JAMIL JAVANI GREW UP IN AN

IMMIGRANT NEIGHBORHOOD FEELING

ISOLATED AND ESTRANGED FROM HIS

DAD.

HE WAS ON THE ROAD TO A LIFE OF

CRIME AND GANG VIOLENCE YET

MOMENTS AWAY FROM BUYING A GUN

HE DECIDED TO TURN HIS LIFE

AROUND EVENTUALLY ENDING UP AT

YALE LAW SCHOOL.

HE'S NOW DEVOTING HIS LIFE TO

HELPING YOUNG MEN AT RISK.

HE SPOKE TO MICHELLE MARTIN

ABOUT HIS FIRST BOOK "WHY YOUNG

MEN RAGE, RACE AND THE CRISIS OF

IDENTITY."

IT'S PART OF ONGOING INITIATIVE

ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS AND ECONOMIC

OPPORTUNITY WHICH IS CALLED

CHASING THE DREAM.

>> JAMIL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH

FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE

TRYING TO DO WITH THIS BOOK?

>> I THINK WE ARE IN THIS MOMENT

NOW WHERE MASCULINITY IS BEING

REDEFINED.

THE ECONOMY IS CHANGING WHERE

THE JOBS THAT MEN USED TO COUNT

ON, ESPECIALLY WORKING CLASS MEN

ARE STARTING TO GRADUALLY

DISAPPEAR DUE TO AUTOMATION.

WE NOW SHARE THANKFULLY THE

LABOR MARKET WITH WOMEN AND IN

MANY CASES WOMEN ARE

OUTPERFORMING US ACADEMICALLY,

PROFESSIONALLY.

SO I THINK MEN ARE TRYING TO

FIGURE OUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A

MAN.

IF THE OLD ADVANTAGES THAT I

USED TO HAVE, THE OLD DEFINITION

OF MASCULINITY AS IT RELATES TO

MY FAMILY OR MY PARTNER CHANGING

THEN WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A

MAN IN THE 21st CENTURY.

I SEE A LOT OF BOYS AND YOUNG

MEN GOING ONLINE, GOING TO THEIR

PEER GROUP, THE STREETS LOOKING

FOR ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS.

I THINK THEY ARE FINDING IN MANY

CASES NOT GREAT ANSWERS.

WHAT I HOPE TO DO WITH THE BOOK

IS NOT JUST COMMUNICATE BETTER

ANSWERS TO THE BOYS BY SHOWING

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE, THESE

MOVEMENTS ARE HERE TRYING TO

ANSWER THE QUESTION IN NEGATIVE

WAYS.

ALSO TO HOPEFULLY HELP PARENTS

AND PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH YOUTH

TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY MIGHT

OFFER AN AFFIRMATIVE, PROACTIVE

ANSWER TO THE QUESTION.

>> TELL ME ABOUT WHEN YOU WERE

GROWING UP.

YOU TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT HOW

IMPORTANT IT WAS TO BE COOL AND

FIT IN.

THAT'S NOT UNUSUAL.

IT'S A RARE TEENAGER THAT

DOESN'T STRUGGLE WITH FITTING

IN.

>> MYSELF AND A LOT OF MY PEER

GROUP DIDN'T HAVE OLDER MALES IN

OUR COMMUNITY MUCH.

WE WERE IN A NEWLY URBANIZED

COMMUNITY.

THERE WASN'T A LOT OF TRADITION

AROUND US.

IT WAS A YOUNG COMMUNITY.

WHAT THAT MEANT IS WE WOULD

LEAVE OUR MOMS' HOUSES ON THE

WAY TO SCHOOL LOOKING FOR FATHER

FIGURES WE DIDN'T HAVE AT HOME.

WE WOULD FIND THOSE IN THE CDs

WE LISTENED TO, MUSIC VIDEOS OR

POP CULTURE IS WHERE WE FOUND

THE MALE ROLE MODELS THAT WE

WERE WISHING WE HAD IN OUR HOUSE

OR NEIGHBORHOOD.

