Speaker Well, in 1967, a huge march against the war in Vietnam.

Speaker And I covered the whole thing and I had finished on my road, I was going back to the airport and I have no more film and I walked. By the snipers falling, here was the girl facing bayonet sitting and acting, you know, like if she could hammer trying to catch her, look at the soldiers and just a we are more afraid of her because they were young. They didn't know what the hole was ordered not to look at such a girl.

Speaker Suddenly people are walking up with something if it's not severe. OK, just tell me and speak again. Speeding. Hey, two to marker.

Speaker OK, maybe just briefly to say again about of what you're saying about who is more scared than home, so.

Speaker Back up in a little bit of history, and this was the huge March on October 21st, 1967 in Washington, several hundred thousand people, mostly young boys and girls, black and white, marched very peacefully against war in Vietnam.

Speaker I marched all day with then photographing all day, then it night falling. I had finished my film. Only one hole in my camera put them in the back. When I passed by and saw the scene going on, this girl, a young girl trying to catch.

Speaker Hogar, as we say in the look of this young soldier holding a bayonet, and he seemed to be more potent than the girl, and she got like a second hammer.

Speaker At one point, she dropped the flower in front, turning to the soldier, go ahead, step on the floor. If you are to do that, step on the floor. And he was shaking and I kept shooting pictures of all of that.

Speaker And might and the last frame of May last from this picture, I walked to the airport, but Kapa. Covid war known for covering wars. China, Spanish and World's Second World War, he did not like war and this war, this long march against Vietnam and he would have thought of over and he would have loved this beautiful girl. That was great, because that was my next question.

Speaker OK, my next question is going to be, could Kapper have taken this picture? This be couple would have wanted to photograph?

Speaker Well, you know, a different time, different style of photography, different. Nothing is the same. I don't mean you should trust what I say. You would have liked very much this happening.

Speaker What's interesting to hear you say, because the photographed more. Why do you think he photographed war, what do you think his motivation was?

Speaker He was. Difficult, I don't know, but he loved photographing, he loved photography in action.

Speaker When he was in New York, after all those problems probably had in the papers and thought the war was on, how could he do anything other than to cover the war? And he wanted to be the first always on the first line, and maybe he was taking pictures if he was ignoring the danger or not at all. I think he was he had a very intelligent courage, but it was first on the D-Day and he was first jumping in parachute in Italy and Germany. He loved life above all, loved women, but he loved it, so it was great.

Speaker Where did he love no more? OK, about not very important is he love OK. She.

Speaker OK, now not just faces a long life, after all. And you always wanted to save his life, but to be closer to the to the fighters, to the to the war.

Speaker And do you think he was trying to affect the war by photographing it and again, you won't hear my question.

Speaker So, yeah, why he photographed the war? I think partly I would say he wanted to show how awful the war was, not only for those fighters side, but for the civilians. And if you look at all his pictures, there's a lot about the people, civilian women, children, even in Vietnam, two weeks before he died and in Chillum.

Speaker And like you love to photograph children, do you think he was the first photo journalist to show the human face of war like that, the civilian population?

Speaker I don't think it was a 30 second clip and. And it's not just these pictures, it is is. Are we facing life now? He was facing people, friends and the stories is the story of his life and relation with who is right with with woman and. Extraordinary continuity.

Speaker In his life. When did you first cover the whole. OK, is it shaking for me? OK, I'm not going to move. OK.

Speaker Well. Sometimes it's hard to win, but obviously it isn't, everybody's got to settle. I mean, you know, I was trying to join Magnum. I had met a couple of times. Oh, he got hit by someone because I had a brother who was in love with his sister and I was trying to take pictures. I was young and I showed pictures to all other by someone. I do told me, no, no, don't become a photographer. You are an engineer. You have a good job photography. No, no, no. Stay where you are. Then I kept taking pictures and I went to see him game and one day he told me I let go and see. Bob copper gap, we copper. I had to that the only person who could say something about me, Magnum I. So cut by maybe a bit for five minutes, showed your pictures and. With a big tent, OK, come along with us and you know, today to join Magnum, you have to be voted in on a succession of difficult stages.

Speaker Then he told me, well, you know, I was born in LA. I was coming straight from you. I was a shy boy, couldn't speak English. Well, all I didn't know the world of photographers.

