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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> >> ANOTHER DEVASTATING DAY OF AIR STRIKES IN UKRAINE AS CALLS GROW FOR STRONGER ACTION AGAINST PUTIN.
I ASK MILITARY ANALYST MICHAEL KAUFMANN HOW THIS COULD SHAPE THINGS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
> >> THEN -- >> BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DRUGS ARE POURING INTO OUR COUNTRY FROM VENEZUELA.
>> COULD TRUMP'S WAR ON DRUGS TURN INTO AN ACTUAL WAR?
I SPEAK TO SENIOR DIRECTOR AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP IVAN BRISCOE ABOUT ESCALATING TENSIONS BETWEEN THE U. S. AND VENEZUELA.
> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HERE ARE BEING ARRESTED.
>> BRITISH POLICE TAKE ON PROTESTERS IN LONDON AS THOUSANDS STAND AGAINST THE BANNING OF A PRO-PALESTINIAN GROUP.
ISABEL YOUNG'S SPECIAL REPORT ON THE COST OF OPPOSING THE WAR IN GAZA.
> >> PLUS -- >> WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.
>> DEMOCRATIC POLITICIAN STACY ACHE RAGS TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY SHE'S SOUNDING THE ALARM ON WHAT SHE SAYS IS THE RISE OF AUTOCRACY IN AMERICA.
> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
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MARK J. BLECHNER.
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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK.
THE LARGEST RUSSIAN AIR ATTACK OF THE WAR SO FAR.
A GOVERNMENT BUILDING DAMAGED FOR THE FIRST TIME.
AND MORE UKRAINIAN CIVILIANS KILLED IN THE STRIKES, INCLUDING UKRAINIAN MEDIA SAY, A MOTHER AND HER BABY IN KYIV.
SO, HAS PRESIDENT PUTIN BLOWN HIS PLACE AT THE NEGOTIATE TABLE?
IT SEEMS THE DAYS OF DIPLOMATIC DIALOGUE WITH TRUMP COULD BE NUMBERED.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> IT'S SUCH A HORRIBLE WASTE OF HUMANITY.
SO NO, I AM NOT THRILLED WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE.
I BELIEVE WE'RE GOING TO GET IT SETTLED, BUT I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THEM.
>> PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HE'S NOW READY TO MOVE TO A, QUOTE, SECOND PHASE OF SANCTIONS ON MOSCOW, AND THE STAKES ARE HIGH AS SECRETARY --TREASURY SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT MADE CLEAR OVER THE WEEKEND.
>> WE ARE IN A RACE NOW BETWEEN HOW LONG CAN THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY HOLD UP VERSUS HOW LONG CAN THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY HOLD UP?
>> YET THE KREMLIN CLAIMS SANCTIONS COULD NEVER FORCE THEM TO CHANGE POSITIONS IN THE WAR, BUT IS THAT A POSITION THEY CAN HOLD AT THIS POINT?
MICHAEL KAUFMANN, A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE CARNEGIE ENDOMENT FOR NATIONAL PEACE.
HE IS JOINING US FROM LONDON.
MIKE, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.
AS WE NOTED, RUSSIA JUST CARRIED OUD ITS LARGEST AERIAL ATTACK OF THE WAR, STRIKING EVEN A GOVERNMENT BUILDING IN KYIV, WHICH ACCORDING PO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WAS HIT WITH A BALLISTIC MISSILE.
FROM A MILITARY STANDPOINT, WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT MOSCOW'S CURRENT STRATEGY HERE?
>> BEYOND WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE FRONT LINE, THE RUSSIAN MILITARY'S BEEN TRYING TO BOMBARD UKRAINIAN DEFENSE INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION, UKRAINIAN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, IT'S BEEN GOING AFTER CITIES, IT'S BEEN GOING AFTER CIVILIANS, TRYING TO DRIVE CIVILIANS OUT, CITIES AS WELL.
AS YOU CAN SEE, THE STRIKE WIDENING RATHER THAN BEING CONTAINED OR REFLECTING SOME KIND OF LIMITATION ON MOSCOW'S PART.
IF ANYTHING, RUSSIAN DRONE PRODUCTION, MISSILE PRODUCTION, HAS INCREASED OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS.
FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TO UKRAINE, THEY CAN SEE THAT YEAR ON YEAR, THE AMOUNT OF DRONES THAT UKRAINIANS HAVE TO DEAL WITH HAS INCREASED MAYBE TEN TIMES COMPARED TO LAST YEAR.
SO THIS IS AN ESCALATING PROBLEM.
AND VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY EFFORT SUGGESTS A WILLINGNESS TO NEGOTIATE.
>> YOU WERE ON THE FRONT LINES IN UKRAINE JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE COMMUNICATION AND CONVERSATIONS REGULARLY WITH UKRAINIAN DEFENSE OFFICIALS AND THOSE ON THE FRONT LINES AS WELL.
WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU ABOUT SOME OF THEIR MAJOR CONCERNS RIGHT NOW?
AND IF YOU CAN JUST GIVE US A SENSE OF MORALE AT THIS POINT, THREE YEARS, OVER THREE YEARS INTO THIS WAR?
>> SO THIS WAR HAS BEEN DRAGGING ON BEYOND CONVENTIONAL WAR.
IT'S FAIR TO DESCRIBE THE FRONT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT.
IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT FOR SOME YEARS.
ON THE OTHER HAND, UKRAINIAN FORCES ARE HOLDING THE RUSSIAN MILITARY TO RELATIVELY INCREMENTAL GAINS WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE OVERALL MATERIEL ADVANTAGE RUSSIA HAS.
ON THE ONE HAND, THINGS ARE CHALLENGING.
YOU SEE THE RUSSIAN MILITARY ADAPTS AS THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY ADAPTS TO THE RUSSIAN TACTICS AND WAR FIGHTING EFFORT.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU ALSO SEE THAT UKRAINE HAS PROVEN CONSISTENTLY RESILIENT.
IF WE ASSESS THE RESULTS OF RUSSIAN OFFENSIVE EFFORTS FROM THE SPRING THROUGH THE SUMMER, THEY ARE LIKELY, FROM MY POINT, TO BE LACKLUSTER, AND PROBABLY FROM THE RUSSIAN POINT OF VIEW AS WELL.
RUSSIAN MILITARY HAS CONTINUED TO ADVANCE, BUT NOT VERY SIGNIFICANTLY.
THEY'VE NOT CAPTURED MAJOR CITIES.
THERE'S STILL QUITE A BIT OF FIGHTING AHEAD EVEN THIS FALL.
I INCREASINGLY THINK THAT THE WAR'S GOING TO GO INTO 2026.
>> THAT -- THAT IS REALLY SOBERING TO HEAR.
IF THE WAR CONTINUES AT THE SAME COURSE THAT IT IS RIGHT NOW, HOW SUSTAINABLE ARE THE MANPOWER ISSUES FOR UKRAINE ALONE?
I KNOW RUSSIA HAS THEIR OWN CONCERNS.
BUT THEY ARE A LARGER COUNTRY, THEY DO HAVE MORE OF A FIGHTING FORCE.
>> ONE OF UKRAINE'S CONSISTENT CHALLENGES HAS BEEN MANPOWER.
THAT'S WHERE RUSSIA HAS AN ADVANTAGE.
A HISTORIC ADVANTAGE, I MIGHT ADD.
ONE OF THE KEOUGH SETS TO MANPOWER, TRADITIONALLY WAR, HAS BEEN CAPITAL AND TECHNOLOGY.
UKRAINE IS TRYING TO FIGHT SMARTER.
ONE THING THE WEST HAS IN ABUNDANCE AT THE END OF THE DAY IS CAPITAL.
NOW, FROM WA I'VE SEEN, I DON'T THINK THAT DRONES AND DRONE UNITS ALONE CAN STABILIZE THE FRONT LINE.
BUT THEY'VE DONE QUITE A BIT TO STYMIE THE RUSSIAN OFFENSIVE EFFORT.
IF UKRAINE CAN CONTINUE ALSO WORKING IN INNOVATIVE SOLUTIONS TO RUSSIAN DRONE STRIKES, WHICH ALREADY HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED, THEY'RE JUST BEING SCALED RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF DEPLOYMENT.
AND ITS OWN OFFENSIVE STRIKE EFFORTS.
TARGETING THOSE FACILITIES THAT GENERATE RESOURCES OR THAT ARE ESSENTIAL FOR MAINTAINING THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY.
THE UKRAINIAN VISION, AT LEAST AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS TO TRY TO MAKE THE WAR EFFORT AS FUTILE AS POSSIBLE FOR RUSSIA AND TO SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE THE COSTS WHICH OVER TIME MAY FORCE RUSSIA TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.
ASSUMING THE WEST AND ALSO THE UNITED STATES ARE WILLING TO DO THEIR PART IN COMPELLING RUSSIA AND ENACTING SOME OF THE MEASURES THAT HAVE LONG BEEN TALKED ABOUT, BUT LET'S BE FRANK, HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN SEEN.
>> WHICH OF THOSE MEASURES DO YOU THINK AT THIS POINT WOULD HAVE THE GREATEST IMPACT ON SETTING VLADIMIR PUTIN BACK OR AT LEAST REALLY TAKING NEGOTIATIONS MORE SERIOUSLY THAN HE HAS THUS FAR?
>> SO I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT I'VE SEEN IS THAT CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES SIDE, BEING SOMEBODY WHO IS IN GREATER WASHINGTON, D. C. AREA, MUCH HAS BEEN MADE OF POTENTIAL COURSE OF ECONOMIC MEASURES, DEADLINES.
