>>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH

RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND

JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE

BY --

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III,

SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA

PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT

ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN

GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ,

JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD,

CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN

FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON,

DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN

FOUNDATION, THE JPB FOUNDATION.

>>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO

"METROFOCUS," I'M JACK FORD.

DURING THIS PAST YEAR'S

RECKONING OVER RACIAL INJUSTICE,

THERE'S BEEN A PUSH TO

UNDERSTAND OUR PAST MORE FULLY

AS WE ATTEMPT TO BUILD A BETTER

FUTURE.

BUT THIS REEXAMINATION OF OUR

NATION'S COMPLICATED HISTORY

DIDN'T JUST START IN 2020.

IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME FOR

SOME TIME.

FOR INSTANCE, ROUGHLY A DECADE

AGO, PROFESSOR GLORIA

BROWNE-MARSHALL STARTED WORK ON

WHAT WOULD BECOME HER BOOK

CALLED "SHE TOOK JUSTICE: THE

BLACK WOMAN LAW AND POW ER,

1619-1969."

THE BOOK REVEALS THE COURAGE

THAT BLACK WOMEN HAVE

DEMONSTRATED IN THE FACE OF

OVERWHELMING RACIAL PREJUDICE

AND ILLUSTRATING HOW THEY BECAME

LEADING ACTIVISTS, ORGANIZERS,

LAWYERS AND JUDGES IN THEIR

FIGHT FOR EQUALITY.

TO HELP US EXPLORE THE STORIES

OF THE TRUE AMERICAN HEROES, IT

IS OUR PLEASURE TO WELCOME BACK

PROFESSOR GLORIA

BROWNE-MARSHALL.

AND SHE JOINS US TONIGHT AS PART

OF OUR I'M GOING CHASING THE

DREAM INITIATIVE ON POVERTY,

JUSTICE AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

IN AMERICA.

SO, PROFESSOR, WELCOME.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

>> LET ME START WITH A COUPLE OF

BIGGER PICTURE QUESTIONS FOR YOU

AND THEN I DO WANT TO FOCUS ON

SOME OF THE STORIES YOU TELL.

THE BOOK IS SO POWERFUL AND SO

COMPELLING AND SO THOUGHT

PROVOKING AND THERE ARE SO MANY

MARVELOUS STORIES.

I WANT TO TOUCH ON A FEW OF

THEM.

BUT LET ME START WITH A BIGGER

PICTURE QUESTION HERE.

IN THE BOOK, IT'S MENTIONED THAT

LAW WAS THE ENEMY OF THE BLACK

WOMAN AND THEN IT BECAME HER

WEAPON.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, FIRST

BEING THE ENEMY AND THEN

BECOMING THE WEAPON?

>> WELL, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT

THE FACT THAT THE LAW WAS MADE

TO ENFORCE THE SOCIAL NORMS OF

BLACK PEOPLE, PEOPLE OF COLOR,

BEING AT THE BOTTOM, BEING

WORKERS FOR LIFE AND SO, IF

GENERALLY PEOPLE OF COLOR,

AFRICANS IN PARTICULAR, ARE

WORKERS FOR LIFE, THEN WHAT IS

THE ROLE OF THE BLACK WOMAN?

UNDER LAW, NOT ONLY DID SHE LACK

ALL HUMAN RIGHTS AS A HUMAN

BEING, BECAUSE SHE WAS SUPPOSED

TO BE A LABORER, BUT SHE HAD

NONE OF THE DIGNITIES, NONE OF

THE PROTECTIONS THAT WOULD COME

WITH BEING A WOMAN.

SO, BY RACE AND BY GENDER, SHE

WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LEGAL

TOTEM POLE AND LAW WAS CREATED

TIME AND TIME AGAIN TO KEEP HER

THERE TO USE HER IN ANY WAY,

ABUSE HER IN ANY WAY THAT WOULD

BENEFIT THE COMMON SOCIETY OF

WHITES AND AT THE SAME TIME GIVE

HER NONE OF THE PROTECTIONS.

AND THIS WAS RELIGION-BASED.

AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT EVEN

MORE DIABOLICAL.

>> HOW DO YOU -- YEAH, HOW DO

YOU MEAN THAT?

HOW DO YOU MEAN THAT?

BECAUSE THAT MIGHT SOUND ODD AND

STRANGE TO PEOPLE.

WE LIKE TO THINK OUR RELIGIONS

ARE BRACING AND UPLIFTING?

>> WELL, THE -- WHEN WE LOOK AT

THE ATTACK OF THE AFRICAN

CONTINENT BY THE EUROPEANS, THEY

WERE GIVEN CARTE BLANCHE BY THE

POPE.