Speaker And in all this, he could see it one time after I wondered how and why CAPTA had an attention even with me could bring nothing to L.A. he told me, you better go to London. You will see girls and you will learn English. OK, I went to London. I did not see girls, I did not learn English, but for all winter I took many, many pictures which are not very good for me now. But and when I was in London. Get my was moving all the time to New York and London, every time in London, I've got a call from my office to meet him at the hotel and. I was thinking that he would give a pretty good editors of the picture, Posen of the U.S. would come to see, you know, today the head of an agency that go into the template. And I remember something like in March, April 1944, Len Spooner came Yotel, and he was preparing the anniversary, 10th anniversary of D-Day for May 44 at 54. And he was said, I have your picture for the cover.

Speaker You take my picture of black and white, other people landing like. And I said, but, Bob, it's not possible, we have just started to use color on the cover. We cannot use black and white. That's even better. Is it because you use color all the time? You will use black and white with my picture for this terribly important day for you. After all, Kaibab will do it. Then I was there listening to that.

Speaker Then he said, Look, this is Mark, a photographer for me, always shy and not said a word. You shouldn't give him some work. And he said I said, but Bob, we don't know him.

Speaker We don't know his pictures. I can tell you he can work. And we just said we have nothing to offer. We are just finishing a series on the best and the worst of British cities. There's one left to be done. Leeds got exactly.

Speaker Leeds is a sad city. Mark from this inside the city of New Orleans. Should be very good for that.

Speaker And and I was given the assignment that it's the only time I've been given all the other people I met in Magnum before never like a job. And interestingly, I the day I came to give my pictures of Leeds to lend Spooner. I think, you know, kabbadi it and Bishop also. And so, you know, I don't know if he actually said, but I did not see any plane crash. Because I could see capitalizing on it in a plane crash, she was in London. At before. He left, he was in London, not at the Pastoria, he was at the Dorchester. He asked me to come and see in.

Speaker I had even told me the hotel room number, I got to that room number.

Speaker Knock at the door Nobody answered, the door was open.

Speaker And not again, and you hear a voice come in, I got into the room, nobody, and I heard somebody having a bath and he asked me to come, it was, I think is often now, but in the morning and I.

Speaker He started to talk to me and I don't remember everything, but I remember very precisely him telling me photography is Finnish.

Speaker The future is TV. And a few of the things. And you know, for me tonight, for me, Kapa. Already there an. And talking to so I was a young kid. I knew nothing of the World Cup, and I remember you got lucky to a thing and you made a telephone call. To life office in London, and because he was going to Tokyo, partly invited by some Japanese and also life office in New York, I understood because on the phone I remember the sentence you said, I'm going for your Nobel magazine in Tokyo. He was leaving the next day. You know that he's never had any place to live. Yeah, everything being only in hotels and with girlfriends and nobody knows exactly what's in the hotel. But when he died, he left to seats, to church to go out and to that. But he would never let leave somebody poisoned in London. I was staying with some friend of mine and at one point I needed money and money and from the very difficult to control the money. And Capa said to somebody, please tell somebody we don't need to be one day at three, 30 p.m. at the a subway station and coming down next to such a place at. And indeed, I was there. I mean, they were too funny, God giving me some cash and, you know, he had a fantastic memory, but Middle Eastern way of doing things and we just would never let down, you wouldn't remember at Mangum. And, you know, there was sometimes some cash problem and it would destroy other people. You know, no nothing lasts. No money. So, yes, the accountant to give him all the penny, little change left on the door. And he took it and he went to the wrong place and gambled. And and one and put it back. So imagine it's not the exact way that the business can keep going, but he could call anybody when he. It's not that he was not especially proud to be a friend of Steinbeck, Hemingway, they were kind of cupper. And when I went to London to learn English, you know, it reminded me of the Hemmingway said Cupper couldn't speak French of English. He spoke Japanese. And, you know, today we speak about politically like it is the opposite of the politically correct. You was so much better in human being lively, aren't you saying? What do you think? You wrote very well. This book slightly out of focus, and I think all his life was slightly out of focus because he. I think it made always, always some to something on all stories exaggerating, making them special and not just banal journalistic report. Or whether it is the queen of Holland was touring the he was among a photographer for the magazine allowed to follow the ICJ judgment at one point. The bodyguard and according to the queen, other than to leave them alone, the queen Kapa pretended there that the queen made it could go to him and then they stayed and and he remained for one day, two days, an important piece which entitled The Queen and I and. Of him traveling with the Queen Holland and everything like. The book's title, yet the focus of this war. It is not all true, but it's more tools and the tools, and I believe that most people who have a kind of report, according to every come on every parent and every word moving, and it comes out of nothing.

