Former Chaplain at Cook Country Jail Exposes the Harsh Realities of Mass Incarceration

TRANSCRIPT:

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Now, the criminal justice system is something our next guest understands all too well as well. Reuben Miller is a former chaplain at the Cook County Jail in Chicago. He is also a sociologist, criminologist and a social worker. His new book, “Halfway Home,” exposes the realities of life after under mass — after mass incarceration and shows that some people are never truly free even after they leave prison. Here he is talking to our Michel Martin about the book and his own personal experiences with America’s prison system.

MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Professor Rueben Miller, thank you so much for speaking with us.

REUBEN MILLER, AUTHOR, “HALFWAY HOME”: I’m so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: You know, the whole topic of mass incarceration, the criminal justice system in general is a very big topic right now. But you’re focusing on the long tail of incarceration. What happens when you supposedly get out? How did you start to notice that this was a story in itself?

MILLER: I began this work as a volunteer chaplain at the Cook County Jail in Chicago. And so, it was really getting close to these men. It was really looking from the ground not necessarily from the 30 or 40,000 feet in the air where we tend to look at these questions where we’re counting things. You know, can you get a job or not? How many people are unable to get a job? What is the unemployment rate? No, no. What I found was that — people’s fundamental relationship to things like the labor market was different or are you able to reconnect with your family? That is very important. But what I found was, when sitting across the kitchen table, those relationships and those conversations look fundamentally different for these folks than they do for other people.

MARTIN: Why is that?

MILLER: Because we’ve created a pariah class in this country. Because we’ve inaugurated an alternate form of citizenship for people with criminal records. Because there are 45,000 laws, policies and administrative sanctions that target people when they get out of jail or prison that prevent them from getting work or housing. And these things cause real strain in their relationships.

MARTIN: I think what I hear you saying is people are still locked up even if they’re not locked up.

MILLER: That is absolutely right. What I decided to study was what I called the afterlife of mass incarceration. And so, this is the way that prison follows people. It’s like a ghost. It shows up at their job. It shows up in their relationship between even their most — their intimate partners. It shows up when they’re trying to rent an apartment. It follows them. It traps them. People are imprisoned effectively in their home communities. But what is worse is the informal stuff. So, there is the — you can’t get a job. You can’t get a house because of the laws and policies that we’ve passed but there’s how that shows up in their everyday lives and their everyday relationships with everyone else they encounter.

MARTIN: And forgive me, Professor Miller, but I think this is where I think it would make sense to say this is also your problem. I mean, this is also part of your life as well. Why don’t you tell me a little about your story? In fact, you write about your story eyesight story quite a lot in the book. Your father was incarcerated, has been, and so is your brother. How did that — tell me about that.

MILLER: Yes. You know, so my grandmother raised us. And we were in foster care. She took us in. And when my brother initially got in trouble, he was sent like many children who are in the foster care system to group homes. And from there trouble escalated. So, once marked by the criminal justice system people begin to pay attention to you in a very different way. And for me, while I was arrested at 14 and, you know, it’s in the book, I was arrested because I was trying to do graffiti in trainyard. I’m not that good at graffiti. But that arrest didn’t follow me in quite the same way in part because of the arbitrary nature of enforcement that we see happen in the criminal justice system. So, what happens in poor black communities, and I was raised in a poor black neighborhood in Chicago, what happens in poor black communities is on the one hand there is over policing and on the other hand there is under policing. There is over policing but under policing and under protection. And so, you know that you can be arrested. You know that you might get in trouble. You don’t know what that trouble looks like. And once you are convicted, though, once something happens that leads to a conviction, that conviction begins to follow you and those many arrests that you may have had growing up coming up as a child are then used against you when you become an adult. And so, my brother’s experience escalated from there. So, when he became an adult and got into trouble, he had a record, that record was used against him. He was sent to prison. And so, that is a part of my story. The reason why I write about that is because it occurred to me that if I was being honest that I would have been in my own social scientific model. I was born poor and black after 1972 where mass incarceration begins in earnest and I grew up in a residentially segregated neighborhood. I, like every other black American man in this country and many black American women, wouldn’t have been able to avoid prison if I tried.

MARTIN: Why do you say that?

MILLER: The prison follows you.

MARTIN: Talk more about that because I think a lot of people have this idea that you have to do — A, you have to do something serious to get locked up.

MILLER: Yes.

MARTIN: And, B, you do your time and if you keep your nose clean as it were and then that’s done. And what you’re saying is that is just not true. Just walk me through that.

MILLER: I’ll give you an example from the book. There is a man named Martin who has experienced serial traumatic episodes, all kinds of traumatic violations. He was the victim of sexual abuse. He was the victim of physical abuse and domestic abuse from his parents. You know, these things happened. The police were not there. There was no one there when he called for help, when he asked for help. No one there. No program there to meet Martin and help Martin figure out what was going on with him. Martin becomes homeless. Martin is arrested 14 times not for some giant violent offense. He is arrested 14 times for trespassing. All of which were misdemeanor offenses. Martin turns to drugs and alcohol. A friend of his dies. Too much trauma. Too few people to turn to to help him process it. Well, he is arrested for having three crack rocks in his pocket. He is charged with a felony conviction. Why? The judge says, he thinks that’s excessive. The prosecutor says, well, his 14 arrests prove a pattern of criminality. And so, what happens? On average, my guys were arrested 15 times on average, the guys that I follow. I follow 250 guys out of American jails and prisons in Chicago, Detroit, New York, and other smaller towns across the country. They were arrested 15 times on average, most of which beginning at the age of about 14 years old, most of that for doing things that kids do every day. And so, by the time they actually got in trouble, and when I say doing things kids do every day, I mean things like hanging out together, standing on a corner, congregating in groups, you know, these kinds of things. And when they finally get in actual trouble, those early police interventions are used to prove that they are indeed criminal. This is because black people in this country are stripped of their innocence. They’re viewed as already guilty even as children.