AND SO, THE POPE SAID, YES, ALL

THESE PEOPLE OF COLOR, WHETHER

AFRICAN, NATIVE AMERICAN, ASIAN,

SHOULD BE THE FOOT STOOL FOR THE

EUROPEANS, BECAUSE THEY ARE

HEATHENS, AND SO, ONCE THEY'RE

OUTSIDE OF THE EMBRACE OF GOD,

THEN THEY'RE OUTSIDE THE EMBRACE

OF LAW AND OUTSIDE OF THE

EMBRACE OF COMMUNITY IN SOCIETY.

SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE

AFRICAN WOMEN, THEY ARE WOMEN

WHO ARE AT THE VERY LOWEST POINT

OF LAW PROTECTION.

THEY HAVE NO PROTECTION.

THEY ARE PROPERTY.

AND SEEM TO BE UNDER LAW WILLING

AND ABLE AS HEATHENS TO BE USED

WHATEVER MECHANISM IS IN PLACE

FOR THE COMMON SOCIETY'S GOOD.

SO, THAT MEANS THAT SHE IS

UNABLE TO PROTECT HERSELF OR HER

CHILDREN, HER HUSBAND, HER

FAMILY AND SO THE LAW WAS ALWAYS

BEING USED TO KEEP HER IN HER

PLACE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE

TITLE OF THE BOOK, BECAUSE I

ALWAYS FIND TITLES FASCINATING

WHEN I TALK TO AUTHORS.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT JUSTICE, WE

TEND TO THINK OF JUSTICE AS

BEING THIS OVERARCHING CONCEPT

AND PROCESS HERE.

AND YET THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK

IS "SHE TOOK JUSTICE."

WHY DID YOU DECIDE THAT THAT WAS

THE APPROPRIATE TITLE TO USE

HERE?

>> BECAUSE NO ONE GAVE THE BLACK

WOMAN JUSTICE.

AND IT'S INTERESTING TO ME IN

MANY WAYS BECAUSE PEOPLE

SOMETIMES BELIEVE IN THE LAST

15, 20 YEARS AFTER THE CIVIL

RIGHTS MOVEMENT THAT BLACK WOMEN

ROSE UP TO BECOME WHO THEY ARE

TODAY, KAMALA HARRIS AS VICE

PRESIDENT, MICHELLE OBAMA,

LEADERS OF CERTAIN FORTUNE 500

CORPORATIONS, BUT BLACK WOMEN,

IF I CAN SAY WE, ALWAYS HAD

THESE ATTRIBUTES.

IT WAS LOOKING FOR THE

OPPORTUNITY AND WHEN THE

OPPORTUNITY WASN'T THERE, WE HAD

TO PUSH THAT FORWARD.

WE HAD TO DEMAND OUR PLACE AND

CARVE IT OUT AND THAT MEANT THAT

WE HAD TO TAKE JUSTICE, BECAUSE

JUSTICE WAS NOT GOING TO OPEN

ITSELF UP TO US.

AND WE HAD TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN

BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY IN

CERTAIN INSTANCES.

>> LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING.

A GOOD PLACE TO START, IN THE

BEGINNING OF YOUR BOOK.

YOU MENTION SOME HISTORICAL

FIGURE, BUT YOU START WAY BACK

HERE.

AND THE FIRST CHAPTER, YOU

INTRODUCE US TO WHO WAS THEN

PRINCESS NZINGA IN WHAT IS NOW

THE WEST AFRICAN NATION OF

ANGOLA, BUT WAS VERY DIFFERENT

BACK THEN.

TELL ME WHAT IT WAS ABOUT HER,

THE MAJESTY YOU DESCRIBE HERE,

AND WHY YOU DECIDED THIS WAS THE

RIGHT JUMPING OFF POINT FOR YOU

IN YOUR STORIES?

>> I WANTED TO CONNECT THE

STORIES SO THEY WE CAN

UNDERSTAND THE FLUID WIDFLUIDIT

HISTORY.

AND AS A LEGAL HISTORIAN, I

ENJOY HELPING US TO UNDERSTAND

THAT LAW HAS PLAYED A MAJOR

ROLE, AND SO, WE HAVE THIS

PRINCESS IN ANGOLA THAT CONNECTS

TO AMERICA BECAUSE THE AFRICANS

WHO ARRIVED IN 1619 IN THE

VIRGINIA COLONY WERE FROM

ANGOLA.

AND SO PRINCESS NZINGA HAS

WATCHED HER FATHER INTERACT WITH

THE PORTUGUESE, WHO HAVE NOW

INVADED WHAT WE WKNOW NOW AS

ANGOLA.

SHE'S WATCHED HER FATHER

NAVIGATE THE EGOS OF THE TRIBAL

MEN FROM THIS NATION, WHICH SOME

PEOPLE HAVE SAID WAS AS LARGE AS

CONNECTICUT, NEW YORK STATE AND

NEW JERSEY.

AND SHE'S WATCHED HER BROTHER

PLAY AROUND WITH THE SPEAR AND

THE SWORD WHILE SHE UNDERSTOOD

HOW TO USE THE KNIFE, SHE WAS

TRAINED WITH THIS, BECAUSE THEY

SAID SHE HAD SUCH A NATURAL

ABILITY.

