Speaker Very much like.

Speaker OK. All right.

Speaker You know what, I wanted to first off and ask you, it seems like an idiotic question, but it is for all those people who exist today, only in the moment and don't know anything.

Speaker In the early 50s. Do we because an Arthur Miller matter. Are they the kinds of people that are on the lips of.

Speaker Ordinary Americans today, I mean, no, 1950, 51, 52.

Speaker I think so. I think they they were. I mean, do you know that depends on what you mean by ordinary Americans. I mean, if you're talking about going to almost certainly anybody who went to the movies or the theater knew very well who Arthur Miller and Elia Kazan were. Elia Kazan, particularly, was the king of both the film and theater world in a way that no one has ever been before or since. I mean that it's very hard to explain to today's audiences. I mean, kids, today, it's as if if. First of all, there's the theater has nothing like the impact that it had back then. Television was just beginning. So it hadn't yet taken over as a major entertainment radio and started to move down because the advent of television, the theater was a huge, huge part of the popular culture. And Kazan controlled the theater as much as it would be as its Fehlberg controlled television and radio at the same time that he controls film as he does now. I mean, that would give you some notion of the power and the notoriety that Kazan had. It was impossible to not know who he was. He was the foremost figure around here. He was the director who did Tennessee Williams plays. He'd done Arthur Miller's plays, a player they did in jazz plays. He did Robert Anderson's plays. Arthur Penn, who at one time had five plays running on Broadway at the same time said that for a period of around 10 to 15 years, if you even got to read a play, it meant Kazan had passed on it. So that gives you some idea of the the fame and power and control that he had. And it was not kept a secret. I mean, he was very much a public figure. I mean, he was always being written up in the newspapers and magazines and very, very, very notoriously spoken, often or highly spoken. He certainly didn't hide his feelings. So Miller, you know, was with Tennessee Williams, you know, the two kings of the American theater and playwrights dominate the theater in a way that they don't any other medium except books.

Speaker And he had Miller had just done both.

Speaker All My Sons and then Death of a Salesman, which, you know, Death of a Salesman, arguably one of the great plays of the 20th century. In fact, I don't know how you could even begin to argue that it isn't one of the half a dozen great plays in the 20s and Death of a Salesman like Blow to the Solar Plexus.

Speaker Absolutely. I mean, it is it it just hit everyone exactly where they had all of their sensibilities, even if they didn't know that's where their sensibilities were. There was no one who came out of seeing that play who wasn't just. Just shattered right down to the bottom of their feet. You know, whose lives hadn't been subjected to a kind of emotional microscope that made it impossible for them to ever think about themselves and their work and their family in the same way as they had two and a half hours before when they hadn't gone to the theater yet. And it was astonishing. And it's still I mean, the number of people I know who sit down to write a play either about family or the American scene, as it were, who time and again say I was going along fine until I realized Cheesus. Arthur Miller did it 50 years ago.

Speaker I mean, the Congress of a young guy. Let me ask you this.

Speaker Some long winded comment. Don't worry. I'm not going to let you train the way. Go in peace.

Speaker I mean, it still is to let us know where we're talking about that in 2009.

Speaker Oh, it's just great. All right. So we've got kids in this giant and not just going back and forth between Los Angeles and New York, but going back and conquering almost completely bald.

Speaker Absolutely. I mean, he won the Tony in the same year that he won the Oscar. I mean, this was this hot stuff, man.

Speaker And Miller has written, if not the great American novel, The Great American Play. Yes, every. College kids, what dream? Absolutely. I mean, they all at that point.

Speaker You want to hold off lot of it was for asking the dumb question to give you plenty of room to run. They know each other.

Speaker I do. Arthur Miller and Elia Kazan know each other. I believe they know each other intimately. They Kazan told me that Arthur Miller was one of the absolute closest friends he ever had in his life. He adored him. And when he read his first play, the Oh, my son's, he just knew that he had met a sensibility that in many ways was identical to his own. And and they became very, very close friends. And Miller in his autobiography says that he regarded Kazan as a brother.

Speaker So what is it that they sharing? They're both men. You know, it's interesting because they're both on top of the world at exactly the same moment. And they're both and they're best friends. What is it about them? What is the sensibility? Because they seem of service. I really do.

Speaker Well, what. Here are some of the things that I know about that Miller and Kazan have in common. They both had great difficulties in resolving their conflicts and feelings from about their fathers. Both of their fathers were very driven businessmen. Both of their fathers were businessmen who had been badly smashed up by the the Great Depression, but who nonetheless clung to the belief in the American business system. Both of them had disappointed their fathers by not going into business. So they both had that. And that, by the way, isn't it enough? It does by itself cemented a very, very strong friendship. They both also had a driving need to ask the big questions about the world they lived in. First of all, about themselves. They both had a very large interest in looking inward at, you know, the the psychological springs of of human behavior in their own psyche. And again, that's something that is enough to cement a friendship. They also were both extremely interested in the politics of the world in which they lived. They they had similar feelings. They were both very far to the left. They both felt strongly that the working man should be protected by the government, that the government had an obligation to look after the poor and downtrodden.

Speaker They both you know, it seems to me you're going through all I think it seems to me that that's all very much here in the head. But as you describe, Kisan. You know that this guy who. Is utterly conquered two worlds. I would think at that moment it's hard to find connections to people that understand what your life is like. Right. When you're that much, you've got to live in a bubble when you're that high on the mountain top. Do you think it's not?

Speaker I mean, it seems to me that not unexpected that Miller is the guy that understand that they did.

Speaker You know, they walk the street together.

Speaker Well, I think that such trying the same air. Is that fair?

Speaker Well, I think that's that's right. I mean, Miller articulates that again in his his autobiography. He says it as much as he'd like to have thought of himself as not changed by being rich and famous overnight. That that that's basic. But you no matter who you are, no matter how vigilant you are to try and prevent that from happening, that it's inevitable that you are altered in some way beyond your control and other people are altered in the way in which they think about you, feel about you and deal with you. And you have no control over that. You have no control over the fact that suddenly people, you know, think you're something special. When the day before, they just throw on a schmuck. You, Arthur, you know, this dopey Gadge, you know that. But suddenly they're bowing and scraping because your pictures in the front, The New York Times. And that is the nature of celebrity and wealth. I mean, there's a reason why those two things have maintained their position at the top of the American dream. And so that. Well, I think that did did provide a bond for them. They both knew that they were in that bubble and that therefore they could. But they actually their bond started before that. I mean, don't forget that Kazan had a bit more of a career than Arthur Miller did, which is how he got to do Miller's play in the first place. But they they both kind of get catapulted out of the pack together on the same piece of work which Miller wrote and Kazan directed. And it was one of those wonderful symbiotic relationships where or synergistic relationships were one and one added up to eleven. I mean, they really did augment each other and in beautiful ways complemented each other. And both of them knew it. Both of them knew with all of their both intellectual and instant and instinctual capabilities that they were that this was a better playwright and I'm a better director for being in contact with this man and his work. And they both knew. They both knew that they served each other brilliantly.

Speaker So they had a relationship to protect and they seen it as beautifully stated.

Speaker And I think they seemed to have a bond of love. I mean, I don't mean it, but they seemed to. And maybe. But they seemed to be.

Speaker That's the phone I'd warned you, you probably had. You thought it was merited. Not the same woman, but.

Speaker Their marriages are. So much is running in lockstep together.

Speaker I think that's correct. They both, from what I understand, had similar relationships with their wives, although Kazan was far more. Active outside his marriage, let's say, then, I understand Miller was.

Speaker What is that dynamic at home that they shared?

Speaker Well, I don't know that they actually would ever articulated with one another. But I think that they were both in some ways extremely dependent on their wives, dependent on them for a sense of their own worth. That their wives completed them in ways in which nothing else in the world could have done it for them. As young man, you have to remember they're also, you know, quite young at that time. They both got married very young. I mean, Kisan was 24 or something was straight out of out of school. And clearly his marriage. You know, he married America. I mean, here was this immigrant kid, you know, who was born in Turkey and moved to Constantinople and moved to Berlin, then back to Constantinople, then to New York, then then up to to Westchester, all that. But for he was nine years old. I mean, English was his third language. And he always felt very much the outsider, very much the foreigner, very much somebody who was not part of the world around him. And there was Molly de Thatcher, whose grandfather was the head of Yale, and someone else was the head of Harvard, I think. And she was the ultimate Yankee member of the establishment. I mean, she she was as American as American could be. And apparently, according to things that had been written about her. Full of all of the best virtues of that sort of New England staunch. Puritanical Fersen and also the liabilities of such a personality as well.

Speaker It he said that he married America. I mean, it was very much about acceptance.

