> THIS IS ‘METROFOCUS’ WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

‘METROFOCUS’ IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

FUNDING FOR ‘CHASING THE DREAM’ IS PROVIDED BY THE JPP FOUNDATION.

ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR ‘CHASING THE DREAM’ IS PROVIDED BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, ♪

> WELCOME TO ‘METROFOCUS,’ I’M JACK FORD.

THE REVEREND AL SHARPTON HAS SPENT A LIFETIME FIGHTING FOR SOCIAL AND RACIAL INJUSTICE.

IN THE 1980s AND 1990s, HE WAS A FIXTURE WITHIN NEW YORK CITY AND ALSO WITHIN THE NEW YORK CITY TABLOIDS, A DISTINCTION HE NOTES HE SHARED WITH YET ANOTHER NEW YORK FIGURE AT THE TIME, DONALD TRUMP.

TODAY, OF COURSE, DONALD TRUMP IS THE PRESIDENT AND REVEREND SHARPTON FINDS HIMSELF AT THE FOREFRONT ONCE AGAIN OF A NOW NATIONAL PROTEST MOVEMENT AGAINST SYSTEMIC RACISM.

AFTER GEORGE FLOYD WAS KILLED BY POLICE IN MINNEAPOLIS, TIPPING OFF MASSIVE DEMONSTRATIONS, REVEREND SHARPTON WAS ASKED TO DELIVER GEORGE FLOYD’S EULOGY AND IN THAT EULOGY, HE INVOKED GEORGE FLOYD’S DEATH AS A CALL TO ACTION AGAINST INJUSTICE.

THAT SAME CALL TO ACTION FOR ALL AMERICANS IS THE THEME OF REVEREND SHARPTON’S NEW BOOK.

IT IS CALLED ‘RISE UP: CONFRONTING A COUNTRY AT THE CROSSROADS.’

AND HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE BOOK AND HIS EXPERIENCES AND WHAT IS GOING ON IN OUR NATION AT THIS TIME IS THE PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER OF THE NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK, REVEREND AL SHARPTON.

REVEREND SHARPTON, WELCOME.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU, JACK.

GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.

WE HAVE A LOT TO TALK ABOUT HERE, SO, LET’S START WITH THE BOOK.

AND I THINK THAT THE TWO QUESTIONS THAT ARE OFTEN COMPELLING WHEN YOU’RE TALKING WITH AUTHORS ARE, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO WRITE WHAT YOU WROTE?

AND WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO WRITE IT AT THAT MOMENT?

SO, LET ME START WITH THOSE TWO QUESTIONS TO YOU.

WHY THIS BOOK AND WHY THIS BOOK NOW?

I HAD LOOKED AT WHERE WE WERE IN THE COUNTRY EARLIER THIS YEAR AND SAW THAT AS WE HAD MADE SOME STEPS TOWARD ADDRESSING SOME OF THE RACIAL AS WELL AS ECONOMIC AND OTHER DIFFERENCES, GENDER, LGBTQ COMMUNITY, ALL OF THESE DIVISIONS, THAT WE WERE AT A CROSSROAD.

WE HAD, UNDER THE KING MOVEMENT, ALL THE WAY TO THE PRESIDENCY OF BARACK OBAMA, STARTED MOVING TOWARD A MORE INCLUSIVE AND JUST SOCIETY FOR ALL OF THE AREAS THAT I JUST REFERRED TO.

AND THEN WE SEE THE PRESIDENCY OF DONALD TRUMP, STARTED OPENLY AND UNABASHED WAY STARTED MOVING BACK TOWARD A PRE-1960 ERA WHERE IT WAS MORE EXCLUSIONARY AND MORE TOWARD A POLICY OF THE WEALTH AND THE SEXUAL, GENDER AND TOWARD THOSE THAT WERE WELL-PLACED IN SOCIETY, HAD THE EXPENSIVE OF US.

AND I SAID THAT WE, IN A DANGEROUS WAY, DECIDED THAT THE MORALS OF THE COUNTRY WERE SHIFTING FROM TRYING TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND INCLUSIVE AND BRINGING EVERYONE TOGETHER AND RAISING THOSE THAT WERE IN THE LOWER ASPECTS OF SOCIETY TO A SOCIETY THAT BEGAN TO AGAIN EMBRACE THE MORALS OF WHAT IS, MIGHT IS RIGHT, WHAT IS RICH IS TO BE GLORIFIED, AND I WANTED TO CHALLENGE THE COUNTRY AT THE CROSSROADS, WHAT ROAD WE WERE GOING TO TAKE.

