>> WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AMERICAN

IS TO TAKE TO THE ROAD.

>> MOBILITY IS ESSENTIAL TO

FREEDOM.

>> DISCOVERY, FREEDOM.

>> THE NOTION OF DRIVING WHILE

BLACK REMINDS US THAT'S NOT

AVAILABLE TO ALL AMERICANS.

>> TO BE ABLE TO MOVE FREELY.

WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE IT'S

NEVER BEEN EVERYBODY'S RIGHT.

>> THERE ARE STILL SO MANY

DANGERS.

>> WE HAVE TO ENGAGE HISTORY

WITH THE KIND OF BRUTAL HONESTY.

♪

>>> HELLO, I'M RAFAEL PI ROMAN.

YOU NO E THE CLIP WE JUST SAW

WAS A PREVIEW OF "DRIVING WHILE

BLACK," A NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY

THAT CHRONICLES THE HISTORY OF

THE COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN

AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND THE

AUTOMOBILE AND THE SERIES OF

PARADOXES THAT THAT RELATIONSHIP

HAS ENGENDERS.

FROM SLAVELY TO JIM CROW TO THE

CIVIL RIGHTS ERA TO THE PRESENT

DAY, THIS DOCUMENTARY BY

ACCLAIMED HISTORIAN DR. GRETCHEN

SORIN AND AWARD WINNING DOM MEN

TARN RIC BURNS EXPLAINS HOW THE

RIGHT TO MOVE FREELY AND SAFELY

ACROSS AMERICA HAS BEEN -- AND

JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT

"DRIVING WHILE BLACK," THE

FILM'S DIRECTORS, GRETCHEN SORIN

AND RIC BURNS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US

TODAY.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> THANKS, RAFAEL.

>> SO, GRETCHEN, THE AMAZING

THING ABOUT THIS FILM IS HOW

THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT THAT YOU

COVER OPENS UP A WINDOW TO THE

WHOLE, ALMOST TO THE ENTIRE

AFRICAN-AMERICAN EXPERIENCE IN

THIS COUNTRY.

SO, LET ME BEGIN WITH THE

OBVIOUS QUESTION, HOW DOES THIS

PROJECT COME TO BE?

WHAT WAS IT GENESIS?

>> I WAS WORKING ON AN

EXHIBITION, I'M AN EXHIBITION

KUR YEAH OR THE, AND I WAS

WORKING ON AN EXHIBITION ON THE

HISTORY OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN

SARATOGA SPRINGS, NEW YORK,

WHICH IS A RESORT COMMUNITY.

AND A COLLEAGUE OF MINE HANDED

ME A XEROXED PAGE THAT HAS THE

COVER OF THE NEGRO MOTORIST

GREEN BOOK.

WELL, I HAD NEVER HEARD OF IT.

AND I WAS SURPRISED THAT SOMEONE

WHO STUDIED AFRICAN-AMERICAN

HISTORY THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING

THAT I JUST HAD ABSOLUTELY NO

IDEA ABOUT.

AND I WANTED TO KNOW MORE.

SO, I REALLY STARTED THE

RESEARCH LOOKING AT THE GREEN

BOOK AND IT JUST EXPANDED AND

EXPANDED AND EXPANDED.

THE MORE I DUG INTO IT.

AND I REALIZED THAT THE GREEN

BOOK WAS REALLY JUST A LITTLE

PART OF THE STORY AND THAT THE

STORY WAS REALLY A STORY ABOUT

THE AUTOMOBILE AND THE

AFRICAN-AMERICAN EXPERIENCE AND

HOW IT WAS DIFFERENT FROM THE

WHITE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE WITH

THE AUTOMOBILE.

AND, OF COURSE, WHEN YOU'RE

TALKING ABOUT THE AUTOMOBILE,

YOU OPEN UP AN ENTIRE WORLD THAT

REALLY TALKS ABOUT TRAVEL AND

VACATIONS AND TRANSPORTATION

ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HOW WE

DECIDED TO BECOME A NATION OF

DRIVERS INSTEAD OF A NATION OF

PEOPLE WHO TOOK PUBLIC

TRANSPORTATION.