Speaker I think very much so, yeah. And I think she very much made him feel that he was okay. In a way that nothing else, so certain, no one else could.

Speaker And so that's a guess. I mean, you know, I think that's right.

Speaker I think in a lot of ways, very much an equal in terms of intellect. You know, she was somebody who could engage his work.

Speaker Oh, absolutely. I mean, the no slouch. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, by all accounts, including his own. In his autobiography, Kosan gives her very, very high marks for her judgments in terms of ability to read material, fine material, understand material, see the value in material, know how to improve material, and according to himself, relied extremely heavily on her opinions.

Speaker So let's shift over, if we can, to Miller, because I have sort of lit the world on fire in New York and their site. Come out here. Do they bring. Yes. What is the.

Speaker Well, the Hook was a screenplay based on the Brooklyn Longshoreman's Union and that Kazehaya I can't remember whose interest it was first. Miller.

Speaker Yeah, it was. Did he go to logic? Yeah.

Speaker First thing and and then long you took him down to the dock and took him around and got him to know all the boys in Red Hook and all that sort of part of Brooklyn. And he spent a lot of time doing research on the corruption of the Longshoreman's Union. So what did they bring with them out here? Well, they brought a screenplay that that Miller had written and called The Hook.

Speaker And I don't think I'd I don't know how much input Kazan had had on that screenplay. I mean, he had written a screenplay before Kazan. And any input then?

Speaker I'm sure because in being the man he was, he always, you know, fiddled with the material and tried to improve it and most of the time did improve it. I'm sure he had some input to it and they brought it out here to try and get it made. At that time, they were both really hot. I mean, as hot as you could get in the entertainment business.

Speaker OK. So let's think about this. Arthur Miller people surprising playwrights writing the screenplay wants to direct it. Studios, I imagine, are falling all over themselves to make.

Speaker Well, you would have thought so, but they were not falling all over themselves. I mean, this is such a complicated question.

Speaker I'm not precisely sure the timing, but it was right around this time that you act was getting back in business and starting to blow a lot of smoke around the place about communism and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that had been hanging over Kazan's head for a very long time because as he had acknowledged, he had been in the Communist Party in 1934, left it in 1935, but there was no doubt he had been in in the party. There was also no doubt that people knew he had been in the party and people knew that he had quit and that the Hollywood Ten had already happened back in nineteen forty seven.

Speaker The blacklist had started after the Waldorf conference. Mean a world that has the studios got together at the Waldorf Hotel and being extremely inventive, creative men.

Speaker They called it the Waldorf conference and for lack of they had it and they all. Exactly.

Speaker And they all they all agreed to not hire anybody who stood up to the House un-American Activities Committee. And, you know, it's one of the things that many people don't understand about that whole period. And they forget over and over again that despite how horrible the committee itself was and what a central role they had in the whole blacklisting business, I mean, they engendered the whole thing, but they themselves did not create the blacklist. This was done entirely by the studios. This was their response to the committee's hearings. And they they made that decision entirely on their own. The community didn't force that decision on it. The community didn't even raise the question with them. They were so frightened by the thought that the government was going to get into the movie business in some way, start imposing restrictions on it, and probably frightened that they were also going to open up the movie company's books and start auditing them in a way that they didn't want. They didn't want the government involved at all.

Speaker But it wasn't a government. Right? I mean, they're worried about all. What will that mean in terms of the hook? Well, let's talk about Whitelock with what the studios are certainly worried about government intervention, but they're also worried about the American Legion, right?

Speaker Oh, absolutely. But in terms of business. Well, they are concerned. I mean, by this point, they're the the sort of red baiting had started all over America. And it was all this business about I'd rather be dead than red and blah, blah, blah. Communist conspiracy is going to try to take over the world. And so we've got to drum the reds out of everything. And, you know, this goes back all the way to the 19 teens in America and even said what's what is Jack Warner who will be meritorious?

Speaker What do these guys really scared?

Speaker Well, I think that they're that they're afraid of a number of things. One is they're afraid that, as I say, the government is going to start interfering in their business and tell them what to do and censor them in a way which is utterly unacceptable to them and also get into their books in a way which is unacceptable. There is one thesis which has been first been was very persuasive, actually argued very persuasively by the writer. I forget who it was, a metro wasn't Neal Gabler's suggested that there was actually a very, very strong anti Semitic component to the whole blacklist because, you know, many of the communists were intellectual Jews who came out of the thirties, who at that time were looking for any solution to the world's problems and done. Exactly. And. And these guys who were moving most up fairly for what they were, I believe, a number of things that were that that drove him to join the Communist Party.

Speaker That's, I think, the question you're asking.

Speaker Mind you, everything I say has a measure of speculation about it. Right. But one of the things is that it was in the air. I mean that, Nina, during the Depression, so many people's lives had been shattered so entirely. And Kazam goes into great detail about how his father, with whom he had had, you know, horrendous difficulties because of his father's deep commitment and belief in American capitalism. And then his father's back was broken by. He saw his father as he did. Every time I talked to him about it, that was his phrase for it. I saw my father's back broken by the Depression. You know, it's a man who all he cared about was making money. And everything he had was just snapped in half. His business was taken out from under him. He invested in the banks and the banking system and went broke. Stock that was worth six hundred dollars a share one day was worth a quarter know by the end of the week. His life savings was gone. And, you know, to be the head of the family and in one of those old world Greek families, being able to provide, being them that, you know, that's what made you the king of the roost. And, you know, you've been laying down the law for all these years and suddenly you're no longer able to provide for your family and you go to work and there are no customers coming through your door. There's nothing for you to do. You're reduced to being nothing. This had an enormous impact on Kisan, even though he in many ways didn't like his father at all and certainly didn't like the system that his father was so committed to. And, you know, felt also a lot of his friends were involved with the Communist Party. A lot of people were. Everyone was looking for a solution. Everybody was looking for some way to make the world a better place to live in. We it's almost impossible for any of us to begin to understand what it was like. My dad lived through the Depression. So I grew up hearing stories about it when I was a kid all the time. And, you know, his father had to sell apples on the street corner for, you know, a nickel. You know, I remember in a letter that my father had written to one of his brothers. And during the Depression, and they owned the little dairy restaurant, little Jewish dairy restaurant, he said, you know, it's really been a great day today. You know, it's only five o'clock and we've already taken in 37 cents. And I can hardly talk about it without crying now. Well, you know, those guys who'd lived in the middle of that were so desperately looking for a solution. And along came, you know, there was communism in so far as they knew, the Soviet Union seemed to have solve those problems, Marxism and socialism, all of that. As far as we didn't they didn't have the kind of instant communication that we have in the world now and to be able to solve those problems.

Speaker But they're addressing those problems, right? Well, that's right. Right.

Speaker Yes. They were addressing those problems. Yes. That you're talking about the Soviet Union or it suck. Yes. All of communism was it was exactly addressing those specific problems, whereas it didn't seem that anything anyone in this country was addressing those problems.

Speaker Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats, although when Roosevelt came in with the New Deal, he certainly started to address them. And Kazan and, you know, you asked about Kazan was very much a Roosevelt new dealer. And indeed, one of the things that he didn't like about the party that chased him out of the party was how much the party turned against Roosevelt when indeed he felt that Roosevelt was such a hero that he had done things that had saved the country, basically.

Speaker It seems to me I think that's right. I think one of the thing also that I want to talk about is.

Speaker He seems too much of an independent. Thank you.

Speaker Oh, actually happened. Why does he why does he bolt?

Speaker Well, as best I can understand, from what he has told me and what I've read, there is some confusion about this, by the way, because one set of documents suggests that he was actually thrown out of the party and that he bitterly resented the communists. And part of the reason that he later felt so virulently angry at them was never getting over being thrown out of the party. I don't know if that's true or not, because the other side of the coin is his saying, well, what he's told me was that they were organized and told to go back to their little unit, their cell of the group theatre, and start to try to take over the group theater, to organize the actors, to organize the company in a way that they would begin to be used as an instrument, a tool for communist propaganda. And that veejay Jerome, who was the cultural tsar of the Communist Party in America, lived down 12th Street, had the boys in and said laid down the law to him. And Kazan was somebody who never liked anybody laying down the law to, you know, going back to his own father. He just couldn't stand it from. And he was only going to take so much of people laying down the law to before his left. And that's basically what he did.

Speaker And again, I can't say. Okay.

Speaker He bristles at the sort of. Authority, period. He bristles at authority. Period. He's not a man who fits easily into any system.

Speaker He's not a man who would have. I think it's why he always stayed in New York and didn't live in Hollywood. I don't think he felt remotely comfortable inside the studio system. He's not someone who ever liked being told what to do or how to do it. So in the party, in the party, that kind of regimentation, you know, got him crazy very quickly. He was only in the party for a year, year and a half at the most. He didn't last a long time before, you know, that sort of oppression drove him batty. And he just said, Goodbye, boys. I'm out of here and quit. You know, he just stopped going back, end of it.

