

SO I THOUGHT ONE MORE --MAYBE THERE'S ONE MORE STORY TO TELL UP THAT HILL.

LET ME TAKE ONE LAST WALK UP THERE.

>> AND THE MUSICIAN WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS A PRODIGY, SORT OF A CHILD PRODIGY, AND HER MOTHER KIND OF STRUGGLES OVER WHEN COMES THIS TALENT?

HOW DOES THAT COME OUT?

TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND HOW YOU THINK ABOUT YOURSELF AS HOW DOES THIS TALENT COME OUT.

>> IN MY FAMILY WE DO HAVE SUCH A PRODIGY.

I HAVE A NIECE WHO IS A BRILLIANT CONCERT PIANIST AND SHE STARTED OUT WHEN SHE WAS LIKE 4 OR 5 YEARS OLD BECOMING --REVEALING HERSELF TO BE VERY GIFTED AND TO SAY THE LEAST, MY FAMILY IS NOT A MUSICAL FAMILY.

I MEAN YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR ME SING.

SO IN A KIND OF NONMUSICAL FAMILY FOR THIS GREAT GIFT TO SUDDENLY ARRIVE FELT LIKE A MIRACLE.

SO I WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT IDEA, THAT HOW DOES IT HAPPEN?

IT MAKES YOU UNDERSTAND WHEN PEOPLE SAY SOMETHING IS A GIFT, THAT'S ACTUALLY LITERALLY WHAT IT IS.

IT'S LIKE SOMETHING YOU'RE JUST GIVEN.

YOU DIDN'T EARN IT.

IT JUST SHOWS UP.

SO I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT A CHARACTER LIKE THAT WHO IS SIMPLY GIVEN A MIRACULOUS GIFT AND HOW DOES SHE USE IT?

>> CHANLE, THE MUSICAL PRODIGY, IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME BECAUSE HER FATHER IN YOUR STORY BECOMES A SPIRITUAL FOLLOWER OF A PARTICULAR GURU.

>> YES, YES.

YOU WROTE WHICH STRUCK US, WHICH IS, "WHAT HE FAILED TO UNDERSTAND WAS THAT MITMU WAS A REAL MAN," THIS GURU, "WAS A REAL MAN WHO HAD TURNED HIMSELF INTO AN IMAGINARY ONE, SO THAT HE WAS A FICTION, TOO."

THAT SEEMS TO CONNECT TO A LOT OF WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR WRITING.

EXPAND ON THAT FOR ME.

>> WELL, INDIA IS FULL OF GURUS.

SOME OF THEM ARE KIND OF SUPERGURUS WHO HAVE ENORMOUS FOLLOWINGS AND SOMETIMES AMASS GREAT WEALTH AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN VERY SUSPICIOUS OF PROFESSIONAL HOLY MEN AND SO I HAVE A SORT OF SATIRICAL URGE TOWARDS THEM AND THEY DO.

THEY MAKE THEMSELVES UP.

THEY ANNOUNCE THAT THEY ARE IN SOME WAY TOUCHED BY THE GODS AND HAVE MIRACULOUS QUALITIES AND CAN HEAL YOU AND CAN DO ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

THAT'S A FICTION THAT THEY CREATE THAT THEY THEN LIVE IT AND THEY PERSUADE OTHER PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IT, TOO.

I THINK THE PHENOMENON OF THE CULT IS VERY MUCH ALIVE IN OUR TIME, YOU KNOW.

THERE HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL OF VERY STRANGE CULT LEADERS.

YOU THINK ABOUT WACO.

YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THESE -- YOU THINK ABOUT JIM JONES, ET CETERA.

SO I WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT MENTALITY, THE MENTALITY NOT JUST OF THE CULT FOLLOWER, BUT OF THE CULT LEADER.

HOW DO YOU BECOME THAT PERSON?

BECAUSE NONE OF US IS BORN AS A GURU.

YOU HAVE TO INVENT YOURSELF.

>> YES.

THE MUSICIAN, THE PRODIGY, YOU SAID THAT TURNED OUT TO BE ONE DIRECTLY IMPACTED AND SHAPED THE WORLD IN WHICH SHE LIVED.

THAT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF YOU.

YOUR ART HAS HELPED SHAPE THE WORLD.

DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT TYPE OF IMPACT?

>> NO.

I MEAN I THINK WHEN IT HAPPENS, IT'S USUALLY AN ACCIDENT.

I MEAN I THINK PROBABLY THE ONE BOOK THAT I THINK THAT MAYBE HAD A REALLY DIRECT IMPACT ON HISTORY IS "UNCLE TOM'S CABIN," BECAUSE THAT WAS A BOOK THAT SO ENERGIZED THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE QUESTION OF ENSLAVEMENT THAT IT HAD A REAL POLITICAL IMPACT.

