Speaker 1 Yeah, they said something about the royal is that a special room?
Speaker 2 No, it was it was the restaurant in the big table in France that they put the most important. Yeah, that was that way, you know, so and I explained, I think in the light of my book there in the spring of 1960 where we had a problem with Souley. So Pierre was leaving and then I left with him because we both had our jumps. And prior to that, leaving Joseph and Sergei was the sous chef and only as I was the captain there and add up and I kind of had where I think I kind of food was really pissed off, whatever, pissed off anyway. And it was at the time when when the Kennedy came, the earth came that I had. And it was the father in those life, Kennedy, who kind of run the show for it was the beginning of the, you know, the campaign. Early 1960, so they all came there and then a photographer came in and starts shooting a picture of them and. So they say to the director of restaurant, get that get that photographer out of it. And he said, Yes, sir. So, you know, it was I mean, it was sort of Kennedy with all the. His name, I mean, the men at a restaurant get that out of here and they were their own, provide you with a Republican to. But in any case, you heard that and they said at the pavilion, there is only one to decide whether people come and go out. And it's me. What do you think those people are? They think they already had the waiter out. And though we were very you know, they came here all the time. They asked for the check. They start up, they pay, and they never said back they are feeding the baby. So they went to the cabin just up. And the people of the barrier who that probably went through, they were very pissed off. And and basically that the reason why after that, John F. Kennedy again ask that it was not under the act, a restaurant they had moved there. We we need a chef for the White House. And they called me and I know really a couple of weeks and I asked him whether he had just done with him. And they asked me again and I said, I don't think so. I don't want to leave New York now. I thought they were going to Columbia. I was doing things and I had absolutely no idea of the idea of the potential of the House, rightly so, because I had been a chef to three presidents in France. I'd never been on a radio show. Television did not exist. No one ever had to have. You know, I ever came to the kitchen. No one called you for Vorkuta. If anyone came to the kitchen to yell at you, something went wrong. So, you know, it was the end of the world altogether. People don't realize that. So it's not really a friend of mine who were the sous chef at the ASX s when there and that's when Jacqueline Kennedy started taking pictures of them to. So the show, it was the only sixty woman liberation, organic gardening. You know, things were changing. But frankly, if you ask who was the chef at the White House before, I know it was a black lady from the south. No one would know no more than they knew me or whatever. It was the same thing at that point and. But who was there anyway?
Speaker 1 So that's how you start it, actually. All right. So in that one sentence, first, you know, on they
Speaker 2 came to you introduced. Do you want me to introduce myself?
Speaker 1 No, no, no, no. Thing about this is documentary. This is just a conversation between you and me. I know all these lovely ladies are distracting, but try to keep giving me an introduction. And just also keeping in mind, when you're talking about other audio, I know that's challenging, but we're going to come back around and do the cooking stuff again.
Speaker 2 So but I'm doing the stuff that
Speaker 1 we might ask you to make a couple of, you know, do a couple of things over when we get the close up. OK, OK. All right. Ready? All right. So action. So, yeah, I'm like
Speaker 2 in nineteen forty nine, The World's Fair in New York.
Speaker 1 Thirty nine.
Speaker 2 Thirty nine. Thirty nine.
Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 In 1939 by the World's Fair in New York just before the war. And I wanted to apprenticeship actually in 1949 and Bert in 1939, the whole group of France, you know, led led by Ollie Sulu, the maitre d in one of the greatest restaurants in Paris, came with a whole group of French to create that the French Pavilion restaurant at the World Trade in New York. They were making KIB there. And I'm going to make type, too. So I have about three quarters of a flower to add a couple of eggs. And what happened? There are many people who came from France. They were a young, a young chef. There could be a friend who was part of the group and, uh, you know, became a mantra of me. But basically all of those people who work at the pavilion eventually and also because of the war, many could not go back and opening a restaurant in New York up. And I kept the could back first and eventually the pavilion on 57 Street. I could not go fifty fifty street, you see there now and many other, you know, fire or the unrest or so it kind of created a whole, you know, a whole school. When you mix your flour and your eggs and put all of it just enough so that the thick could become very smooth. Do you have no to put the milk after? If you put everything together at the beginning, then it get lumpy and you have to strain it.
