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PAULA NEWTON, ANCHOR: Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here’s what’s coming up.
As Russia advances on Ukraine’s Pokrovsk, G7 leaders meet in Canada with this war high on their agenda. So, what’s at stake, and how long can
Ukraine hold out? I get the military analysis, and MSF Secretary General Christopher Lockyear joins us from Ukraine.
Then, “The President’s Cake,” the award-winning film exploring the realities of Saddam Hussein’s rule in 1990s Iraq. I speak with writer and
director Hassan Hadi.
Also, ahead —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCUS CAPONE, FORMER NAVY SEAL, SUBJECT, “IN WAVES AND WAR” AND CO- FOUNDER, VETS: Just think of how many years of therapy that can take to change an individual, where that happens literally overnight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: — on Veterans Day, Hari Srinivasan speaks with former Navy SEAL Marcus Capone and Bonni Cohen, director of “In Waves and War,” a film about
controversial psychedelic therapy that seeks to heal brain injuries.
A very warm welcome to the program, everyone. I’m Paula Newton in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Today in America, we mark Veterans Day, a chance to commemorate those who served in the U.S. military. It coincides with other global holidays
marking the end of World War I, but as we celebrate these triumphs over tyranny, the shadow of war still looms over Europe today.
For more than three years now, Russia has terrorized Ukraine, taking its land, bombarding cities, and even stealing the country’s children. Now,
frontline fighting is focused on Pokrovsk, a key gateway into the eastern Donetsk region. Ukraine’s top commander claims Russia has sent about
150,000 troops to capture that city as their forces dwindle. And yet Kyiv continues to fight back, just last night striking an oil refinery and
several targets in Russian-occupied territory.
Now meantime, G7 foreign ministers are gathering in Canada with Ukraine, and how to stop the fighting high on the agenda. So, the question, how long
can Ukraine hold out? And what if it falls? We speak with a military analyst, Cedric Leighton, who joins us now. Good to see you again as we
continue to follow the saga of Pokrovsk.
You know, Russia claims that the fall of Pokrovsk is imminent. Ukraine denies that. What can you tell us about the situation on the ground? But
what I really want to learn from you is why is it so strategically important?
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, MILITARY ANALYST AND U.S. AIR FORCE (RET).: Yes, Paula, it’s great to be with you again. The main reason that Pokrovsk is so
important is because it’s kind of at this junction of a series of roads. There’s a highway that goes through there that basically links the eastern
part of Ukraine, the Donbas region, with the central part of Ukraine. And that very fact makes it strategically important.
The other angle to this, the other angle to Pokrovsk, is that it is also kind of an anchor for the Ukrainians. Basically, they have a string of
fortifications in the part of the Donbas region that they still control. And if Pokrovsk were to fall, it would put those fortifications at risk as
well. So, there’s a logistical reason and there’s a military operational reason for Pokrovsk to still be, you know, a key area that the Ukrainians
want to hold on to.
Even if Pokrovsk were to fall, and it of course has been decimated by the war over the last few months, by the specific battle there, it would still
be something that would allow the Ukrainians to continue the fight. But they would be in a bit of a weakened position if Pokrovsk were to fall to
the Russians.
NEWTON: And the main issue here for Ukraine does seem to be manpower. I mean, as much as Ukraine says that it has, in fact, that 150,000 troops
right now are amassing in terms of Russian troops, and yet Ukraine is losing manpower as well and is having a hard time standing up manpower. How
crucial is that at this point in this war?
LEIGHTON: Well, it’s always been a crucial factor, Paula. But one of the things that the Ukrainians have been able to do is they’ve been able to
innovate. They’ve been able to use technologies such as drone warfare, coupled with artificial intelligence, to create a type of situation that in
essence is a bit of a stalemate.
Now, there are certain elements of this war that harken back to World War I, where basically you have a stalemated trench warfare, particularly in
the eastern part of the country. But then there are other parts of the war, such as the drone part, that are fairly innovative. And the other thing
that the Ukrainians are doing is they’re using electronic warfare in order to not only keep pace with the Russians, but in some ways to outpace them.
Now, the Russians have responded. They have drone capabilities as well, which are very significant. They also have electronic warfare capabilities,
which they basically inherited from the Soviet Union, but they’ve improved over the years. So, there are certain elements here where even though there
are certain innovations on the Ukrainian side, sometimes those innovations are met by the Russians. And the result of that is that there is basically
a stalemate in each of these areas.
So, the Ukrainians have the capability to hold on to certain territories a lot longer than we thought would be possible, most analysts thought would
be possible. But the other part of it is that manpower part that you spoke of. And that is something that has been plaguing the Ukrainians really
since the start of this phase of the conflict between them and the Russians.
In essence, you’re talking about a four-to-one advantage that the Russians have in terms of population and in terms of the size of their militaries.
But there are local pockets, such as the area around Pokrovsk, where the Russians have massed troops. And that makes it really hard for the
Ukrainians, who are already manpower challenged, to meet that particular effort on the part of the Russians.
So, the Russians, not only are they amassing their troops, but the other factor that they have to contend with is, of course, they’re losing a lot
of them as well. So, Russian losses are much heavier than the Ukrainian losses, but that use of mass that the Russians have instituted is really a
key element in their type of warfare.