WHILE I WAS FINISHING THE BOOK, GEORGE FLOYD HAPPENED, AND I WAS CALLED BY THE ATTORNEY FOR THE FLOYD FAMILY TO COME IN AND TRY AND HELP WITH THAT, RAISING THE PROFILE AND RAISING THE ISSUES AROUND THAT, SINCE I HAD BEEN DOING THAT FOR YEARS WITH MANY CASES AND THE NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK, TOWARD MANY SOCIAL JUSTICE CHANGES AND LEGAL CHANGES.

AS I CAME IN, I WENT AND AFTER SEEING THE VIDEO OF WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE, AND HEARING HIM SAY, AMONG OTHER THINGS, ‘I CAN’T BREATHE,’ I CALLED THE MOTHER OF ERIC GARNER, WHO ALSO WAS KILLED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT IN A CHOKEHOLD IN NEW YORK CITY, AND HE SAID, ‘I CAN’T BREATHE’ AND I SAID TO ERIC’S MOTHER, WOULD YOU GO WITH ME TO MINNEAPOLIS?

WE SHOULD DO A VIGIL IN SUPPORT OF THE FAMILY AND THEIR LAWYER REACHED OUT.

AND WE WENT AND DID THAT.

AND IT WAS ON THE WAY BACK, I WAS ASKED BY THE FAMILY TO DO THE EULOGY.

SO, I DELAYED THE BOOK, BECAUSE I WANTED TO WRITE THE GEORGE FLOYD PART.

AND THEN, AT THE SAME TIME, WE STARTED SEEING WHAT HAPPENED TO AHMAD AUD ARBERY COME TO THE SURFACE, BREONNA TAYLOR.

ALL THIS HAPPENING IN THE SAME MONTH, IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC.

SO, THE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK WAS TO REALLY SAY THAT WE NEED TO DECIDE WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY WE’RE GOING TO BE, WHAT IS THE MORAL CODE THAT WE’RE GOING TO LIVE BY?

AND I WANTED TO USE SOME AN ANECDOTES OF MY JOURNEY THAT POINTS TO WHY WE OUGHT TO CHOOSE THE ROAD DR. KING AND OTHERS HAD PUT US ON, AND THAT I HAD WORKED WITH THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TOWARD AND NOT CHOOSE THE ROAD OF GOING BACKWARD.

AND THAT IS THE REAL PURPOSE OF THE BOOK, IS TO CHALLENGE PEOPLE TO RISE UP AND PUT US BACK ON TRACK TOWARD BUILDING A JUST AND MORE EQUAL SOCIETY.

YOU TALK ABOUT USING YOUR OWN JOURNEY, IN SOME WAYS, AS THE PRISM THROUGH WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT SOME OF THESE ISSUES.

AND IN THE BOOK, YOU INCORPORATE MANY OF THE ISSUES THAT YOU MENTIONED ALREADY, CLIMATE CHANGE, LGBTQ RIGHTS AND IN INCL INCLUSIVITY, OF COURSE, RACIAL INJUSTICE AND SYSTEMIC RACIAL INJUSTICE IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND YOU START, EARLY ON, YOU TALK ABOUT AS A YOUNG BOY, WHERE YOU BELIEVED THAT YOUR FUTURE WAS AS A PREACHER AND YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW YOUR FAITH HAS FUELED THIS PASSAGE.

LET ME ASK YOU A COUPLE OF THINGS ABOUT YOUR OBSERVATIONS AGAIN, YOUR JOURNEY, BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT, AGAIN, BEGINNING AS A YOUNG BOY, YOU TALK ABOUT THE TIME PERIOD, AND ARE VERY CANDID ABOUT THE TERMS PEOPLE HAVE USED FOR YOU.

ON THE VERY FIRST PAGE, YOU SAY, I’VE BEEN CALLED MANY THINGS POSITIVE AND YOU TALK ABOUT THOSE POSITIVE TERMS AND YOU SAY, I’VE BEEN CALLED MANY THINGS NEGATIVE, YOUR WORDS, YOU SAY FIRE-STARTER, CONMAN.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE NOTION OF PEOPLE LOOKING AT YOU AS A SHOWMAN.