FOR A LOT OF AMERICA THAT'S

ENTERTAINMENT.

THEY CAN SEE THE DISTINCTION

BETWEEN, HEY, THIS IS A RAPPER,

AN ACTOR.

MAYBE THEY MAKE A GOOD MOVIE

THAT'S COMPELLING AND LEAVE IT

AT THAT.

FOR US, BECAUSE THOSE WEREN'T

JUST ENTERTAINERS, THEY WERE

CLERICS.

THEY WERE SOURCES OF WISDOM,

INSPIRATION.

PEOPLE WE THOUGHT WE SHOULD

MODEL OURSELVES AFTER.

WE TOOK WHAT WAS ENTERTAINMENT

TO SOME PEOPLE AND TOOK IT

SERIOUSLY.

THAT GANGSTER SUBCULTURE IS

SOMETHING WE WERE DRAWN TO.

>> TALK TO ME ABOUT SCHOOL.

YOU DIDN'T PUT MUCH EFFORT INTO

IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T COOL OR YOU

THOUGHT IT WAS BORING?

>> THAT'S DEFINITELY THE CASE.

WHEN YOUR IDOLS ARE PEOPLE WHO

ARE THESE OUTLAW ANTI-AUTHORITY

FIGURES, IT'S HARD TO THINK THE

BORING MONOTONOUS LIFE OF DOING

YOUR HOMEWORK, WRITING TESTS IS

EXCITING OR INTERESTING.

THAT WAS HARD FOR ME TO SAY I

SHOULD BE PUTTING MY TIME INTO

THINGS THAT DON'T OFFER

IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION.

EVEN MORE SPECIFICALLY WHERE I'M

NOT GOING TO FEEL ADMIRED OR

RESPECTED BY MY PEER GROUP IF I

DO THESE THINGS.

IF I PUNCH PEOPLE IN THE FACE

PEOPLE SAY, YOU'RE COOL, TOUGH.

THERE IS AFFIRMATION I DIDN'T

HAVE WITH SCHOOL.

I ALSO FELT, TO BE HONEST, THAT

SOCIETY WAS RIGGED AGAINST

PEOPLE LIKE ME.

THERE WAS NO MERITOCRACY IN MY

MIND.

WHAT'S THE POINT IN WORKING AT

SCHOOL IF YOU THINK PEOPLE DON'T

WANT YOU TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

THEY WON'T GIVE YOU A JOB.

AT THE MALL YOU'RE FOLLOWED BY

SECURITY GUARDS.

IT ADDED UP TO A FEELING THAT

I'M NOT DESTINED FOR SUCCESS.

WHY BOTHER?

>> YOU FAILED A LITERACY TEST

AND THEY THOUGHT YOU COULDN'T

READ.

YOU TALK ABOUT THAT.

IT MADE YOU FEEL HORRIBLE AND IT

WAS A MOTIVATOR FOR YOU.

WHY?

>> IT SENT ME OVER THE EDGE.

I DOUBLED DOWN ON FEELING

REJECTED FROM THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

I DOUBLED DOWN ON FEELING

EXCLUDED FROM THE POSSIBILITY OF

SUCCESS.

I CAME CLOSE TO BUYING A GUN AND

PARTICIPATING IN ALL SORTS OF

THINGS THAT -- I WAS ONE SMALL

DECISION AWAY FROM POTENTIALLY

RUINING MY LIFE AND ENTERING A

SYSTEM THAT'S UNFORGIVING,

UNJUSTLY SO, TO YOUNG MEN.

BECAUSE I REALIZED I DIDN'T WANT

TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD I'M NOT

GOING TO BE A GANGSTER, I DON'T

WANT TO BUY THE GUN, I'M NOT CUT

OUT FOR THAT LIFE, WHAT DO I DO

NOW?

IT TURNS OUT WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE

ANYONE TO SMOKE WITH, DRINK

WITH, SKIP CLASSES WITH AND

SHARE GANGSTER FIRY TALES WITH,

GOING TO SCHOOL BECOMES EASIER.

