The Foods We Love Are At Risk. Sam Kass Says We Can Save Them

MICHEL MARTIN: Thanks, Christiane. Sam Kass, thank you so much for talking with us.

 

SAM KASS: Ah, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me.

 

MARTIN: Just to remind people, you were a longtime chef for the Obama family, a senior advisor for nutrition policy in the Obama administration, executive director of Michelle Obama’s Let’s Move! Campaign, which was all about kind of healthy eating fitness, especially aimed at kids. You’ve got a new book out, The Last Supper: How to Overcome the Coming Food Crisis. As briefly as you can, what’s the “coming food crisis?”

 

KASS: Well, you know, food and agriculture is on the front lines of climate change and, you know, it’s, we’re seeing issues play out around the world and certainly throughout the country in terms of the, the, you know, the impact that climate is having on our food system and our ability to feed, you know, ourselves. And you know, things like coffee prices are up this year ’cause of drought. Last year, chocolate prices were up 200%. We’ve seen collapses of Georgia peaches over the last few years, or snow crab fisheries in the Pacific Northwest that have been closed because of complete wipe out of, of those crab populations. You know, our very way of life is really under threat. 

And I think a lot of times we talk about it like 1.5 degrees or, you know, climate change. Nobody even really knows what the implications of that is. But when you start to get down into the role of food and the impact this is having on food, you start to understand it’s really our way of life that we’re trying to, trying to fight for. And so we have a lot of work to do.

 

MARTIN: If you were to stop 10 people on the street, do you think that they would know that there’s a problem, that they would say something, something not quite right? Or, or not?

 

KASS: I, I think right now that sadly the answer is no. I think we’ve done a really bad job at trying to connect these issues around climate change and the environment to people’s lives and help them understand why they have a real stake in solving these challenges. You know, like as a kid from Chicago, 1.5 degrees warmer sounds good. In fact, I would probably advocate for like, let’s make it five degrees warmer. You know, I don’t think we have connected these issues to the realities that we, you know, people are gonna start to feel them. And we have a lot of work to do there. 

And that’s especially true when we understand that, you know, food and agriculture is the number two driver of emissions globally. It’s the number one driver of biodiversity loss and deforestation. It’s the number one use of fresh water you know, on the planet. So what we’re eating is actually driving a huge amount of the problems that we face. And also sort of on the front lines of the impact. And so, yes, we, we have a lot of work to do to get — you know, harness the power of eaters to start pointing our system in a better direction.

 

MARTIN: You know, one of the things I’m curious about though is people who produce food directly – you know, farmers, ranchers, people who work in the agriculture space, people who produce the food –  they’re on the front lines. So what I’m curious about is these are also some of President Trump’s strongest constituencies. How do you understand that? 

 

KASS: There’s some deep inherent contradictions in sort of the, to the interest of producers around this country. One that, you know, is, is hard to fully rationalize, if I’m honest. You know, I think there’s a real libertarian independent, you know, tradition in rural America and, and in agriculture. I think the, you know, the GOP has captured that and politicized a lot of these issues as sort of liberal elite issues. So when you, you know, you talk to growers around climate change, they think, you know, you’re, you’re talking outta the side of your, the side of your head and think that you’re, you know, kind of crazy. But they’re definitely concerned about the changing weather. And a lot of it has to do with language. 

And right now, you know, growers are being absolutely battered by not only climate change, but also tariff policy you know, the healthcare policy and loss of, you know, rural hospitals. (07:06): I, I think the support is being put to the test in, in a very real way. You’re gonna have to, you’re gonna see a big bailout coming from the administration ’cause that’s how serious farmers are hurting, particularly loss of foreign markets. China’s not buying any soybeans. It was our biggest export market by far. They’re now moving to Brazil because of the tariff policy of this administration. 

So I, you know, I, I think, and, and we can’t forget, you know, what’s happening on the immigration front. I mean, I don’t think most, most, most producers in this country expected to see ICE agents running through their fields, chasing after people who are just, you know, doing some of the hardest work there is day in and day out. And for many people have been working for, you know, some of these farmers for 20 years. 

So I think some of that support is starting to crack a bit. But, you know, it’s gonna take more pain, I think, to really move that voting block in a different direction. But right now, the policy of this administration fly in the face of what’s best for American agriculture.

 

MARTIN: Talk a little bit more about what you’re concerned about. What are some of the issues around climate and food that keep you, that keep you up at night, frankly?

 

KASS: Yeah. Well, right now, the complete pullback of all climate-related policies in the United States is, is — should alarm us all. And it’s down to like detailed stuff like weather reporting, basic, you know, reporting on what’s happening and what’s changing, you know, for growers from a weather perspective, let alone policies in place to help set our, our system for success. We’ve had a system that’s been built over the last, like, the last 10,000 years, even the last thousand years, have been the most stable climate that scientists can observe in the historical record. We’ve just gotten really lucky. And we’ve had abundant natural resources, namely abundant soil, and an endless supply of fresh water and cheap energy. And we’re now having to grow food in an increasingly volatile climate with dwindling soil and not enough water. 