SO, THEY GAVE HER PRIVATE

LESSONS IN HOW TO BE A WARRIOR.

AND SO, THERE WERE SO MANY

AFRICAN QUEENS THAT HAVE COME

OVER TIME, THERE ARE STILL

AFRICAN KINGS AND QUEENS TO THIS

DAY.

SO, I SAID, LET ME TRACE HER

BATTLE AGAINST THE PORTUGUESE,

WHO SHE FOUGHT TO TRY TO STOP

THE SLAVE TRADE.

>> YOU MENTION, ALSO, AND I

THINK THIS IS FASCINATING, THAT

AFRICA HAD A HISTORY, A LONG AGO

HISTORY, OF -- OF WOMEN LEADERS,

BLACK WOMEN LEADERS, WHO WERE

ROYALTY, WHO WERE POLITICALLY

ADEPT.

WHO WERE MAMARSHALLY ADEPT.

WHY DID YOU THINK IT WAS SO

IMPORTANT TO INCLUDE THAT, THAT

NOTION OF ROYALTY AND LEADERSHIP

HISTORICALLY FOR BLACK WOMEN IN

AFRICA?

>> BECAUSE I DON'T THINK PEOPLE

REALLY UNDERSTAND, LIKE, THEY

BEGIN THE HISTORY WITH SLAVERY

AND WE SHOULD BEGIN THE HISTORY

IN AFRICA, THAT'S THE PROPER

PLACE.

AND PROPERLY BEGIN IT WITH OUR

ROYAL PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOUGHT AND

THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN APART

OF OUR HISTORY AND FEW PEOPLE

KNOW ABOUT THEM AND QUEEN NZINGA

IS -- THINK ABOUT THIS, UNESCO

EVEN SUPPORTS THIS, AND THAT'S

THE LAW WRITTEN DOWN.

IN 1622, SHE NEGOTIATED A PEACE

TREATY WITH THE PORTUGUESE.

SO, HERE SHE IS IN THE FAMOUS

STORY, THAT THEY HAD NO CHAIR

FOR HER, THEY WANTED HER TO SIT

ON THE FLOOR AND SHE CALLS OVER

HER MAID SERVANT AND THEY LEND

THEIR BACK AND SHE SITS ON THEIR

B

BACK.

IT'S AMAZING STORIES.

>> THAT WAS FASCINATING THAT SHE

DID THAT.

I'M NOT SITTING ON THE FLOOR IN

FRONT OF YOU.

I'LL CREATE MY OWN THRONE, IF

YOU WILL, TO DEAL WITH THEM.

LET ME ASK YOU, THERE'S ANOTHER

SIGNIFICANT ASPECT OR AREA OF

THE BOOK WHERE YOU'RE FOCUSING

ON -- AND THAT IS PEOPLE WHO

CHALLENGE THEIR BONDAGE THROUGH

THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THOSE

STORIES THERE.

YOU TELL ONE, AND I HAPPEN TO BE

A LITTLE BIT FAMILIAR WITH IT,

SO, I WAS FASCINATED TO SEE IT,

ABOUT A WOMAN, AN ENSLAVED

PERSON BACK IN MASSACHUSETTS

BACK IN THE LATE 1700s,

ULTIMATELY LATER BECAME

ELIZABETH FREEMAN, BUT TELL US

SOMETHING ABOUT HER STORY AND

WHY YOU WANTED TO INCLUDE IT

HERE.

>> WELL, MUMBET IS WORKING FOR A

VERY PROMINENT MAN IN

MASSACHUSETTS, THE ASHLEYS, AND

THEY ARE ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST

FAMILIES.

HE SERVED IN THE REVOLUTIONARY

WAR.

BUT WHAT REALLY -- I FIND IT

FASCINATING, THE RELATIONSHIP

BETWEEN THE BLACK WOMAN AND THE

WHITE MISTRESS.

NOW, REMEMBER, WHITE WOMEN HAD

TO REAL RIGHTS, EITHER.

THEIR RIGHTS CAME TO THEIR

HUSBANDS.

BUT THEY WOULD TAKE THEIR ANGER

AND THEIR FRUSTRATION OUT ON

THESE BLACK WOMEN THAT WORK IN

THE HOUSE AND THIS WOMAN TOOK

HER ANGER OUT ON MUMBET'S LITTLE

SISTER AND MUMBET STOOD IN THE

WAY AND MUMBET GOT THIS HORRIBLE

BURN ON HER ARM FROM THE SLAVE'S

MISTRESS, MISS ASHLEY.

IT WAS THERE, MUMBET DECIDES, I

KEEP HEARING ABOUT THIS

MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION THAT

GIVES YOU RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS,

WHY DON'T I HAVE ANY RIGHTS AND

FREEDOMS?