Speaker And then then he really couldn't understand it when people in the party. He was his old friends when Hitler Stalin pack took place. That's when the Soviet Union made a pact with Nazi Germany, a non-aggression pact that they wouldn't wouldn't attack each other. While the communists at that point were saying, America, America should stay out of the war because now the Soviet Union was in on the side of the Nazis. Then when Hitler broke the stop the pact and attacked Soviet Union 15 months later. Now, all the communists were saying, oh, Rosano, the Americans should get into the war on the side of the allies. And yet they stayed loyal to the Communist Party, which I'm going to talk out of this fight because we're going to lose everything you say.

Speaker But it does get to the very core idea that there is a belong.

Speaker It's not only Stalin. There's a blindness to the gulags, is a blindness to the purges.

Speaker There's a blindness to a whole set of things. Maybe not as early as 30 for one, because that's. Dancing with the party. But by. By the war after the war. Does Ketsana resent that as well?

Speaker Resent the blindness to. Oh, he did resent it very much. Well, they very much resented it. And any couldn't. Could not understand how people who had been friends of his and whose who he respected and cared a great deal about, knew he knew to be capable of thinking through things very clearly were so utterly blinded to the events that everybody knew was going on, you know? And they did know everything is much, you know, that they knew later on when Krushchev revealed it all, you know, in the early 50s. But they knew a great deal of it. They knew that that by that time that Stalin had killed tens of millions of people, you know, that that he was as big a monster as Hitler ever was. You know, that all of that had been done. The Iron Curtain, you know, dropped over Eastern Europe as as Winston Churchill said that, you know, and he could not understand how thinking people could be so blind. And I think actually, in my opinion, he was a little bit blind to not being able to see why they were so blind, because my experience of the communists said that I knew in my life and ones that I've read, ones that I've talked about, talked to other people about. And even if you study the other side of that, you know, you read deeply into the life of of J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI and all the guys who are hunting down and communists. The Communists believed in communism in a way that it can only call religious. It's the only way I know to describe it. You know, their belief in the ability of these principles to change the world and to actually even change human nature, to make people into better human beings was as complete as a Catholics belief, an immaculate conception. And then and these eyes, as Cosan said it, as late as 50 something or another when he made that rather uninteresting move man on the tightrope. He said, you know, even as late as then, it was still thought the way a communist thinks, you know, that once you've done that, it's really hard to get out of your system. I know I once made a movie about a guy who was kidnapped and or became a member of a cult and had to be deprogrammed. And, you know, way again, it's something we don't understand just how easy it is to manipulate the human being's brain. And, you know, read James Joyce about what the Catholic Church did to him by the time he was seven years old.

Speaker You know, even after you wrote all this, wondering.

Speaker Yes, apparently. I mean, and and as I say, the only way I can describe it is with a religious fervor. And if you read is that, say, J. Edgar Hoover and statements that he made as early as like nineteen twenty three or four about the Reds, you know, the Haymarket Square and all that stuff, you know, his hatred of communism was as much a religious passion as the communists belief in their own. I remember my uncle that was a communist do not wish to say to him then you know, how can somebody as smart as you? And there's the Communist Manifesto in which it says a famous quote, that religion is the opiate of the masses, right? Yes. He said to me, I said, OK. On the other hand, they also say that there will be a state only so long as it is needed, that we will put all of the economic and political power into the same hands. And there will come a time when the state is no longer needed and these people will give back all that power. Now, I would like you to tell me when in the history of the human condition. Has anyone ever done such a thing? This would take a miracle that would make the virgin birth look like a parlor trick. And yet you say that religion is the opiate of the masses. Do you realize what a religious belief that is in the potential of a human nature to change that's required of one to believe in the principles of the Communist Party? It's absurd, except in addition to the fact that the mathematics don't work. I mean, anybody is just like Bush's mathematics. He said.

Speaker Something like I love you and a pat on the head. You know, we're sort of suggests that when I get older and understand more about the world than I'll see the light or that you didn't give a damn that I was perfectly content. You know, it's perfectly all right with him for me to disagree with him. As long as I was thinking about things, he didn't care that I agreed or disagreed.

Speaker As long as I was thinking, OK, so we've got a pretty good portrait of the world in which you. What happens to it?

Speaker Well, what happened is that it struggled along one of the things is that, you know, Hollywood is afraid of many things. And and it has always been afraid of many things and not the least of which is the unions and the unions have a stranglehold on Hollywood, much more powerful then than they do now. Now, there are a lot of mitigating forces that have to do with people taking work overseas, so much non-union work going on, etc. But where the union's greatest power derived and very few people realize is where their greatest power derived was not from the cameraman, not from the actors, not from the Teamsters, but from the projectionists. There were 10000 or more projectionists in America. If you if the projectionist union wouldn't show your picture, you're out of business. So you have to appease the IÉ, which projectionists were all part of the International Association of Stage Technicians and something or another. So they controlled the final distribution of movies, which was the date, the switch that made the movie show and the movie theater. So if you couldn't get them to work, then your films wouldn't be distributed. Well, the thing is, A Hook was a movie about contamination in the unions. It said the longshoremen's union was controlled by a bunch of goons and thugs. Well, anybody who said anything that was against the unions, you know, you first, my brother, you're cursing me. So guys like Roy Brewer and all the other people that controlled the unions in Hollywood didn't want anything that was anti-union to to be made. I mean, they were or I should say the moguls were afraid that they didn't want anything to be made. You have to remember that only a couple years before, they had been that huge scandal that really buy off in Brown where they had found all this corruption in the unions in Hollywood. And again, they were afraid that the government was going to come in and clean them out.

Speaker So that's one piece of the most interesting for me is that Roy Brewer aspect. But several simultaneously, Harry Cohn, who was the place where the hook is being considered. Right. Send it off to the FBI.

Speaker Well, that's correct. Well, at that point, don't forget, by now you've got the whole red thing going full tilt and you are going full tilt. And Joseph McCarthy is on the bullpen just getting ready. This threat even bombs all over the place so that you know that there's a great deal of pressure on the studios to not get any attention from the government again, for all the reasons that we said before. So he wanted the FBI to vet it to make sure that nobody accused them of of doing anything that was un-American. So from what my understanding is, is that things were going along. Harry Cohn, he Harry goes on record, is saying, look, I don't like this script. I don't give a damn about the Teamsters. I don't give a damn about labor. I don't give a damn about any stuff. But I want you guys to do a movie for me that I want you to do. So if you want something you want to do and you can do it for a price. Fine. I'll go along with.

Speaker Then he gave it to the FBI for the FBI to vet, and the next thing you know, there is a memo sent to Miller and I don't know whether went to Kisan or not, but it certainly went to Miller and it said that you have to change that. The bad union guys from gangsters and thugs to communists. If you'll make that change, make the bad union guys commies instead of gangsters, then I'll fail. Financed the movie. Otherwise I won't. And. Miller suggests he was rather baffled by this. Scratch his head and thought this guy's name is he talking about? I mean, this is absurd. I mean, it's got nothing to do with reality. It's got nothing to do with anything. It's just not true. It's just simply not garbage. It's got nothing. No reason to die. I would never think of doing such a thing. So he withdrew it, withdrew the picture at a point in which Kisan was in budgeting meetings with with Harry Cohn to start shooting the picture. And one of the mysteries to me is why Kazan in his autobiography. And and then when I talked with him about it as well, that he never referred to that letter from Harry Cohn to Miller. He suggested very strongly that it was a great mystery to him why Miller withdrew the hook. And I don't see why. It seems rather impossible to believe that Miller wouldn't have picked up the phone and called Leon, said Gadge. You know, it's interesting that apparently Kisan, who is called Gadge for 50 years, hated that nickname.

Speaker But he covered that hatred's so well that even someone who considered him, his brother, Arthur Miller, didn't know that and called him Gotch anyway.

Speaker So it's if I can because I mean, I know Marge Schott.

Speaker So he doesn't he did a great job of saying what happens?

Speaker OK, and it's very clear that, you know, to change the communist may not make sense in terms of what's going down the waterfront. But it's going to offer the studio we'll protect.

Speaker That's correct. It's car. Yeah. Now that, you know, nobody can come back at them and say, how could you do this movie?

Speaker You know, then you know where the commies are obviously trying to say bad things about the unions in this country and they want to take over. They have to remember the longshoreman's union in San Francisco, which is a huge it's going to be way.

Speaker Well, OK. But that was Communist and Azari Bridges. So. So let's let me shift gears, because, you know, OK, can we take a break for a second.