We just don’t have a system that’s set up to deal with that volatility. (09:07): We have a lot of work to do to start embedding much more diversity into what we’re growing and how we’re growing it to deal with those shocks that we’re gonna, you know, absolutely face increasingly year over year. We just haven’t done that at all. So, not only are we gonna exacerbate the problem dramatically by pulling out of, you know, the Paris Accords, by gutting every climate related policy that this, you know, the United States government has in place, we’re just also not investing in the future of resiliency in our food system. And that should scare us all. I mean, this, this is, this is really foundational to our way of life, to our ability to pass down to the next generation the basic standard of living that, that we have. And that’s under threat. 

I’ll also just say, you know, I’m, you know, worried about all the things that I love to eat every day. But when you start to look at global commodities like rice that three and a half billion people depend on, and, you know, climate change is gonna start having a real negative impact on yields there. Or wheat, these core commodities that basically feed the world, then you’re talking about major food insecurity events globally, major political instability as a result, forced migrations. And so from a national security standpoint, and from a U.S. position around the world, the pressureo ‘s gonna only grow dramatically on our ability to maintain our, our way of life. And, and that’s something that we just have to take serious. It shouldn’t be a partisan issue. This is just our ability to maintain you know the, the America that we know and love. And that’s what we should be focused on across the board.

      

MARTIN: So that’s kind of a high-level kind of grass-tops conversation. Could you bring it down to maybe the grassroots? Is there a way that people might be seeing this in their own lives, even if they’re not sure that that’s what they’re seeing in foods that people like to eat, you know, every day here? Could you kind of make it more, make it more real if people just <crosstalk>

 

KASS: Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, food prices are just steadily going to, are, are, are increasing and will continue to increase. And I think that’s gonna be the first thing that we start to see foods that we’ve taken for granted, like a cup of coffee in the morning — which, you know, for me, I can’t survive without a cup cups, if, if not more every day — are gonna start to, you know, increase in price meaningfully. And so the many of the foods that we love are simply not gonna be available to most people. 

You know, like for example, last, last year you know in Spain, wine producers, Cava producers had to lay off basically all of their workers, the big ones, because they had no grapes to harvest. And you’re seeing, you know, growers in Champagne having to buy land in England ’cause they don’t think they’re gonna be able to, to produce you know, champagne in Champagne. These kind of disruptions are gonna happen all over the, the country and all over the world. So, foods that we’ve taken for granted like salmon in the, on, on the West coast, those fisheries are all closed because there’s just no salmon. 

There’s been heat waves happening in our oceans that are decimating these natural ecosystem. In fact, just a, a yesterday — I think a couple days ago —  a landmark report came out saying, we passed the first global tipping point around coral reefs. 80% of coral reefs have been infected by bleaching. Basically, these reefs are dying. And because of, you know, temperature warming. This is maintains life, you know, and, and food for over a billion people on the planet. 

 

MARTIN: You know, what’s interesting about your book is that you write about your initial reluctance, you know, to work with big companies like Walmart and McDonald’s. But you say that you ultimately found these collaborations fruitful that they, they have business reasons. This is not a nice-to-do, this is a business imperative for some of these companies. 

So it makes me wonder whether there’s a similar opportunity for this so-called Make America Healthy again, or MAHA movement that is, has become very visible and present in the Trump administration and in the Republican Party broadly. I mean, the Health Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. obviously being the sort of the chief spokesman and sort of avatar, you know, of that movement. (22:10): I mean, just, it has to be said for people who perhaps have not followed this as closely, is that many people sort of in traditional, you know, science and public health are deeply concerned about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and this movement more broadly. They find it, you know, anti-intellectual, completely divorced from reality, divorced from scientific fact, rife with misinformation. But having said that, given your experience, do you see any synergy there? Do you see any opportunity I don’t know what else, how else you’d sort of put in any sort of overlap of interest that might be fruitful and productive?

 

KASS: Yeah, I will say, I held out some hope in the beginning. You know, I think his narrative and critique of what’s wrong holds a lot of truth. It’s a critique that we, you know, we’re, you know, laying out when we were in the White House. And one that has been, you know, uttered many times over the last few decades. And I think that gave a lot of people, including a lot of friends of mine who care a lot about these issues, you know, supporting a president, they otherwise wouldn’t because they believe that this, this administration could do a lot on the issue. And, and it was shocking, but encouraging to me to see members of the Republican Party start saying that the health is an issue and we should do something about it, given that they fought us tooth and nail on literally everything we tried to do when we were in the White House.