NEWTON: Yes, and in some cases, just a complete disregard for the lives of their own soldiers. I mean, I’m sure it is stunning and striking for so
many viewers to hear on this day where we commemorate World War I and the victories there, that you are talking about warfare that looks so much like
World War I.
I do want to ask you, though, when it comes to this imbalance in terms of troops, how long can Ukraine sustain this? Because you and I have spoken
before about the fact that Russia is counting on the fact that maybe even by spring or summer, Ukraine cannot sustain this.
LEIGHTON: Yes, that’s certainly part of the Russian calculus, Paula. And one of the aspects here that the Russians are thinking about is that if
they maintain their alliances with China, for example, and Iran, that they will not only be able to have the massive manpower that is their own, plus
with a little help from North Korea, then you also have the technological aspect where the drones swarm, such as those that are produced with Iranian
help, both in Russia and in Iran. That can help turn the tides. Russians are counting on those types of things.
How long can Ukraine last? It really depends on how much support Ukraine gets from the West. That’s going to be critical in this particular case. If
the West were to institute something like a no-fly zone, that would stop the war basically in its tracks right now. But nobody is talking in those
kinds of terms in capitals — you know, in NATO capitals. But it’s also something where that kind of bold action would be required in order to
change the course of the war, and I don’t see that happening right now.
NEWTON: And, Colonel Leighton, you know, we do have the G7 foreign ministers meeting in Canada right now to try and parse this. What is the
breakthrough there? Because Europe certainly has been speaking about this for months. The United States does not seem to be listening, no matter how
many visits President Zelenskyy has made to the White House.
LEIGHTON: Yes, this is critical. You know, a lot of the European help, both diplomatically and economically, really depends on Europe being able
to ramp up its defense industrial base to support the Ukrainians.
Now, they’ve made considerable efforts in that regard. You have companies like Germany’s Rheinmetall, for example, producing a lot of artillery, a
lot of other weaponry for the Ukrainians, and that has been significant. You have Sweden providing fighters, Gripen fighters, to the Ukrainians, and
that will take a while to get there. But those kinds of actions are going to be crucial for Ukraine to maintain its sovereignty and independence.
So, when you look at all of these different factors, what the Europeans will have to do is, they want to convince the United States because that’s
the quicker path to victory as far as that is concerned.
But failing that, they know that they’re going to have to produce a lot on their own, and that’s why their economies are basically moving more toward
a war footing. You have countries like Poland, who for a long-time kind of foreseen what’s going on here, and they’re, you know, creating a military
force that is necessary to maintain their presence in the east, plus they’re also training civilians for wartime duties. So, that kind of
effort, both in Poland and in the Baltic states, is crucial also not only economically and militarily, but also psychologically.
NEWTON: Yes, and even if it changes the strategy on the ground in Europe, many need that ceasefire even if they continue on a war footing. Colonel
Leighton, grateful to you for really laying out what’s at stake militarily. Appreciate it.
And so, as we were just discussing, the war grinds on. Winter fast approaches and temperatures, of course, continue to plummet, making the
situation for soldiers in the front line and civilians caught in the conflict even more dire.
Medecins Sans Frontieres is one of the organizations helping people on the ground. MSF Secretary General Christopher Locklear is in Dnipro, in eastern
Ukraine, and he joins us now. Really grateful for you to join us at this hour.
I’ll ask you right off the bat, what are you seeing there where you are, especially in terms of how it informs what is going on in the battlefield?
Civilians are clearly caught in the middle every day.
CHRISTOPHER LOCKLEAR, MSF SECRETARY GENERAL: Yes, clearly. Civilians caught in the middle every day. I think what we’re seeing is we’ve seen
over recent weeks a real increase in attacks on energy and electrical infrastructure in particular. And as the winter approaches, this is really
antagonizing and further deepening the humanitarian situation for hundreds of thousands of people on the front line. It’s also complicating the
humanitarian response.
Just the other day, I visited three medical facilities, two hospitals and an ambulance dispatch site, and all three of them were struggling with
energy supply. The ambulance dispatch site team were waiting in the dark, keeping their mobile phones charged to be able to hear about cases that
needed referral. And in the hospitals, they’re extremely worried about power outages during critical moments of supporting patients and even power
surges destroying or ruining medical equipment.
So, it’s at a critical moment now as we head into the winter, especially with this context of depleting power supply and attacks on infrastructure.
NEWTON: And you have the benefit of perspective. How would you characterize the morale of the people there? Because so many have now said
that actually Ukrainians may be going into their harshest winter ever coming up.
LOCKLEAR: Well, I think it’s very tough. I mean, just this morning, I was in a shelter for displaced people, people who’d come from the front line.
There were — on one hand, he was living in a room full of three other families, eight or nine people. And she’d been there for two or three
years. At the same time, a few minutes after that, I met a woman from Pokrovsk who just displaced just a few weeks earlier. Her house, her
apartment had been destroyed, and she displaced with her daughter and her granddaughter. And she was telling me about her issues in terms of being
able to receive medication. She herself was struggling from suffering with hypertension and was really an example of what it is like to get health
care on the front line.
