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>> HELLO EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
REPORTING FROM WINDSOR, A ROYAL WELCOME FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THIS HISTORIC SECOND STATE VISIT.
I SPEAK TO TRUMP'S SUPPORTER GORDON SONDLAND WHO SERVED AS THE U. S. AMBASSADOR TO THE EU UNDER TRUMP 1.
0.
AND BRITAIN'S FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE U. S. PLUS AS THE U. S. AND U. K. AGREE ON A TECH PACT, THE INVENTER OF THE WORLDWIDE WEB TELLS US WHY HE IS OPTIMISTIC ABOUT AI.
>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN WINDSOR INSIDE THE CASTLE GROUNDS WHERE BRITAIN IS THROWING ALL THE ROYAL PAGEANTRY IT CAN MUSTER AT PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR THE U. S. LEADERS UNPRECEDENTED SECOND STATE VISIT HERE.
WITH NATIONAL ANTHEMS, MILITARY PARADES, AND A STATE BANQUET TO BE HOSTED HERE AT WINDSOR CASTLE WHICH IS DECKED OUT IN STARS AND STRIPES.
THE PRESIDENT AND THE FIRST LADY WERE GREETED EARLIER BY THE KING AND QUEEN.
THE PRINCE AND PRINCESS OF WALES WERE THERE AS WELL.
THEN A PROCESSION OF CARRIAGES MADE ITS WAY THROUGH THE WINDSOR ESTATE.
THE PRESIDENT AND THE KING RIDING IN THE FIRST.
THE QUEEN AND FIRST LADY RIDING IN THE SECOND.
ONE THING THE U. S. PRESIDENT WON'T SEE MUCH OF, THOUGH, THE BRITISH PEOPLE.
FOR THE PUBLIC HERE, TRUMP IS UNPOPULAR, ACCORDING TO MOST POLLS, BUT OVER IN LONDON, PROTESTERS DID MAKE THEIR VOICES HEARD.
ROYAL CORRESPONDENT MAX FOSTER IS HERE WITH ME AND WE ARE JUST GOING TO DISCUSS THIS FIRST DAY OF THIS INCREDIBLE STATE VISIT.
SO, NOBLE CAN BE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF UNIMPRESSED BY WHAT, OR JADED BY WHAT THIS EVENT ACTUALLY IS.
IT IS UNBELIEVABLE THE WAY THE BRITISH DO IT.
BUT WHAT IS THE UNDERLYING HOPE FOR THEM FOR TRUMP?
>> THAT HE HAD A GOOD TIME.
LITERALLY.
THAT IS HOW THE PALACE DESCRIBED IT.
THAT'S THEIR JOB TODAY.
TO SHOW HIM A GOOD TIME AND INGRATIATE HIM AND SHOW HIM THAT HE IS THE MOST SPECIAL VISITOR THAT HAS EVER BEEN TO THIS CASTLE.
LITERALLY IN TERM OF NUMBERS.
WE HAVE NEVER SEEN MILITARY POMP AND PAGEANTRY ON THIS LEVEL IN TERMS OF HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE ON THE ESCORT, ALSO IN THE WELCOME AND THE BANDS.
SO MUCH OF AMERICA WAS INTEGRATED INTO IT AS WELL.
THIS WAS AN INTERESTING MOMENT LOOKING AT THE ROYAL COLLECTION.
NORMALLY, YOU WOULD SEE THE KING SHOWING ALL THE POSITIVE PARTS OF THE BRITISH AMERICAN RELATIONSHIP.
BUT THEY WENT RIGHT BACK TO EARLY COLONIALISM.
AND MOVING INTO HOW THEY LOST THE FIGHT FOR INDEPENDENCE OF COURSE.
THEY ARE SAYING IT IS A COMPLICATED PAST.
YOU CAN'T BEAT THE BOMB WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.
>> AS WE LOOK AT THESE PICTURES, THE CARRIAGES TOOK THE PRESIDENT, FIRST LADY, THE KING AND THE QUEEN THROUGH THESE INCREDIBLE GROUNDS.
THEY DIDN'T MEET WITH OR INTERFACE AT ALL WITH THE BRITISH PUBLIC.
APART FROM THE POMP AND THE PAGEANTRY, APART FROM MAKE SURE HE HAD A GOOD TIME, HE SAID THIS WILL BE GREAT.
YOU KNOW.
HE REALLY LIKES BRITAIN, THE BRITISH ROYAL FAMILY.
THE POMP AND THE PAGEANTRY.
BUT IT IS ALSO ABOUT DEALS AND THE ECONOMY.
ABOUT INVESTMENT INTO THIS COUNTRY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN THEY TALK BUSINESS TOMORROW BETWEEN TRUMP AND THE PRIME MINISTER?
>> THE MAIN ISSUE HAS BEEN THE TRADE DEAL.
THAT IS WHAT STARMER HAS BEEN DESPERATE TO BRING IN.
HE IS VERY WEAK POLITICALLY.
THE OUTLYING DEAL IS THERE.
BUT THEY WANTED TO FLESH OUT THE DETAILS.
AND DOWNING STREET THEY ARE VERY MUCH PLAYING THAT DOWN NOW.
THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN WE THINK.
THE TECH DEALS YOU TALKED ABOUT ARE INTERESTING.
THEN POSSIBLY SOMETHING ON UKRAINE OR A COMMITMENT TO NATO.
THAT IS WHAT STARMER NEEDS AS A WIN.
THIS IS PART OF THE WARMUP.
THEY ARE A TOOL REALLY FOR THE FOREIGN OFFICE.
RIGHT?
>> IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN.
IT IS SO INTERESTING.
TINA BROWN WHO IS A LONG TIME ROYAL OBSERVER AND WRITER, EDITOR OF THE MOST STORIED MAGAZINES IN THE UNITED STATES, SHE WROTE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES IN OUR WORLD OF TOTAL CHAOS AND SHAMBLES AND UNBELIEVABLY POISONOUS POLITICAL DIVISIONS FROM THE UNITED STATES ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE WORLD, THE KING, KING CHARLES, REALLY STANDS OUT AS A FORCE FOR STABILITY AND HISTORY REALLY EXPERIENCE IN THE WORLD.
HE IS OVER 70.
BEEN KING IN WAITING SO MANY YEARS AND COMES TO IT REALLY SEASONED HAVING SEEN THE WHOLE WORLD AND MET WITH SO MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF POLITICAL LEADERS INCLUDING MANY U. S. PRESIDENTS AND HAS HIS OWN VIEW ON THE ENVIRONMENT OF SUPPORTING ZELENSKYY AND UKRAINE.
>> OUR WHITE HOUSE TEAM HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS.
THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE.
WITH TRUMP AND BRITISH ROYALS THERE IS A PARTICULAR DIFFERENCE.
IF YOU SHOW ANY OF THEM, HE IS ALLOWING CHARLES TO TAKE THE LEAD ALL THE TIME AND HE NEVER DOES THAT WITH ANY OTHER LEADER IN THE WORLD AND THAT IS INTERESTING.
BUT THE QUEEN.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ROYAL COLLECTION, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE GONE RIGHT BACK TO THE NEGATIVE PARK.
SHE WOULD CELEBRATE THE POSITIVE PARTS.
CHARLES JUST A BIT INTO THIS POLITICAL TERRITORY.
HE MIGHT SPEAK TO THE POPE.
