Speaker OK, my first question was your first memory of meeting your cousin, Robert Freeman, who became Robert Kennedy, what we used to call him Bondie in those days, that was about 1935, 36. And he used to come to a place we lived near the Madelin in the street, which was infamous because of the prostitutes who used to walk up and down the street. But Bob loved to come there. And my father, who was sort of a good amateur photographer, had managed to have a little darkroom.
Speaker Yes, that's. Yeah, that was the. Stay with Judy. OK, still rolling in to Mark.
Speaker OK, so you're again, I'm sorry, your first memory of but I love what you were saying about how you used to come. That's great.
Speaker OK, so he used to come to our place, which was around the middlemen in the street, which was infamous, but he loved to come around and see all those girls walking up and down the street. Fortunately, we lived in the part of the street, which was a little farther from the mcglinn, which is the hottest place for these girls. And he used to come and have sometimes his photographs developed in my father's little darkroom. My father loved photography and he was quite a good amateur photographer, so he had built a little darkroom in the back of our apartment. And when Bob didn't have time to stay, he just dumped his film in front of the door when it was locked. And we knew what to do with it. So we developed. And eventually he would come and edit his photographs and my father would print them and I would try them, you know, on the drying machine, which was you say that operated by hand. And we put them in an envelope. And eventually Bob would Bunday, we used to call him at the time, would come and pick them up.
Speaker And what year would this have been?
Speaker About 35.
Speaker Before he went to the Spanish War.
Speaker And how old were you then?
Speaker Oh, my God, that was eight years old.
Speaker And so you could just say, what was he, what was he, what kinds of things would be taking pictures of him?
Speaker Well, that's asking too much for me because I don't remember anything at all of what kind of pictures he was taken. I know that those in those times Paris was in an uproar because it was 1936 approaching with all the demonstrations and everything. So I suppose he was taking pictures of, you know, all the political events and things like that. But I couldn't tell you exactly what pictures he was taken because he was too young at the time. And all I was interested in was to learn ballet dancing. And the rest wouldn't interest me at all, except that I loved Boundy. He was such a handsome young man, you know, he was so attractive.
Speaker He just loved him that how is he doing at that time of his life in terms of money or in terms of money?
Speaker He was always out of money, but so were we. So actually, what we could do, the best we could do for him is to offer him meals when he had time to, you know, sit down and eat because he was always running around like mad. And sometimes we would leave a metro ticket on the table for him to use because that was the only thing we could do for him.
Speaker Did you know Gerta?
Speaker No, I never met her, so but I knew about this story. I mean, the love story, I knew about it.
Speaker What did what did you know?
Speaker Well, I don't remember anything at all, except with my mother used to say and Julia, of course, when she used to be in Paris.
Speaker And I knew that it was the greatest thing in his life at the time. He was really, really it was passion. It wasn't love. It was really passion.
Speaker I love you to describe on these parents, Julia well.
Speaker A jury at the time was I was frightened by her, missy. Yeah, because she had such a strong personality, you know, she was always straightforward and things like that and.
Speaker Sort of like a closed door. It's the doorbell got.
Speaker So, Julia, once again, Julia well, Julia used to scare me, actually.
Speaker But I don't know much about her in those days because all she did was, you know, was through Paris and go to the to the station and from for the state's.
Speaker So we didn't really know her. No, I didn't really know her in those days, you were later. Later, which is still scary. Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker Because she would ask me, what do you used to have for breakfast? But I said, you know, like every Frenchman, coffee, milk and a piece of bread, you eat your cereals. At the time I didn't know what cereals were. You see, it was right after the war.
Speaker We didn't have nothing to do with cereals all these years. I had no idea what she meant. So I just stared at her and she said, Don't you know what cereals are? I said, No, I don't. So she started to explain to me and I said, Oh, no, no, no, I don't have that. But you should.
Speaker So, I mean, that was it. So she she like to tell people what to do? Oh, yes, quite a lot.
Speaker And the father, did you meet his father? No, no, no, not at all. They were already in Paris. Oh, I was born in Paris.
Speaker You see, I didn't realize that. But then I noticed that you know him in Berlin.
Speaker No, I didn't know him in Berlin because I wasn't in Berlin at all.
Speaker I just lived in Paris all this time. But my mother's sister was in Berlin excuse me, with her husband, who was at the time the head of a factory which was making what you call it, sells water, something like that, you know, water with bubbles. In those days, you put a capsule of gas on the bottle. So he was head of one of those factories, you know, in Berlin.
Speaker And they lived there quite well. They had a car. They had they had a nice apartment with, you know, carpets all around the place, et cetera. And they had a refrigerator, which was quite unusual in those days. So, I mean, they were they were looking nice. And Boundy was there trying to make. A little living, and when he was really stuck, he would go see CPV, which is the name of my aunt, and, you know, she would feed him and give him a little money and even give him a bed and breakfast.
Speaker And so it was in Paris then and.
Speaker He would you said he would bring this film and you would develop. Did he come in? Was he ever working in your apartment and was editing?
Speaker Yes, but otherwise, no. No, he would just dump his film, come to edit whenever he had time to, and pick it up when it was ready and that's it.
Speaker So you really started working for him when you were very, very young?
Speaker Well, actually, yes. Yes.
Speaker I know that you said that he would always he was always writing figure, always writing numbers.
Speaker Yes, right.
Speaker Yeah, he was he was terribly anxious about, you know, having enough money to not only help people, but keep things rolling, you see.
Speaker So whenever he had the few seconds, he would sit down or even in the, you know, on the bar someplace, pick up a piece of paper. And, you know, this comes from this place and this from another magazine. And if I win such and such a money, you know, on betting this horse, maybe, maybe even who knows?
Speaker I mean, he was always calculating always when he was very poor in Paris. Where did he live? How did he.
Speaker Well, in some small hotels around Mobile now. So maybe don't show or some place like that, you know, I don't remember.
Speaker I'm sorry.
Speaker Did he ever get kicked out of this hotel?
Speaker Oh, sometimes, yes.
Speaker Sometimes yes.
Speaker Sometimes he was kicked out of the hotel.
Speaker But he used to find always someone to, you know, give him at least one or two nights at their place.
Speaker They really had pretty rough.
Speaker Yeah, pretty rough. Yeah. But see, I'm I keep thinking that he enjoyed this life, although it was very difficult for him, but he enjoyed it because it was a challenge all the time. And he liked to be confronted with, you know, difficulties and things to do.