>> AND RIC, HOW DID YOU GET

INVOLVED IN THE PROJECT?

>> I'VE KNOWN GRETCHEN SINCE

BACK THE LATE 19 90s AND

GRETCHEN WAS A REMARKABLE

ON-CAMERA INTERVIEWEE FOR THAT,

TALKING ABOUT EARLY NEW YORK,

SO, WE'VE BEEN KIND OF

UNINDIETED COCONKON -CONSPIRATOG

ON AND OFF.

AND SHE SAID, RIC, I WANT YOU TO

LOOK AT THESE IMAGES AND POPPED

OPEN HER LAPTOP, SHOWED ME

HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF IMAGES

SHE HAD COLLECTED OVER THE YEARS

ABOUT KIND OF, LIKE, THE

AMERICAN ROAD, THE WORLD OF THE

AMERICAN CAR AND THE HIGHWAY

FROM THE EARLY 20th CENTURY DOWN

THROUGH THE EARLY 21st CENTURY,

AED WHAT WAS UNCANNY, THERE WAS

THIS DOUBLE EXPERIENCE, THE

PARADOXAL EXPERIENCE, AS YOU

SAID, RAFAEL, IN WHICH -- IT'S A

WORLD THAT, YOU KNOW, WHITE

AMERICANS CAN SEE.

THE ROAD SIGNS AND THE HOTELS

AND THE RESTAURANTS.

BUT THERE ARE THESE THINGS WHICH

WERE REALLY SHOCKING TO SEE, YOU

KNOW, COMING INTO A TOWN IN

NORTH CAROLINA, THE KKK RIGHT

NEXT TO THE ROTARY CLUB, YOU

KNOW, ABOVE THE MAIN STREET OF

GREENVILLE, TEXAS, GREENVILLE,

THE BLACKIST SOIL, THE WHITEST

PEOPLE.

SO, YOU SEE, LIKE, WOW, THE

AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE LANDSCAPE

HAS BEEN HAUNTED FROM THE

BEGINNING WITH THIS DOUBLE

INSCRIPTION, YOU KNOW, AND THAT

THE WAY, AS YOU SAID, RACE BASED

MOBILITY HAS BEEN UNEQUAL IN

AMERICA FROM THE START.

AND BY THE END 0 OF THAT

DISPLAY, GRETCHEN HAD SOLD ME.

THIS WAS GOING TO BE THE NEXT

PROJECT THAT I WAS GOING TO WORK

ON AND SHE AND I HAVE BEEN

WORKING ON IT FOR THE LAST FIVE

YEARS.

>> WOW.

AND GRETCHEN, AS I SAID, THE

FIRST PARADOX, OF COURSE, IS THE

FACT THAT WHILE THE AUTOMOBILE

ALLOWED AFRICAN-AMERICANS TO

LEAVE THE INDIGNITY OF JIM CROW

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, IT

CREATED A WHOLE NEW SET OF

PROBLEMS, YOU KNOW, REAL FEARS,

REAL THREATS ON THE ROAD AND A

WHOLE NEW SET OF INDIGNITIES.

TALK ABOUT THAT FIRST PARADOX.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT WAS

DANGEROUS FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS

TO GO OUT ON THE ROAD.

IT TOOK A LOT OF COURAGE.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW, AS YOU WERE

TRAVELING ACROSS THE COUNTRY,

WHERE YOU WOULD BE WELCOME.

AND ESPECIALLY BEFORE THE

INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM,

AFRICAN-AMERICANS WOULD HAVE TO

DRIVE THROUGH THESE SMALL TOWNS.

WELL, YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU

COULD ENCOUNTER WHEN YOU WERE

GOING THROUGH THESE SMALL TOWNS

AND THERE WERE MANY STORIES OF

PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, DROVE

THROUGH A TOWN AND THEY HAPPENED

TO COME UPON A LYNCHING OR THERE

WAS AN ANGRY WHITE MOB THAT

ACCOSTED THEIR CAR.