BUT ONE AFTER ANOTHER HAVE COME UNPASSED.
AND VERY LITTLE HAS BEEN DONE ON THAT FRONT.
IN FACT, IF ANYTHING, WE'VE BEEN STRUGGLING WITH MAINTAINING MAINTENANCE SANCTIONS, THE SANCTIONS THAT HAVE TO BE ROUTINELY REAPPLIED ON NEW RUSSIAN COMPANIES, NEW RUSSIAN ACTORS WHO WORK TO GET AROUND SANCTIONS, AND EXPERT CONTROLS.
AND SO I THINK WE'VE GONE FROM ONE SET OF NEGOTIATIONS TO ANOTHER TO A SUMMIT WITHOUT MUCH PROGRESS, AS YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT THE RUSSIAN OBJECTIVE IS TO STALL FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE WHILE THEY'RE CONTINUING TO FIGHT ON THE GROUND AND CONTINUING TO INCREASE THEIR STRIKES AGAINST UKRAINIAN CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE.
>> AND YOU MADE THE POINT, AND OTHERS HAVE AS WELL, HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR UKRAINE TO BUILD ITS OWN DEFENSE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX AND HOW IT'S GOING TO NEED MORE ASSISTANCE TO DO THAT FROM THE WEST, PARTICULARLY FROM THE UNITED STATES.
BUT IN TERMS OF THE WEAPONRY THAT IS NEEDED MOST RIGHT NOW ON THE BATTLEFIELD THAT COULD BE PROVIDED BY KEY ALLIES, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW THAT THEY NEED IN TERMS OF TAKING THIS FIGHT AT LEAST A FEW MONTHS FORWARD AND POSSIBLY EVEN INTO THEIR OWN, INTO A POSITIVE DIRECTION FOR THEM?
>> SURE.
I WOULD SAY, OF COURSE, OUTSIDE OF THE BASICS, WHICH EVERY MILITARY NEEDS --FOLKS IN CONVERSATION TEND TO FOCUS ON BIG- TICKET ITEMS, RIGHT?
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, ON THE GROUND, SOLDIERS NEED BASIC EQUIPMENT, COMMUNICATIONS, PROTECTIVE ARMOR, ALL OF THAT.
AIR DEFENSE BATTERIES AND AIR DEFENSE MUNITIONS.
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH.
UKRAINE HAS BOTH COVER ISSUES AND ISSUES IN TERMS OF THE AMMUNITION AVAILABLE TO DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST SUSTAINED RUSSIAN LONG-RANGE MISSILE AND DRONE STRIKES.
THOSE CAPABLE CAPABILITIES WHICH CAN HIT RUSSIAN FORCES IN THE REAR WHERE UKRAINE STRUGGLES IN TERMS OF ITS REACH.
THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT FALL- OFF IN THE CAPABILITIES UKRAINIAN FORCES HAVE TO HIT RUSSIAN MILITARY IN THE REAR AND SUPPORTING ELEMENTS BEHIND THAT FIGHT.
LASTLY, LONG-RANGE STRIKE CAPABILITIES, WHICH ARE A CHALLENGE IN TERMS OF AVAILABILITY IN THE WEST, POTENTIAL RESTRICTIONS IMPOSED ON THEM.
UKRAINE IS WORKING HARD TO DEVELOP ITS OWN.
A NUMBER HAVE BEEN REVEALED MOST RECENTLY.
THERE YOU CAN SEE UKRAINE'S STRIKES HAVE BEEN ORGANIZED AND MORE CONCERTED THAN LAST YEAR.
>> YOU SAY IT'S A NUMBERS ISSUE AS WELL AND IT TAKES TIME TO PROCURE THEM, EVEN IF THEY ARE GREEN LIT.
BUT IF IT'S JUST A STOPGAP MEASURE TO BUY UKRAINE MORE TIME TO PRODUCE SOME OF THEIR OWN, IS THERE ENOUGH IN THE PIPELINE NOW TO GET MORE TO THE FRONT LINES?
>> SO AT THIS POINT IN THE WAR, UKRAINE DOES MAKE A LOT OF WHAT IT NEEDS IN TERMS OF DAY-TO-DAY BATTLEFIELD NEEDS.
WHAT THE WEST IS FILLING MORE ARE KEY MUNITIONS FOR ITS OWN CAPABILITIES, RIGHT, SUCH AS HIMARS, MULTIPLE LAUNCH SYSTEMS, PATRIOT MISSILE DEFENSE BATTERIES.
AND A HOST OF THINGS THAT ONLY THE WEST, IN SOME CASES ONLY THE UNITED STATES, CAN SUPPLY.
IS THERE ENOUGH IN THE PIPELINE MORE OR LESS?
IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT IS ENOUGH.
IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH RUSSIA INTENSIFIES ITS OFFENSIVE EFFORTS, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE STRIKES ARE BEING CONDUCTED.
THE HONEST ANSWER IS, PROBABLY NOT.
BUT IS THERE --IF SUFFICIENT CAPACITY IS THERE, IF FUNDED, BY THE UNITED STATES, MORE IMPORTANTLY BY EUROPEAN PARTNERS AND ALLIES, WHICH HAS INCREASINGLY BEEN THE DIRECTION OF POLICY IN WASHINGTON, D. C. , TO SHIFT THE FINANCIAL BURDEN ON TO EUROPEAN ALLIES, THEN I THINK SO.
I DON'T THINK UKRAINIAN AIR DEFENSE IS GOING TO COLLAPSE.
I DON'T THINK UKRAINIAN FRONT LINES ARE GOING TO COLLAPSE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
AND I THINK THAT THE CAPACITY IS THERE.
I WISH IT WAS GREATER, AND OF COURSE, I WISH THAT BOTH WE AND EUROPEAN COLLEAGUES HAD GOTTEN DOWN THE PATH OF INVESTING IN EXPANDED DEFENSE INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION MUCH SOONER IN THIS WAR.
>> YOU MENTIONED THAT, IN YOUR VIEW, YOU SEE THIS WAR GOING AND CONTINUING THROUGH 2026.
THERE ARE CONFLICTING AND MIXED SIGNALS COMING FROM NOT ONLY THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF BUT ALSO HIS OWN PENTAGON OFFICIALS, ELBRIDGE COLBY REPORTS THAT HE'S PUSHING FOR CUTTING MILITARY AID TO SOME OF THE EASTERN COUNTRIES MOST AT RISK AND SUSCEPTIBLE TO RUSSIAN ATTACKS THERE ALONG THE BORDER.
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT COULD CHANGE THAT TIMELINE PROJECTION, IN YOUR VIEW, THAT THE U. S. --THE WEST, BUT LED BY THE U. S. , COULD DO IMMINENTLY THAT COULD CHANGE THE CALCULUS THAT PUTIN HAS LAID FOR HIMSELF IN TERMS OF HOW FAR HE CAN KEEP GOING?
>> SO LOOK, MY OWN VIEW ON WAR, ESPECIALLY LARGE-SCALE CONVENTIONAL WAR LIKE THIS, WHICH HAS GONE FOR YEARS, THAT THERE ARE FEW MEDIA GAME CHANGERS THAT CAN ALTER THE DYNAM OAK THE BALL FIELD SO EASILY AND QUICKLY.
MUCH OF IT IS ABOUT NUMBERS, AT THE END OF THE DAY.
IT'S ABOUT MAKING THE RIGHT INVESTMENTS AND MAKING THEM AT THE RIGHT TIME.
IT IS ALSO ABOUT THE FACT RESOURCING AND SUSTAINING CAPABILITIES YOU'VE ALREADY DEPLOYED.
WHEN I LOOK AT WHAT UNITED STATES AND EUROPE CAN DO, OF COURSE THEY CAN SEND A CLEAR SIGNAL THAT THE COMMITMENT TO UKRAINE REMAINS NOT ONLY STRONG, BUT IT'S MORE OF A MEDIUM AND LONG-TERM COMMITMENT, RIGHT?
OF COURSE, I THINK RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP HOLDS OUT THIS HOPE THAT EITHER SOMETHING'S GOING TO HAPPEN ON THE FRONT LINE, THAT MAYBE THE UKRAINIAN FRONT LINES WILL COLLAPSE, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT, AND THE RUSSIAN MILITARY'S NOT FIGHTING IN A WAY THAT CAN REALLY ACHIEVE AN OPERATIONAL SIGNIFICANT BREAKTHROUGH, OR THAT WESTERN SUPPORT WILL COLLAPSE.
WHICH I THINK TO BE FRANK EARLIER ON THIS YEAR WAS VERY MUCH IN QUESTION OR PERHAPS IN JEOPARDY.
SO I THINK MAKING A SUSTAINED COMMITMENT IS CRITICAL.
AND LAST POINT ON THIS, WITH YOUR QUESTION REGARDING THE VIEWS OF SOME FOLKS IN THE PENTAGON THAT PRIORITIZATION AND FOCUS ON THE INDO-PACIFIC AND CHINA MEANS THAT WE NEED TO DO A LOT LESS IN EUROPE, WE NEED TO CANCEL OUR PROGRAMS IN EUROPE.
THOSE ARE VIEWS THAT THEY HAVE LONG HELD, AND THEY HELD THOSE VIEWS BEFORE THEY CAME INTO THE ADMINISTRATION.