Speaker That's good. That's interesting, and you said that later on he he did kind of repair your family. In certain ways, he was generous to your family, to my family.
Speaker Well, I think that he he he was miserable when he arrived as a, you know, war correspondent.
Speaker He was a discreet hotel, and that's how I found him. I used to go to the to the hotel several times a week and ask for him. And I was practically the only young woman, let's say a young girl in civilian clothes hanging from this tree waiting for Bob Chapman to come back from. I don't know what poker game. And finally he came and he was distressed when he saw in what state we were because we had been through very difficult times. Both my parents were sick. They couldn't work. I was young and I had to pursue my studies a little bit in order to try and make some something out of, you know, my future. So he did everything in his power to help us and he would tell me, come to this, describe such and such a day and just sit there tight and wait for me until I come back. So I used to do that. And whether he came back from a poker game or from the racetracks when he was winning something, you know, he would be so happy to give me a bank note that I couldn't refuse it. Because it was so I mean, genuine. It was just like that, was he a generous man? Oh, yes, absolutely. I would say that he would as one to the other. You see, that's what we say in French, you know, to Jock to dress.
Speaker Paul, can you explain it for us?
Speaker Well, I'll tell you, when Jimmy, you know, his girlfriend came to Paris, she used to come with loads of, you know, suitcases and things like that. And he would call me to his room. And while she was unpacking, he would tell her, give her something. Why don't you give her something you have so much here, just give her something so she would give me eventually something which I would I wouldn't accept. But I mean, this is the way he was, because when he wasn't able to do his own, I mean, to oblige himself because he didn't have enough, then he always turned to the people who he knew were generous, but who also could afford to be generous.
Speaker But OK, no, no, that's fine. And this is the scene at the Scream, Amsterdam.
Speaker So I am kind of distracted by it, especially John and I can see the corner of my eyes with my moving.
Speaker Judy, I need to be here.
Speaker That's OK. We so often forget that.
Speaker OK, so, yeah, I'd love to hear you describe this, what was it like as a young girl you were at that time at the screen? How old were you? When was that? Nine. Nineteen forty five.
Speaker Well. I was 18.
Speaker And so what was it like, what was it like in this big room? Well, it's correspondent.
Speaker Well, I was I was afraid of all of these, you know, tall guys. We weren't used in Europe to see such many handsome and very tall men walking around in their uniforms.
Speaker It was very, very impressing, you know, and also they were our liberators. I mean, so we we felt very, very grateful to them. But how to express that to people you don't know, you have never seen I mean, in the days when they used to come in to Paris, you know, with all the flowers and everything, that was fine.
Speaker But a few months later, it was rather difficult. So I used to be very shy.
Speaker You know, I waited there and patiently and waited for Bondie to come back. At the time, I still didn't call him Bob. It was still Bande for me.
Speaker And what were all these guys were wandering around the room? What were they doing there?
Speaker Well, I just don't know. They were just walking around the place, that's all. That's all. And, well, I never went to any worse than the lobby. You know, I was just sitting there.
Speaker And you mentioned in an interview that you told me that you really needed to work that way.
Speaker That's what you can tell that story.
Speaker Yeah, well, as I said a little before, my parents were both sick. My father was in hospital for six months. He nearly lost his sight. So, I mean, I felt sort of, you know, compelled to do something for them. And my mother insisted that I should go back to school and, you know, go through the exams and all that. So I said, OK, I'll do that, but only until I get the diploma. And after that, I'm going to work. So she agreed to that.
Speaker And I went to school, learned like mad, you know, because I had to, four years behind me be doing which I didn't do anything at all. So I had to, you know, compensate for all that. And that worked very hard all night long sometimes.
Speaker And a funny thing was I discovered jazz at these, you know, in those days because there was a program, a night jazz program, and I was doing my homework listening to jazz.
Speaker So I was sort of, you know, getting familiar a little bit with with America and also through movies, because my parents and myself were very, very fond of movies.
Speaker We went to movies all the time, maybe three or four times a week. So we knew all this. And that was amazing about Shirley Temple since I wanted to be a dancer myself, you see, and Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers and all that. I mean, finally we got to see them on screen, you see. So what was I saying?
Speaker Are you talking about having to work? So, yes, OK, so I gave up ballet dancing, of course.
Speaker What could I do?
Speaker And when I met Bob, actually, it was very, very funny because he asked me to go to the screen one day at a certain time and he wasn't there.
Speaker So I was tired of, you know, waiting, sitting around and having those guys look at me all the time.
Speaker So I went for a walk and I got back. And going into this creep, he was coming out and that was our first meeting after the war.
Speaker That's how we really met.
Speaker Did you know about his pictures or is it a no, not at the time.
Speaker Not at the time. We knew that he was everywhere. We knew that, you know, we were sure, although we had no actual thing to a certain where he was. We knew he was with LeClaire. We knew he was actually my my father and I were trying the deed to go near the, you know, where the American troops were coming in.
Speaker And we never got there because with such a big crowd, we never got there. So we we didn't see him then. And we had to wait until we heard that the the press headquarters where this keep and that's how we got to get to see him.
Speaker So this must have been just after the liberation. Yes. So maybe you could tell about the liberation of you, but also how Cappa must have felt about her finally being free.
Speaker We never talked about that. No, no. Actually, Bob, never talk to me about his assignments, the way he felt about them, except when he was about to go to Japan, which we probably will talk a little later. And so he never mentioned he was wounded or injured or anything. We never knew that. Never.
Speaker But OK, but then maybe you could just talk about your own feelings when Paris was liberated.