SO, SHE GETS A LAWYER AND SHE

DECIDES -- NOW, SHE RETAINS A

LAWYER, AND WE'RE IN 1780.

SHE SUES FOR HER FREEDOM UNDER

THE MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION

WANDS.

>> AND WINS.

AND FASCINATED BY THE STORY.

I WAS FASCINATED BY IT A NUMBER

OF YEARS AGO.

I VISITED THE AREA, I WENT TO A

HISTORICAL SOCIETY AND DID SOME

RESEARCH ON HER.

I WENT TO HER GRAVESITE.

SHE HEARS THE MASSACHUSETTS

CONSTITUTION BEING READ WHERE IT

SAYS ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED FREE

AND EQUAL AND SHE SAID, I GUESS

THAT SHOULD BE ME.

AND THE FACT THAT SHE GETS A

LAWYER TO REPRESENT HER WAS --

IS AN ASTONISHING STORY.

AND CERTAINLY REPRESENTATIVE OF

YOUR TITLE, "SHE TOOK JUSTICE."

WE MENTIONED COLONIAL TIMES.

AS A HISTORIAN AND SOMEBODY WHO

HAS DONE RESEARCH AND

SIGNIFICANT WRITING ON THIS,

BECAUSE YOU TALK IN THE BOOK

ABOUT SEVERAL OF THE FOUNDING

FATHERS, THOMAS JEFFERSON,

GEORGE WASHINGTON, AND CLEARLY

WE HAVE THAT PARADOX THERE THAT

WE'RE WRESTLING WITH NOW, WE'RE

BECOMING MORE AWARE OF IT, THE

IDEA THAT -- THAT THEY WERE

EXTRAORDINARY CHARACTERS WHO

CRAFTED A NEW NATION AND YET

THEY WERE SLAVE HOLDERS.

HOW DO YOU AS A HISTORIAN THINK

WE SHOULD BE RECONCILING THESE

HISTORICAL FIGURES HERE, THEIR

GENIUS AND THEIR FRAILTIES AND

THEIR MORAL SHORTAGES HERE?

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THAT?

>> I THINK YOU JUST SAID IT.

I MEAN, THEY WERE FULLY FLEDGED

HUMAN BEINGS, SO, THEY DID HAVE

THESE FRAILTIES.

AND WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

I THINK IN THIS COUNTRY THERE'S

A VERY IMMATURE OF LOOKING AT

OUR HISTORY.

THAT WE CAN ONLY LOOK AT IT AS

THIS GLOSSED OVER HEROIC TIME

PERIOD.

WE CAN'T SEE ANY OF THE BAD, AS

WELL AS THE GOOD.

AND SO THIS BAD PART, ONCE WE

ACCEPT IT, I THINK WE CAN MATURE

AND GROW AS A NATION.

GEORGE WASHINGTON WAS A SLAVE

HOLDER AND THE PENNSYLVANIA LAW,

BECAUSE THE CAPITAL WAS LOCATED

IN PENNSYLVANIA DURING HIS

PRESIDENCY, HAD A PART OF IT

UNDER THE QUAKERS THAT EVERY SIX

MONTHS, IF A PERSON WAS ENSLAVED

AND KEPT THERE FOR SIX MONTHS,

THEN THEY WOULD BE FREE.

HE WOULD LEAVE ONE DAY BEFORE

THE SIX-MONTH DEADLINE, GO BACK

TO VIRGINIA AND THEN TAKE ALL OF

THE SLAVES WITH HIM AND THEN

COME BACK AND RESTART THE CLOCK.

HE WAS DOING THIS EVERY SIX

MONTHS.

AND ONE OF HIS SLAVES, ENSLAVED

WOMAN THERE, SHE WAS NOW IN THE

PRESIDENCY, YOU MUST BE TREATED

REALLY WELL.

YOU'RE AN ENSLAVED WOMAN OF THE

PRESIDENT, GEORGE WASHINGTON,

THIS BELOVED FIGURE.

SHE RUNS AWAY.

AND NOW HE SENDS BOUNTY HUNTERS

FOR HER AND THIS MAKES THE NEWS

BECAUSE THEY'RE SAYING, GEORGE

WASHINGTON NOT ONLY IS A SLAVE

HOLDER, BUT HE WON'T LET THIS

ONE WOMAN GO.

HIS EGO WOULDN'T TAKE THE FACT

THAT SHE LEFT AND WOULD NOT COME

BACK.

IT WAS LIKE, HOW DARE YOU NOT

LIKE BEING A SLAVE IN THE

PRESIDENT'S MANSION, LIKE, OF

ALL PLACES.

I MEAN, HOW DARE YOU STILL WANT

FREEDOM?

AND THAT'S WHY SHE TOOK JUSTICE.

