Speaker Well, let's let's start at the beginning. Can you tell us about how you met Lady?

Speaker I met Lenny. When in Boston, when Aaron Copeland had the premiere of Mice and Men and called us both up and invited us to come to the Ritz Carlton for a fancy dinner and a premiere of the picture and that and when he was there.

Speaker And how was that how you feel about when you first met?

Speaker I had heard of him because he was already quite prominent in the Boston area. He was playing a lot of concerts with the WPA orchestra, playing concertos, and he was quite, very advanced. We were about I think he was about eight. I was 18. He was 20 at that time. And of course, later we met at Harvard College where we were I was freshman. He was a junior. And then our relationship sort of blossomed, you might say, from there.

Speaker Well, let's talk about Harvard, the Harvard days. Who did you study with?

Speaker Well, I don't even know whether Lenny studied. Composition at Hurricane Lenny was very active in everything but music, sort of he was all over the place and dramatics and and we had one class that I remember distinctly together, which was in 16th century counterpoint, and that's Palestrina writing him. And Lenny didn't show up until about Christmas time that he didn't do anything. I was a beautiful little academic. I did my work carefully. And then he showed up at Christmas time, I think, with a piece that he'd written for Anna Socolow, a dance piece, rather gruesome, modern, noisy thing. And he played it for the instructor. And the instructor was a typical Harvard professor. Tilman Merritt was his name. And he said, well, in it, this is not exactly what we're doing in this class.

Speaker And I forget what Lenny did. Lenny took his fist and he wrote Big Pound on the door on the piano. I said, I like it. And I thought it actually outrageous, you know, and he wasn't. But then in retrospect, it seems to me a good sample of his confidence and his conviction about everything you did. You know, he was so sure about it. Yeah.

Speaker And so that's very important, actually, rather than be academically correct that he had a very good Harvard education with a, you know, a lot of literature courses and philosophy and history and so forth, which is quite unusual. Maybe you could talk a little bit about somebody who achieved the stature that Lenny did as a musician, that he actually gave me musical training so late in life. I mean, just could you talk a little bit about that and why how you feel?

Speaker Well, I think the Harvard training in those days was not really adequate for a fully professional musician. Pissin was a wonderful man and it was a fine composition teacher. But you could get away at Harvard without learning much about how many are contemplating like that. But it wasn't very rigorous. I think Lenny achieved most of his education at Curtis, where the instruction was more rigorous. The people there were, I think any Mackell and Vanguard taught him the piano. And Curtis seems to be the place that you seem to have learned most about.

Speaker Music is not unusual to be to have begin serious musical training so late in life for most people of late.

Speaker But you've got you've got to be a musician of many talents. Already knew a lot of theory. You know, he probably knew jazz harmony. And, you know, when, you know, jazz harmony, elementary theory is a bit of a bore.

Speaker So he knew plenty before he even started. And to tell the truth, I always thought he didn't know much about Counterpoint and never did. But so what? Schubert didn't know so much about counterpoint either.

Speaker And Scriabin, a composer, didn't. So how did you learn?

Speaker Well, he. I don't know whether he played a jazz band the way I did, I was an arranger for jazz and I don't know whether he did much of that. He just knew it. And he probably played pop songs and things like that and learned from that.

Speaker How did how do you think is how do people feel about living at Harvard?

Speaker I mean, the faculty there and you give an example of, first of all, of Lennie's how he just demonstrated his talents there.

Speaker Well, one of the things one of the things that Lenny did was a company, the Harvard Film Society, which put an old fashioned silent pictures. And they got they rummaged around the undergraduates to find people who could improvise and play music for them on the piano to it was like old time Nickelodeon theater. And Lenny had the job one year and he used to play up a storm behind pictures like Potemkin. And a lot of I can't remember all the sounds there, but he was great. And I and he brought in Russian folk songs and Petrushka and it was amazing to hear him go. I had the job the next year. I don't think I did as well, but he was good at that. So he also was very interested in dramatics and was jumping ahead of it. The way he got into conducting really was from the Harvard Dramatic Club, where he had written the music to Aristophanes The Byrds productions, and invited Copeland to come to the first performance, which was inside the theater Cambridge and Copan watched him conduct. And said he's got real talent for conducting the spotlight right away, and he never conducted before, really, except for putting on Gilbert and Sullivan operettas at the acharn, and that really started conducting career.

Speaker And by that time, it was 1940 or so 1941. I think Tanglewood opened at 40 or 41, whatever, whatever. And Lenny enrolled in the conducting class.

Speaker And then the whole thing began there before he went to stay with Harvard for the state of Harvard.

Speaker I didn't see it. I didn't see him too much at all. But he was very active. And in playing piano, as I say, I don't know.

Speaker He gave to me recitals, but he was a. He was active in what you would call a non non curricular way, and I don't know too much about it. I didn't live there. He lived there.

Speaker You don't have a sense of how the students and teachers felt about it.

Speaker I mean, certainly with I think the teachers didn't notice him too much. He was obviously very sort of gifted guy. But they had other gifted undergraduates. He didn't he didn't stick out to much yet except as a pianist. He was excellent. He was a superior pianist already.

Speaker Let's talk a little bit about your very serious talk about this as a pianist. That's right.

Speaker Pianist with me, I was hoping I wouldn't say great in the sense of having tremendous technical capacity like Horowitz or something like that. He was he was good and he had plenty of technique, but he wasn't he never was a pianist who could play the most difficult things, you know, but he was a very good pianist and he was very tasteful pianist. And he was accurate and he was steady and he didn't make mistakes. And so he was a good pianist. But I say I don't think he ever had pretensions of being a Soviet virtuoso type.

Speaker So he was just short of that.

Speaker But the fact is, I don't think you have a practice of not those days you practice when I think when you played with the orchestra, you probably had to practice the Ravel Concerto in Mozart when he played them.

Speaker A little more of your interview.

Speaker So you just say and then I read you said that it was pretty clear early on, even at Harvard, that he was a guy who was going places. I mean, is that an accurate statement?

Speaker I had the feeling yes, he was as I say, he was he was well known around the Boston area for playing with the orchestra orchestra and going places. We didn't know what going places, what he was going places as a conductor.

Speaker And he wasn't a conductor yet, but he was a musician. That was definitely a prominent one.

Speaker Do you know anything I mean, you may read this, but could you talk do you know anything about Lenny's meeting Metropolis for the first time that that was?