There’s a lot of people who, particularly elderly, who are having to make the really difficult decision to stay and face the daily terror or face the
unknown and fear of fleeing to somewhere they don’t know, somewhere they not belong, after maybe spending generations in the same building, the same
house, tending the same farmlands along what is over 1,000 kilometers of active front line.
NEWTON: And to that point, the Ukrainian government says that as of October 1st, almost 2,500 health care facilities are confirmed damaged or
destroyed, especially when it comes to those vulnerable and those that cannot leave and are left behind. You know, the health care system, what
can it do to continue to withstand these Russian attacks? Because as I understand it, even if they’re not attacked directly, right, we are talking
about this wave upon wave of damage to the energy system.
LOCKLEAR: Yes, exactly. I mean, what I would start by saying is that, you know, the response is really being led by the Ukrainian authorities, the
Ukrainian health care system and Ukrainian civil society organizations, the collective upsurge of response for many, many years now has really been at
the forefront of the humanitarian response.
But yes, it’s infrastructure. Yes, it’s energy. But it’s also personnel. It’s also having enough human resources to be able to try and treat those
patients that are so desperately needing assistance, whether that’s due to the physical trauma that they’ve been facing, the need for rehabilitation
and physiotherapy to be able to try and get their lives back on track, or whether it’s psychosocial support, psychological support.
We estimate that around 20 percent of the population are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. And so, there is a huge amount of trauma
within Ukrainian society as a whole. And that’s partly because of injuries sustained on the front line.
But it’s also the fact that the whole of the country is in range of some of the very, very long ballistic weapons that are being used throughout the
country. And everybody needs to be aware when they go to sleep at night where the nearest bunker is in case there’s an air raid alert. And so, the
whole of — the huge thousands of kilometers — thousands of kilometers from the front line, people are suffering from the threats of aerial
weaponry on a daily basis. And it’s really traumatizing the whole population.
NEWTON: And when you talk about that trauma, it is not lost on any of us that we are going into the fourth year where children, some children born,
should be going into kindergarten, and yet all they’ve known is war. How much more difficult is it for children to really, the longer this last, how
much more of an indelible mark this kind of trauma will leave on their lives?
LOCKLEAR: Well, of course, children are particularly vulnerable in any war, in any conflict situation. And since the full-scale escalation, that’s
particularly so here. But I think what we’re looking at is intergenerational trauma. It’s going to be a generation of people who —
with a significant proportion of people who have physical trauma, have lost limbs. I’ve seen many patients over the last few days who’ve had limbs
amputated. But it’s also going to take generations to get over the psychological trauma of living in this terror for such a long time.
So, even if this war were to stop tomorrow, there’s decades and decades and generations of work to do to rebuild society.
NEWTON: And to get back to your work on the ground there in terms of MSF, how confident are you in terms of being able to continue to bring that help
to them on the ground? Again, when we look at the amount of medical facilities that some say are deliberately targeted by Russia, what are you
dealing with in the coming winter?
LOCKLEAR: Yes. Well, whether targeted or not, we know that hospitals have been hit. Ambulances have been hit. Civilians walking in the streets of
Kherson have been hit. So, it’s a very, very real threat. Our objective really is to try and be in the right place at the right time to be able to
treat people as close to the front lines as possible. That means that we have to be very dynamic. As front lines move, we have to move where we’re
carrying out our work. We are always trying to assess new health facilities where we’d be able to support.
So, that means lots of mobile clinics, ambulance services to be able to try and refer patients to high level medical facilities, but also having areas
in which we can carry out longer-term treatment. So, particularly people who require rehabilitation, physiotherapy, both in the acute phase after a
surgery, but also so that they can sustain that for several weeks and months to come and also sustain mental health support for issues like PTSD,
as we’ve said.
So, it’s a combination. It’s a patchwork of activities, both being able to try and maintain contact with patients, but also trying to be creative to
ensure that we can get health care to as close to the front lines and the most vulnerable populations that we can.
NEWTON: And, Christopher, you were very clear that, of course, Ukrainian civil society itself does lead on the medical aspects of this, but how
worried are you about what that system actually buckling. Especially when I look at the swath of energy infrastructure that has been impacted, that is
hospitals, clinics having to work with generators, if then they can get the fuel. I mean, there’s lots of different things that go into keeping these
medical facilities up and running. How worried are you going into winter?
LOCKLEAR: I think we’re extremely worried going into winter. I mean, we’ve had to close operations in certain locations because of proximity to the
front line and trying to, as much as possible, keep our teams safe. So, we’re worried about that. We’re also worried about what it’s going to mean
in terms of people displacing and fleeing over the next few months as well.
As the energy infrastructure is hit and depleted, it does mean that people’s living conditions, their humanitarian situations, their desperate
need to keep warm increases. And as the front lines move, that also puts them under pressure. And so, we’re going to expect to see people moving
over the next few weeks as the temperatures drop, especially if they don’t have electricity, which is going to further compound the demands on the
health facilities throughout, particularly eastern Ukraine, but also the country as a whole.