MARTIN: You are being very delicate about Martin’s story. I found it deeply disturbing. And Martin was raped multiple times as a child.

MILLER: Yes.

MARTIN: And as a young man. And never seems to have gotten any care for what he experienced. And then when he started self-medicating in part to deal with the trauma, he was punished for that. So, I guess what I’m asking you is, do you think that even as a child you thought, you looked around and think — thought, why?

MILLER: No. No. Because it was so normal for so many of our friends to be arrested and incarcerated. No because the model interaction, the everyday, the most frequent interaction that someone from my neighborhood had with the police was being arrested. It wasn’t officer friendly or something like that. So much so that kids made games of it. OK. Here are the cops. Let’s run. Right? So, it’s like — and this, too, is the — what I call the afterlife of mass incarceration. The presumption of innocence that is stripped from black children. The presumption of guilt that’s dropped on black kids all over the country. The fact that police only show up to arrest you. That they don’t show up when you call. They don’t show up when Martin needed someone to show up for him, for many black children. And the literature says that. We believe black children are four years older on average and more guilty when we see them. This is how Tamir Rice can be murdered within two second of a cop getting out of the car. And the only question that we ask is whether or not the cop felt safe. This is how we get to that point. It is the presumption of guilt that is foisted on to black children, even black children in this country.

MARTIN: You also talk a lot about the long tail of financial burden that attaches to being incarcerated. And that is something that has a ripple effect on any family member outside that may want to stay connected to you. Talk about that.

MILLER: That is absolutely right. When I was doing my research in Detroit, this is during the time that my brother got arrested in the Michigan Department of Corrections, the average cost of a phone call for me to talk to him, because they only allow you to talk for 15-minute blocks, was $6.55. That was the average cost per phone call. That was after a series of reforms to reduce the cost. And so, $6.55 per call in an era of cell phones where phone calls are effectively free if you pay your average bill. Families have been shown to go bankrupt covering things like the cost of phone calls. But there —

MARTIN: Well, let’s talk about this for a second. You’re saying the average cost of a phone call was $6.53, if the federal minimum wage is $7 an hour.

MILLER: Come on.

MARTIN: If someone is paying — is working a minimum wage job making that federal minimum wage essentially an hour’s worth of their labor —

MILLER: Goes into that phone call.

MARTIN: — goes into talking to their loved one.

MILLER: That is absolutely right. That’s absolutely right.

MARTIN: And why does it cost so much? It doesn’t cost $7 to make a phone call. So, what is that about?

MILLER: Well, it’s about contracting with private services. When people talk about prison privatization, they often think about only private prisons, that this is where typically the imagination of what privatization looks like in prisons. But everything is privatized in prisons. So, look at this obligation for a second. The family pays for the phone call, something that’s effectively free if you pay a monthly service for any other person in the United States under any other circumstance. The family pays for food because the prison doesn’t cover the actual needs of the people inside. The family covers the cost of confinement in some states. They get a bill. This is what you need to pay because your loved one was incarcerated and we’re going to charge you for that. The family covers the cost of legal fees, $1,600 for general legal fees. My brother was charged $600 for representation by a public defender that he met for 20 minutes on the day of his conviction. The only meeting with the public defender. All of these costs are borne by the family. For someone who the state has effectively made unable to care for themselves. That is on the inside. Now, on the outside. They’re locked out of the labor market. They can’t get a job. There’s rules that say they can’t rent an apartment. It’s legal to discriminate against people with criminal records and to deny them leases and to even evict them from homes if a — for example, let’s say a grandchild stay on the couch. So, they can’t find a place to stay. They can’t support themselves. They can’t get a job. Who is going to cover their bills when they get out? The family. And so, it is not just the millions of people who are incarcerated or even the 19.6 million people who are estimated to have a felony record, it’s everybody who is connected to them. They’re all brought into their punishment. This is what mass incarceration has done.

MARTIN: Can you just read a little bit from the book that I think sort of captures it? I think you could pick something for us.

MILLER: This is from chapter 4, a chapter called “Millions of Details” and it’s after I’m having a phone call with my brother and the passage goes, any boxer will tell you that it’s the punch you don’t see coming that puts you down, the collect call you didn’t expect, the court date you didn’t have the gas money to attend, the conversations you’ve dreaded having with your children about why their uncle was in prison and when exactly you expected him to come home. The honest answer? You’re not sure. The $2.95 processing fee that brings your bills above your budget. The $292 that you’ve over drawn your account. The six $34 over draft fees because you didn’t budget the last collect call. The overpriced boots. The unexpected embarrassment as you sit at your desk entering your loved ones order 30 packages of ramen noodles. What it feels like when Michigan packages runs out of the flavor of ramen noodles you wanted. The fact that you know or at least you think you know that no one else is in your shoes if these little things, the daily disruptions that manage to pull you down. Shame does that, too.

MARTIN: Why shame?