Speaker Milo, excuse me, I speak, you know, this is great, it's really wonderful what you're saying, but somebody is talking about their frustration. OK, Margaret.

Speaker So, Mark, I have to interrupt your for a sec to talk about a connection that I was thinking about between you and Kapa, about I read that you were very shy and you barely spoke as a boy.

Speaker And Cappa, when he left Hungary, spoke a language that nobody understood. And I think it's interesting that you both chose photography as a way to tell your stories, if you like.

Speaker I mean, let's be honest. I have nothing to do in the way of how I began with an how I photographed all my life, nothing but they would be in a circle that then I would be ideal opposite. It doesn't mean that I.

Speaker I think a lot of kapa. Of his personality approach to life, you know, at that time, we were not talking about photography. I would never talk to me about photography and now learned. The only thing which I remembered, it would seem to photography to photographers is a photo of a not good enough.

Speaker It's because you are not close enough to simply. But at that time, they were no award, there were no exhibitions, no photo Dostoevski with the first one, a decisive moment of Goalkeeper's. And, you know, when I would meet them and all the great photographers of the time, they would speak about the place where they'd been about the revolution they have covered, about the good restaurant, all the beautiful girls, about life and the world, very concerned about the world, what's going on in the world. Making money, I remember even making most money with gardening after money after cash, and also the big, big thing which got bought by creating Mangrum is to be independent. And this is probably unconsciously for me what I try to follow, what was my instinct to be independent, independent of political parties who are in the country. I went through South Vietnam and then I went to North Vietnam just by curiosity to be independent. I was in exile, Connel, Copouts and me, and it made longer coverage for the 25th anniversary side in exile. And I went through the country's back and forth. And I thought, how could I remember that in the lesson of photography, when you have to photograph an object, the first thing is to go around. If it's an egg, you have to look around how it looks from all the sides. A country is the same thing you have to go how to do different angles, different sides, but independence from the magazine was the main purpose of creating Magnum, and they wanted to have the rights of your pictures. You have no idea the consequence of that, which means that we're working not only for Life magazine or look, but for themselves not to make them either, but for themselves, they keep the right to publish afterwards. When in 65, I was offered Trenyce a big lump of money at that time from National Geographic for China. Eight thousand dollar at that time, and I choose that not because it was not for money, but because I thought I would not be able to fulfill and the caption there, you know, looking like accountant, the truth of everything. And also they would keep you right for a year before I would choose. And I finally stayed for months. And I know it was published and I made at least four or five times more than I know. But then. Anyway, then. When I was. Magnum. I don't see any flecks of independence up to one day I became independent and keeping best friends with a photographer. It was tough on me. At the beginning. But I started I was doing what I liked and I realized that. It was a good way for me anyway. Kaputt was, of course, a great independent. You know, where you do love affair, you will never keep happily together, even with the man she banged in, she was going to do all types. And no, I'm not I'm not many men today. I had. And I remember. Mangham office in Paris was downstairs at Bistro Call less than four percent tonight, and I remember. But that was my and close hand and the bond was only and then I was it it was there was a girl and Kapa. Don't know, and I don't remember being when we were in New York in a bar and you started to call my wife and he was all turned to is and you see what he said that I was trying to quote, but. He had a sense of humor. He had a sense, which is a real sense of life. And but when he was here in London, the Pistoia or elsewhere, he was. Receiving the memo of John Morrison over the head of Magnum in New York and I, everything that was trying to answer every point, every photographies for me or the photographer much. More important than me, much more competent. One of them was in my heart and in my heart would have been marvelous to talk about Kapa. She was beautiful. She was too beautiful. The last time I saw it, three weeks, two months ago. And the. She was assistant events assistant of Kathy Bates, and this is how she came close to capture, and Capa, of course, adored her. And the. You know, I think photography has a lot to do with beauty. Anyway, personally, I prefer to photograph the beauty and ugliness. And indeed, I don't like to photograph violence, but love and beauty and you can see this photograph, I think some people would tend to say that he is an adventurer. He was an adventurer, but didn't do a great sense anyway. It was an adventure. And Lucky got beautiful faces. Beautiful woman. He has even some. A photograph of a landscape even. He loved the hospitality of poor people because he loved to drink. It's a bit like Google, you know, and you drink well, I know in it well. It would take people along the state if this is how you would make people, it would love to meet people. I mean, news that poor of the people and more hospital know they are.