BUT I THINK THAT SOME OF WHAT IS BEING DONE VERY MUCH SENDS THE WRONG SIGNAL ABOUT OUR COMMITMENT TO EUROPEAN SECURITY.
>> AND WE SHOULD NOTE, I DON'T BELIEVE THOSE VIEWS HAVE BEEN ESPOUSED OR AT LEAST PUBLICLY STATED BY THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF.
PEEL LIKE ELBRIDGE COLBY HAVE LONG FOCUSED ON CHINA AND MOVING AWAY FROM EUROPE.
I'M NOT SURE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SPECIFICALLY STATED AS MUCH.
MICHAEL KAUFMANN, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.
>> ALWAYS HAPPY TO JOIN YOU.
> >> NEXT TO SPIRALING TENSIONS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND VENEZUELA.
OUTRAGE CONTINUES TO BUILD OVER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STRIKE ON AN ALLEGED DRUG VESSEL HE SAYS DEPARTED FROM VENEZUELA.
11 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN THE ATTACK.
OFFICIALS SAY THIS WAS JUST THE BEGINNING OF A MUCH LARGER ANTI- DRUG MISSION IN THE REGION.
BUT IT HAS RATTLED VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT NICK LESS MADURO, WHO SAYS TRUMP IS PLOTTING TO DISLODGE HIM FROM POWER.
THE U. S. HAS MOVED SUBSTANTIAL MILITARY FIREPOWER INTO THE CRIB RAN IN RECENT WEEKS, EVEN ORDERING TEN F-35 FIGHTER JETS TO PUERTO RICO ON FRIDAY.
SO IS TRUMP GEARING UP FOR A FULL BLOWN MILITARY CONFLICT?
IVAN BRISCOE IS SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR POLICY AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP, AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM LONDON.
LET'S BEGIN WITH WHAT'S JUST HAPPENED IN THE LAST WEEK.
THE U. S. MILITARY CARRIED OUT THE STRIKE IN THE SOUTHERN CARIBBEAN, SINKING A VESSEL THE WHITE HOUSE SAID BELONGED TO VENEZUELA, AND THE VENEZUELA GANG, PARTICULARLY TREND DE ARAGUA, KILLING 11 ALLEGED TRAFFICKERS.
WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU IN THE EPISODE THAT TRANSPIRED THE LAST FEW DAYS?
>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE TWO ELEMENTS IN PARTICULAR WHICH STAND OUT.
FIRST OF ALL, IT'S THE USE OF U. S. MILITARY FORCE DIRECTLY AGAINST SUSPECTED DRUG TRAFFICKERS, WHICH IS SOMETHING OF A NAUGHTY.
NOW, THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES HAVEN'T USED EXTREME FORCE AGAINST CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS FOR DECADES NOW, OFTEN WITH THE BACKING OF THE UNITED STATES.
BUT FOR THE UNITED STATES ITSELF TO ATTACK A BOAT SEEMINGLY WITHOUT GIVING WARNING BEFOREHAND, WE DON'T KNOW ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND THE ATTACK, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THERE'S CERTAINLY 11 CASUALTIES.
AND THERE'S A TOWN ON THE COAST OF VENEZUELA WHICH IS --WHICH IS MOURNING THEM AT THE MOMENT.
SO THIS DEFINITELY TOOK PLACE.
AND IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN CARRIED OUT, AS I SAID, WITHOUT WARNING, WITHOUT USING THE USUAL PROTOCOLS OF SEIZURES AND CAPTURES OF SUSPECTED DRUG TRAFFICKERS AT SEA.
SO IT'S A CHANGE IN THE MODEL OF THE WAR ON DRUGS AS WAGED BY THE UNITED STATES, FOR ONE.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THIS IS TAKING PLACE AS PART OF A LARGE MILITARY DEPLOYMENT IN THE CARIBBEAN WHICH SEEMS TO BE FOCUSED ON VENEZUELA.
ACCUSES THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT OF BEING PART OF THE -- THE HEAD OF A LARGE DRUG TRAFFICKING ORGANIZATION, AND THEREFORE SEEMS TO BE, AS IT WERE, TRYING TO SEPARATE NICOLAS MADURO FROM THE PRESIDENCY, WEAKEN HIS GOVERNMENT, AND POSSIBLY BRING ABOUT A CHANGE IN GOVERNMENT IN THE COUNTRY.
AND WE DON'T PRECISELY KNOW AT THE MOMENT WHAT THE DIMENSIONS OF THE MILITARY FORCE BEING USED TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL IS GOING TO BE.
>> WELL, ANALYSTS ARE CALLING THIS THE LARGEST DEPLOYMENT IN DECADES.
LET'S JUST GO THROUGH WHAT HAS BEEN DEPLOYED.
GUIDED MISSILE DESTROYERS.
INTELLIGENCE PLANES.
FIGHTER JETS.
NUCLEAR- POWERED SUBMARINE.
AMPHIBIOUS READY TROOP CARRYING 4,000 TROOPS INTO THE REGION.
"BLOOMBERG NEWS" IS REPORTING DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH AND AIR FORCE GENERAL DAN CAIN ALSO MADE A VISIT TO PUERTO RICO ON FRIDAY AS WELL.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S ULTIMATE GOAL HERE IS IN TERMS OF THE SHOW OF FORCE?
>> WE DON'T KNOW AT THE MOMENT.
CLEARLY, THERE IS A DESIRE TO PROJECT STRENGTH AND FORCE IN FRONT OF VENEZUELA AND THE LATIN AMERICAN REGION AS A WHOLE.
WE KNOW FROM WHAT OFFICIALS HAVE SAID THAT THERE IS A DISDAIN AND EXTREME DISLIKE FOR WHAT TRUMP'S SPOKESPERSON CALLED THE NARCO TERROR CARTEL, WHICH IS SUPPOSEDLY RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT IN VENEZUELA, REFERRING, OF COURSE, TO NICOLAS MADURO IN PARTICULAR.
AND SO THERE IS A DESIRE TO, AS IT WERE, INTIMIDATE THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT, TO MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT THEY RUN THE RISK OF A MILITARY STRIKE OF SOME SORT OR POSSIBLY SOME FORM OF LANDING OR INVASION, SOME FORM OF MISSILE STRIKE, AND THEREFORE TO SPREAD FEAR IN THOSE RANKS, AND THEREFORE POSSIBLY TO LEAD TO --TO ENCOURAGE PARTS OF THE MILITARY TO BREAK AWAY, TURN AGAINST MADURO, AND MAYBE DELIVER MADURO TO THE U. S. FORCES.
REMEMBERING, OF COURSE, THE BOUNTY FOR THEIR HANDING OVER OF MADURO TO U. S. LAW ENFORCEMENT WAS DOUBLED RECENTLY.
SO HAS REACHED $50 MILLION.
SO THAT SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT'S GOING ON.
NOW, WHAT WE DON'T KNOW AT THE MOMENT IS WHETHER THERE IS A SERIOUS COMMITMENT IN WASHINGTON, IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, TO REGIME CHANGE.
TRUMP SAID EXPLICITLY ON FRIDAY, HE'S NOT INTERESTED IN REGIME CHANGE.
MARCO RUBIO HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT MORE EQUIVOCAL ON THE SUBJECT.
IT SEEMS TO BE THE CASE THAT THEY ARE IDENTIFYING THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT AS A DRUG TRAFFICKING TARGET, AND THEREFORE, AS A FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, ACCORDING TO THEIR RECENT DEFINITIONS.
BUT THEY'RE NOT SAYING THEY'RE INVOLVED IN THE GAME OF INTERVENTION AIMED AT ACHIEVING POLITICAL CHANGE.
BUT ONCE THE MILITARY IS ENGAGED, IF THERE IS, ADVERTENTLY OR INADVERTENTLY A CLASH WITH VENEZUELAN FORCES, THE RISK IS THE CONFLICT WILL ESCALATE AND U. S. FORCES MIGHT CARRY OUT MORE IMPORTANT ATTACKS ON VENEZUELAN SOIL.
>> WELL, HOW MIGHT THIS SPIRAL?
BECAUSE EVEN IF PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS THIS IS NOT ABOUT REGIME CHANGE, IF NICOLAS MADURO, IN FACT, THINKS THAT IT IS AND THEN RESPONDS ACCORDINGLY, HE'S ALREADY WARNING OF MAXIMUM REBELLION IF ATTACKED.
I MEAN, DO YOU ENVISION AN ACTUAL WAR AND FIRE EXCHANGE BETWEEN U. S. FORCES AND VENEZUELAN FORCES?
>> THERE IS, OF COURSE, A VERY EVIDENT RISK THAT UNITED STATES IS SHOWING IT'S PERFECTLY WILLING TO BLOW A GO FAST BOAT OUT OF THE SEA LAST WEEK.
THERE WAS SUPPOSEDLY - -WE DON'T HAVE CONFIRMATION --A -- AN ENCOUNTER BETWEEN TWO VENEZUELAN FIGHTER JETS AND AN AMERICAN WARSHIP.
THAT WAS THE PRETEXT ON WHICH THOSE TEN F 35 FIGHTER JETS WERE DISPATCHED TO PUERTO RICO.
THERE WAS CLEARLY A COURSE OF ESCALATION.
THERE IS AN INCREASING TIDE OF RHETORIC.
THERE MAY WELL BE AN ATTEMPT BY THE VENEZUELAN MILITARY TO SEND OUT JETS OR SEND OUT SHIPS AGAIN INTO THE AREA WHERE THE U. S. ARE PATROLLING.