Speaker Well, when Lenny got out of Harvard, I think he went to New York and he you probably know the history better than I do. I met him while he was at Apple and how it might have come to conduct the Boston Symphony. I didn't I know only second hand information about Metropolis and Lenny's relationship, but I know that Lenny went to New York and Metropolis was very kind to him and and did a lot for him.

Speaker And he was crazy about Metropolis, who was a magnificent intellect among the conductors. And. He gave Lenny all kinds of opportunities, I think, to make him a guest conductor and an assistant conductor in residence, that kind of thing. I arranged a job for him, so I recommended him.

Speaker He recommended me to write.

Speaker To rein it right? Yeah, but I wasn't I knew anyone I didn't see very often in those days when he moved to New York, I didn't see him so often because I had I was not in New York.

Speaker Where did you see the you you may not have a lot of stories about it, but you you are the person I would love to talk about.

Speaker Lenny staging of Cradle Rock at Harvard, the DeSoto poster.

Speaker I saw the production of Incredible Rock. And I remember we were singing the have you been to Honolulu? We were all seeing that together. I don't know too much about what went on in it, but he single handedly put it on just about and it was done without seeing, as I remember, and the soundstage of Santos Theatre.

Speaker And it was a fairly daring thing to do because it was definitely a leftist kind of play. And I was not very congenial to the to the left at that point. It produced. I guess a tremendous effect because it was reviewed, wasn't it, and got reviewed? I don't think much of it at the time because I was too arrogant. I thought I thought it was rather dull musically.

Speaker The Blitz didn't interest me much, but it was a big hit. And he showed his his gift for stage singing and coordinating a big production all by himself, doing all the music and the cinema. That was quite an achievement.

Speaker But side came.

Speaker I think so. Yes, I think so. Yes, I think so. But you didn't you didn't know any more.

Speaker You didn't know I met I met them all, but I just shook hands, you know.

Speaker Take away an important part of your relationship with life at Tanglewood.

Speaker We found that we were all in a room together with five roommates at the same time, and Lenny was one of them. And it was quite a room full of musicians because they all went on to be rather eminent people. Arthur Winograd was a cellist who became the conductor of a half a symphony and other things. And Rafael Helliar was able to subdue that quartet. Henry Portnoy became the premiere bassist first basis of the Boston Symphony, I believe. And there was a marvelous clarinet player named Nat Brushoff, whom Lenny and it's unmercifully. But to hear him warm up on the clarinet the morning was one of the great thrills of the world and such a beautiful tone. Why did you do. Excuse me. Why did you do? Well, he was a little bit thick and so he he couldn't play in time if he had to play The Star-Spangled Banner. He did that type bar. And so he was no good because he couldn't count. But his tone quality was magnificent. So I don't know what happened to me. And so we tease that we just got and we used to tease him.

Speaker What was it like, five people in the room?

Speaker Noisy, noisy, unbelievably noisy. Lenny was preparing for his first conducting experience at Tanglewood, which was to do Shahrizat Sheherezade with a student orchestra. And he was yelling and screaming as he sat. I was trying to compose and the other guys were playing their instruments and fighting for who got into the shower. It was tremendously noisy. And when Lenny finally did his his great Sheherazade, we all sat there and made fun of him and tease him to death afterwards, because even then, his famous flamboyance on the stage was in evidence because that's a Hersi. When the cymbals crashed, Lenny went like that. He acted out the cymbal crash on the stage and afterwards you can't act out every instrument.

Speaker You've got to come back. You got to go bang bang on the drum because you can't go like that.

Speaker Lenny was doing all those things you say and and he didn't know he was doing it then either. So it was very funny. And then but it was it was a very electric performance, I must say. It was it was amazing, you know, before his first for a debut student thing was very vibrant and peppy and it was good.

Speaker So was it clear at Tanglewood and even a conducting student that he was by that time he was Koussevitzky baby?

Speaker He was he was in. He was it. He was Koussevitzky, he's already Koussevitzky successor.

Speaker He was all set, you were to be fair, because obviously I know well, Koussevitzky is a complicated case and we go Koussevitzky was a magnificent person in the sense of his vision. His vision for American music was a magnificent vision, that it was very important. And he cared about a man who genuinely cared about new music and American music, and he cared about the culture of America.

Speaker As a conductor. He had electricity, plenty of it, sometimes too much a conductor.

Speaker Who it was an old man, really, and so he never could quite get used to modern rhythms and he couldn't handle them, he couldn't handle asymmetric rhythm. I don't want to go on about his deficiencies because most of it was positive when I met him once after the conducting season was over and he could relax and not be as great martinet, important, important person. He was wonderful. He was so gracious and charming, you know, and elegant. He no conductor could get away with the technical deficiencies he had now, and every young conductor has got those things covid, but they lack the vision that he had. So there are smaller people in Koussevitzky because he was a big person, a little bit deficient in technique. I thought that's not for me to say I'm not a conductor.

Speaker Could you just set up for me? I, I try not to give a lot of narration in my film, so I, I need you to tell, tell certain stories for me so we can just say what Tanglewood was.

Speaker I mean sound like it's important, but you know what, it was an experiment.

Speaker And he said, you know what it was trying to do and how Lenny was among the first of the six conducting students chosen to, you know, study because basically they're just going to discover what it was, what Tanglewood was, etc..

Speaker It's 1940, 41, 40, 41, I think so. Just not early.

Speaker It was the early years of Tanglewood, if not the earliest year of Tanglewood, that the conducting class was formed, which had Lenni in it and had that class, had other conductors who also went on to significant careers. I was taught Johnson, who became a conductor of the Cincinnati Symphony, and Richard Bales', who became conductor with the National Symphony. And I can't remember all the names, but it was quite a class.

Speaker And but Lenny was the most exciting of them and. Was favoured by Koussevitzky. Would have pretty exciting in the initial year we had Chi had a composition class, which also had a bunch of eminent composers who became prominent, people like Lukas Foss and no Mandela Joia, among others. And we all started with Hindemith. So it's pretty, pretty sophisticated atmosphere and very highly charged because there's was a lot of talent on the ground. And Lenny was probably the most charged of all people.

Speaker I think Lenny is a kind of it's not electric presence, but when Lenny came into the room, things picked up. You know, there was there was there was a and enlivening presence, I would say said.

Speaker Temperament. Tremendous. He was very intense and he was excited. Music. Actually was something which excited leaning no end, I mean, Lenny. And I remember this as when we all were exploring the great works of the tunnel where kids 18, 19 years old and all the great works are new to you, and they were amazing to see. Imagine first time here in the Ninth Symphony as pretty exciting if you're a sensitive musician. And Lenny would respond especially to every beautiful place with great ecstasy. Now, I remember one day he discovered Sabeti seven Symphony. He came screaming into the room. I just heard his Seventh Symphony. It's got a theme, man.