Speaker Oh, my own feelings, there were mixed feelings because we had been through a real ordeal. You know, it was just horrible what we had lived through. Also, we were not deported. Unlike the rest of my family, they were all deported and my grandmother died of hunger in Budapest during the siege of Budapest and my first cousin was one of the lost children of Europe. You remember the movie? Guess of advice, find this movie about the lost children of Europe, so he was one of them, but we didn't know about that in those days. We had lost track of everybody. We had no news from the people in Berlin because they had to fly away from Berlin, because my uncle, so-called uncle, because he was the husband of my aunt, was born in Arad, which became Romanian after the Versailles Treaty. So they had to move to Romania. And then we didn't know what happened to them until a few years later, you know, when Mel was coming in. That that was it. So liberation, you want to know what we used to in those days live in a rental rented apartment in the 15th Island under false names, of course. We were lucky to be able to buy false papers. So we lived there for a month, we didn't have anything to eat, just onions, that's all that was available in Paris and the little corn bread, which was absolutely impossible to eat because was so tough, you know, it was so impossible to eat anyway. And I was desperately trying to buy some black market food. And I used to, across Paris, walk across Paris for hours to places where, you know, from here say we would know that there was some food available and I would come back to that place, which is far out near the outskirts of Paris, walking, of course. And so bombing's because I just couldn't take the metro with, you know, black market food. Being a young girl, I would have been arrested, you know, carrying bags like this. And people were just denouncing you say that everyone, you know, because I explained denouncing for the audience.
Speaker Well, actually, people who had something against other people were go to the police and say, this has done this and that, and they are black marketing, etc, etc. You see, so the police would come and check.
Speaker And can you explain what would why did you have to have false papers?
Speaker Because we were Jews, you see, and we had to run away from the Germans because at one point the Germans were. You say that rounding up people of Jewish origin and since my parents were born in Budapest, Hungary, was a member of the pact, you know, with Germany. So they gathered the Hungarian Jews, the very latest, you know, the Poles went first, etc. and. Oh, well, I don't think you want to know too many details about that.
Speaker But anyway, we had to run away when the Germans, Gestapo, accompanied by French gendarmes, came to fetch us in the apartment we used to live in. We didn't open the door. It was five o'clock in the morning. And fortunately, we had a very good concierge who said, oh, I haven't seen them for ages. But she said to the Germans, if you want to go up, go up and see for yourselves. So they came up, knocked at the door and we were just, you know, frozen with fear. But we didn't answer the door, of course. So they finally went away. But the next day, we I mean, the next day, the next hour, we just had to leave the place and where to go. I mean, my mother went one way, my father the other way and the third way. I mean, we had to separate.
Speaker And do you think that this was the reason that the couple saw this coming and that's why he left in thirty nine, left Paris and thirty nine and thirty nine, he left Paris in thirty nine to go to America?
Speaker No, I don't know. I couldn't answer that question. I just don't know, we've been running away from fascism.
Speaker Yes, that's right. But we knew what was happening because of my aunt who was living in Berlin and who was living also the ways of Hitler and Nazism. And she would lie to us what was happening. And she even invited my mother to the Olympic Games.
Speaker You see, in 30. When was that? 36. So my mother went there to visit and she came back with those awful news and she told us what was happening there. So we knew, you know, that eventually it would come to us.
Speaker Can you talk and you may not know this, but can you talk a little bit about fascism in Hungary and no, I know nothing about that. So so we were starting to talk about how Cappa told you to learn what to do to to be able to work.
Speaker Yes. Well, I must tell you something very funny. My mother was a seamstress, so knowing that I would go see Kepa, you know, who was in my memory, such a handsome young man. You know, I thought I would just try to look my best, you know? But there was no material. There was nothing. My mother was working like, you know, like a dog to make a living for all of us.
Speaker And I used to work and I used to say that the Menck you know, the mannequins, the models with pieces of of material that was left from whatever my mother was working with, you see, and I used to try and build something nice for me to wear.
Speaker And every time I went to his crib, I tried to wear something different, you know, so that I look the best possible and get the just a doll that, you know, every time he saw me, I was dressed up in something else. And it was for him a typical reason I was born there. And he always said to me, don't be frightened, known before it, you know, because I used to answer back to him and he used to have me turn round, you know, and he looked at me at all sides, etc., etc.. I was very flattered you so came from that background.
Speaker And you could say what his parents did for a living.
Speaker What his parents did when I think Julia had a shop and his father, I don't know what he did. All I know about him is what I heard and that he was gambling a lot and I'm not sure. But maybe he even committed suicide.
Speaker I don't think so. I think he had cancer. He had cancer.
Speaker Well, because that was a rumor, you know, in the family that he committed suicide because he lost he lost everything, playing, gambling and all that. And for Julia, you know, she lost her her shop several times because of the money that his husband was, you know, gambling, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, that's all I know about.
Speaker And so so you met up on the screen, then you and. I just trying to lead to him telling you to learn English.
Speaker OK, well, he asked me what I was up to, so I told him that I went through the exams and I succeeded, you know, barely. But I did. And he said, Now, what are your plans?
Speaker So since I was fond of, you know, theatre, ballet, cinema and whatnot, I told him that I would like to go into the theater.
Speaker And he said, oh, that's not a good job for you. What else? So I tried to think I said, well, I just don't know. Apart from that, I lost the ability that my ability in dancing because, you know, having not done any exercise for four years, it was the end of it. And I said, well, I don't know. I just don't know what to do. And he said, I have a big plan. So he said, let's go for a walk, so we went for a walk on the boulevard.
Speaker Delamar, Lin, Wood, Valdek, Capucine.
Speaker And he said, I have a big plan, I want to do this and that, and if you learned typing and how about your English?
Speaker He said, I said, well, I had about four years of English at school and maybe it's not very good, but I can do is try and, you know, improve.
Speaker And he said, well, that's one thing. So you learn typing, you learn English, and when you're ready, you tell me.
Speaker I said, OK, that's very good, very good. Let's do that.
Speaker So I went to a school in which I could learn typing English was not so good with the school, but I thought I was, uh, talented enough for foreign languages to, you know, try and learn by myself. So I read books, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker And eventually when I knew enough typing and I studied short writing, too, but it didn't help at all.
Speaker You studied sort of shorthand, shorthand. And so.
Speaker I went back to him one day and I said, well, I know how to type and what's the next step? He said, the next step is for me to go. I don't know which place. And when I come back, you come back to me and everything will be in a better shape and then we can do something very useful. I said, OK, but in the meantime, I hadn't met my husband in the theater and I told him, but, you know, I'm engaged. So we say we're engaged, engaged to one to be married.
Speaker Oh, don't you ever do that before my seeing this guy.
Speaker I said, do what you have to say to it.
Speaker He said, no, no, no, no, no, I want to see him before. So don't commit yourself to anything before I meet him.
Speaker So I said, fine, but when we start going to be. So he said, next time I come to Paris, OK, next time would be when I don't know. I said, shall I wait, what, two more years? I can't do that. He said, No, no, no, it will be sooner than that. So I said, OK, fine. And how do you see these things coming?