THERE IS A RISK OF CLASHES AS A RESULT.
AND ALSO, THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY --AND THIS IS WHAT WE DON'T KNOW --THAT THE U. S. MIGHT SEEK TO BE REACHING AN ARRANGEMENT WITH PARTS OF THE VENEZUELAN MILITARY OR CIVILIAN LEADERS IN AN EFFORT TO ENSURE THAT THE U. S. , THAT RATHER, MADURO OR SENIOR PHYSICAL EXAMINATIONS IN THE GOVERNMENT, ARE DELIVERED INTO THEIR HANDS.
AT THE MOMENT, THAT WOULD SEEM UNLIKELY BECAUSE THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT TRADITIONALLY HAS BEEN --HAS ACTED AS A VERY UNITED, COHERENT, AND RESISTANT STRUCTURE IN THE FACE OF ALL THE U. S. PRESSURE.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE'VE NEVER SEEN THE SORTS OF MILITARY DEPLOYMENT WHICH IS NOW IN THE CARIBBEAN, AS IT WERE, LED BY THE UNITED STATES BEFORE.
>> WELL, DO YOU ENVISION IN THE FINAL FEW SECONDS WE HAVE HERE OF CONGRESS ACTUALLY PREVENTING A HOT WAR FROM ENSUING BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES?
BECAUSE THUS FAR, THE U. S. IS FORMALLY NOT AT WAR WITH VENEZUELA.
IT WOULD REQUIRE APPROVAL FROM CONGRESS TO DO AS MUCH.
AND THERE IS A REAL QUESTION OF LEGALITY OF ALL OF THESE OPERATIONS NOW.
HOW FAR DO YOU THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S WILLING TO GO?
>> THERE ARE MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT ILLEGALITY.
OBVIOUSLY THE PRETEXT FOR USING FORCE, MILITARY FORCE, AGAINST DRUG TRAFFICKING OPERATIONS IS THE -- THE CLASSIC FICATION OF DRUG ORGANIZATIONS AS FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS.
IT'S ON THE BASIS OF THE CLASSIFICATION, THE DESIGNATION, THAT THE UNITED STATES, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IS CLAIMING IT CAN USE MILITARY FORCE.
ALSO A SECRET DIRECTIVE WHICH HAS REPORTEDLY BEEN SIGNED BY TRUMP ALLOWING THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST LATIN AMERICAN CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS.
SO THERE IS A LEGAL CASE OR CLAIM WHICH IS BEING MADE BY THE U. S. GOVERNMENT TO MAKE THE RIGHTFUL USE OF FORCE.
AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS A DENIAL BY THE SENIOR U. N. OFFICIAL --U. S. OFFICIALS THAT THEY ARE IN THE GAME OF REGIME CHANGE AND THAT THERE IS A DESIRE TO STRIP MADURO OF THE PRESIDENCY AND TO REMOVE HIM FROM THE COUNTRY.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY SAY THAT IF THIS WAS, YOU KNOW --IF THE EFFECTS OF THE U. S. MILITARY BUILDUP, THAT THAT WOULD BE PERFECTLY DESIRABLE AND THAT WOULD BE WELCOME.
SO WE ARE IN A VERY UNCERTAIN POSITION WHERE THERE IS NO WAR, THERE IS SUPPOSEDLY THE LEGITIMATE USE OF SELF-DEFENSE BY THE U. S. AUTHORITIES AGAINST CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS, AND WHERE THE POLITICAL EFFECTS, THE RAMIFICATIONS OF WHAT IS BEING DONE, HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN CALCULATED.
>> YEAH, AND THE LARGEST AMASSING OF U. S. TROOPS IN THE CARIBBEAN IN A NUMBER OF DECADES.
YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO GEORGE H. W. BUSH TO HAVE COMPARABLE FIGURES.
IVAN BRISCOE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
APPRECIATE YOUR EXPERTISE.
> >> WE TURN NOW TO JERUSALEM WHERE AT LEAST SIX PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN A SHOOTING THAT LEFT THE CITY REELING.
THE ATTACKERS OPENED FIRE ON A CROWDED BUS STOP IN NORTHERN OUTSKIRTS OF THAT CITY.
THAT'S ACCORDING TO ISRAELI POLICE, WHO HAVE IDENTIFIED THE ATTACKERS AS WEST BANK RESIDENTS.
PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU VISITED THE SIDE AND HAS DEPLOYED TROOPS TO THE WEST BANK, VOWING TO CARRY OUT HARSHER MEASURES IN RESPONSE.
NOW THIS COMES JUST DAYS AFTER ISRAELI SECURITY OFFICIALS WARNED THE PRIME MINISTER ABOUT A POTENTIAL FLARE-UP OF VIOLENCE IN THE WEST BANK.
FOR MORE, LET'S BRING IN JEREMY DIAMOND.
WE KNOW AT LEAST SIX PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM THE SHOOTING.
MORE INJURED AND IN HOSPITAL RIGHT NOW.
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU VOWING TO RETALIATE.
WHAT MORE HAVE WE LEARNED ABOUT THIS INCIDENT?
>> Reporter: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE SCENE, I MEAN, WE WERE THERE IN THE HOURS AFTER THIS ATTACK TOOK PLACE.
SHARDS OF GLASS STILL LITTERING THE FLOOR.
POOLS OF BLOOD DRYING ON THE SIDEWALK.
CLEANUP CREWS QUICKLY CAME IN AND GOT RID OF IT ALL, ALLOWING ISRAELIS TO KIND OF TRY AND GET BACK TO THEIR SENSE OF NORMALCY.
BUT INDEED, IT WAS FAR FROM A NORMAL MORNING TODAY IN JERUSALEM AS AT LEAST SIX PEOPLE WERE KILLED, MORE THAN A DOZEN PEOPLE WERE INJURED AFTER TWO PALESTINIAN GUNMEN OPENED FIRE INDISCRIMINATELY ON THIS CROWD IN WHAT ISRAELI AUTHORITIES ARE DESCRIBING AS A TERRORIST ATTACK.
THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER INDEED ON THE SCENE VOWING A HARSH RESPONSE.
AND WE'VE SEEN THE OPENING MOVES, AT LEAST, OF THAT RESPONSE AS ISRAELI SECURITY FORCES WERE SPOTTED IN THE PALESTINIAN VILLAGES JUST NORTHWEST OF JERUSALEM IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK FROM WHICH THESE TWO ATTACKERS, AGED 20 AND 21, REPORTEDLY HAILED, ACCORDING TO ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.
NOW, WE'VE ALSO HEARD FROM PALESTINIAN AUTHORITIES.
FIRST OF ALL, HAMAS PRAISING THIS ATTACK BUT NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT.
AND SO IT'S NOT CLEAR UNDER WHOSE AUSPICES THESE TWO GUNMEN WERE ACTING, IF THEY WERE ACTING UNDER THE AGENCY OF ANY PALESTINIAN MILITANT GROUP.
THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, FOR ITS PART, CONDEMNED ANY TARGETING OF PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI CIVILIANS FOLLOWING THIS VERY DEADLY SHOOTING.
WHAT THEY ALSO SAID IS THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT ULTIMATELY THE CREATION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE WITH SECURITY AND DIGNITY FOR BOTH PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS WILL BE THE ONLY THING THAT ULTIMATELY ENDS THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE.
>> AND MEANTIME, THE ATTACKS IN GAZA CONTINUE.
HEADLINES JUST OUT THAT FOUR ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE KILLED IN GAZA AND THE IDF AND DEFENSE MINISTER WARNING IN TERMS OF THEIR GAZA CITY TAKEOVER OPERATION THAT A MASSIVE HURRICANE WILL HIT THE SKIES OF GAZA CITY.
THIS IS PRESIDENT TRUMP ONCE AGAIN ISSUED A NEW ULTIMATUM, A NEW PROPOSAL IN TERMS OF BRINGING THIS WAR TO AN END.
WHERE DOES THAT PROPOSAL STAND RIGHT NOW?
>> Reporter: WELL, BIANNA, WE CAN VERY MUCH SEE TWO PATHS THAT ARE KIND OF STARTING TO MAKE THEMSELVES CLEAR IN FRONT OF US.
ONE OF THOSE PATHS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE UNITED STATES PROPOSED JUST YESTERDAY.
A CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE RELEASE DEAL, ONE THAT WOULD SEE THE RELEASE OF ALL OF THE ISRAELI HOSTAGES ON THE FIRST DAY OF THIS AGREEMENT IN EXCHANGE FOR SEVERAL THOUSAND PALESTINIAN PRISONERS AND A CEASE- FIRE AGREEMENT, THE BEGINNING OF NEGOTIATIONS TO END THE WAR.
BUT WITH NO REAL ASSURANCE FROM THE ISRAELIS THAT THAT WAR WILL END, WHICH YOU KNOW, SEEMS TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO SEE HAMAS ACCEPTING THAT PROPOSAL, AT LEAST AS IT STANDS RIGHT NOW.
BUT THE ALTERNATIVE TO THAT, AND THIS IS THE WAY THAT THE ISRAELIS AND THE AMERICANS ARE VERY MUCH FRAMING THIS TO HAMAS AND TO PALESTINIANS ON THE GROUND IN GAZA, IS THIS, YOU KNOW, INTENSEFYING ISRAELI MILITARY ASSAULT ON GAZA CITY, WHICH THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID IS ONLY IN ITS OPENING STAGES.