IT WOULD BE INTERESTED HEARING THAT.
WE WILL GET SOME SPEECHES COMING UP.
WE HAVE THE STATE BANQUET ABOUT TO START.
BUT I THINK AGAIN, THAT WILL BE ABOUT THE LONG TERM RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THESE TWO NATIONS.
>> JUST HAS TO BE ALSO SAID THAT THIS ISN'T JUST A KUMBAYHAY AND TRUMP IS A CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES.
HE COMES WHEN THINGS ARE SO DIFFICULT IN THE U. S. HIGHLIGHTED BY THE ASSASSINATION OF THE CLOSE ALLY CHARLIE KIRK IN THE UNITED STATES.
THE YOUTH CONSERVATIVE LEADER.
BEFORE THAT, THE MURDERS OF DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS IN JUNE IN MINNESOTA IS A TERRIBLE MOMENT.
THE MAYOR OF LONDON WROTE ALSO AN OP ED TODAY IN WHICH HE SAID AND HE SAID THERE IS NO LOVE LOST BETWEEN THEM.
TRUMP IS A FIGURE WHO HAS BEEN FANNING THE FLAMES OF POLITICAL DIVISIVENESS AND HATRED AND I WONDER HOW THAT WILL GO DOWN.
PEOPLE EXPECT THE PRESIDENT TO POUR THAT BALM OF UNITY.
NOT JUST NATIONAL UNITY BUT GLOBAL UNITY AND PEOPLE HOPE THAT WILL HAPPEN.
>> THEY ARE HOPING HE WILL SPEAK TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH WHICH IS A SENSITIVE ISSUE AND QUITE A CONFUSING ONE.
IT IS A DIFFERENT VIEW IN AMERICA TO HERE.
>> I THINK FREEDOM OF SPEECH AS USED BY POLITICIANS TODAY IS VERY MUCH, IT IS MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH VERSUS YOURS.
>> I DON'T SEE DONALD TRUMP HELD UP AS A PINUP FOR THE FAR RIGHT IN THE U. K. THE SAME WAY AS HE MIGHT BE IN PARTS OF EUROPE AND IT IS REALLY ABOUT ELON MUSK AND HOW HE HAS FANNED THE FLAMES OF ALL OF THAT HERE.
THERE IS A DEEP LOVE FOR AMERICA IN THIS COUNTRY AND THE PUBLIC SEPARATES TRUMP FROM THAT.
SO I THINK THE PALACE HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO DO THIS BUT IN THE STREETS OF LONDON THERE IS FRUSTRATION THEY ARE NOT GETTING TO BE SEEN BY HIM AS WELL.
SO WHAT SORT OF STATE VISIT HAS THIS BEEN IN SUCH A PRIVATE SETTING WHEN REALLY IT IS MEANT TO BE SHARED BY THE WHOLE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM?
THAT IS ONE OF THE DEBATES THAT WILL COME UP BUT THE POLITICS WILL COME UP TOMORROW AND IT WILL BE TOUGH FOR STARMER.
>> WE WILL KEEP WATCHING THIS BECAUSE AGAIN, THIS ONE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE WORLD AND THAT IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND ALL THESE ISSUES WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HAVE DEPENDED ON HIS ENGAGEMENT AND HIM USING HIS UNIQUE LEVERAGE OF THE WORLD'S ONLY SUPERPOWER.
THE REAL BUSINESS BEGINS WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL MEET PRIME MINISTER KEIR STARMER.
OUR NEXT GUEST, HE KNOWS PERSONALLY WHAT IT IS LIKE TO DEAL WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.
HE IS GORDON SONDLAND.
HE SERVED AS HIS AMBASSADOR BEFORE HE WAS FIRED IN THE WAKE OF TESTIFYING IN THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.
HE JOINS ME FROM NEW YORK.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
WITH ALL THAT BUILD UP AND I GUESS YOU HAVE BEEN WATCHING REALLY THE HOSTING THAT TRUMP HAS REALLY RECEIVED HERE FROM THE KING OF ENGLAND.
WHAT DO YOU THINK BRITAIN CAN EXPECT OUT OF ALL OF THIS HAVING GONE THE EXTRA MILES?
>> GOOD AFTERNOON, CHRISTIANE.
I THINK WHAT BRITAIN CAN EXPECT IS THE WARMER OF RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE UNITED STATES.
IT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT REALLY SUPPORTED THE ENTIRE BREXIT MOVEMENT.
HE WAS BEHIND THAT ALL THE WAY.
HE HAS HIS OWN ISSUES WITH THE EU AT LARGE AND I THINK HE FEELS A SPECIAL AFFECTION AND KINSHIP NOT JUST FOR THE U. K. BUT FOR THE BRITISH PEOPLE AND PARTICULARLY FOR THE MONARCHY.
ONE OF THE REASONS YOU MENTIONED HE ALLOWS THE KING TO SORT OF TAKE THE LEAD WHERE HE WOULDN'T DO THAT IN ANY OTHER COUNTRY, EVEN IN THE FACE OF THAT PARTICULAR COUNTRY'S LEADER WHERE YOU WOULD THINK HE WOULD DO THAT BUT HE WOULDN'T.
IN THE CASE OF KING CHARLES, HE VIEWS THE KING AND HIS MOTHER QUEEN ELIZABETH AS THE REAL DEAL.
HE DOESN'T VIEW ALL LEADERS AND ALL MONARCHS AS THE REAL DEAL BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE U. K. MONARCHY, TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEY ARE THE REAL DEAL.
THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND FOREVER.
THEY WILL BE AROUND FOREVER.
AND HE HAS A SPECIAL REVERENCE FOR THAT INSTITUTION.
>> YOU MENTIONED BREXIT AS IF IT WAS SOMETHING EVERYONE LIKED.
THEY DIDN'T.
CERTAINLY THE GOVERNMENT OF KIER STARMER AND MOST OF THE LABOR POLITICIANS DIDN'T LIKE IT AND DIDN'T WANT IT IN THE POLLS HERE HAVE CHANGED SO BUT HAVING SAID THAT, THERE IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT LIKELIHOOD THAT TRUMP POLITICS, IE, MAGA STYLE POLITICS COULD FIND THEIR WAY INTO LEADERSHIP HERE IN THE U. K. RIGHT NOW, THE REFORM PARTY IS AHEAD IN THE POLLS.
IT IS A LONG WAY FROM ANY ELECTION.
BUT IT IS AHEAD IN THE POLLS.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE, THEN, OF THAT, OF THE THE SORT OF TRANSIMPORTANTATION OF AMERICAN POLICIES OVER HERE IN TERMS OF POPULISM AND NATIONALISM?
>> A COUPLE OF THINGS TO UNPACK THERE, WHILE I UNDERSTAND THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT DOES NOT LIKE BREXIT BECAUSE IT WAS SUCCESSFULLY EXECUTED.
I THINK THAT TRUMP FEELS SORT OF A SPECIAL, I DON'T WANT TO USE THE WORD RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE THAT IS PROBABLY TOO STRONG OF A WORD BUT I THINK HE FEELS HE NOW HAS A ROLE TO PLAY IN MAKING SURE THAT THE U. K. IS SUCCESSFUL INDEPENDENTLY AND THE U. K. U. S. IS SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IT IS SORT OF THE OLD STORY.
WELL, YOU ENCOURAGED US TO LEAVE.
WE LEFT.