NEWTON: Christopher Lockyear, we wish you and your teams on the ground much strength in the weeks and months to come. Christopher Lockyer for us.
Appreciate it.
NEWTON: And now, to Iraq, where today’s parliamentary elections are underway. A staggering 8,000 candidates are competing, but some polls
predict it could be the lowest turnout in the country’s young democratic life after its transition in 2005.
Now, this moment offers us a chance to reflect on the vast changes Iraq has undergone in the last two decades, from the U.S. invasion and the toppling
of Saddam Hussein to the years of war, uncertainty, and eventual rebuilding that followed. Now, a new film takes us back to the time when the notorious
dictator was still in power.
“The President’s Cake” tells the seemingly simple story of Lamia, a schoolgirl who is tasked with making a cake for Saddam’s birthday. The
assignment reveals much more about the difficulties of living and growing up under authoritarian rule, and I am joined now by the writer and director
of “The President’s Cake,” Hassan Hadi. Welcome to the program. Really good to have you.
HASSAN HADI, WRITER-DIRECTOR, “THE PRESIDENT’S CAKE”: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
NEWTON: Now, please forgive me. I will take some creative license here because I would describe this as Iraq’s origin story that’s never been
told. It’s actually your origin story. You grew up in Iraq and you chose to write this and make it your directorial debut. What does this film mean to
you?
HADI: I mean, the film means a lot because it’s based on my childhood memories growing up in Iraq. And as you said, it’s my origins. And the film
is probably shot in the marshes of Iraq, which is — you know, it’s being said that is where the civilization was born. So, like it was in many ways,
it’s like the origin of me, the origin of Iraq identity. And, you know, I think it’s also the origin of what we are now as Iraq in 2025.
NEWTON: The cinematography was so stunning. We were privileged to get a preview of it. It doesn’t release widely until next year. But I actually
found the cinematography so breathtaking at times it was distracting. Now, tell me, you could have shot this in other locations in the Middle East. It
probably would have been easier for you. But you’ve said that Iraq is in the DNA of this film. How so?
HADI: Yes, we actually got like multiple offers like to be fully financed under the condition to shoot the film outside Iraq. But like we decided to
shoot this film in Iraq because I believe stories have DNAs and they have origins and they have a stamp on them. You cannot really fake that. And
this film has such a strong DNA that we couldn’t see this film being shot anywhere except in Iraq.
And also, I wanted to break this stigma about Iraq. I know so many people have very specific idea about what Iraq is and how stable Iraq is. So, for
me, it was very important as a filmmaker to insist that this film is going to be told from Iraq by Iraqi actors and it’s going to tell a very local
story to an international audience.
NEWTON: And specifically, some of those scenes, the shooting on the marshlands was riveting, the scenes of the city so evocative. But I am
wondering, how does this complement what is really a character-driven film?
HADI: I mean, the film — you know, the thing is, it is a story that takes us on a journey from the south of Iraq to the City of Baghdad. So, we
really follow this girl and we really are very much immersed into her perspective as she tries to bring the president’s birthday to celebrate
Saddam Hussein’s birthday.
So, we really go on this journey and that unpacks so much of the Iraqi society at that time, because the film takes place in the ’90s and it’s a
period that has never been depicted on screen, neither locally or even internationally. So, it was a very much like an important part of Iraq’s
history. So, as a filmmaker, I was very much even surprised and shocked when that — when I was trying to tell the story that no one even has, you
know, depicted this period.
And it’s shocking because it’s such an important, we really feel the impact of that period. We had sanctions for 15 years. Many people paid the price
for that sanctions and we still struggle from the after effects or side effects of that sanctions even till now.
NEWTON: Indeed. And I do want to talk about the characters now. Lamia, played by Baneen Ahmad Nayyef, she never acted before. You took quite a
risk. And yet, the film truly rests on one extraordinary day in this little girl’s life and how she reacts to it. I mean, you make really her the
centerpiece of nearly every scene. I want us to look at a clip now from the film where she’s told by her teacher that she will be baking Saddam
Hussein’s birthday cake. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The student who will bring the juice is Nasir Muhammed Ali.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, sir. Thanks, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Finally, the most honored student responsible for the birthday cake is Lamia Ahmed Nayyef.
BANEEN AHMAD NAYYEF, ACTRESS, “THE PRESIDENT’S CAKE” (through translator): Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Congratulations, Lamia. You should be proud. Make us a nice big cake and fill it with extra cream. I’ve been
wanting to eat cake for a long time. And I’m not the only one. Don’t let me down.
NAYYEF (through translator): Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Good girl. Sit down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: And you see the enormity of what she’s being asked all over her face. I mean, look, this was an extraordinary performance, but she’s a
novice young talent. How did you coax this performance out of her?
HADI: I mean, all of our cast was, you know, non-actors, but like with her, she was the last person we actually cast for the film. And it was very
much like a short time before like we started shooting. And I received these 30 seconds clip of her saying her name and, you know, school. And I
was like immediately drawn to put her in the film. But like at the beginning, we actually were faced by the parents, the position to have
their daughter on the screen. And, you know, that’s something we also struggled with when we were trying to make the film. But like, it took us
some explanation and convincing that, you know, later the parents became very supportive of their daughter to be on in the film.