MILLER: There’s an interesting association between the arrest and the presumption that it is because of something that you did. Because of this connection that we’ve made in the American imagination between crime and punishment. So, Americans look at the 2.3 million people who are in a U.S. jail or prison and they look at the fact that 40 percent of them are black. And then we say to those, and then say, it must be because of something that black people do. Despite the fact there have been 2,800 exonerations since 1989. Despite the fact 95 percent of those cases are resolved in a plea deal, but these are things that we don’t know because we don’t pay attention to these folks. These are folks that we’ve labeled guilty from birth. And so, because of that, because of the deep connection between what we presume to be behavior and punishment you must have got coming what you called for. One of the guys in my study said, I got what my hand called for. That’s what he said. In fact, people who would be in jail or prison, when I would visit with them, who were convicted of crimes they didn’t commit, said, well, I wasn’t convicted for the crime that I did but I certainly did something that made me deserve to be here. This is the kind of language that we circulate in. And so, a sense of guilt and a sense of shame, embarrassment because of this terrible person that you must be follows you. And the second part of the shame comes from the fact that incarceration separates families. It pulls apart, it isolates, it makes it so that you feel alone. And when you’re alone there is very little you can do. You feel powerless. You feel as if you can’t control the forces that are shaping your life. And for that, you feel a sense of shame.

MARTIN: Does that follow you when you get out?

MILLER: Everything in the world tells men that men are to be the providers and protectors of their home, but there are 19,000 laws, policies and administrative sanctions that tell them that there are hundreds of categories for employment for which they may not apply and the jobs are unsustainable when they have them. So, it is nearly impossible to get a job. The jobs you do get are often the worst kinds of jobs.  And then when the boss disrespects you at work because there are so few things that you can do, there’s so few ways you can move, you can’t leave the job and go try to get a new one. And so, what we’ve done is we effectively pushed this group of folks out of the labor market and told them that their identity is defined by their ability to make money. This is part and parcel of how shame follows people with criminal records, but it does this in housing, it does this when it comes to civic participation. Not just voting, but which offices you can hold. It does this when it tells you, you can’t sit on a jury. So, every time you go before a “jury of your peers,” there is nobody in that jury box that has had your experience, nobody in the jury box that quite understands who you are and what you have experienced or even how you changed your life after you’ve gotten out of prison. Nobody understands that. And you know that. You know effectively that you’re alone.

MARTIN: What would make a difference? What would make a difference in your view?

MILLER: I’d talk about mass incarceration as a problem citizenship, and I say that for a couple reasons. Reason one is there are unique laws, policies and sanctions that target just them and the unique responsibilities just for people with criminal records and their rights are suspended in many forms and ways. That is the kind of legal sense in which it’s a kind of citizenship. But there is also a social sense in that citizenship, at the end of the day, is really about belonging. It is about belonging to a political community. It’s about being a fully human participant within a community of other humans that has a place in the social world just because you’re a human being and you are part of our collective. I think this is the kind of thinking we have to take to this problem. And if we started there from this framework, this framework of belonging, from a framework of human thriving, what does the person who caused the crime need to thrive? What does the person who’s had the crime committed against them, the person who’s been harmed, what do they need to thrive? If we start from this place of human thriving, we’ll start doing very different things. For example, there are 45,000 laws. We don’t need 45,000 laws. In the State of Illinois there are 50 housing regulations. In the State of Illinois. One state, 50. We don’t need 50. The second is to ask when should punishment stop? When has one paid their debt to society as to have an actual reckoning with our system of punishment. To ask questions we haven’t really asked. We’ve been operating on muscle memory for the last, I don’t know, 50 or so years. And I think we can do something for it.

MARTIN: Professor Miller, thank you so much for talking with us today.

MILLER: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

TRANSCRIPT

>>> THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM

IS SOMETHING OUR NEXT GUEST,

REUBEN MILLER, UNDERSTANDS ALL

TOO WELL, AS WELL.

REUBEN MILLER IS A FORMER

CHAPLAIN AT THE COOK COUNTY JAIL

IN CHICAGO, ALSO AS SOOLOGIST,

CRIMINALOLOGIST AND SOCIAL

WORKER.

HIS NEW BOOK "HALF WAY HOME"

EXPOSES THE REALITIES OF LIFE

AFTER MASS INCARCERATION AND

SHOWS THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE NEVER

TRULY FREE EVEN AFTER THEY LEAVE

PRISON.

HERE HE IS TALKING TO OUR MICHEL

MARTIN ABOUT THE BOOK AND HIS

OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES WITH

AMERICA'S PRISON SYSTEM.

THIS IS A CONVERSATION WHICH IS

PART OF OUR ONGOING INITIATIVE

ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS AND ECONOMIC

OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA.

IT'S CALLED "CHASING THE DREAM."

>> Reporter: THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR

SPEAKING WITH US.

>> I'M SO GLAD TO BE HERE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE TOPIC OF

MASS INCARS RAGS, THE CRIMINAL

JUSTICE SYSTEM IN GENERAL, IS A

VERY BIG TOPIC RIGHT NOW.

BUT YOU'RE FOCUSING ON THE LONG

TAIL OF INCARCERATION.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SUPPOSEDLY

GET OUT?

HOW DID YOU START TO NOTICE THAT

THIS WAS A STORY IN ITSELF?

>> I BEGAN THIS WORK AS A

VOLUNTEER CHAPLAIN AT THE COOK

COUNTY JAIL IN CHICAGO.

AND SO IT WAS REALLY GETTING

CLOSE TO THESE MEN.

IT WAS REALLY LOOKING FROM THE

GROUND NOT NECESSARILY FROM THE

30 OR 40,000 FEET IN THE AIR

WHERE WE TEND TO LOOK AT THESE

QUESTIONS WHERE WE'RE COUNTING

THINGS.

CAN YOU GET A JOB OR NOT?

HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE UNABLE TO

GET A JOB?

WHAT IS THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE?

NO, NO.