THERE'S A STORY OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN MEETING HARRIET BEECHER STOWE AND SAYING TO HER YOU ARE THE LITTLE WOMAN WHICH STARTED THIS BIG WAR AND THERE'S A SENSE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW THAT'S TRUE, ALSO AN EXAGGERATION, OF COURSE.

>> YOU HAVE A STORY IN THE BOOK CALLED LATE IN WHICH YOU'RE HANGING AROUND YOUR OLD STOMPING GROUNDS, CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY IN ENGLAND, AND YOU SAY IN THIS THAT IT DOCUMENTS EVENTS THAT CANNOT EASILY BE ACCOMMODATED WITHIN A RIGOROUSLY RATIONAL DESCRIPTION OF THE WORLD.

ALL OF YOUR FICTION TO ME SEEMS TO BE A BLEND OF RATIONAL REALISM ALONG WITH MAGICAL FANTASY AND IT'S WOVEN TOGETHER.

DESCRIBE HOW YOU CONSCIOUSLY ARE DOING THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> WELL, THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT FOR MYSELF IS THAT, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, IN OUR WAKING LIVES WE TRY TO BE RATIONAL PEOPLE AND WE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD THROUGH REASON AND SO ON AND KNOWLEDGE.

WE ALSO ARE DREAMING CREATURES, YOU KNOW, AND WHEN WE DREAM, WE'RE COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL AND OUR MINDS WORK IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

AND I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING TO DO --SOMETHING I WAS TRYING BLEND THOSE THINGS, TO USE THE IRRATIONALITY AND FANTASY OF THE DREAMING MIND WITH THE RATIONALITY AND EVERYDAYNESS OF THE WAKING MIND.

SO TO MIX THE IMAGINATION WITH OBSERVATION, TO MIX, IF YOU LIKE.

>> I IT WAS READING SOMETHING THAT DENNIS HASABIS WHEN HE WAS STUDYING NEUROSCIENCE IS THAT MEMORY IS VERY MUCH LINKED TO IMAGINATION AND THAT SEEMED TO BE A THEME OF YOUR WORK AS WELL.

WHENCE COMETH IMAGINATION?

HOW DO WE HAVE THAT TRAIT?

>> WELL, THANK GOODNESS WE DO BECAUSE HOW DULL LIFE WOULD BE WITHOUT IT, YOU KNOW.

AS FAR AS I KNOW, WE ARE THE ONLY CREATURE ON THE EARTH THAT HAS THAT CAPACITY, THE CAPACITY TO IMAGINE YOURSELF, THE CAPACITY TO IMAGINE THE WORLD BEING DIFFERENT WHICH, OF COURSE, OUT OF WHICH COMES THE POSSIBILITY OF CHANGE BECAUSE BEFORE YOU COULD CHANGE THE WORLD YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE A DIFFERENT WORLD.

AND WE CAN ALL DO THAT TO A DIFFERING DEGREE.

THE INTERESTING THING YOU MENTION ABOUT MEMORY IN IMAGINATION IS MEMORY IS A VERY TRICKY THING.

MANY OF US REMEMBER THE PAST INACCURATELY, BUT THE INACCURATE MEMORY BECOMES IN A WAY MORE POWERFUL THAN THE FACTS BECAUSE WE CLING TO OUR MEMORIES AS THE TRUTH EVEN IF IT CAN BE SHOWN TO US THAT WE ARE MISREMEMBERING.

SO MEMORY IS A KIND OF FICTION AS WELL.

>> A LOT OF YOUR STORIES INVOLVE FANTASIES AND MIRACLES AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND YOU SAY YOU'RE INTERESTED IN MIRACLES YOU SAY NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE MIRACLES, BUT BECAUSE THEY ENCAPSULATE TRUTH SOMEHOW.

HOW DOES FANTASY AND MIRACLE ENCAPSULATE TRUTH?

>> I THINK LITERATURE --THE PURPOSE OF LITERATURE IS ALWAYS TO AIM TOWARDS THE TRUTH AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT?

WELL, WHAT I MEAN IS THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE LIKE.

THAT'S WHAT THE ART OF LITERATURE IS ABOUT.

WHY ARE WE THIS WAY?

WHY DO WE THINK AS WE THINK?

WHY DO WE ACT AS WE ACT?

WHY DO WE TREAT OUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS THE WAY WE TREAT THEM?

WHAT DO WE CARE ABOUT?

WHAT DO WE LOVE?

WHAT FRIGHTENS US?

WHO ARE WE?

YOU CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION IN A VERY WIDE VARIETY OF METHODS.

