Speaker I remember being there at the Metropolitan Museum with Marilyn dead, but I don't think it's the same day.

Speaker Well, I mean, it's a different day because what I remember about that day was the way she was dressed. We met her. She was I remember she had beige shoes, beige skirt, beige sweater, and the hair was beige.

Speaker NBC and interest rates on the east side of like Eighty Fifth Street or going into the Metropolitan Museum. I definitely never learned that. Well, made it. Doug and I were crossing the street and this woman standing on the corner waiting for us. I didn't know it was Marilyn, but I just knew we were going to meet a friend of dad and she her shoes, her legs, her skirt, her sweater face and then her hair were all one color.

Speaker And it was was incredible. It was to me, it stayed with that idea. It set a pattern for life where this is how smart you was that it coordinated beautifully. It went very well.

Speaker I think one dated her. Yeah. Which she looked like she was pretty short, weird, dark, dark hair. I know you're 10 years old. Seems so. Now when you have you know, she seemed like the perfect blond angel.

Speaker Yeah. To me, these are dark. I'm so excited about going to the museum with us. And we had the tourist. Sam gave us the tour as you as we did almost every Sunday of our lives where we went to the Met.

Speaker Talk about how she was. The noise of the museum. Welcome back.

Speaker Let's go back into this age that you are seeing. This woman, your kid, he had a nine year old kid. Does like this angel guy.

Speaker But at fifteen or sixteen, I was fifteen or sixteen. And it really starting him.

Speaker I was talking. Well, I guess I was about 15 or 16 the first time I saw her and that the way she was dressed and her whole demeanor was held such an impact on me because of my age and getting in.

Speaker You know, she was like a role model. Is it.

Speaker Oh, this is really I'd like to be like that. You.

Speaker Which is wonderful to see that just for a moment. There's a great deal of, I think, this feeling of a lot of people. And she felt that women didn't like her, that she knew. And, you know, this is sort of Gloria Steinem's track. And I was in this film also that it took women a long time, sort of till the women's movement to be able to feel and understand that she was vulnerable and have some way of identifying with her. And yet, I think to be fifteen or sixteen years old and I come across Meira role in your life in a normal way. Must have been great.

Speaker Well, I don't even think it was the name now. I was more the person I don't think women were. I focused that she was Marilyn Monroe and that was later on.

Speaker But I think we in our family, my mother loved her.

Speaker So that cameo with her always. Whereas in front of my mother. Yeah.

Speaker We heard wonderful stories, family stories and why it was always a telephone talk until, you know, so, so, so to me, she was just a friend of mom's.

Speaker And what really interested me was when she married Joe DiMaggio back to.

Speaker And we got married. The old timer games and sit in the seats.

Speaker I'd like to go back to that because I remember you telling me when we talked the other day that to you, she was a friend of your mom's and she was not tall. She was not.

Speaker She was that tall trees was kind of a little chubby when she were working.

Speaker She was a little chubby. But when she had to do a film, she slimmed down.

Speaker Yeah, but that's like normal, really. Was that you certain that she wasn't glamorous at all? She was.

Speaker Well, when I first met her the first time I met her, we've been waiting outside for like an hour downstairs and finally went upstairs to meet her. I was with my dad, as he is doing as he's wearing a towel towel, as he's holding a glass of champagne and all. I could think about why she's back backing Joe DiMaggio.

Speaker Lucky guy wasn't supposed to do it. That's my impression.

Speaker Yeah. He was like seven seventy.

Speaker That's what stays with me either.

Speaker But you also talked about the fact that she could transform into Marilyn.

Speaker Here was this and she really absolutely remarkable everyone. Yeah. She would be tall, beautiful blonde guy with the camera. She had that talent.

Speaker She did a camera with that. When you look at it, you realize autography. When you look at it through the camera lens, the place would transform. Everything would happen. She just looked great and she knew what she was doing. Even when you put make makeup, he got taller. He she stood differently. She became Marilyn. Yeah. It was a persona. Yes. And. She was. She was panicking, Joe DiMaggio.

Speaker Arthur Miller, and you got to that, you knew all of it. Yes. Were there was one such as Joe DiMaggio a little bit.

Speaker And talk about your dad. Tell it. Explain a little bit about who Sam was and Sam. How Sam.

Speaker Because Sam was around him for a long time and I think very much. Very much so.

Speaker So heartening to hear everything you are lending her here. He was well when he worked on VVS Spada in California. She was his driver. He'd never knew how to draw. Sam never knew how to draw.

Speaker She was out of work. She wasn't working. She was the girlfriend of Sam, the director, and she was driving to the studio every day and location. And that was he couldn't drive. Never, never know their relationship.