NOW YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THIS WORKS OUT FOR EVERYONE AND I THINK THAT IS ALWAYS ON HIS MIND.
I'M SORRY I DON'T RECALL YOUR SECOND QUESTION.
>> DON'T WORRY.
I WILL CONTINUE.
THAT IS AN INTERESTING WAY OF PUTTING IT BECAUSE I THINK TRUMP ACTUALLY SAID THAT IT HASN'T BEEN VERY WELL IMPLEMENTED.
CERTAINLY IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMY, BRITAIN IS SUFFERING FOR MANY ASPECTS OF WHAT BREXIT BROUGHT IN.
BUT WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS WE HAVE SEEN THE MANY OF THE MAJOR TECH FIRMS, THE AI AND CHIP FIRMS SAYING THEY WILL PUT TENS OF BILLION OF DOLLARS OF INVESTMENTS INTO THIS COUNTRY.
AND MAKE A JOINT AI HUB OR PLATFORM.
THAT IS HAPPENING BUT ON THE SAME STAGE, WE HAVE NOT GOT THE TRADE DEAL.
THEY HOPE TO HAVE THE STEEL TARIFFS AND THINGS SORTED OUT BEFORE THIS VISIT BUT IT DIDN'T WORK.
THE U. S. DIDN'T BEND ON THESE HUGE TARIFFS THEY PUT ON U. K. STEEL SO AGAIN, WHERE DO YOU THINK PRIME MINISTER STARMER CAN TRY TO AGAIN SOFTEN THE EDGES, TRY TO USE THIS TRIP AS ONE TO SAY HEY, WE WANT TO HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU BUT WE ALSO DON'T WANT TO CRASH OUR ECONOMY FOR YOU.
>> I THINK THE TRADE DEAL IS ABSOLUTELY ON TRACK.
WE HAVE ALL OF A SUDDEN CHANGED OUR PERCEPTION OF HOW QUICKLY THESE THINGS MOVE.
IF YOU REMEMBER TEA TIP, THAT COLLAPSED OF ITS OWN WEIGHT.
IT TOOK FOREVER AND IT GOT NOWHERE.
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ONLY BEEN IN OFFICE FOR WHAT, NINE MONTHS?
BARELY NINE MONTHS AND THE AMOUNT OF PROGRESS THAT HAS BEEN MADE IN TERMS OF FLESHING OUT SOME OF THE DETAILS HAS BEEN EXTRAORDINARY.
THESE THINGS NORMALLY TAKE YEARS SO I THINK YOU HAVE TO ALLOW THE MOMENTUM TO SLOW DOWN, SPEED UP, JUST LET THE THING HAPPEN AND I DON'T THINK STARMER NEEDS TO TAKE ANY EDGES OFF.
I DON'T THINK THERE ARE ANY EDGES.
THE SECOND VISIT PROPOSED BY THE GOVERNMENT AND AGREED TO BY KING CHARLES IS EXTRAORDINARY.
AND YES, IT IS A SUCK UP TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT IT IS ALSO A SUCK UP TO AMERICA AND I SAY THAT IN THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY.
WE SHOULD SUCK UP TO ONE ANOTHER.
WE ARE THE CLOSEST OF ALLIES AND ALWAYS WILL BE.
NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS AND HOW MANY BARBS WE EXCHANGE IN THE COURSE OF A BUSINESS NEGOTIATION, THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP.
SO I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING AND WHAT IS UNFOLDING, CHRISTIANE, IS SUPERB.
>> LOOK.
AGAIN, I TAKE YOUR POINT.
MAYBE BRITAIN DOESN'T NEED TO SOFTEN ANY EDGES BUT THEY DO HAVE DIFFERENCES.
THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS 100% ROCK SOLID FOR THEIR MAJOR EXISTENTIAL SUPREME ISSUE AND THAT IS RUSSIA'S ATTACK ON UKRAINE.
THE VIEW IS THAT TRUMP IS CONSTANTLY BEING DRAGGED ALONG BY PUTIN.
STRUNG ALONG AS HE ONCE SAID AND AS OTHERS HAVE SAID AND HE HAS STILL NOT IMPOSED THE STRONG ISSUES.
SANCTIONS.
THEY COULD BE LEVELED BUT HAVEN'T BEEN.
SO WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS NOT HAPPENING?
>> LET'S LOOK AT IT FROM THE UNITED STATES' PERSPECTIVE FOR A MOMENT.
THE UNITED STATES PREVIOUSLY HAS ALWAYS BEEN ASKED TO SHOULDER BOTH THE FINANCIAL AND THE MILITARY LIABILITY ON ANY SKIRMISH HAPPENING IN EUROPE.
WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DOING IS WORKING ON TWO FRONTS.
TRYING TO FREE UP MILITARY RESOURCES TO DEAL WITH THE CHINA PROBLEM WHICH IS A PROBLEM FOR BOTH U. S. AND EUROPE AND IT IS NOT A PROBLEM THAT EUROPE CAN HANDLE.
IT IS ONLY A PROBLEM THAT THE U. S. CAN HANDLE AS THE TIP OF THE SPEAR.
WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO IS TRANSITION THE ROLE OF TIP OF THE SPEAR TO EUROPE AND LET EUROPE TAKE THE LEAD.
HE HAS BEEN PING-PONGING WITH PUTIN BACK AND FORTH FOR THE LAST SAY SIX MONTHS TRYING TO GIVE PUTIN ENOUGH QUARTER TO SEE IF HE IS ACTUALLY WILLING NOT JUST TO MAKE A DEAL IN UKRAINE, BUT ACTUALLY TO COME WESTWARD AND DEAL WITH THE UNITED STATES AS A PARTNER AGAINST CHINA.
THAT APPEARS NOT TO BE HAPPENING BECAUSE PUTIN WAKES UP EVERY MORNING TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO TAKE MORE OF UKRAINE AND I THINK TRUMP HAS FINALLY HAD HIS FILL OF THAT AND IS GOING TO PUSH EUROPE TO DO AS MUCH AS IT POSSIBLY CAN WITH THE UNITED STATES BACKING INTELLIGENCE, AIR SUPPORT AND LOGISTICS.
AND LET EUROPE BE THE BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE AND I DO BELIEVE IT WILL BE VITAL TO HAVE EUROPEAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE.
>> WHICH PUTIN HAS SAID IS A NONSTARTER.
>> YEAH BUT WHO CARE.
>> ACCORDING TO THE WHITE HOUSE READ-OUT DIDN'T GET MUCH FROM PUTIN WHEN HI GAVE HIM THE HONORS IN ALASKA.
THEY DID THAT THING IN BEIJING WHERE THEY REALLY CHALLENGED THE WORLD'S SUPERPOWER.
BASICALLY SAYING HEY, WE WANT, WHY SHOULD WE LISTEN TO YOUR RULES OF THE ROAD?
WE WANT OUR OWN.
SO THERE IS THAT PART OF IT AND THEN UKRAINE.
YOU KNOW A LOT ABOUT UKRAINE.
THAT EVEN BEFORE THIS TRIP, I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO.
EVERY TIME HE IS ASKED ABOUT THE PUTIN, ZELENSKYY DEBACLE HERE, HE TENDS TO EQUATE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT AND FOR ENDING IT.
>> HE IS TRYING TO GIVE PUTIN EVERY POSSIBLE OFF RAMP TO MAKE A DEAL WITH ZELENSKYY.