EVEN AS WE HAVE SEEN THE WIDESPREAD DESTRUCTION AND, YOU KNOW, BLOWING UP OF SOME OF THESE HIGHRISE BUILDINGS IN GAZA CITY.
WE HAVE SEEN AT LEAST 40 OF THOSE TOWERS THAT HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.
THE ISRAELI MILITARY CLAIMING THAT HAMAS WAS USING THESE TOWERS.
BUT IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO PUT IT IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE IN GAZA.
AND THE LANGUAGE WE ARE SEEING SENIOR ISRAELI OFFICIALS USING ALREADY, AND THAT IS THE LANGUAGE OF MASSIVE DESTRUCTION OF CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN GAZA CITY WITH THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER KATZ COMPARING IT TO WHAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY DID IN RAFAH, FOR EXAMPLE.
IN RAFAH, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND, THERE WAS NOT ALWAYS JUSTIFICATION OF HAMAS USING SOME OF THESE BUILDINGS.
IT WAS ALSO A CLEAR INTENTIONAL POLICY OF DESTROYING CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE TO RENDER THAT CITY UNLIVABLE, INADEQUATE FOR PALESTINIAN LIFE IN THE FUTURE.
AND THAT VERY MUCH SEEMS TO BE THE PATH THAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY IS LAYING OUT GOING FORWARD AS WELL.
>> YEAH, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WARNING PALESTINIANS TO GET OUT OF GAZA CITY AS ISRAEL INTENSIFIES ITS AERIAL ASSAULT.
THAT'S NEW CNN REPORTING.
JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTING TO US LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, THANK YOU.
> >> ISRAEL'S WAR IN GAZA CONTINUES TO DRAW PUBLIC OUTCRY ACROSS THE GLOBE.
IN THE UK, NEARLY 900 PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED IN THE CITY OVER THE WEEKEND AT A PROTEST AGAINST THE BAN ON THE GROUP PALESTINE ACTION.
THE MAJORITY WERE HANDCUFFED UNDER THE UK'S TERRORISM ACT AFTER THE GROUP WAS DECLARED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THIS SUMMER.
THE PROTEST ORGANIZERS DESCRIBED THE RALLY AS PEACEFUL.
CORRESPONDENT ISABEL YOUNG HAS THE DETAILS.
>> THE POLICE MIGHT BE ABOUT TO ARREST US.
>> Reporter: WHY DOES THE UK GOVERNMENT THINK THESE SENIORS ARE TERRORISTS?
>> HAVE YOU BEEN ARRESTED BEFORE?
>> NO, NO, NEVER.
>> NEVER?
>> I DON'T DO THINGS LIKE THIS.
>> Reporter: THEIR STORIES ARE AT THE HEART OF A DEBATE ROILING THE UK.
HOW FAR IS TOO FAR TO OPPOSE THE WAR IN GAZA?
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE TURNED OUT ON THE STREETS, INCLUDING IN LONDON.
BUT ALMOST TWO YEARS ON FROM HAMAS' OCTOBER 7th ATTACK ON ISRAEL, OVER 60,000 PALESTINIANS IN GAZA HAVE BEEN KILLED.
MASS STARVATION CONTINUES TO SPREAD.
THE SUM, PROTESTING IS JUST NOT ENOUGH.
PALESTINE ACTION IS A UK-BASED GROUP OF HUNDREDS OF INDIVIDUALS.
THEY ACCUSE THE UK ARMS INDUSTRY OF COMPLICITY IN SUPPORTING ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT.
THEY TARGETED ISRAELI WEAPONS FACTORIES, DESTROYED BRITISH MILITARY EQUIPMENT, AND EVEN VANDALIZED U. S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S GOLF COURSE.
THIS JUNE ACTION ON A BRITISH AIR BASE WAS SEEN AS A STEP TOO FAR BY THE UK GOVERNMENT.
WHO DESIGNATED THEM A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, MEANING ANYONE TAKING PART IN THESE ACTIONS COULD FACE TERRORISM CHARGES.
AUDREY CONNER, WHO JUST TURNED 23, STUDIES DANCE AND DRAMA.
SHE'S BEEN A MEMBER OF THE GROUP.
SHE'S VANDALIZED THE UK DEFENSE HEADQUARTERS.
AND JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO, SHE OCCUPIED A FACTORY SHE CLAIMED WAS SUPPLYING MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO ISRAEL.
SHE SPENT TWO MONTHS IN JAIL.
SO NOW YOU'RE OUT ON BAIL.
YOU HAVE AN ANKLE TAG THAT YOU HAVE TO WEAR.
YOU'VE GOT A CURFEW.
YOU'RE WAITING FOR YOUR COURT HEARING.
WHAT ARE THE MAXIMUM POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES TO THIS?
>> THE MAXIMUM TERM OF TEN YEARS IMPRISONMENT.
>> Reporter: WOULD THESE ACTIONS HAVE BEEN WORTH IT?
>> YEAH.
OF COURSE.
>> Reporter: WHAT WOULD IT HAVE BEEN WORTH IT FOR?
>> IT'S EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO STOP A GENOCIDE FROM HAPPENING.
>> Reporter: OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE WATCHING THIS WILL SAY, YOU DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT --YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TO ISRAEL OR TO GAZA, YOU DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE SITUATION, YOU ARE JUST JUMPING ON A BAND WAGON.
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM?
>> WELL, THIS ISN'T A BANDWAGON.
THE MORE I LEARNED ABOUT HOW DEEPLY COMPLICIT BRITAIN IS IN THE SUPPLY OF ARMS TO ISRAEL AND IN FUELING THIS GENOCIDE, THE MORE I REALIZE THAT THE COMFORT THAT I ENJOY, LIVING IN LONDON, IS SOAKED IN PALESTINIAN BLOOD.
>> Reporter: NOW THE UK GOVERNMENT HAS DESIGNATED PALESTINE ACTION A TERRORIST GROUP, EVEN HOLDING A SIGN IN SUPPORT IS ILLEGAL.
STOKING FEARS THAT FREE SPEECH ITSELF IS BEING STIFLED.
ANYONE SHOWING ANY SUPPORT FOR THIS GROUP, EVEN HOLDING UP A SIGN, IS CURRENTLY BEING ARRESTED, WHICH MEANS HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HERE ARE BEING ARRESTED.
>> REALLY, A TERRORIST YOU HAVE THERE, YEAH?
>> Reporter: THINGS ARE GETTING VERY ROWDY.
>> COME ON, YOU.
>> HEY, HEY, HEY!
>> Reporter: EVERYONE WILL BE ARRESTED?
>> EVERYONE WHO'S COMMITTED OFFENSES WILL BE ARRESTED.
>> Reporter: EVERYONE HOLDING A SIGN WILL BE ARRESTED?
SAYING IF THEY SUPPORT PALESTINE ACTION?
>> YEAH.
>> WE HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST THINGS THAT ARE WRONG, AND THIS IS WRONG, NOT BEING ALLOWED TO SPEAK ABOUT IT IS WRONG.
PALESTINE ACTION WASN'T A TERRORIST GROUP, HASN'T HARMED EVERYBODY.
WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING IS TERRORISM.
>> THE ESSENTIAL CASE AGAINST PALESTINE ACTION -- >> Reporter: POLITICIAN DON WOODCOCK WAS THE UK GOVERNMENT'S INDEPENDENT ADVISER ON POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND DISRUPTION.
THE 300-PAGE REPORT HE WROTE LAST YEAR WAS A MAJOR FACTOR IN BANNING PALESTINE ACTION UNDER ANTI-TERRORISM LAWS.
>> I TAKE REAL EXCEPTION TO THE IDEA OF THIS BEING A PEACEFUL PROTEST.
THAT THE DEFINITION OF TERRORISM ABSOLUTELY ENCOMPASSES THE KIND OF ECONOMIC DAMAGE FOR A POLITICAL CAUSE WHICH PALESTINE ACTION HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY CARRIED OUT.
>> Reporter: YOU'RE PUTTING THEM IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS ISIS AND AL QAEDA AND HAMAS?
>> SO I THINK THAT THERE IS A GAP IN THE LAW WHICH I IDENTIFIED IN THINK REPORT, THAT THERE IS A CATEGORY OF CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR THAT IS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED WHICH CAN FALL UNDER THE DEFINITION OF TERRORISM, THAT AT THE MOMENT THERE IS NOT THE SUFFICIENT TOOLS TO BE ABLE TO STOP AND DETER.
>> Reporter: HALF OF THE PEOPLE THAT I SAW AT THE PROTEST WERE OVER 60.
I SPOKE TO A 70-SOMETHING--YEAR-OLD GRANDMA LITERALLY HOLDING UP A SIGN AND GETTING ARRESTED.
THEY'RE NOT WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF WHEN THEY THINK OF TERRORISTS.
>> NO, SURE, BUT - - >> Reporter: SO, ARE THEY TERRORISTS?
>> WELL, THAT -- THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM.
AND MY -- >> Reporter: BUT YOU'RE SAYING THEY ARE TERRORISTS?
>> NO, I'M SAYING THAT IF YOU -- >> Reporter: YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION.
DO YOU SEE THEM AS TERRORISTS?
>> IF YOU -- >> Reporter: YOU'RE THE ONE PUSHING THIS PRESCRIPTION, SO SURELY YOU THINK THAT THEY ARE TERRORISTS.
>> IF YOU BREAK THE LAW, THEN YOU FACE HAVING A CRIMINAL RECORD -- >> Reporter: A TERRORIST.