Speaker You know, I won't try to sing it, but I figured out I'm pretty sure I did.

Speaker I am pretty poor area when it goes up to that seventh. Lenny thought that was the end because it's a little jazzy at that point. So I discovered a theme in space and then the next day there'll be another enthusiasm, you know. So it was exciting that way. Discovering the classic, discovering all the stuff, all the new things.

Speaker Because of experience, Koussevitzky ASMs, of course, which is why there were so many of them, I don't know whether you have any Koussevitzky hasn't happened with Leny about LENNEAR. I don't remember any about Leny, but his most famous one was one of the conducting students in then class was Richard Bales', and I mentioned it came became a conductor of the National Symphony and Beyer's wasn't very steady in tempo. And so Koussevitzky in Russian the imperatives is like the past tense. So Koussevitzky hollowed Bales took at that tempo and kept it.

Speaker They both passed. So that was hilarious. And. Then there were the days he got started screaming.

Speaker To the concert master, the master seaman, Richard Bragin, bring me the all time, the all time, bring me the alcohol the all time. So the Altun there's no alcohol in this piece. The alcohol is in Strauss's Symphonia, the Alpine Symphony. I think there's a mountain. And nobody when was talking about well, maybe it's on the nose and he was trying to get alcohol. So bring me the all time. Because of this, he was funny. One day he passed by when we were in a group sitting on a lawn reading books, and I was reading a book, something like maybe Schopenhauer, something that I was I was reading some book anyway. And because because of his, we passed by. But he had to be part of a group. So he said when I was young, I also read Schopenhauer, the Russian, the ages of Russia, up and down. And then he walked away and said, one hiden. It made no sense whatsoever on and he was gone. I I wasn't prepared with Koussevitzky isms, so why do you think that is just to in the way he did?

Speaker Well.

Speaker Obviously very gifted with great koussevitzky love to whip things up and get things exciting, and when you have that capacity, tremendous capacity to get music excited, you know, and.

Speaker It's hard to believe how much talent he exhibit at that point, it was tremendous, he was tremendous scoring already. I mean, infinitely better than Koussevitzky as a score reader. Koussevitzky was not a good score here. And Lenny was paramount as Lenny was number one. I was number two, but Lenny was better. Lenny, get the whole apartment. Anyway, they found the fingers, but he could even at that early age, was a tremendous player on the piano scores.

Speaker And. Enthusiasm, you know, I was excited, you know.

Speaker And that's excellent, is it? Um, it's something I read that really surprised me because I think there's such a flamboyant conductor that I read that he somehow had the impression that you were supposed to have a lot of movement. So I used to practice in front of the mirror to kind of control his hands and his girlfriend.

Speaker If this true.

Speaker Of you all practicing in front of a mirror describing. Well, I don't I don't remember he practiced it when we were all all the five roommates at Tanglewood, I don't remember any pranks in the mirror. He would whip up and down with a stick. Yes, but I'm sure he did practice in America. Koussevitzky was very, very big on how you looked at that in the story.

Speaker But later in later years, we composers' decided we would try to conduct it. And so because of it, he said he would take Peterman and myself into the conducting class because it's important composers should be able to contact me so we could learn from them. Maybe something about their pieces. And then I got in there and I saw it. I didn't know how to beat three. And so I started to wave my hand because he said, you can't conduct your fingers are like hot dogs.

Speaker And so how you looked was terribly important because now what he did to Lenny about that, I don't know, Lenny, look good. As you say, flamboyant was putting it mildly. He acted out the instruments, as I explained before. But but he looked OK. He left the ground occasionally, you know, jumping up in the air to even as a young young conductor. When they call that leaving, leaving the ground, they've got plenty to eat and sleep.

Speaker I don't know what he meant. It wasn't it was noticed. It was it was because the conductor didn't do that.

Speaker With the atmosphere of Tiger Woods, I mean, you mentioned it's highly charged with incredibly high level of talent, was a competitive somewhat, but I knew people were not mean to each other, that we didn't we didn't go knocking out the names of fellow figure skaters.

Speaker You know, Nancy Kerrigan Steria didn't do that. Nobody murdered anybody. But it was a good kind of competition.

Speaker You at the end of the season, you sort of knew who you were.

Speaker And the focus was, I'm telling you things that that I know that you know.

Speaker Are you trying to give you the thing?

Speaker Want to talk about the atmosphere was. Yeah, I you know, as you said, like summer school. And yet it was totally focused on music. Yeah.

Speaker Yes. Well, summer school is a rather tame experience generally, but this was a music school, first of all. And music makes noise and there was noise everywhere. It's nothing but a bunch of anxious in. And I remember there were hundreds of instrumentalists on the grounds and they're all playing their instruments and they were good to him. And many of these people from the initial ear became prominent members of American orchestras, Freshdesk players all over the place they were to of trumpeters, violinist, clarinet.

Speaker I didn't really like it. It was kind of warm down. I got tired very quickly, but Lenny thrived in it. To rehearse an orchestra, you have to have a certain kind of stamina. You can't get tired when you hear the same passage of music over and over again as you go over it, it can't get bored with it. I can't, can't, can't wear you out. I'm amazed at conductor's stamina to be able to rehearse over and over again the same figure. And then he had that capacity. He didn't get tired of it.

Speaker I do this when I'm you a question after I think of you, I read something that you talked about that Lenny had almost a holy sense, a sense of service to share his gift with the world.

Speaker Can you talk about that and use those words? I'm quoting according to some parts?

Speaker Well, when we were quite young, I probably I was about 18 and he was 20. We playing baseball in the backyard one day, we actually live a couple of houses away from each other at that point and I said, let's play catch. And we were throwing the baseball around and then I got tired of that. So we decided to discuss our ambitions and what we want to do in the world. And then he said, I want everybody in the whole world to love me, which is innocently put.

Speaker But it's amazing how close he got to his ambition then and matters a more serious matter. I remember.

Speaker That we were listening to records in those days to listen to records was a major achievement because they were long plays and they were not they were short plays and they weren't long played a huge quantity of records. We were listening to the famous Beethoven string quartets. The the we're the one that is mentioned in Aldous Huxley book, Point Counterpoint. And it's the end of a chapter where the hero of Point Counterpoint says, listen to this music and don't now tell me you don't believe or something like that. In other words, to listen to this music was to acquire faith. So Lenny was very interested in doing it. So he read that book in and got out the records and he said, come on, let's listen to this. So we were listening to the late Beethoven quartet and Lenny and we were listening. We thought it was kind of boring, actually, because we would have the attention span for it.