Speaker I'd love to gamble also. He was a gambler. It's true all his life. But you never cheated.

Speaker This argument about. The Sutro, the Spanish War. Especially in England, that book. A guy who spent years of his life, I don't know, he's trying to prove this was his. Pictures that it was. St.. I know that by people had been living who do not even have to say anything. You know, anybody who knew him would never it would not even have the time, energy to stage a thing like that. So and it is really and that's an insult to somebody who pulled all Islam, that it was courageous. On the is it sure is. Eight hundred colleges and two. And some time when it is slightly out of focus. I personally think it is close and the tooth. Made me think, you know, Malvo and once in interview, one of which was noted to you, hoped that this interview. The falling off is what somebody had to tell you, and now all of this complains that this had nothing to do with the autos and they were Patrick, there were some words that were shooting and it would be a new mode. It was towards the truth. But for the last week, it was. Know those stories to us and the troops in the war and peace. And I think. To put his image of Qatar is a very important thing for us.

Speaker And young people.

Speaker I'm young. Yes, absolutely. Younger than most people are interviewing, and we must to you're not a nobody can write like kid. And, you know, it's like the focus is going to be published in France and my wife translated from English to French and I had to read it and I help her on.

Speaker Photography, the.

Speaker And to be deeply involved in this book, he needs so much, not so much about the war, so much about it, a great human being, a great novelist and.

Speaker What does the book what does the book reveal about?

Speaker Mainly. A sense of humor, a sense of life and sense of building up so it know indeed, like you make a movie, you concentrate at film and movie, which will. Should absolute somebody get the most boring, a great actors and great characters, but no, yet a sense to make. A no action story meeting. I thought, you know, and passionately. Interesting with Uma. With. Healing to the truest thing you cannot invent, something happened to and the obvious thing which is likely to focus on for the good of it.

Speaker Somebody once said to me when I first started on this project that the only time I told the truth was in his photographs.

Speaker Well, obviously, a photograph cannot lie. It can be closer. Can be.

Speaker No. I think he.

Speaker We showed you a photograph, what he had seen, and indeed he heard the first in Berlin, he was first. Many places landing, and he photographed the best he could. And.

Speaker I like going in play about.

Speaker I have to wonder what it would mean, you know, I was thinking today people you always said, do you have an idea for this story? We are dealing with ideas. And it was dealing with life with. Wanted to be close, but when he was in South Hadley and these pictures in south Italy and Sicily and the ongoing thing and all these.

Speaker She was not lying there. Do you have a favorite about pictures?

Speaker No, I discovered one, uh. All the time, I cannot say no other place which come to mind, as I said the day, but. You will see the French edition of the. I tend to focus the ABC pictures, which are not known before, and which is not only for the war.

Speaker You know, at this.

Speaker What cap in France mending with so many people, you. You may find not long ago it a concierge about a bomb on a encaged ladies, hey it. These are not marvelously she knew him well. And there are people in the morning, people. Cornell, as all his life has been after the death of his brother, Doug, the only to.

Speaker Memory of by. Starting ICP.

Speaker I think we all in I mean, go back and go now. So not.

Speaker You could talk maybe a little bit about Cornell sort of rescuing these photographs of people like Cappa, because you were telling me earlier that, you know, they were not included or published or whatever before except maybe talk about Pernell's, the work that he's done to change that. Well, go now.

Speaker He's a quiet person first.

Speaker What I did for a cadaver, for photography, for photojournalism is immense. There was not. It happening not in a war, not a thing. In America, without being at.

Speaker In developing. And without him knowing all the time and respect photography of photojournalism. The prize Gopala of Boehland and.