Speaker He said, I'll go to your place and you can arrange for me dinner or lunch or something and I'll come.
Speaker So I looked at him and I said, you will come to have dinner or lunch with us in our small apartment. I can't believe it, I said, you're just making a joke, you're pulling my leg, it's impossible. You can never do that, he said. You'll be surprised.
Speaker And I was surprised because next time I saw him, he said not when is it going to happen? I said, You want to come back. So we set up a date and there he came.
Speaker With my fiancee at the time and both my parents and she said them and, you know, is the eternal secret, she looked at my husband like this and just looked and stared and looked at me and not saying a word.
Speaker And we both so and myself was scared stiff, you know? And finally he said. OK. You can marry the guy. So that was it. And at the time, I think he was preparing to go to Israel.
Speaker And he said to me that Magnum was going, you know, slowly but surely that he was making final steps for establishing the agency and all that. And he said that in the meantime, if you could do a few things for me, that would be nice. So I said, well, any time I finished my school days and I in the meantime, I had a little job as a secretary someplace and that was very useful to practice typing, etc.. So but I gave up that job to go to the theater where I met my husband.
Speaker So he said, because I might be needing you when I returned from Israel, OK, any time, just let me know.
Speaker And in the meantime, I had sprained my ankle wide angle so badly that I had to stay in bed, you know, with my legs stretched and all that, so I couldn't go to the office on the football center on the way.
Speaker And upon his return from Israel, he would send me his takes color photographs, mostly in the walls, you know, for me to get and mount. And I did a little bit, that is, you know, get rid of the bad pictures, et cetera. So I used to do that with my legs twitch, and I was very happy to do that.
Speaker So is it something about you were one of the first Magnum employees?
Speaker Yes, that's right. Well, Israel, I think, was in 49.
Speaker And in those days, I was sort of working benevolently for Magnum because they couldn't pay they didn't have enough money to stop the agency rolling. And he would say, just wait a few months and you'd be on the payroll. So I waited and waited and waited. And finally one day he said, OK, you starting 1st of January, 1950. With a, you know, a piece of paper visualizing my being hired by Magnum. So that was the first person hired by Magnum.
Speaker That's pretty great. What's the problem? I just keep saying, yeah, every move.
Speaker The reason behind the. And Margaret.
Speaker OK, so you were the first. So I'd love to hear you talk about Magnum and how it changed over the years that you were there.
Speaker Who? That's a difficult question. When I started there, I was doing approximately everything, you know, going there first thing in the morning and leaving us at night and making tea. Coffee what? Not answering the phone and typing captions, text pieces, whatever you just name it. I was doing everything and I picked up another part of the of the job, which was much more interesting that was selling pictures. And for me, you know, I was a terribly shy little girl at the time and going up to see all those, you know, big shots in famous magazines, you know, and trying to sell Magnum's photos, which I was very proud of, of course. But I mean, you know, selling is a very difficult job. So I sort of, you know, was reluctant in the first place to do this. But finally, it was a challenge.
Speaker And I did it and eventually turned out to be a successful.
Speaker So that was part of the thing, and to improve my English, there was a woman there whose name I don't remember very clearly, but I think it was Elizabeth, something quacky.
Speaker That's it.
Speaker And could you start that again?
Speaker Yes, with how? There was a woman there. There was a woman there who came from London and her name was Elizabeth Crocket. And she became sort of very fond of me because I was really trying my best to be helpful. And she said, you must do something about your English because it's going to be very good, but you need a little help. So I said, oh, I'd be very grateful if you would help me. She said, OK, then the first thing would be for you to answer the phone.
Speaker And I was scared stiff to answer the phone in English because I didn't even know how to say, hold on. You see, it was that bad that in those days, because my English was more literary than, you know, practical. So she forced me to answer the phone and well, eventually, you know, I got a little less scared by the phone and she gave me pieces of text, you know, little pieces of text to translate. And then she would correct the translations. And eventually, you know, after a few months, I could do that all by myself. So she was really she was really the one who started me in English.
Speaker She did pretty well. Oh, you're doing extremely well. I wanted to talk a little bit about this picture. I'm just I'm just going to hold it. Yes. And but you have such a nice thing about what this picture means.
Speaker Well, it sort of sums up the relationship between Bob and me, you see, because he was as kind of protective. But also the difference in age wasn't so big that I couldn't be a girlfriend. Eventually, you see. But I don't know if you want me to say that.
Speaker Sometimes he would say when I go up to his room with the male because I put the male in every morning to wherever he lived. And he used to look at me, you know, with his cigarette and said, no incest, no incest. So I didn't really understand what he meant in those days, you see. But eventually I got around to understanding. So what was the question?
Speaker Well, yeah. Yeah, something about how you the reason that he called you his niece rather than his cousin.
Speaker Well, actually, when he gave me his book report on Israel, he wrote a nice note saying in French, Paul Murphy, Susie Bel Guapa, which means for my daughter Susie, father Kepa. And then he realized that, you know, the difference in age was not so great, so big. So he changed it. And he said to me, you know, Cousine has a bad you see that connection connotation. You can start again. Like he said, cousin has a bad connotation. Everybody would think that we are you are my girlfriend and I don't want this to happen. So why don't you be my niece? I said fine with me. I just love it. So that's how I became his niece.
Speaker And when we could talk about what what he's doing in the picture with his hair, when we were looking at the horses running in, you see, and he was hoping that his horse would get in so that he would win a lot of money. And he used to give me a little bit of money so I could beat myself, you see. But I don't know how. I never bet on the same horses as he did, and I never won anything. But I was happy when he won.
Speaker And what does it show? That he has his hands on your shoulders to meet some.
Speaker Well, you know, it wasn't a relationship was very, very tense, you know, it was very close. We were very close to each other, meaning that he didn't have to tell me speak or anything. I could understand what he meant.
Speaker Contrary to lots of other people like Cartier-Bresson who kept saying, oh, I'll never understand this man, never understand this man. I don't understand the way he speaks. I don't understand his mind.
Speaker But to me, you see, I couldn't understand everything he said.
Speaker Even when he didn't say a thing, I understood what he wanted. So that was the kind of relationship we had and having his hands on my shoulders, you know, it was just meaning that.
Speaker Oh, lovely. So I'd love to hear about the friendship of Cartier-Bresson and Kapa.