Speaker And so Lenny was but Lenny was interested in matters of faith and religion and. My view of it then was, if God exists, it's a rather important question to figure out, you know, it's a rather major subject matter. So I think Lenny's interests are similar. He always talked about faith. He wrote the mass, which is not a religious mass, but it it has to do with the Qur'an, with faith. And I think that was a lifelong preoccupation of him, even though he made light of it and sometimes mocked the you know, that he didn't really care about it, but he was concerned with it. So it started early on in college or earlier than that.

Speaker Would you say that money was used for men and the sense that I was just speaking?

Speaker Yes. I don't know how much temple going he did. But. He spoke about creative process once as being an atavistic memory. But there's more to it than that, and I think you know it.

Speaker Yes, he was a spiritual man and in a sense, that artist, a spiritual man.

Speaker And I don't I think I mentioned it earlier that I I don't know much about his later life, he didn't talk well, quite well.

Speaker Yes.

Speaker Can you talk about Lenny's relationship to Copeland or Alan Holcomb was a very important one, probably the most important one of his life, even more important than his relationship with Koussevitzky.

Speaker I would say, first of all, Lenny clearly owes Copeland a musical debt. There's a corporate influence in most of his pieces, it's apparent. Copeland was adored by all of us. We are used to joking, we always call them joking with Dean when we went out together. What is the Dean thing about this was the dean of American music. He couldn't have been kinder to the young composers. And and Lenny Aron found someone. With whom he could identify and with whom we had a great affinities.

Speaker And Lenny was very impressed, more than impressed, he was willing to use the slang, he was slain by the Copland piano variations. And I think I was there the first time that Lenny heard it. In the first time I hear it in the crowded room of the music building, I think was the library room. Then I forgot who was playing, but some pianist was playing it and banging it so loudly that I found it actually deafening. But it was made a sensational impression on many as a magnificent piece, of course. And Lenny then learned how to play it and played it with tremendous style. And Aaron could not have been unimpressed with that performance.

Speaker Had a couple and feel about Lenny's composition composition's.

Speaker Aaron was a magnificent critic, and he was always, almost always right on the ball and his earliest pieces were included. I think a clarinet sonata. And Aaron said. It sounds like him to me, and then he said they would fight about it and of course, Aaron is dead right there, the first moment of clarity and it was very Hindemith, you must take it for him. I think the by the time the last one comes around, beginning to sound like jazz and razzmatazz and sound like Lenny a bit, but it's not a particular characteristic piece of Bernstein. So it's very often performed and it's excellently made and you can play it. But Aaron said it's not original and Aaron had a great defect. He was so original himself that he couldn't understand how anybody could be of not.

Speaker So Richard Harris thought and Lenny and the others say it was not so original. No. In later years. Aaron had almost all of Lenny's new pieces, and some of us would complain about them and say they were too jazzy and so forth, but Aaron would always defend him.

Speaker And I think he like most of them, their relationship is a lifelong long. Yes, it was, yes. And you say that that their relationship was a life long relationship.

Speaker It was it was life changing and life long and.

Speaker People make a great deal of the emotional side of that relationship with an intellectual relationship really was not given to hearts and flowers, and Copeland was a solid rock of American music with a fine intellect and a distinguished style distinguished person. And. He raised the level of the young just by his presence. I'm sure it had a great effect on many of the stature of the man.

Speaker Lenny always said that he learned more about composition from Copeland in three sessions near the piano than he did any composition.

Speaker Yes, because it was very it was similar to what he wanted to do. Lenny was first and foremost an American composer. He was very interested in American music and having a music that was American in character.

Speaker I recently heard the rerecording of Fancy Free, which I had heard early on when when it was brand new. And I never liked it when I was new, I thought it was for me it was too jazzy and too obvious. And hearing the rerecording at this date, I was struck with how how how lively it was and how peppy it was. And compared to so much stuff that's around now, the jazz in it, I still find a little bit corny, but the strength of the piece is in its connective tissue. It's amazing how well it holds up, I think. And now it seems like an American monument. So it's kind of enduring kind of quality, which I didn't expect it to have personally. Which is a good sign for any music.

Speaker Well, now the broadcast that year about this issue played in jazz bands is obviously important in his music is important music.

Speaker Can you talk about how you kind of see jazz through albums? Compositions? Through what? Throughout his compositions.

Speaker I'm trying to think of any peace by learning which doesn't have a jazz influence, perhaps the Jeremiah Symphony has less jazz than others, but almost every piece uses jazz as part of its melodic musical, normalizing its general melodic structure as and this is important because it gives a cultural icon which is recognizable by the audience.

Speaker And when he knew that. He wasn't doing it consciously, perhaps, but he knew he was very anxious to commute, to communicate directly. Lenny was very unacademic. He wasn't terribly interested in writing films and and very, very uninterested in the 12 tone system when he was on. He wanted a direct emotional and cultural communication with the audience. Some people hold that as a great thought. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't, but it is better than sterility, far better than sterility and of no piece of mind. Could you say that was sterile?

Speaker Why do you think people come fault?

Speaker Because there's a hint. If we take a massive like Stravinsky, there's a hint of a higher world. Artistically, I don't want to elaborate too much because I don't want to denigrate Lenny in any way. And whether he reached the levels that the greatest art can reach is questionable. However, how how many people do reach this levels, not so many. So I always used to tease Lenny, I say not not very many people have that tune is embedded in the world's consciousness the way you do, you know, so that's quite an achievement.

Speaker I don't think anybody anybody can say that I that I was rather surprised that the way offensive responded, I remember as being sort of tawdry and sort of cheap and jazzy and flashy and and consistent, but it sounds very good.

Speaker And the replay, I think, is a very good composer. But I mean, I don't think anything of putting note in the rank of code, including Lenny, which I think disappointed him.

Speaker I think he at the end was very, very rapidly Justicia sounds pretty good. And and Humphrey wrote in his biography, thought that Lenny was a great composer and Copland.

Speaker Strangely enough, which most people don't think, but greater and lesser greater. And I said, you know, who makes these categories? History makes this category. And and I'm not interested in you.