Speaker 1 OK, so what do you think that. What do you think looked heavy on such an important restaurant at that as far as service and food, what compared to what was already happening in New York, which was not much.
Speaker 2 You know, there had been great restaurant in New York, certainly the day Monica was actually a French chef from L.A. I mean, creating all kind of dish. But the of you know, Midtown was one of the great serving, classic French cooking, you know, to a clientele which at that time was already starting to get sophisticated and basically didn't have that many place to go. You know, eventually they will be the colony and many other like and so forth with the pavilion, whether the first with the classically trained people. I made some butter in there that you have to add to it a little bit so that you won't have to borrow your pen anymore. So, yes, Baddiel created a whole school of which are still here today. So it was an important part in the development of cooking in America. Uh, you want your crab to be pretty thin. So you put it around. I see the butter and the pan. That's it. And that will cook about a minute on one side. And you can see I just did the better start the crab. Some people say you have to let the batter rest look pretty rested.
Speaker 1 So tell us about the real the real
Speaker 2 butter through the patio was very structured. You know, a lot of important people on the way out. Almost every night you were out the Duke and Duchess of Windsor and people like that big star of the time. I mean, you can't count all of the you know, from Frank Sinatra, certainly to her to other great, great star and one of the family. Again, royal family if you want. But I mean, American family, politicians where there where the Kennedy was used to come here quite regularly, usually under the direction of John F. Kennedy, the father and the whole group and all that. And they whittled away. Well, with that big of a table next to the entrance so that if you sit there, everyone will see you and everybody will look at the way I was eating there. I thought, what kind of status? That.
Speaker 1 OK, so tell us about when you first met Jim
Speaker 2 of this year, Eric. I don't have enough heat on this. Uh. You know, the food world in America at the end of 1959 was a very, very small and work at the very young and a couple of weeks later came quickly. We just started working for The New York Times to do a piece on Sunday and on Friday as well, and then on me. So through xrayed a couple of them, we became friends. We talked to him a few days later. He introduced me to Helen McCullough. Helen McCullough, not that well known, maybe today, unfortunately, where the food editor of Macall House, beautiful, very feisty, beautiful woman from Nova Scotia, and she lived on 50 single and that First Avenue. And I live on the fiftieth anniversary, cradling on fifty third and Fourth Avenue for all in the area. So through Helen as she kind of became my surrogate mother, telling me what to do and I did and so forth. And Helen every day was speaking with Jane being on the telephone, you know, about what was going on in the food world. And so through Helen, of course, I imagine fear. I mean, it's amazing because if you want the trinity of cooking in America, which used to be a Julia Child and Craig Cable, I knew those people six months after I was here for the food world was tiny, tiny. So anyway, I remember eating dinner with the DMV at many time at Helen and and I was very petite, very delicate, too. And she had a very small portion at the time. But I remember one time we went there, she decided to do she was very ahead to do the asparagus. You know, we kind of got along the south, kind of still crunchy at the time. It was. And then she made quail, but she kept one quiet person. I still remember my wife and I and we had left when we are at the elevator. And where are we going for dinner? Yes, it was a big. And he likes to eat, you know. And so. So that was it, and then after that, of course, I made him any kind of big food things happening at the time, but I didn't take this the Beard Foundation and all of those organizations. In fact, at that time, there was no, quote, American chef that I knew. That is the only American show that I knew. We are black kids that I work with at Howard Johnson. I work for our team from 1960 to 1970 and in the kitchen there to all of the chef I knew in New York from before and there to where is a French, Italian, Swiss, German, too, but no white athlete. And then you start surging with the you know, with the CIA Culinary Institute of America, which at that time was in New Haven, studied and created. And now we without any question, some extraordinary chef in this country. But it wasn't the case at the time. It was different.