Speaker And now that's how they became such good friends. I think that period of her life. And what was that? That was that would be about 51, 51, 51.

Speaker So that was really sort of the beginning of the month. I mean, she'd maybe just done Asphalt Jungle. Certainly they were around Hollywood at that point.

Speaker She was a lovely young starlet. She was murdered. I remember him telling us about her that she was this lovely young starlet. And that's the way he thought of her and a good friend.

Speaker And. And then when she came to New York was when we got to meet her and E.T. had the same has the same birthday.

Speaker So they celebrated their birthday together, which is huge and unfathomable to you that she could conceive of.

Speaker And she wrote she would be 80 this year.

Speaker Well, it's hard to believe because she's still 36. Yeah, she's still 30 cents of every hour. Yeah. I can't even imagine her dating, you know.

Speaker And it's sad in a way that she would have thought that women didn't appreciate her because wherever we go and anybody that sees Sam's photos, they they'll they just immediately are drawn to the photos. Women as much as men. Well, I think so very much.

Speaker And they you know, they are quickly identified with her body and body. You don't have to be a celebrity.

Speaker You have to have great, you know, great legs. The one side the beach photos look like a normal person. You still are incredibly glamorous and you're still Marilyn Monroe after all these years. You know, I think women really like that.

Speaker There was a soft quality to her as well as a tough quality and very smart and very funny.

Speaker Funny, very fair.

Speaker She showed incredible sense of humor. She replied.

Speaker One of the stories that Sam told us was when he was waiting for her and she was inside putting makeup on. They were going to a premiere of a movie or something was going on. And there were a lot of photographers and people waiting outside and everybody was waiting for her. And Sam went in, knocked on the door and she said, can't come in. And there was a dark room. And she was sitting at the makeup table and he loaded what?

Speaker And he looked at me, said, oh, my God, you have so much makeup on.

Speaker And she said, it's not for the photographers. It's for all those people that are standing there waiting to see me.

Speaker My fans and I, you know, I thought that was just wonderful. She said, then I listen to the transcripts. I listened to the tapes of her voice from the last interview with the magazine, and she's out. She says that I think she was very, very conscious of her public people. Yes, she very she owed something to the to the to the fan, to the fact that the audience was there and the audience would come. And she said that. I think only as an aspect of her life they're responsible.

Speaker And she knew that that was her responsibility. And then after that was over and it was a responsibility to be glamorous.

Speaker She created Marilyn and she had to keep that.

Speaker Yeah, that was all in creation because she wanted to just walk down the street. You wouldn't even know who she was.

Speaker Right. Absolutely. Let's talk about Sam. What kind of photographer? He was a photographer. Was he at that point sort of meeting or being? Clearly, he was around celebrity. He was around movie stars. But as I told you, he has he has spoken up in such lovely tones by every photographer that seemed to have been working at that time. So my my sense of him is that he was around, he was known. He was great, generous spirit that Neil responded to totally. And each and his pictures with her. One of the things I'm kind of loving about all this is the many moons of Marilyn with the many, many people and magic we talked about. He has a very, very special you feel to all the things with him, a very and he's got this very playful, very fresh, very well.

Speaker Let me tell you, I actually consider myself a photographer. He he threw himself as an artist. He was more as a painter. He was a fine art photography. It was just just a way to make a living. And so he was never he never felt in competition with other photographers. He was always very generous. If he didn't want to do a job, he would give it to somebody else because his real love was painting.

Speaker And when he wasn't working in photography, it was painting.

Speaker Well, he was a lot of thought of her, too.

Speaker I mean, yes, you know, I mean, if you talk about photography, I think he always considered himself a photojournalist.

Speaker A lot of photography and stuff. Certainly he's in the world of photography.

Speaker It was only at the last years of his life that he was sorry he didn't do more fashion.

Speaker He liked doing weddings and bar wives snapshot quality.

Speaker What Sam has. Marilyn, you feel like is this is not a member of your family thinks you're cute.

Speaker You're romping on a beach with your husband. Yes. Yeah. That's yeah. That's the key to it.

Speaker To the photography of anybody as far as my dad. It was it's just another person and you're that person. They're not stars that I sign. Right? That's right. Right. Politicians are not powerful. This took over just somebody else. You just relate and get your picture if it can.

Speaker You be funny. Had a way of making you feel very relaxed when you were.

Speaker I think you forgot the camera was there and it was just the person that was there.

Speaker And you can see that in the other photos, not just of Marilyn, but of all the other people that he shot, that there was a connection between the camera and whoever we were once in Portugal, walking down a little street, tiny little street, and he was shooting doorways and windows. And there was a man looking out the window.