Speaker Oh, my God, that was something because they were so far apart, you know, from background, education, everything. I mean, it was amazing the way they could actually work together. But I mean, if they worked so well together, in my opinion, is was it it was because they were always traveling, you see.
Speaker So they didn't see much of each other.
Speaker And how was Cartier-Bresson so different from Kapa?
Speaker Well, you know, he was from a French bourgeoisie, even Hybels was he, and he had a lot of money. And although he seemed to be a kind of a gypsy, you know, for his surrounding his parents, his family, he was a gypsy because, you know, he was going well, he was going some places and he was photographing and, you know, OK, but Bob was a kind of a gypsy inside.
Speaker You see, he was he wasn't meant to stay put some place, he was meant to go, places to see people, and although they didn't really want to see people, he was very happy with his wife at home, with his cup of tea, his bowl of rice. I mean, you know, he was that kind of man reading, drawing, painting.
Speaker And that was that was only meaning that, you know, he has great talent. I mean.
Speaker What did he like about what drew him to capture to be friends with him?
Speaker I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker I really don't know, because every time Bob and I, we had a conversation down in the bistro, you know, down below the Salmonsen Football Center, the way I used to have a coffee and they used to discuss for hours, and finally they go into fights because they really couldn't understand each other. And he was trying to explain something to Bob. And Bob was on his.
Speaker Track, I mean, he was also, you know, very keen on having Magnum do the best. Photography and get the best photographers and get into the biggest magazines all over the places, and he was not so keen on that.
Speaker I mean, was he he was interested in taking good pictures. And the way his pictures were afterwards tweeted me, didn't mean so much to him. My opinion, I may be wrong.
Speaker Did they have different ideas about how to handle the money?
Speaker Well, for one thing, although never understood how Kepa could live without money.
Speaker He could never understand that because Gappah used to tell you that you don't need the money, so leave the money with Magnum. Magnum needs it not for him personally, but to rent the place so only occasionally would accept it. And he accepted to do that for a long time. And he thought that Bob was borrowing money from Magnum to go out and play and gamble with the money. Which wasn't true, of course.
Speaker And so that was one of those things that, you know, was different between them and how did people live without money?
Speaker Very well.
Speaker In another case, like.
Speaker OK, so maybe you could say he lived without money very well, very well, but if you could say the first part so that the audience knows what you're talking about, because if you just say very well, oh, yes, I see, I see.
Speaker Well, in my opinion, Bob was living without money very well because he was always having a poker game going or always going, and he used to get good bets.
Speaker And good tips to bet on and when he lost, well, he lost that was part of the gamble.
Speaker Great. It was great. I've heard a lot about this pinball machine, but yeah, anybody on camera about it? So maybe you could talk about the pinball machine and what happened around it?
Speaker Well, the pinball machine was downstairs in the bistro.
Speaker And when Bob wanted to think things over, you know, and try to find solutions for one of the numerous problems seen Magnum, he went down and just play the pinball machine with coffee and, you know, smoking cigarettes after a cigarette. And eventually he would again pick a piece of paper and try to.
Speaker Well, Susie sold this to match for so much and these two Noiret blown for so much.
Speaker And when are they going to pay? I don't know. So we need this. We need that. And we have to pay salaries and we have to pay this and that. And that was it. I mean, that was his. How do you say that? He's in his office.
Speaker Pinball machine, pinball machine was his office. So other people came down. Yes, yes, yes, because they knew that he would be there.
Speaker So I can't imagine Cartier-Bresson going down to talk to cabinet by the Pymble.
Speaker No, no, no. And this when he went down to the cafe to talk to Kappa Kappa, was just drinking a.
Speaker Cup of coffee or something, you never, I think, never drank alcohol in the Valley, in my opinion. Because when I went down to fetch Gappah for a phone call or something, I always found him with a cup of coffee in front of him.
Speaker That's interesting. So I did not.
Speaker Oh, no, he didn't approve of him drinking, gambling and all that. No, no, not at all.
Speaker That must have caused some tension, I would think, a great deal of tension. OK, um, I'm wondering if you would be able to talk about how Cappa young, healthy young photographers like fish often. Did you see him?
Speaker Well, yes, I was there when they first arrived to to the.
Speaker When was that the third floor? Yes, the they arrived with what they had already done, books, publications and things like that. And what Bob had a very good sense for feeling the talent in people you know and their personality and all that. And he was. A genius about, you know, finding the right man to do to go to the right place at the right time. I mean, he's perfect with that. So when a young photographers came to Magnum, he would, of course, look at their photographs. But he wasn't the only one to decide whether they could join Magnum or not. So he would submit their photographs to the other members of the crew. And that's how he but he was trying to enlarge the range for Magnum to work in the U.S. And the more good talents came, the better for Magnum, because they also came with sometimes their own customers.
Speaker So that was something to, you know, to add to the I read that I've read that cover also really helped the younger photographers along. Is kind of a mentor.
Speaker Yes, that's right. Because he used to look up for jobs for them, you see and think of jobs stories, too, to make all the time.
Speaker I read in your interview done about 20 years ago that he used to send them to the flea market.
Speaker Yes, that's right. That's why I tell that story. Yeah, well, he used to send photographers out to places like the flea market to find out how they would come out with a story, how they would turn around the subject and get something out of it.
Speaker And if they didn't go to the flea market, they would go to the Wild Tollner, the Natsume or maybe do the Bastille Day celebrations, you know, things like that. And then he would study the dead, the outcome.
Speaker And then he would say, this one is good for, you know, going this place, this direction, said, well, that's great.
Speaker That's great.
Speaker Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about his what he called his black beer, which is the year that his back went out and the passport was taken away. Why don't we start by you told the interview a beautiful story about I didn't want to tell you and then finally told you about his passport and why that upset him so much.
Speaker Well, he told me about his passport very accidentally because he refused. Assignments, and I just couldn't figure out why, and I asked him several times, why don't you go this place, that place he used to go to Klosters, you know, for winter skiing and other places, London, and suddenly he wasn't. So, oh, I don't feel like it. I just don't feel like it. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. It doesn't feel to me, etc., etc.. And Magnum needs me. Oh, OK. And finally, he got a document most of the time where he had rented one of the cheapest rooms possible in the place, you know, upstairs and he wouldn't leave the bar, he always hang around the bar.