Unidentified No. You feel that you're
Speaker 1 not OK, right, and you touched a little bit, but I'm trying to make the connection of, like, how Helen really helped Jim get some of those early magazines Jim wrote for. He was one of the first men to write magazine magazines. And maybe you could just talk about how it was really, Helen, that kind of brought him into that world. Right. And her story has really helped start a career. Yeah.
Speaker 2 Helen, which I say is not as known as it should be, was an extraordinary woman helping. I remember going there when Julia, she says again in the spring of 1960, had a manuscript of cooking. You all look at it, give it to me, French cooking. And she said, What do you think? The woman is coming to New York next week? She's from Pasadena. You want to cook for us? Let's cook for her. So I look at the manuscript and she asked me, what do you think? Well, I think it's pretty good and it's very good. She's OK. She's coming here, the big woman with a terrible voice. And I've got to have Julia now. She read the same thing with Jim. And I said, Jim, every day. She spoke with him on the telephone to three hours. Helen was very involved. She was the operator of a record and how beautiful she was very involved in the writing of cooking. That's how I start writing cooking, too. She was the best at pushing people to do this, do that, too. And I think she did quite a lot of connection with the chance because this way, you know, to her to let him have maybe a more prominent place in the writing of food magazine and all that, so that the food world that I said was quite small at the time and people held them, you know, at one another. OK, I do crap in the last month, so I don't have to do 50 15 small one to be one is enough.
Speaker 1 So did you get tell us about James Cooking School and did you guest guest in his book.
Speaker 2 So Jean, I mean, always what you know, not only into cooking at his house. So I was there several times and at that time it wasn't the house presente, which is the where the foundation is. It was, I think on 10th Street next to the next to the jail. The lady there, a small house, that brownstone, too. And I gave cooking class there a couple of times with him. I made more than a couple of times. I cook several times with him. But when he was me, a party inviting me with him into the kitchen, we start cooking. But then the gym was very generous with everything that. But by being very generous, he was always broke and being always broke. He wasn't always ready to to do class and he was giving class. I gave class with him at the Stanford Court in California. I used to spend a fair amount of the summer there and in Napa Valley and other place. But then he started doing classes in his house all the time with his writing. So when it was free, he had told me, you know, if you need a place to cook in New York, feel like group, you can use my house. So that's what I did several times, two to three times at least. I had a group of like twelve student coming from the West Coast. And I lived in New York City at the time and I really didn't have a place to that I could use to cook with. So I used his house and of course he wanted me to be part of it. But there was a big spiral staircase in the center of the kitchen and that's when I start cooking up some smell. Then you would see him coming down and sitting with that. So, yes, you couldn't keep away from that. And so I did that a number of times and certainly had a great time with a great time. Also talking about his part in France. You know, he was in France in the 20s, 30s, were very impressive, became friends with the prince of gastronomy in France. Someone by the name of Kernohan Saeki in the twenty had been elected by all the chef of French writer. Ah, the prince of gastronomy, extraordinary man, and shall be at a dinner that he had with Norske, which they kind of look quite alike to a big man. So he also dinner in the Great Three Star of the restaurant of the time, which was found on plan. In the end, Waggons looked like an enormous man. Alexandar do man in Soliah and pick in violence. And all of those were very large men. One time I was at his house, you recall a whole meal that he in Seoul, you, you know, and with the man with all of the detail, with the ah, the other incredible food memory, you know, which is terrific for our food critic, which I. They don't have it. He was very good at that.