TRUMP KNOWS WHO INVADED WHOM.
THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO IS DEAL WITH A PEER NUCLEAR POWER AND NOT DRAG THE UNITED STATES INTO WHAT COULD GO FROM A CONVENTIONAL KINETIC WAR.
SO, NOW, HE HAS BEEN IN A SITUATION WHERE THE NORTH KOREANS, THE CHINESE, THE RUSSIANS HAVE HAD THEIR PARTY IN BEIJING.
HE TWEETED I'M GLAD YOU ARE ALL THERE CONSPIRING AGAINST US.
HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON.
AND I THINK WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SEE NOW IS IF THE EUROPEANS STEP UP WITH ARMS, WITH BOOTS ON THE GROUND, I THINK THE UNITED STATES WILL BE RIGHT BEHIND THEM IN TERMS OF PROVIDING MONEY, WEAPONS, AIR SUPPORT, INTELLIGENCE, AND OTHER HELP.
WITHOUT PUTTING AMERICAN SOLDIERS ON THE GROUND.
WE NEED TO SAVE THOSE FOR THE TAIWAN PROBLEM.
>> YOU KNOW, THE EUROPEANS HAVE SAID THEY WILL DO THAT.
BUT I WANT TO MOVE ONTO ONE OTHER THING WHICH IS KIND OF CRITICAL.
BECAUSE THIS VISIT IS HAPPENING IN THE WAKE OF THAT TERRIBLE ASSASSINATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF A KEY ALLY AND FRIEND OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.
AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
MANY OF THEM SAID HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR CHARLIE KIRK, THE PRESIDENT WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN THE YOUTH VOTE HE GOT.
AND THIS IS, AGAIN, FLAMING A LOT OF DIVISION IN THE U. S. AND THERE IS A FEAR IN THE U. S. THIS COULD BE USED TO REALLY CRACK DOWN ON TRUMP OR THE ADMINISTRATION'S OPPOSITION.
I WANT TO READ YOU SOMETHING THAT THE CURRENT MAYOR OF LONDON WROTE.
WAS CALLING OUT TRUMP FOR VARIOUS POLICIES.
HE HAS WRITTEN PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAS PERHAPS DONE THE MOST TO FAN THE FLAMES OF DIVISIVE FAR RIGHT POLITICS AROUND THE WORLD IN RECENT YEARS, SCAPEGOATING MINORITIES.
, DEPLOYING THE MILITARY.
THESE ARE STRAIGHT OUT OF THE AUTO CAT'S PLAY BOOK.
TWO SENIOR LEADERS OF GERMANY'S FAR RIGHT.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS WARNING BY THE LONDON MAYOR?
>> WELL FIRST OF ALL, I AM A CENTER RIGHT AND I SUPPORT NIGEL FARAGE.
I LIKE HIM VERY MUCH.
DO I AGREE WITH 100% OF WHAT HE SAYS?
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
AS FAR AS KHAN IS CONCERNED, HE IS EMBLEMATIC OF THE PROBLEM WE HAVE IN A LOT OF U. S. CITIES RUN BY FAR LEFT MAYORS.
THE CITIES JUST DON'T DO WELL IN THE LONG TERM.
THE PEOPLE DON'T DO WELL, THE ECONOMY DOESN'T DO WELL AND IT IS NOT A GOOD LOOK FOR MOST OF OUR CITY THAT'S ARE RUN BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE SAME POLITICAL VIEWS AS KHANMENT I DON'T THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP GIVES A RIP ABOUT WHAT KHAN THINKS.
>> DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT CARES ABOUT HIS ALLIES?
BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE WHEN THE U. S. LEVERAGES ITS UNIQUE LEVERAGE AND WHEN IT USES IT TO RESOLVE GLOBAL ISSUES, TO HELP BRING WORLD PEACE, IT CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
SOME HAVE SAID, MANY ANALYSTS HAVE SAID THAT HE SEEMS TO BE, LET ME JUST GET THAT STRAIGHT SO I CAN READ IT PROPERLY.
WHEN ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES ALIKE APPEAR TO BE IGNORING HIM, HE ADOPTS A WHAT CAN YOU DO SHRUG AS IF HE IS AN OBSERVER WITH MINOR STAKES IN THE OUT COME.
THEY REFER TO PUTIN, THEY REFER TO NETANYAHU.
ESSENTIALLY APPEARING TO GET HIS WAY ALL THE TIME EVEN WHEN TRUMP SAYS I AM NOT HAPPY.
>> IT IS A BRILLIANT STRATEGY BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU HAVE SEEN A BINARY RESPONSE FROM THE U. S. UNDER PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS.
THEY HAVE TO OWN EVERY WORLD PROBLEM WHETHER IT IS OUR PROBLEM OR NOT OR THEY ARE COMPLETELY UNINVOLVED IN THE WORLD PROBLEM AT HAND.
THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.
THOSE ARE THE TWO BINARY EXTREMES.
WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES IS HE CONTINUOUSLY TOGGLES BETWEEN YES WE HAVE AN INTEREST IN THIS PROBLEM BUT WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES THAT HAVE AN INTEREST IN THIS PROBLEM AND THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS LIKE THE UKRAINE PROBLEM, IF YOU WANT TO GRADE INTEREST ON A SCALE OF ONE TO TEN.
EUROPE IS AT A 10 AND WE ARE MAYBE AT A 6 OR A 7 SO EUROPE NEEDS TO TAKE THE LEAD.
THAT IS WHY HE TOGGLES BETWEEN THERE IS NOTHING MORE I CAN DO.
THIS IS REALLY THEIR PROBLEM.
I TRIED TO ALL OF A SUDDEN INTERVENING WHEN HE SEES AN OPPORTUNITY TO FIX THE TRAIN CAR THAT HAS GOTTEN OFF THE RAILS AND SEE IF IT CAN PROCEED DOWN ITS JOURNEY.
BUT THIS IS A VERY, VERY WISE WAY OF NEGOTIATING WHEN YOU OWN PART OF A PROBLEM BUT NOT THE ENTIRE PROBLEM.
AND THE UNITED STATES HAS RARELY DONE THAT.
>> GORDON SONDLAND, TRUMP'S FORMER EU AMBASSADOR, THANKS FOR JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
> >> AS THE GRAND BANQUET GETS UNDERWAY IN THE CASTLE, IT IS NOT ALL POMP AND CEREMONY ON THIS VISIT.
AMONG MANY URGENT ISSUES ARE THE WAR IN GAZA.
WHAT CAN THIS VISIT ACHIEVE ON THOSE FRONTS?
WELL, ONCE WORKED AS PRIVATE DEPUTY SECRETARY TO THEN PRINCE CHARLES.
AND HE IS JOINING US RIGHT NOW.
FROM LONDON.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I WONDER WHAT YOU MUST BE THINKING ALREADY?
YOU HAVE BEEN WATCHING ALL THE PAGEANTRY KNOWING THERE WILL BE REAL POLITICAL MEETINGS TOMORROW.
WHAT SHOULD BRITAIN EXPECT?
>> FIRST THING, THE SUN ISN'T SHINING AND THE SKY ISN'T BLUE.
THIS IS A PRETTY SPECIAL BIT OF PAGEANTRY THAT HAS BEEN PUT ON BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
A SHORTER STATE VISIT THAN WE SOMETIMES GET BUT THERE ARE ELEMENTS THERE.