Speaker Yeah. But his.

Speaker Chief Marilyn Monroe. Is Maryland. This is one. I can't.

Speaker I don't think she was yet. I'm fact I'm pretty sure she was not yet. I can't. No, I don't. I am not a Marilyn Monroe file. I'm not one of these. Why not? I mean, that there are some people who work could tell you, you know what?

Speaker She had what she had for lunch. I mean, I don't I don't know that.

Speaker But I think back on it, she couldn't have been because the Kisan tells of the story in his autobiography of taking her with him. Then he and Arthur Miller to a meeting in KONE's office and passing her off as a secretary at a time in which she was actually under contract to Cohn on the lot. And they did it as sort of a goof. Did later demonstrate to Cohen that he didn't even know his own employees were. So she couldn't have been an icon yet. So that's that's the answer to your question.

Speaker So it's all platonic between you, between Calzado and because. Well, no, I'm not.

Speaker Again, I mean, all you need do is look at Cezannes autobiography. He makes it pretty clear that it's not all platonic between him and Monroe at all, that that they had done what young males and females in heat tend to do with one another. And it doesn't suggest, however, that in a very good friend of mine is Chris Mankiewicz, who grew up in this town as a kind of prince in the way that very few people do. His father was Joe Mankiewicz and his uncle was hermit, and he knew Marilyn Monroe and all these people.

Speaker He said that Marilyn Monroe had been really very, very badly done by by the executives and producers and big shot male animals in this town. There's nothing to suggest that that Kazan took advantage of Marilyn Monroe.

Speaker But he makes it pretty clear that they were a great deal more than platonic friends, that they were lovers as well.

Speaker I always assumed that it was Marilyn and Arthur Miller.

Speaker Well, he introduced. I'm sorry. Kazan introduced Miller to.

Speaker Marilyn Monroe. I mean, that's my understanding from his book.

Speaker I mean, that that he Kisan knew Marilyn Monroe for Arthur Miller dead and that he introduced them and that that that they fell for each other very quickly. It is the way I remember it. I haven't looked at the autobiography for a while, but that's my memory is Edmund Monroe and Miller. On the surface of it, you'd think of an extremely unlikely couple. I mean, there is one of the absolutely most intellectual giants of America with a woman who was cultivated a professional image of of the bimbo veto.

Speaker So let me interrupt, because I want if you can't just almost map it out for me, because I'm going to be an idiot here for a second and don't reference the looks like it's going to be hard. OK. Miller and Miller in Monroe Fall are for each other. So she stopped sleeping with me once.

Speaker Well, again, you say they shouldn't reference the book, but the only information I have on this subject is what it comes directly out of.

Speaker What Kisan says is that he and Monroe continued to sleep together even after that. She and Miller had met each other and had fallen for each other. Now, Miller was still married at this time and not apparently not leaving his wife or even thinking of leaving his wife. Not that I know of. I don't know. I don't I don't remember about that for Miller. Sort of. I just don't remember. But.

Speaker So it's conceivable that I can still sleeping.

Speaker Why does he say. Is it an aberration?

Speaker No, apparently not. I mean, Kisan, again, says very clearly that that he had always been attracted to the wives of friends of his and the girlfriends of friends of his.

Speaker So, I mean, this is not an easy to see. Seem to be unfair to describe him as a womanizer.

Speaker I don't think so. I mean, I think that he makes it very clear he's a womanizer. I mean, it I think he was to call him candid. I think he was excessively candid in his revelations that he made in his own book about himself.

Speaker And he's well, he said that, you know, I mean, that that he had screwed up his first marriage, his marriage, Somali, who is absolutely the the most important dearest creature in the world to him, but that he had found it impossible to be faithful that.

Speaker And and also things basically that it's an unnatural condition for anyone to be. But that certainly. While he thinks it's an ideal worth striving for, that he'd never mastered it and that he was very, very anything like even tried. No, he doesn't seem to have tried. And and it. But again, you know, this is a guy who grew up feeling like a freak as a kid. He just thought the guy who practically didn't have any dates all the way through high school or college. I mean, you know, he thought he was extremely unattractive. He was also on anatomically unsound, again, just referencing his book as he as he tells it. So he had all kinds of if ever a man was driven to prove that he was worthwhile as a an attractive male animal. It was a leap because then I mean, he was a father. He thought he was ugly. He had bad acne. He had had a problem with his testicles from the mumps. Then he got little later in life than most kids do. So if he went about, you know, proving to himself that he was a virile man by sleeping with as many women as he can. He fits directly into what they say. It's almost a cliche how well he fits that pattern. So it's hardly a surprise. And it's as he also stated, that it is a very common practice of successful men in all businesses, but particularly in the entertainment business, to take as one of their perks the sexual favors of beautiful young women. And, you know, the casting couch is a cliche, right?

Speaker Mean I myself, I must tell you, I have never had many years of running movie studios casting. I mean, I must have cast a thousand parts in my life. Not one single veral ever made a pass.

Speaker Not a whole lot of power. You know, it is.

Speaker Am I going to get that OK? I mean, no one knows how much they love Arthur.

Speaker You know, it's just I don't know. It's just so out of body. Well, it's certainly out of.

Speaker Context for me. I've never had a relationship like that, so I find it very difficult to identify with in a way that isn't very odd. I mean, I always thought that was partly because I had an older brother who was so close to that. He and I never even looked at the same woman. So I never understood how any man got particular pleasure out of sleeping with another man's wife. And I'm sorry, I was frankly far too complicated just so it's such a it's it's hard enough when everybody is single and God.

Speaker So why is Marilyn sleeping with you so well at that point?

Speaker Number of things. First of all, he was never as ugly as he thought he was. He was not an unattractive man. He was in many ways, in my opinion, an extremely attractive man. But. Everyone is caught at that in their image of their own body and face. I think almost every sensitive creature in God knows Kosan was sensitive, is stuck at the point in which they were least attractive.

Speaker That's what they see when they look in the mirror. No matter how many women sleep with them, no matter how many kids they have, no matter how much people, Ptolemy's adorable.

Speaker What they see is the most unattractive version of themself that you can imagine. And so I don't think he was that unattractive to begin with. He was home. So, I mean, this is what, again, has become a cliche. I mean, he's the most seductive, charming man that I've ever met. And and. He must surely have been the same way with women. He had such power, his personality is so dynamic and so strong, and he's such an interesting man. And he has that wonderful ability to make you feel like you are the most important individual that's ever entered his life. His life is for ever enhanced by having met you. Well, who can resist that, you know? Nobody you know, when you have to remember, Marilyn Monroe probably didn't think so highly of herself either. You know, what she probably remembers is some fat bottom broad from, you know, whose father tried to rape her and her stepfather and her first husband who left her and all these men taking advantage of her. I mean, you know, there's nothing to indicate that Esan wasn't really very nice to Marilyn Monroe. There's also. And then there's work. That's right. Although they never work together now. But there's a promise of work. There is the potential of. That's correct. And oddly, that enough, that. He was very surprised that she turned out to be the movie star. She turned out to be. And this is a man who discovered more movie stars probably than anybody else in the history of film and theater. And, you know, he just didn't see it in her.

Speaker I'm sorry for jumping around with there's something that I'm looking at my notes that we kind of danced a bit about. Leave Marilyn alone for a second. So you talked about it a bit. But I want to actually go back about the Hollywood Ten and the blacklist. When Hollywood 10 are held in contempt of Congress before they're convicted, they're held in contempt. The studios get together at the Waldorf Astoria.

Speaker They released the Waldorf statement saying it's the beginning of the blacklist.

Speaker Do you think the studios had to do that to stay in business, or more importantly, could the studios have said, screw you?

Speaker These people don't meddle in our business without an option even?

Speaker Well, you know, it's gosh, hindsight is so wonderfully convenient. I mean, of course, I think they could have could. I think I think that they could have stood up to the government and said, you know, get out of our business, you know, leave us alone. You know, demonstrate. Show me one single motion picture that has communist propaganda in it and then we'll talk.

Speaker But there is not one.

Speaker There is no, no, no, there there's no one ever picked out a single picture other than something of, I think, mission to Moscow or something or another. It was done in 1944 when the Soviet Union was our ally in the Second World War.

Speaker But I guess something is there's not even any fight, is there?

Speaker Hi. These men do not show a great deal of courage. They never you know, they they showed a certain amount of of incredible kind of heads. But that. Loan sharks have and, you know, they were incredible gamblers when it came to being Shoman, but they certainly had no moral courage or political courage of any kind whatsoever, no sort of basic decent human courage. And, you know, they were not there. They never looked at it as their job to take on the government. The United States, you know, if there was a problem, they would do anything they could to avoid it so long as it didn't cost them anything, you know, cost a lot of people. Well, they didn't care. They made a lot of people it would cost. But, you know, they didn't see that it would cost them financially. You know, I have to remember that they basically that's what they cared about was their own bottom lines.

