Scott Galloway Sounds the Alarm on the Crisis Facing Young Men

HARI SREENIVASAN: Bianna, thanks. Scott Galloway, thanks so much for joining us. You just wrote a book called “Notes on Being a Man” about the crisis affecting young boys and men. And on a recent podcast, you said, “No group has fallen faster in America than young men.” Lay out the kind of problem case for us. Why is this book necessary for young men today? I mean, why aren’t they being prioritized?

SCOTT GALLOWAY: Hari, it’s good to see you. Thanks for having me. So, the, the data is pretty stark. If you go into a morgue, and there’s five people who’ve died by suicide, four are men. They’re three times more likely to be addicted, three times more likely to be homeless. So when we say we have a homeless problem and an addiction problem, it would be fair to say we have a male homeless and a male addiction problem. One in seven men are now referred to as “NEETs,” and that is neither employed in education or in training. Only one in three men under the age of 30 is in a relationship, and two in three women under the age of 30 are in a relationship. And you think, Well, that’s mathematically impossible. It’s not, because women are dating older because they want more economically and emotionally viable men.

And the result is, I believe that we’re slowly but surely producing or evolving a new breed of, or a new species of asocial, asexual males. It’s as if we’re planning our own extinction. And if you look at the most violent — looking to the ramifications here, if you look at the most violent, unstable society in the world, they have a preponderance of one thing: a discoordinate amount of young men with a lack of economic or romantic opportunities. So I think it’s a real problem. And unfortunately, I think that the unearned privilege of men of my generation has resulted in a lack of empathy for young men who don’t have the same opportunities that I had.

SREENIVASAN: You kind of break down parts of your code into three roles that men should be playing, they should protect, provide and procreate. Break that down for us.

GALLOWAY: Well, I think at a capitalist society, and we’re not talking about, not necessarily about the way the world should be but the way it is, I think men need to be economically viable. And I think a decent place to start as a man is to bring the focus and energy and discipline and pursue certification such that you can be economically viable. Show the discipline that you can make some money and save more than you spend. And assume that you should take economic responsibility, which is, sometimes means to get outta the way and be more supportive of your partner who might be better at this whole money thing. Because I think, unfortunately, our society disproportionately evaluates women on their aesthetics, and it disproportionately evaluates men on their economic viability.

But the whole shooting match, the whole reason you get strong, smart, certified and establish some prosperity is that your default operating system should be to move to protection. And that is, if you think about the most masculine jobs, whether it’s a fireman, a cop, or someone in the military, at the end of the day, what they’re really doing is protecting. And Hari, I know you have kids, I, I feel most at ease and most as if I have purpose, when I know my kids are safe, my partner feels noticed, and I feel good about myself, I protect myself, I protect my family and then I can move to protecting the community, protecting the country. And then the ultimate expression of masculinity, I think is to plant trees, the shade of which you won’t sit under.  

And then the final thing is procreation. And this is more controversial, but I stand by it. I think we have pathologized men’s interest in romantic and sexual relationships when it should be celebrated. And that is that fire of wanting to have a relationship, wanting to have sex, wanting to have children, can be channeled — and it usually is — into very positive ways. Wanting to be fit, wanting to dress well, wanting to groom, wanting to have a plan, wanting to demonstrate the ultimate secret weapon of mating from a man’s perspective, in my view — and there’s research to show this — have a kindness practice. So we’ve pathologized men’s interest in romantic and sexual relationships. And I think it should be celebrated as long as it’s channeled the right way. 

SREENIVASAN: You know, when someone hears the, the procreate portion, the pillar here, they’re gonna say, Well, what, what is the role of women in the world according to Galloway? What is his suggestion to young men on how they should interact with and perceive the other half of the species?

GALLOWAY: Well, I, I mentor some young men, and when I know they’ve come off the tracks is when they start blaming immigrants for their economic problems. And when they start blaming women for the romantic problems. And to the right’s credit, they recognized the problem with young men before anybody. But their solution was to conflate masculinity with coarseness and cruelty, and take America back to where it was in the 50s when non-whites and women had less opportunity. They’ve somehow decided that there’s an inverse correlation between women’s ascent and men’s descent. And that’s just not true. 

I think we have to teach our young boys that we should be celebrating — and men — our sisters and our mother’s ascent, it’s absolutely wonderful. No group has ascended faster than women globally. More are seeking tertiary education than men.

And I think unfortunately, because of these algorithms and certain trends, popular trends, in the media, the genders have done a great job of convincing themselves that it’s the other gender’s fault. Men, a lot of men, unfortunately, in the manosphere, wanna blame women for their problems. Again, that’s toxic and just totally incorrect. But also, quite frankly, there is a bit of a zeitgeist and an unhealthy theme online among young women that young men don’t have problems, they are the problem. And also on the far right, while they conflate masculinity with coarseness and cruelty, the far left’s answer to the masculinity crisis is to tell young men to act more like a woman. (14:23): I don’t think that’s helpful either. So I think the ultimate alliance is the following. I think men protect, protect. I think women heal, and I think together they create wonderful, happy households and more humanity. 