Speaker 1 Did you go visit him in the hospital? He was in the hospital. You kind of describe the scene. He told them it's lots of champagne and jam spraying if they
Speaker 2 came in and out of the hospital a few times. When I went to visit him in New York at the hospital where in New York, usually it was always carried by the fourth season and then they would bring him food on the West Coast or the chef. And I remember one time with Helen McCullough and it was and then colleague died in nineteen seventy six or seven. So it was seventy two, three, four. He was in the hospital in San Francisco and I went there, I was giving a series of classes and I called him, he said no, come, come see me. And I remember what I had done, a settlement that I cooked. I pushed a whole settlement done with the Muslim cells and the Muslims on their cells with whipped cream on top of it. So I kill her. In any case, I feel I'm going to bring you up to it. So I came in and I saw that package with this, which I snatched shit out of my hand, barely had the time to open it and start eating it like you finish it in three minutes. When the door opened and the nurses came in, grab it, whatever it left out of his hand. I said, give him that. I said, and she was very sheepishly, you know, he said, Well, I was just testing it. Yes. No, I had a big appetite. We love people with big appetite. You cook a great deal of love in what you do and cooking and giving. So people are pushing their food away. We don't like it.
Speaker 1 So after he passed away and Carolyn and the folks were trying to save the House, yes. What's going on here? This place was but it went on and on. I mean, if you can turn it off, it's great. But I mean, I'm also hearing the flames coming. It's not like it's OK in the world. Yeah, it's turned out like that. Did you do one of those fundraising dinners?
Speaker 2 I remember going there. I remember we did one thing because my wife at that time, Gloria, worked for some timer to the of golf course on time. I was one of the guys at the beginning with Junior also and with Caroline and Peter comes out and which was involved. I mean, Wendy has come to us from the house, was kind of sold in auction, and then people turn their on and they wanted to buy the thing back, which it was kind of a confusing time. But I remember doing one of those with Gloria and the car timer and forget another company. We went there because I even as a job at the time to give us some of these family, I mean, to land some of these fighting to hang on the wall because the house was empty and I forgot we did that fundraiser. Yes. I mean, many people did I forget exactly what what I did. But, yes, people were involved in that, trying to, you know, get the house back.
Speaker 1 Fortunately, and then since then and you cooked at the house for one regular
Speaker 2 thing, the house has been back. I must have cooked there to any time. I mean, any time when time for Helen for the French president. When time before my mother went home with my mother one time. The woman had no idea that dinner for my mother when she came. And I did it with Jean-Claude. And very often I did the menu actually that I draw the menu which was duplicated and on the board on top there, on the the board of the room, there is a bunch of my menu that I've done at that time on the wall. I think they're still there, but.
Speaker 1 So one of the reasons we're making cramps is because I read in one of Jim's books that he said he often would have the students believe that this would be one thing that he had to make because it was hard and they would work together and he found them because they didn't know each other. Maybe you could just kind of relate that
Speaker 2 I am a crap, you know, me kind of a thin elastic like this. And as you see, I did the better and do it right away. So it's not a big deal that I knew that Jim Livescribe and Classic Crab, the very versatile thing. I mean, they can stuff it with chicken and fish, so with other Suvari. But of course, most of the time it's about other Deseo. And I don't think that there is any cooking in the world from Crespin in in Italy to Pentagon in Germany. Do it to the Jewish, forget the name and on the you know, the Russian pancake, also the blinis, you know, to there is almost no cuisine. You don't have a type of flat, only one pancake like that which is used as a savory or a this. And I remember the name and I remember in fact, talking with him about the classic recipe. So that's what maybe I would show you to my cups that that was developed by Kalim, I believe, for the region of England. You must have had a distress call through that, you know, and which is the thing with very classic thing, which certainly at the time, you know, whether it was at the can't there, even at your home or jams, it was very family. I loved that recipe.
Speaker 1 So it will do it. You have won many awards. Tell us about that and why you think it's so important for Chef to be honored with wine and writers.