AND I THINK YOU SAY A VERY INTERESTING THING THERE, I WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN IT.

YOU SAY YOU CAME TO BELIEVE THAT YOUR OWN PERSONALITY COULD ESSENTIALLY BE, IN YOUR WORDS, A LIGHTNING BOLT FOR GOOD.

KIND OF EMBRACING THE CONTROVERSY THAT SURROUNDED YOU AT THE TIME.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT, WHEN YOU SAY IT COULD BE A LIGHTNING BOLT FOR GOOD.

WHAT I MEANT BY THAT WAS, GROWING UP AND BEING NURTURED AND DEVELOPED IN THE BLACK CHURCH, YOU LEARN HOW TO USE SHOWMANSHIP TO TRY AND GET CONVERTS.

AND YOU TRY TO ALSO BRING ATTENTION TO THINGS, BUT AS YOU DO THAT, AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO COME TO TERMS WITH, ARE YOU USING SHOWMANSHIP JUST FOR SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT, ARE YOU USING IT TO DRAW ATTENTION TO SOMETHING BIGGER THAN YOU, THOUGH YOU MAY BE THE THING THAT GRABS THE ATTENTION.

ONCE YOU GRAB IT, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THE ATTENTION?

AND THAT’S PART OF WHAT I CHALLENGE IN THE BOOK.

WE ALL HAVE CERTAIN ASPECTS AND ATTRIBUTES IN OUR PERSONALITY, BUT ARE WE USING IT FOR A GREATER GOOD OR ARE WE JUST USING IT FOR OUR OWN SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT.

IF WE DO IT FOR OUR SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT, FOR AWHILE, IT BECOMES EMPTY EVEN TO YOU.

AND I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO USE THE FACT THAT I HAD LEARNED THESE SKILLS FROM THE BLACK CHURCH AND FROM KNOWING ENTERTAINERS LIKE JAMES BROWN, TO PUT LIGHT ON SITUATIONS THAT SHOULD BE OUT IN THE OPEN AND OUT IN THE — IN THE PUBLIC ARENA, TO REALLY LEAD TOWARDS SOME REAL CHANGE.

I GREW UP IN NEW YORK, I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN BROOKLYN.

AND I WAS NOT BORN IN THE SOUTH LIKE DR. KING AND MANY OTHER CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS BEFORE ME.

SO, IN NEW YORK, TO GRAB ATTENTION, YOU HAVE TO DO DRAMATIC THINGS.

I’M COMPETING WITH TIMES SQUARE OPEN ALL NIGHT, BROADWAY PLAYS AND EMPIRE STATE BUILDING AND SO I WANTED TO USE THE — THE THEATER OF MASS DEMONSTRATION, MASS MOBILIZATION, TO THEN SAY, WE NEED TO DEAL WITH POLICE REFORM, WE NEED TO DEAL WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, WE NEED TO DEAL WITH LGBTQ RIGHTS.

GRAB THE ATTENTION, BUT THEN BRING IT SOMEWHERE TO LEAD TOWARD REAL FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, FOR EXAMPLE, SOMETHING YOU’RE QUITE FAMILIAR WITH, THERE’S ALWAYS BEEN THE PROBLEM OF HOW BLACKS AND OTHERS WERE TREATED DIFFERENTLY IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

BUT HOW DO YOU DRAMATIZE THAT?

AND I — I COMMITTED MY LIFE TO SAYING THAT I WANT TO USE WHATEVER ABILITY I HAVE TO BRING ATTENTION TO HOLD THE ATTENTION LONG ENOUGH TO EFFECT LAWS AND EFFECT HOW SOCIETY IS BUILT.

GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, RIGHT NOW, WE’RE IN THE MIDDLE, IN THIS NATION, OF DEALING WITH THE BREONNA TAYLOR CASE.

AND THERE WAS THE CONTROVERSY THAT MANY OF US HAVE RAISED AROUND THE GRAND JURY IN LOUISIANA — IN LOUISVILLE, SPECIFICALLY, THAT FOUND NO INDICTMENT THAT THEY FELT THE EVIDENCE WAS THERE TO RAISE THE LEVEL OF AN INDICTMENT FOR AT LEAST MANSLAUGHTER.

WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE DON’T UNDERSTAND IS GRAND JURIES ARE CONDUCTED BY THE PROSECUTOR.

THERE WAS A FORMER CHIEF JUDGE IN NEW YORK USED TO SAY, YOU CAN INDICT A HAM SANDWICH.

WELL, THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

YOU CANNOT INDICT A HAM SANDWICH.

MOST AMERICANS DON’T UNDERSTAND, THE ONLY ONE THAT GOES TO THE GRAND JURY IS THE PROSECUTOR.

THERE’S NO DEFENSE LAWYERS, THERE’S NO LAWYERS FOR THE FAMILY.

SO, WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THE PROSECUTOR PRESENTED OR DIDN’T PRESENT, WHICH IS WHY, IRONICALLY NOW, YOU HAVE ONE OF THE GRAND JURORS IN LOUISIANA SAYING, NO, COME OUT WITH EVERYTHING IN PUBLIC SO THEY CAN SEE WHAT WE SAW, WE HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO MAKE THIS DECISION.

AND I HAVE TO — LET ME JUMP IN A SECOND, BECAUSE YOU’RE RIGHT.

I HAVE BEEN A PROSECUTOR, I PRESENTED TO GRAND JURY.

THE NOTION OF GRAND JURY SECRECY HAS ALWAYS BEEN SACRA SANGT.

YOU HAVE A GRAND JUROR SAYING, NO, I WANT TO MAKE THIS PUBLIC.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

I DID WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS, WITH THE BREONNA TAYLOR SITUATION, FROM THE GRAND JURY, AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, WHO IS A BLACK MAN, HAS APPARENTLY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THEY DID NOT PRESENT ANY FORM OF HOMICIDE CHARGE TO THE GRAND JURY FOR THEIR CONSIDERATION.

AS YOU MENTIONED, COULD BE MURDER ONE AT THE TOP, COULD BE DOWN TO A CRIMINALLY LLY NEGLI HOMICIDE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST.

I DON’T KNOW IF I’M MAKING TOO MUCH OF THIS, BUT I’M GOING TO ASK YOU, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS A BLACK MAN.

AND YOU’RE LOOKING AT THE — WHEN THE ARGUMENT IS MADE ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM AND IT APPEARS AS IF, AND WE NEED TO KNOW MORE FACTS, CERTAINLY, THAT YOU HAVE AN ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO IS A BLACK MAN SAYING, NO, I DIDN’T EVEN PRESENT IT TO THEM, WHAT IMPACT DO YOU THINK THAT HAS ON THE ARGUMENT ABOUT BREONNA TAYLOR, IN A MICROCOSM AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IN AMACRO LOOK, DO YOU THINK?

IF YOU NEVER PRESENTED THE CHARGES OF HOMICIDE ALL THE WAY TO RECKLESS MANSLAUGHTER OR MANSLAUGHTER THAT MAY HAVE NOT BEEN INTENTIONAL BUT IT RESULTED IN THAT, WHAT MADE THAT PROSECUTOR DECIDE THAT, I’M NOT EVEN GOING TO PRESENT THAT TO THE GRAND JURY, BUT THEM TO DECIDE WHETHER THEY SAW THAT.

THAT THEN BECOMES A WHOLE DIFFERENT FOCUS FOR THE PUBLIC THEN SAYING, WELL, THEY DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG, WHEN IT WAS REALLY THAT THERE WAS NO PRESENTATION OF WHAT HAPPENED AND THAT THE GRAND JURY DECIDED WHETHER OR NOT THEY FELT IT WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.

YEAH.

THEY HAD LIMITED EVIDENCE IN FRONT OF THEM.

THEY CANNOT JUMP UP ON THEIR OWN AND SAY, BUT WAIT A MINUTE, I STILL THINK SOMETHING WAS WRONG HERE, IF IT WAS NOT PRESENTED TO THEM.

AND THE OPTION OF INDICTING ON EVERYTHING FROM MANSLAUGHTER TO MURDER WASN’T THERE.

NO ONE KNOWS THAT UNLESS, IN THIS CASE, A GRAND JURY CAME FORWARD —

RIGHT.

UNLESS WE SEE WHAT WAS PRESENTED.