EVEN WHEN PEOPLE DIDN'T

UNDERSTAND THAT BURNING LIGHT

INSIDE OF A BLACK WOMAN, THAT

SHE KNEW SHE WAS MORE THAN

SHADOW, MORE THAN SOMETHING TO

BE BRED TO MAKE THE LABOR FORCE

FOR THIS COUNTRY, WHICH WAS

HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY.

SHE WAS MORE THAN THAT, THE LAW

MIGHT HAVE SAID SHE WAS NOTHING,

BUT SHE KNEW SHE HAD SOMETHING

INSIDE OF HER AND SHE KEPT THAT.

AND THAT MADE PEOPLE ACTUALLY

RISK ALL TO GAIN THEIR FREEDOM

EVEN IF IT MEANT LEAVING THAT

HOME OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE

UNITED STATES.

>> YOU TELL SO MANY COMPELLING

STORIES, ONE VERY INTERESTING

ONE IN NEW YORK CITY, A WOMAN BY

THE NAME OF ELIZABETH JENKINS.

NOW, WE ALL KNOW THE ROSA PARKS

STORY, AND I HAD THE PRIVILEGE

OF MEETING HER ONCE BEFORE AND

TALKING WITH HER BEFORE SHE

PASSED AWAY.

ELIZABETH JENKINS -- JENNINGS,

I'M SORRY, INVOLVED IN A SIMILAR

CASE, BUT 100 YEARS BEFORE ROSA

PARKS.

TELL US ABOUT ELIZABETH

JENNINGS.

>> IN 1854, MANHATTAN, SHE'S

GOING TO CHURCH IN HER SUNDAY

BEST IN A STREETCAR AND THESE

WOMEN AND MEN, WHITE WOMEN AND

MEN DON'T WANT HER ON THE

STREETCAR.

SLAVERY HAS ENDED.

SHE'S A FREE PERSON, THERE'S NO

SLAVERY IN NEW YORK.

AND SHE'S ON THE STREETCAR, THEY

DEMAND THE CONDUCTOR REMOVE HER

BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO RIDE

ON THE SAME PUBLIC

TRANSPORTATION AS SHE AND THEY

DRAG HER OFF THE STREETCAR, BEAT

HER UP, THROW HER ON THE GROUND,

TEAR HER SUNDAY DRESS AND SHE

SUES.

THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND, HER

BROTHER IS A VERY HIGH LEVEL

POPULAR MINISTER, SHE GETS A

LAWYER, SHE SUES AND GETS

DAMAGES.

NOW ONLY DOES SHE WIN, SHE GETS

DAMAGES FOR THE PERSONAL INSULT

AND THE TEAR TO HER DRESS.

>> TALKING ONCE AGAIN WITH

PROFESSOR GLORIA BROWNE-MARSHALL

ABOUT HER BOOK ENTITLED "SHE

TOOK JUSTICE: THE BLACK WOMAN

LAW IN POWER."

YOU TALK ABOUT -- ABOUT GOING TO

COURT AND THIS GOES BACK TO, IN

MANY WAYS, THE FIRST QUESTION

THAT I ASKED, THAT YOU AND I

TALKED ABOUT, THE IDEA THAT --

THAT THE LAW WAS THE ENEMY OF

BLACK WOMEN AND THEN BECAME A

WEAPON.

HOW DID YOU SEE THAT EVOLUTION,

IF YOU WILL, WHERE THE COURTS

PROVIDED NO -- NOT ONLY NO

ASSISTANCE, BUT YOU KNOW, WE

LOOK AT DREAD SCOTT AND HIS WIFE

AND THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, WE

LIKE TO THINK THE SUPREME COURT,

THIS BASTIAN OF ALL WISDOM, THE

SUPREME COURT SAYS YOU ARE

PROPERTY.

YOU MENTION IN THE BOOK THAT

EVEN FREE BLACKS IN MOST STATES

COULD NOT TESTIFY IN COURT.

THEY WERE CONSIDERED FREE, BUT

BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK, THEY

COULD NOT TESTIFY.

SO, HOW DID YOU SEE THIS

EVOLUTION, THEN, IN THE COURTS,

BEING THE ENEMY AGAIN, TO THE

WILLINGNESS ON THE PART OF BLACK

WOMEN TO SAY, I AM GOING TO

USE -- EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THE

OBSTACLES, I'M GOING TO GET INTO

COURT AND SEE WHAT I CAN

ACCOMPLISH THERE.

>> WELL, IT'S THE BRILLIANCE OF

THE BLACK WOMAN.

THAT'S WHY I START WITH QUEEN

NZINGA.

BLACK WOMEN STARTED BRINGING

LAWSUITS IN THE 1600s.

THE IDEA THAT WE ARE -- THIS

MOST LITIGIOUS NATION IN THE

WORLD, WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN THAT

WAY.

THE WAY IS USING LAW, IF LAW CAN

OPPRESS ME AND YOU TELL ME WE

HAVE A COURT SYSTEM, I'M GOING

TO USE LAW.