Speaker Meanwhile, a man a month ago living in the same small flat, dusty, with a very old fashioned telephone and with piles of books in a room on time with. I mean, somebody of his class, so he's a Kinman. You would never imagine. Nothing has changed the lives we could enter flat like it was in 1945, something like that.

Speaker Finally, because of the health of his wife. As to move to a last. Very look at all of which seem to be various stages.

Speaker Absolutely right, and that is just what it looks like, it's changed.

Speaker But it shows that. He lived for. Photography photojournalist. And the. We're very direct. To make choice to wait for.

Speaker I want to go back to this jumping around a bit, but you mentioned Capone was a gambler and I'd love it if you talk a little bit about. How he gambled not just in the casinos, but he was gambling with all these wars that he was photographing. What do you think made him risk his life so many times?

Speaker Well, you know, yes, when I wonder we wondered why Karpov is a gambler. He was. Yes, I think, you know, I always thought that Densher.

Speaker Attracted us like a woman. We.

Speaker If we are at war, if we are. Experiences in South Vietnam. You hear the parts of the plane and yet none for. Following the. You are talking physically like.

Speaker By a beautiful woman, and you want to be closer, you want to see it. You want to win something to win is to be closer. And the first and I think this is what a gambler is.

Speaker But there have been many gambler, a mediocre statue, and it was a gargantuan. And the last gamble that he took.

Speaker Yeah, OK, you know what, it is good. OK.

Speaker And Mark.

Speaker So we were talking about I love what you said about. The seductiveness of war.

Speaker But I don't really understand it. I don't really understand. I think it was a great description, but where is it going with the competition? Is it excitement? Is it adrenaline? Is it? Is it because of being a from for wanting to get the best picture? What makes you so attracted to to that?

Speaker Well. You know, Foynes, mountain climbing. Not in timing is very dangerous. I did some. One of the.

Speaker What thing is that you are always often at the edge of the precipice and you hang to your fingers. You get to the top, the top is your guys and stuff. But why do you do that? It's true. It is in the Chinese. I come back, I've been to some Chinese mountain that a totally different conception of mountain climbing. They consider you climbing a mountain for the sake of the beauty of you.

Speaker So they make steps they carved into granite the steps.

Speaker They put an iron gate of a chain so that you don't have to worry at all about the danger and the difficulty of the climbing. And the Mountain Time, it's a. It's not the secret mountain, it's only a devotion of duty. Well. Danger in many feel like jumping parachute. I know people have over 18 year old to jump into action and they find this an extraordinarily lovely, extraordinary thing in extraordinary impression when I was 14. For what kind of impression? With an impression of catastrophe and this feeling.

Speaker And to see the planet coming to you as could speak.

Speaker And all sorts of support then show you go near them, win this war. I don't mean war is a sport, but there is definitely a danger. I have never been like a cop out, but I get in Bangladesh, Vietnam, because, well. It's this world of competition, this maybe instinctively something which indeed is happening and to be closer to action, to do more and time because. War photography can be something very beautiful and capture as many very beautiful photographs like in Spain. And people fleeing. We're going to France and another thing. But then should. Is the limit to die, is the limit to go closer to that? I don't mean I understand why you do that, but it's a fact why we are attracted. By women, explain this. Yes, it's well known, but. Beauty. You know, I can always close my eyes in front of violence, people were tortured and the people who photograph a Pulitzer Prize, but I quit and in the state there is a wounded in me. Even my son is 18 years old. You look at the scene of violence and I close my eyes. Even I can't see a section. But then we have this problem of the problem of Densher. It's a fact Gappah was gambling to get closer, and it was not naive. It was not foolish. It was intelligent. And in many sentences here that he's ready to get close but not ready to be killed. And he was killed, run by anybody in Vietnam, in Cambodia. I could step on it a night, but.

Speaker Do you know the circumstances of his death, the details of his death?

Speaker Yes, well, no, I think it's about Norman. You're not in North Vietnam. So to deny the French were doing some patrolling on and they were a little worried about where the group was. French troops advancing in some there's a little bit on the right and left of the but in the tide out high speed.

Speaker And he went aside to photograph. The people were safely there. But she was this where all these large pictures are those people walking by, not taking any steps on a mine.