Speaker He didn't speak English and it was his narrowest street.

Speaker Called him in. Brought him into his home.

Speaker And I communicated this home and he took us into his back yard and he showed us an altar, a little ceramic pieces that he had been building for 20 years. A little while Dad was a stranger, but he saw the camera. And I think he wanted him to shoot this little. And didn't know he was famous photographer, didn't know anything. He just was able to connect with people.

Speaker Really? Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mediation between him and her. Yeah. All the way through this.

Speaker And I think dad just had something that people felt trust in him and that they knew they weren't going to be exposed by him but protected.

Speaker Also I remember a story that he shot some photos of her, but if she didn't like them, he wouldn't use them. I mean, she had total control over and once she changed the head, her she changed.

Speaker She changed. She liked the body of one photo when they had another photo. When she asked him if the only time he ever did it, he did it for her because he didn't believe in.

Speaker What filtering out the creases or blemishes that he changed, the head always pointed at another time on one of the photos.

Speaker Remember, this was funny on the side.

Speaker There was a little sculpture with mom. And my mother said, I've got to take that out.

Speaker That's a fact. They had a little baby.

Speaker So she was my mother was protective of her. So, yeah. What do you want to do? Because you thought that was the truth? It's truth.

Speaker Or one of the beautiful things that we Constantinian actually said about her. Was that one of you sort of see it, too, that she had this sort of baby fat? It was very.

Speaker I thought there was something sweet in there. So you're very warm quality. Yeah. No question of that.

Speaker With so many people are trying to get away from she used it, which which is nice. And that's that's a point that would help maybe some lot of young girls today.

Speaker All right. Let's talk about some of the really there's some very major moments here, not the least of which is the seven year itch and the whole seven year itch set up in the concept. And let's talk about less of which. Samms is the most renowned of those photographs. But that was just day almost maybe the first real photo op.

Speaker Would you say I'm setting up something that became a I think it was create creating the excitement. It was called The Shot Seen Round the World. That's right. Hoffmann. Yeah. Are literally Wilson. Sharon post. And it was the most major. I mean, the whole world knows that photo. And I think that's what his strong point was.

Speaker Well, that was his job to go find his job. Yeah. You know, the simple things that we saw originally, that shot came from.

Speaker He did a story for another magazine years before about the sailors coming into the city on Friday, make it for Friday. And he shot the girls with the at the steeplechase in Coney Island, the island with this guy going up. Their skirts were blowing up and that sold out that hold that weekend, the magazine fell out. And he always said, we have that copy. And he always said he was going to use that someday for something. And then he did with the seven year itch that came back to him.

Speaker Well, he also is just extraordinary about it. Is that her? Well, everything about it is extraordinary. First of all, her mood is great. I mean, I also think another thing that the playfulness of her is the willingness of her, the openness of her, I think is so obvious. And we have a little bit of footage of it, too, that we found just the setup of it. Not not the movie, but just looking at, for example, simple stuff, looking at her with stuff. You know, these guys there she is. And she's really enjoying it.

Speaker Meantime, Judy, measures and then a marriage, which she kind of knows because she does run after him, she stays there while a job fair is doing its job. Joe did his job.

Speaker I mean, the picture really, if you look at it today, is very tame. But that was 1954. And when they put the marquee up, it was like a 20 foot marquee of her with a skirt. And American Legion of Decency made made her take it down. And it's so tame. But think of what you wrote was extraordinary.

Speaker It's extraordinary. And it's also just extraordinary that, as I say, he was filled with goodwill about it. I think I I feel like she just enjoyed it enormously and was had the right attitude toward it, which I think that about her.

Speaker I mean, I think about her with all of the associations. Everybody is very happy to sort of foist upon her that she herself had an enormous comfort level, at least with that part of my life, and visit her. I think she did not. But I think putting her in front and particularly particularly a still camera and regardless of clothes or no clothes, she knew what she was doing.

Speaker She has other cop. Yes.

Speaker Oh, that tells a story about doing the bubble bath scene. And she was gonna do it nude. And, you know, they make you put on a bikini or something. And she said, this is ridiculous. Who takes a bath? And then with with bathing suit on. So she wanted to do it real?

Speaker No, she had a lot of confidence. I don't think those things didn't bother. And those things that also happened on the news.

Speaker You know, she got the seat and Jackson said, we don't do that.

Speaker I think he was always kind of very willing to just she had the power.

Speaker I think she was free. She was free.

Speaker She she didn't have the hangups that. Yes, she could be sides. Yeah. And it's obvious that you looked in the mirror and said, well, you know, this is good stuff.