Speaker I guess what I'm getting at is, you know, because it's going to be hard for the moral.

Speaker Seems to me that as we sort of pass out blame quite often. Studios'.

Speaker Seemed to skirt away and seemed to get off the hook. They're not held accountable at this moment. And. It seems to me it's a great moment of huge moral weakness.

Speaker Perhaps if you'd like to know why the studios got away with it and managed to never be besmirched by the blacklist, and instead they you know, people cavalierly blame Kazan as if he was responsible for the damn thing is. Is this still a company town? This is still one of the most gutless communities. This may cost me whatever career I've got left. But this is one of the most gutless communities that I've ever even heard of. So nobody's going to stand up and say, well, the studios were the ones that did it because people need to work for the studios. That's who writes the paychecks. So if you stand up and say that, you know, the studios were the ones were at fault, were the agencies that were the one at fault, you're liable to find it extremely difficult to get yourself an agent and you're likely to find it very difficult to find employment working for a movie studio. This is still true, you know, 50 years later in this town. So it's easier it's much easier to blame it on some guy who's 92 years old who can barely defend himself.

Speaker You know, I mean or even even when he was young and virile, you know, it's much easier to blame some individual than to stand up and say, wait a minute, guys, you are the ones who started the blacklist. You're the ones who still maintain the blacklist. You are the ones who could shatter this whole thing in one minute simply, which indeed happened the minute that Universal hired Dalton Trumbo under his own name to write Spartacus and then whatever the hell, now that thing was.

Speaker And The Blacklist. Suddenly, one stinking guy. I mean, Kirk Douglas hired Dalton Trumbo and made it, you know, made them allow him to use his own name. And that was the end of the blacklist. That's how strong it was.

Speaker Premature.

Speaker Yeah. And premature. That's right. I mean, that's how hard it was that, you know, one company said, bugger off, let's jump around.

Speaker Let's just play.

Speaker So, I mean, that's not Oscar because he gets his honorary Oscar, right. He becomes this. Well, Blaine just seems to just like a sponge being asked to hold all the blame.

Speaker Well, of course, it's not fair. I mean, it's in part, of course, it's not fair to blame the blacklist on one individual. I mean, especially if you remember, Kazan was an employee. He worked for the companies. He didn't run the companies. He didn't have a blacklist. He didn't enforce anybody, anybody's political system. He was another guy on the work line. He didn't construct this system. That said, you even name names that don't name them whatever the hell it was or, you know, you never work in this down again. He was one individual. It's always easier to jump on when I've just had to said it before. You know, if you're going to go back to the root of it and dig out the history, the actual fact, it was the studios with the complicity of the major agencies. And then, you know, in the television end of it, all of the advertising agencies and the networks who got together and get these people out of work. No, people thought. I mean, it just.

Speaker You know, it is some in some ways, it's a backhanded tribute to Kisan that he was the repository of so much anger. Going back to the very first question, you you asked me about, you know, the extent of his power in the popular culture at that time. You know, people actually said, well, you know, if only he had stood up, then we might have broken the backlit the blacklist.

Speaker Well, to to attribute that sort of power that one individual director could have cracked.

Speaker Eight movie studios and a half a dozen gigantic agencies all on his own.

Speaker It's absolutely ridiculous. It's nonsense. You know, it's you know, nobody wants to blame the guys who is still signing your paychecks. My Uncle Ned was a blacklisted writer. Right. The blacklist. He was still thrown.

Speaker You know, he was never he died in 1968. And I'm now contradicting myself about the blacklist being shattered because until he died in 1968, he was still not allowed to sign his own name to anything he did, including the defiant ones for which he won an Oscar and inherit the wind for which he was nominated for an Oscar.

Speaker You know, it says on it on them that Nathan Douglas.

Speaker He was a friend of his, got him a job on a television show doing the sort of lead in. You know, he was a man who rode out of the West. Blah, blah, blah. Which would have given him a certain amount of income every week. And this was in the 1960s.

Speaker And the sponsor found out he had been blacklisted. And Adam Turn-off. There was pretty extensive. I mean, you know, he was thrown off in a Chevrolet assembly line. When they found out he was blacklisted. So a lot of people were very badly damaged, but to blame one individual one, it's so clear that he didn't have that kind of power. That's why I say to attribute that kind of power to him is sort of flattering.

Speaker But it makes you feel better. I think that short answer, not expecting trouble.

Speaker Yeah, they they all knew that there was gonna be trouble because, well, they knew they were going to have trouble with it.

Speaker Kisan knew and the producer, Charlie Feldman, who had been an agent before that, and the studio, I assume, also knew that there was gonna be a certain amount of trouble with the ratings board that Hays commissioned that. Yeah. As for the committee and also with the Catholic Legion of decent decency and and all of those sort of things, who, if they disapproved of a film, would put it on the list. And then you know that there was a list. If you got a C, then if you were a Catholic, you were not supposed to see the movie. And, you know, these people listed again. The studios are in business. They don't just as now, they don't want X ratings in their movies. They wanted the the greatest number of people possible to be able at least to buy a ticket and go see the film. So Streetcar being a highly sexualized movie in which the male star at least controls the women in the in the film by virtue of its blatant sexuality and in which there is so much talk of sexuality. That isn't it. So it's so funny. It wasn't that long ago with the fact that Blanche had been married to a boy who killed himself because of homosexual experience. Is this stuff.

Speaker It seems like ancient history for anybody to be worried about that. But I don't get into trouble. What happened was that they the the ratings that people insisted that it be cut. And at one point that was that there were certain things from what they thought were too sexually stimulating that they were they they made made it looked too exciting to erotic for it to be allowed to be seen. And at one point, Kazan had to go back to New York.

Speaker He was leaving to do a play. I can't remember which one, but the Warner Brothers had promised they would not change a frame of the film. And Charlie Feldman, the producer, promised that he would see to it that nothing was changed. And of course, he got back to New York and they changed a lot of things, and one of which most notably is at the very end of the movie. You know, when he does that famous screaming of Stella. Stella. And she comes down this long staircase and, you know, embraces. And he's actually on his knees. And there is like a three foot cut in that between the time she's at the top of the stairs and the time that she gets down to him because they thought that she looked too lascivious, that it looked too erotic. It looked like she was going to get too much pleasure out of what was clearly going to be a sexual release of the tension that had built up.

Speaker They chopped a couple of feet out of it. I mean, it's absolutely ludicrous. I mean, it was a close up of a woman walking down the stairs. I mean, that's that's how dopey they were.

Speaker You know what if you just say, well, he screamed and yelled about it, but there wasn't much you can do about it. You know, the directors in those days didn't have final cut. I mean, that's. Nobody ever heard of such a thing. Well, I guess, you know. Well, it didn't. I think you didn't even write a letter to the president. Right. Right.

Speaker I was gonna say wrote a letter to The New York Times. And, you know, which he did on a number of occasions. And. But I don't think he got any results from it.

Speaker I think he didn't. But I guess I'm asking you. It says something about his character. He's not afraid to take Jack Warner on publicly in New York. But it may be.

Speaker But he'll do it, right? Yes. Absolutely not. This is a man who, you know, you're talking about. You know what? Whatever else he did. Wrong or arguably wrong politically when it came to his work. I mean, that's was really his religion. His work was and I took on a kind of iconography, a kind of graphic which, you know, size in his psyche.

Speaker You know, that was really what mattered more than anything in the world. And he'd take on anybody to defend that. You know, even the guy, you know, who financed the movie, you know.

Speaker Is there any danger in 50? Want to.

Speaker Of course. Well, I mean, you know, it's all is I was just saying before is the danger is you won't get to work for many more.

Speaker Not only will Jack Warner not hire you again because you've made him look silly in The New York Times. But what other studio chief is going to want to put himself in a position where he might get is, you know, self looking like a fool in front of the entire American public with a director, you know, that say I'll wear them. We'll get some other guy on it to say action, cut in print. What's the big deal?

Speaker You know, it's interesting to me because it seems to also make him a hero.

Speaker And he was the one.

Speaker Oh, absolutely. I mean. Yeah. I mean, you have to remember, despite all that streetcar went ahead and was nominated for 12 Academy Awards, the wisdom at the time. And ever since then is that the only reason that he didn't win an Oscar. The picture didn't win an Oscar and that Brando didn't win an Oscar was because Kazan had refused to name names.