THEN GOING TO CLASS.

YOU START TO RESOCIALIZE

YOURSELF BECAUSE YOU HAVE A NEW

PEER GROUP.

FAILING THE LITERACY TEST PUSHED

ME SO FAR AWAY I CAME BACK.

A BOOMERANG EFFECT, THINK.

>> I'M GOING TO FAST FORWARD A

LOT.

YOU GO FROM FAILING STUDENT,

FAILED LITERACY TEST, DOESN'T

CARE TO COLLEGE.

YOU GO TO YALE LAW SCHOOL AND

THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

WHAT DID YOU DECIDE TO DO WITH

ALL OF THAT?

>> MY EXPERIENCE WITH YALE WAS

THIS ABRUPT DRAMATIC

CONFRONTATION WITH PRIVILEGE.

THE IDEA THAT YOU GO FROM BEING

SOMEONE WHO FEELS LIKE YOU'RE

SCRATCHING AND CLAWING JUST TO

GET A CHANCE TO PROVE YOURSELF

LIKE THE WORLD IS IN FRONT OF

YOU.

LIKE ALL THESE JOB OPTIONS.

YOU'RE EMPOWERED.

THE INSTITUTIONS THAT SAID YOU

COULDN'T READ ARE TELLING YOU

THAT YOU'RE A GENIUS.

IT WAS AN OVERWHELMING FEELING.

I WASN'T SURE WHAT TO DO WITH

IT.

PART OF HOW I RECONCILED WITH IT

IS I DECIDED I WAS NOT GOING TO

JUST BE A STUDENT AT YALE.

I WAS GOING TO BE SOMEONE WHO

TOOK IT UPON MYSELF TO SHARE

THAT PRIVILEGE WITH AS MANY

PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.

I WANTED TO FEEL THE EMPOWERMENT

I RECEIVED, THE AFFIRMATION, THE

POSITIVITY OF YOU'RE SMART,

CAPABLE.

THERE IS A WORLD OUT THERE THAT

YOU CAN BE SUCCESSFUL IN AND A

PLACE WHERE YOU CAN BELONG.

I WANTED TO EVANGELIZE THAT

MESSAGE.

>> ONE THING THAT'S INTERESTING

ABOUT THE BOOK IS WE SPENT TIME

ON YOUR PERSONAL STORY.

YOU MARRY THAT PERSONAL STORY TO

WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TALKING

ABOUT AROUND THE WORLD.

VIOLENT EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS ALL

OVER THE WORLD THAT YOUNG MEN

ARE ATTRACTED TO.

WHY ARE SO MANY YOUNG MEN, IN

YOUR VIEW, ATTRACTED TO THESE

VIOLENT EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS?

LOOKING AT IT FROM THE OUTSIDE

YOU THINK THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

WHAT HAVE YOU COME UP WITH?

>> I TRY IN THE BOOK TO CONNECT

THE DOTS BETWEEN GANG VIOLENCE,

JIHADIST TERRORISM AND WHITE

SUPREMACIST VIOLENCE.

TOO OFTEN MINORITY GROUPS ARE PA

THOL -- PA THOL JAZZED AS HAVING

THESE PROBLEMS UNIQUELY.

THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT VIOLENT

MOVEMENTS THAT APPEAL TO YOUNG

MEN IN DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED THINKING

ABOUT THIS AS MOSTLY AN ECONOMIC

PROBLEM.

THAT POVERTY EXPLAINS THIS.

THE MORE I DUG IN, THE MORE I

TRIED TO UNDERSTAND THE

COMPLEXITY OF THE PROBLEM WHY

MIDDLE CLASS KIDS WERE LEAVING

TO JOIN ISIS OR SYRIA.

MIDDLE CLASS KIDS WERE AT THE

CHARLOTTESVILLE VALLEY TWO YEARS

AGO.