Speaker You know, I'm sure you didn't. I'm telling you this story. But I'd like you to tell us the story of the Misfits, that it was Sam who really suggested to Arthur and the sort of story that surrounds them.

Speaker Yeah. It was during the time period where she had a miscarriage and they were in the hospital with her.

Speaker She also writes about in his book his party. So obviously, there was this.

Speaker He actually writes said, you know, Sam recommended that he adopt this thing.

Speaker Well, you played a role to cheer her up and you can focus to get her back on track. It really is. It's a pretty it's a really nice movie. I just saw the movie recently, and it's just wonderful collaboration. You did a great job. It shows what a what a great job they can do together.

Speaker I completely agree. And I think that I also think it was genius of Sam to have made that statement. And for us to actually have gone and done it because it fits her well.

Speaker Sam thought she was a good actress. I actually recommended her to play the part that you can be reading on On the Waterfront.

Speaker Actually, On the Waterfront. Was my father's project. And he was developing it for Marlon Brando and Marilyn Monroe. Could you imagine if she had had that port?

Speaker Yeah. The whole careers would've changed. Yeah. But the director who was her boyfriend didn't think that she could play the role.

Speaker I think that in that romance, I think she got a lot of that, didn't she?

Speaker I'm not one to talk about this because the other also didn't think she could do it even once she's created Marilyn Monroe and she is the sex symbol and she is gorgeous. We don't take you seriously. Not be right to become taken seriously. I think that's what dad admired about her.

Speaker That that's how you get that. That was supposed to be her part. And there was really nobody in her corner.

Speaker She was you know, there was nobody behind her in those days. You know, the women were just starting to speak up. And then she went against the studio. I mean, she really was a trailblazer in many ways.

Speaker So many guys, Sam saw that in her. He saw that, you know, she had that strength. Yeah.

Speaker He was talented.

Speaker Well, I also love that you see it that way. You know, this is the first time I've heard the word strength attached to her.

Speaker Oh, she was she fought an entire studio and she got suspended for a while and she held her ground. And she's like, well, the first did it.

Speaker And I think other people in that circle saw that in her. The people that were close to her saw that she had that strength.

Speaker What do how do you. Yes. I mean, I think it's it's it's easy using that word as great as it was, even tough. Strength is a totally different concept, you know, than to say she's kind of tough. But then there's this other side of her, too, which was so insecure, vulnerable and vulnerable. And so then sort of that became the demise of her on another level.

Speaker And so as she was searching for her family. She didn't have she wanted a family. And I think it's obvious because she attached herself to us for a while as a family. And the roster Rustin rose to Strasberg out of the Greens. So what? Each of these families all had a connection with her. Yes.

Speaker It wasn't just a man like Sam or Lee, but it was the entire family.

Speaker So you've got two families. Clearly, it's kind of sad.

Speaker It is. It is sad. I mean, and I think that was the sad part of her life. Yeah. She had that part, but then she had the other part, which was the star. She could change back and forth.

Speaker But can you imagine how exhausting that must be for a person to have to go to work and be this way and then come home? And the reality of your life and the sadness and also kind of feeling.

Speaker She made the comment that Marilyn Monroe was an albatross that she carried with it for her whole life. I mean, I feel like family. To me, it was kind of all she kind of had to push me for your relationship with Marilyn Monroe, because while you say that, you know, she wanted to be glamorous. She was this. And this took an enormous amount of strength and an enormous amount of stamina. She also is speaking of the misfits again. Speaking of Arnold's photographs with her at the end of The Misfits, after playing a part that was not glamorous, it really took her out of the Marilyn Monroe image of the Marilyn Monroe persona, which she immediately went back to with something's got to give, even though it didn't happen. The film didn't get. She wanted at the end of that film to do a real sort of Cheesecake Show with Eve. She did. She did. Yeah. They came back at the end of misfits and went into the studio, a little studio shoot, which was, you know, champagne and makeup and, you know, clothes and bikinis. And it was almost a sort of say, but don't forget you.

Speaker Yeah, it was almost like the cheesecake might have been easier for her, whereas to be the serious actress was a struggle for her. Also, she had to work.

Speaker She had to make a living, you know. And that was her job.

Speaker So I think I think she I think. Might be another side of why she had to do it was for money. I think, you know, she had to support her.

Speaker He also not taken care of by her husband's. I mean, one of the things. I don't know about that. Well, I just think it just seems that way. One of the things that one also reads about her is he was really not an object to her. There was no a reason to do anything. She didn't have tons of money. She didn't. She was. That was that was never the motive. And I want to talk about her and Arthur, because you also you experienced these two men both.

Speaker I mean, just this actually being blown away by the DiMaggio aspect of DiMaggio turns out to come around in the end of being a dear. I mean, when you understand who he was in the context of 1955, being upset by this whole thing in the world.