She is a natural talent. I believe that, you know, I was looking for a kid that doesn’t need to act. It’s just how they are. And, you know, working
with non-actors is very different technique than working with actors. You need to make them in a very certain situation that they need to believe
what’s happening is real. And it’s not something that they can — you know, it’s different for them than actors because they don’t have the training,
they don’t have the tools that they can access like actors do. So, for very much for this case, what was happening for a large degree, they were
believing in it too.
NEWTON: Yes. Hassan, in your first directorial debut, you broke all the rules. You’re not supposed to work with animals or children in your first
film. We saw a picture there of Hindi, the pet rooster. How was it like working with it? It was really comical actually to watch.
HADI: I have to say we had four or five roosters on set. We had one star that he would do — we called him Hindi One Taker. I learned how to speak
like, you know, with Hindi. So, it was really nice. But like, you know, that Hindi also represents something in the film, you know, people from
that region really have so many pets. It can be buffalo, dogs, cats, and her pet was a rooster. But rooster also has a cultural meaning, which is
they’re majestical animals. And it’s being said that every time a rooster crows, it’s either because he saw a devil or an angel.
And in the film, every time the rooster crows, there’s some meaning to what’s going to happen or is happening in the scene.
NEWTON: Well, it certainly, as I said, was evocative, but also humorous. There is delightful humor in this film.
HADI: Yes.
NEWTON: The humor that at times really highlights the absurdity of living under this kind of a dictatorship, the sanctions, the crude joke of having
to bake a cake when people couldn’t find eggs or sugar. I mean, how do you want audiences to understand that period of time in Iraq’s history, which
you lived through, right? Apparently, you had to bring, was it fruit or flowers you had to bring to your class?
HADI: Yes, I mean, I was lucky I was picked for my — for flowers, but like that flower is an easy thing. And also, teachers really didn’t so much
give specific attention to it because all they cared about is cake and eating the cake. I didn’t taste the cake until I’m pretty old, to be
honest. And that was the case, it’s like the teachers take the cake to share it with his family.
So, it’s like you live in — dictatorships are like a matter of paradox. You are being asked by your president to bring a cake when the country is –
– when the sugar and flour — or selling sugar and flour is banned in the country. So, this is like — you know, this is the paradox we live — we
used to live in. And at the same time, there’s the sanctions, which, you know, impacted everyone in society and changed the fabric of the society to
a large degree.
NEWTON: In fact, you’ve said that the sanctions were more harmful in some ways in the American invasion. And taking from that, I wonder how you
believe your film resonates with children all over the world, because as we know, and as you pointed out, there are children living under those
sanctions today and living in deplorable conditions.
HADI: I mean, one of the things I want people to think about when they watch this film, that I know in mainstream idea, sanctions is perceived as
a non-harm, non-harmful, a very diplomatic tool. But sanctions can be more terrifying and more harmful than honestly, sometimes bombs.
Sanctions — 13 years of sanctions led to 500,000 deaths in children in Iraq. And what they do, they strip people from their humanity and dignity,
and they change the nature of people. And that’s what happened in Iraq. Iraq was — Iraqi society changed completely because of the sanctions. It’s
a very different situation when parents cannot afford for their children what they want.
For example, it was really difficult for my family sometimes to even afford, you know, basic needs for the school. Pens — pen and pencils were
banned from importing to Iraq because they contained a component that could be used in a weapon. So, that’s why Iraq was banned from importing pens and
pencils. And that’s why I hope that the audience understand the sanctions is not only targeting leaders, it basically targets the ordinary people,
everyday people. And that’s why the film focuses on — it tells the story of everyday Iraqi people, people that usually will read and hear about them
as numbers.
NEWTON: Yes. Hassan Hadi, the film is “The President’s Cake,” and it’s out in theaters in February, and congratulations.
HADI: Thank you very much. Thank you.
NEWTON: Now, since 2001, more than 140,000 American veterans and active- duty soldiers have taken their own lives, that’s according to the organization Stop Soldier Suicide. Many who’ve served abroad return home
traumatized with little support for their mental health. Now, a new documentary “In Waves and War” follows those who sought out an
unconventional alternative in Mexico and hopes of healing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was doing all the things he was told to do, and he was actually getting worse. I got his medical records. I completely changed
my approach. Psychedelic medicines proved to be effective, but both are illegal in the United States. So, Marcus would have to travel to Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: And director Bonni Cohen and former Navy SEAL Marcus Capone joins Hari Sreenivasan in this conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Paula, thanks. Bonni Cohen, Marcus Capone. Thank you both for joining us.
Your recent film that’s now visible on Netflix everywhere is a really fascinating journey. Marcus, I want to start with you. It is a documentary
called “In Waves and War,” and it’s about veterans going to Mexico to try a psychedelic treatment to try to overcome some of the intense PTSD and
traumatic brain injuries. And I guess I just want to start by asking, why did you try this treatment in the first place?