WHAT I FOUND IS THESE MOVEMENTS

ARE EXPERTS AT REACHING YOUNG

MEN ON DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES.

THEY EXPERTLY ECHO THE ANGER

THAT A LOT OF YOUNG MEN FEEL.

TEENAGE ANGST OR THE ANGST OF A

YOUNG PERSON IS SOMETHING WE CAN

RELATE TO.

MOST OF US LOOK BACK AT PICTURES

OF OURSELVES AND WONDER WHO THAT

PERSON WAS.

WHAT THESE MOVEMENTS DO WELL IS

SEND A MESSAGE OF THE REASON YOU

FEEL THAT WAY IS THE WORLD IS TO

BLAME.

NOT THAT IT'S SOMETHING TO WORK

THROUGH OR LOVING ADULTS MIGHT

HELP YOU COPE WITH THE FEELINGS

BUT YOU SHOULD BE RESPONDING

WITH MORE ANGER AND MORE

RESENTMENT.

YOU SHOULD HATE PEOPLE.

WHETHER IT'S HATE THE WEST OR

HATE YOUR RIVAL NEIGHBORHOOD,

HATE IMMIGRANTS AND NEWCOMERS.

THEY ARE PICKING A TARGET AND

MAKING YOU PERSONALIZE THE ANGER

YOU FEEL INSIDE.

THEY DO IT WELL.

THEY OFFER BROTHERHOOD AND

CAMARADERIE.

THEY SAY WE WANT YOU TO BE PART

OF US, ONE OF US.

WE WANT TO WALK BESIDE YOU IN

LIFE.

TO AN ISOLATED, LONELY YOUNG MAN

THAT CAN BE A VERY APPEALING

MESSAGE.

A LOT OF GUYS WHO JOIN THE

MOVEMENTS ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE

SEEKING MENTOR SHIP FROM OLDER

MEN, FRIENDSHIP, CAMARADERIE.

THESE MOVEMENTS, ESPECIALLY WITH

THE WAY THEY USE THE INTERNET

ARE ABLE TO PINPOINT WHERE YOU

MIGHT FIND THE ISOLATED YOUNG

MAN IN NEED OF A FRIEND.

>> A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE

BEEN STUDYING TERRORISM FOR

QUITE SOME TIME HAVE MADE THE

CONNECTION.

WHAT HAVE YOU ADDED THAT'S NEW?

>> I HOPE I HAVE ADDED THAT WE

HAVE AN IMPULSE TO WANT TO SEE

THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEMS AS

EQUALLY DRAMATIC AS THE PROBLEM

ITSELF.

WHAT I MEAN IS WE RECOGNIZE

THESE ARE GLOBAL ISSUES,

INTERNATIONAL ISSUES.

THEY ARE THREATENING THE

NATIONAL SECURITY OF NATIONS

ACROSS THE WORLD.

THEY ARE THREATENING THE SAFETY

OF NEIGHBORHOODS ACROSS AMERICA.

YET WE ARE HOPING FOR A NATIONAL

OR INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE.

THAT THERE IS SOME SORT OF --

ALL THE COUNTRIES COULD GET

TOGETHER AND WE COULD FIX THE

PROBLEMS.

A LOT OF IT IS LOCAL.

THAT'S WHAT I BRING TO THE

ANALYSIS TO SAY THE REASON WHY A

YOUNG MAN JOINS THE GROUPS ISN'T

BECAUSE HE'S THINKING ABOUT

FOREIGN POLICY.

A LOT OF IT COMES FROM THE PAIN

HE FEELS INSIDE.

HE LOST HIS MOM OR HIS FATHER

ISN'T AROUND OR HE HAD A

NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE AT SCHOOL OR

HE'S IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE THE

POLICE AREN'T KEEPING PEOPLE

SAFE.

THERE ARE THINGS GOING ON ON THE

GRASSROOTS LEVEL THAT MAKE THESE

GROUPS APPEALING.

I TRY TO BRING THAT.