Speaker And he was Catholic and she was pagan, the hard combination.

Speaker But I mean, here's the guy who doesn't get it. The guy who should get it, doesn't get it. I mean, the smart guy, the brain, the person who should be able to understand creativity, should be able to understand desire for success.

Speaker You think possibly being so much in love with her just kind of blinded him to that other side that he should have gotten it, but he didn't? I think that possibly he loved her so much.

Speaker She was complex. Final thing would be hard for a lot of men not to admire her, but to actually live with her. It would be hard.

Speaker Well, Sam has some of the tender's and sweetest and most adorable and most loving photographs of her with Arthur. I think he's got the only ones with any.

Speaker Well, was just gonna say when you said that, because I always remember the joy of Marilyn. And that's the way he saw her. So maybe that's why, because he always saw her as joyful, even though he knew that there was another side. Of course, we all have that. But he saw his joy.

Speaker He took photographs of her when she was happy, like he could have taken pictures when she had a miscarriage. She didn't. He did the happy moments, you know.

Speaker Well, it looks I busy that he lists enormous joy in the photographs. When you said free to. That's exactly how you feel about these. She's she's okay with him around.

Speaker And I remember Avidan is something in. And we won't talk about those two because he taking heat. Sam photographed Avidan photographing one of them. Before we talk about that. One of the things that Abbadon said, which I think you're saying, is that Avidan I read said that he when he does a photograph with somebody, it's not him who's in the picture. You know, he well, he's trying to do is pull them out, which he did very beautifully with her in that one moment. And that's what I think, Sam. Soccer is, Joe.

Speaker And she was and she was joyful. And I I remember she has she had a wonderful life.

Speaker It was like when she started to laugh, you could almost still hear if you go back to some of the movies. Her voice and her laugh was wonderful. So I think was infectious. I think that it rubbed off on you.

Speaker And even in the movie The Seven Year Itch, it was so delightful. You know, it was the most delightful thing in her attitude and everything.

Speaker And I think that's the way he chose to see her to tell about his day of shooting those photographs of evidence of Avidan working with her. This is kind of great that he's got.

Speaker That was kind of a favorite, too, too, Marilyn. Marilyn wanted to be in Vogue magazine. She wanted to be a model. And Sam, the reason I'm talking to using her. I don't think it was too hard to do. But that's certainly not the type of girl who would be a model who would do that. Would I look at all his his models? She's just not the type.

Speaker And not to look for a bizarre. Which is what she wanted. Yeah.

Speaker What do you what do you think? You he did it.

Speaker It's you know, you have absolutely made her very happy.

Speaker Well, interestingly enough, going to Burt Stern for a moment, that was Vogue shoot. And it's the only, as you know, I mean, just for the big the big city was this was Vogue and styled by Vogue, which is I think she finally got she got what you want. But also speaking at Abbot Stern for a minute and the Xingu out of photographs that he has printed. I mean, your father did exactly the opposite. Even Arnold did exactly the opposite. They were ecstatic. They stayed Xed out. It was never to then go back.

Speaker Well, it's a little bit different because with my dad's pictures, I don't even remember her exit out anything. One time she liked one particular head and she was put on the other picture. He did that.

Speaker But you also said he just wouldn't print things, that he wouldn't even do things that she she wouldn't have liked.

Speaker Well, she had he was there to make her feel the. Well, good.

Speaker It was lucky if she had it doesn't necessarily mean that she went over it. Said, I don't want this.

Speaker I can show you. I don't think I should be trusted. The aerial shots are a different type of thing.

Speaker These are dudes. They set me loose. And she wanted some control over it. She wasn't really looking really great in those pictures. I mean, you know, a body just just wouldn't. I mean, she looked great. So it's kind of proper that she wants to protect her image. And when she was alive, I think Burt respected that. It's afterwards. I don't know too many other people that died. But he has a right to do with these pictures.

Speaker Yeah. I think this is interesting. You know what? I don't know.

Speaker I would. I wouldn't. I don't I don't think a lot of people wouldn't. But he has a right to.

Speaker He took them.

Speaker He took them. I feel protective of her. I don't want to show a picture of that. She does look good and I feel protective.

Speaker It's very true. I believe David and I, we go through these pictures and look at them and look at them. And we don't want to put anything in every photo. And we feel very.

Speaker And on every level, I know that this is maybe not very fair to say that I'm having some very big conflicts about the George various photographs, because I know that they realize they were even after the Bernsten photographs. But she looks kind of dreadful all the way through them.

