>>> NEXT, DAVARIAN BALDWIN IS A

PROFESSOR OF AMERICAN STUDIES AT

TRINITY COLLEGE IN CONNECTICUT.

HIS NEW BOOK "IN THE SHADOW OF

THE IVORY TOWER, HOW

UNIVERSITIES ARE PLUNDERING OUR

CITIES," IT IS ABOUT HIGHER

EDUCATION'S SOMETIMES NEGATIVE

IMPACT ON BLACK AND BROWN LOCAL

RESIDENTS.

HERE IS HARI SREENIVASAN

SPEAKING TO HIM ABOUT THIS.

THIS IS PART OF AN ONGOING

CONVERSATION CALLED "CHASING THE

DREAM".

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK LAYS OUT AN ARGUMENT

THAT ESSENTIALLY UNIVERSITIES

HAVE AMASSED ENORMOUS, UNCHECKED

AMOUNTS OF POWER.

YOU'RE NOT JUST LOOKING AT SMALL

SCHOOLS OR BIG SCHOOLS OR LESSER

KNOWN SCHOOLS OR IIVIES.

YOU TAKE APART YALE AND NEW

HAVEN, WHICH ARE IN MANY WAYS

SYNONYMOUS.

HOW DOES YALE GET MORE OUT OF

NEW HAVEN THAN NEW HAVEN DOES

OUT OF YALE?

>> COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE

DESIGNATED AS NONPROFITS.

THEIR PROPERTY IS TAX EXEMPT.

NOW, THE MONEY THAT COMES FROM

PROPERTY TAXES IS WHAT DIRECTLY

UNDERWRITES THINGS IN THE PUBLIC

GOOD LIKE SCHOOLS, SECONDARY

SCHOOLS, TRASH REMOVAL, SNOW

REMOVAL.

THINKING ABOUT TEXAS A MONTH

AGO, THE ELECTRICAL GRID.

SO THE BASIC INFRASTRUCTURE OF

CITIES COMES FROM PROPERTY

TAXES.

SO AS YALE BECAME NOT ONLY THE

BIGGEST LANDHOLDER IN NEW HAVEN,

THE BIGGEST EMPLOYER IN NEW

HAVEN, PEOPLE BEGAN TO SEE A

DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN THE

MONEY THAT YALE WAS NOT PAYING

IN PROPERTY TAXES AND ITS GRAND

EXPANSION AND THE STRUGGLING

CONDITIONS OF THE CITY OF NEW

HAVEN.

>> BECAUSE THE CITY STILL HAS TO

PICK UP THE TRASH ON CAMPUS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THE CAMPUS STILL BENEFITS

FROM THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THE

CITY PROVIDES.

>> SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS,

COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE

GOING TO SAY WHAT ABOUT ALL OF

THE BENEFITS THAT WE BRING TO

THE PUBLIC GOOD?

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU LOOK AT

PRINCETON AND YOU SAY THEY'VE

GOT A BUNCH OF PATENTS, THEY'VE

GOT AMAZING DISCOVERIES, THEY'VE

GOT LOTS OF THINGS THAT THE

CAMPUS AND THE STUDENTS AND

FACULTY HAVE HELPED DISCOVER IN

LOTS OF DIFFERENT FIELDS.

WHAT'S GOOD FOR PRINCETON, ISN'T

THAT GOOD FOR THE TOWNSHIP OF

PRINCETON?

>> FOR SOME, BUT NOT FOR OTHERS.

I WAS ABLE TO CONDUCT OVER 100

INTERVIEWS.

I FOCUSED ON THE STORIES OF

PEOPLE WHO I SAY LIVE IN THE

SHADOWS OF THE IVORY TOWER.

ONE EXAMPLE OF THOSE KINDS OF

PEOPLE ARE THE RESIDENTS OF THE

HISTORICALLY BLACK WITHERSPOON

JACKSON NEIGHBORHOOD THAT

SURROUNDS THE CAMPUS OF

PRINCETON.

IN 2015, IT BEGAN TO REALIZE

THAT THEIR PROPERTY TAXES OF THE

HOMEOWNERS WAS GOING UP.

THEY WONDERED WHY.