JUST THINK ABOUT HOW BOLD THAT

IS, TO BE THOUGHT OF AS PROPERTY

AND THEN AT THE SAME TIME SAY,

WELL, YOU CLAIM THIS IS YOUR

LEGAL SYSTEM, THAT YOU THEN, YOU

KNOW, PURPORT TO SAY IS THE BEST

SYSTEM AND THIS IS THE BEST

COUNTRY, WELL, SHOW ME.

I'M GOING TO USE YOUR LEGAL

SYSTEM AGAINST YOU.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST BRILLIANT.

AND I THINK OF THE BOLDNESS OF

THESE WOMEN WHO SAID, YOU KNOW,

THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO

TELL ME UNDER YOUR LAWS THAT I

HAVE NO RIGHTS.

AND SO THEY WOULD CHALLENGE

AGAIN AND AGAIN AND THESE

FREEDOM CASES, THERE WERE

HUNDREDS OF FREEDOM CASES.

I HAVE A HANDFUL THERE

REPRESENTATIVE OF THE DIFFERENT

CASES THAT WERE BROUGHT BY BLACK

WOMEN WHO SAID, IN A TRIBAL

COURT, IN THESE TRIBUNALS, SOME

OF THEM WERE ALLOWED IN REGULAR

COURT, BUT MOSTLY IT WAS SLAVE

TRIBUNAL COURTS.

IN THESE SLAVE TRIBUNAL COURTS,

THEY SAY, WELL, THEY TOOK ME OUT

OF THE STATE, THEY TOOK ME TO A

FREE STATE AND I SHOULD FREE,

RIGHT?

AND SO, IT'S LIKE, THEY WOULD

BRING THESE LAWSUITS AND

REPRESENT THEMSELVES.

BUT WE ALSO HAD, AND THERE'S

ALWAYS BEEN WHITE PEOPLE OF GOOD

WILL WHO THEN SAID, I'LL TAKE

YOUR CARE.

REMEMBER THAT MUMBET CASE,

NEEDED THAT WHITE MALE ATTORNEY

TO ACTUALLY REPRESENT HER IN

COURT.

SO THERE WERE ALWAYS PEOPLE OF

GOOD WILL WHO WERE WHITE WHO

WERE WILLING TO STEP FORWARD,

NOT AS MANY AS WE SHOULD HAVE

HAD AND NOT AS OFTEN AS SHOULD

HAVE TAKEN PLACE, BUT THESE

BLACK WOMEN SAID, EVEN IF YOU

DON'T REPRESENT ME, IF I CAN'T

FIND A LAWYER, I'LL REPRESENT

MYSELF.

>> YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT THE

WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT IN THE

LATE 1800s, EARLY 1900s, BEFORE,

FINALLY, 1920, I BELIEVE IT WAS,

THE U.S. SUPREME COURT ACTED ON

THIS.

AND THERE WERE FIGHTS WITHIN ALL

OF THE STATES BEFORE THIS, THE

MOVE SHIFTED TO, LET'S SEE IF WE

CAN DO THIS IN THE FEDERAL

SYSTEM.

AND YOU FOCUS ON THE FACT THAT

THERE WERE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER

OF BLACK WOMEN LEADING THE

SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT.

BUT THERE BECAME CONFLICT WITH

WHITE WOMEN IN THE SUFFRAGE

MOVEMENT.

NOW, THEY'RE ALL LOOKING FOR THE

SAME THING.

WHICH IS THE ABILITY TO SAY, WE

SHOULD BE ABLE TO VOTE.

WHAT -- WHAT CREATED THAT --

THAT FRICTION AND EVEN INDEED

CONFLICT BETWEEN THE GROUPS?

>> WELL, THAT GOES BACK TO THE

TITLE, "SHE TOOK JUSTICE,"

BECAUSE YOU WOULD THINK THAT

THESE WOMEN WOULD BE ALLIES, BUT

WHITE WOMEN WERE NOT, FOR THE

MOST PART.

AFTER 1848 IN SENECA FALLS WHEN

WHITE WOMEN AND FREDERICK

DOUGLASS MET TO HAVE THIS

DECLARATION OF RIGHTS AND THAT

THEY SHOULD BE EQUAL, THESE

WHITE WOMEN TURNED THEIR BACKS

ON BLACK WOMEN LIKE IDA B.

WELLS-BARNETT.

AND THEN THEY ALSO PLAYED ON

THIS ISSUE OF LYNCHING, SAYING

THAT THESE BLACK MEN ARE

LYNCHING WOMEN AND -- ARE BEING

LYNCHED BECAUSE THEY ARE

ATTACKING WHITE WOMEN AND SO THE

LYNCHINGS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE,

WE'RE GOING TO SUPPORT THE

LYNCHINGS AND THE BLACK WOMEN

SAID, YOU CAN'T, BECAUSE IT'S

UNTRUE, IT'S NOT ABOUT WHITE

WOMEN AT ALL.