RIGHT.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOME THINGS SPECIFICALLY THAT YOU’VE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK, AND ONE OF THEM HAS TO DO WITH, I THINK, THE NOTION OF — IS THIS TIME NOW A TIME WHEN THE IDEA OF PROTESTING RACIAL INJUSTICE AND LOOKING FOR MEANINGFUL CHANGE HAS MORE TRACTION THAN WHAT WE’VE SEEN IN THE PAST?

YOU WRITE, FOR INSTANCE, THAT THE GEORGE FLOYD PROTESTS ARE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE SAW AFTER FERGUSON.

DO YOU THINK — WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY DIFFERENT AND DO YOU THINK IT’S DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THAT THEY MIGHT BE MORE ENDURING AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANT, RESULT IN SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE THAT WE DID NOT SEE, DESPITE PROTESTS IN THE PAST?

YES.

THE REASON IS THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME, I’VE SEEN A DIVERSITY OF AMERICANS INVOLVED IN THESE PROTESTS.

I’VE GONE TO SOME OF THE PROTESTS, AND YOU HAD MORE WHITES THAN BLACKS.

I’VE NEVER SEEN THAT IN MY JOURNEY.

I’VE GONE TO SITUATIONS, RALLIES AND WE HAD PROBABLY THE LARGEST ONE AT THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON IN AUGUST, WHERE WE HAD TENS OF THOUSANDS COME OUT, WHERE IT’S INTERGENERATIONAL, INTERRACIAL.

SO, WHEN YOU SEE THIS AND YOU SEE MONTHS LATER, PEOPLE STILL MARCHING, I THINK IT IS PREGNANT WITH CHANGE.

PREGNANT FOR CHANGE.

BUT THE RESULT IS, LOOK AT THIS.

YOU HAVE THE GEORGE FLOYD POLICING AND JUSTICE ACT THAT, IN THE LEGISLATION, IT SAYS THAT SUPPRESSION BY LAW ENFORCEMENT ON A PERSON THAT RESULTS IN DEATH SHOULD BE A FELONY.

COMPRESSION COULD BE KNEE ON THE NECK, AS IN THE CASE OF GEORGE FLOYD, OR IT COULD BE A CHOKEHOLD, AS IN THE CASE OF ERIC GARNER IN NEW YORK.

THAT BECOMES A FELONY.

THAT POLICE RECORDS BECOME TRANSPARENT, WHERE YOU HAVE TO NOW REVEAL WHETHER POLICEMAN HAS A BACKGROUND OF CASES OF COMPLAINTS OF HARASSMENT, WHERE POLICE NO LONGER ENJOY IMMUNITY FROM PERSONAL LAWSUITS.

AND I THINK THAT THE RESULT OF THAT IS, IF A POLICEMAN KNOWS THAT NOT ONLY WILL THE CITY OR THE COUNTY HAVE TO PAY DAMAGES TO A FAMILY, BUT THAT THEY COULD LOSE THEIR HOUSE OR THEIR CAR, WOULD MAKE THEM BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY.

THAT LEGISLATION THAT PASSED THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES — WE’RE WAITING ON THE SENATE TO TAKE IT UP, WHICH IS WHY THE PROTESTS CONTINUE TO PUT PRESSURE ON McCONNELL, THE MAJORITY LEADER, THE SENATE TO PUT IT FORWARD.

IN NEW YORK STATE, AFTER ERIC GARNER, WE COULDN’T GET THE CHOKEHOLD LAW.

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GEORGE FLOYD MOVEMENT, ANDREW CUOMO SIGNED THE BILL, THE ERIC GARNER LAW, MAKING CHOKEHOLDS ILLEGAL, MAKING BRINGING OUT A POLICEMAN’S BACKGROUND.

SO, NEW YORK STATE, WE’VE ALREADY CHANGED LAWS IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

RIGHT.

LAWS WILL LAST LONGER THAN PROTESTS, BUT WITHOUT THE PROTESTS, WE WOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OR THE GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK TO MOVE FORWARD.

INTERESTING OBSERVATION, YOU TALK ABOUT LAWS LASTING LONGER THAN PROTESTS.

