>>> NOW WE TURN TO THE POWER OF

FRIENDSHIP BUT NOT IN THE WAY

YOU EXPECT IT.

CROSS CLASS CONNECTION.

WE HAVE DIRECTOR OF OPPORTUNITY

INSIGHTS, AN ORGANIZATION

STUDYING HOW TO GIVE

DISADVANTAGED CHILDREN A BETTER

CHANCE OF SUCCESS.

HE SPEAKS TO WALTER ISAACSON

ABOUT HIS RESEARCH AND HOW TO

RESTORE THE AMERICAN DREAM.

THIS IS PART OF OUR ONGOING

LAWSUIT.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

MY PLEASURE.

>> YOU PLESH URD THE OPPORTUNITY

ATLAS AND NOW YOU HAVE TWO

PAPERS IN NATURE WHERE YOU

EXPAND ON THAT.

EXPLAIN THE OPPORTUNITY ATLAS

AND HOW THAT LED TO THESE

PAPERS.

>> YEAH, OBVIOUSLY.

FOR THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS AT

HARVARD, OPPORTUNITY INSIGHTS,

WE'VE BEEN UNDERSTANDING THE

ROOTS OF UPPER MOBILITY.

WHAT GIVES THEM THE BEST CHANCE

OF RISING UP?

WHAT DETERMINES IF YOU ARE

SUCCESSFUL AND IF YOU GROW UP IN

A LOW INCOME FAMILY.

WE USE INFORMATION FROM A NONANY

MICED TAX RETURNS COVERING ALL

CHILDREN BORN IN THE U.S. IN THE

EARLY 1980s TO MEASURE THEIR

CHANCE FOR RISING UP FOR EVERY

ZIP CODE IN AMERICA.

WHAT WE DID IS MAPPED KIDS BACK

TO WHERE THEY GREW UP, LINKED

THEM FROM THEIR PARENTS DOING

TAX RETURNS, IF YOU GROW UP IN A

FAMILY MAKING 35,000 YEARS IN

INCOME?

WHERE WOULD YOU FIND.

THERE'S SOME PARTS OF THE

COUNTRY LIKE MUCH OF RURAL IOWA,

MUCH OF THE GREAT PLAINS WHERE

CHILDREN HAVE GREAT CHANCES OF

RISING INTO MIDDLE CLASS AND

BEYOND BUT THERE ARE OTHER PARTS

OF THE COUNTRY, MUCH OF THE

NORTHEAST, DETROIT, INDIANAPOLIS

WHERE KIDS CHANCES OF RISING UP

ARE MUCH POORER.

SO, WALTER, THE KEY PART IS WHY

IS IT KIDS HAVE MUCH BETTER

CHANCE OF RISING UP THAN OTHERS?

NATURALLY WE AND MANY OTHER

RESEARCHERS HAVE INVESTIGATED A

VARIETY OF ORGANIZATIONS,

QUALITY OF SCHOOLS, POVERTY

RATES.

RATES OF CRIME.

FAMILY STRUCTURE AND SO FORTH

AND PEOPLE HAVE FOUND A ROLE FOR

EACH OF THUS BUT THERE WAS STILL

A LOT THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE.

TRYING TO UNDERSTAND SOCIAL

CAPITAL IN DRIVING ECONOMIC

MOBILITY.

>> ONE OF THE RAD DIKS IS RAKES?

>> YES.

THE IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES BY

MOBILITY IS RIGHT.

IT PLAYS AN INCREDIBLE ROLE

HERE.

IN SOME OF THE EARLIER WE SHOWED

BLACK KIDS, BLACK BOYS HAVE

INLESS OF A CHANT.

IF YOU TAKE A BLACK BOY AND

WHITE BOY STARTING IN A FAMILY

EARNING THE SAME AMOUNT LIVING

IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD, GOING

TO THE SAME SCHOOL, BOTH RAISING

TWO INCOME HOUSEHOLDS.