SO, YOU REALLY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT

COULD HAPPEN AND IF YOU COULD

IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WHEN

YOU GOT INTO A CAR ACCIDENT.

THERE WERE ONLY 200

AFRICAN-AMERICAN HOSPITALS

THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE UNITED

STATES, SO, IF YOU WERE IN A CAR

ACCIDENT, FIRST OF ALL, THE

WHITE PEOPLE WOULD BE TAKEN BY

WHITE AMBULANCE, BECAUSE THE

AMBULANCES WERE SEGREGATED, TO

THE HOSPITAL FIRST AND ONLY THEN

WOULD THE BLACK AMBULANCE BE

ALLOWED TO COME IN.

MANY OF THE AMBULANCES WERE

CONTROLLED BY THE FUNERAL HOMES,

SO, YOU WERE ACTUALLY RIDING IN

WHAT WAS CALLED A COMBINATION

COACH, WHICH WAS -- IT WAS BOTH

AN AMBULANCE AND A HEARSE, THAT

IT COULD BE CONVERTED, DEPENDING

ON WHETHER THE PERSON IN THE

BACK WAS ALIVE OR DEAD.

SO, YOU COULD IMAGINE WHAT THAT

MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE, IF YOU WERE

TRAVELING AND YOU HAD TO BE

TAKEN TO A HOSPITAL.

AND MANY PEOPLE WENT FROM

HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL TO HO

HOSPITAL, BECAUSE NO HOSPITAL

WOULD ACCEPT THEM AS

AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

SO, THOSE ARE JUST REALLY A FEW

OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

>> AND THEN OF COURSE, THE

INDIGNITIES, BECAUSE IT WAS A

RARE GAS STATION OR RESTAURANT

OR HOTEL OR MOTEL THAT

AFRICAN-AMERICANS COULD

PATRONIZE ON AMERICAN ROADS.

BUT THAT BRINGS US TO THE SECOND

PARADOX, WHICH IS, AS A RESULT

OF THAT, A WHOLE NEW NETWORK,

AND THIS IS NEW TO ME, A WHOLE

NEW NETWORK OF MOSTLY

AFRICAN-AMERICAN-OWNED

BUSINESSES SPROUTED UP ACROSS

THE COUNTRY, HOTELS, MOTELS,

RESORTS, YOU NAME IT, THAT

CREATED A NEW POWER BASE FOR

AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND A WHOLE

NEW COMMUNITY THAT

AFRICAN-AMERICANS COULD SHARE.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, BECAUSE

AFRICAN-AMERICANS WANTED TO

TRAVEL.

THEY WANTED TO SEE THE COUNTRY,

AND SO, IF YOU TRAVELED, YOU

NEEDED GUEST HOUSES AND TOURIST

HOMES, RESTAURANTS, PLACES TO

STOP AND EAT.

AND GAS STATIONS.

AND SO, THIS NETWORK,

PRIMARILY -- PRIMARILY ON THE

EAST COAST TO THE MISSISSIPPI

AND THEN MANY OF THEM WERE ALSO

ON THE WEST COAST, NOT AS

MANY -- NOT AS MANY WEST OF THE

MISSISSIPPI TO THE WEST COAST,

BUT THERE WAS A LARGE NETWORK OF

VIBRANT AFRICAN-AMERICAN

BUSINESSES THAT SERVED THIS

MARKET.

THE IRONY IS, THOSE BUSINESSES

GO OUT OF BUSINESS, MANY OF

THEM, MOST OF THEM GO OUT OF

BUSINESS WHEN AFRICAN-AMERICANS

START TO FREQUENT PUBLIC

ACCOMMODATIONS THAT ARE OPEN TO

EVERYONE.

SO, WHEN HILTON HOTEL, WHEN

HOWARD JOHNSON, ARE NOW

AVAILABLE TO AFRICAN-AMERICANS,

THEY GO BECAUSE THEY CAN,

BECAUSE THEY WORKED SO HARD TO

BREAK THESE PLACES OPEN AND THAT

KILLED MANY OF THE BLACK

BUSINESSES.