MARCUS CAPONE, FORMER NAVY SEAL, SUBJECT, “IN WAVES AND WAR” AND CO- FOUNDER, VETS: Yes. You know, I think the movie is a lot broader than that. I mean, this is a very human — you know, it’s a human touch, it’s a
human element, and that’s the most important. It follows three Navy SEALs, two individuals I served with for over 20 years, but it really touches the
human side of this issue.
And, you know, as a nation, we fought 20 years of sustained combat. We’ve never seen that in history. It’s unprecedented. And individuals coming home
are really introduced to the current system, and whether that’s military medicine, or VA health care when someone retires or separates, or even
private sector care. And granted, there are many individuals out there that want to help. The problem is the system is a bit old.
And many of these individuals, about 50 percent, including myself, and I was one of them that come back, we have something called treatment-
resistant mental health, meaning that the medicines, the drugs, the antidepressants, the SSRIs, the SNRIs, the traditional talk therapy, it
just doesn’t work for half of the population. And so, what do we do? We need to pour money into research, and we need to have affordable access
here in the U.S. And that’s why we’re going outside the U.S. to places where these treatments are illegal and unregulated.
And for me, seven years of failed antidepressants, talk therapy, brain treatment centers, I had to travel outside the country to seek out the care
that really afforded me where we’re at today.
SREENIVASAN: But, Bonni, what’s fascinating to me is that, as Marcus mentioned, this is such a sort of human story. How did you figure out a way
to just let these people be vulnerable in front of you, on camera, which seems completely opposite to what has been their winning formula in their
lives, which is, I’m not going to talk about what I do?
BONNI COHEN, CO-DIRECTOR, “IN WAVES AND WAR”: I mean, I would argue this is a winning formula. Trying to find heroism in vulnerability is what this
is all about. And this is their next mission, right? And they’re there for each other, and they’re there to get well and find healing, both for
themselves as individuals and also for their families.
Just to be completely frank about it, we would not have seen any of this without Marcus and Amber basically creating an entryway for us to their
community. This is a community that is trained to be low-key, secretive, not public about what they do in their public and private lives. And it
took years of trust with the guidance of Marcus and Amber for us to be able to develop those relationships. And like with any film, if you take time
and care and create those relationships, the vulnerability can emerge. And this is a community that wants to help each other.
SREENIVASAN: Now, Marcus, you served several tours in Afghanistan. You retired from the military back in 2013, right? Tell us a little bit, if you
can, about the combat situations. What caused the PTSD? What caused you to be in a place where you were so heavily medicated that were willing to try
anything that you maybe had reached your wit’s end?
CAPONE: Yes. So, multiple tours, both to Afghanistan and Iraq, 2003 to roughly 2010, back and forth. But I just think the culmination of years of
combat, years of constantly on — you’re on that bullet train, you’re constantly deploying, you’re constantly away 300 days out of the year. Now,
you mix in, which so much research is coming out with traumatic brain injury, what we’ll call mild traumatic brain injury. So, these are injuries
to the brain that are sub-concussive. So, even individuals that are not being knocked out, granted the ones that are being knocked out from
explosions, from hits to the head, et cetera, those are concussive blows. These are called sub-concussive blows. There’s research operator syndrome,
very similar symptoms as PTSD.
And so, I just want to put that out there because the term PTSD is also stigmatized, but really, it’s just the host of symptoms that you have in
depression, anxiety, potentially substance use disorder, to numb those things. So, it’s a culmination of maybe some childhood trauma, finding out
that’s very prevalent. Of course, some wartime trauma, years of deployments, years of burying your friends. Then you leave your family, you
transition into the private sector, and it just doesn’t have the same — that’s how it is.
And to me, it’s just an easy way to explain. It just doesn’t have the same passion and purpose and mission that you had for so long. So, you throw all
that together, and it’s kind of a culmination for disaster. And that’s really what a lot of individuals are going through.
SREENIVASAN: Before we talk a little bit about ibogaine, the Navy SEALs had a spokesman said back in 2024, while initial research shows some
positive results, ibogaine remains a Schedule 1 substance, making its use illegal under U.S. law. The Navy has a zero tolerance for drug abuse, and
SEALs should instead seek care through approved medical channels.
So, if that is the context in which the U.S. government and the Navy sees this, Marcus, I want you to tell us a little bit about what is this drug?
What is it actually doing to the brain or what is it allowing the brain to do on its own?
CAPONE: Sure. So, as a non-medical expert, I don’t have an MD or PhD after my name, but ibogaine has been around for a long time. It is extracted from
a root called Iboga. Iboga is grown in West Africa. There’s tribes have been using it there for many years, as I mentioned earlier, for mental
health and detoxification and other spiritual growth, you know, consciousness enhancement.
Ibogaine is most prevalent in Iboga. They extract the ibogaine out. It’s a single molecule. And ibogaine puts you on about a six-to-eight-hour, very
intense psychedelic experience. Not like your typical — if you call them tryptamines or classic psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin, where
everything’s kind of a little weird. Ibogaine, you’re — it’s an extremely medicalized treatment. So, you’re in a bed. You do a ton of blood work. You
do an EKG. You can’t have anything in your system, as Bonni mentioned. There are contraindications. You’re constantly monitored by nurse and by
doctors.