Speaker And there's really a lot of revisionism in this. Yeah, I'm very interested in people talking about music. But, you know, the audience will draw their own conclusions. This is not a statement that they're portrayed in the music, a part of it. But I am so interested in I mean, life goal seems to be, if you look at it in the totality of it, was to try to say to try to diffuse art, music, so to speak, with music of people and expand the awareness of music in the experience of music to wider and wider audience. This seems to me to be a wonderful contribution, and it seems to have put him not entirely consistent with the kind of academic.

Speaker Well, then his interest in attracting wide audiences and and let's say immediate understanding from the audience is scoffed at by some academics.

Speaker However. I think that is important, says an American phenomenon.

Speaker I think at his funeral when truck drivers on the Brooklyn Bridge. Well, when not truck drivers, but workers on the Brooklyn Bridge, I think yelled down a truck, drivers yelled down Gabbiadini.

Speaker It's an amazing event, you know.

Speaker Construction workers then, did you say again, they used to say say when at Lenny's funeral, when construction workers yelled down Gabbiadini as he passed, as the funeral procession passed, it was an American phenomenon. I know other American composer could probably say that happened, so his identification with the people in the public was genuine and it was affected, actually worked.

Speaker However, you have to remember that many great composers use popular materials they don't think of Beethoven pop up to, but he did it in Russian Russian tunes and Viennese waltz and metamorphosing them into sublime pieces.

Speaker But there's still a material was drawn from popular sources. So. I wouldn't fault any at all on that.

Speaker The thing is, he was not a composer who never took a chance, particularly on something he was terribly interested in an innovative way that was going to antagonize the public.

Speaker What about this? Which one? Mass mass.

Speaker The mass. The mass. The mass, I think is a public success. I heard the mass of Tangled Leonie's on his birthday seventieth birthday party, and it was a tremendous one, tremendously exciting performance by the University of Indiana. And it works very well as a public piece. It's a little bit long and sort of stretched out. But still, it's not not boring at all. And people pay attention. They get excited about it. I sometimes think it was Leno's excuse to write an orgy scene, which is very exciting part, but has a lot of catchy tunes and.

Speaker Where was this taking place is a strange place.

Speaker It's a very strange place, and I'm surprised that the church took it up. I thought the church would be grossly offended in calling something a mass that was in that shape. But instead, they is concerned with faith after all. So it's got a very serious subject matter. And it and he achieved it by using musical comedy iconography. You might say the standard figure was that Officer Krupke, you know, was one of my least favorite figures that Lenny invented. But it's a musical comedy kind of. But there are a service of a of something that is broader and bigger, which the church would recognize had recognized. But the question the question about issues, they they made a very consistent line in Lenny's compositional efforts.

Speaker Would you say that? Yes, I mentioned earlier on about that the in the mess. I'm trying to read Lenny's mind in the mess. The message is that the priest can't cope with the population. And I translate this to Lennie's feeling as a conductor that he couldn't handle.

Speaker All he couldn't have with justice, all the composition that was being done as a conductor, he felt paralyzed. He couldn't play all the pieces that required that he thought should be played and something of that sort. I think it's an autobiographical statement in that way. He Lenny, the conductor is the priest who can't cope with the congregation and the congregation is the music. Well, he can't cope with it. Many of that point is to say, well, I'll go to him. He's a very good conductor. Speaking of someone else, you know, in other words, he can't handle the heat. They can handle it. There are other good conductors, not just me. It's not quite true, though, with Lenny when Lenny played a piece of yours.

Speaker You had a wonderful feeling that he understood what was going on, and as a composer, you stand up and say, I want the clarinets to be at that moment when he was adjusting the clarinet. Now, he anticipated everything that you want to change and you could just sit there and let him take care of everything, which is something you can't say most conductors. So in that sense, I miss Lenny terribly. You know, I don't feel as a single conductor, I could take a piece to who I understand it the way anyone else.

Speaker Do you see other autobiographical elements in this competition with examples? I have you know, I've never I have an interpretation of the message. Well, it's a possible interpretation.

Speaker It's very interesting. I haven't had a quiet place. I haven't heard the opera. I never heard I don't know much about the opera. And so I don't know about the later pieces. The mass goes off all of the mass. And so I don't know them. And certainly some of the pieces I can't help you.

Speaker The earlier terms of I mean, clearly, Garum, I was always interested in divorce and family troubles and and the trouble and tragedy, that kind of thing.

Speaker You were there for the to trouble.

Speaker Yes. It was a very nice creative arts festival. Well, it was a smash hit.

Speaker And I remember sitting behind some Brandeis trustees and I said sort of slightly ironically, ironically, it was terrific. And they said, wow, it certainly was. You know, the smash value of Lenny's pieces is very great. Copland always said no matter what he does, it's got that electric appeal to the audience and it always works and always excites them.

Speaker And of course, again, speaking of academia, that's what academia generally frowns on. Academia can I've heard academicians call letters, music, trash and garbage and things like that.

Speaker Well, why don't we actually just talk about that? He's composing at a time and I'm saying things like you say back to me, when there was this big divide between tonality and 12 tone serialism, so to speak, in the academic quarters together. Yeah, tonality was out. And let me continue with can you just talk about the whole thing?

Speaker The whole concerning battle between tonality and serialism was really exemplified in the two great composers, the 20th century, two of the greatest ones that Stravinsky and Chamber, of course, and there were Stravinsky. And they were Schoenberg guys. And they always fought with each other. And as I was a Stravinsky guy. And so I thought with the Trafton guys and Lenny probably had little sympathy for the Trafton as because they didn't have tunes. Lenny was Lenny was good at making up good tunes. And one of the arguments were, was that serialism rect inspiration's you can be inspired.

Speaker Of course it isn't true because Schoenberg and his fourth quartet has magnificent unison pass in unison passage where it's a 12 tone row. But it's it's a crooked tune, but it's a very catchy one and it's definitely inspired. So you can't say that about it. However, the battle raged in those days and was finally strangely won by The Serialist and especially in the academy. And and then when Stravinsky and his late pieces started using different techniques and serial techniques, it made almost a total victory for a, let's put it this way, a serial type of operation. And then it turned out the serial operations didn't have to be 12 tone. You see, it's a different way of of creating the music, but by using series instead of generated by harmonic basis, Leonie's was caught up in that battle.

Speaker And he wrote a number of pieces that were you see a pattern?

Speaker I think that I don't remember the concerto. He wrote a concerto for X, which I've never heard, and a number of pieces in that period. And there may be very that I just don't know them.