THIS IS PARTLY BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP, THIS IS SPECIAL.
HE REGARDS HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ROYAL FAMILY AS SOMETHING UNIQUE.
SO WE ARE PUTTING ON A SHOW FOR HIM THAT MAKES HIM FEEL VERY POSITIVE ABOUT THE KINGDOM AND THE ROYAL FAMILY AND THE UNITED KINGDOM MORE GENERALLY.
IT IS THE KIND OF PAGEANTRY AND PROTOCOL AND SPECIAL TREATMENT WHICH THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE WISHED.
ON THE SUBSTANCE, CHRISTIANE, THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL THERE.
BUT I SUPPOSE JUST PICKING OUT A COUPLE OF POINTS, IT HAS A BETTER DEAL ON TARIFFS AFTER KIER STARMER'S VISIT TO THE OVAL OFFICE BACK IN FEBRUARY.
BUT IT IS STILL A GOOD DEAL WORSE IN TERMS OF TRADE THAN WHAT WE HAD BEFOREHAND.
IT IS BETTER ON AEROSPACE.
BETTER ON AUTOMOTIVE BUT THERE IS PLENTY MORE TO BE DONE.
ON TRADE POLICY, PARTLY IN EXCHANGE, PERHAPS, FOR TECH COOPERATION AND STRONGER INVESTMENT COMING INTO THE U. K. , I THINK THEY WILL BE HOPING THAT THERE IS PROGRESS THERE.
ON THE FOREIGN POLICY SIDE, THERE IS LOTS TO TALK ABOUT.
I WOULD THINK THE AREA WHERE THE U. K. WILL MOST WANT TO MAKE PROGRESS IS ON DONALD TRUMP'S APPROACH TO UKRAINE FROM THE WESTERN POINT OF VIEW, IT LOOKS AS THOUGH EVERY TIME THERE HAS BEEN AN OPPORTUNITY OR A DEADLINE WHICH TRUMP HAS SET FOR PUTIN TO BEHAVE BETTER, IT PASSES AND THERE IS NO SANCTION AND NOTHING HAPPENS AND HE GETS MORE RED CARPET AND THE MESSAGE THE U. K. WILL WANT TO GET ACROSS IS NOT THAT THIS IS JUST EUROPE'S SECURITY PROGRAM.
THIS REALLY MATTERS FOR THE UNITED STATES AS WELL.
I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE CONVINCED THE PRESIDENT THAT IS THE PLACE.
>> YOU KNOW KING CHARLES.
YOU WORKED FOR HIM.
AND, I JUST WONDER, DO YOU THINK THAT EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT HIS ROLE TO HAVE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS WITH THE PRESIDENT, HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO MAKE IT CLEARER THE ISSUE THAT IS VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE U. S. AND US.
>> IT IS PARTLY ABOUT U. K. NOT GETTING SWALLOWED UP BY RUSSIA BUT IT IS ALSO REMINDING HIM THAT THE UNITED KINGDOM IN PARTICULAR OF ITS EUROPEAN PARTNERS DOES A GREAT DEAL FOR AMERICA'S GLOBAL SECURITY INTERESTS.
AMERICAN BASES ON TERRITORIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE VERY IMPORTANT.
THEY ARE IMPORTANT FOR AMERICA'S SECURITY.
NOT JUST FOR OURS AND EUROPES AND WE HAVE TO GET THAT POINT ACROSS.
WHICH IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.
IS THIS THE JOB OF THE KING OR THE PRIME MINISTER?
YOU WILL SEE WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHING, HE SAID WHAT HE THOUGHT OF WHAT TRUMP SAID ABOUT CANADA BEING FOR THE UNITED STATES AND HE MADE A POINT OF SEEING PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY NOT VERY LONG AFTER HE WAS TREATED NOT VERY KINDLY IN THE O COOL OFFICE.
THERE MAY BE WAYS TO NUDGE THE PRESIDENT IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.
AND LOOK AT THINGS IN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT LIGHT.
I DO KNOW THAT HE IS NOT A SHRINKING VIOLET.
>> AND DO YOU THINK THE KING WILL SPEAK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP ABOUT HIS LOVE OF THE ENVIRONMENT, HIS LIFELONG ATTEMPT TO RECTIFY THE TERRIBLE POLLUTION AND ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION OF CLIMATE CHANGE?
AS WE KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PULLED THE U. S. AGAIN OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD AND ACTUALLY, NOT ONLY ROLLED BACK PROTECTIONS IN THE U. S. BUT ALSO BASICALLY CALLING ON THE REST OF HIS ALLIES AND AROUND THE WORLD TO ROLL BACK THEIR GREEN AGENDAS AS WELL.
>> I MEAN, HE COULD.
AND WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE A NUMBER OF MAJOR MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES PAYING LESS ATTENTION TO ESG AND THE GREEN AGENDA PARTLY BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEIR INVESTORS WANT AND THE DESIRE FOR ECONOMIC GROWTH AND PROSPERITY AT THE MOMENT, IN THE SHORT TERM, IS OVERTAKING COMPANIES' DESIRE TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
ALL THAT SAID, WE KNOW WHAT THE KING'S VIEWS ARE ON THIS SUBJECT.
THEY ARE DEEPLY FELT AND HE WAS WAY AHEAD OF THE CURVE.
BUT HE IS ALSO CONSCIOUS AS A MONARCH.
LIMITED NUMBER OF ISSUES WHERE HE SHOULD GET INTO GOVERNMENTAL BUSINESS SO IT WOULDN'T BE SURPRISING IF HE TOUCHED ON IT BUT MY GUESS IS HE WILL PROBABLY PREFER TO FOCUS ON ISSUES WHERE THERE IS A CHANCE OF MOVING DONALD TRUMP IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION RATHER THAN ONE HE WOULD JUST BE SPEAKING FOR THE RECORD BUT TO NO EFFECT.
>> YOU WROTE RECENTLY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS VISIT THAT BRITAIN NEEDS TO GET MORE TRANSACTIONAL.
TRUMP IS TRANSACTIONAL, BRITAIN NEEDS TO DO THE SAME.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
>> IT WAS PARTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING TO REMIND THE UNITED STATES THAT EUROPEANS ARE NOT ALL JUST A BUNCH OF FREE LOADERS.
LEAST OF ALL THE UNITED KINGDOM.
I THINK THE PRESIDENT SLIGHTLY EXCLUDES THE U. K. FROM HIS MORE GENERAL VIEW STRICTURES ON THE EUROPEAN UNION BUT I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SURE HE REALIZES THE BRITISH TAXPAYERS WILL PAY BILLIONS OF POUNDS TO MAKE SURE THEY CONTINUE TO USE DIEGO GARCIA WHERE BRITS WILL BE PICKING UP THE BILLMENT IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE SPORT DEFENSE AND INTELLIGENCE .
I'M NOT SUGGESTING THERE ARE QUID PRO QUOS BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE COUNTER THE IDEA THAT IT IS ALL TAKE BY THE EUROPEANS.
WE SHOULD NOT BE SHY IN REMINDING TRUMP OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THEUNITED KINGDOM'S IMPORTANCE.
THERE ARE BASES THAT ARE VERY IMPORTANT FOR AMERICAN SUBMARINES.
THERE ARE EARLY MORNING SYSTEMS ON BRITISH TERRITORY.