What it does is it allows you to see different aspects of your life that may be affecting you on your day-to-day from different perspectives. So,
for instance, and this one’s easy, I was judging my family, really difficult. Like I would judge them forever. I would judge Amber. I would
judge the kids. You know, why do you do this? Why do you do that?
Well, during my ibogaine journey, I had a perspective shift of I felt what it was like being judged by my father. And it hurt. And when you’re in the
experience, you actually feel it. Like you actually — you know, DJ talks about, I felt the sweat on my shirt. You’re in the moment. And I felt how
horrible it is to be judged like that. And then I saw myself judging my family. You know what I said? I would never judge them again.
And so, just think of how many years of therapy that can take to change an individual where that happens literally overnight. And that story is
replicated thousands and thousands of times over, but it’s just a good example of what they do.
SREENIVASAN: You know, Bonni, you chose a very interesting kind of vehicle to help the viewer understand what Marcus or the other veterans. Tell us
about how you chose to, how you visualized and designed what is possibly happening in somebody else’s brain and sharing that with an audience at
Netflix.
COHEN: Sure. Well, Marcus talked about it, you know, the perspective shift that happens in the ibogaine, on the medicine, whereas he’s described,
you’re not only going through a life review, but you can actually shape shift into someone else’s point of view and watch the scene from another
angle. That lends itself to an animated visual experience.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPONE: I was able to see these difficult moments from my life from a different angle, and it made me realize that none of this was my fault. The
weight was getting lifted off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: In Marcus’s experience, he described seeing photographs of his life, you know, going by like a deck of cards. I mean, just for us as
visual storytellers, being able to use that imagery and translate that into animation felt like just the way to go because a photorealistic approach
would be kind of crazy. You know, what would you do with that?
Whereas if you can be in a more ethereal animated space and recognize those documentary photographs and elements and storytelling while also having the
perspective shifts visually, we saw that that could sort of create a pseudo experience of being in the ibogaine and what these guys might be seeing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPONE: I’m going to the (INAUDIBLE). We get into this line of work because we feel like it’s who we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: What you really do in the film is point out how crucial and important the family was is around them and the ripple effects of what
happens to this individual and what happens sometimes it destroys families, sometimes it’s just the challenges that they quietly live with.
COHEN: Yes. I mean, we really tried to highlight the families in the film. We — you know, Caden, Marcus and Amber’s son was brave enough to
participate in the film and also show his vulnerability, which in my mind is equally as you point out as valid and interesting and important to
consider as the veterans, the service people, the military coming home. And I just — I think what we really tried to do with the film is show how the
wives Marcus talked about Amber being his rock and his reason for survival. That’s really true.
And we saw that over and over again with the wives who we spoke to when they were dealing with, you know, their husbands who they loved, who they
thought that they recognized come home really acting and seeming like different people and they didn’t quite know what to do. And it’s — you
sort of live in a shame of that and a quiet of that that doesn’t feel like you can talk to people freely and try and get the help that’s needed.
And there’s a particular formula in this country for what that help should look like. And it wasn’t the right help. And these women you see in the
film, you see Amber and then you see Patsy Shipley (ph), DJ’s wife, reach out to Amber to have to seek help for her husband. And they are tenacious.
They go after these remedies and these solutions and they will try anything. And it works for them. And they’re willing to really, you know,
go to the last stop on the train to make sure that their family can come back to health.
So, you want to talk about heroines and heroes in this film, you really need to look at the wives.
SREENIVASAN: There’s a statistic that an admiral in this film mentions that four times as many service members and veterans have died by suicide
than have been killed in combat. And that is just an astounding number. What types of, you know, treatments were they trying? I’m assuming not all
of them had the same outcomes. Not all of them chose to, you know, try this treatment in Mexico.
CAPONE: We’ve lost now over 140,000 veterans, active-duty to — you know, by their own hand, death by suicide. And it’s heart-wrenching to think
about that, that, you know, we fight these wars. We do what we’re supposed to do. We do it for our country. We do it for ourselves.
But then we come home and we fight this other battle and we’re losing so many more individuals to suicide than we did on the battlefield, there’s
just something wrong there. There’s something — you know, I don’t want to call it broken because, again, when you go down to the individual level, no
matter where we’re at, the VA, the medical — the military medical system, private care, everybody wants to help. I just don’t believe we have the
tools right now to do that.
And to go back to your question, I’ve seen everything across the board, but what seems to be the standard treatment of care for folks coming back that
are labeled, you know, having PTSD or symptoms of depression, anxiety, it’s a bag of pills. It’s antidepressants. It’s SSRIs. It’s SNRIs. It’s mood
stabilizers. The problem, if individuals don’t respond to those, they up their dose or they change their medication. And then individuals start
having other symptoms. They may not be able to concentrate.
So, they’re given drugs like Nuvigil and Provigil. These things gave me incredibly terrible migraine headaches. Some people are then prescribed
Adderall for more focus, but now they can’t sleep because they’re on these medications that are keeping them up to help them focus. They’re prescribed
Ambien and other sleep drugs to go to bed.