THEY INVESTIGATED AND REALIZED

THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE SITTING

NEXT TO PRINCETON BUILDINGS THAT

WERE PRODUCING MILLIONS IN

ROYALTIES BUT REMAINED TAX

EXEMPT, THEIR TAXES WERE GOING

UP AND THEY WERE REAPING NO

BENEFIT FROM THESE DISCOVERIES

AND INNOVATIONS BEING CREATED ON

THIS CAMPUS.

SO THEY FILED A LAWSUIT AND WON

MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, BECAUSE IT

BECAME CLEAR THAT, AGAIN, THERE

WAS A DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN

THE COSTS THEY WERE PAYING, THE

BURDEN THEY WERE TAKING ON IN

THE CITY INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE

MONEY IN PROPERTY TAXES THAT

PRINCETON WAS NOT PAYING WHILE

REAPING BENEFITS FROM THAT VERY

EXEMPTION AND FINANCIAL SHELTER.

ONE OF THE PLAINTIFFS IN THAT

CASE WAS SO DISGUSTED THAT HE

CALLED PRINCETON A HEDGE FUND

THAT CONDUCTS CLASSES.

>> AREN'T THERE UNIVERSITIES

THAT DO CONTRIBUTE BEYOND TAXES?

IS THERE SOMETHING THAT

UNIVERSITIES ARE DOING BESIDES

THE TAX EXEMPT STATUS THAT MAKES

SUCH LAND OWNERSHIP PROBLEMATIC

FOR THE COMMUNITIES?

>> THEY'RE SETTING THE LAND

VALUE OF THESE PROPERTIES.

NOT ONLY ARE PROPERTY TAXES OF

HOMEOWNERS INCREASING, BUT

LANDLORDS ARE RETRO FITTING

RENTAL PROPERTIES TO MEET THE

NEEDS OF STUDENTS AND FACULTY AT

THE COST OF WORKING CLASS

FAMILIES.

AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE

ENGAGING IN HEALTH CARE WORK.

THEY RECEIVE A TAX EXEMPTION,

THE MEDICAL SCHOOLS AND THE

MEDICAL FACILITIES RECEIVE A TAX

EXEMPTION BECAUSE THEY'RE

SUPPOSED TO BE PROVIDING

INDIGENT CARE.

WE'RE FINDING OUT IN PLACES LIKE

YALE NEW HAVEN HOSPITAL AND

JOHNS HOPKINS HOSPITAL IS THAT

THEY'RE NOT BEING TOTALLY

TRANSPARENT ABOUT THE KINDS OF

INDIGENT CARE THEY COULD

PROVIDE.

SO THEY'RE FOCUSING ON

PROFITABLE CANCER RESEARCH AND

PLASTIC SURGERY, WHILE AT THE

SAME TIME WHEN THEY DO SERVE

THESE COMMUNITIES, WHEN THE

NEIGHBORHOOD RESIDENTS AREN'T

ABLE TO FULLY PAY, THEY'RE

PUTTING LIENS ON HOMES WHEN IN

SOME CASES THE CARE THEY'RE

OFFERING PROBABLY COULD BE

COVERED BY THE INDIGENT CARE

MANDATE AND THE COSTS COULD BE

REDUCED.

THEN ALL OF THESE ECONOMIC

DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS THAT ARE

COMING OUT OF THE UNIVERSITIES

ARE PROTECTED BY PRIVATE AND

QUASI PRIVATE UNIVERSITY POLICE

FORCES THAT ARE ENGAING IN ACTS

OF RACIAL PROFILING.

WHEN YOU HAVE PREDOMINANTLY

WHITE UNIVERSITIES IN BLACK AND

BROWN NEIGHBORHOODS, LOCALS ARE

HAVING TO WEAR THE UNIVERSITY

PARAPHERNALIA SO THEY DON'T GET

PROFILED.

AS THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO'S

JURISDICTION EXTENDED BEYOND THE

CAMPUS, IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD HE

GOT STOPPED FOUR OR FIVE TIMES A

WEEK BY UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO

POLICE DEPARTMENT SOMETIMES

BEFORE THE CAR EVEN STOPPED,

POLICE OFFICERS JUMPED OUT WITH

THE STANDARD MANTRA, WHERE ARE

THE DRUGS AT, WHERE ARE THE GUNS

AT.

THIS IS A YOUNG MAN WHO NEVER

HAD BEEN IN THE POLICE SYSTEM

WHO ENDURED THIS.