WHAT I FOUND IS PEOPLE'S

FUNDAMENTAL RELATIONSHIP TO

THINGS LIKE THE LABOR MARKET WAS

DIFFERENT OR ARE YOU ABLE TO

RECONNECT WITH YOUR FAMILY?

THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

WHAT I FOUND WAS WHEN SITTING

ACROSS THE KITCHEN TABLE THOSE

RELATIONSHIPS AND THOSE

CONVERSATIONS LOOK FUNDAMENTALLY

DIFFERENT FOR THESE FOLKS THAN

THEY DO FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> BECAUSE WE CREATED A PARIAH

CLASS IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE'VE INAUGURATED AN ALTERNATE

FORM OF CITIZENSHIP FOR PEOPLE

WITH CRIMINAL RECORDS.

BECAUSE THERE ARE 45,000 LAWS,

POLICIES, AND ADMINISTRATIVE

SANCTIONS THAT TARGET PEOPLE

WHEN THEY GET OUT OF JAIL OR

PRISON THAT PREVENT THEM FROM

GETTING WORK OR HOUSING.

AND THESE THINGS CAUSE REAL

STRAIN IN THEIR RELATIONSHIPS.

>> I THINK WHAT I HEAR YOU

SAYING IS PEOPLE ARE STILL

LOCKED UP, EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT

LOCKED UP.

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WHAT I DECIDED TO STUDY WAS WHAT

I CALLED THE AFTERLIFE OF MASS

INCARCERATION.

AND SO THIS IS THE WAY THAT

PRISON FOLLOWS PEOPLE.

IT'S LIKE A GHOST.

IT SHOWS UP AT THEIR JOB.

IT SHOWS UP IN THEIR

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EVEN THEIR

MOST -- THEIR INTIMATE PARTNERS.

IT SHOWS UP WHEN THEY'RE TRYING

TO RENT AN APARTMENT.

IT FOLLOWS THEM.

IT TRAPS THEM.

PEOPLE ARE IMPRISONED

EFFECTIVELY IN THEIR HOME

COMMUNITIES.

BUT WHAT IS WORSE IS THE

INFORMAL STUFF SO THERE IS

THE -- YOU CAN'T GET A JOB.

YOU CAN'T GET A HOUSE BECAUSE OF

THE LAWS AND POLICIES THAT WE'VE

PASSED BUT THERE'S HOW THAT

SHOWS UP IN THEIR EVERYDAY

LIVES, IN THEIR EVERYDAY

RELATIONSHIPS WITH EVERYONE ELSE

THAT THEY COUNTER.

>> FORGIVE ME, PROFESSOR MILLER,

BUT THIS IS WHERE I THINK IT

WOULD MAKE SENSE TO SAY THIS IS

ALSO YOUR PROBLEM.

THIS IS ALSO PART OF YOUR LIFE

AS WELL.

WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME A LITTLE

ABOUT YOUR STORY.

IN FACT, YOU WRITE ABOUT YOUR

STORY QUITE A LOT IN THE BOOK.

YOUR FATHER WAS INCARCERATED,

HAS BEEN, AND SO IS YOUR

BROTHER.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, SO MY GRANDMOTHER

RAISED US.

AND WE WERE IN FOSTER CARE.

SHE TOOK US IN.

AND WHEN MY BROTHER INITIALLY

GOT IN TROUBLE, HE WAS SENT LIKE

MANY CHILDREN WHO ARE IN THE

FOSTER CARE SYSTEM TO GROUP

HOMES.

AND FROM THERE TROUBLE

ESCALATED.

SO ONCE MARKED BY THE CRIMINAL

JUSTICE SYSTEM PEOPLE BEGIN TO

PAY ATTENTION TO YOU IN A VERY

DIFFERENT WAY.

FOR ME, WHILE I WAS ARRESTED AT

14 AND IT'S IN THE BOOK I WAS

ARRESTED BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO

DO GRAFFITI IN A TRAIN YARD.

I'M NOT THAT GOOD AT GRAFFITI.

BUT THAT ARREST DIDN'T FOLLOW ME

IN QUITE THE SAME WAY IN PART

BECAUSE OF THE ARBITRARY NATURE

OF ENFORCEMENT THAT WE SEE

HAPPENING IN THE CRIMINAL

JUSTICE SYSTEM.

WHAT HAPPENS IN POOR BLACK

COMMUNITIES, AND I WAS RAISED IN

A POOR BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD IN

CHICAGO, WHAT HAPPENS IN POOR

BLACK COMMUNITIES IS ON THE ONE

HAND THERE IS OVERPOLICING AND

ON THE OTHER HAND THERE IS

UNDERPOLICING.

THERE IS OVERPOLICING BUT THERE

IS UNDERPOLICING AND

UNDERPROTECTION.

SO YOU KNOW THAT YOU CAN BE

ARRESTED.

YOU KNOW THAT YOU MIGHT GET IN

TROUBLE.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT TROUBLE

LOOKS LIKE.

AND ONCE YOU ARE CONVICTED,

THOUGH.

ONCE SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT

LEADS TO CONVICTION THAT

CONVICTION BEGINS TO FOLLOW YOU

AND THE MANY ARRESTS YOU MAY

HAVE HAD GROWING UP COMING UP AS

A CHILD ARE THEN USED AGAINST

YOU WHEN YOU BECOME AN ADULT.

AND SO MY BROTHER'S EXPERIENCE

ESCALATED FROM THERE.

WHEN HE BECAME AN ADULT AND GOT

INTO TROUBLE HE HAD A RECORD.

THAT RECORD WAS USED AGAINST

HIM.

