State Rep. James Talarico on Why He Fled Texas to Fight Gerrymandering

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Now, to Texas where a new redistricting plan backed by Republicans is causing a political standoff. Critics accuse them of a partisan power grab as they look to gerrymander more safe seats ahead of the next congressional election. So, say the Democrats, many of whom left the state in an attempt to stall this proposal. State Representative James Talarico joins Michel Martin to explain why.

 

MICHEL MARTIN: Thanks Christiane. Representative Talarico, thanks so much for talking with us.

 

JAMES TALARICO: Thanks for having me.

 

MARTIN: So you’ve got the Texas flag behind you, but you’re not actually in Texas. Do you mind telling us where you are?

 

TALARICO: We’re in the state of Illinois. We’re trying to be careful because of security concerns. As I’m sure you’ve reported, President Trump has threatened to send the FBI to come find us. Governor Abbott has threatened to remove us from our, our duly elected positions in the legislature. And then Ken Paxton, our Attorney general in Texas, sent out a tweet to his thousands of followers asking them to quote, “hunt us down.” And so because of all that you know, we’ve, we’ve received a lot of threats including multiple bomb threats.

 

MARTIN: Yeah. I heard that there were bomb threats at the place where you were staying. But, so, so when did the idea of breaking quorum, of leaving the state in order to deny the Republicans a quorum first emerge? How did that happen?

 

TALARICO: Well, it was when we first started seeing reporting that the president was going to ask Texas Republicans to redraw our political maps in the middle of the decade. Typically, this is done at the beginning of a decade after a new census. That’s exactly what happened in Texas in 2021. And once we heard that they may try to, to rig these maps in the middle of the game so that the president doesn’t have to face accountability in the midterms we knew we may have to take some dramatic actions to protect the democratic process, not just in Texas, but across the country. 

And so this is, you know, we’re not fighting for just Democrats, we’re fighting for independents and Republicans too. This is about whether or not the people, all of us, can change our government from the bottom up, whether we can hold powerful people, including the most powerful man in the country, accountable.

 

MARTIN: This isn’t exactly easy. You know, you’ve gotta leave whatever job you have that, you know, the Texas legislature’s not, you know, full time. So you have other things to do. You have family members, it’s not easy on people’s lives. So I just was curious about like, what, what were some of the conversations that you had in the, in the caucus about, you know, whether this was the right thing to do or not?

 

TALARICO: Yeah, it was, it was certainly not a decision we made lightly. As you mentioned, many of my colleagues are leaving behind young children. Some of them are leaving behind aging parents. We’re all leaving behind our day jobs, which is how we make ends meet and pay our bills. But we know that this is a lot bigger than us. It’s a lot bigger than any one politician or any one political party. This is about whether or not people can elect the representatives of their choice, which is the most fundamental part of this representative democracy. And, and so we felt like we had to take a stand. 

And thankfully we, over the past week, I think have really focused the country’s attention on this power grab in Texas. I know that the, the Google searches for gerrymandering and redistricting are through the roof, which, you know, as a former teacher, that makes my heart happy that people are, are using this opportunity to learn about our broken political system. And, and hopefully it sparks a conversation about how to fix this democracy going forward. So that works for, for everybody. 

 

MARTIN: The republicans control the governor’s office. They control all the top state offices. You know, both United States senators, the Attorney General, the governor, et cetera, and both houses of the legislature. Okay. But in 2021, Democrats did the same thing to deny Republicans a quorum that was not perceived as a success. Do you, do you, do you disagree with that assessment? I mean, the bill that had been, that you were trying to stop passed anyway, what do you have to say about that?

 

TALARICO: Yeah, I would disagree with that assessment, that analysis. When we broke quorum in 2021, it was over a voter suppression bill, and I should say this quorum break and that quorum break, those are the only two quorum breaks in 20 years in Texas. So this is not a common occurrence. Because of the tremendous cost financial, personal, political, legal, it’s not something that that should be undergone without a lot of thought and without a lot of justification. It’s an extreme tool that the minority has in our toolbox, and it’s protected by the Texas State Constitution. And so we’re not breaking any laws, we’re not doing anything that’s not in the house rules. And it’s why it’s so strange that people are threatening us with arrest and with vacating our seats because this, there’s a long tradition in Texas and in America where, here in, in the land of Lincoln – Abe Lincoln broke quorum as a state senator back in 1840 by jumping out of a window at the Illinois State Capitol. So, th this is a time honored tradition, and it’s not something that we, we undergo lightly. 

And so to answer your question, that last quorum break in 2021 over the voter suppression bill, while it didn’t kill the bill it did put a national spotlight on the issue, which pressured our Republican colleagues to take the worst parts out of that bill, a ban on souls to the polls, which is Sunday morning voting when a lot of African American churches take their members to, to have their voices heard in the Democratic process that was taken outta the bill. A provision that would’ve allowed Republicans in our state to overturn election results that they didn’t like, that was taken outta the bill, all because of our quorum break and the attention that it galvanized across the nation. 