Speaker I see there's a. And reinforced, which she never looks that way. You have a feeling that you're trespassing here. You do not. And I mean, there's a great difference. No matter how willing she was, she was I felt I feel like I'm mentally trespassing on her will is enough of a choice. They would towards his pictures. It's a really good one. There are some very nice ones, but there are.

Speaker But the whole just even the whole tone of this is there's such a spontaneity in so much of what Sam has with her. There is. And there is. Such as sort of, again, on and on.

Speaker They looted art. You know, she hasn't yet.

Speaker She hasn't yet been totally disappointed and sort of let my life and I know a lot of that has to do with the time that he was in her life.

Speaker There was disappointment. She was Joe. And she gained. She had it.

Speaker And she had miscarriages, you know, but the times times change.

Speaker But she was also during that time period between the two men, she was exploring herself and she was learning from where you are. And it was an exciting time in her life. Well, it's sad, but exciting.

Speaker Well, the New York area for her, I think, is just wonderful. Fantastic.

Speaker I think she blossomed know, because this is different pace. Yeah. California.

Speaker And she wanted to learn. Yeah. She was serious. She wanted to learn.

Speaker And that's what we remember a lot because we did some, you know, some things with her and her family. And she wanted to learn about what was going on, the culture of being here in New York, the theater, music, music, the art show.

Speaker I mean, Sam always thought she was very intelligent. And logic of that applied to possibly Hollywood didn't give her enough credit. Smart woman. But you've read a lot and funny.

Speaker You were watching.

Speaker What else could a man want?

Speaker But as you say, maybe not as well.

Speaker An author says it very interestingly in my Misfits film, you know, when we when we did that film eat, first thing he said to me was, I want to talk about Marilyn. That's totally fair because and I and I had a million people to talk about, Marilyn, anyway. I actually felt that that was the trigger. Somebody says to you that I was lonely. But then when we did the shoot, I said to him, I'm not trying to do a trick on you. I would never, ever do such a thing. I said, but can we talk about Roslyn? You wrote this character for this woman. And this character embodies certain things. And one of the things he said about her was about Rosalind Wise was this was a woman who had many men in her life but had no man and had no man in her life that she couldn't relationship, that she couldn't say, and she couldn't somehow crack that. And I think that that was very descriptive of her, not just this character.

Speaker Yeah, probably quite a bit, too.

Speaker But she picked I mean, she picked Ben had she not picked such a strong character. Maybe they could have banded a little bit to her. But, you know, it's like two bulls fighting together, I think going back to.

Speaker Do you remember her with. I mean, these pictures, as I get back to the Arthur pictures, they're just the only thing they're so great. And he looks like a different guy in these pictures and he does anything else.

Speaker It looks like a very sweet Harry. He looks a little warmer. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker Yes. Yes. He was warm. He was actually like you might be having a little fun. Yeah.

Speaker Him like she broke through that barrier. She was really good to him. I mean, she's she backed him up with the House committee.

Speaker She showed up in front of Congress with him. I think she was very she took a lot of heat off him.

Speaker Yeah.

Speaker And if you look at the picture, I think he really did to her at all. But the picture that dad took of her with him at the Brooklyn Bridge and if you look at the way she's looking into his eyes, that's what I love that was left.

Speaker Yeah. And that's a very popular. But it obviously didn't last. Six years later, he's gone.

Speaker Well, six years sometimes that's a life that's six years later, he meets another woman and goes, he does or she does wasn't Bontemps.

Speaker But there was one time playing a little while.

Speaker But that's never before. I'm talking about on about Elizabeth.

Speaker I mean, another woman left.

Speaker What is that, I mean, was it but wasn't it by then also in pretty bad shape by the time they got to that, as we learned when we didn't mind did that film. And by the time they got to The Misfits said they had already been going through the Montani stuff just prior to that. They were pretty estranged and they separated sort of on that movie and he moved to another room in the hotel.

Speaker But the time stuff could have changed your name one time, a few other times, but it just wasn't that important to.

Speaker Let's talk about how sexy she was, because you also have this very, you know, just in that sense to this whole great sex goddess. But then at the other time, he was so Norma Jean.

Speaker Well, Larrys. And think she was when he first met her.

Speaker No, I didn't think of her as sexy knowing her. I only think of sexy when I see a photo shoot, a movie she's been in knowing her. She was sweet. I mean, in jeans and in a sweater and a scarf around her head. That wasn't sexy. And that's the way I knew her. But when you see her up on the screen, where was that?

Speaker When did she become a heroine? She's sexy. Yeah, well, she's not right.

Speaker She's the girl next door decisively sexy. Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't thinking sexy. No, I was thinking angel. And how is she?