Speaker You know, there are more people dying of stepping on mine today, that ordinary death in Cambodia and even in Vietnam because the mines were put on by both side by side with the needs of the Khmer and by the American side of South Vietnam, signed with no plan of mine.

Speaker And those mines still explode three days ago. And Gaviota. So some 18 years old boy with No.

Speaker Only one leg and another one is not going to get a picture with no leg at all and no money to get a facelift and walking and like, sits on the counter. And he died not of gambling. Danja.

Speaker Tibble baduk.

Speaker Do you think that I know that Howard Sawchuk replaced, yeah, felt guilty because he felt maybe cappa, you know, knew how to protect himself and the other wards, but this was a different war. Maybe he wasn't as knowledgeable about the danger, but is he still alive?

Speaker Fortunately not. Not the all wars have been different. I could not and said before I was not there, but I don't think the war. He was complaining, Kapa. This is his last messages that there was nothing to photograph, no action, no war.

Speaker And he was depressed because he. Nothing to photograph.

Speaker You mentioned your article, I read an interview with you, the couple was depressed the last time you saw him a bit depressed about the situation with photography.

Speaker No, I told you. I mean, in boy, he was. But the party is what I said. He told me that there was no future for photography, but TV was a kind of a joke. But at that point, TV was there and he was interested on TV. They would. Today, an exhibition boat gallery sells of prints, no idea at that point, and this is a new thing. But not a new thing, a new way to photograph. The photojournalist and documentary. I've gone through a very difficult because mainly because there is no much outlet. For those photographs, the magazine ready to publish them are very cute because magazines sell when they publish beauty girls and so forth.

Speaker I'd love to talk a little bit about your group. It's a good time to teach.

Speaker Yes, I think. Is great adventure, collective adventure with the occasional magnum. And it was to get away from.

Speaker The clients and.

Speaker LifeLock would keep the rights of the photo up, so they got together and I think it was a great moment of photography because after the war and forty seven. The Simao began, at no time did their own personality, which developed. And some very different people got together when you think that cappa a within Cartier-Bresson.

Speaker Zoologist Roger. David Seabaugh shib.

Speaker And the.

Speaker I think they all they were so different, they were. Coming from different horizons. And, you know, we've forgotten we are all very individualistic. We don't like to belong to some people said is a family in a way, yes. And obviously, father, the family was Coupa, but many of you said, no, I'm just not able to.

Speaker Anyway, one of the reasons, which really means it's a sort of something, is to watch the quarrel in the middle of this family, of this and the and problem and you know it as some divorce and getting back together and splitting and.

Speaker Roger, Roger Vinson.

Speaker He covered some war, but he was mainly a sort of gentleman. Our magnificent traveler traveled all around, I think all of Asia, all those British, I would say, but the hard truth is that he's in any place of the world with queen, king and peasants the same way. There's a picture of this picture of George Roger with Capa. They look both like. To Playboy's boys, I'm sure they have the same kind of play boys and. There were some she was marvelous, marvelous man and. And very far and very precise, very orderly, very.

Speaker Good to people also. But he didn't speak loud and, you know, I said modest and.

Speaker Oh, he got hit by some. Highways often bursting into cold air, hired something, but it would go and complain to cut.

Speaker But this is what I was watching, as if cat but the master of this class and he got but I didn't get the money. I woke up. I didn't get the.

Speaker And there are some marvelous letters, there are places where people think some pictures were not well distributed enough, some people thought that this photograph, the Arab countries, you are not distributed as well as what you would call it is there was and and all of this was resolved and but this happened. And this was a microcosm there with some anti-Americanism on the French side. And there was some American election to this and all this.

Speaker I often talk in and I and a lot of other mangham as a kind of microcosm, a small microcosm, all the tension of the world.

Speaker That was, as I understand it, they divided up the world. You remember their territories?

Speaker Well, I don't forget that to some people. Yes, South Africa. But other people went to Africa. I went to Africa. And but I think when you think of Charles, obviously, you know, the French lemon you have finished, he little friend, lover of Hitler, did this fantastic film on the European Game six after the war. And George, I covered the battle, the beautiful handson tall black people and any other star hotel.