ONCE AGAIN, WE’RE TALKING WITH THE REVEREND AL SHARPTON, THE HEAD OF THE NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK, TALKING ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, TITLED ‘RISE UP: CONFRONTING A COUNTRY AT THE CROSSROADS.’

YOU MENTIONED PROTESTS, AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE IDEA THAT WE SAW EXTRAORDINARY PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR THESE PROTESTS ON THE HEELS OF WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD.

BUT WE’VE ALSO SEEN A REDUCTION SINCE JUNE OF THE PUBLIC SUPPORT, FOR WHATEVER POLLS ARE WORTH HERE.

AND MUCH OF THAT MUST, YOU WOULD ASSUME, BE A CONSEQUENCE OF THE ACTUAL RIOTING THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE, TOO.

SO, HOW DO YOU THEN, AS A LEADER, A SPOKESPERSON HERE, GET MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LAWFUL PROTESTS AND WHAT MANY — MANY PEOPLE AND MANY PEOPLE WHO MAY WELL BE SYMPATHETIC TO THIS MOVEMENT, ARE SAYING, WELL, THEY’VE BECOME — THE PROTESTS HAVE BECOME RIOTS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE TO TRY TO DISABUSE THEM OF THE NOTION THAT THEY ARE THE SAME, THAT PROTESTS AND RIOTS ARE THE SAME?

I THINK FIRST THAT WE MUST DEAL WITH THAT HEAD-ON AND SAY THAT, FIRST OF ALL, OVER 90% OF THE PROTESTS NEVER GOT VIOLENT.

SECONDLY, THAT SOME OF THOSE THAT ENGAGED IN VIOLENCE WERE REALLY NOT PART OF THE PROTESTS.

SOME THAT WERE WERE NOT OPERATING IN THE SPIRIT OF THOSE THAT WERE OUT THERE PROTESTING.

AND THE REASON I REFER IN THE BOOK TO A LOT OF MY JOURNEY IS, I LEARNED FROM THOSE THAT WERE LEADERS IN THE KING MOVEMENT.

I WAS TOO YOUNG TO KNOW DR.

KING, I JOINED THE MOVEMENT IN THE NORTH WHEN I WAS 12, I BECAME YOUTH DIRECTOR OF DR.

KING’S CHAPTER IN NEW YORK WHEN I WAS 13, THE YEAR HE WAS KILLED.

BUT I GOT TO KNOW, AS I TALK IN THE BOOK, MRS. KING, AND WYATT T. WALKER, HIS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WHO TAUGHT ME THAT YOU CANNOT BECOME WHAT YOU’RE FIGHTING.

VIOLENCE OR EVEN WORDS THAT ARE INCITEFUL OR THAT CAN BE EASILY MISUNDERSTOOD, WHICH I AND OTHERS WERE GUILTY OF.

YOU CAN’T LET YOUR ANGER MAKE YOU BECOME THE ENEMY OF YOUR CAUSE.

AND I THINK THAT WE’VE GOT TO DEAL WITH THE DENOUNCING THOSE THAT COME IN THE RANKS AND OPERATE IN A WAY THAT IS NOT MORAL AND ETHICAL, AS WHAT DR.

KING DID.

AND IF YOU STUDY DR. KING, AS I HAVE ALL MY LIFE, HE FACED THAT, WHERE THERE WERE RIOTS.

THE LAST MARCH HE LED IN MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE, A RIOT BROKE OUT.

SOMEONE WAS EVEN KILLED.

HE CAME BACK TO MEMPHIS TO SHOW THAT HE COULD LEAD A NONVIOLENT MARCH, THAT’S WHEN HE WAS KILLED.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DON’T TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT HAD NOT SOME PEOPLE COME INTO HIS MARCH AND TURNED VIOLENT, HE WOULD HAVE NEVER GONE BACK TO MEMPHIS TO PROVE THAT NONVIOLENCE WAS THERE.

‘THE NEW YORK TIMES’ WROTE AFTER THAT RIOT AND DR. KING’S LAST MARCH, THE DAY OF DR. KING IS OVER, HE HAD TO COME BACK BECAUSE THE MOVEMENT WAS AT STAKE.

AND THAT’S THE KINDS OF THINGS WE GOT TO CORRECT AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

THOSE THAT THINK IT’S ABOUT THROWING BOTTLES DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE HELPING THE ADVERSARIES OF THE MOVEMENT.

THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HAVE A MORAL MOVEMENT, IS YOU MUST OPERATE WITH A CERTAIN LEVEL OF MORALITY YOURSELF.

ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS INTERESTING YOU TALK ABOUT IN YOUR BOOK IS, YOU SAY THAT YOU’RE COMPARING THINGS THAT ARE SAID TO YOU REPEATEDLY BY DIFFERENT GROUPS.

AND YOU SAY ROUTINELY WHEN YOU TALK TO WHITES AND WHITE GROUPS, THEY’LL SAY TO YOU, WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE ABOUT RACE?

AND THEN YOU SAY, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MEMBERS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY, WHAT THEY WILL SAY TO YOU IS, LOOK, THINGS ARE NEVER GOING TO CHANGE.

HOW DO YOU BRIDGE THAT GAP?

BETWEEN THOSE TWO?

I THINK YOU BRIDGE THE GAP BY ADDRESSING IT AND BY GIVING THE RATIONALE BEHIND IT.

ONE, I TELL WHITES THAT — I TALK ABOUT RACE BECAUSE THE DAY I WAS BORN, AND I CAN GO THROUGH IT IN DETAIL IN THE BOOK, ON MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE, OCTOBER 3rd, 1954, NAME, PARENTS NAME AND RACE.

AND THOSE DAYS, THEY PUT DOWN NEGRO.

WELL, WHEN YOU PUT MY RACE DOWN IN THE ’50s, THAT MEANT THAT I WAS PROBABLY DESIGNATED TO A CERTAIN ZIP CODE I’M GOING TO LIVE IN, CERTAIN SCHOOLS I WOULD ATTEND, CERTAIN JOB OPPORTUNITIES THAT WERE AVAILABLE TO ME AND THOSE THAT WEREN’T, ON AND ON.

SO, I HAVE TO LOOK AT THINGS FROM THE RACIAL PRISM THAT I WAS DESIGNATED TO.

AND THEREFORE, A LOT OF WHITES, WHEN YOU EXPLAIN THAT, SAY, I NEVER UNDERSTOOD IT THAT WAY, BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT THEIR EXPERIENCE.

WHEN YOU TALK TO BLACKS THAT SAY NOTHING’S GOING TO CHANGE, I SAY, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE.

LET’S LOOK AT THE FACT THAT MY MOTHER AND FATHER WERE BOTH BORN IN THE SOUTH, MY FATHER LEFT US WHEN I WAS 10 YEARS OLD.

AND MY MOTHER USED TO TALK ABOUT, WHEN SHE WAS GROWING UP IN ALABAMA, BEFORE SHE MOVED NORTH AND HAD MY SISTER AND I IN NEW YORK, SHE COULD NOT VOTE IN HER HOMETOWN IN ALABAMA UNTIL SHE WAS FULL GROWN, AFTER THE VOTING RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

SHE COULD NOT DRINK AT A WATER FOUNTAIN THAT WHITES USED.

SHE COULDN’T USE A BATHROOM WHITES USED, SHE COULDN’T GO TO A RESTAURANT WHITES USED, SHE COULDN’T USE A MOTEL THEY WOULD USE.

WE WENT FROM MY MOTHER’S LIFETIME TO MY LIFETIME WHERE WE ACTUALLY, NOT ONLY, COULD USE ALL PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION, BUT ELECTED AND RE-ELECTED A BLACK PRESIDENT.

SO, WHAT DO YOU MEAN, THINGS CAN’T CHANGE?

WE CHANGED THEM.

WE’VE GOT TO CONTINUE TO CHANGE.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE THINK THAT BECAUSE THEY CAN TAKE THINGS FOR GRANTED, THAT THAT WAS NOT THE RESULT OF CHANGE.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER WE CAN CONTINUE THE ROAD TO CHANGE, WHICH IS WHY I TALK ABOUT CROSSROADS IF THE BOOK.

THERE’S SO MUCH MORE IN THE BOOK THAT I’D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT AND WE’RE LIMITED A BIT BY TIME, BUT I JUST WANT TO UNDERSCORE FOR SOME PEOPLE, YOU TALK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

HIM CALLING YOU AFTER — SORT OF OUT OF THE BLUE AFTER HE WON THE ELECTION, YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR BELIEF OF WHAT IS IT THAT DRIVES HIM, YOU TALK ABOUT AT HIS HEART, HE’S A REAL ESTATE DROPPER FROM QUEENS AND GIVES HIM A SENSE OF INFERIORITY.