Speaker You are the sweetest. She took me to the circus and we were sitting right up front.

Speaker And she wasn't dressed like Marilyn. She was dressed very plain and she didn't want to be noticed. And the riggers didn't know the men that do the ropes for the acrobats. One of them came over and said they had a bet going. She was Marilyn Monroe. They said she wasn't Marilyn Monroe. Would you please tell them? And she said, thank you so much. You're comparing me to someone so beautiful. I'm not.

Speaker But I thank you. And she was she was really cute. And when she talked to me, she should we had no bodyguards. She said, call me. Hey, you don't call me Marilyn. Hey, you. Hey, there were Haystack.

Speaker So, I mean, this was a funny thing to say. And as a kid, I really thought it was funny. Absolutely.

Speaker Darling family. It's just wonderful. She thinks that you also when you say no bodyguards, no people around here until they come today. And also, well, by the time by the time of the Bert Stern setting sitting, she had people around, you know, then Pat Newcomb was around and she had whatever. But but Ed, this is Ma. Do you know him? He was Cecil Beeton's assistant. Did you. Anyway, he's lovely. Also lovely guy. He's just great about her is that she came in alone carrying two dresses over her shoulder and two of her shoes. He said, you know, she was there.

Speaker No makeup, just a regular people.

Speaker Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you hear these stories about how she kept people waiting.

Speaker You know, this whole star thing where she got a ticket the way they had to. To kept us waiting.

Speaker There was only to make. I was ready. They're ready to give the Marilyn ready for the public.

Speaker Right. How? How.

Speaker I mean, you guys. What have you. He was involved in her life all the way to the end.

Speaker Yeah. You know, my father didn't have. He was a little absentminded. And he kept introducing me to.

Speaker Of course, it took 10 years. And so, you know, we say, hey, kid, I know you. So sure was funny that way. But I didn't like the big payday she gave me. I did like being courted.

Speaker Well, the other thing that Stearns's this thing is, too, was he said he was here. He was this kid.

Speaker He was a kid that was 22 years old, that you he said I was at the bottom of the totem pole of all then by then the entourage of Vogue people and stern styles from Vogue and her people. And she was great.

Speaker And I mean, I think that that and he even compared it to us as a that they dealt with. But there is a rose with everyone given the time of day. And Marilyn walks in and she'd left her photographers.

Speaker She knew who to be good, to be smart, does what she thought of if she was professional. She really was what she really did.

Speaker She really did take she really did seize that moment. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker I think it was only ten years that she had and has created something that still is so resonant.

Speaker People don't look like that. She's pretty. She's timeless and she is forever.

Speaker And where you go in the world, it's the same reaction. You know, we get it whenever we are from people, from fans, little little kids.

Speaker Yes. She's definitely definitely cross generation. Yeah, we are. I think I told you this, but we did this James Dean film last year. I was surprised at how really much he's not really known anymore. He is interesting. We did a kind of a this sort of Time Square thing where we what we wanted to sort of the same thing I was hoping to do in Florida was with the Lee-Anne, which is to sort of get reactions to to him people that some people kind of looked up and said, you know, that is James Dean.

Speaker I'm into three films. He did three films is another one, but ones. It's up there.

Speaker But here's another thing that's been very interesting and I've learned in this is that people don't really know her at all much anymore.

Speaker The movie certainly not sort of the kids coming out, but they know where it is, where the photography for the still shots that are out there on everything. We recently were at an exhibition and some young children, some young kids, maybe eight or nine years old, came over with a photograph and asked us to autograph, which I thought. It's a little strange, but it just shows that there's another generation coming up that are fans of hers and wanted our autographs on the photo taken by art.

Speaker Well, from what you're saying.

Speaker When we were in Milan, this woman, she must win in the 80s, you know, came over to me and asked me if I had met Marilyn. I said yes.

Speaker She was actually shook a hand to touch my head. I don't know. You know, it's really powerful.

Speaker I don't get it. It's such a I don't know. I mean, I know her. I know her.

Speaker But to to be loved by people that didn't know her generations afterwards.

Speaker I mean, the fans are really something. It's such a truly love to somebody.

Speaker Whether we like it really says a lot about the ways that she was in and what these photographers, the group of Marilyn photographers have done.

Speaker All of them say, yeah, yeah, yeah, they've all captured something a little different.

Speaker And then when you put the package together, I think you you get with all these fans, you know, there's a magical thing about Marilyn you can't take a picture of. That's where there is the real good. Yeah. And really great.

Speaker And and and this is the thing about the constant thing. When you walk into that museum and as I am, I didn't see it here, but. She belongs there. Isn't that something wonderful?