Speaker In the quiet in his final opera, I think, Lenny. Is reports of your serial patterns for the people, for the villains of the piece and diet and tonal patterns for their for the hero, heroic people in the piece. I don't know why that was that. Be an interesting way to put it. The battle is of no interest now. And the all music academy of the of the entire United States is still dominated by Germanic post-process.

Speaker Inbred kind of great concern. It's amazing. In the 19th century was dominated by totally by Germanic concerns, Brahms and and other other.

Speaker Types of romantic music and the same thing happening now. Now, Lenny, being an American composer. Couldn't be part of that scene completely. The lady was concerned, he was concerned with what kind of academia thought of him, and it was worrisome.

Speaker They sometimes would eat humble pie in front of the academics and it's election when it comes to see his old pals around the university. He not eating this humble pie, which we know was not going to last long.

Speaker But, you know, what are you doing? You know, and I but he really was interested in it. I think he felt his technique was maybe not. As adequate as it could have been compared to some.

Speaker It was adequate to what he wanted to do when he was flying in the face of what it was that had become the prevailing flow, and he stated that if you could talk about your lectures, this is I only went to one of those subjects.

Speaker I only went to one of those not lectures. And that's the only one I remember. And I haven't read them.

Speaker And it's one in which Lenny makes a rather serious error in describing the pentatonic scale, which is too technical to go on or on about it. But the lectures were preceded, were followed by concerts, and they were a great success, I think.

Speaker And the whole connection of music with the Chomsky Chomsky post Chomsky in linguistics is a difficult one. I'm not sure I even agree with it at all, but it was attempting, I think, for many to get concerned about. You want to find out since you'd find out that linguistics indicated universal aspects of language. The big thing is to find out what are the universal aspects to musical language? Well, they're not the same, I don't think, as the the universal aspect of the word language. I think music is a whole separate creation. In the words of Alfred North Whitehead, music and mathematics are man's most original creations, and everybody messes with music because it's tempting and it's attractive. Every physicist is messing with music because you can quantify it and it's a fun thing to do, but I wish they'd get their hands off it sometimes. I think Lenny might have felt that letter, essentially. There's nothing there's nothing so easily understood about music. Music is very easily understood by very musical people who have musical minds in the sense that Robert Schumann, Robert Schumann said perhaps that genius is the only one who can understand other genius. The claims of James.

Speaker I say, yes, I mean, he had gifts, amount of genius, he had tremendous facility, which people don't realize he could write fast and easily. It was not a torture chamber for him to write, it poured out of him, he was simply so active that the question of when and how he could find time, you know, to do all the things he wanted.

Speaker And it's well known his his his battle with it triple threat, the pianist, the conductor and the composer at the same time, which was going to be and he turned out to be all of them. And, you know, but then people said if he picked one, he would have been great at one and then the others.

Speaker But he did the right. Something on that subject, what was it when reading the recent biographies of Lenny, what struck me the most when I finished was the activity. It's hard to believe how many concerts he conducted in his life, and it's an amazing activity. Thousands upon thousands of appearances over and over and over and over and over again. It's an amazing accomplishment. Perhaps if you hadn't conducted so much, you could have written more. But you can't can't fault one of the other.

Speaker The biggest concertizing will have been living.

Speaker Yes, it was characteristic. And then also the world doesn't need 104 symphonies by Haydn at the moment. It doesn't even have room for the three Haydn symphonies. You know, there's no room for anything. There's no room at the top, the middle of the bottom. It's a very crowded scene.

Speaker And I don't think that fact many at all. But there was always a chance to perform and composition. For one reason or another was slated possibly. But I await the evaluation that will happen, that may be a very good idea. I don't know. The last opera I ever heard it. This is problematic. I understand. Does any good friend, good friend?

Speaker When we were young, we're very good friends, like like we see with the Lenny Bernstein that I knew had not become Leonard Bernstein yet, in the words of his father. I remember how his father said, if I had known, I didn't know I was going to have Leonard Bernstein. My son was going to be Leonard Bernstein when he was just when he was complaining that Lenny wasn't making any money in those days. And I remember hearing the old man complaining about Lenny. He'd come up to me, said, he's OK, but he's Kalbarri where there's no money. I said, don't worry about the money, Sam, you know? But then he became Leonard Bernstein, the Leonard Bernstein as a young man.

Speaker It was a very good friend and a very natural thing he he got. More difficult with with his success and perhaps I'm not sure I didn't know him in his later days, perhaps like all conductors. He felt for his own publicity and there were signs of that. I don't want to go on and on your story, but conductors personally are very clear to me that what he has said and I been married and that a little bit of informatic, they they have a vanity which I find detestable and an important all out of proportion to what they deserve. Their position of power is so paramount, they control everything. As a composer who doesn't conduct, I find it absolute paralyzing to be at the mercy of conductors taste. Yeah, but that's not that's not about me. Mean that's what was wonderful about Lenny. That was somebody I knew I could bring things to and he would care.

Speaker And look look at the man he was talking about the early years. And he was corresponding with you. Not very often though. Yeah, I was in psychoanalysis during that time. Yeah, I guess so.

Speaker I don't know the full psychoanalysis, but he was seen shrinks, as I say.

Speaker What was this? Because it was fashionable. What do you what do you think he what were the issues he was trying to resolve.

Speaker I wasn't, I wasn't in on it. I was not a friend that he discussed all that stuff with it, possibly his struggle with homosexual heterosexual problems. It's possible that that was my main concern.

Speaker Being a musician makes you kind of crazy anyway. At that point, he was not being very successful, which got it to create more pain. I don't know whether he's a continuum in psychoanalysis. I don't think it was a deep Thukral psychoanalysis that lasted for years his whole life.

Speaker So life went to shrinks. I don't know what a waste of money.

Speaker You know, I read that you talk well, it doesn't matter whose apartment it was, but it was interesting to me that the world of people that you guys were hanging out in those early years, Delmore, Schwartz and James Baldwin, can you talk about that, that experience of any kind of people that were in your life in the early days in New York?

Speaker And Lenny's like the early years, the most eminent people, I think, gathered at Aaron Copland's loft. I remember sessions there and I don't remember exactly who was there, but Lenny was there. Leo Smith, the eminent American pianist, was there. And we heard Lenny played fancy free, I think, on the piano for us that time.

Speaker And he played.

Speaker You said on I don't remember gatherings that had on that there was a close friend of ours was Arthur Berger at that point, who was the music critic of the initially the New York Sun and then the Herald Tribune with Fred Thompson. They were the critical team under the Herald Tribune. And Arthur had a big laugh, too, down on 29th Street to Street. And there Lenny occasionally came. And there we had very eminent crew. There we have the writers and Auden was there and Delmore Schwartz was there and Paul Goodman was there, that the past few people and James Agee, I remember, and karpiak about all this involvement was there.