THERE IS A LOT OF STUFF THAT MATTERS AND I SOMETIMES WONDER WHETHER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ADEQUATELY INFORMED ABOUT THE REAL CONTRIBUTION THAT WE ALL DO MAKE.
>> I WANT TO PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT OF A SOUND THAT, A SOUND BITE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP EARLIER WHEN THE GANG OF EUROPEAN LEADERS, A GROUP OF EUROPEAN LEADERS WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW HE WAS BEING CALLED SORT OF KING OF EUROPE OR PRESIDENT OF EUROPE.
HERE IS WHAT HE SAID.
>> I THINK OUR NATION NOW IS THE MOST RESPECTED NATION ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD BY FAR.
YOU SAW THAT WITH THE EUROPEAN LEADERS.
ON FRIDAY.
YOU SAW THAT WITH NATO WHERE THEY AGREED TO GO 2% NO PAY, 5% FULLY PAID UP.
WHERE THEY RESPECT YOUR PRESIDENT TO A LEVEL WHERE THEY JOKINGLY CALL ME THE PRESIDENT OF EUROPE.
THEY CALL ME THE PRESIDENT OF EUROPE WHICH IS AN HONOR.
I LIKE EUROPE AND I LIKE THOSE PEOPLE.
>> I WILL ASK YOU WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT.
ALSO IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE FACT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALIENATED A LOT OF ALLIES.
SO, I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO GET STUFF DONE, LET'S JUST SAY STANDING UP TO CHINA, HE WILL NEED HIS ALLY TO DO SO.
THERE IS A LOT OF ANXIETY LET'S SAY AND A FEELING OF BEING ALIENATED BY THE UNITED STATES.
>> I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.
THE REASON WHY SO MANY EUROPEAN LEADERS RUSHED OFF TO WASHINGTON AFTER THE PUTIN RED CARPET TREATMENT IN ALASKA WAS NOT JUST BECAUSE THEY ALL REGARDED PRESIDENT TRUMP AS THE PRESIDENT OF EUROPE.
THEY WERE WORRIED THAT HE MAY BE GIVING AWAY THE SHOP, IF YOU LIKE, IN EXCHANGE FOR NOTHING TO PRESIDENT PUTIN WHO AFTER ALL HAD MADE VIRTUALLY NO CONCESSIONS OR REASONABLE PROPOSALS ABOUT ENDING THE INVASION OF UKRAINE SO I THINK IT WAS AS MUCH CONCERN AS JUST RESPECT.
OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO APPRECIATE THAT DONALD TRUMP IS SOMEBODY WHO LIKES THE ATTENTION AND HE LIKES THE EUROPEAN LEADERS TO TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY.
AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE ARE ATHINK VERY WELL PLACE TODAY HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP IS THAT HE LIKES THE IDEA THAT HE IS NOT JUST THE OPPOSITE NUMBER OF AN ELECTED PRIME MINISTER.
HE IS ALSO THE OPPOSITE NUMBER OF A KING.
THE MONARCHY HAS BEEN THERE FOR CENTURIES AND HE LIKES THE RELATIONSHIP.
AND HE LIKES TREATMENT AND HE LIKES THAT SPECIALNESS.
SO, THAT IS ALL PART AND PARCEL OF DEALING WITH THIS PARTICULAR PRESIDENT.
BUT YOU ARE RIGHT.
A NUMBER OF THE EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE ATTACKS ON FREE TRADE AND THE UNDERSTOOD MINING OF INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND WHAT HE IS DOING TO THE RULE OF LAW.
THE POLITICIZING OF INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICA AND THE CHECKS AND BALANCES BEING ROLLED OVER WITH A COMPLIANT SUPREME COURT AND A CONGRESS WHICH ON MANY ISSUES ISN'T REALLY DOING WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO DO IN TERMS OF STANDING UP INDEPENDENTLY TO WHAT THE EXECUTIVE IS UP TO.
SO I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS ALLIES WHILE DYING TO SEE AMERICA EXERCISE ITS RULE AS THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD EFFECTIVELY, IS CONCERNED BY SOME OF THE DIRECTION.
NOT LEAST ON THESE ISSUES OF FREE TRADE AND PROSPERITY AND INTERNATIONAL SECURITY WHICH MATTER SOS MUCH TO ALL OF US.
>> THANK YOU.
> >> JUST AHEAD OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECOND STATE VISIT, THE U. S. AND THE U. K. UNVEILED A TRANSATLANTIC TECHNOLOGY PACT WITH TOP COMPANIES LIKE GOOGLE AND MICROSOFT PLEDGING SOME $42 BILLION IN INVESTMENTS TO DEVELOP BRITAIN'S AI INFRASTRUCTURE, IN THE AGE OF SOCIAL MEDIA, THE ONLINE LANDSCAPE IS MORE CHALLENGING THAN EVER FOR CIVIL SOCIETY.
A FAR CRY FROM WHAT THE INVENTER OF THE WORLDWIDE WEB INTENDED TO CREATE.
AS HE LAYS OUT NOW IN HIS NEW MEMOIR, THIS IS FOR EVERYONE.
HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN WHY HE IS STILL OPTIMISTIC ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.
>> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU.
GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> I TEACH THE HISTORY OF THE DIGITAL REVOLUTION AT TULANE UNIVERSITY AND MY STUDENTS ARE ALWAYS SURPRISED THAT THE WEB DIDN'T JUST SPRING OUT OF NOTHING.
THAT A REAL PERSON INVENTED IT AND THAT PERSON IS YOU.
TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE INVENTED THE WEB.
>> THEY ARE AMAZED THAT I AM ACTUALLY ALIVE.
THEY CAN PUT ME IN THEIR PROJECT.
INVENTING THE WEB, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THAT THE INTERNET AND THE WEB ARE DIFFERENT.
THE INTERNET IS THE UNDERSTOOD LYING NETWORK.
INVENTED AROUND 1969.
30 YEARS LATER IT WAS ALL OVER AMERICA.
THE PROGRAMS THAT INTRODUCED THE WEB WERE PRETTY CRUMMY.
YOU HAD TO BE AN EXPERT REALLY TO USE THE INTERNET.
THERE WAS NO WEB.
INVENTING THE WEB MEANT TAKING THIS IDEA OF LINKS AND CLICKING ON LINKS AND COMBINING IT WITH THE IDEA OF THE INTERNET SO YOU END UP WITH THE CONCEPT OF A LINK THAT COULD GO ANYWHERE.
>> YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE PARTICLE ACCELERATOR IN GENEVA.
YOU INVENTED IT BECAUSE YOU HAD TO ORGANIZE ALL THE INFORMATION THERE.
AND TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT ENVIRONMENT LED TO THE WEB.
>> PEOPLE COME FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
THEY HAVE THIS HUGE CHALLENGE.
THEY HAVE THE ACCELERATOR.
SO, IT IS A HUGE PROJECT.
PEOPLE COMING FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE.
AND THEY BRING ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT CULTURES.
SO WHEN I TRIED TO HELP THEM PUT THE WHOLE THING TOGETHER, THEN I FOUND THAT JUST THE STATE OF INFORMATION WAS TRICKY.
I FOUND IN FACT THOUGH THEY HAD SOME DOCUMENTATION SYSTEMS, WHAT WAS CRUCIAL WAS BRINGING PEOPLE TO COFFEE.
YOU ARE INVITING PEOPLE TO COFFEE.
THERE WAS A COFFEE PLACE, A COFFEE AREA.