Speaker I'm sure I've seen your book. I see you. I would like to go to the same place. Can you help me? Showed her and said, Madame. Knowing your background and mine, we have nothing to say to each other.

Speaker OK.

Speaker Any child goes there, should die by yourself, photograph all those 30 and five or six years later. She calls results in London. They meet and they say they are. Great lady, great talent.

Speaker And how would you compare the style of consumerism with a spinal tap?

Speaker And George Roger that, Christine. I would say by some. At such an impact on photography.

Speaker In anyway, where am I going to hit is the first one we bought to photography's the idea that the image, a photographic image, should be considered with the same hole as painting and and drawing a lot of competition and.

Speaker And everybody is trying to influence everybody, Kapa, I would say it was not influence, it was Kapa speech. He was bursting in life, instinct by instinct, but I would say many pictures. Not everybody would agree with me.

Speaker They have his pictures by his instinct, a good photography. Gothe bussau. Is in France, has been great, but nobody could do like him because indeed, if at this. Drive competition. But he had a fantastic. Instinct for the instinct for the moment that this is true and nobody has been able. To put this in also has such a culture culture from the literary culture, pictorial culture is always shaped by a history of the culture. And and I think the most important thing is the way people. In a new documentary style of photography, I got out of this. It is also due to him because, you know, there is a frame and all those who got out just thinking the wall and I think especially of some young, innervating even documentary, which I admire very much.

Speaker Mark. Would you mind going back a little there was there was a massive plate or something right in the middle of that last year that unfortunately the sound. Well, we'll pick it up. But it was really great what you were saying about Russell and. I'm not sure exactly where that fell, but maybe you could just I love when you said he was the first to look at photography like a painting.

Speaker Well, not exactly like that, but yeah. Well, in fits and photography and photographers all on the book. They got it by Susan. First, because he was brought to photography, the rules, the classical rules of composition, of going and painting since the hunt itself. And but what we don't say, it was not enough to make like a cultural science innovator, extraordinary by the decisive moment, by instinct for the moment to catch the moment and is worth his total. What is so generous? He has seen so many and never were photographed, only either the poor people, the desert or such a country. Yes, as well. People from Wall Street to New York to people in Beijing to people on the frontlines. He has lived the lives so intensively and I watch this every day, going out every day, looking at. It shouldn't for life, whether it was a demonstration of a party, of an opening or portrait's. Yes, doctor. Well, nobody can imagine.

Speaker It sounds when you're talking about generosity of spirit.

Speaker That sounds like Cappato. Yes, but they are very different now, very different and.

Speaker You could say by the guy on the street who comes in in a bar and and play the gambled and I think drink.

Speaker Noise, this is what noise upstairs, what is it then? You know, I just forget. Yeah, when when you play. Heights is very well known.

Speaker The name of this game that you play with, God of poker, poker.

Speaker Are we right? Right. OK, OK, yes, I've got it.

Speaker I think both have a fascinating fascination for the other.

Speaker Extremely different.

Speaker Kathy Bates from Aristocratic Culture was at the same time getting out of this by being at least a nationalist Buddhist antico for me, but based in Baz's working life on culture. Pictorial culture, cultural, literary culture, music, cultural kapa.

Speaker I don't know if she was hiding in a book you again, but you could play poker and he would meet a beautiful woman, a.

Speaker It's the life and the characters very different values.

Speaker I think he had some fascination for him if he could find work and project or this project, because this was his life for every man, photographer like Generation Woman, Generation X generation children.

Speaker He had the idea for all the good.

Speaker Did you did you do a generation X story, not their children? Yes.

Speaker Where were the children? A girl in London. I don't think I took good pictures.

Speaker It was, I think, just after the death of Capa and Roger and seeks help finding the. I think it was by.

Speaker Well, it would be interesting to just say. I think my impression is that those stories were part of campus, of course, he was trying to get Magnum on track, but also he's trying to be generous to all the photographers. They might be nice to say something about how he tried to get work for everybody.

Speaker Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gappah.

Speaker I thought I remember we would all go to him to complain, if anything, if no job, no money, no publication. And he would listen and he would really put forward some ideas for big projects, and he was the first one by giving me a lead picture. But I remember the correspondence and I remember, oh, you with concern by the photographers individually.

Speaker That's great.