YOU TALK ABOUT THESE OTHER ISSUES I MENTIONED, THE RIGHTS FOR OTHER GROUPS, THE IMPORTANCE OF CLIMATE AND US DOING SOMETHING TO COMBAT IT.

BUT I HAVE JUST A FEW MINUTES LEFT AND I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOMETHING AGAIN THAT YOU OFFER UP AS SORT OF A CONCLUSION OF THIS.

YOU SAY, YOUR WORDS, THIS HISTORY-MAKING MOVEMENT THAT YOU’RE INVOLVED WITH RISKS BEING MEANINGFUL IN SYMBOL ONLY.

AND I GUESS THE QUESTION, THE TAG FOR THAT WOULD BE, UNLESS WHAT HAPPENS?

UNLESS WE CAN MAKE NEW LAWS AND UNLESS WE PUT LAWMAKERS IN THAT ARE COMMITTED TO BREAKING DOWN THE WALLS THAT HAVE BARRIERS AND THAT LIMIT ANYONE’S EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

AND WE CANNOT BE JUST SELECTIVE.

I CANNOT FIGHT FOR RIGHTS FOR BLACKS, WHICH I HAVE ALL MY LIFE, WITHOUT ALSO SAYING WOMEN SHOULD HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO DECIDE ON THEIR OWN BODY.

AND LGBTQ PEOPLE MUST HAVE RIGHTS.

AND THOSE IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY THAT HAVE FACED ANTI-SEMITISM MUST HAVE RIGHTS.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO FIGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ANYBODY, YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS FOR EVERYBODY.

AND I HAVE GROWN TO UNDERSTAND THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES, I’VE COMMITTED TO AN EXPANDED MOVEMENT AND YOU RUN INTO PEOPLE, WELL, THEY DIDN’T SUFFER LIKE I DID, OR MINE IS DIFFERENT.

WE’RE NOT ABOUT COMPARING OPPRESSION, WE’RE ABOUT ENDING OPPRESSION FOR EVERYONE.

AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

IF WE ARE CONTINUING THIS ROAD WHERE WE LET PEOPLE JUST MAKE MONEY OFF OF POLLUTING THE WATER, POLLUTING THE AIR, THERE WON’T BE AN EARTH LEFT FOR ANY OF US.

SO, YOU GOT TO DEAL WITH OVERALL THE ISSUES IN ORDER TO SOLVE YOUR SPECIFIC ISSUES.

30-SECOND ANSWER, I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT REQUEST, BUT HERE IT IS.

ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC THAT WE ARE ON THE PRECIPICE OF REAL CHANGE?

I AM OPTIMISTIC, BECAUSE AS I SAT ON THE PLATFORM WATCHING BARACK OBAMA PUT HIS HAND ON THAT BIBLE AND BE SWORN IN AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND I THINK ABOUT HOW MY MOTHER COULDN’T EVEN VOTE, THAT’S JUST ONE GENERATION AHEAD OF ME AND I THINK ABOUT HOW MARTIN LUTHER KING LAID ON A COLD BALCONY AND DIED AND WAS ABLE TO TRANSFORM THE COUNTRY FROM APARTHEID TO OPENING UP TO THE POINT WHEN OBAMA OR AN OPRAH OR OTHERS COULD SUCCEED, I CAN’T NOT HAVE A SENSE OF HOPELESSNESS, BECAUSE I’VE SEEN TOO MANY VICTORIES TO KNOW THAT DEFEAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS GUARANTEED.

WE CAN WIN IF WE RISE UP AND GO DOWN THE RIGHT ROAD.

WELL, ONCE AGAIN, THE TITLE OF THE BOOK IS ‘RISE UP: CONFRONTING A COUNTRY AT THE CROSS ROADS.’

REVEREND AL SHARPTON, THANK YOU FOR SPENDING THIS TIME WITH US.

IT IS A VERY COMPELLING BOOK AND I HOPE WE CAN TALK AGAIN SOMETIME REAL SOON.

THANK YOU, JACK.

YOU BE WELL.

‘METROFOCUS’ IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.