WHERE IF YOU WERE THERE LONG ENOUGH, PEOPLE WOULD BUY.
SO PEOPLE WOULD WALK BY AND YOU COULD PLUCK THEM OUT AND SAY TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
HOW DOES IT WORK.
>> SO YOU WERE BORN IN 1955.
SAME YEAR AS STEVE JOBS, SAME YEAR AS BILL GATES.
BOTH OF, ALL THREE OF YOU INVENTED SOMETHING.
YOU INVENTED A WAY TO NAVIGATE THE INTERNET.
BILL GATES INVENTED THE WHOLE SOFTWARE INDUSTRY.
AND STEVE JOBS INVENTS A NOTION OF AN EASY PLUG AND PLAY PERSONAL COMPUTER.
THEY BECOME BILLIONAIRES.
YOU DON'T.
YOU PUT IT ALL ON THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.
WAS THERE SOMETHING IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT YOU DECIDED NOT TO COMMERCIALIZE IT THE WAY THEY DID?
>> THE WEB IS A PROTOCOL.
IT IS NOT JUST A PROGRAM OR A PRODUCT.
WHEN THE WEB WORKS, ALL OF THE COMPUTERS SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE.
AND THAT'S A BIG ASK.
SO THEY ALL HAVE TO SPEAK HTML AND SO ON.
SO, THAT IS A HUGE ASK.
SO I WANTED THE WEB TO BE USED BY EVERYBODY.
IF IT IS GOING TO BE USED BY EVERYBODY.
IT HAS TO BE FREE OR IT WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED.
>> WE HAVE SEEN RESULTS OF THIS HORRIBLE TOXIC ENVIRONMENT YOU FIND ONLINE, OF COURSE, WE HAVE GONE THROUGH A REALLY HORRIBLE WEEK.
THE PAST WEEK.
AND YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT THE WEB MOVED AWAY FROM WHAT YOU WANTED AND IT BECAME A PLACE OF A CULTURE OF GRIEVANCE AND HOSTILE ACTIVISM AND HARASSING PEOPLE ONLINE OR COMMITTING VIOLENCE IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED ON THE SOCIAL MEDIA PART OF THE WEB.
EXPLAIN HOW THAT HAPPENED.
>> IT IS THE WAY SOCIAL MEDIA IS DEFINED.
THE WAY YOU WRITE THE CODE INSIDE THINGS LIKE FACEBOOK.
THEY DO IT IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KEEP YOU ON THE PLATFORM.
THAT MEANS THEY DO IT IN SUCH A WAY AS TO BE, THEY MAKE THE SYSTEMS ADDICTIVE.
I WAS ON INSTAGRAM WHEN IT WAS DIFFERENT.
WHEN I COULD CATCH UP WITH FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
THEN THEY CHANGED IT DELIBERATELY.
THE PEOPLE WHO BUILT INSTAGRAM MAKE IT SO THAT YOU STAY ON THE PLATFORM AND THEY DO IT BY FEEDING YOU THINGS WHICH MAKE YOU FEEL EMOTIONAL.
NOW ON THAT EMOTION IT IS OFTEN HATRED.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE ALGORITHMS WHICH AMPLIFY THINGS AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE COMPANIES AMPLIFY THINGS THAT ENGAGE YOU WHICH BASICALLY MEANS WHAT ENRAGES YOU.
IS THERE ANY WAY TO DO ETHICAL ALGORITHM DESIGN TO MAKE A SOCIAL MEDIA THAT WOULD MORE UNITE US RATHER THAN DIVIDE US?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
INSTEAD OF OPTIMIZING SO PEOPLE ARE ANGRY.
YOU OPTIMIZE PEOPLE BE CONSTRUCTIVE.
THERE ARE THINGS LIKE WICK WIKIPEDIA WHICH IS WONDERFUL.
>> WHAT IF PEOPLE COULD MAKE MORE MONEY DOING THESE ADDICTIVE THINGS?
SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT OR SOMEBODY TRY TO SAY YOU SHOULD NOT DO THESE TYPES OF ALGORITHMS?
>> THERE ARE PLACES THAT DON'T.
PINTEREST FOR EXAMPLE.
>> IT HAS BEEN LEFT BEHIND BY ALL THE ONES THAT ARE MORE ENRAGING AND ENGAGING.
>> YES, YOU COULD LEGISLATE.
>> DIDN'T THE WAY YOU INVENTED THE WEB MAKE IT VERY HARD FOR IT TO BE CONTROLLED BY GOVERNMENTS AND CENTRAL AUTHORITY?
>> BE.
BUT YOU CAN STILL MAKE THINGS ILLEGAL.
FRAUD IS ILLEGAL ON THE WEB.
A LOT OF THINGS.
THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS WHERE WE DECIDED IS ILLEGAL.
SOME PEOPLE HAVE SUGGESTED THAT BECAUSE JUST AS YOU MAKE CERTAIN DRUGS TOO ADDICTIVE TO ALLOW, YOU COULD DO THE SAME THING WITH CERTAIN ALGORITHMS.
>> LET ME PARAPHRASE WHAT CASSIUS SAID TO BRUTUS.
MAYBE THE FAULT IS NOT IN THE ALGORITHM BUT OURSELVES.
THEME ARE POSTING WHAT THEY WANT TO SAY.
LOOKING AT WHAT THEY WANT TO BE ENRAGED BY AND THIS IS JUST PART OF HUMAN NATURE BEING AMPLIFIED BY THE WEB.
>> AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT THAT IS TRUE, BUT WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU ANGRY ONLINE, THEN YOU COULD BLAME THE PERSON WHO POSTED IT.
BUT IF THAT POST WERE CIRCULATED IN A MILLION PEOPLE'S FEEDS YOU COULD BLAME THE ALGORITHM.
THERE ARE BOTH SIDES.
>> SO IN OTHER WORDS, YOU TRY TO RESTRICT A COMPANY NOT FROM ALLOWING POSTS BUT FROM AMPLIFYING IT THROUGH THE ALGORITHM?
>> YEP.
>> DO YOU THINK GOVERNMENT OR SOMEBODY SHOULD REGULATE WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL DISINFORMATION AND OTHER PEOPLE WOULD JUST SAY IS PEOPLE'S FREE SPEECH?
>> IN GENERAL, I THINK IT IS VERY STRUCK I CAN.
THERE ARE SOME THINGS WHICH ARE ILLEGAL.
INCITING VIOLENCE IS ILLEGAL.
THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS WHERE IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE TOXIC ENVIRONMENT OF SOCIAL MEDIA.
ALL BUILT ON THE WEB ARCHITECTURE YOU INVENTED.
DO YOU THINK ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, THE ADVENT OF AI, GIVERS US A CHANCE TO HIT A RESET BUTTON ON THE TOXIC NATURE OF WHAT'S ONLINE?
>> YES.
I DO.
YEAH.
BECAUSE WE ARE THINKING, WE ARE RETHINKING EVERYTHING.
SO YEAH.
AI GIVES US A CHANCE AS YOU SAID TO HIT A RESET BUTTON.
SO WHEN YOU FIGURE OUT HOW AI WORKS, THEN WE CAN INSIST ON AN AI THAT WORKS FOR ME.
NOW WE HAVE MADE ONE.
IF IT WORKS FOR YOU.
SIRI DOESN'T WORK FOR ME.
IT WORKS FOR APPLE.