YOU'RE SEEING SIGNIFICANT

DIFFERENCES IN THEIR PROSPECTS

FOR RISING UP.

THAT IS AN IMPORTANT ONGOING

FACTOR AND WE'RE ALL AWARE OF IT

AND SOMETHING TO BE ADDRESSED

GOING FORWARD.

>> IN THE NEW STORIES YOU USE A

GUSHA OF FACEBOOK.

MILLIONS AND MILLIONS.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW DID YOU GET

THEM TO USE THAT DATA?

HOW DID YOU END UP PROCESSING

THAT MUCH DATA?

>> I WITH MY

CORROBORACORROBORATORS A

PROECHTD META, MARK ZUCKERBERG,

TO FIND OUT IF WE COULD USE IT

TO STUDY.

I THINK LIKE MANY PRIVATE SECTOR

COMPANIES THERE ARE CONCERNS

ABOUT COMPROMISING ANY SINGLE

PERSON'S INFORMATION SO WE TOOK

A NUMBER OF STEPS, WALTER, TO A

NONANY MIZE THE DATA AND WE'RE

NOT INADVERTENTLY REVEALING DATA

OF ANY ONE PERSON.

TAKING OVER SAFEGUARDS.

DATA ON 70 MILLION FACEBOOK

USERS BETWEEN 25 AND 44.

WHY THAT AGE RANGE.

WE WANT TO FOCUS ON AN AGE RANGE

WHERE PEOPLE ARE ON FACEBOOK.

85% OF THE AMERICANS ARE ON THE

FACEBOOK PLATFORMS.

YOU HAVE GOOD DATA ON JUST ABOUT

EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY.

BETWEEN THEM THEY HAVE 21

BILLION FRIENDSHIPS WHICH WE USE

TO ANALYZE AND CORN STRUKT

MEASURES FOR EVERY ZIP CODE,

HIGH SCHOOL, COLLEGE IN AMERICA

ON DIFFERENT NOTIONS OF SOCIAL

CAPITAL.

TO WHAT EXTENT ARE LOW INCOME

AND HIGH INCOME TOGETHER.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS COHESIVENESS.

TO WHAT EXTENT ARE THEY

FRAGMENTED INTO CERTAIN TWEAKS

VERSUS EVERYONE BEING FRIENDS

WITH EVERYONE AND WE'RE A

COHESIVE COMMUNITY.

>> WHAT DID YOU FIGURE OUT ABOUT

WHAT ALLOWS SOME KIDS TO RISE

FROM THE LOWEST LEVELS OF

POVERTY TO UPPER MIDDLE CLASS

AND SOME KIDS NOT TO BE ABLE TO?

>> THERE IS A VERY SIMPLE AND

CLEAR FINDING FROM THE DATA,

WHICH IS IF YOU LOOK AT THE

DIFFERENT MEASURES OF SOCIAL

CAPITAL, MEASURES OF PEOPLE FROM

DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INCOME,

COHESIVENESS, OR OTHER MEASURES

PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT,

VOLUNTEERING RATES, HOW STRONG

IS THE COMMUNITY, THE DATA SHOW

CLEARLY THAT THAT FIRST SET OF

MEASUREMENTS OF CROSS CLASS

INTERACTION ARE STRONGLY

PREDICTED OF UPWARD MOBILITY.

THE STRONGEST TO DATE IN

NUMEROUS STUDIES THAT

RESEARCHERS HAVE DONE.

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT, IF YOU GROW

UP IN A ZIP CODE WHERE LOW

INCOME FOLKS ARE INTERACTING

WITH HIGH INCOME FOLKS, YOU ARE

MORE LIKELY TO RISE OUT OF

POVERTY IF YOU MOVE TO A ZIP

CODE WHERE THERE IS MORE

INTERACTION ACROSS CLASS LINES.

THAT'S A VERY CLEAR RESULT.