BUT AS, AND THIS IS A POINT THAT

I THINK RIC MAKES VERY

ELOQUENTLY, THAT URBAN RENEWAL

DESTROYS SO MANY BLACK

COMMUNITIES AND BLACK

NEIGHBORHOODS THAT -- THAT'S

ANOTHER WAY THAT THESE

BUSINESSES GET TAKEN, THEY GET

TAKEN BY IMMINENT DOMAIN.

>> RIGHT, SO, TALK ABOUT THAT,

RIC.

TALK ABOUT HOW THE DECISION TO

MAKE AMERICA A NATION OF DRIVERS

ON THE ONE HAND, BY THE CREATION

OF THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY

SYSTEM, WAS A POSITIVE FOR

AFRICAN-AMERICANS, BECAUSE IT

MADE TRAVEL SAFER, ON THOR HAND,

IT HAD THIS EFFECT THAT GRETCHEN

JUST TALKED ABOUT.

ELABORATE ON THAT.

>> IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

ALL THE ISSUES THAT HAVE TO DO

WITH MOBILITY HAVE TO DO WITH

POWER, HAVE TO DO WITH WHO

CONTROLS THE POWER, THE POWER TO

MOVE, WHERE YOU CAN GO, WHEN YOU

CAN GO, HOW YOU CAN GO.

AND WHEN THE REMARKABLE

41,000-MILE EVENTUALLY LONG

INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM STARTS

BEING BUILT IN THE 1950s, THE

QUESTION IS ALSO, LIKE, WHERE

ARE THOSE HIGHWAYS GOING TO BE

BUILT?

AND WHEN ANY OF THEM COME TOLL

YOUR TOWN, OR CITIES, THERE'S

ENORMOUS STRUGGLE TO SAY, NOT IN

MY BACKYARD.

AND, OF COURSE, THE BACKYARDS IN

WHICH THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY

SYSTEM BUILT WAS ALMOST

INVARIABLY IN THE BACKYARDS OF

PEOPLE OF COLOR.

IF YOU JUST TAKE 10, ONE OF THE

LEGENDARY, YOU KNOW, INTERSTATE

HIGHWAYS, IT GOES FROM, LIKE,

RIGHT ACROSS THE BOTTOM OF

AMERICA, YOU KNOW, WHERE IT GOES

THROUGH IN NEW ORLEANS, FOR

EXAMPLE, IS RIGHT THROUGH THE

HEART OF ONE OF THE MOST VIBRANT

BLACK COMMUNITIES, WHICH NOW HAS

VERY, VERY POIGNANTLY PAINTED

MURALS ON THE PILOTS OF THE

OVERPASSES, YOU KNOW, THE

FIGURES OF THE -- OF THE KIND OF

LEGENDARY MEN AND WOMEN WHO WERE

THE -- KIND OF THE LEADERS OF

THOSE COMMUNITIES, INCLUDING,

YOU KNOW, WYNTON MARSALIS'S

FATHER.

THE MARSALIS HOTEL WAS A FAMOUS

WEIGH STATION ALONG THE ROUTE OF

THE NEGRO MOTORIST GUIDE

ITINERARY ACROSS AMERICA.

ALL THE WAY OUT TO LOS ANGELES,

WHERE, ONCE AGAIN, RIGHT THROUGH

CENTRAL AVENUE IN LOS ANGELES,

WHAT YOU FIND IS THAT, YOU KNOW,

THIS POOR COMMUNITY AND THE

COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, DID NOT

HAVE THE POLITICAL POWER TO

PREVENT THE HIGHWAY, INTERSTATE

HIGHWAY FROM CRASHING THROUGH

THEIR DOMAIN.

>> YOU KNOW, THE FILM CULMINATES

WITH WHAT MOST OF US ARE

FAMILIAR, ASSOCIATE WITH DRIVING

WHILE BLACK, WHICH IS THE

PRESENT DAY AND THE

CONFRONTATIONS BETWEEN THE

POLICE AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN

MOTORISTS.