>> YOU FACE HAVING A CRITICISM NAD RECORD.
SO -- >> SUCH AS A TERRORIST.
>> THEY KNOW THAT, AND THAT'S WHY THEY ARE DOING IT.
>> Reporter: ARE YOU THE RIGHT PERSON TO BE INDIVIDUALING, TO HAVE BEEN ADVISING THE UK GOVERNMENT ON THIS?
YOU WERE THE HEAD OF LABOR FRIENDS OF ISRAEL.
>> YEAH.
>> Reporter: YOU'VE TAKEN SEVERAL ALL-EXPENSES TRIPS PAID TO ISRAEL.
YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE WOULD QUESTION YOUR MOTIVATIONS.
>> I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WOULD WANT TO, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO ACCOUNT FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS.
BUT PEOPLE WILL MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS ON --ON ME.
THE -- MY INTEREST AND DECLARATIONS ARE OUT IN THE OPEN.
THAT'S WHY YOU'RE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT.
WE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO SAY, IT'S NOT OKAY TO BREAK THE LAW AND TO TERRORIZE WORKING PEOPLE.
>> Reporter: IN THE MEANTIME, OTHER ACTIVISTS CONTINUE TO TAKE DIRECT ACTION.
>> WE'RE STILL LOGGED ON -- >> Reporter: AGAINST ARMS MANUFACTURERS THEY ACCUSE OF COMPLICITY IN THE BOMBING OF GAZA.
AND PROTESTERS HOLDING UP SIGNS CONTINUE TO RISK ARREST TO SUPPORT PALESTINE ACTION.
>> ISABEL YOUNG REPORTING THERE.
AND A NOTE, THE UK GOVERNMENT SAYS PALESTINE ACTION WAGED A CAMPAIGN, INCLUDING WEAPONS AND VIOLENCE, AGAINST PEOPLE WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN IRRESPONSIBLE TO IGNORE.
IT DID NOT PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR THOSE CLAIMS.
> >> NOW AUTOCRACY IS ON THE RISE AROUND THE WORLD, AND OUR NEXT GUESS SAYS IT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES.
STACY ACHE RACKS SPEAKS WITH MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT WHAT SHE SAYS IS HAPPENING RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO STOP IT.
>> STACY EY ABRAMS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> WE CALLED YOU SPECIFICALLY FOR AN ESSAY, PRETTY STRONGLY WORDED ESSAY, YOU PUBLISHED IN "TIME. "
"WE CAN STOP THE RISE OF AMERICAN AUTOCRACY. "
WHY NOW?
WHAT IS IT THAT TRIGGERED THIS PIECE NOW?
>> BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.
WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT AS THOUGH IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S LOOMING.
IT'S CRITICAL WE UNDERSTAND IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING.
BUT IF WE WANT TO RECLAIM OUR COUNTRY, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE MOMENT WE'RE IN, AND WE'VE GOT TO START FIGHTING BACK IMMEDIATELY.
>> WHO'S THE WE?
>> THE WE IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVES THAT DEMOCRACY SHOULD BE THE ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE FOR HOW WE LIVE TOGETHER IN THIS COUNTRY.
AUTOCRACY, AUTHORITARIANISM IS AN ALTERNATIVE.
UNDER THE PROPOSED REGIME OF THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION AND ITS SUPPORTERS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WE HAVE AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME WHERE WE'VE SEEN AN EXPANSION OF EXECUTIVE POWER, A SUBLIMATION OF COMPETING POWERS, BOTH CONGRESS AND THE COURTS.
BUT WE'VE ALSO SEEN ATTACKS ON THE MEDIA, ATTACKS ON COMMUNITIES.
WE'VE SEEN THE KIDNAPPINGS OF PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY, INCLUDING CITIZENS.
BUT WE'RE ALSO WATCHING THE MILITARY OCCUPATION OF OUR CITIES.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS IN AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES.
AND THAT IS BEING LED BY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SPEARHEADED AND HELMED BY DONALD TRUMP.
>> THE REASON I ASK WHO THE WE IS, ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN YOUR PIECE THAT IS HISTORICALLY, GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE TAKEN ON AN AUTHORITARIAN CAST OR HAVE BECOME, YOU KNOW, TRUE AUTHORITARIANS ARE OFTEN VOTED IN.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> IT HAS TO BE SAID, THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS WERE VOTED IN.
THE PRESIDENT WAS VOTED IN.
WE COULD DISPUTE WHAT THE MARGINS ARE.
BUT THAT IS THE TRUTH OF IT.
SO DOES THAT SUGGEST THAT THERE IS A CRITICAL MASS OF PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH WHAT HE'S DOING AND WITH WHAT THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS ARE SUPPORTING?
>> NOT AT ALL.
SO ONE OF THE FEATURES OF MOND-DAY AUTHORITARIANISM, WE ARE USED TO THINKING ABOUT AUTOCRATS RISING, DICTATORS RISING THROUGH COUP D'ETAT, MILITARY OVERTHROWS.
THE MODERN VERSION IS WINNING ELECTIONS.
ERDOGAN IN TURKEY.
MODENI INDIA.
PUTIN IN RUSSIA.
WE'VE FORGOTTEN THEY'VE BEEN ELECTED INTO THESE POSITIONS, AND THEY MAINTAIN ELECTIONS IN THOSE NATION STATES.
BOLSONARO.
MADURO.
MADURO HAS ELECTIONS.
VENEZUELA HAS ELECTIONS, BUT THERE IS NO QUESTION IT'S AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME, AND IT IS NAIVETE WE HOLD IN AMERICA THAT IT'S ONLY AUTHORITARIANISM IF WE DIDN'T VOTE THOSE PEOPLE INTO OFFICE.
THE QUESTION ISN'T WHAT DID WE VOTE THEM FOR, IT'S, WHAT ARE THEY DOING WITH THE POWER THEY HAVE NOW IN THE REASON THIS IS SO IMPORTANT THAT IS WE ARE NOT PROTECTED FROM AUTHORITARIANISM BECAUSE WE HAVE DEMOCRACY.
WE USHERED IN AUTHORITARIANISM USING DEMOCRACY, NOW IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY FROM THOSE WHO WOULD TAKE IT FROM US.
>> YOUR ARGUMENT IS - -WELL, YOU LAY OUT WHAT YOU CALL A TEN-STEP PROCESS.
AND YOU SAY THAT WE ARE AT ABOUT STEP NINE.
WELL, LET ME GO THROUGH THE STEPS.
YOU SAY YOU HAVE A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION BUT IT'S THE LAST TIME.
EXCEED THE LIMITS OF THEIR EXECUTIVE POWER.
NUMEROUS EXECUTIVE ORDERS CLAIMING AUTHORITY THAT THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T ACTUALLY HOLD.
THEY TAKE COMPETING VERSIONS OF POWER, CONGRESS AND THE COURTS, AND MAKE THEM COMPLICIT OR NEUTER THEM.
GO AFTER THE MEDIA.
OBVIOUS.
GUT THE GOVERNMENT.
FIRE THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO DO STUFF.
GO AFTER THE PEOPLE WHO DO THE GOOD WORK.
YOU SALAH FIRMS AND NONPROFITS.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMEONE TO BLAME.
IF THEY CAN PUSH THAT FORWARD, THEN WE'RE FIGHTING EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF FIGHTING FOR OUR COUNTRY.
THEY IZE PRIVATE VIOLENCE.
THAT'S WHERE YOU SAY WE'RE AT, STEP NINE.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, INCENTIVIZE PRIVATE VIOLENCE WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT AND HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?
>> WELL, WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED IN MINNESOTA TO SPEAKER WIRTH MAN.
ONE OF THE WAYS PRIVATE VIOLENCE TAKES HOLD AS A MEANS OF CONTROL IS PEOPLE FEEL THREATENED.
THEY FEEL A CONSTANT SENSE THAT THEIR RIGHTS AND THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES ARE UNDER DURESS.
WHAT WE HAVE SEEN HAPPEN IS THAT WE HAVE A PRIVATE POLICE OPERATING IN THE UNITED STATES CALLED I. C. E. THEY GO AROUND MASKED.
THEY DO NOT OPERATE UNDER THE RULES THAT WE UNDERSTAND IN TERMS OF DUE PROCESS.
THEY DO NOT HAVE TO REVEAL THEMSELVES.
THEY HAVE BLATANTLY OPPOSED ACTUALLY COMPLYING WITH EXISTING LAW.
WE HAVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SUMMONING UP NATIONAL GUARDSMEN.
WE HAVE A COURT IN CALIFORNIA SAYING, NO, YOU CANNOT USE THE THREAT OF EMERGENCY OR DECLARATION OF FALSE EMERGENCY TO JUSTIFY THIS OCCUPATION, AND WE ARE SEEING IT HAPPEN IN WASHINGTON, D. C. THE WAY PRIVATE VIOLENCE TAKES HOLD IN A TYRANNICAL, AUTHORITARIAN, AUTOCRATIC -- INSERT LANGUAGE HERE --THE WAY IT TAKES HOLD IS BECAUSE PEOPLE START TO BELIEVE THEY AREN'T PHYSICALLY SAFE, AND THEY BELIEVE IT IS OKAY TO RESPOND TO THAT LACK OF SAFETY.
BUT YOU ALSO SEE PEOPLE THINKING THAT VIOLENCE IS THE WAY TO RESPOND TO HARM.