So that, you know, gave me some hope. I will say, unfortunately those voices that you referenced, I, I I’ve, I’ve come to absolutely agree with. I think RFK is the greatest threat to public health this country’s ever faced. His absolute lack of integrity of,  you know, using, of science and of focusing on the issues that matter. On the food side, I mean, food dyes which has been the main thing they focus on, literally is irrelevant. I mean, I’m not a champion of food dyes. I’m happy to get them out of our food, but Fruit Loops, with or without dyes are still not something we should be feeding our kids. And it just literally has no outcomes in, in, in, in health. The other main thing, seed oils is just a joke. It literally flies in the face of every major scientific review of the issue. (24:48) And he’s promoting fast food, cheeseburgers and french fries, fried in beef tallow, which is just like pure insanity. 

And then you, and that’s sort of like the facade. And really what’s going on is an attempt to undermine our vaccine policy and saying insane statements like, you know, circumcision and Tylenol use is leading to autism. I mean, this is just straight lunacy. And and, and I think we should all be deeply alarmed. 

 

MARTIN: Well, so wheel it around. What, what are you encouraged by? Is there anything that you’re encouraged by when it comes to health, food, and climate?

 

KASS: Oh, absolutely. I mean I think that the exciting thing that gets me outta bed every day with some optimism, even in the, you know, in a, in a, in what I would say is a, is a difficult time in this space is, I think food and agricultural systems are really the only system on planet Earth that can actually solve or mitigate the worst of climate change in the time that the science says we have. 

You know, most, a huge percentage of the carbon that is now in our atmosphere used to be in our soils. And we have, through the right practices and new technologies, the ability to bring a lot of that carbon back into our soils, which improves soil health, improves our yields, and we can start paying growers to farm in a better way and solve this incredibly existential problem we face. 

 

MARTIN: And using farms for carbon capture.

 

KASS: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And I’m working with a number of companies and different technologies that can do just that. And at massive scale, that could really move the needle. We, we get, we get caught up in a lot of, you know, sexy sounding technologies like direct air capture that sucks carbon out of the air, but none of that is scalable in time. It’s way too expensive. You just can’t have a big enough impact. There’s a billion people growing food around the world. If you start to incentivize them and harness them to farm in a way that’s actually pulling that carbon back into the soil, we can totally bend the global emissions curve, grow food in a more sustainable way, make farming more, much more profitable for, for producers who are just always on the edge, especially right now. 

And that’s all possible. We have the tools, they’re, they’re, they’re making so much progress. We just need more cultural support for it, meaning, like eaters have to start supporting it. We need politicians to believe in science and start enacting policies that help push these, these practices in a different direction, you know, in agriculture. But we have a huge opportunity before us to actually use this system that is right now driving the problem to actually solve the problem. And I couldn’t believe that, you know, more firmly. The kind of doomsday scenarios that you hear people saying are totally avoidable if we take decisive action now.

 

MARTIN: So what decisive action should people take? I mean, to — two, two sort of two aspects to this question. First of all, one of the things that you do with the book is make it personal. You know, like, if you like this, if you like coffee as you do, if you like chocolate, as I do, as I think all decent people do <laugh> what, what, what should you do? What should you do? 

 

KASS: Yeah, on the personal front, and I will say that, you know we — no individuals can fix this, right, just by our own decisions, but we have, we do have an important role to play. I think, you know, there’s a few simple things to do. One — I’d say three things, if I had to boil it down most simply. I think from a, from a, like your own footprint standpoint, red meat consumption is the biggest driver of emissions in our food system by a lot. It’s sort of the biggest thing. And I, and I say that as a meat eater. I’m a, you know, I’m a former chef. I love meat. I eat, I still eat it, but I’ve reduced significantly the amount. I think that’s something that all of us can do. Even just cutting it out like once a week than what you normally do would be a meaningful impact if everybody did that.

Two, I think brands that are starting to promote more regenerative or sustainable food products, we should support them. I know there’s plenty of greenwashing out there, but if the big companies see that com, you know, when they market products in that way, that people will buy them, that is a very strong signal that we care about that. Then it’ll be up to the advocates to hold these companies accountable to make sure they’re doing what they say they’re doing. But from a, from a purchase standpoint, that is a really powerful signal that right now, frankly, we’re not sending as a, as a country on whole. 

And third, vote. There’s literally nothing more important than us voting for people who believe in science, who believe in climate change, who care about our kids’ future. And what we hand down to them. I don’t care if it’s Republican.  If it’s a Republican who cares about these things, great. I’m all for it. In fact, frankly, we need more than anything Republicans who stand up for basic science and believe in climate change, which by the way, the party did. Reagan and Bush all totally accepted this science. It’s been a very strange, pretty recent change. We need to restore that. And so whoever your party is voting for people who prioritize this is critical. 

 

MARTIN: Sam Kass, thank you so much for talking to us.

 

KASS: Such a pleasure. Thanks for having me.