YOU CAN SAY HE DIDN'T GET SHOT

OR BEAT UP, BUT THE TRAUMA AND

THE INCONVENIENCE AND THE

FEELING OF ALWAYS BEING UNDER

SURVEILLANCE IN A QUASI

UNIVERSITY REPUBLIC WITH ITS OWN

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND ITS OWN

POLICE FORCE -- SENATOR MARY

WASHINGTON IN BALTIMORE, WHEN

JOHNS HOPKINS WAS ATTEMPTING TO

CREATE ITS OWN POLICE FORCE, SHE

DESCRIBED IT AS PUTTING LIKE A

VATICAN CITY IN THE MIDDLE OF

BALTIMORE BECAUSE OF THE CONTROL

THAT THESE UNIVERSITIES HAVE

OVER THESE NEIGHBORHOODS.

>> WE'RE HAVING THIS

CONVERSATION IN THE WAKE OF THE

VERDICT OF GEORGE FLOYD.

I'M WONDERING WHAT KINDS OF

MEASURES DO YOU THINK COULD

TRICKLE DOWN FROM WHAT POLICE

DEPARTMENTS ARE LOOKING AT NOW

AND WHAT CAMPUS POLICE SHOULD BE

LOOKING AT?

>> WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO

UNDERSTAND IS THAT AS -- LET'S

BE HONEST -- WHITE PARENTS SEND

THEIR CHILDREN TO THESE SCHOOLS

IN THESE BLACK AND BROWN

NEIGHBORHOODS, THEY BEGIN TO

LOBBY UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS TO

DO SOMETHING AS THEIR KIDS BEGIN

TO LIVE IN OFF CAMPUS HOUSING.

SO IN CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY,

UNIVERSITIES HAVE ENTERED INTO

MEMORANDUMS OF UNDERSTANDING

WITH CITY GOVERNMENTS TO GIVE

UNIVERSITY POLICE EITHER

JURISDICTION OVER AREAS,

TARGETING AREAS BEYOND THE MAIN

CAMPUS OR EITHER JURISDICTION

OVER THE ENTIRE CITY.

SO ON TOP OF THAT, IF THESE ARE

PRIVATE UNIVERSITY POLICE, THEY

ARE NOT SUBJECT TO FREEDOM OF

INFORMATION ACT POLICIES.

SO THEY CAN POLICE AND NOT EVEN

TALK ABOUT IT.

THESE, AGAIN, ARE PRIVATE

SECURITY FORCES.

EVEN WHEN THERE ARE PUBLIC

UNIVERSITY POLICE, THEY POLICE

IN WAYS THAT ARE GOVERNED BY

PROTECTING THE UNIVERSITY'S

INTERESTS.

SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND DRUG USE.

TO MAKE CONTINUAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

ABOUT THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND

SUBSTANCE ABUSE ON CAMPUS,

THAT'S NOT GOOD FOR THEIR BRAND.

EVEN THOUGH WE ARE IN A POOR

BLACK AND BROWN NEIGHBORHOOD,

YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE PROTECTED

THROUGH A SHOW OF FORCE.

SOME OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS

WE'VE SEEN IN THE BROADER SENSE

CAN BE APPLIED AND CAN COME OUT

OF UNIVERSITY.

THE UNIVERSITY CAN BE A MODEL

FOR POLICE REFORM AND IN SOME

CASES POLICE ABOLITION OR

DEFUNDING.

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I SPOKE TO

SENATOR WASHINGTON IN BALTIMORE,

SHE POINTED OUT THAT AS WE'RE

TALKING ABOUT THINKING ABOUT

WAYS TO SHIFT SERVICES AND

RESOURCES FROM POLICE, BECAUSE

WE KNOW THAT 80% OF POLICE STOPS

DON'T REQUIRE AN ARMED

CONFRONTATION.

IT'S PRIMARILY SOCIAL SERVICES,

DOMESTIC DISPUTES, ET CETERA.

WE NEED TO SHIFT THE MONEY THAT

HAS BEEN FUNNELED INTO POLICING

BUDGETS TOWARD SOCIAL SERVICES

THAT HAVE BEEN CUT.