 

MARTIN: But you know, the governor is threatening to try to find a way to vacate your seats so that he can then appoint people to replace you. You know, calling on the FBI, – which of course Republicans do control now – to go and bring you in, as it were there are talking about deputizing you know, the Texas Rangers to somehow cross state lines, which they do not have the authority to do at present. And then they’re also talking about – I don’t know how this would work – but charging you with bribery if you use any campaign funds to subsidize the costs of this, of this, you know, sort of experience. Do any of those, in your estimation, have any legal force at all?

 

TALARICO: No. And I’m not a lawyer. I’m a former public school teacher, but I’ve got a lot of colleagues who are very talented lawyers. And we’ve brought on a team of, of lawyers to help us, given these threats. All of them agree that the legal theories underpinning these threats are laughable. That doesn’t mean they won’t they won’t succeed. I mean, our courts are highly politicized, especially in Texas. And so we’ll, we’ll see if it works. But if we’re just going by rule of law you know, I think these should be laughed out of court. 

And I think it’s equally laughable that Ken Paxton, the most corrupt politician in Texas, perhaps the most corrupt politician in the country, is accusing us of bribery when he was literally impeached on a bipartisan basis in the Texas House of Representatives for his corruption and for enriching himself and his donors. So, you know, this is hypocrisy on, at the highest level. And you know, I think it’s important to realize that this redistricting attempt, this power grab, is corrupt too. We oftentimes think of corruption as just involving money. That is certainly one kind of corruption. But corruption is the abuse of power. It’s the betrayal of the public trust, and this is corruption at the highest level. 

 

MARTIN: So talk about the maps then. It’s not exactly a secret what their objective is. I mean, their objective is, at the request of the president, he was very clear about this too, to re-draw the lines to give Republicans the advantage, or so they believe, in five additional seats. And that would mean consolidating seats that are currently held by Democrats or just basically redrawing the lines. And even the Supreme Court has ruled that you can’t redistrict along racial lines. Their argument is that this isn’t racial at all, this is partisan, and that that’s perfectly allowed. What do you say about that?

 

TALARICO: Well, one, I would disagree that this is not racial gerrymandering. You take a look at these maps and the communities they divide, the voices they dilute, it is primarily black and brown. It is African American communities and it’s Latino communities across the state of Texas two growing populations in our state that they are disenfranchising with this racist and discriminatory gerrymandering. 

But I also want to point out how crazy it is that they seem to be very okay, admitting publicly that this is a naked political power grab. That may be legal, but it is certainly not moral and is certainly not supported by the vast majority of Americans. There was polling data released earlier this week showing that this power grab in Texas is wildly unpopular across the state of Texas, including among Trump supporters. Because no one likes cheating and no one likes rigging an upcoming election.

People should be evaluated on their policies and their record. And if those policies are unpopular, then you should face consequences as an elected official regardless of your political party. And unfortunately, the president has been embroiled in corruption, receiving planes from a foreign government. He’s kicking millions of people off their healthcare to fund tax breaks for billionaires and those policies and those actions are unpopular. And as the most powerful man in the country, he needs accountability. He needs to face consequences at the ballot box not just for all of us, but for him, that will make him a better president. So even if you’re a Trump supporter, him facing accountability in the next election will make him a better leader for all of us. And I hope we all want that, regardless of how we feel about the President.

 

MARTIN: It’s interesting that your governor, governor Abbott, Greg Abbott in a number of his interviews with, particularly with the conservative media, you know, it has to be said, his argument is that the Democrats are – that it’s A, the Democrats who are cheating by leaving the state, he says that Texans stay and fight, and that, that you’re sort of, you’re, you’re abdicating your responsibility, but it’s also that you are the ones who are not willing to stay and fight and argue it out. What would you say to that?

 

TALARICO: Well, we’re not running away from a fight. We’re running into the fight. We’re running into the front lines of this fight and taking on a lot of risks to do it. We’re the ones facing threats, including threats of violence, and Greg Abbott’s in his fancy mansions surrounded by security detail. So you tell me who’s more courageous in this fight? 

And I’ll just say again, that we are taking on all this risk so that we can fight for the people. I, I think there’s a stark moral difference here. Greg Abbott and Texas Republican politicians are willing to disempower the people of Texas to protect their positions. Texas Democrats are willing to give up our positions to empower the people of Texas. That is the starkest contrast that, that you can draw. And I’m happy to have the people of our state judge us on those merits.

 

MARTIN: The other argument that, that people are making, and I’ve heard this again in the conservative media, is that the Democrats have left for states that are themselves heavily gerrymandered, that have a historic– there’s an historic precedent in many of these states for, for substantially gerrymandered districts, which happen to favor Democrats. So what would you say to that?

 

TALARICO: I’ve condemned those maps including the one here in Illinois. Gerrymandering is wrong, whichever party does it in whatever part of the country it’s done. We have to get gerrymandering out of our politics. And, you know, Democrats in Congress, when they had the majority, they tried to pass a ban on partisan gerrymandering for the whole country in red states and blue states, and every single Republican in Congress voted against that ban. 