BUT THESE WHITE WOMEN PLAYED ON

THAT TO GET THE SOUTHERN FEMALE

SUPPORT.

SO, I THINK TOO OFTEN THE ISSUES

THESE WHITE WOMEN HAD THAT THEY

CARRIED FORWARD WERE ISSUES THAT

WERE TO THE BLACK WOMEN'S

POLICIES, BUT THE WHITE WOMEN

HAD PREJUDICES TO KEEP BLACK

WOMEN OUT.

SO, BLACK WOMEN CREATED THEIR

OWN ORGANIZATIONS.

ONCE AGAIN, "SHE TOOK JUSTICE,"

BY CREATING HER OWN.

IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE SUPPORT

OF WHITE WOMEN, THEY WOULD GO

FORWARD.

BUT REMEMBER, THERE WERE MANY

BLACK MEN THAT DID NOT SUPPORT

BLACK WOMEN GETTING THE RIGHT TO

VOTE.

AND BOOKER T. WASHINGTON WAS ONE

OF THEM.

HE WAS THE MOST FAMOUS BLACK MAN

AT THE TIME AND HE DID NOT

SUPPORT BLACK WOMEN OR WOMEN

GENERALLY HAVING THE RIGHT TO

VOTE.

SO, SHE HAD TO GO FORWARD ON HER

OWN, BUILDING HER OWN GRASSROOTS

ORGANIZATIONS AND HER OWN SOCIAL

JUSTICE AND SOCIAL SERVICE

ORGANIZATIONS IN HER COMMUNITY.

>> MENTIONED THE NOTION OF

LYNCHINGS.

THE HORRIFIC NOTION OF

LYNCHINGS.

AND YOU TALK IN THE BOOK -- THE

LYNCHINGS DOESN'T JUST MEAN

HANGINGS, IT'S THE TERM FOR ANY

EX

EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS.

AND WE KNOW POSTRECONSTRUCTION

INTO THE 1960s, IN ALL AREAS IN

THE COUNTRY, THERE WERE PLACES

SUCH AS INDIANA THAT WERE THE

HOT BED OF THE KKK, THERE WERE

SOME -- I SAW STATISTICS, SOME

5,000 DOCUMENTED LYNCHINGS IN

THAT PERIOD.

DOCUMENTED.

AND HISTORIANS BELIEVE THERE ARE

THOUSANDS MORE UNDOCUMENTED.

GIVE ME, GOT ABOUT FOUR, FIVE

MINUTES HERE.

I WANT TO DO THIS AND I HAVE

ANOTHER BIG PICTURE QUESTION TO

WRAP UP WITH.

BUT GIVE ME A SENSE OF THE

NOTIONS SURROUNDING THESE

LYNCHINGS, ESPECIALLY INLE

VOVING BLACK WOMEN THAT YOU TRY

TO DISPEL HERE.

>> WELL, ONE IS IT WAS ABOUT THE

ASSAULT ON A WHITE WOMAN.

WHEN WE GET TO THE 19th

AMENDMENT AND THE ABILITY OF

BLACK WOMEN AND ALL WOMEN,

SUPPOSEDLY, TO VOTE, YOU SEE THE

ATTACKS ON BLACK WOMEN.

BLACK WOMEN WERE LYNCHED.

SO, WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THAT

NOTION.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT

LYNCHINGS WERE AGAINST BLACK MEN

WERE BASED IN MANY PARTS BY

COMPETITION.

IF A BLACK MAN OPENED A STORE OR

HAD A BUSINESS OR HAD SOMETHING

THAT WAS BETTER THAN A WHITE

PERSON, THEN THIS ANGER WOULD

BE, HOW DARE YOU HAVE MORE THAN

I DO, DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT

WHITE PEOPLE SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE

MORE?

AND SO AFTER THE WAR, WORLD WAR

I, WHEN BLACK MEN CAME BACK HOME

IN UNIFORMS, THERE WAS AN UPTICK

IN LYNCHINGS.

ALL THESE THINGS WOULD HAPPEN

THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH AN

ASSAULT ON A WHITE WOMAN AND WE

ALSO NEED TO KNOW THAT, YOU

KNOW, WHITE MEN WERE WEARING

BLACK FACE AT THE TIME, SO THOSE

ASSAULTS ON WHITE WOMEN COULD

HAVE BEEN BY WHITE MEN IN BLACK

FACE.

WE DON'T KNOW.

BUT WE DO KNOW THE RESULT WAS

THAT BLACK MEN AND WOMEN, ONE OF

THE MOST FAMOUS CASES OF A BLACK

WOMAN BEING LYNCHED, WAS MARY

TURNER, WHO WAS PREGNANT AND HAD

THE FETUS CUT OUT OF HER,

STOMPED UP --

>> HANG HER FOR COMPLAINING

ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAD

LYNCHED HER HUSBAND THE DAY

BEFORE.