AND THAT IS WHY WE SAW THE ASSASSINATION OF A SPEAKER, A STATE SPEAKER.
WE HAVE SEEN POLITICAL VIOLENCE RISE IN THIS COUNTRY.
WE'VE SEEN THREATS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE RISE.
AND WE CAN'T SEE IT AS A SEPARATE PIECE.
THEY ARE OF A PIECE, AND THEY WORK TOGETHER.
AND THAT GOES TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT STEP NINE.
WHEN WE WERE WRITING THIS PIECE - -AND I'M SO PROUD TO BE WORKING WITH PROFESSOR KIM SHIPPEL FROM PRINCETON UNIVERSITY.
THE POINT OF THIS IS, THESE THINGS CAN HAPPEN SIMULTANEOUSLY.
WE ARE ACTUALLY WATCHING STEP TEN AS WELL.
WHEN TEXAS GERRYMANDERED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DECADE TO INTENTIONALLY STRIP PEOPLE OF COLOR OF THEIR VOTING POWER AND TO HAND POWER TO A POLITICAL PARTY, THAT WAS STEP TEN.
WHEN GEORGIA PURGED 471,000 VOTERS WITH VERY CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT EFFECT IT WOULD HAVE ON MINORITY VOTERS, THAT WAS STEP TEN.
WE ARE WATCHING THIS HAPPEN AROUND THE COUNTRY.
WHEN YOU INTERFERE WITH ELECTIONS, THE END OF DEMOCRACY DOESN'T MEAN THE END OF VOTING.
IT MEANS THE END OF VOTING ACTUALLY MAKING A DIFFERENCE.
THAT IS WHAT WE'RE FACING RIGHT NOW.
I WOULD ACTUALLY SAY WE'VE NOW HIT ALL OF THE TEN STEPS AND THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH MORE WILL WE SEE?
BECAUSE THESE STEPS REPEAT.
THEY AMPLIFY.
AND THEY CAN HAPPEN SIMULTANEOUSLY.
>> STEP TEN IS, YOU MAKE SURE NO ONE EVER VOTES AGAIN.
NOW YOU HAVE THEM CAPTIVE.
NOW YOU'VE GOT THEM SCARED.
NOW YOU'VE GOT THEM POOR.
NOW YOU HAVE THE POWER.
THIS IS A VIOLENT COUNTRY, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF GUNS.
A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO WEAPONS.
NOT TO QUIBBLE WITH YOU OR YOUR KIND OF STEPS HERE, BUT HOW DO YOU IDENTIFY THAT PARTICULAR FACET OF AMERICAN LIFE WITH WHAT YOU CALL THIS AUTHORITARIAN TAKEOVER, THIS AUTHORITARIAN PUSH?
>> SO --PART OF THE RESPONSIBILITY --YOU ASKED ME AT THE BEGINNING, WHO DID I MEAN BY WE?
WE IS THE PEOPLE.
BUT THEY, THE AUTHORITARIANS, ARE THE STATE.
AND THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE WE HAVE TO PUT RESPONSIBILITY.
VIOLENCE IS PART OF HUMAN NATURE.
AS YOU POINTED OUT, POLITICAL VIOLENCE HAS ALWAYS ATTENDED ANY POLITICAL SYSTEM.
IF YOU'RE READING THE BIBLE, VIOLENCE IS RIFE THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE.
THE DIFFERENCE IS WHO IS WIELDING VIOLENCE AS A TOOL FOR THE ACCRUAL OF POWER, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT QUESTION UNDERSTAND AND IT WE IDENTIFY IT.
INCENTIVIZING PRIVATE VIOLENCE IS A STEP IN AUTHORITARIANISM BECAUSE IT'S WHEN THE STATE STARTS TO CO-OPT THE PEOPLE INTO DOING ITS WILL.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE US FIGHTING EACH OTHER, WE ARE NOT FIGHTING AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE TAKING OUR POWER FROM US.
I'M NOT DIMINISHING HOW HARMFUL IT IS AND HOW OFTEN WE SEE POLITICAL VIOLENCE HAPPENING.
BUT WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT WHEN THE STATE SUBORNS THAT, WHEN THE STATE INVENTIVIZES THAT, WHEN THE STATE MIMICS THE KINDS OF BEHAVIORS THAT THE PEOPLE THEN START TO BELIEVE ARE NECESSARY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, THEN THAT'S WHEN AUTHORITARIANISM HAS TO BE ROOTED OUT AND HAS TO BE NOTED AS THE CAUSE.
>> IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE SPEAKING OF VIOLENCE, THE U. S. ATTORNEY, THE NEWLY NAMED U. S. ATTORNEY IN WASHINGTON, D. C. , WHO BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, THE DISTRICT'S UNIQUE SORT OF LEGAL FRAMEWORK AND RELATIONSHIP TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ALSO PROSECUTES LOCAL CRIMES IN D. C. , RECENTLY ISSUED A RULING THAT GUN CRIMES, YOU KNOW, CARRYING CONCEALED, ET CETERA, WOULD NOT BE PROSECUTED.
BUT THAT SHE HAS BROUGHT FELONY CHARGES AGAINST INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE PROTESTING.
LIKE THERE WAS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO THREW A SANDWICH AND WAS --WAS CHARGED WITH A FELONY.
THE GRAND JURY DECLINED TO INDICT.
IN FACT, THE GRAND JURIES OF D. C. HAVE REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO VALIDATE CHARGES IN SOME OF THESE CASES.
ESPECIALLY NOTEWORTHY GIVEN THAT THIS PRESIDENT REFUSED TO CALL IN THE NATIONAL GUARD FOR MANY HOURS WHEN HIS SUPPORTERS WERE VIOLENTLY ATTACKING THE CAPITOL.
BUT YET HIS APPOINTED REPRESENTATIVES HAVE, YOU KNOW, ISSUED FELONY CHARGES, OR TRIED TO CHARGE PEOPLE WITH FELONIES FOR THROWING A SANDWICH AT SOMEBODY.
>> AND THAT'S AN IMPORTANT DISTINCT.
THE REASON THEY WENT AFTER THE PERSON THROWING THE SANDWICH WAS BECAUSE THAT WAS SOMEONE WHO EXPRESSED DISSENT.
AND IN AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME, YOU RESPOND TO DISSENT WITH OVERWHELMING FORCE.
A MAN THREW A SANDWICH AND FACED A FEDERAL GRAND JURY.
THE WEIGHT AND HEFT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAME AFTER A MAN WHO IN A MOMENT OF PANIC AND ANGER THREW A SANDWICH.
AUTHORITARIANISM AMPLIFIES THE SMALLEST BEHAVIORS OF CITIZENSHIP AND TURNS THEM INTO CRIMES.
THAT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.
BECAUSE IF YOU CAN GO TO JAIL FOR A SANDWICH, THEN HOW DARE YOU PROTEST IN THE STREETS?
HOW DARE YOU TAKE ACTION AGAINST?
HOW DARE YOU SUE?
IT'S WHY THEY DEFUNDED PUBLIC TELEVISION.
YOU DEFUND PUBLIC BROADCASTING BECAUSE PUBLIC BROADCASTING DARED TO TELL THE TRUTH.
INSTEAD OF JUST BEING ANGRY AND FIGHTING IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, YOU STRIP PUBLIC BROADCASTING OF ITS ABILITY TO DO ITS JOB.
AND SO IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE ACTUALLY LOOK AT THESE SMALL MOMENTS AND KNIT THEM TOGETHER.
THAT'S WHY THE TEN STEPS ARE SO IMPORTANT, BECAUSE WE NEED PEOPLE TO SEE NOT THESE INDIVIDUAL, DISTINCT MOMENTS BUT AS PART OF A PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR AND A COORDINATED ATTEMPT TO UNDERMINE THE DEMOCRACY OF OUR COUNTRY AND MAKE AUTHORITARIANISM SEEM NORMAL.
THAT IS NOT NORMAL.
>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN OPPOSITION PARTY IN THIS COUNTRY.
IN FACT, THE MARGINS IN THE CONGRESS ARE VERY, VERY NARROW.
THERE WERE A NUMBER OF MOMENTS WHERE PEOPLE COULD HAVE STOPPED SOME OF THESE INITIATIVES, FOR EXAMPLE.
I'M JUST CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK IT THAT IS THEY'RE JUST -- IF THE SITUATION IS AS DIRE AS YOU DESCRIBE, WHY MORE PEOPLE AREN'T WILLING TO OBJECT OR SAY NO?
>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN POWER.
THE QUESTION ISN'T, ARE THEY VOTING AGAINST THEIR SELF-INTEREST?
IT'S, WHAT INTERESTS DO THEY HOLD?
IF YOU ARE SENATOR DAN SULLIVAN WHO WATCHES HIS COLLEAGUE, SENATOR LISA MURKOWSKI, GO TO THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE AND PLAY A RECORDING OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS, WHO ARE FACING A TYPHOON, A TSUNAMI, AND THAT TSUNAMI WARNING ONLY CAME ABOUT BECAUSE OF PUBLIC BROADCASTING, LISA MURKOWSKI VOTED NO, DAN SULLIVAN SAID, YES, IT'S TRUE THAT THIS WILL CAUSE THEM HARM, BUT I'LL FIX IT LATER.
BECAUSE HIS BEST INTEREST IN THAT MOMENT, HIS SELF-INTEREST WAS POWER.
HIS SELF-INTEREST WAS BASICALLY BECOMING COMPLICIT AND NOT OFFENDING THE AUTHORITARIAN LEADER IN THIS CASE DONALD TRUMP.