And I also feel compelled to say, Hari, that masculinity and femininity, which should be celebrated, both of them, are not sequestered to the people born as males or females. I think there’s some women who demonstrate wonderful masculine features. And I think there’s men that demonstrate wonderful feminine features. So let’s celebrate femininity, let’s celebrate masculinity, and let’s restore the greatest alliance in history. And that is the alliance between men and women.

SREENIVASAN: You know, you talk a lot about your own life and the disadvantages and advantages that you had. And I can see a recent college grad watching our conversation. And when it comes to economic opportunity, they can say, You know what I read that book, Scott, and that’s pretty nice, but you were able to afford an apartment. You didn’t have massive college debt hanging over your head. You didn’t know whether or not AI was gonna completely consolidate a lot of entry-level white collar positions that I’m applying for today. How much of this is this disillusionment, I guess, for young men today, a, a circumstance of the climate that we’re living in?

GALLOWAY: My response to that, my response to that would be that you’re a hundred percent correct. I’ll just run through it. I got assisted lunch. I got into UCLA when there was a 74% admissions rate. I was one of the 26% that didn’t get in. I applied again and I got in. The admissions rate this year will be 9%. I got Pell Grants. Immigrants built my company as I came of age during the Internet. If you look at 1945 to 2000, 5% of the population in America registered a third of the economic growth globally. And then all of that massive prosperity was crammed into one third of the population that was essentially white heterosexual males. Let me be clear, I had unfair, unprecedented, historic advantage, historic wind in my sails, but that’s no reason to hold it. A 19-year-old is paying the price for my privilege.

And we have a debt on a couple levels. One, we have an obligation to get involved in the lives of young men that aren’t ours. The single point of failure for a young man coming off the tracks is when he loses a male role model. And they’re super easy to find — young men without a male role model — just ask around your office for single mothers. (18:50): You don’t have to be a CEO. You don’t have to be an adolescent psychiatrist. Does the kid want to come over and watch a ball game with me? Would he be interested in coming over and hanging out? They, they are young men and boys everywhere. And it is so easy to add value. 

And then part of that debt also is my generation to start paying it forward or paying it back, if you will, and stop these economic policies that keep transferring wealth from young people to old. The two biggest tax deductions in our tax code are mortgage interest rate tax deduction and capital gains. (19:38): Who owns homes and stocks? People my age. Who rents and makes their money from current income? Young people. 

The scariest statistic in our society right now, Hari, and the epicenter of, I think the majority of what ails our nation is the following. For the first time in our nation’s history, a 30-year-old man or woman isn’t doing as well as his or her parents (21:30): were at the age of 30. These are solvable problems. Tax holidays, minimum wage of $25 an hour, national service, tax deduction on earned — on current income — as opposed to capital gains, universal child credit. Universal childcare, which I think would help young families. The $40 billion tax credit stripped outta the infrastructure bill, the $120 billion cost of living adjustment and the social security plan flies right through Congress. We need to stop — old people need to stop putting their hands in the pockets of young people. This isn’t rocket science. Tax credits. 8 million homes in 10 years. Bring the cost of education down. And a tax policy that is truly progressive and stops stealing from young people.

SREENIVASAN: One of the things Scott, you repeatedly talk about in the book is that young men should get offline. Why?

GALLOWAY: I wrote a book on happiness ’cause I, and I’m finally old enough to admit this. I struggle with anger and depression. And I think I’ve read every peer reviewed research paper on happiness, and they all distill around the same thing. The key to happiness, the key to purpose, is deep and meaningful relationships. And unfortunately, you have 40% of the S&P by market value has a vested interest in sequestering you and polarizing you. And what you have online is a frictionless version of life where you lack the friction to teach you skills and you lack real connection. The deepest pocketed companies with godlike technology are trying to train all of our young people and men especially, who are especially receptive to this, that they can have a reasonable facsimile of life online. Why go through the hassle of trying to navigate the pecking order to find friends, right? 

Hari, you’re an interesting guy. I’d like to be your friend. Let’s grab drinks. That feels awkward for me to say. And it’s true. Why put on a tie, try to navigate the landmine of BS that is corporate America when you can trade stocks or crypto on Coinbase or Robinhood? And why would you go through the effort of looking nice, working out, showering, smelling good, having a plan, taking risks, the expense and develop the calluses and the resilience of risk taking with women who are, have a, who are much choosier than men, such that you could have a romantic and sexual relationship of your own when you have lifelike porn? 

We — men, young men need to get off of their phones, get out, touch grass, take risks, engage and hear a lot of ‘No’s.’ I coach young men. One, we’re gonna get fit, we’re gonna get, get strong. Two, we’re gonna start making some money. Get a taste for flesh. If you have a smartphone, you can make some money. I don’t care if it’s being a Lyft driver or a Taskrabbiter, ’cause once you get a little bit of money, you start learning how to make more, you get excited about it. And three, we’re gonna put ourselves in a company of strangers and then, we’re gonna express friendship and ask somebody out to go see the ball game. And maybe ask someone out for coffee and exhibit the key skill — which I think every father needs to try and try and teach his son at a young age —  how do you express romantic interest while making someone feel safe? 