HE WAS SENT TO PRISON.

AND SO THAT IS A PART OF -- THAT

IS A PART OF MY STORY.

THE REASON WHY I WRITE ABOUT

THAT IS BECAUSE IT OCCURRED TO

ME THAT IF I WAS BEING HONEST

THAT I WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MY OWN

SOCIAL SCIENTIFIC MODEL.

I WAS BORN POOR AND BLACK AFTER

1972 WHERE MASS INCARCERATION

BEGINS IN EARNEST AND I GREW UP

IN A RESIDENTIALLY SEGREGATED

NEIGHBORHOOD.

I LIKE EVERY OTHER BLACK

AMERICAN MAN IN THIS COUNTRY AND

MANY BLACK AMERICAN WOMEN

WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO AVOID

PRISON IF I TRIED.

>> WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> THE PRISON FOLLOWS YOU.

>> TALK MORE ABOUT THAT.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE

THIS IDEA THAT YOU HAVE TO DO,

A, SOMETHING SERIOUS TO GET

LOCKED UP AND, B, YOU DO YOUR

TIME AND IF YOU KEEP YOUR NOSE

CLEAN AS IT WERE AND THEN THAT'S

DONE AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS

THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

WALK ME THROUGH THAT.

>> I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE FROM

THE BOOK.

THERE IS A MAN NAMED MARTIN WHO

WAS EXPERIENCED SERIAL TRAUMATIC

EPISODES, ALL KINDS OF TRAUMATIC

VIOLATIONS.

HE WAS THE VICTIM OF SEXUAL

ABUSE.

HE WAS THE VICTIM OF PHYSICAL

ABUSE AND DOMESTIC ABUSE FROM

HIS PARENTS.

YOU KNOW, THESE THINGS HAPPENED.

THE POLICE WERE NOT THERE.

THERE WAS NO ONE THERE WHEN HE

CALLED FOR HELP, WHEN HE ASKED

FOR HELP.

NO ONE THERE.

NO PROGRAM THERE TO MEET MARTIN

AND HELP MARTIN FIGURE OUT WHAT

WAS GOING ON WITH HIM.

MARTIN BECOMES HOMELESS.

MARTIN IS ARRESTED 14 TIMES NOT

FOR SOME GIANT VIOLENT OFFENSE.

HE IS ARRESTED 14 TIMES FOR

TRESPASSING.

ALL OF WHICH WERE MISDEMEANOR

OFFENSES.

MARTIN TURNS TO DRUGS AND

ALCOHOL.

A FRIEND OF HIS DIES.

TOO MUCH TRAUMA.

TOO FEW PEOPLE TO TURN TO TO

HELP HIM PROCESS IT.

WELL, HE IS ARRESTED FOR HAVING

THREE CRACK ROCKS IN HIS POCKET.

HE IS CHARGED WITH A FELONY

CONVICTION.

WHY?

THE JUDGE SAYS, HE THINKS THAT'S

EXCESSIVE.

THE PROSECUTOR SAYS, WELL, HIS

14 ARRESTS PROVE A PATTERN OF

CRIMINALITY.

AND SO WHAT HAPPENS?

ON AVERAGE MY GUYS WERE ARRESTED

15 TIMES ON AVERAGE, THE GUYS

THAT I FOLLOW.

I FOLLOW 250 GUYS OUT OF

AMERICAN JAILS AND PRISONS IN

CHICAGO, DETROIT, NEW YORK, AND

OTHER SMALLER TOWNS ACROSS THE

COUNTRY.

THEY WERE ARRESTED 15 TIMES ON

AVERAGE MOST OF WHICH BEGINNING

AT THE AGE OF ABOUT 14 YEARS OLD

MOST OF THAT FOR DOING THINGS

KIDS DO EVERY DAY.

BY THE TIME THEY ACTUALLY GOT IN

TROUBLE AND WHEN I SAY DOING

THINGS KIDS DO EVERY DAY I MEAN

THINGS LIKE HANGING OUT

TOGETHER, STANDING ON A CORNER,

CONGREGATING IN GROUPS.

THESE KINDS OF THINGS.

WHEN THEY FINALLY GET IN ACTUAL

TROUBLE THOSE EARLY POLICE

INTERVENTIONS ARE USED TO PROVE

THAT THEY ARE INDEED CRIMINAL.

THIS IS BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE IN

THIS COUNTRY ARE STRIPPED OF

THEIR INNOCENCE.

THEY'RE VIEWED AS ALREADY GUILTY

EVEN AS CHILDREN.

>> YOU ARE BEING VERY DELICATE

ABOUT MARTIN'S STORY.

I FOUND IT DEEPLY DISTURBING.

MARTIN WAS RAPED MULTIPLE TIMES

AS A CHILD.

>> YES.

>> AND AS A YOUNG MAN.

AND NEVER SEEMS TO HAVE GOTTEN

ANY CARE FOR WHAT HE

EXPERIENCED.

THEN WHEN HE STARTED TO

SELF-MEDICATE IN PART TO DEAL

WITH THE TRAUMA, HE WAS PUNISHED

FOR THAT.

I GUESS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU IS

DO YOU THINK THAT EVEN AS A

CHILD YOU THOUGHT, YOU LOOKED

AROUND AND THOUGHT, WHY?

>> NO.

NO.

BECAUSE IT WAS SO NORMAL FOR SO

MANY OF OUR FRIENDS TO BE

ARRESTED AND INCARCERATED.

NO BECAUSE THE EVERY DAY, THE

MOST FREQUENT INTERACTION THAT

SOMEONE FROM MY NEIGHBORHOOD HAD

WITH THE POLICE WAS BEING

ARRESTED.