Speaker And I used to come down with a man, etc. The message is everything.
Speaker And one day again, he said, back with this cigarette and she said, you know what I'm waiting here for? I said, no, I have no idea. He said they took my passport away, so I was just. And I understood exactly what he meant and he wouldn't leave the place for a million dollars because he would think that, you know, if he would leave the place, there comes a call and he missed the call and couldn't get his passport back. So you just, you know, stay there all the time and go to have lunch at the bistro around the corner. It was just just like that.
Speaker And why why did his passport get taken away?
Speaker I suppose he was suspected of still being connected with communist. But he never really talked to me about that in detail. Well, you see, we didn't go into very deep conversations about this, that or the other. As I said a little earlier, we understood each other without really exchanging words. So, I mean, I understood why he was stuck there.
Speaker And and let me just explain, what does it mean when your passports.
Speaker And this is just for an audience, a young audience doesn't really understand what it means to have your passport taken away.
Speaker Well, for a foreigner like he was in France, for instance, and in those days, you needed visas to go everywhere. So without a passport, you couldn't get a visa or a passport means not only identity, but it means, you know, going places. It's opening doors for you.
Speaker So he couldn't accept any assignments to go abroad because he was stuck there without any identity papers.
Speaker In a way, he was a man without a country all his life.
Speaker That's right. That's right. But he was a man of the world. I mean, he loved phones. He lived a lot in London, too. He loved going skiing. He loved to go to the beach. But I mean, he would enjoy this.
Speaker I was just asking you, how did it feel when his passport was revoked? Oh, he felt miserable. I'm sorry.
Speaker So, again, how did you how did you how did it feel in his heart this happened?
Speaker Well, he felt miserable because he sort of felt he was let down being such a, you know, friend of America and having done so much for I'm sorry, you know, got a motorcycle out.
Speaker There are sounds.
Speaker Because this is really important, I want to make sure. Yeah, but I don't think I have much to say about that. He said in that interview he did before that he was hurt. That is right. I don't remember what I said. Well, that's what I was that you felt. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker OK, so one more thing to.
Speaker Well, Bob felt really bad about it. He was miserable. He felt betrayed. He thought that he was let down by the people he knew and also having done all he did doing the war. All those pictures that showed the strength of the U.S. Army and et cetera, et cetera. I mean, he felt that he didn't deserve that treatment.
Speaker And also he had no real connections with communism, although he went to Russia with things like that, didn't mean that he was an active communist. So he didn't understand exactly why this had happened to him.
Speaker It was pretty bad. And then, as I understand it, the very same year he had a back problem.
Speaker Yes, his back was terribly bad in those days, though, I think he had to I don't know exactly what was troubled with his back, but he suffered a lot. And when I brought the mail to him in the morning, wherever he stayed in the Hotel Montana, for instance, in the morning, I would find him lying on the floor and in tears and suffering. And he even put a ball up on the top of the door to stretch himself because he was instructed to do that. And he ended up wearing a corset, which was also terribly painful for him, not only physically but psychologically. It was terrible for him to be crippled, although he was used to be doing war. But I mean, that's something else you could expect, you know, either to be injured or even die doing a battle, but to be diminished as he was. By that, I mean, he was suffering a lot.
Speaker And was he suffering that much when he went to Japan?
Speaker No, that was a little better in those days. It was better. It had improved.
Speaker OK, yeah, I'm going to get to that point yet. But I just wondered if that was part of it. So you you wrote that he didn't like to speak Hungarian?
Speaker No. No, he didn't. He didn't like to speak Hungarian because I suspect that he forgot. And that's that's why you see. But he could understand. And same thing with me, because when you don't practice a language, I mean, you have quite some problems speaking it, but you can still understand what people say when they are addressed to you. So I don't think that he and it's not the same thing with and Cornell. They didn't want to speak Hungarian.
Speaker Do you think it had anything to do with bad memory?
Speaker No, no, no, no, no. Nothing at all. It's just that, you know, he spoke so many different languages very badly to them that he did want to get confused with the language, which was actually very difficult to speak. And it's one of the most difficult languages in Europe. So he didn't want really to spoil his mother tongue.
Speaker I understand. And how did he talk? Can you can you talk or describe how he did?
Speaker No, no, that's impossible to describe. Impossible. It was just as bad. Oh, yeah, that's right.
Speaker What are they doing? Me, it's really the rush hour.
Speaker Oh, it's always rush hour in Paris. It's like it's always like our.
Speaker And you can hear them for a long time. Yeah. Is it gone that.
Speaker So, yeah, OK.
Speaker OK, so Cappa, how did he speak when he speak? He didn't speak any language, actually, he I used to say he was he was speaking Kapa talk, you know, because it was just as bad in France as in English or Italian and German. I mean, and he mixed up all the languages.
Speaker Sometimes he would say a French word in between the German or Italian or whatever.
Speaker But finally he made himself understood very well, very well. It felt like charm people to. Oh, yes, a lot. I mean, he was mid person.
Speaker That's how he was.
Speaker Not that he told you that, Jimmy, that he wanted to marry Jimmy, but she said no.
Speaker Well, at one point he wasn't sure he wanted to get married at all, you see, because, I mean, the occasions where multiple he got married a lot of girls, but he didn't want to settle down except towards the end after his passport was taken his back or he was trying to think differently about his future.
Speaker But he told me once, yes, he told me once that he if he married someone, it would have been Jimmy.
Speaker And why do you think he didn't or do you think he would have if he'd lived?
Speaker I think he was afraid he was afraid to to attach himself, you know, to be sort of bound to lead the. A kind of life that he really didn't want to or he didn't want to. How shall I say that? He wasn't made to to to be married. I mean, he was a single person. He loved to be surrounded by friends, girls and lots of people, but to attach himself down someplace with somebody, I think he was really afraid of it.
Speaker Interesting. Do you have a date?
Speaker Why would he be afraid just because he wanted to to to run his life as he pleased to?
Speaker That's all right.
Speaker OK, um, I'm just looking over, OK, so then let's come to kind of the last part of the story. Mm hmm. Um.
Speaker Japan and Vietnam, I guess the first question about it is I've read in different people's other people's interviews that he was a bit depressed at this time when he went to Japan.
Speaker Yes, he was depressed because he didn't see a future of Magnum very, very clearly.