Speaker When he'd been called by the committee and that that had caused such a controversy that the academy had turned his back on it. You know that I mean, it was so obviously so much the best film of the year, so much. And Williams didn't win for best screenplay. I mean, how could you know, the you know, one of the two greatest plays or one of the three greatest plays we throw in Death of a Salesman? And Eugene O'Neill's long day's shooting tonight.

Speaker And you've got the three greatest plays of American 20th century. How could he not have been the best screenplay of 1952? Whatever. But it's a warning shot across the bow. Of course it is. Of course it is. Yeah, of course. It's a warning shot across the bow that you screw with us and you could get yourself in a lot of trouble. You could lose your job. We won't give you any awards. We can slam you down a lot harder than you can slam us down.

Speaker You know, how does Hollywood know? I mean, because that first testimony so that first testimony is executive, that first testimony was an executive session and every journalist in America had a copy of it by the end of the week.

Speaker That's how much they respected the executive session. It was public knowledge so fast. Your head swim was a joke and it makes its way into the tray. Absolutely. I mean, it was ridiculous. Everybody knew what had happened. I mean, it's I mean, it's just so silly. Executive session. I mean, good Lord. Just lie. I mean, you know. Yeah. We won't tell anybody what happens. Phone right out the back door.

Speaker Talk to me if you can extend that, you know. Do you think Islam is in turmoil at all at this point?

Speaker I don't know how he could not have been. Why? Well, as I say that they're all the Hugh X stuff is is building up. It's gaining momentum. You know, there were a couple of years in which it had gone quiet between forty seven when that Hollywood 10 went to jail.

Speaker And before the committee came back out of its cave and started attack again, led by the very beloved Richard Nixon, who made an entire political career out of red baiting.

Speaker But again, everybody knew it was there was it was common knowledge that Hugh ACX was going to go on the attack again. And as I said, Kazan had been a communist. So he knew that eventually he was going to get called.

Speaker He'd already been called once. So that there's no no doubt that this this game was not over yet. And there were people who were already losing their jobs from being blacklisted in Hollywood.

Speaker So that pink slip comes to that. Is it for him?

Speaker You mean as to whether to do. I think it was a murderously difficult decision.

Speaker I mean, as he said himself, it in when you make a difficult decision, what that means by definition is that no matter which what you decide, you lose. You know, it's like if you decide to do a then you're going to lose everything on the side of not a if you decide to do not a you lose everything on the side of that.

Speaker Then once the difficult. He's not in a party anymore.

Speaker Well, look, there is. For as long as there has been written history that I know of in least in the Western world, a presumption against. Informing against betraying people who were friends.

Speaker I mean, this John Ford made the movie The Informant and won an Oscar for it in the 1930s there. There is a an assumption that landing your friends in hot water is a horrible betrayal of trust. And it's impossible to live in this world as a human being without trusting other human beings on some level. You know, it's it's a horrible world if you can't trust people.

Speaker So anything that I don't.

Speaker Well, but if you don't inform, then you run the risk of not being able to work again, then, you know, your career could very well end. That's what was happening. And the committee took the position that if you. Did if you didn't take the Fifth Amendment, if you admitted that you were a communist, then you could add waived your Fifth Amendment rights and you then could not take the Fifth Amendment. When you were asked to name names, you could you could not use your Fifth Amendment right to defend you against giving the committee names of other people that this was not protected. But the Bill of Rights. So once you had admitted you were a communist, which Kosan had already done, then if he didn't name names, then he was going to be in contempt of Congress, go to jail and.

Speaker That was that be blacklisted.

Speaker Now, you know that there is there is no absolute position about anything in this world and most moral situations because, you know, the people that were led by Admiral Canaris and the others, for instance, in the plot within that, that the generals and admirals of Nazi Germany to kill Hitler, then one in all would say these were extremely heroic men who risked their lives to kill the man who they owe their allegiance to and his henchmen and gerbils and gerring. And all those guys were great guys. You know, when they betrayed their friends, they know the guy who, you know, a whistle blower on.

Speaker Yeah, well, the whistleblower on that, that the tobacco companies is considered a hero. So Kisan is really struggling with this thing. And I actually think he's struggled enormously. I mean, every I think he's struggled enormously with that decision.

Speaker Everything that he has ever written or said about it, anything that even most of the people who hated him for what he did don't do. I don't think I've ever read anybody saying that they thought that he did it with any joy in his heart.

Speaker You think in your mind that he's going to be able to preserve his relationships, in particular, that he's going to be able to preserve his relationship with Miller?

Speaker If he names.

Speaker Do you think you'll be able to preserve the relationship with Miller?

Speaker You think I knows the cost of naming names?

Speaker I don't think he knew the cost of naming names. No, I don't think that he knew it was going to be as bad as it was.

Speaker He certainly knew it was going to cost him something. He anticipated it was going to cost him something because he went to, you know, most of the people whose names he named and talked about it with them. And several of them said they were going to name like liberal Odette's, that they were likewise going to name names. He certainly knew it was going to cost him those friendships. As some of the people I think he's one of me said, spit in his face. He certainly knew that they were going to be a lot of people who would have nothing to do with him. But I think he was probably surprised that. How big? Who hide it cost and not? It was Miller, no.

Speaker OK. No, we're not. OK, let's hold up. You have to keep interrupting. Yes.

Speaker So he calls Miller up. I mean, Miller is important. He's not going to name Miller. He's got a name or that skin name, Paula Strasberg goes to the people he calls. But interestingly enough, he also chooses to name one of the people who is not good.

Speaker Arthur Miller, in your mind? Conjecture, I understand. Right.

Speaker I mean, is so far as I. I know that people he named were people who had been in the party with him. And I don't think Arthur Miller had been anywhere near the party with him. So it would not have even crossed his mind to name Arthur Miller.

Speaker I mean, that's a why call it I tell. Well, already I'm going to.

Speaker I think, you know, Arthur Miller was clearly a moralist, you know, that, you know, it's the heart and soul of all of his plays.

Speaker Four and a half months without a cigarette after three packs a day.

Speaker All right.

Speaker So why reach out?

Speaker Well, as I said, I think Arthur Miller was very much a moralist and as a human being. And that's reflected, you know, it's right at the heart and soul of of the work of his work. I mean, all my sons life is nothing, if not a morality play. So is so OK.

Speaker Well, that being the case, he knows that naming names are not naming names is a moral question that will that it will certainly be a question that Arthur Miller has thought about, that most people think that naming names is not a good thing to do. And I think he wanted. I think he wanted. Some sign for Miller that this would not cost his friendship. I mean, I don't think that he anticipated that Miller would not speak to him again for many years. I don't think he thought that would happen. I think he was probably hoping for some kind of acceptance and understanding from Miller. I think and I guess this is all speculation, but my guess is that that he knew how deep the friendship was between them and that he was hoping that Miller would see beyond that the obvious things that were not right about what he did. And understand what the forces and pressures were on him and the things that that were on the other side, that that that led him to decide to name names that, you know, as I said before, them, the moral question. You know, it cuts both ways. If you know it, if you take Cezanne's word at it's face value. You know, Kazan would wind up saying the logic of this position is that naming names was the moral thing to do, not the immoral thing to do. Well, of course it is. I mean, you shrug, but that the logic.

Speaker Well, because if what Kisan said was that he believed that there was a real communist conspiracy in this country and that it was indeed a danger to this country and that liberals, particularly people on the left, that there had to be stand up and talk about it, because to be silent was to serve the Communist Party, which stood for the overthrow of the government, the United States. And that we had to demonstrate that there was a non communist left in this country.

Speaker And therefore, that it was the right thing to do, even though it was going to hurt. Friends of yours that that when you weighed it up and down, you know that you know that he came out of the different side was Eum Foster. Then you said that if I had to choose between my friends and my country, I hope I have the courage to betray my country. And I think Kazan's version of that would have been I hope I have the courage to betray my friends. Now, you win. If you state the question, then you must acknowledge, even though you would disagree in with your heart of hearts, with every cell in your body, you could disagree with the moral conclusion that this other person came to, but you could not deny them the right to come at that more to arrive at that moral conclusion. They have as much right to their moral conclusion as you have to yours. But no judge. Of course they do.

Speaker And people judge everybody who disagrees with them, you know, and you know how I feel about it. And, you know, I, I, you know, I don't ask that the price that Kazam pays immediately afterwards.

Speaker Well, what about it?

Speaker What do you ask is the price?

Speaker Well, I mean, a lot of people, you know, shunned him, dropped him like, you know, the worst kind of horrible disease ridden, a moral leper. I mean, people just turn their back on him, you know? Even students. I mean, people who adored him, admired and loved him. You know, that, you know, there were a lot of people who just, you know, would never have anything to do with him again.