Speaker 2 I have been lucky with book and television and, you know, one thing and another cooking class to win a bunch of the year award. Yes. And I've also won a lifetime achievement award at that. Of course, it very it was nothing like that in this country. I mean, in Europe there are so many so many prizes. And now there are a bunch of those in America as well. But at the time, that was a big winner and still the most prestigious. Certainly. I know for a fact. I mean for a mmm. If you were here, one thing that he would absolutely adore, it would be this kitchen in New York, the being asked to be able to cook in the kitchen, you know, for anyone who had the chance coming from another part of the country. I mean, he was from Oregon, but any other part of the country you would have loved to see the young American chef coming there. And, you know, the rite of passage. Now, if you want and if you've cooked at the bureau, then, you know, it's a thing that you put on your curriculum vitae. So so it's great. And I'm so glad that it's still going on. It's challenging. When I look at the catalog now with going to cook next month, I don't recognize any of the years ago. I knew exactly each one of them there behind them, but not anymore. Talk about your relationship. Uh, you want to wait a little bit?
Speaker 1 Let's wait until we're going to need a close ups for that. Yeah, yeah. And we're I think we're through most of our questions.
Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh. You at another type of training that Julia in somewhere, and in some way they are the same. I remember cooking with with Jim and the first thing you would come out of his mouth. I am not a chef. You know, I cook with Julia first thing. I'm not a chef. And by then it doesn't really have. Quality of what you do, I have to cook with many chef who are very fast, very technically proficient, they can run a restaurant, 80 people account and move fast, and the food is relatively lousy. So everything is relative. And I know working with a friend of mine, well, Jim or Julia or many other, a fantastic food in the table, you got to also have enough leftover to feed whatever analogy to it, a different way of cooking. So being a professional chef doesn't guarantee you that you're a great cook. But at the guarantee you that you can cook in production and do then and she was very aware of that and are saying, I am not a professional chef and no more Julia, but I think they had a good time together up to a point. I thought that they were always a bit of respect from one to the other two, and I have never seen them very cuddly together, kissing or whatever. So but I know Julia talked to me several times about Jim and vice versa. And they like one another and they like they knew they were trailblazer in this country and what they were doing was important, you know.
Speaker 1 Yeah. And this matter is going to ask you, why do you think the change was so important to Colaneri? The culinary industry in this country,
Speaker 2 Jim, was important because certainly he had no complaints about getting into the world of food. Remember that when they came to The New York Times, standing right there the first time that a man could, you know, wrote food and it was always a woman and it was considered kind of menial, not that important. Well, you know, things change, of course, a great deal. Now we are genius. But the point is that the. She never believed in that. I mean, they knew Europe well enough, he knew the great restaurant of many of the part of the world, and they knew that food was much more important to, you know, to our culture, you know, to our country and America than it was in America. And he wanted to change that. And he wanted to bring food not only in New York, but I mean, to stand near his own O'Reagan to Westcoast. I mean, to say it was important for him that the food and the quality it was supposed to be, it was our fault, and that even though he didn't talk about organic in such name, but those type of product that he was used to having in Europe when I was in the farm, and he did a lot for him and he did a great amount of writing and he wasn't condescending in his writing. You know, he could write for anyone from the professionals to, you know, the home cook.
Speaker 1 Thanks for this great. Helen Emmetsburg, how are
Speaker 2 you doing something on out on me?
Speaker 1 Helen Brown, we're trying to kind of bring her a little bit in, so maybe you could talk about how well, first, Jim was one of the first people who really taught about how to properly cook outdoors. Some of his earliest books were about cooking outdoors.
Speaker 2 Yes, I yeah. I mean, I remember cooking with them on the West Coast. And here I remember I spent even more than I do her. So frankly, I mean, I remember seeing them and I don't really have much. Much to.
Speaker 1 Well, let's let's talk about this, you know, we have somebody who says that, you know, it really was Jim who kind of made it OK for men to cook. You know, when he first started writing, most of his readers were women. And men really weren't that into cooking. And he really, I think, kind of helped to bridge that. And, of course, those early after cooking books would have been, you know, kind of targeted to a lot of men. So we can kind of touch on that. And then he worked with Helen Evans Brown on how to cook outdoors. Right.