THAT'S PARTLY WHY I TELL MY OWN

STORIES.

I TALK ABOUT THE PERSONAL LIVES

OF YOUNG MEN.

I FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO

RECIPROCATE THE HONESTY AND

VULNERABILITY BY SAYING, YEAH,

THE FEELING OF ISOLATION THAT

THE GROUPS ARE PREYING ON, I

FELT THAT.

I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO FEEL

HOPELESS.

THAT'S WHAT I BRING TO THE

TABLE, THINK.

THE LOCAL, PERSONAL

UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S GOING ON

IN THE LIVES OF YOUNG MEN.

>> WHAT ARE SPECIFIC THINGS YOU

WOULD LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE DOING

TO ADDRESS THIS GLOBAL MALAISE,

I WOULD CALL IT, AMONG SOME BOYS

AND MEN THAT HAS IMPLICATIONS

FOR EVERYBODY.

>> ONE THING I ADVOCATE A LOT

ESPECIALLY WITH PARENTS,

TEACHERS OR PEOPLE WORKING WITH

YOUNG PEOPLE, YOUNG MEN IN

PARTICULAR, IS BRIDGING THE GAP

BETWEEN ONLINE AND IN-PERSON

COMMUNICATION.

WHAT I MEAN IS WE ARE SEEING

MORE YOUNG PEOPLE SPENDING THEIR

TIME ON THEIR PHONE, THEIR iPAD.

THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT THE

WORLD THROUGH INSTAGRAM,

TWITTER, FACEBOOK.

YET THEY ARE NOT SPEAKING TO

ADULTS ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE

SEEING OR SAYING.

WHAT THAT CREATES IS ESPECIALLY

FOR ISOLATED YOUNG MEN WHO ARE

MOST VULNERABLE TO BEING REACHED

THROUGH THOSE PLATFORMS BY A

VIOLENT GROUP, I THINK WE NEED

ADULTS ASKING THE QUESTIONS.

TALKING ABOUT, HEY, THIS IS WHAT

I SAW ONLINE.

WHAT ARE YOU READING?

WHO ARE YOU FOLLOWING?

THAT'S SOMETHING WE CAN DO EVERY

DAY AT OUR KITCHEN TABLES THAT

WOULD MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN

THE LIVES OF MORE MEN.

I THINK THE OTHER THING I PUSH

FOR A LOT IS THINKING ABOUT HOW

WE MAKE PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS MORE

FLEXIBLE.

IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT A

POLICE DEPARTMENT OR SCHOOL

SYSTEM AND YOU'RE SAYING HOW DO

THEY ADAPT TO THE NEEDS OF THE

COMMUNITY?

TOO OFTEN WE HAVE RIGID PUBLIC

INSTITUTIONS WHERE REFORM TAKES

YEARS.

IN THAT TIME YOU COULD LOSE A

WHOLE GENERATION TO A NEGATIVE

INFLUENCE THAT'S SET ROOT IN A

NEIGHBORHOOD.

WHAT I PUSH FOR A LOT, FOR

EXAMPLE, IS CERTAIN CHARTER

SCHOOL MODELS THAT ARE FLEXIBLE.

FORMS OF COMMUNITY POLICING MORE

ABOUT LISTENING THAN TELLING

PEOPLE WHAT THEY NEED.

I KNOW THOSE AREN'T

GROUNDBREAKING IDEAS.

I THINK SEEING THEM AS A

STARTING POINT FOR STRONGER

LOCAL INSTITUTIONS IS IMPORTANT.

>> SOME OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS

ACTIVISTS, MAYBE JESSE JACKSON

SAID AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE THE

CANARIES IN THE COAL MINES HERE.

WHAT AFFECTS BLACK PEOPLE FIRST

AFFECTS WHITE PEOPLE LATER.

COULD IT BE THE THINGS YOU'RE

TALKING ABOUT LIKE DISEASES OF

DESPAIR OR THE IMBALANCE OF

PERFORMANCE OF BOYS AND GIRLS IN

THE CLASSROOM AFFECTED BLACK

PEOPLE FIRST AND PEOPLE DIDN'T

CARE UNTIL IT STARTED TO AFFECT

WHITE PEOPLE.