AND THIS IS WHERE, IN THE

DOCUMENTARY, THE SCHOLARS STOP

TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF

THIS EXPERIENCE AS OBJECTIVE

SCHOLARS AND START TALKING ABOUT

PARTICIPANTS OR PROTAGONISTS OF

THAT STORY, AND GRETCHEN, YOU'RE

ONE OF THEM.

YOU TALK ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE

AS A PARENT.

TELL US ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE.

>> YOU KNOW, MY KIDS GREW UP IN

A RURAL AREA, COOPERSTOWN, NEW

YORK, AND IT'S A BEAUTIFUL AREA

AND IT'S A GREAT PLACE TO RAISE

CHILDREN.

BUT WHEN MY SON TURNED THE AGE

TO GET HIS LICENSE, DRIVER'S

LICENSE, I HAD TO GIVE HIM THE

TALK.

THE TALK THAT EVERY

AFRICAN-AMERICAN PARENT GIVES

THEIR CHILD.

AND THAT TALK IS -- YOU'VE GOT

TO BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU'RE

STOPPED BY THE POLICE.

BECAUSE THE POLICE DON'T SEE YOU

AS A GOOD KID.

THEY SEE YOU AS A BLACK KID.

AND IT WAS INTERESTING, MY SON

WORKED ON THIS PROJECT AS A

COPRODUCER FOR THE FIRST THREE

YEARS OF ITS LIFE AND WHEN WE

GATHERED ALL OF THE SCHOLARS

TOGETHER, HE HEARD SCHOLAR AFTER

SCHOLAR AFTER SCHOLAR SAID THE

SAME THING.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE NEVER BELIEVED

IT, YOU KNOW, MOM, COME ON, MOM.

MOM, I'M OKAY, EVERYTHING WILL

BE FINE.

BUT I THINK HE STARTED TO

UNDERSTAND THE REAL DANGER FOR

AFRICAN-AMERICAN -- ESPECIALLY

FOR MEN, BUT IT SEEMS NOW IT'S

ALSO FOR WOMEN, WE'VE SEEN

SEVERAL EXAMPLES THAT ARE --

THAT ARE PRETTY FRIGHTENING.

YOU KNOW, THAT -- WE'RE NOT

SAYING, WE NEVER SAY THAT POLICE

ARE BAD, WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT

POLICE ARE BAD.

WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS, YOU DON'T

WANT TO ENCOUNTER THAT ONE

POLICEMAN OR POLICEWOMAN WHO

ONLY SEES THE COLOR OF YOUR

SKIN.

AND DOESN'T -- AND IS AFRAID OF

YOU FOR THAT REASON.

IS TERRIFIED OF YOU, MORE

TERRIFIED OF YOU THAN PERHAPS

YOU ARE OF THEM.

>> IN THE FILM, YOU SAY AT SOME

POINT THAT SOMETIMES YOU'RE

HOPEFUL AND SOMETIMES YOU DON'T

HAVE SO MUCH HOPE.

WHAT GIVES YOU HOPE AND WHAT

TAKES IT AWAY?

>> OH, THAT'S A BRILLIANT

QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT

GIVES ME HOPE IS THAT

ACCOMPLICES LIKE RIC BURNS ARE

WILLING TO SAY, YOU KNOW,

LET'S -- WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING

LIKE THIS.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TIMES IN

AMERICAN HISTORY WHEN WHITE

AMERICANS HAVE JOINED WITH

AFRICAN-AMERICANS TO TRY AND

MAKE CHANGE.

AND THAT'S REALLY ONE OF THE

KINDS OF THINGS THAT GIVES ME

HOPE.

EVERY TIME I SEE OR HEAR OF

ANOTHER BLACK MAN BEING MURDERED

BY THE POLICE, I -- YOU KNOW, MY

HEART SINKS A LITTLE BIT.

YOU KNOW, I THINK, WHEN WILL

THIS STOP, WHEN WILL THIS STOP

BEING JUST A REGULAR PART OF OUR

EXISTENCE?

>> LET'S HOPE IT WILL STOP SOON.

AND WE HAVE TO STOP, BECAUSE

WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR

JOINING US TODAY.

IT'S A WONDERFUL FILM.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, RAFAEL.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.