Speaker 2 You know, cooking in America is so different now than it used to be. It was always cooking outside in America. I mean, the bigger the big barbecue of the South Texas, where no doubt about it yesterday, but in a different way. I remember giving classes as early as the early 60s, one to three. And there wasn't that many men in the kitchen except in professional kitchen. But I mean, teaching, cooking, writing about cooking, too. And I remember that the people who came to my class, the home, cook for 30 people, 28 women, twenty women, one guy I gave class. I still give class at Boston University. Well, as the French Institute in New York. And I remember a few weeks ago with a deal on a smaller class of 15 people, it was 15 women out of 15 the time before I was 14. Woman One man. So the whole the whole thing changed change. Jim was very much part of this. That is the transition. The man coming wearing. If you want the domain of the kitchen, the man of the woman, which was the kitchen, so transcending that table. And on the other hand, the woman, you know, transcending the world of a man, getting into the business world and so forth. So there has been those crisscrossing of and often now, I mean, the home cooking, home cooking. Many, many families, especially young young couple are the men, you know, those were kind of new. And I think that Jim was certainly part of that transition. Part of cooking outside is boogy outside, but not in the level of those large barbecue of the South Lawn and the grill in the back of your yard or at a grill in these in these two houses that I've been in. And they would cook there. I mean, from the steak to whatever. I mean, quite regularly. Yes.
Speaker 1 Great, great. Uh, I'm sorry you said that your the classes at school, there were 15 women and 15 men.
Speaker 2 Just now, just know I said no and I said what I meant to say, that used to be it used to be nine woman to a man. And now the last time I was that you were 15 student, 15 woman the time before I was 14. WOMAN one It's all women
Speaker 1 now, you said. Yeah, the professional and the professional. Oh, yeah. Where I used to be. All right. Men at the professional level. Women at the right level. Right. That's kind of what. Great. I'm looking at your notes here. You mentioned that you had you quoted the Stanford Court and many stories. I know you mentioned Danny Kaye.
Speaker 2 I remember one time, you know, with with Danny Kaye and Philip Rivers. Somebody was assisting Jim at the Stanford School, I believe, and he made a souffle. And I don't know what he did with the souffle. It did work. It worked. You come out later, Philip, you get the souffle out and show him the souffle didn't work or whatever happened. So he said, drop it. So he came out of the oven and went up to say, no problem, we're going to do another one. So he went, oh, good recovery.
Speaker 1 That's great. All right, great. Here you go. So you just talked about the classes in his house. Um, what was this all sport?
Speaker 2 What did I tell most voters, have I told you? Yeah, the first half they told Gloria you got that House would be perfect for you. And he was probably right for the smaller house to and straight there. And it wasn't too expensive at the time. And my wife didn't want to move to New York anyway. So so it didn't work out. But I cook in that house and the new one is great.
Speaker 1 Um. You have for a look at where we sit, we talked about the Four Seasons. Barbara, the World Trade. Yeah, talk about working. Talk about Barbara Kafka. All right,
Speaker 2 Barbara, I got you know, it was one of my era, too. Great. But I mean, Barbara was very straightforward point of being blunt sometimes. So when we were together, the World Trade Center would be up in the World Trade Center. And I set up the commissary where Jim and Barbara were the consultant and we had those Zinner Testim food with Joe Biden and Barbara. And often they would get into, you know, small arguments about like, if I don't like that. And so for me, it was a little bit of something with the four season, I guess. But they they worked together, but. I love to work with both of them anyway.
Speaker 1 And she helped with his cooking classes as well. Oh, yes, course, yes.
Speaker 2 Barbara was, you know, very proficient in in talking about food and talking about cooking classes and talking about what was going on in the food world. And certainly, I'm sure she did help Jamie, a great deal about the gathering people to give cooking classes that he started doing a little bit all over the place. I mean, in 70, that's what I did, too.
Speaker 1 And did you ever meet Marion Cunningham? Oh, yes, of course Marion did on the West Coast. So talk a little bit about the difference between Marion and Barbara.