Speaker And and, you know, went out of their way to insult him, that people who would would cross the street so they wouldn't have to acknowledge his presence. And he said that it made a man of them. I mean, because Kazan has said that up until that time that he spent far too much of his life and his energy trying to get people to like him doing things that would win for him, the approval of his peers.

Speaker And therefore, he spent a lot of time acting on false premises in a way. And that.

Speaker Having to face a situation in which in order to do what he believed was the right thing and knowing that it was going to cost him a lot of the affection that he felt that he needed to continue was an extremely grown up and mature thing for him to do. And that, indeed, it did make him grow up and much work.

Speaker It's interesting, though, because we talked a lot about the inner turmoil. He talks in his memoir quite eloquently about not being able to sleep, about eating too much, about all of the psychological and emotional costs.

Speaker Publicly, he doesn't present that face.

Speaker He presents a very certain assured, confident.

Speaker This is the only thing to do.

Speaker Primarily, that's in The New York Times. That's where he takes out, right? Well, that's correct.

Speaker And I know that and there are many people who say that that it was the ad in The New York Times that enraged people far more than his testimony did.

Speaker Well.

Speaker They I mean, I from what I've read, I mean, obviously, I have no idea. Why would somebody. Well, somebody feel that? Will they thought, you know, it's bad enough to do something like that, but then to try and moralize and tell other people that if they don't do the same thing, that, you know, that they're committing some sort of moral. Wrong. I'm sorry. I've used to speak English. They're what they. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, it put people in an outrage. They know those who thought that what he did was wrong. We're certainly going to be outraged by anything that suggested that they were morally and insufficient by taking the position they did.

Speaker So I guess what it gets said is the fact that he publicly has no moral ambiguity about this decision. And for the rest of his life, shows no public face of regret. And that seems to be the thing that infuriates people the most.

Speaker Well, that's apparently correct. No, I mean, my experience is is very personal. No idea what my experience was, was, you know, I came to know him 20 years after the fact.

Speaker And at that time, he was clearly recognized that there were very much two sides to this story and that maybe he had done the wrong thing.

Speaker I mean, it's all in my book, the stuff that, you know, that you have written. Yeah. So what? Why are you in Cezannes life at all? Well, I was I was in On the waterfront.

Speaker Why does Kisan what's his connection to think? Why are you thinking? How did he find his way to this movie?

Speaker Well, he I believe that Kazan, you know, as we know from earlier conversation, that Kazan always wanted to make a movie about the waterfront and that he had developed a screenplay with Arthur Miller called the book, which Miller took off the boards when Harry Cohn insisted he make the bad guys. Communists are not gangsters. Now, that did not stop Kazan from wanting to make a movie about the waterfront.

Speaker And somewhere along the way, I think he he there was a number of things. One was Malcolm Johnson published a series of articles about corruption on the waterfront that had won a Pulitzer Prize. And so that had a lot to focus public attention to it. In addition to which, I don't remember exactly how Kazan knew that Budd Schulberg had written a screenplay based on that that material. It could well have been that he went to check into the rights that material found that Spielberg got it and found out that way. I do not know. At any rate, he and Spielberg got together and and the Schulberg was one of the most prominent writers in America. In my opinion, he is America's secret weapon is a writer.

Speaker I mean, he has written the best book ever written about Hollywood. What makes Sammy run? He's written other novels. A Disenchant is a wonderful novel, The Novel of Love of Waterfront. He's a great writer. And I do not know I've I've not read the book. The original material that when Kazan and Miller worked on it is because I find his way.

Speaker Well, okay. I know I know where you want to go with this, but I have to do to get there my own way, which is that because I don't know how different. The the original screened material was from what came out between him and Schaumberg. And I don't know what to Schaumberg script like looked like before Kisan got involved in it. Clearly, the Cezanne's Touchtone emotional strongest connection to the material is that Terry Malloy, the the hero of the movie, that the protagonist of the story is faced with a difficult decision, the same kind of difficult position, but decision, rather, that Kazan saw himself as having faced when he had to decide whether to name names in front of the House un-American Activities Committee or, you know, or take the consequences for not naming names. And and the situations as he saw them were clearly not not only contingent, but they overlap very strongly. And they had in both cases, I meet in the film script of the film, we finally saw The Waterfront. Terry Malloy has to decide whether to turn against the people who had nurtured and supported, who had been his family and closest friends all of his life because they had done terrible, horrible things. The movie is about the wakening of the of a conscience in this young man who had even out to spell conscience, you know, didn't eat at one point is a wonderful line in the movies.

Speaker What is all this conscience but this conscience? Giving me a headache. I'm tired of hearing this word conscience. What is its conscience makes me sick. It's very funny. I didn't do it justice.

Speaker But so the situation of Terry Malloy is very, very similar to what Kisan faced and in his own life. And clearly that's his emotional connection to it. And he never dodged that. I mean, he said that that he always wanted to make a movie about the waterfront and the corruption on the waterfront. On the one hand, that is true. He has likewise said that there is this clear similarity in the material of the film and the material of his own life.

Speaker Let's talk about this for a minute. Let's put a few aside for just a second.

Speaker Talk about filmmaking, things like that, 53, 53, 54.

Speaker Right. Right. Somewhere in there, black and white.

Speaker On location. About a bunch of union guys.

Speaker The kinds of films that Hollywood was making in the mid 50s.

Speaker Very different. I mean, when this for instance, this very same film script went first to Darryl Zanuck, for whom Kazan had done five movies or six, I forget had bailed him out of a terrible hole on Pinki when John Ford had just dreadfully mangled the first three weeks of shooting. And, you know, Janneke was paying salaries to a cast and crew and he said, Cosan help helping. Hussan went out there and saved his bacon. Zanuck owed him big time. But Zadik, you know, let him down the Mary path and then wouldn't do the movie and told him that the reason he wouldn't do the movie was from there on out. His entire slate of movies was going to be done in CinemaScope. That television had been seen as such a threat to the moviegoing public, you know, that it had taken over so much of the leisure time of the movie going public that it was a threat to the motion picture industry and that the studios were desperately trying to find some way to recapture a big chunk of the audience that they had lost to television. And so they were going with all kinds of experimental stuff. And one of them at first light was color. Everything started being done in color. So there was more black and white than it is today, but certainly converting to color. And then they want to know what is the value? Well, that's right. He was asked to do Prince Valiant, which was going to be.

Speaker Yes. And then again, because we are OK. Yeah, Kisan was asked to do Prince Valiant by Jannik, which was perfect for CinemaScope. And you can you can imagine, you know, Kazan doing a comic strip. You know, he was a guy who wanted to do this sort of hyper realistic, you know, in the tradition of of of Rosolino here, the SICA in terms of the way it shot and look about things that mattered. You know, he didn't bust his chops to acquire all this power in the entertainment business to squander it on making movies like Prince Valiant. So he'd walked away from what was a huge moneymaking opportunity to try and get a movie made that nobody wanted to touch.

Speaker It does make me think of what he said in his book. He never did anything for money. Least of all me.

Speaker I mean, the logic is that he's named names for money. No name for big contract. Then you go and you do print about go off and do on the wall.

Speaker Well, exactly. Or you do certainly that. But you certainly do something that is going to make your money. You know, there were people that said that, as you say, that he sold out for money. Well, then why didn't he make any money? You know, did he suddenly feel so guilty about for what he did that he didn't care about money anymore? I can tell you that Mr. Gonzales is somebody who cared about money a great deal. It was very important to him that given the background, the way in which he was brought up, you know, he grew up quite impoverished. So money was very important to him. But he didn't do he didn't sell out. But it was more as I told you, in my opinion, art was Cezanne's religion.

Speaker So On the Waterfront is a dangerous picture, not political, because of the fact that you have no career, no apparent upper class. That's correct.

Speaker OK.

Speaker And by the way, at that point, Cezannes film career was not as hot as it had been before because it had a couple of flops. So his stock, which is pretty, you know, so so I guess that's why I'm trying to get.

Speaker He names names, presumably to save his career. And the world falls apart on him, right?

Speaker Well. You know, presumably by some people to save his career. I mean, he says that was not the case, but that is correct. Is his career fallen apart and his career did fall?

Speaker This is his career had fallen apart and he had become a controversial figure both to the left and to the right. Both of the left and right felt betrayed by him. So nobody was on his side. And in the last couple of movies he made didn't make any money. The support of even supportA and men are a tight rope. We're both box office flops and. Can't remember, I think panic in the streets was the one just before that, and that was also not a big box office hit. The last thing he done that made real money was streetcar.

Speaker So a man alone. He is a man alone. He's a man alone. And he is not. And I think the people who had been his closest allies and friends, people like Arthur Miller of have walked away from them because of what he did.

Speaker So, Terry, as somebody then that he is intimately identifies with. And it's interesting to me how many of you can see the end of the film, the.