Speaker And he was sort of tired of thinking for other people, let's say, and taking over everybody's burden. So he wanted to get rid of that and, you know, trying to have a little air for for himself.
Speaker And he thought that this trip to Japan would be it, you know, it would help him escape from all this and maybe also try to we say in French fairly.
Speaker You know, to.
Speaker Well, I don't know how to say what. How can you translate that?
Speaker No, no, it's not making.
Speaker The point is no, it's more like, you know, looking at the positive negative things and trying to find the right way and what direction where to, you know, to design, make them take things like that and also what to do with his own personal life.
Speaker You see whether he wanted to go on shooting stories, whether he wanted to go traveling because he was still suffering a little bit from from his back. So he wasn't sure he would be strong enough to go on, as he used to do before. So all this, you know, had him think that perhaps this trip in Japan would be.
Speaker The thing to do, did he think he was getting back in? And the second word was, OK, OK, but you had a problem. OK, OK.
Speaker OK, sorry.
Speaker OK, so I love what you were saying about, you know, I guess what I'm looking for is I think he was so bogged down in all the business and finally he was getting back to work.
Speaker Yes. Yes, that's right.
Speaker And also, he was happy to get some recognition, you know, for his work in Japan.
Speaker He was when he arrived, he had such a big reception like his hero, which he was in the sense.
Speaker So that that was, I think, very helpful for his morale, you know.
Speaker But let me just go back to what you said before, because we have some problems with the choices he was thinking about, because you were very good the way you said that. You could say that.
Speaker I don't remember. Well, you know, should I. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't think I can do it again.
Speaker I'll ask a direct question then. What were the choices I had in front of him in terms of how to carry on his life?
Speaker At that time, it's very difficult for me to say, but he he could go in several directions, he could settle down. He was thinking of settling down. But, you know, being just the head of Magnum in Paris or in New York wasn't sufficient for him because he needed to move. And he thought he couldn't get enough of that. And he was used to, you know, move around. And he was actually tired of carrying all the burdens of Magnum on his shoulders, although there were other people to take care of that eventually. But finally, people turned always to him because he was the father of Magnum, father, creator of Magnum. But anyway, he thought of picking up maybe moving pictures.
Speaker New. Because he had a long exchange of letters with some outfit in New York of which I don't remember the name about making video films, and he used to tell me, I just don't know how I could ask my photographers to take still photographs and at the same time shoot a film, a moving picture. So he said, I haven't found a way yet, but eventually maybe I will. So he was maybe thinking of doing himself some moving pictures. I don't know.
Speaker I think dude from the world video company.
Speaker Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know much about that.
Speaker We don't need to talk about that. OK, so he's in Japan and then what happened?
Speaker Well, before he went to Japan, I, I'd like to tell you one anecdote. He used to call me whenever he went someplace to pack up for him. You see, so I used to pack his suitcases.
Speaker He would prepare everything he needed on his bed and I would come up and he would say, I need this and this and that, and don't forget this and don't forget that and go ahead. So I used to do that. And in five minutes I used to pack for him and he was very happy because everything was very well done. Everything was in there. It was nicely done. And OK.
Speaker So he calls me up to the Lancaster where he was staying before he went to Japan. He said, Susie, come up, I'm going to back pretty soon, I said, OK, I'll be there in a few minutes. So I was to the hotel.
Speaker In the morning with the mail and I arrived in his room. Found the suitcase locked up. So I said, well, Bob, what did you do, did you do the work yourself?
Speaker She said, Yes, yes, I'm all packed up.
Speaker So to me, it was very, very, very, very strange that he would pack up his own things at once like that, you know, without waiting for me. And it clicked. So I said, OK, you don't media watch back, we need me, I was back to the office, so no, no, wait for me. We walk down to the office together. So we went down and for a long while he wouldn't say a word. And I won't say a word either. I mean, we didn't have to speak. And at one point he said, oh, I hate walls. I hope I will never get into a war again, I just lost war, I'm through with war pictures. I don't want to hear of wars anymore.
Speaker That's all finished.
Speaker I said, OK, there was no mention of going to Vietnam in those days, I said, but Japan is no war in Japan at this moment. You don't have to go to war again. He said, no, no, no. I mean, I want to do something different.
Speaker So what?
Speaker And my feeling was that having parked by himself saying to me this.
Speaker It it meant something dreadful. I knew that something dreadful would happen.
Speaker I didn't know what, and it wasn't even so clear in my conscience, but I knew that. Maybe I wouldn't see him again, and I never did.
Speaker And did you know before you heard about his death that, you know, you've gone from Japan to Vietnam?
Speaker Yes, yes. Because when we left for Budapest, there was already some negotiations going on with Life magazine when I heard about Dave Duncan and such a work and the will that we heard about that and what we were hoping that he wouldn't go to Vietnam. But finally, the call was too big. You know, he couldn't resist it. So he went.
Speaker Why was the cost of big one didn't want to go to war because he also felt that he was useful in showing, you know, in pictures what war was like, and that war should end in the in the world. At one point, he would want to show the horror of it.
Speaker So that was one more war, that one too many for him. Just one too many.
Speaker What would you expect of a man like him? He wouldn't die of old age in events. I mean, you can think of it. You can imagine Bob dying in bed from old age. It was impossible dying during the war, you know, getting a bullet or jumping from a parachute and landing badly, all that. I mean, that was understandable and expectable some at some point, you know, when we heard he was going some places where it was dangerous, we always thought, my God, he's going to to to to die there. But fortunately, he didn't. And. Dying like this, you know, stepping on the mind, it's just awful. For a man like him, it's just awful, but I think that lying in his bed from old days would have been even more miserable.
Speaker That's interesting, you're not the only person who said that actually a number of people have said it, but again, dying.
Speaker Forty one, you never thought he would die so young. He had so many other things to do. He had so many other plans, for instance, he had a good plan for for me at Magnum, which never turned out to be true. He wanted me at the time. I was sort of selling pictures all over Europe. You know, I was supervising that. And he wanted to take me to all the agents in Europe, you know, to make a European tour of all the agents so that we could work out something useful and great for selling pictures in Europe.
Speaker All that. And he even told me before he went to Japan, why don't you try to sort of, you know, make yourself at will, sort of some sort, because we're going to some places where I want you to look nice and I want to take you out to.
Speaker So my mother being a seamstress and I'm loving to dress up, you know, I sort of both material in the shop, which was very, very hard to say that sophisticated near the Magnum office where they sold exclusive material.