COULD IT BE THAT?

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

THE IDEA THAT I'M WRITING THIS

ABOUT THE EXPERIENCES OF YOUNG

MEN.

THOUSANDS OF YOUNG MEN THAT PASS

AWAY IN THIS COUNTRY EVERY YEAR

ARE BLACK BOYS LOST TO GUN

VIOLENCE, GANGS, CHAOS.

PART OF WHY I FIGHT SO HARD FOR

THAT TO BE INCLUDED IN THE

CONVERSATION ABOUT

RADICALIZATION AND EXTREMISM IS

BECAUSE IT'S EASY TO FORGET THE

FIRST GROUP OF BOYS WE WERE

LOSING TO THE ANTI-SOCIAL

IDEOLOIES IN THE DECADE WERE

BLACK BOYS.

NOW WE SEE IT WITH JIHADISTS AND

WHITE SUPREMACISTS GETTING MORE

ATTENTION.

I DON'T WANT IT TO CROWD OUT THE

REALITY THAT WE HAVE ALLOWED A

VERY PARTICULAR GROUP OF BOYS IN

AMERICA TO SHOULDER A STRUGGLE

FOR A LONG TIME AND NOT TAKEN IT

AS SERIOUSLY AS WE SHOULD.

WE HAVE WRITTEN THEM OFF.

WE BUILT A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT A

LOT OF THEM NEVER HAD A SECOND

CHANCE.

WE ARE MORE INCLINED TO OFFER A

SECOND CHANCE TO OTHER PEOPLE.

>> WHAT ABOUT COUNTRIES WHERE

PEOPLE ARE ATTRACTED TO JIHADIST

MOVEMENTS?

DO YOU FIND THE SAME THING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SOME SHOW THAT AMONG FIRST

GENERATION IMMIGRANTS TO EUROPE

YOU FIND A GENDER DISPARITY

WHERE MORE MEN ARE ENCOURAGED TO

STUDY AND EARN A LIVING AND

WOMEN ARE DISDISCOURAGED.

IN ONE GENERATION THAT FLIPS AND

WOMEN START TO OUTPERFORM MEN IN

THE SECOND GENERATION.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE TRAPS OUT

THERE FOR A YOUNGS MAN WITHOUT A

LOT OF MONEY THE HIGHER

INTERACTION WITH POLICE, HOW

MUCH EASIER IT IS TO GET

INVOLVED IN CRIME, THE ALLURE OF

EARNING MONEY ILLEGALLY.

WHEN YOU SEE THE TRAPS IT STARTS

TO SHIFT HOW YOUNG MEN ARE

EXPERIENCING THEIR SOCIETY.

THEY MIGHT GO FROM IN ONE

GENERATION BEING THE ONES THEIR

FAMILY EXPECTS TO MAKE MONEY AND

GO TO SCHOOL TO ALL OF THE

SUDDEN THE FAMILY THINKING, NOW

WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF YOU.

YOU MADE ALL THESE MISTAKES.

>> COULD YOU TELL US A STORY OF

ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN YOU WORK

WITH WHO YOU EITHER THINK YOU

WERE ABLE TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON

OR PERHAPS WHO HAD AN IMPACT ON

YOU?

>> WHEN I STARTED THE RESEARCH

FOR THE BOOK AND WOUND UP IN

BELGIUM I WENT TO THE YOUTH

PROGRAM DESIGNED TO HELP YOUNG

PEOPLE WHO DROPPED OUT OF SCHOOL

FIND A JOB.

THEY HAD ALL THESE DIFFERENT

PROGRAMS FOR CONSTRUCTION

WORKERS, FAST FOOD WORKERS,

RETAIL.

I WENT TO ONE FOR HOUSEKEEPING.

IT WAS ALL WOMEN THERE EXCEPT

FOR ONE GUY.