I MEAN REALISM IS ONLY ONE WAY OF ANSWERING THE QUESTION.

FABLE, FANTASY, FAIRYTALE, THAT'S BEEN AS POWERFUL OF WAY IN WHICH HUMAN BEINGS HAVE TOLD THEMSELVES THE STORY OF THEMSELVES.

>> THE LAST LINE IN THE LAST STORY IN THIS COLLECTION IS WORDS FAIL US AND THAT SORT OF CONFLICTS WITH SOMETHING YOU SAID I THINK IN VICTORY CITY.

WORDS ARE THE ONLY VICTORS.

TELL ME ABOUT JUGGLING THOSE TWO CONCEPTS.

>> WELL, I'M MORE ON THE SIDE OF THE VICTORY CITY LINE MYSELF, THAT WORDS OUTLAST THE AUTHORS AND THEY OUTLAST THE TIME IN WHICH THEY'RE MADE AND IN THE END THEY DESCRIBE MOST OF THE FUTURE, YOU KNOW.

BUT WHAT THAT STORY AND THE OLD MAN IN THE PIAZZA IS ABOUT IS A MOMENT WITH JUST KIND OF A FANTASY MOMENT VARIATION, IF YOU LIKE, OF WHAT SOMETHING I THINK THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, WHICH IS A KIND OF FRACTURING IN WHICH IT'S MUCH HARDER FOR US TO TALK TO EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW, THAT OUR LANGUAGE SEEMS TO BE NOT SUFFICIENT TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER.

THERE'S GREAT DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT SIMPLY ABOUT THE FACTS ABOUT WHAT IS THE CASE AND WHAT THE WORLD IS AND WHAT'S TRUE AND WHAT'S NOT TRUE AND THOSE ARGUMENTS ARE GETTING HEATED AMERICA, BUT INCLUDING AMERICA.

AND IF YOU LIVE IN THAT WORLD WHERE LANGUAGE IS INADEQUATE TO COMMUNICATE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION.

SO THAT LAST LINE OUR WORDS FAIL US I GUESS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A WARNING, YOU KNOW.

LOOK OUT.

>> AND A WARNING OF WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG?

>> WELL, WE'RE NOT COMMUNICATING WELL.

>> IS THAT BECAUSE WE KIND OF SELF-CENSOR OR WHAT IS IT?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS AND WE DON'T WANT TO GET INTO SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT THE IDEA OF THESE BUBBLES THAT PEOPLE LIVE IN, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU ONLY LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO THINK THE SAME WAY AS YOU AND YOU THINK EVERYBODY WHO THINKS ANOTHER WAY IS TELLING A LIE.

THESE LITTLE BUBBLES THAT HAVE NOW BEEN CREATED, ECHO CHAMBERS THAT WE LIVE IN, MAKE IT HARDER FOR TO US LIVE OUTSIDE THE ECHO >> YOU'RE A HISTORIAN BY TRADE.

YOU HAVE MANY SPECIALTIES WITHIN HISTORY AND INDIA BEING ONE OF THEM DURING THE 1900s, BUT YOU'RE ALSO AN AMERICAN HISTORIAN.

WE'RE ABOUT TO HIT OUR 250th BIRTHDAY AS A COUNTRY.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW AMERICAN HISTORY HAS INFORMED YOUR WORK AND HOW YOU THINK MAYBE IT CAN HELP US BRING US BACK TOGETHER A LITTLE BIT FOR OUR 250th?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE REASONS WHY PEOPLE LIKE ME CAME TO LIVE IN AMERICA WAS BECAUSE OF OUR ADMIRATION OF THE SYSTEM AND I THINK SOMETHING LIKE THE FIRST AMENDMENT WAS AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN MY DECIDING THAT THIS IS A PLACE I WANT TO LIVE IN, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THERE'S NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHICH SAYS THAT ITS PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHTS TO THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

HAPPINESS DOESN'T CROP UP IN LOT OF POLITICAL ARGUMENTS.

IF AMERICANS ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS, THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING.

SO THERE'S MANY THINGS ABOUT THE ORIGIN STORY, IF YOU LIKE, OF THE UNITED STATES THAT I ADMIRE VERY MUCH.

YOU KNOW, ALL COUNTRIES ARE MANY COUNTRIES.

ALL COUNTRIES ARE PLURALISTIC AND ARGUMENTATIVE AND FULL OF DIFFERENCES.

SO YOU CHOOSE THE COUNTRY.

YOU CHOOSE THE AMERICA YOU WANT TO BELONG TO, YOU KNOW.

THAT'S THE AMERICA THAT I CHOSE.

>> SALMAN RUSHDIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.