But gerrymandering is a bipartisan problem, and it has to end. All I wanna say is that this, what’s happening here in Texas is a whole nother level of corruption and rigging of the system. It’s being done in the middle of the decade, and it’s being done at the direct request of the most powerful man in the country. And if people can’t understand how that is a lot more dangerous than typical gerrymandering, then, then I think we’ve got work to do to, to help people wake up to what’s happening in their name, in their government because these politicians are trying to pick their voters instead of voters picking their politicians. And, and if we walk down that road, I’m worried about where it leads.

 

MARTIN: And speaking of walking down that road, Democrats in some states like California and New York are saying it’s time to fight fire with fire. Governor Newsom in California, governor Hochul in New York is saying, okay, Texas, if, if you’re gonna go down that road, we’re gonna try to amend our state constitutions to do, to do something similar. And some of them say this with regret, but others say, you know, it’s about time. What do you say about that?

 

TALARICO: Well, I think that word if is, is very important. This should only be done in self-defense. I do not support any preemptive gerrymandering in blue states. I only think this should happen if Texas Republicans go through with this power grab and and cheat before the upcoming election. If that happens, then all bets are off. And the Democratic Party cannot unilaterally disarm. You stop a bully by standing up to them, by looking them right in the eye and not blinking. And that’s exactly what Democrats need to do if the bullies go forward with their plan in Texas.

 

MARTIN: Yeah. And you’ve actually introduced an independent redistricting commission bill in every session since 2021. And I’m just wondering, why do you think that that idea doesn’t have more appeal?

 

TALARICO: Because this is not an issue of party, it’s an issue of power. The people in power wanna hold onto power. It’s a tale as old as time. And this is one of the ways they do it. By gerrymandering, again, in both political parties. They, they draw these maps into these crazy shapes to manufacture the outcome they want, to insulate themselves from the will of the public. Again, nothing could be more un-American, nothing could be more undemocratic than that. And it is what leads to extremism in our politics. 

You know, my constituents often ask me why we at the state legislature aren’t focused on funding schools, making neighborhoods safer, expanding access to healthcare, lowering property taxes. Why do we focus on all this crazy culture war stuff? And I tell them, redistricting, gerrymandering, when you have deep red seats and deep blue seats and that’s all you have, you don’t have swing seats anymore, then the only competition for a politician is in their primary because the general election is predetermined. And so when the only competition is in your primary, that means the people you have to please are your farthest most extreme flank of your base. True for Republicans and true for a lot of Democrats. And that is why you see such extremism in our political discourse. Gerrymandering is the rock at the core of our broken political system, and we have to ban it everywhere, in all states.

 

MARTIN: The question for you as a Democrat is how are you so sure that most of the people in the state don’t agree with the Republicans? They think that what they’re doing is just fine? How do you, how do you know?

 

TALARICO: And, and, and that may be true, Texas got more competitive. I remember when I was growing up in Texas, Democrats lost statewide by 25, 30 points. Now we consistently lose by only single digits. And Joe Biden in 2020 against Donald Trump, it was a five point gap in our state. So Texas is not this deep red state that a lot of people think it is. We’re much more of a pink state right now trending toward purple. 

You had mentioned earlier that we’re a small minority in the Texas legislature. That’s actually not true. The only reason we can break quorum is because we’re such a large minority where we control about 42, 43% of the seats in the lower chamber. If we were a tiny minority, we couldn’t break quorum because we wouldn’t have enough numbers to, to halt business on the floor. And so I would say to your question that, that we should all be trying to compete for these votes. And and I think that is true for Republicans too. And I don’t think you’d be trying to cheat if you felt like you were gonna win the next election. 

 

MARTIN: So what, what would victory look like for you at, at the, at the moment? Do you see any, any movement here? Do you see any possibility that there might be, I don’t know, a meeting of the minds that would allow you to come home?

 

TALARICO: I mean, I, I, I hope for that. I pray for that. But I am planning, and my colleagues and I are planning for, if that doesn’t happen one, I think the public backlash has been overwhelming, again, across the political spectrum, and that’s a good thing. Second I think you’re seeing these blue states with trifectas moving toward retaliation. I’m hopeful that that will convince my Republican colleagues and President Trump to walk back from the brink. ’cause what we don’t want is a national tit for tat descending spiral of partisanship. We don’t want that. I don’t think anyone wants that. I certainly don’t. And so my hope is that all this pressure from the public, from blue states, all of it catalyzed by our quorum break, will put enough pressure on Republican politicians to, to do the right thing and, and walk us back from the edge.

 

MARTIN: Can you envision a day when people might actually return to something called regular order?

 

TALARICO: I do. I, I think that you know, history is a pendulum. And I do think 10 years of this Trumpian politics, this politics as blood sport, this where it feels more like professional wrestling than civic discourse. I do think people are getting tired of that. I think they see through it. I think they’re ready for sincerity and honesty and hope again. I do think those, those traits are gonna make a comeback. At least I, at least I hope so.

 

MARTIN: Texas State Representative James Talarico, thank you so much for speaking with us.

 

TALARICO: Thanks for having me again.