And this is the goal: No. Because there is no great thing in life. There is no one, there’s no real victory in life that isn’t proceeded by a shit ton of ‘No’s.’ You didn’t show up and start doing national programs with millions of viewers. I can’t tell you how many ‘No’s’ I have had in my life. So it’s pretty simple. Get off your goddamn phone, get out, touch grass, get to ‘No.’ And the more ‘No’s’ you get, that means a wonderful ‘Yes’ is waiting for you.

SREENIVASAN: You, you talk about your dad who passed away earlier this year, and how difficult that process was. And I wonder if…just the process, the act of writing this book was hard for you having to kind of rethink about the relationships that you had in your past with your mom, your dad? And, you know, you, you lay out also that his life is a cautionary tale. Why?

GALLOWAY: This isn’t an easy thing to say about your father who recently passed away. My father was not a high character person. He was married and divorced four times. He left his last wife when she was in late stage Parkinson’s, a year away from passing away. My sister and I — my father passed away about three months ago — my sister and I were gonna have a service for, and then we realized nobody would come. He didn’t have a single friend. So he left me and my mom when we were eight. He could have made our lives a lot easier and he chose not to. So he was a, a flawed person. 

But what I would say is a huge unlock, not just for men, but for anybody, and has been a huge unlock in my life, is that about 20 or 30 years ago, I decided to put away the scorecard. (35:51): And instead of thinking, was my dad good or not good to me, meaning that should dictate what kind of son I am, I just said, all right, what kind of son do I want to be? What kind of partner do I want to be? What kind of boss do I want to be? What kind of friend do I wanna be? And then hold myself to that standard and not have a scorecard. And I decided I wanted to be a loving, generous son. And I was that. And I got huge reward outta my relationship with him the last 20 or 30 years. And also my father checked an evolutionary box for all men in that as he was a much better father than me, as bad as he was, than his father was to him. And he evolved and he tried, he tried to get better.

But it is a cautionary tale, Hari, because as many blessings as my father had, he essentially — had it not been for his sister or for, for his son and his sister, he would’ve died under bright lights surrounded by strangers. So it’s a cautionary tale that if you don’t invest in relationships and you don’t give of yourself and you’re selfish, you run the risk of of leaving this world alone and of failing. 

 and he kind of, he kind of made the fatal mistake around raising children. And that is, I do believe that the best thing you can do for your sons is to treat their mother well. And my dad didn’t do that.

SREENIVASAN: You know, you end your book with essentially a letter to your sons. And I guess, what do you want them to know about the relationship that you had with your parents and how that informed you as a parent to them? Because as you just talked about your dad, you’re very tender with what your mom, the role that she played in your life, and especially the end of her life, when you had a far greater role as really a, a caregiver and — which is a completely different dynamic that most kids think will never happen to them.

GALLOWAY: I’m grateful. I had — my mom when she was diagnosed with cancer for the third and final time, I moved in with her. And it’s something towards the end of her life. It’s something that I will cherish the rest of my life. 

What, what I want my sons to know is the following: that first and foremost, I love them immensely. I, and something I got from my mom is, I think if you, in small and little ways, explicitly, implicitly tell your kids you just think they’re wonderful, and my mom did that, I don’t think they can help but start to believe that themselves. (39:06): And I think that’s the key to success, is at the end of the day after being fired, after being rejected by a potential romantic partner, after losing money, you can look in the mirror and think, I can add value to a company. I can make someone very happy. And things will work out for me. 

But also to recognize that they have a debt. They have a debt. They were born in America, which gives them unprecedented agency. They were born into wealth, which means they have an obligation to ensure that the ladder’s not pulled up behind them. And finally, end the letter with the following. You know, take care of your mom. That’s it. That’s the whole shooting match. That was one of the, one of the, you know, they are the thing I’m most proud of. I’m proud of my economic security, but that’s just a means. The ends is the following. And what it means to be a man is to move from prosperity to protection. And that I hope that they recognize someday that that protection initially manifests itself in taking care of the mother. 

And then also what it really means to be a man on a broader level is what I call surplus value. Do you absorb more complaints than you complain? Do you notice people? Are you the kind of person that feels as if when someone cuts you off in traffic, you have to speed up and cut them off? When someone is rude to you at the ticket counter at Delta — and I’m describing me as a younger man and I’m not proud of this — do you feel you need to get back in their face to restore harmony to the universe because you’re so damn important? 

When you get to the point where you notice more people’s lives and you notice your own, you create more economic value than absorb, you listen to more complaints, you, you break up more fights than you start, you add surplus value. That’s what it means to be a man. And that’s what I hope for my boys. And again, see above, take care of your mother. 

SREENIVASAN: Entrepreneur, podcaster, and author, Scott Galloway. Thanks so much. The book is called “Notes on Being a Man.”

GALLOWAY: Thank you Hari.