HE WAS PROBABLY THE SAME AGE AS

ME, A YOUNG MOROCCAN MAN WHO

GREW UP IN BRUSSELS.

I ASKED HIM WHY ARE YOU IN THIS

ROOM?

DO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE?

HE SAID TO ME HE HAD JUST GOTTEN

OUT OF PRISON.

RIGHT BEFORE HE GOT LOCKED UP HE

HAD A DAUGHTER WHO HE MISSED THE

FIRST YEAR OF HER LIFE BECAUSE

HE WAS INSIDE.

HE CAME OUT AND SAID, I NEED TO

BE ABLE TO LOOK AFTER MY FAMILY.

IF I CAN GET A JOB CLEANING

HOTEL ROOMS, THAT'S ENOUGH FOR

ME.

I THINK HE WAS IN DANGER OF

DROPPING OUT OF THE PROGRAM

BECAUSE OF HOW HARD IT WAS FOR

HIM TO BE THE ONLY MAN.

I THINK ME BEING THERE AND

ATTENDING THE CLASS WITH HIM FOR

A FEW DAYS AND ENCOURAGING HIM

AND TELLING HIM THAT I WAS PROUD

OF HIM MADE A DIFFERENCE IN

WHETHER HE STUCK WITH IT.

HE WOUND UP GRADUATING AND

GETTING A JOB CLEANING HOTEL

ROOMS.

HE STANDS OUT TO ME BECAUSE HE

WAS FORCED TO THINK, WELL, IS IT

MORE AN AFFRONT TO MY

MASCULINITY TO BE IN THE

CLASSROOM WITH WOMEN LEARNING

HOW TO BE A HOUSEKEEPER OR NOT

TO LOOK AFTER MY FAMILY?

IT WAS MORE IMPORTANT AS A MAN

TO BE THERE FOR HIS FAMILY AND

NOT WORRY ABOUT WHAT IT MAY LOOK

LIKE THAT HE HAD A JOB THAT MEN

DON'T TRADITIONALLY HAVE.

IT WARMED MY HEART.

>> I DON'T WANT TO GLIDE PAST

THE YOU IN THIS.

>> OKAY.

THERE IS A SENSE OF URGENCY TO

THE WORK BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN

SICK.

YOU WERE DIAGNOSED WITH A

SERIOUS ILLNESS, STAGE 4

LYMPHOMA AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

HOW YOU DOING?

>> I'M DOING OKAY.

THANKFULLY, I WENT INTO

REMISSION A FEW MONTHS AGO WHICH

MADE MY LIFE EASIER.

I DON'T HAVE TO STAY AT THE

HOSPITAL ANYMORE.

I FEEL GOOD.

I STILL FEEL A SENSE OF URGENCY.

WHEN YOU STARE DEATH IN THE

FACE, IT REALLY MAKES YOU FEEL

MOTIVATED TO GO OUT IN THE WORLD

AND SHARE WHATEVER IT IS YOU

THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE LEARNED.

THAT'S HOW I FEEL AT THE MOMENT.

I FEEL THE URGENCY.

IT'S WHERE MY DESIRE TO NOT FEEL

LIKE I'M PUT IN A BOX COMES

FROM.

I REALLY WANT TO FEEL LIKE I CAN

SPEAK MY MIND AS AN INDIVIDUAL

AND SAY WHAT I BELIEVE IS RIGHT,

THAT I CAN TRY TO PUT FORWARD

SOME SORT OF UNIVERSAL MORALITY

THAT EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF YOUR

CIRCUMSTANCES MIGHT FEEL DRAWN

TO AND NOT TO FEEL LIMITED BY

THE SAME THINGS THAT USED TO

TICK ME OFF AS A YOUNG MAN WHICH

IS PEOPLE JUDGE YOU, STEREOTYPE

YOU AND THINK THEY KNOW

SOMETHING ABOUT YOU BECAUSE OF

WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR

TALKING TO US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.