WE HAVE TO STOP THINKING THAT SELF-INTEREST IS ONE THING.
IF THE INTEREST YOU HAVE IS POWER, THEN SUBLIMATING YOURSELF TO THIS CURRENT AUTHORITARIAN REGIME FEELS LIKE NOT JUST SURVIVAL, BUT IT GETS YOU A TICKET TO THE DANCE.
AND SO WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE WHO ARE ELECTED TO REPRESENT US WILL NOT DO SO UNLESS WE HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, AND NOT JUST AT THE BALLOT BOX DURING MIDTERMS, BUT EVERY SINGLE DAY.
BUT HERE'S THE OTHER PIECE.
HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL BE BETTER.
THERE HAVE BEEN PROTESTS IN AUTHORITARIAN NATIONS SINCE THE MOMENT THOSE AUTOCRATS CAME TO POWER.
THAT IS WHY THE URJENS IS NOW.
WE HAVE NOT FULLY FALLEN.
WE ARE IN AN AUTHORITARIAN MOMENT BUT WE ARE NOT SO FAR IN WE CAN'T FIND OUR WAY OUT.
WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE WHERE WE ARE.
WE HAVE TO THEN ACTIVATE OURSELVES TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
THAT'S TO YOUR POINT OF WHO'S VOTING FOR THIS, WHO'S SUPPORTING IT?
THERE'S A REASON REPUBLICANS STOPPED HAVING TOWN HALL MEETINGS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
THEY KNOW PEOPLE AREN'T HAPPY.
WHEN WE SEE SEE THE ECONOMY COLLAPSE BECAUSE OF RISING INFLATION, RISING UNEMPLOYMENT, SLOWING ECONOMIC GROWTH, THE REASON THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS TRYING TO REMOVE A MEMBER OF THE FEDERAL BOARD OF RESERVE GOVERNORS IS BECAUSE HE NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO MANUFACTURE AN ANSWER AS TO WHY THE ECONOMY IS NOT DOING AS IT SHOULD.
SO WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE, WE HAVE TO ACTIVATE.
AND MOST FUNDAMENTALLY, WE HAVE TO RECLAIM OUR RIGHTS AS CITIZENS TO A COUNTRY THAT WORKS FOR ALL OF US.
AND ULTIMATELY, THAT'S WHAT I WANT.
I'M NOT HERE JUST TO HARANGUE THE AUTHORITARIANS.
I'M HERE TO CALL INTO ACTION THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY.
AND EVEN IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR RIGHT TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES, IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR OWN FREEDOM AND YOUR OWN POWER, THEN WE'VE GOT TO STOP THOSE WHO WOULD TAKE THOSE THINGS FROM US RIGHT NOW.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS IN THIS MOMENT?
WHAT'S THEIR ROLE?
AND ARE THEY FULFILLING IT?
>> WE ARE IN A MOMENT WHERE WE ARE LOOKING FOR LEADERS.
BUT I ACTUALLY BELIEVE WHAT WE NEED IS LEADERSHIP.
LEADERS ANOINT INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR US.
THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE WE ALL HAVE TO OWN FOR OURSELVES THE ROLE WE CAN PLAY.
I AM A VERY PROUD DEMOCRAT.
AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT I'M PART OF A VERY LARGE PARTY THAT HAS MULTIPLE ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES.
WE ARE THE MINORITY PARTY, WHICH MEANS WE DO NOT HAVE THE NORMAL LOVERS OF POWER.
BUT DEMOCRATS HAVE TO STILL SHOW THAT WE CAN DELIVER.
AND THAT MEANS THAT WHEN AUTHORITARIAN BEHAVIORS IMPACT OUR PEOPLE, WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
WHEN PEOPLE START GOING HUNGRY, WE'VE GOT TO BE THERE TO PROVIDE ACCESS TO FOOD.
WHEN PEOPLE CAN'T GET WHAT THEY NEED, WE'VE GOT TO HELP THEM FIND SOLUTIONS.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM, BUT WE CANNOT BEMOAN OUR FATES AND HOLD OUR HEAD IN OUR HANDS.
WE'VE GOT TO DO THE WORK.
WHAT I WOULD SAY TO DEMOCRATS IS, NO, WE MAY NOT HOLD THE MAJORITY, BUT WE ARE WATCHING ACROSS THE COUNTRY - -CALIFORNIA, OREGON, AND WASHINGTON HAVE SAID WE'RE GOING TO PROVIDE PUBLIC HELD TO OUR PEOPLE.
ALSO DOWN IN SMUL COMMUNITIES, THEY'RE DOING COMMUNITY GARDENS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE USDA FOOD THEY RELIED ON IS NO LONGER COMING.
WE HAVE, TO AS DEMOCRATS AT EVERY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT, SHOW THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM THAT, WE SEE THE PAIN THAT WE'RE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING TO MITIGATE IT.
WE CAN'T SOLVE IT UNTIL WE HAVE POWER AGAIN, BUT WE CAN USE THE POWER WE DO HAVE.
BECAUSE BEFORE WE HAD POWER, BEFORE WE HAD MONEY, WE HAD EACH OTHER, AND DEMOCRATS ARE BEST WHEN WE WERE DOING THE WORK OF THE PEOPLE.
>> AND BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, I'LL TELL YOU ONE PEOPLE SAY TO ME.
MAYBE THEY SAY THE SAME THING TO YOU.
"I DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE NEWS ANYMORE, IT'S TOO DEPRESSING. "
SO PEOPLE SAY THAT.
THEY SAY, "IT'S JUST TOO DEPRESSING, I HAVE TO FOCUS ON MY HOUSE, MY FAMILY, MY GARDEN," WHATEVER.
I'M CURIOUS IF PEOPLE SAY THAT TO YOU.
IF THEY DO, WHAT DO YOU SAY?
>> THEY DO.
MY POINT IS, DO YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN THAT GARDEN?
OR DO YOU WANT SOMEONE WHO CAN SAY THEY WANT YOUR GARDEN FOR THEMSELVES AND YOU CAN'T CALL THE POLICE BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER ANSWER TO YOU.
YOU CAN'T CALL YOUR CITY COUNCILMEMBER BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER GET TO MAKE DECISIONS.
YOU CAN'T GO TO YOUR JOB BECAUSE THEY'VE DECIDED YOUR JOB IS OBSOLETE BECAUSE THEY'VE DECIDED THE WORK YOU DO IS NO LONGER VALUABLE TO THE REGIME.
OUR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM IS YOKED TO OUR NATIONAL BELIEF IN FREEDOM.
IF WE DO NOT HAVE IT AT A NATIONAL LEVEL, WE CANNOT ENJOY IT AT A LOCAL LEVEL.
AUTHORITARIANS WANT TO TAKE WHAT WE HAVE, THEY WANT TO TAKE WHAT WE KNOW.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, THEY WANT TO TAKE OUR WILL TO WANT MORE.
WE CAN FIGHT BACK.
>> AND HOW COME YOU AREN'T DISCOURAGED?
WHAT KEEPS YOU GOING?
>> MY GRANDFATHER, MY MOTHER'S FATHER, WAS BORN 25 YEARS AFTER THE END OF SLAVERY.
WITHIN TWO GENERATIONS, HIS GRANDDAUGHTER BECAME THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY TO BE NOMINATED TO BE GOVERNOR OF A STATE.
THAT ARC OF HISTORY TELLS ME THAT WE CAN HOLD THIS COUNTRY.
THAT EVEN THOSE WHO WERE TRAMPLED UPON DID WHAT THEY COULD TO PRESERVE OUR NATION.
IT IS NOT THAT WE DON'T GET TO BE DEPRESSED, BUT WE DON'T GET TO ALLOW DEPRESSION TO STEAL OUR FUTURES FROM US.
THEY WANT US TO FEEL BROKEN.
THEY WANT US TO FEEL BEATEN.
I WAS RAISED IN A FAMILY THAT HAS OVERCOME SO MANY ODDS.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, THEY'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT DESPITE HOW LITTLE THEIR CITIZENSHIP WAS VALUED, THAT BELONGED TO THEM, AND THEY WERE GOING TO USE IT TO ITS FULLEST EXTENT.
I AM HERE BECAUSE --AND I AM -- I'M ENGAGED BECAUSE I WANT THE FULL MEASURE OF MY CITIZENSHIP TO BE MADE REAL.
>> STACEY ABRAMS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
> >> AND FINALLY, IMAGINE BREAKING FOUR GUINNESS WORLD RECORDS IN A SINGLE DAY.
THAT'S WHAT 65-YEAR-OLD PAUL JAMISON DID IN THE UK THIS WEEKEND.
DIAGNOSED WITH MOTOR NEURON DISEASE, HE MADE THE FASTEST MILE WHILE BEING PUSHED IN A WHEELCHAIR, ONCE BY A WOMAN, THEN BY A MAN, AND CONQUERED TWO OTHER TIME AND DISTANCE CHALLENGES WHILE BEING PULLED ALONG WITH DOGS.
PAUL DESCRIBED HIS JOURNEY AS BEING FROM TRAGEDY TO TRIUMPH AFTER BEING TOLD IN 2017 THAT HE'D ONLY HAVE SIX MONTHS LEFT TO LIVE.
HE HAS, OF COURSE, DEFIED THOSE ODDS.
IT IS AN INCREDIBLE INSPIRATION.
> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.
ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANK FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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