LET ME ASK YOU LAST QUESTION

HERE, I'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE

AND A HALF.

YOU'RE A HISTORIAN.

YOU'VE BEEN RESEARCH ON THIS.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM PUTTING

THIS BOOK TOGETHER THAT YOU HOPE

OTHERS WILL TAKE FROM IT?

>> I LEARNED ABOUT TENACITY THAT

IS, DON'T BE ASHAMED OF YOUR

TEN

TENACITY, YOUR BOLDNESS AS A

WOMAN.

THESE WOMEN HAD SO LITTLE AND

DID SO MUCH WITH IT.

THEY LOST SOMETIMES, MANY TIMES

THEY LOST THEIR LIVES, THEY LOST

THEIR LIVELIHOODS, PEOPLE LIKE

DA

DAISY BATES, NEVER HAD THE LEGAL

LIFE OR STABILITY PROTECTIONS

THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE HAD AS

WOMEN, AS AMERICAN CITIZENS, BUT

THEY FOUGHT ON ANYWAY.

I LEARNED FROM THEM THAT YOU

HAVE TO KEEP PUSHING FORWARD,

NOT JUST FOR YOUR GENERATION AND

YOURSELF, BUT FOR FUTURE

GENERATIONS, BECAUSE WE STAND ON

THE SHOULDERS OF THOSE

GENERATIONS OF WOMEN WHO FOUGHT

AND THEY TOOK JUSTICE SO THEY WE

COULD HAVE JUSTICE TODAY.

>> AND CERTAINLY, I SAID LAST

QUESTION, ONE LAST, LAST

QUESTION FOR YOU, THE IMPORTANCE

OF US KNOWING THESE STORIES, WHY

SO IMPORTANT?

>> EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW AMERICAN

HISTORY.

THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY.

WE SHOULDN'T SHY AWAY FROM IT.

AND WE SHOULD GIVE RESPECT AND

ATTRIBUTION TO THE BLACK WOMAN

FOR WHAT SHE HAS BEEN THROUGH,

FOR WHAT THIS COUNTRY HAS DONE

FOR HER, FOR WHAT SHE HAS

CONTRIBUTED INTELLECTUALLY AS

WELL AS PHYSICAL CONTRIBUTIONS

FROM THE LABOR THAT SHE'S GIVEN

TO THE INTELLECT SHE'S GIVEN AND

CREATIVITY.

SHE IS AN AMAZING EXAMPLE OF

WHAT A HUMAN BEING IS AND CAN BE

DESPITE ALL OBSTACLES AND ANYONE

SHOULD READ THESE STORIES AND

FEEL THAT THEY, TOO, CAN DO MORE

WITH THEIR LIVES, GIVEN WHAT

THESE BLACK WOMEN FACED IN

OPPOSITION AND WERE ABLE TO DO

DESPITE EVERYTHING.

AND I LIKE TO END WITH, IF WOMEN

WANT MORE RIGHTS THAN WHAT THEY

GOT, THEY NEED TO TAKE THEM, NOT

JUST TALKING ABOUT IT.

IF YOU DON'T GET IT, THEN YOU

HAVE TO STAND UP AND ACTUALLY

TAKE THE JUSTICE THAT YOU NEED.

>> YEAH.

I LOVE THAT QUOTE YOU HAVE IN

THE VERY FRONT OF THE BOOK.

ESSENTIALLY, SHE WANTS IT, SHE

NEEDS TO TAKE IT.

AND AS YOU TALK ABOUT HERE, "SHE

TOOK JUSTICE."

IT'S PROFESSOR GLORIA

BROWNE-MARSHALL.

THE BOOK ENTITLED "SHE TOOK

JUSTICE: THE BLACK WOMAN LAW AND

POWER 1619-1969."

AS I MENTIONED IN THE VERY

BEGINNING, IT'S SUCH A POWERFUL

AND COMPELLING BOOK, SUCH A

THOUGHT-PROVOKING BOOK.

IN MANY WAYS, AND THIS IS

INTENDED TO BE A COMPLIMENT TO

YOU AS A RESEARCH AND WRITER,

IT'S A HORRIFYING BOOK IN TERMS

OF THE STORIES THAT ARE

CONTAINED, STORIES THAT WE DON'T

KNOW AND CERTAINLY AS A NATION,

WE NEED TO KNOW.

PROFESSOR, ALWAYS GOOD TO TALK

WITH YOU.

SO GLAD WE WERE ABLE TO GET

TOGETHER AND DO THIS AND I'LL

LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR NEXT

CONVERSATION.

>>"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE

BY --

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III,

SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA

PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT

ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN

GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ,

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG,

THE AMBROSE MON NEL FOUNDATION.

AND BY --

JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND

JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP

MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH

WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA

SOHN FOUNDATION, THE JPB

FOUNDATION.