AT A UNIVERSITY WHEN YOU HAVE AN

INSTITUTION OF HIGHER LEARNING

WITH A PUBLIC HEALTH OR MEDICAL

SCHOOL, WHERE ELSE CAN WE START

THAN TO HAVE AT LEAST A POLICE

OFFICER PAIRED WITH A PUBLIC

HEALTH PROFESSIONAL, OR SHIFTING

THE BURDEN FROM POLICING TO

PUBLIC HEALTH AND COMMUNITY

SAFETY.

THE UNIVERSE COULD BE A MODEL

FOR DEFUNDING OR POLICE REFORM,

POLICE ABOLITION ACTIVITIES.

COMMUNITY RESIDENTS ON THESE

CAMPUSES HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR

IT FOR DECADES.

>> BEING ONE OF THE LARGEST

LANDOWNERS IN A TOWN, I'M

ASSUMING, COMES WITH SOME

POLITICAL POWER, ESPECIALLY IF

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A NEW

REALITY DEVELOPMENT PROJECT THAT

HOPES TO BRING NEW FUNDS, NEW

ENERGY INTO AN AREA.

>> WHEN THE COLUMBIA WAS PUSHING

TO BUILD ITS WEST HARLEM CAMPUS,

JOURNALISTS FOUND THAT THE

UNIVERSITY HAD PUT MONEY INTO

STATE AGENCIES AS A WAY TO

ENCOURAGE THEM TO USE THEIR

IMMINENT DOMAIN POWERS TO

IDENTIFY CERTAIN AREAS AS

BLIGHTED SO THE UNIVERSITY COULD

GAIN CONTROL.

WHEN THIS WAS DISCOVERED, A

LOWER COURT JUDGE DESCRIBED THE

UNIVERSITY'S EFFORTS TO USE

EMINENT DOMAIN AS MERE SOFT

INDUSTRY.

IT PRODUCES JOBS AND CAN BRING

INVESTMENTS TO THE AREA, SO IT

IS LEGAL.

IT WAS LEGAL TO SAY THAT

IMMINENT DOMAIN COULD BE USED

NOT JUST FOR BRIDGES AND TUNNELS

AND ROADS, BUT FOR GENERAL

PUBLIC GOOD THAT DIDN'T EVEN

REQUIRE PUBLIC ACCESSIBILITY.

IF A UNIVERSITY COULD GAIN

ACCESS TO A WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD

AND DEVELOP DRUGS AND

TECHNOLOGICAL DISCOVERIES --

WHAT'S THE PUBLIC GOOD?

YOU'VE STILL GOT TO PAY INTO IT

EVEN IF IT'S DISCOVERED ON A

UNIVERSITY CAMPUS WITH FEDERAL

MONEY THAT IS FREE TO THE

UNIVERSITY.

YOU COULD TURN IT TO THE PRIVATE

MARKET.

THE UNIVERSITY COULD MAKE

MILLIONS.

IS THAT A PUBLIC GOOD?

GOOD QUESTION.

>> WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED DURING

THE PANDEMIC?

WE'VE SEEN STATISTICS THAT EL

ENROLLMENTS ARE DOWN.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN WHAT QUALIFIES

AS AN ESSENTIAL VERSUS AN

EXPENDABLE WORKER.

>> MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN

ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BECAUSE

UNIVERSITIES ARE IN MANY CASES

THE LARGEST EMPLOYER IN OUR

CITIES -- AND WE'RE NOT TALKING

ABOUT FACULTY.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LOW WAGE

WORKERS IN THE CAFETERIA AND

MAINTAINING THE GROUNDS, SUPPORT

STAFF.

THESE ARE PRIMARILY BLACK AND

BROWN WOMEN.

THE UNIVERSITIES SET THE WAGE

CEILING IN MANY CITIES.

WHATEVER THEY PAY WILL DETERMINE

WHAT OTHER INDUSTRIES HAVE TO

PAY IN THEIR CITIES.

SO DURING THE PANDEMIC, SCHOLARS

AND ACTIVISTS DISCOVERED THAT,

FOR EXAMPLE, HARVARD, WHICH MADE

MONEY IN THEIR KIND OF FINANCIAL

COFFERS DURING THE PANDEMIC AND

ALSO RECEIVED MILLIONS FROM THE

CARES ACT.