SREENIVASAN: Marcus, I also want to use this opportunity because I have no idea what veteran is watching what at what time and whether this interview
reaches somebody who is struggling with their mental health. And if there was something that you could say to them, what do you say? What would you
say to try to, I don’t know, give them some hope?
CAPONE: Yes. Well, that’s exactly what I say is they need to have hope. If you’re listening, if you’re watching, you need to have hope. You need to
understand that I’ve been there. DJ’s been there. Maddie’s been there. Literally thousands of individuals, friends that we worked with, we’ve all
been there. And I just want to say that we’re working on it. We’re doing our best to open up affordable access here in the U.S. We shouldn’t be
going overseas for treatment, especially for a country we live in and love and we fought for.
And I just want to say also, there has to be action. You have to want to heal. You know, we can bring you to the water to drink, but we can’t make
you drink it, right? So, you have to — you know, you got to find that fortitude and you got to find that bit to just get up, get out there, call
a friend, check on your friends, check on your kids, check on your spouse, make sure people are doing what they can to heal as a society. We need our
tribe. We need our community. We can’t do this alone.
SREENIVASAN: Marcus Capone and Bonni Cohen, the film is called “In Waves and War,” you can see it on Netflix now. Thank you both so much for joining
us.
COHEN: Thank you.
CAPONE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: And finally, for us, remembering those who’ve lost their lives in combat, today is Veterans Day or Armistice Day for some. From France to
Britain to the U.S., many are taking moments of silence, wearing poppies and laying wreaths to honor members of the armed forces who died serving
their country.
And to mark the bravery of all those soldiers, we take a look back at Christiane’s conversation with actor Tom Hanks at last year’s 80th
anniversary of D-Day in Normandy, France. She started by asking how we felt about Russia’s prolonged war in Ukraine, which of course rages on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HANKS, ACTOR AND FILMMAKER: I never thought there’d be a land war in Europe in my lifetime once again, because it had proven to be so disastrous
for all of humanity the last time somebody tried that. And it’s funny how often it comes out of the ego of one human being. One guy back in the 1930
says, no, I’m going to solve all these problems because I know what works and what does not work.
I think — you know, look, I’m a lay historian and I’m as opinionated as any knot head that you’re ever going to come across. But there was this
thought that America, particularly America, was lazy, was divided, was undisciplined, that couldn’t get its act together, wouldn’t — that would
never band together in order just to do the right thing by choice.
And when I’m here, I think of a bunch of kids. It was a young force that came here. They were somewhere between — if you were 25 years old, they
called you pops or they called you the old man. And they — and they were – – they left absolute all of the comforts of a very comfortable America, safe America on the other side of the ocean. And they put themselves here
for what? Because it was the right thing to do.
And they were not defending the status quo. They were not gaining territory. They were not here for riches. They were not here to conquer
anything. They were really here in order to mend the future, if I can coin a word that has just come out in a book that I read not too long ago.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Can I ask you something? Because one man is doing it again, Vladimir Putin. He hasn’t
been invited. He was you know, 10 years ago, but this time not. Do you think — when you think about it, Americans would do this again? British
would do it again? I mean, we’re in the fight of our lives again.
HANKS: Well, you don’t have to go back very far. I can believe, as early as 1939 and 1940 and big parts of 1941 there was a huge vocal section of
the United States of America that said, no way, Charles Lindbergh led the America first. There were literally Nazi party rallies in Madison Square
Garden, in which Adolf Hitler and George Washington’s, their images were up on stage at the same time.
It wasn’t until, of course, that we were attacked that everybody kind of, like, wised up and realized that something very venal was going on in the
world. You can’t help but wonder, where would we be right now? And I have absolute 100 percent faith in the American people and the concept of what
is right and what is wrong.
And if something as definitive as what happened in Europe back then, I don’t think there’d be any question that it would take time, that it would
not be overnight. It would be thought out and it would be, I think, taking into account all the lessons that were learned of what happens when you
don’t do it right over a long course of time.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, I walked over there, I looked at the beach, it’s Omaha Beach, the cliffs that those boys had to scale. Then they had to
rush, you know, and start to liberate a place they didn’t even know anything about. And as you say, they were so young. You did that film,
“Saving Private Ryan.” I know you’re an actor, but everybody says it’s one of the most realistic depictions of what happened that day.
Can you recall what it was like actually filming that and putting yourselves in their boots for that period of time?
HANKS: Well, of course, you know, part of it is glamorous fun, you know. But at the other time, as soon as the camera started rolling and everything
started happening. There was a tactile quality to the confusion.
There is a moment when, of course, as actors, we’re just pretending. But there comes a moment where the reason we’re there is to capture the truth
as the film rolls, and to be cold, wet, scared, and have it be awfully noisy for an awful long time.
It’s also our job as lay historians, because for good or for bad, that movie is a document that has to accurately reflect the tenor of that day.
And I’d like to think that we did.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
HANKS: And hearing it from a number of people who said, as confusing as that is, well, multiply that by — we did not have the smell of cordite or burning flesh or, you know, blood on the sand, but we did have some version of that, the — how — whatever you can get out of a motion picture. I
think we captured it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: And that’s it for the program. I want to thank you for watching, and goodbye from New York.
END