Speaker You walk into a museum and hear all these photographs of Marilyn Monroe and there's nothing at all sort of publicity movie stars about them. And he's got some of those. She belongs there are works of art. Now, all of this these wonderful people over that period of time doing such great work. And she was all of their son.

Speaker John, there's something just really, you know. So we're very, very lucky. We're lucky. We have what we have.

Speaker And I think my son was watching a religion almost where you said go earlier.

Speaker And I thought, isn't that funny about that? About the seven year itch. Yeah. Local concept. She she has transcended. She has a logo, a logo for herself. Even she has transcended reality on so many levels. Is that also sort of surreal plain on what she's this, which is it's unfathomable that she was real. And, you know, it's really interesting also and I feel as you do, I mean, I just so I, I like getting I like knowing her.

Speaker And I wish she knew that. There's too much research you've done with it. Is I mean that you wish she knew. You wish that she didn't she didn't die sad and alone because you just wish that she could have really known that it wasn't tawdry and cheap and people wanted that get her that she's beloved. Maybe she knows somebody will think she does.

Speaker So you with leave it open.

Speaker Have we missed anything yet?

Speaker I don't know that I'm not defining that, you know, stories. No. I mean, there were a lot of phone calls.

Speaker Oh, yes. This is her bubble bath store. I mean, it's the same kind of stories that just show you how clever she was.

Speaker Oh, there was you know, I think she took a bath in ice cubes because she wanted to firm up the bodies before she got into it, before she got into the gown so that my mother and father were in the next room and they were waiting for her another time where they were waiting. And she said, I'll be out a little while.

Speaker I'm just doing my ice cube bath. I mean, we would hear these stories and even try to let you know what she she didn't like to wear underwear.

Speaker So the ice cubes were her former prisoner.

Speaker I guess you work out with weights because of where she used to. And she's do exercises with the broomstick.

Speaker And she used to wear her jeans into the oh show so they would form against her body.

Speaker And we have a great photo of her jeans, which I think is one of the best photos.

Speaker She used to go to the Santa Monica beach with her jeans. She buy a pair of jeans and then go to the beach and go in the water and then let them dry on her, on her.

Speaker And they both want to get into shape. And Sam took a great photo of her. And I think it's a great logo for GQ.

Speaker Well, there's also that husband where she's lying on the bed with the barbells that she worked out. Yeah. And apparently he said she said she said the same thing. She is divine. Right. Trying to beat gravity. You know, it's. Yeah, yeah. I think she was resourceful and great.

Speaker My mother used to talk about the telephone calls, but my mother was a great cook and she used to make the best chicken soup. And she I know this one time she brought it to the hotel for her and I don't know what period that was, if it was DiMaggio period or Miller period.

Speaker But something was going on and my mother's cure was the soup, chicken soup and in the soup.

Speaker But I would expect expect that that was something that she was quite loving. Oh, yeah. That kind of tender care.

Speaker And her dad has said that she had called Billy Wilder and he wasn't home. And an orgy picked up the phone and she said, whereas Billy.

Speaker And she said, it's not home. He said, well, you tell that, son. And I'm really, really mad.

Speaker It was faster than I thought. Audrey, you have a nice day.

Speaker It was you, but it was worse. It certainly was a sister. Something had happened on the set. So she was mad at him. So she was calling to yell at him and she she let Audrey have it. And then he very nicely and she says, Audrey, I have a really nice day. And I remember Billy saying back.

Speaker I think it was in 1990. I need to.

Speaker He said that, yes, there's a lot of problems, but she was really worth it. It was worth it. Do another movie with it.

Speaker Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was right at the end. It was worth it.

Speaker Well, it clearly was, because just what you got up on the screen was worth whatever she put you through. And this incredible legacy, the photographs and on the telephone like you. And I know that she just wasn't a beast on the phone.

Speaker You know, it's a good sign. You imagine today. Good bye, Bill.

Larry Shaw, Edith Shaw Marcus and Meta Shaw Stevens
Interview Date:
American Archive of Public Broadcasting GUID:
cpb-aacip-504-kk94747h31, cpb-aacip-504-jh3cz32t9r
"Larry Shaw, Edith Shaw Marcus and Meta Shaw Stevens, Marilyn Monroe: Still Life." American Masters Digital Archive (WNET). 20 Apr. 2006,
(2006, April 20). Larry Shaw, Edith Shaw Marcus and Meta Shaw Stevens, Marilyn Monroe: Still Life. [Video]. American Masters Digital Archive (WNET).
"Larry Shaw, Edith Shaw Marcus and Meta Shaw Stevens, Marilyn Monroe: Still Life." American Masters Digital Archive (WNET). April 20, 2006. Accessed May 24, 2022


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