Speaker I don't know about that one. Not at Athersys, probably it's possible.

Speaker Now, how did Lenny then hold his own in this group?

Speaker Oh, yes. Lenny was Lenny was not an unsophisticated person.

Speaker And he he was reasonably well read, I imagine. I don't know that he knew comedy and philosophy at that point, but I he certainly knew what was going on. You described him as an intellectual now, not as not as intellectual in the sense of a partisan review intellectual. He was not that. As a tease and I say, the trouble with you, let me assure you, when you got your intellectual life at cocktail parties, sometimes he was shallow sometimes, but I underestimated him. I remember personally he was not as sharp as I thought because he.

Speaker So, so so what if it wasn't up on the latest intellectual chic, you know, it didn't make much difference. He was such a musician.

Speaker He also had an astounding intellect, but he also had an astounding intellect. Yes, a pretty smart look at how he chose to use that, you know, with, you know, maybe. But but he he read all the time as he did.

Speaker He read and he could do puzzles to grab acrostics and things like that. I'm addicted to the London Times. Cryptic puzzles. I know when he did Cryptics, but he probably did. I wish he were around. I could ask him some questions. I'm stuck on one right now.

Speaker But he loved I loved doing puzzles he loved.

Speaker And even though his music is not intellectual in the sense of the Beethoven Groser Fuger, he understood what the what the rules for what he would understand these things. So he understood them perfectly well.

Speaker When you say that you underestimated him, that he it wasn't a shallow as you thought. Can you elaborate on that?

Speaker Well, I. I teased him once about picking up his intellectual information at cocktail parties, but it was not a justified tease because he wasn't that silly, was my error, not his.

Speaker He he.

Speaker I was very busy performing and.

Speaker That takes you out of certain academic circles where you can get academically sharp, you know, and but he was perfectly capable of being intellectually sharp if he cared. And he also was very suspicious about people who intellectually sharp and unmusical, too, which was worthless to him, useless to him. And he was right. And there's nothing like somebody spouting about music who has no talent whatsoever, is not sensitive to it.

Speaker So then he was very sensitive to musical talent and other people, and he could only have been that way because he was so talented himself.

Speaker They nurtured that with him and nurtured.

Speaker I think it was kind of the young people. Yes.

Speaker One of my students who went to Tangoed, I remember, said he's crazy, he liked me, he thought I was talent. So he said, here's my Jagwar, you can drive for the whole week. He gave me the whole car ride in the car because Jaguar had given him a car so he didn't need another car. So he gave it to this kid because the kid was talented. He was very nice.

Speaker I mean, strangely, it's about can you have other examples of this kind of spontaneous acts of ladies that were seemingly kind of cuckoo cuckoo?

Speaker He wasn't particularly Kyouko, you know, ever. It was wild sometimes. Said that later in life, he. I won't tell you how he made a smoke pot with it was. I want to try everything.

Speaker I don't know whether drugs, whether he was he probably tried drugs, probably, but I don't know if not for long, because he couldn't have he couldn't have performed and would have paralyzed him too much. We know he smoked incessantly and I think he drank undoubtedly a railroad car full of martinis in his time.

Speaker And he had a very strong constitution.

Speaker And he could knock himself out all the time and recover in an amazingly short time was amazing when he put his body through. This is an accidental story.

Speaker I remember in 1950, early days of High Fidelity, the Koussevitzky Foundation, gave money for recording my classic 75 classic orchestra. Of course, then he was going to do it and we got into the studio. We're going to take the whole day to do it morning and afternoon. And then he arrived with a tremendous cold virus like flu is called and knock himself out in the morning session.

Speaker And it was undoubtedly carrying a fever, about 102. He took a cab and dashed up to the doctor, got some shots, flu shots that like that came back and knocked himself out for the entire afternoon, heavy, heavy recording and survived it, you know, and it was an act of loyalty to kill himself that way. But it wasn't required. But it was amazing that he could do it and stand up afterwards with a big temperature and sick as a dog. And he was constantly doing this and he would go on sick all the time and come up smiling, go go down, take a nap for two hours, come up fresh as a daisy, bouncing. Now, after the hour on his feet, you would think it was somebody knocked him with a haymaker and come back two hours later. Bang, sunlamp. And, you know, I think he did ultraviolet lampman and and he come back fresh as a daisy over and over and over again.

Speaker And he lived to be 70, 75, 70, 72.

Speaker You know, at the rate that he disappeared himself in later years, I was amazed that he live that long. So he's a very strong constitution, very strong body. He was not terribly, terribly have very wide shoulders and very powerful trunk like that, as I remember, and. I don't need exercises to keep up your strength, Stravinsky used to do Bibles on the wall, awful things, but I don't he did any of that stuff, but he was strong physically. You know, quite active conductors live a long time because a conductor is very good for the ego in it. And it's not a sedentary life.

Speaker So it's good action is used to say, thanks very much, conductor, because he spoke and he was conducting bringing huge amounts of oxygen that this is what he attributed to to some degree, that he lived as long as he had never, never heard that one, actually.

Speaker Well, he had he was struggling with asthma, though, so that would. Yeah.

Speaker And describe you were there when they conducted Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, when the Berlin Wall came down.

Speaker I saw it on television. On television. I saw it. I was not there. But you had a description of it that was very interesting.

Speaker Can you describe how you what I saw what I said. When did I say it? Where do you get this one?

Speaker For the pages of research, by God, it's wonderful. You said you were shaking his head as I watched him at the end and I saw what was going through his head when he said she said, well, I think I got it down pretty good after all these years of doing it.

Speaker I saw it with his head that that was what he was thinking. I think I had down pretty good.

Speaker Now I can turn around and face to face my face. The applause. I say that to Humphrey. Who? Humphrey.

Speaker But I wasn't there. But he must have said that on television that I saw. Let him I said that afterwards. I went, no, I think he thought what was going through his head.

Speaker I think Lenny said that afterwards in a television interview afterwards.

Speaker Probably, but I think I think that's what happened.

Speaker I didn't see it. It's too bad, but I didn't do it.

Speaker It's all very good. Tell me what describe playing with letting it on your mind.

Speaker I mean, when I was conducting and you did love you did you did your forehand when we were undergraduates at Harvard Spark quite spontaneously, we started playing forehand and to piano concerts because we were quite good pianists and it was fun to do.