Speaker And I went there and bought a lot of things and my mother do it and I was all ready to go. And this happened.
Speaker Now, I saw a letter that your husband wrote to cover on May 21st, just four days before Kevin died, and he said in the letter, I hope you're enjoying Japan.
Speaker Yes. And that that was just before we went to to Hungary.
Speaker We were the first French journalist to be allowed to go to obtain a visa to go to Budapest. And we sort of cheated a little bit about, you know, what we wanted to do in Hungary, which was a real Magnum's story. We said to the authorities that we wanted to cover the football match between England and Hungary, which was the first match taking place after the war between Tufo and, I mean, European countries.
Speaker So in light of that, we were granted the visa, so we departed. But as we sort of couldn't get the visa early enough to get to Budapest to shoot the match. So we arrived there.
Speaker We pretended we were there already and, you know, 24 hours before, but the authorities knew that we hadn't arrived at the right time. But anyway, we sort of managed to get permission to photograph a few places that were taking us. You know, the authorities were taking us. We had to rent a car to have an interpreter and whatnot. So it cost us a lot of money. But fortunately, we made friends with a Swiss journalist and we shared the expenses. So all three of them went underground with with the Hungarian interpreter at this time that, you know, that I was from Norwegian. So I heard everything they said. And it was very useful to know exactly how we stood with them, you see. But I wouldn't open my mouth Gillion.
Speaker Eventually they found out, but it didn't really bother us with that, except that when we wanted an extension of Visa, we weren't granted it.
Speaker That's just going to go back a little bit. Yes, I I'd love you to talk about the letter, that last letter that you received from Cappa.
Speaker Well, then before we went, as you said, John wrote a little note and I wrote him a long report on what was happening with Magnum, the sailors and all that.
Speaker And we sent him the letter.
Speaker And I don't know how the letter got to him, but it got to him somehow and he answered back. I was so surprised because the letter he wrote I found when I got back from Hungary and at that time we had already heard he would he was dead. So it was terrible for us to find that the only one letter that was written to us with his own handwriting, you know, right after his death, I mean, this was just we were devastated. Absolutely.
Speaker Were you at the funeral?
Speaker No, no, I wasn't. No, no, no. I'm going to go back to something I forgot to ask you earlier about clothes and Kevin's relationship to clothes. Did he love.
Speaker Oh, he loved clothes. And in fact, when he died, I inherited of a suitcase which was full of ski clothes. And I think I still have one of those red shirts because he was mad about red. So am I. And he wore red shirts all the time to go to Cita to crusties skiing or whatever state or wherever he went.
Speaker And he was very, very fond of, you know, very nice clothes and all that.
Speaker And how did you dress?
Speaker I would say who would dress casually, you know, with a. He never really dressed up in this three, you know, buttoned up jacket or anything like that. He was kind of casual about about that, but everything was was good quality and even, you know, more than that.
Speaker Where did you go to his apartment after you had died? Which apartment is apartment or not apartment? Hotel?
Speaker Like, yes, when Cornell came, I went with him and that's how Cornell took some things.
Speaker And I inherited that suitcase with the ski clothes with which Cornell didn't know what to do about, you know. So I took the suitcase and I took another piece of of what you call that, you know, the guys in the Marine had these big bags, blue bags. He had one like this and he had another luggage which was folding, you know, in which you could put the the pants and the jackets and everything I had inherited of that. And I inherited the cosset.
Speaker Which wasn't something very, very. I was happy about that.
Speaker Anyway, that's how I did, that's how it happened. Can you give me just.
Speaker List, because it seems to me that pretty much all his worldly possessions were in that room. So perhaps you could just give a list of what was left of his things that you found and you sort of did just.
Speaker Yes, but I don't think I could remember anything else because Cornell was there and I let him do what he thought fit to do. And he just left with me what he didn't want to take back with him to the states. That's all I can say.
Speaker But just again, the same things that you said, but if you could just, you know, what we found were horses.
Speaker Yes, well, in the suitcase there were these two white sweatshirts. There were two ski pants. There were some. And there were, you know, long as you call them.
Speaker Yes. And how do you call these things? To attach pants with suspenders? Lots of them. Beautiful ones. Funny ones, which we kept for a long, long time at home.
Speaker And as I said, the shirts I wore them until they were falling apart. You see, they were going to pieces because I wouldn't let them go. I mean, and socks. Red Sox, again, you know, to wear with the ski shoes, and I still have one of those socks, the other one was just nothing but holes.
Speaker And do you have anything else that you'd like to say about Kaputt for any part of the time that you knew him?
Speaker Good time with Buffalo, just wonder if there's any anything that because I've finished my question, so, yes, anything that you would like to add that I haven't thought about or anything you would like to say about him?
Speaker Well, I would like to say that he was a man who would do anything he could for people in need.
Speaker Anything he could he would try to do.
Speaker And if for some people that he knew were in bad need, he would ask for help from America, you see for us, for instance, after the war, he found us in such a bad shape that he sent a letter to Durah saying, send them whatever you can round up because they are in need of everything. And she did.
Speaker And also, they they sent over one of these brothers who were stationed in Fontainebleau who used to come with bags of supplies for us, you see. And this was a suggestion. And he knew our interest in theater, movies, ballet dancing, dancing in general, etc., so he would just drag me wherever he went. And that's how I met a lot of people. I lunched with Gene Kelly, Betty Blair, who was his wife at the time. Anatole Litvak, senior chaplain Bubblish. I mean, all of his friends were there. And I was so thrilled. You know, I couldn't say a word when I was across the table from these people, but I was so thrilled I could be there. And this is the kind of man he was. He would drag me everywhere we see him, everywhere he was lunching at Izidor come along. He would take me away from whatever I was doing. And I would say to him, listen, I have to go to this place. I have a date. No, no. It's more important for you to meet these people. Come along. So I went and he knew I wanted we sort of played with the idea that, you know, maybe I could do some something in the movies. Who knows? So I mentioned this to him once, but jokingly. And. During that lunch with no, it was a milestone that time I heard him, I overheard I wasn't listening, but I overheard him saying to my son, do me a favor.
Speaker Tell the little girl you can have something for her. So my son applied and at the end of the meal, he said to me, don't worry, I'll think about you.
Speaker Never did, of course, but I mean, you know, that was the kind of thing he would do for people.