AND ALEXA WORKS FOR AMAZON.
AND SO WHEN IT MAKES A CHOICE.
I SAY I WANT TO BUY RUNNING SHOES, ALEXA WILL GO THERE THE PROCESS OF SELLING ME RUNNING SHOES LIKE AMAZON DOES.
BY OPERATING THEIR MARKET.
I WANT AN AI NOT FOR AMAZON OR APPLE BUT ME.
AND I WROTE THAT UP.
AND MY COMPANY, WE ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATED THAT YOU COULD DO THAT.
YOU COULD MAKE AN AI YOU TRUST.
THAT WORKS FOR YOU.
YOU GIVE IT ACCESS TO ALL OF YOUR PERSONAL DATA AND IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE.
>> WHEN YOU INVENTED THAT THING, YOU WROTE ABOUT IT A FEW YEARS AGO.
THEY CALLED THEM AGENTS.
IT IS AN AI AGENT THAT WILL BE MY AGENT THAT WILL BOOK MY HOLIDAY OR BUY MY RUNNING SHOES IF I NEEDED THEM.
WHY WOULD THAT AGENT, HOW WOULD YOU MAKE IT DIFFERENT FROM THE AGENTS THAT WE ARE GETTING NOW FROM OUR AI SYSTEMS?
>> WE MAKE IT DIFFERENT, WHEN YOU SET IT UP, YOU TRAIN IT, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU MAKE A COMMERCIAL DECISION.
YOU MAKE SURE IT IS WORKING AS YOUR AGENT.
WITH THE WAY THE AGENT WORKS.
THAT YOU HAVE ALL OF YOUR DATA AND A SOLID DATA WALLET.
IT IS A WAY OF ALLOWING YOU TO HAVE DATA YOU CONTROL.
AND, WHEN YOU START AN APPLICATION, THEN IT ASKS YOU WHERE YOU WANT TO STORE THE DATA AND IT GIVES YOU COMPLETE CONTROL OVER THAT.
IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD FROM THE CURRENT WORLD.
>> THE CURRENT WORLD INSTEAD OF HAVING THIS SOLID DATA WALLET IN WHICH ALL MY DATA IS IN MY CONTROL, WE NOW HAVE A WEB THAT HAS COOKIES.
WHERE AMAZON KNOWS WHAT I HAVE DONE.
WHAT APPLE KNOWS WHAT I HAVE DONE.
AND THEY CAN USE THAT INFORMATION TO MARKET THINGS TO US.
ISN'T THAT A GOOD BUSINESS MODEL TO MAKE THE COMPANIES BE ABLE TO THRIVE?
>> YES.
AND TARGETED ADVERTISING IS TYPICALLY MORE EFFICIENT.
SO, THE WHOLE ADVERTISING BASED BUSINESS.
PEOPLE ARE NOT USING SEARCH ENGINES SO MUCH.
THEY ARE STARTING TO USE AI INSTEAD.
>> THE ADVERTISING MODEL ON THE WEB EXISTS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE WEB WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED BY YOU AND OTHERS.
THIS DOESN'T EASILY ALLOW SMALL PAYMENTS, SECURE TRANSACTIONS.
WOULD WE BE BETTER OFF WITH A WEB WHERE I COULD PAY SMALL AMOUNTS OF THINGS RATHER THAN HAVE IT BE ADVERTISING BASED?
>> WE HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT SINCE THE BEGINNING.
YES.
WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO FIND WAYS OF GETTING REVENUE TO CREATIVES.
COPPERY COPYRIGHT LAW HAS NOT BEEN DOING VERY WELL.
FOR THOSE REGIONS WHO WANT TO PAY LIKE THAT OR WANT TO PATRONIZE.
>> SO ON THE WEB, PEOPLE CAN PUT UP MATERIAL.
THEY CAN PIRATE MATERIAL.
AI MAKES THAT EVEN MORE SO WHICH IS AI TRAINS ON ALL OF THAT DATA.
IS THERE A WAY FOR PEOPLE WHO CREATE CONTENT WHO HAVE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY TO COPYRIGHT IT AND MAKE IT WORK ON THE SYSTEM?
>> IF YOU WRITE SOMETHING ON THE WEB, BY DEFAULT, IT IS COPYRIGHTED.
IF THE AI USES THAT, THE NUMBER OF PROBLEMS, WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN, IF AN AI USES YOUR DATA YOU SHOULD GET SOME REVENUE BACK SOMEHOW OR OTHER.
>> DOESN'T THERE NEED TO BE SOME PROTOCOLS THAT WOULD PERMIT THAT?
>> SOME PEOPLE THINK YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND OUT.
OKAY, SO WHICH SOURCE DID YOU ACTUALLY USE TO MAKE THAT RESULT?
THEN YOU CAN IMAGINE WHEN THE ANSWER COMES TO THEM, THE PROTOCOL WOULD THEN GO BACK AND RECOMPENSE.
BUT THAT IS ALL IN THIS IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO FIND OUT WHAT SOURCES ARE RESPONSIBLE.
GIVEN THE ANSWER IS I THINK IS ALL IN THE RESEARCH STAGE.
MAYBE IT WILL COME IN THE FUTURE.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT TAKING THE WEB BACK.
WHAT ARE YOU AND YOUR TEAMS DEVELOPING?
IN TERMS OF PROTOCOLS OR IDEAS THAT WOULD MAKE THE WEB A LITTLE LESS TOXIC AND MORE USEFUL TO THE ORDINARY PEOPLE?
>> WHEN THE LOCALS, ANYBODY COULD START THEIR OWN WEBSITE SO THAT PARATHA PEOPLE HAVE, YOUR SOVEREIGN, WE ARE BUILDING SYSTEMS WHERE IT IS LIKE HAVING YOUR OWN WEBSITE.
WE ARE BUILDING SYSTEMS WHERE THERE MAY BE PERSONAL ONLINE DATA STORE.
BUT IT IS ONE THING THAT YOU COMPLETELY CONTROL.
BUILDING APPS THAT WORK.
WITH APPS SO THAT YOU CAN BUILD APPS THAT ARE COLLABORATIVE.
FOR COLLABORATIVE COMMUNICATION.
BUILDING THINGS WHICH GIVE YOU BACK YOUR SENSE OF PURPOSE.
BEING A PEER TO OTHER PEOPLE ON THE WEB.
GIVES YOU BACK AN ABILITY TO COLLABORATE WITH THEM.
>> SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
> >> AND, FINALLY, WRESTLING WITH TRADITION.
YOUNG GIRLS IN JAPAN ARE ENTERING THE SUMO WRESTLING RING FOR THE FIRST TIME.
A SPORT THAT FOR CENTURIES HAD BEEN EXCLUSIVELY MEN ONLY.
NOW OVER 600 PEOPLE COMPETE ON AN AMATEUR LEVEL WITH MANY TRAVELING FROM ALL OVER JAPAN FOR WEEK LONG TRAINING CAMPS IN TOKYO AT THE NATION'S LARGEST SUMO CLUB.
BANDAGING EACH OTHER'S WOUNDS AS THEY BUILD A REAL SUMO SISTER HOOD.
BUT WOMEN ARE STILL BARRED FROM THE PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE.
ARI HISANO HOPES THAT WILL CHANGE SOON.
AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PB S. ORG/AMANPOUR.
THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
SO LONG FROM WINDSOR CASTLE.
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