Speaker And Lenio was the organizer. He organized all the concerts and he was there. He was the life behind the party. I just want to sit and smoke. I don't want to play in public particularly. But he said, come on, we've got to go on now. And he was always running the show and we gave really interesting concerts. We played some very difficult and important loud music.

Speaker We played among them Stravinsky, the great masterpieces of Stravinsky, the two piano concerto concerto for two piano solo pianos. And we did a pretty good job of it. And then he was Foxo. He gave me the hardest part on the top and he played the bottom bit. All right. And then we played, I don't say huge number, but then I wrote a piece for us to play my forehand sonata and we played that. So we played for him. We played an enormous forehand sonata and we were quite devilish sometimes that we played a Mozart piece. And if I remember and I said, this audience doesn't know anything, so let's flat every dominant with a G flat in our front, which is a technical thing, but it's an outrageous thing to do because the audience wouldn't know the difference because they didn't have any sense of style.

Speaker When went through the whole concept, we did it, you know. So the Mozart sound like Grig because of this flatting in the diners. And other times we we would take a concert date in New York in order to get a free trip and organization was going to sponsor us so we'd go no pay. But then we and they wanted us to play some pieces by Shostakovich and Prokofiev and. We didn't have time to practice, I remember, so we decided, well, you do the Prokofiev and out of the Shostakovich and we got up at this concert and also a semi literate audience and we improvise a pickup up here improvising. And we just made up these pieces on the spur of the moment. And the review said that the that they were happy. The use gave us great praise for the first shot and we made it up out of whole cloth. So we were having fun with high jinks.

Speaker You know, kids project that if you did have great fun together, you know, stories like that, things you you needed together.

Speaker I said we play we didn't play that many concerts. It wasn't hundreds around like that as maybe 20 at the most around the Boston area. And we played at the Boston Contemporary Institute of Art.

Speaker And we had a great success there. Uh.

Speaker If there's a story, I don't know whether you were there, but I know that as young students, I read that you and Mildred and Leidy and a couple of other students would, you know, kind of show up and go to the balcony and get the cheap seats to see the BSA.

Speaker Oh, yeah, 50 cent seats in the House.

Speaker And were you there when Koussevitzky conducted and he got a standing ovation and everybody looked at whether he was still sitting down? It's a very the matter. And he said, I'm so jealous.

Speaker You know, I don't remember that. I remember that because it could have happened. I wasn't there. Sounds like something that I remember, Mildred. But sometimes, Mildred, I didn't overlap too much at all.

Speaker Um.

Speaker You have quote in one of your interviews about Lennie's breakthrough and you said Breakthroughs happen to people born to be stars.

Speaker I did, yeah.

Speaker Did God save us from biographer's? You know how Great Britain was? Pretty good. But the girl wrote the first book that Pacyga got everything I taught when she called me. If I said, I don't trust this girl, I'm not going to tell her very much. And the few things I did to it, every single one of them is totally distorted. Anybody and she everything in the whole book is distorted. I didn't never read it. And she made a million and a half dollars out of that book. Disgrace is worse than O.J. Simpson.

Speaker Now, it wasn't very good, but there is one story that I found interesting. And I know you talked you already talked a little bit about Leidy before he became.

Speaker But I had a sense from some of the stories you told that that on some level that he tried to stay away, but it was just so hard for him to do because the demands on him. We talked a little bit about that.

Speaker Lenny French. Lenny, as an old friend of state, an old friend for an awfully long time, as far as I can see. The last time I ever saw a personal basis, I met him accidentally walking around the street in New York and he said, you've got to come up to my apartment. It's going to be like old times, come on up. And I don't particularly want to go because I knew what was going to happen. And he invited me up. He was I said we were both in our late 40s or early 50s then.

Speaker I went up to Park Avenue apartment and he brought me a drink and and we were trying to talk about old times and with the best will in the world, he he and with two secretaries screening his calls, he couldn't get off the phone for two hours and he wouldn't let me go.

Speaker But he kept me. I sat there and I barely got through with him and with him. He had to take all his calls with international calls. That's the degree of celebrity was so tremendous. I couldn't I find it hard to believe. So he was running the offense, but he couldn't. He couldn't be. The world wouldn't let him.

Speaker It was that kind of thing that they said.

Speaker I don't think I don't know. But I think if it had stopped, he would have been sad that he needed it, too. And even as a young man, I when when I first knew him, he was so clearly a performer. We got we got a little neighborhood party together. And I remember one day going over in somebody's car and there was a little girl who was about at the party sitting in between us, and she said with a big, big piano sitting next to her, she said, I hope nobody asked me to play. And we burst out laughing. And then when we got to the party, Lennie literally would hip people off the bench if they were showing off. Lenny had had to do the showing off at the party, even when I'm talking about 19 years old.

Speaker So he was born to it and he loved being in front of an audience, it's clear. And he needed it and he had it, you know, what do you think drove Lenny?

Speaker What do you think made him tick?

Speaker The gift.

Speaker Great love for everybody here. It was a it was very emotional, very concerned with love and Aluva even, you know that. Wanted people to love him, but also had something to give.

Speaker And a genius. Feels compelled to to carry out his gift and. Tick. You know, that's enough to make somebody tick.

Speaker His driver's legendary, you know, the general driver, the type of people with drives, it was a tremendous drive.

Speaker Sometimes it can take sometimes if you caught them in a tied moment and I'd say, well, you still have this guy around 40s. I said, no more, no more. I haven't got any more. That was not true. He went on to write a lot of pieces after that. But sometimes, you know, like everyone else, he would be a little out of gas. But it wasn't often and I'm repeating in two hours under the sun lamp with a little nap bang, off he went.

Speaker Is there anything that you like to say about Danny that I haven't asked?

Speaker We could use. Fifty Lenny Bernstein is in this culture. Someone who cared that much about music. Who knew where music was beautiful?

Speaker There aren't too many people with that sense and profound instinct for music as a conductor, for composers to bring music to unrivaled. So he used to be best. Great minister.

Harold Shapero
Interview Date:
American Archive of Public Broadcasting GUID:
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"Harold Shapero, Leonard Bernstein: Reaching for the Note." American Masters Digital Archive (WNET). 10 Nov. 1997,
(1997, November 10). Harold Shapero, Leonard Bernstein: Reaching for the Note. [Video]. American Masters Digital Archive (WNET).
"Harold Shapero, Leonard Bernstein: Reaching for the Note." American Masters Digital Archive (WNET). November 10, 1997. Accessed June 30, 2022


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