Speaker But just Attarian forms. But at the end of the film, Terri comes back and even talks about in his book The Johnny Friendly. I'm glad.

Speaker I'm glad. But I done it was it was it was me I was betraying all the time.

Speaker And then Terry gets the crap beat. Yes. You think as he sees himself in that place, too?

Speaker Oh, I think absolutely. He sees himself in that place. Well, I find that Mike. Well, I think he sees himself as having been beaten up quite badly for having done what he did. But I don't think that was the reason that he put that in the film. You know, I don't believe that to be the case.

Speaker I think people can can overanalyze and over deconstruct any piece of work. What Kazan knew was that if we're going to care about Terry Malloy at the end, when he leads the workers back into the into that huge warehouse to go back to work, that he was going to have to pay a very heavy price for it. It could not be just a walk in the park. OK, I ratted you people out and I yelled at this guy. Now, let's everybody follow me. That that was not dramatically sound that in order to make this dramatically sound, he was going to have to get beaten to within an inch of his life and then overcome that. You know, with whatever shred of strength he had left and claimed that which.

Speaker Was he thought properly is that's just purely good drama. It's got nothing to do with, you know, how he identifies or not identifies as just good storytelling. And Kazan knows a good third act when he sees one.

Speaker I agree that that's a great third act. And that is. It's intrinsic to this story. It's necessary. The story calls out for it.

Speaker Well, that's right. And that's why it also must be heroic.

Speaker I mean, you know, as you know, when Bud wrote the novel of the. Based on the same material, he had Terry not end up victorious. You know, he was getting killed, I believe, doesn't it, because he thought that was the right ending. And it it might have been the right ending for a novel. But if you're you know, Kazan was a drama.

Speaker Does me ask you this question, if I could pass up today, a director, especially today, that wipes out, you know, Dolly shots about CGI, but all this kind of camera stuff? Right. OK.

Speaker Not a lucky that there's no robbery or anything in the neighborhood. If the helicopters were circling, you would go, that's.

Speaker None of that is within Kazanci language. None of that's part of his.

Speaker So what makes him a great director?

Speaker Well, Kisan, in my opinion, Kazan revolutionized the event. That takes place inside the frame. You know, there's form and there's content, and he altered an enormous way.

Speaker The content of what was inside the frame of a motion picture by changing the style of acting from what it's called classi, indicating at its best where emotions are demonstrated as opposed to what Kazan did, which was make his actors experience the emotions in front of your eyes. When people hear the actors are experiencing those emotions themselves as they are being recorded by the camera, they you have a sense of truth that is inescapable.

Speaker And therefore, people who see this respond to it differently. And it's very clear that people liked what they saw because acting in film has never been the same. No one has allowed people to go back to that sort of classi indicating without, you know, sort of calling it soap opera acting. You know, it's Kazan is the single individual who changed it in motion pictures. Absolutely No. One. No. I mean, a lot of people came along afterwards. But he was the man who did it all on his own. Yeah.

Speaker In my opinion, it's interesting. And I'm talking over this sort of circles overhead that it is when you watch this film, you think.

Speaker Getting into a like rush hour sort of stuff, that's fine with my life time.

Speaker People think their private planes.

Speaker Is it really true? And it's Friday. It's Friday afternoon, so. So but, you know, you watch one of these things. You watch street car.

Speaker You watch On the waterfront. You think, God, you know, Brandos, a great actor. Kim Hunter or, you know, Malden. You don't think of the director. He's. Transparent.

Speaker Well, that's good. I mean, you shouldn't be. Well, I mean, a good director should be invisible. Anybody direct any director who is trying to call attention to himself while you're watching the movie is foolish. I mean, you're don't go to the movie to see a great director. You go to the movie to see a story, to see that experience. Something that, you know, makes you laugh, makes you cry, informs you, entertains you in some way, changes your life. You know, in the best of all possible worlds, those all of those things, you know, you don't go to watch somebody show off. You know, if you can see the director's work and you're aware of the director's work, then that director has failed in his job. And if you were ever aware of a camera movement in a film, if you're aware of a dolly shot, then the director has screwed up. Even Hitchcock, who was the master of all time of moving cameras, inventing stuff for it, did it? No way. We weren't aware of it. It just seemed organic and natural. It was only in that, you know, later when people got to be much more conscious of films and people started studying films. Now terror theory and all the rest of it, that people have had to dissect and look at the shots that Hitchcock did. But when you went to the movies as a kid, you saw Psycho. You just jumped out of your pants. You didn't realize that what you were seeing was Marty Balsom on it on a conveyor belt where the camera was moving backwards at the same time that it was being delayed forward and the zoom was being pulled into that. Yeah. Nice stuff. Oh, you were saying something fantastic happening in front of your eyes. Kisan, it seems to me, almost always had the camera where it belonged. You were always watching the most important event in every scene from basically the angle you should be watching it from. And with the distance that was appropriate to be seeing it from that. That's that's my feeling about because this thing you don't notice. I defy. Tell me about Billy Wilder's camera work. Tell me one shots can. Billy Wilder has made 60 movies. Tell me one shot. No. Billy Wilder film. Name one.

Speaker All I can think of is the line. I think of him as a writer.

Speaker Well, look at that name. These you know, it's them.

Speaker Why aren't some like it? Yeah. You can see Marilyn Monroe running down with her boobs on the fourth planning the last shot of the whole thing. Yeah, but you don't think of his the shot. No, no, no, no. You're right. I agree.

Speaker So the great John Ford, you don't think of these shots, really?

Speaker Stagefright. OK, that is that yeah, I mean. All right.

Speaker So all I'm saying is that great movie makers usually, Jim, right? That Truffaut film. Right. The camera almost never stops moving in that film. And you're utterly unaware of it. You have to watch that film so carefully before you realize. Changed as cameras on dollar every single shot.

Speaker And so Kisan in that way is a great director, even though you don't think of the camera.

Speaker In my opinion he is. Yeah. I mean, you know, are there guys who were better than that than him at that? Probably, you know. Well, I'm not talking. That was. But if you have to ask, what was his what did he do?

Speaker What single thing that he'd do better and differently than anyone else did, which I suppose, you know you know, great artists.

Speaker Not only do what they do very, very well, but in some way they make a contribution to the form itself, not that's not necessary. I don't know that that that Tolstoy changed the form of the novel or that Dickens did or either, you know, the fact that James Joyce did, as you know. But we're still. Yeah, so. Exactly. But so therefore, making a contribution to the form is a nice thing to do into country. And as I say, I think, you know, Kazan changed. And and the the what is acceptable is acting and change that and contribute. That was a major achievement.

Speaker You know, it's changed so much smaller than what we've been talking about. And you see what the pressures are on people to to not endanger their. Ability to express themselves. They want to function as an artist or indeed to make a living.

Speaker It's you know, it's you know, it's said. Well, let me ask you this.

Speaker Let me ask you this. When you heard you were somebody who was in Cassagnes life for a while, you're certainly somebody who's. Knows this town exceedingly well. When you heard that Kazam was receiving an honorary Oscar, a lifetime achievement.

Speaker What were your thoughts, Frank? You're not going to like my answer that I think there is no way.

Speaker OK.

Speaker I mean, I had a I'd done a book with Kazan that was scheduled to be published in the spring of 1999. On the Monday morning after the academy, it voted to give him this special Oscar. My phone rang at seven o'clock in the morning. A friend of mine news at that meeting called and said, Jeff, have a seat. Your life is about to change for the better. I said, oh, well, that's nice. What happened? And they told me that this was going to happen. My first thought was great. I'd better get to New York and tell my publisher, because my book is going to be, you know, a much bigger seller than it would have been had this not, you know, the serendipity not happened.

Speaker So I'm afraid that my response is terribly personal. It's got nothing to do with any of the politics or anything, I expect.

Speaker Well, what was your second thought? I mean, what was your what was my response may determine in terms of did he deserve it or not to say you guys shouldn't have gone? Well, I mean, you're not okay, right?

Speaker I'm very much touched by the blacklist. My the person with whom I identified most strongly my entire life. My Uncle Ned, for whom I am sort of named. And he was the middle of three sons. I'm the middle of three sons. He's the only one who left home. I'm the only one left. He went to Hollywood and became a writer. I went to Hollywood. It. So it is a very strong connection between me and my uncle. And he was blacklisted. And I could say safely say that he died at age 52 because of the impact of the blacklist.

Speaker His wife killed herself much because of the blacklist.

Speaker So, yes, I mean, I was personally very, very deeply affected by the blacklist and indeed had some real wrestles with myself about whether to go and ask Hussan to teach me how to direct at the time in which I went and interviewed him in the first place. But I did the Oscar. But when he got the Oscar, I thought, good