IT WASN'T OFFICER FRIENDLY OR

SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO MUCH SO THAT KIDS MADE GAMES

OF IT.

OKAY.

HERE ARE THE COPS.

LET'S RUN.

RIGHT?

SO IT'S LIKE -- AND THIS, TOO,

IS THE, WHAT I CALL THE AFTER

LIFE OF MASS INCARCERATION.

THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE IS

STRIPPED FROM BLACK CHILDREN.

THE PRESUMPTION OF GUILT THAT'S

DROPPED ON BLACK KIDS ALL OVER

THE COUNTRY.

THE FACT THAT POLICE ONLY SHOW

UP TO ARREST YOU.

THEY DON'T SHOW UP WHEN YOU

CALL.

THEY DON'T SHOW UP WHEN MARTIN

NEEDED SOMEONE TO SHOW UP FOR

HIM.

FOR MANY BLACK CHILDREN.

AND THE LITERATURE SAYS THAT.

WE BELIEVE BLACK CHILDREN ARE

FOUR YEARS OLDER ON AVERAGE AND

MORE GUILTY WHEN WE SEE THEM.

THIS IS HOW TAMIR RICE CAN BE

MURDERED WITHIN TWO SECONDS OF A

COP GETTING OUT OF THE CAR.

AND THE ONLY QUESTION WE ASK IS

WHETHER OR NOT THE COP FELT

SAFE.

THIS IS HOW WE GET TO THAT

POINT.

IT IS THE PRESUMPTION OF GUILT

THAT IS FOISTED ON TO BLACK

CHILDREN EVEN BLACK CHILDREN IN

THIS COUNTRY.

>> YOU ALSO TALK A LOT ABOUT THE

LONG TAIL OF FINANCIAL BURDEN

THAT ATTACHES TO BEING

INCARCERATED.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS A

RIPPLE EFFECT ON ANY FAMILY

MEMBER OUTSIDE THAT MAY WANT TO

STAY CONNECTED TO YOU.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WHEN I WAS DOING MY RESEARCH IN

DETROIT, DURING THE TIME THAT MY

BROTHER GOT ARRESTED IN THE

MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF

CORRECTIONS, THE AVERAGE COST OF

A PHONE CALL FOR ME TO TALK TO

HIM BECAUSE THEY ONLY ALLOW YOU

TO TALK FOR 15-MINUTE BLOCKS WAS

$6.55.

THAT WAS THE AVERAGE COST PER

PHONE CALL.

THAT WAS AFTER A SERIES OF

REFORMS TO REDUCE THE COST.

AND SO $6.55 PER CALL IN AN ERA

OF CELL PHONES WHERE PHONE CALLS

ARE EFFECTIVELY FREE IF YOU PAY

YOUR AVERAGE BILL.

FAMILIES HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO GO

BANKRUPT COVERING THINGS LIKE

THE COST OF PHONE CALLS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS FOR A

SECOND.

YOU SAY THE AVERAGE COST OF A

PHONE CALL WAS $6.53.

YET THE FEDERAL MINIMUM WAGE IS

$7 AN HOUR.

>> COME ON.

>> AND SOMEONE IS PAYING,

WORKING A MINIMUM WAGE JOB

MAKING THAT FEDERAL MINIMUM WAGE

ESSENTIALLY AN HOUR'S WORTH OF

THEIR LABOR --

>> GOES INTO THAT PHONE CALL.

>> -- DEPOSE INTO TALKING TO

THEIR LOVED ONE.

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

>> WHY DOES IT COST SO MUCH?

IT DOESN'T COST $7 TO MAKE A

PHONE CALL.

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

>> WELL, IT'S ABOUT CONTRACTING

WITH PRIVATE SERVICES.

WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT PRISON

PRIVATIZATION THEY OFTEN THINK

ABOUT ONLY PRIVATE PRISONS THAT

THIS IS WHERE TYPICALLY THE

IMAGINATION OF WHAT

PRIVATIZATION LOOKS LIKE IN

PRISONS.

BUT EVERYTHING IS PRIVATIZED IN

PRISONS.

SO LOOK AT THIS OBLIGATION.

THE FAMILY PAYS FOR THE PHONE

CALL SOMETHING EFFECTIVELY FREE

IF YOU PAY A MONTHLY SERVICE FOR

ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE UNITED

STATES UNDER ANY OTHER

CIRCUMSTANCE.

THE FAMILY PAYS FOR FOOD BECAUSE

THE PRISON DOESN'T COVER THE

ACTUAL NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE

INSIDE.

THE FAMILY COVERS THE COST OF

CONFINEMENT IN SOME STATES.

THEY GET A BILL.

THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO PAY

BECAUSE YOUR LOVED ONE WAS

INCARCERATED AND WE'RE GOING TO

CHARGE YOU FOR THAT.

THE FAMILY COVERS THE COST OF

LEGAL FEES.

$1,600 FOR GENERAL LEGAL FEES.

MY BROTHER WAS CHARGED $600 FOR

REPRESENTATION BY A PUBLIC

DEFENDER THAT HE MET FOR 20

MINUTES ON THE DAY OF HIS

CONVICTION.

THE ONLY MEETING WITH THE PUBLIC

DEFENDER.

ALL OF THESE COSTS ARE BORNE BY

THE FAMILY.

FOR SOMEONE WHO THE STATE HAS

EFFECTIVELY MADE UNABLE TO CARE

FOR THEMSELVES.

THAT IS ON THE INSIDE.

NOW, ON THE OUTSIDE.