THEY'RE USING THE PANDEMIC TO

IMPLEMENT MEASURES.

THOSE WHO ARE EMPLOYED THROUGH A

SUBCONTRACTOR, WHICH IS BECOMING

A LARGER TREND, THAT MOST

UNIVERSITIES ARE NOW WORKING ON

CONTRACTS WITH SUBCONTRACTORS,

SO THAT EVEN IF YOU HAVE A

UNIVERSITY UNION, THOSE

CONTRACTS DON'T APPLY TO THE

SUBCONTRACTED WORKERS, WHICH

HAVE BECOME THE MAJORITY.

AT HARVARD THE SUBCONTRACTOR

WORKERS DIDN'T GET COVERED BY

THE FURLOUGH AGREEMENTS.

THEN THE LAW SCHOOL STARTED

PUSHING BACK ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

IT FORCED HARVARD TO INCLUDE

SUBCONTRACTED WORKERS UNDER THE

FURLOUGH.

IN CHICAGO THEY STARTED TO TAKE

THEIR UNUSED CAFETERIA FOOD OR

EXCESS FOOD AND PACKAGE IT INTO

MEALS FOR FAMILIES IN NEED

DURING THE PANDEMIC.

THEY BEGAN TO OFFER LOANS TO

STRUGGLING SMALL BUSINESSES, ALL

GREAT.

ESPECIALLY WITH THE FOOD ISSUE,

I ASKED WHY ISN'T THIS THE

STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE?

IF YOU CAN DO IT DURING THE

PANDEMIC, WHY CAN'T WE CREATE AN

INFRASTRUCTURE WHERE THESE

INSTITUTIONS CAN TAKE THE FOOD

THEY'RE GOING TO THROW AWAY THE

NEXT DAY AND DISTRIBUTE IT TO

COMMUNITIES OF NEED?

>> IN THE EPILOGUE YOU TAKE US

KIND OF IN THE OPPOSITE

DIRECTION AND SHOW US THAT THERE

ARE WAYS THAT CAN IMPROVE THE

RELATION BETWEEN THE UNIVERSITY

AND THE COMMUNITY IT'S IN.

>> YES.

I ANCHORED THIS DISCUSSION IN

WHAT I SAW AT THE UNIVERSITY

WINNIPEG.

THEY BUILT HOUSING THAT WAS

AVAILABLE TO BOTH UNIVERSITY

AFFILIATES AND RESIDENTS AT A

RANGE OF FINANCIAL LEVELS, FROM

PREMIUM TO MARKET RATE TO

AFFORDABLE RATE TO INCOME.

THEY PUT IN ARRANGEMENTS WITH

THE STUDENT GOVERNMENT TO OPEN

UP DAYCARE SLOTS FOR PEOPLE THAT

WERE IN NEED THAT WERE LIVING IN

THIS HOUSING AS A MORE

AFFORDABLE RATE.

WHAT THEY DID WAS THEY FIRED ONE

OF THOSE MULTINATIONALS AND

CREATED THEIR OWN CALLED

DIVERSITY FOODS.

65% OF THE EMPLOYEES COME FROM

MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES,

WHETHER THAT BE PEOPLE OF COLOR,

NEW IMMIGRANTS, RECENTLY

INCARCERATED, SINGLE MOTHERS,

PEOPLE FROM LGBTQ COMMUNITIES.

AND THEY'RE BEGINNING THE

PROCESS OF CREATING THEM AND

TURNING THEM INTO SHAREHOLDERS.

WHEN PEOPLE SAY TO ME WE HAVE TO

BE PRACTICAL, WHAT ARE YOUR

SOLUTIONS?

THESE ARE MY SOLUTIONS.

WE DON'T HAVE TO GO NORTH OF THE

BORDER TO THINK ABOUT THE

UNIVERSITY CITY RELATIONSHIP IN

A MORE JUST AND EQUITABLE WAY.

WE JUST NEED TO SHIFT OUR VISION

FROM A PROFIT ORIENTED

UNIVERSITY TO A PEOPLE ORIENTED

UNIVERSITY.

THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TO DO.

THESE SOLUTIONS ARE RIGHT

BENEATH OUR FEET.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "IN THE

SHADOW OF THE IVORY TOWER."

DAVARIAN BALDWIN, THANKS FOR

JOINING US.