Speaker I think that my questions are mostly I would love to just once more and I'm sorry to ask you this, but Judy's telling me there was very early in our interview a lot of noise when you were talking about that picture behind you. So, again, if you if you could just tell that story again about this picture, you want to make sure because I want to start in film all edited. So that comes first.

Speaker So I want to make sure we have that good sound.

Speaker Well, the pressure is probably the one which had been. But still a lot harder in a day where hundreds of thousands of boys and girls, black and white, were marching for peace in Vietnam. In Washington.

Speaker And I was taking pictures all day, and when the end of the day came, I had no film, just the one my camera and I passed in front of this image of a girl advancing through yards and of the demonstrator with it flowing hands and approaching the soldier with the bayonet, trying to catch the.

Speaker The glance, the look of the soldier and I could see that actually the soldier was shaking because she was approaching and he didn't know what to do and he was trying the best to avoid to close his eyes. And at one point she said, well, I'm going to drop the flowers and you were going to stop to step on the flower on to. And then she took her arm like she's a cause. And it turned out this picture was the last frame of my last film and also I remember the moment it turned out that my son was born, I came back all right.

Speaker My wife told me I had a second boy boy and she was born the same day.

Speaker And then 30 years later, by a sequence of coincidence, I. I found the girl.

Speaker And I invited her to an opening and.

Speaker Nineteen ninety eight with this picture, with the big. We have this picture with a huge poster. She came with a daughter. Her name is John Rose Cashmere. She was very poor, she told me that. She knew nothing about this picture. She really liked American news at the Times, falling down very low with alcoholism and drug psychiatric hospital, suicide attempt and all of this. And finally, she got together and she had a daughter and a photographer with a daughter called Lisa. And since, you know, that's picture. Was of a certain meaning for people.

Speaker I she said, and I believe he gave a. He's in Malta to live.

Speaker So photographs can affect a life. But we never know. I mean, it's in a way she did the photos. She's the one responsible and she's the one who pulled together ourselves. But.

Speaker Autograph is just that one moment, which. Paul makes a moment more important than anything. You know how much when you have a book? Of the hundred photograph. And people are wrong, oh, my goodness. When you look at it, it takes a hundred photographs in an average of a hundredth of a second, which mean it's one second. And I made it look of China. I took 40 years of photography and I have about 60 people in the book, 100 people and one second of the. No, we should not pretend we're moving toward doing anything, we should be very. We. It's like you you keep something we register, which is something we. The way to choose a choice is as important.

Speaker Actually, all our lives we choose a place to go, we choose the day to go with choose the angle we choose to have. And after we have a father who was truly. Tonight, going back to Paris, I have to choose some pictures of Shanghai.

Speaker Of your China pictures, but it wasn't meger founded with the idea of. Trying to trying to make people in the world more aware of each other and the situations you mean Magnum itself, the philosophy of Magnum?

Speaker Not just the photographer's rights, but, yeah, I think I do think in many ways it has been successful is the independence of each individual. This is bringing should bring the best of the personality of each one that we are not working. Targets of fighting are not working to please in market, they do the pictures they choose to do individually with their own staff, and then of course, we are always entranced by them. Oh, it's a good thing that we are not we are not like our father. And this whole visual approach also and pathologies develop individually, not by.

Speaker A direction given, I think, by the top of.

Speaker So, OK, so you don't really think there's a social consciousness or just some, but what is it between market power and country by store? And I don't know, so much different. No, I think it's a very important quality. Because when you look at the other agencies, most of the time, they are owned by either a device or by financial group for which the only motivation is money, is it? And as my name is.

Speaker Owned by the photographer himself. I don't own it anymore, but it is the.

Speaker Utopia, but they need to survive.

Marc Riboud
Interview Date:
American Archive of Public Broadcasting GUID:
cpb-aacip-504-ht2g737s33, cpb-aacip-504-zp3vt1hh06
"Marc Riboud, Robert Capa: In Love and War." American Masters Digital Archive (WNET). 31 Jan. 2002,
(2002, January 31). Marc Riboud, Robert Capa: In Love and War. [Video]. American Masters Digital Archive (WNET).
"Marc Riboud, Robert Capa: In Love and War." American Masters Digital Archive (WNET). January 31, 2002. Accessed July 05, 2022


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