THEY'RE LOCKED OUT OF THE LABOR

MARKET.

THEY CAN'T GET A JOB.

THERE ARE RULES THAT SAY THEY

CAN'T RENT AN APARTMENT.

IT'S LEGAL TO DISCRIMINATE

AGAINST PEOPLE WITH CRIMINAL

RECORDS AND TO DENY THEM LEASES

AND TO EVEN EVICT THEM FROM

HOMES IF A GRANDMOTHER, FOR

EXAMPLE, LET'S A GRANDCHILD STAY

ON THE COUCH.

SO THEY CAN'T FIND A PLACE TO

STAY.

THEY CAN'T SUPPORT THEMSELVES.

THEY CAN'T GET A JOB.

WHO IS GOING TO COVER THEIR

BILLS WHEN THEY GET OUT?

THE FAMILY.

AND SO IT IS NOT JUST THE

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE

INCARCERATED.

OR EVEN THE 19.6 MILLION PEOPLE

ESTIMATED TO HAVE A FELONY

RECORD.

IT IS EVERYBODY WHO IS CONNECTED

TO THEM.

THEY'RE ALL BROUGHT INTO THEIR

PUNISHMENT.

THIS IS WHAT MASS INCARCERATION

HAS DONE.

>> CAN YOU JUST READ A LITTLE

BIT FROM THE BOOK THAT I THINK

CATCHES IT.

I THINK YOU COULD PICK SOMETHING

FOR US.

>> FROM CHAPTER 4 A CHAPTER

CALLED "MILLIONS OF DETAILS"

AFTER I'M HAVING A PHONE CALL

WITH MY BROTHER AND THE PASSAGE

GOES, ANY BOXER WILL TELL YOU

IT'S THE PUNCH YOU DON'T SEE

COMING THAT PUTS YOU DOWN.

THE COLLECT CALL YOU DIDN'T

EXPECT.

THE COURT DATE YOU DIDN'T HAVE

THE GAS MONEY TO ATTEND.

THE CONVERSATIONS YOU'VE DREADED

HAVING WITH YOUR CHILDREN ABOUT

WHY THEIR UNCLE WAS IN PRISON

AND WHEN EXACTLY YOU EXPECTED

HIM TO COME HOME.

THE HONEST ANSWER?

YOU'RE NOT SURE.

THE $2.95 PROCESSING FEE THAT

BRINGS YOUR BILLS ABOVE YOUR

BUDGET.

THE $292 THAT YOU'VE OVERDRAWN

YOUR ACCOUNT.

THE SIX $34 OVER DRAFT FEES

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T BUDGET THE

LAST COLLECT CALL.

THE OVERPRICED BOOTS.

UNEXPECTED EMBARRASSMENT AS YOU

SIT AT YOUR DESK AS YOUR LOVED

ONES ORDER 30 PACKAGES OF RAMEN

NOODLES.

WHAT IT FEELS LIKE WHEN THEY RUN

OUT OF THE FLAVOR YOU WANTED.

THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW OR AT

LEAST YOU THINK YOU KNOW --

THESE LITTLE THINGS, THE DAILY

DISRUPTIONS THAT MANAGE TO PULL

YOU DOWN.

SHAME DOES THAT, TOO.

>> WHY SHAME?

>> AN INTERESTING ASSOCIATION

BETWEEN THE ARREST AND THE

PRESUMPTION THAT IT IS BECAUSE

OF SOMETHING THAT YOU DID.

BECAUSE OF THIS CONNECTION WE'VE

MADE IN THE AMERICAN IMAGINATION

BETWEEN CRIME AND PUNISHMENT.

SO AMERICANS LOOK AT THE

2.3 MILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE IN A

U.S. JAIL OR PRISON AND THEY

LOOK AT THE FACT THAT 40% OF

THEM ARE BLACK AND THEN WE SAY

TO THOSE, AND THEN SAY, IT MUST

BE BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT

BLACK PEOPLE DO.

DESPITE THE FACT THERE HAVE BEEN

2800 EXONERATIONS SINCE 1989.

DESPITE THE FACT 95% OF THOSE

CASES ARE RESOLVED IN A PLEA

DEAL.

THESE ARE THINGS WE DON'T KNOW

BECAUSE WE DON'T PAY ATTENTION

TO THESE FOLKS.

THESE ARE FOLKS WE LABELED

GUILTY FROM BIRTH.

BECAUSE OF THAT, BECAUSE OF THE

DEEP CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT WE

PRESUME TO BE BEHAVIOR AND

PUNISHMENT YOU MUST HAVE GOT

COMING WHAT YOU CALLED FOR.

ONE OF THE GUYS IN MY STUDY SAID

I GOT WHAT MY HAND CALLED FOR.

THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.

IN FACT PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE IN

JAIL OR PRISON WHEN I WOULD

VISIT WITH THEM WHO WERE

CONVICTED OF CRIMES THEY DIDN'T

COMMIT SAID, WELL I WASN'T

CONVICTED FOR THE CRIME THAT I

DID BUT I CERTAINLY DID

SOMETHING THAT MADE ME DESERVE

TO BE HERE.

THIS IS THE KIND OF LANGUAGE WE

CIRCULATE IN.

AND SO A SENSE OF GUILT AND A

SENSE OF SHAME, EMBARRASSMENT

BECAUSE OF THIS TERRIBLE PERSON

THAT YOU MUST BE FOLLOWS YOU.

AND THE SECOND PART OF THE SHAME

COMES FROM THE FACT THAT

INCARCERATION SEPARATES

FAMILIES.

IT PULLS APART, IT ISOLATES, IT

MAKES IT SO YOU FEEL ALONE.