Speaker 2 You know, one time the first time that I had dinner at Shippen is in on in California, on the West Coast, and
Speaker 1 then
Speaker 2 in Oakland, there in Berkeley, it was with Marion Cunningham and then the three of them, Jim was there. I was on the West Coast. He said there is a new restaurant. Let's go there. Marion knows them. 2012. Jeremiah Tyrer was the chef anywhere at the time. And I have work after with Marion Cunningham, a chef that she always was, a very, very classy lady, very elegant, well-spoken, very soft spoken to. And I think I mean, they liked one another very much. And I'm sure Marion helped Jim on the West Coast, particularly with all the connection there to set up those classes in Napa, in San Francisco, you know, in Berkeley and all the places that he loved to go there.
Speaker 1 And personality wise, they were pretty different, right, Marion?
Speaker 2 You know, Barbara, I mean, if you see Jim around the swimming pool eating whatever was prepared, that he would use a fork and knife and these two hand, he would end up on this shirt, too. And you wouldn't see that is Marianne very proper with a towel. She was picnic picking up, dusting thing and all that. Yeah, different character. Still both love her food in.
Speaker 1 Oh. Great. I just had to talk about Jim's hands. He loved to use his hands.
Speaker 2 Yes. Jim was a very, very physical man, you know, large to an enormous hand. And I think that's why you asked me once to have more moments with the great French chef with a restaurant pastry shop on Second Avenue called Monte with best chef of France pastry to do last brioche and to do a buffet and won't take him within the class. I went with him and of course, Jim was there. He loved to put his hand in that door. You know, bread dough boils down to I mean, it's behind. There was something very tactile, something very, very true to that, you know, to that love of food, you know, which is not only cerebral, it can be very physical, even the visceral.
Speaker 1 So I think we only have one or two more sheepishness, let's touch on sheepishness, why do you think sheepishness itself became such a pivotal kind of in that 70s road food revolution police and American place like for Jones? Right. Maybe you could kind of talk about both of those in and how that was kind of the next era. But that really, Jim, in many ways talked about all that sustainability and local and how he kind of connected to that.
Speaker 2 You know, I said at the beginning of I said in the 60s, near the 70s, you know, the chefs, American chefs started moving it. One of them was not born at the time was Larry Forgione and work with John Deere, work at the house. And Jim came to his restaurant and I went to his restaurant, an American place. I don't know, five, six, eight time with Jim and all that, so he loved it that finally there was a restaurant of some of our restaurant have some glass and all that, an American chef, it brought back, you know, food. Not that he was a very chauvinist pig this way, but he loved it, that it was this way. I think Larry was a graduate of the CIA, came and worked with him and I worked with him and they were a very good team together. They work well together. And I know he loved I know Larry loved Jim, too. And it was different with with certainly with with this water because this water did not come out of a cooking school like CIA or whatever. She came out of a revolutionary moment, you know, to to to steal the idea of organic good food and people going to the market. I mean, she had no idea when she worked in the south of France, you know, in in a winery there that I know quite well, you know. And so she came back. They are full of ideas about doing market, about, you know, organic stuff, about working with the farmer, with the payzant and all that. And I think that was something that Jim was very interested in, something that he had had when he was a child, just like I had when I was 13 years old. My mother at the restaurant next to the market in Leon and my brother and I went to the market at seven o'clock in the morning to carry the stuff back and we had no car. My mother walk the market by on their way back, buying a case of mushroom because she knew they couldn't sell it. It would last until tomorrow trying to get it off priced. She got home without being a vegetable. We went to school and she said it for lunch and dinner. She didn't have refrigeration. She had an icebox at a cabinet with a piece of ice and she put a fish, meat and poultry and thought it has to be use. Usually you run out of it. There was some level that was our lunch or dinner, but basically that was it. Every day started and it was all organic. It was all local. And but my mother would have liked to have a refrigerator on me, but it was, oh, look at him. In the arrest of my mother with an organic farmer. They were organic, did not exist anywhere. But fungicides, insecticides, fungicides, all that stuff did not exist either. So everything we did was organic. And that's what basically Alice wanted to do to bring that to that. But this wasn't a stranger to to to, uh, to Jim because he had been through that. A young man just out there are so.