AND WHEN YOU'RE ALONE THERE IS

VERY LITTLE YOU CAN DO.

YOU FEEL POWERLESS.

YOU FEEL AS IF YOU CAN'T CONTROL

THE FORCES THAT ARE SHAPING YOUR

LIFE AND FOR THAT YOU FEEL A

SENSE OF SHAME.

>> WHY DOES IT FOLLOW YOU WHEN

YOU GET OUT?

>> EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD TELLS

MEN THEY ARE TO BE THE

PROTECTORS AND PROVIDERS OF

THEIR HOME BUT THERE ARE 19,000

LAWS, POLICIES AND

ADMINISTRATIVE SANCTIONS THAT

TELL THEM THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF

CATEGORIES FOR EMPLOYMENT FOR

WHICH THEY MAY NOT APPLY AND THE

JOBS ARE UNSUSTAINABLE WHEN THEY

HAVE THEM.

IT IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A

JOB.

THE JOBS YOU DO GET ARE OFTEN

THE WORST KINDS OF JOBS.

AND THEN WHEN THE BOSS

DISRESPECTS YOU AT WORK BECAUSE

THERE ARE SO FEW THINGS YOU CAN

DO, SO FEW WAYS YOU CAN MOVE,

YOU CAN'T LEAVE THE JOB AND GO

TRY TO GET A NEW ONE.

SO WHAT WE'VE DONE IS

EFFECTIVELY PUSHED THIS GROUP OF

FOLKS OUT OF THE LABOR MARKET

AND TOLD THEM THAT THEIR

IDENTITY IS DEFINED BY THEIR

ABILITY TO MAKE MONEY.

THIS IS PART AND PARCEL OF HOW

SHAME FOLLOWS PEOPLE WITH

CRIMINAL RECORDS BUT IT DOES

THIS IN HOUSING, IT DOES THIS

WHEN IT COMES TO CIVIC

PARTICIPATION.

NOT JUST VOTING BUT WHICH

OFFICES YOU CAN HOLD.

IT DOES THIS WHEN IT TELLS YOU

YOU CAN'T SIT ON A JURY SO EVERY

TIME YOU GO BEFORE A, QUOTE,

JURY OF YOUR PEERS THERE IS

NOBODY IN THE JURY BOX THAT HAS

HAD YOUR EXPERIENCE OR QUITE

UNDERSTANDS WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT

YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED OR EVEN HOW

YOU CHANGED YOUR LIFE AFTER

YOU'VE GOTTEN OUT OF PRISON.

NOBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT.

AND YOU KNOW THAT.

YOU KNOW EFFECTIVELY THAT YOU'RE

ALONE.

>> WHAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

WHAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN

YOUR VIEW?

>> I'D TALK ABOUT MASS

INCARCERATION AS A PROBLEM

CITIZENSHIP AND I SAY THAT FOR A

COUPLE REASONS.

REASON ONE IS THERE ARE UNIQUE

LAWS, POLICIES, AND SANCTIONS

THAT TARGET JUST THEM AND THE

UNIQUE RESPONSIBILITIES JUST FOR

PEOPLE WITH CRIMINAL RECORDS AND

THEIR RIGHTS ARE SUSPENDED IN

MANY FORMS AND WAYS.

THAT IS THE KIND OF LEGAL SENSE

IN WHICH IT IMPACTS CITIZENSHIP.

THERE IS ALSO A SOCIAL SENSE IN

THAT CITIZENSHIP AT THE END OF

THE DAY IS ABOUT BELONGING.

IT IS ABOUT BELONGING TO A

POLITICAL COMMUNITY.

IT'S ABOUT BEING A FULLY HUMAN

PARTICIPANT WITHIN A COMMUNITY

OF OTHER HUMANS THAT HAS A PLACE

IN THE SOCIAL WORLD JUST BECAUSE

YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING AND YOU ARE

PART OF OUR COLLECTIVE.

I THINK THIS IS THE KIND OF

THINKING WE HAVE TO TAKE TO THIS

PROBLEM.

AND IF WE STARTED THERE FROM

THIS FRAMEWORK OF BELONGING,

FROM A FRAMEWORK OF HUMAN

THRIVING, WHAT DOES THE PERSON

WHO CAUSED THE CRIME NEED TO

THRIVE?

WHAT DOES THE PERSON WHO'S HAD

THE CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST

THEM, THE PERSON WHO'S BEEN

HARMED, WHAT DO THEY NEED TO

THRIVE?

WE START FROM THIS PLACE OF

HUMAN THRIVING, WE'LL START

DOING VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

FOR EXAMPLE, 45,000 LAWS.

WE DON'T NEED 45,000 LAWS.

WE DON'T NEED THAT.

IN THE STATE OF ILLINOIS THERE

ARE 50 HOUSING REGULATIONS.

IN THE STATE OF ILLINOIS.

ONE STATE.

50.

WE DON'T NEED 50.

THE SECOND IS TO ASK WHEN SHOULD

PUNISHMENT STOP?

WHEN HAS ONE PAID THEIR DEBT TO

SOCIETY AS TO HAVE AN ACTUAL

RECKONING WITH OUR SYSTEM OF

PUNISHMENT TO ASK QUESTIONS WE

HAVEN'T REALLY ASKED.

WE'VE BEEN OPERATING ON MUSCLE

MEMORY FOR THE LAST, I DON'T

KNOW, 50 OR SO YEARS.

I THINK WE CAN DO SOMETHING FOR

IT.

>> PROFESSOR MILLER, THANK YOU

SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US

TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

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