WHAT'S NEW, WALTER, AND WHAT GOT

US EXCITED IS THAT THAT

RELATIONSHIP EXPLAINS A LOT OF

PRIOR FINDINGS THAT PEOPLE HAD

ESTABLISHED IN THE LITERATURE SO

WE TALKED EARLIER, FOR EXAMPLE,

ABOUT THE ROLE OF RACE.

IT'S BEEN WELL-DOCUMENTED THAT

MORE RACIALLY SEGREGATED

NEIGHBORHOODS TEND TO HAVE LOWER

RATES OF ECONOMIC UPWARD

MOBILITY.

KIDS ARE LESS LIKELY TO ESCAPE

POVERTY IN AREAS THAT ARE

PREDOMINANTLY BLACK

NEIGHBORHOODS.

WHAT WE SHOW IS THAT PATTERN IS

COMPLETELY EXPLAINED BY CROSS

CLASS INTERACTION CALLED

ECONOMIC CONNECTEDNESS.

THOSE AREAS TEND TO BE VERY

DISCONNECTED.

LOW INCOME KIDS TEND NOT TO HAVE

MUCH CONNECTION WITH PEOPLE WHO

MIGHT HELP THEM.

ONCE WE ACCOUNT FOR THAT, WE CAN

FULLY EXPLAIN WHY MORE RACIALLY

SEGREGATED AREAS HAVE MORE

UPWARD MOBILITY.

A NUMBER OF PREVIOUS PATTERNS

THAT HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTED THAT

ARE SOMEWHAT PUZZLING CAN BE

EXPLAINED BY THIS NEW MEASURE OF

CROSS CLASS.

>> YOU LOOKED AT FACEBOOK

FRIENDING AND YOU FOUND IN SOME

ZIP CODES PEOPLE MADE FRIENDS

WITH OTHER CLASSES AND IN SOME

ZIP CODES THEY STUCK WITH THEIR

CLASSES.

SILVER SPRINGS MARYLAND TO

LITTLE ROCK.

HOW DO YOU FACTOR OUT THE OTHER

THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT

BETWEEN LITTLE ROCK AND SILVER

SPRING, MARYLAND.

WHAT WE'RE ABLE TO DO, WALTER,

IS FIRST IN LOOKING AT KIDS THAT

MOVE TOO THESE NEIGHBORHOODS,

THERE'S SOMETHING WITH CROSS

CLASS COLLABORATION.

IF YOU MOVE HERE EARLIER, YOU

HAVE A BETTER CHANCE THAN IF YOU

MOVE LATER.

IT'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE

ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH YOU'RE

GROWING UP THAT'S HAVING AN

INFLUENCE.

IT RULES OUT THE POSSIBILITY

THAT IT'S JUST DIFFERENT TYPES

OF PEOPLE LIVING IN DIFFERENT

PLACES WHO GET DIFFERENT JOBS.

IT CAN'T BE SOMETHING AS SIMPLE

AS THAT.

SOMETHING SIMPLE, PLACES WHERE

THEY HAVE HIGHER INCOME FRIENDS,

IT TENDS TO BE PLACES WHERE THEY

HAVE LESS POVERTY.

IF YOU LIVE IN A POOR COMMUNITY,

YOU'LL HAVE FEWER HIGH INCOME

FRIENDS.

YOU MIGHT WONDER, PLACES THAT

HAVE LOWER INCOMES, THEY HAVE

LESS RESOURCES FOR THEIR SCHOOLS

WITH PROPERTY TAX FINANCING,

THEY MAY HAVE HIGHER RATES OF

CRIME, THEY MAY HAVE OTHER LACK

OF RESOURCES.

HOW DO WE KNOW IT'S ABOUT

ECONOMIC CONNECTEDNESS THAT ARE

AFFECTING KIDS' OUTCOME.

WHAT WE DO IS COMPARE THE

EFFECTS OF POVERTY RATES VERSUS

CROSS CLASS COLLABORATION.

WE TAKE A BUNCH OF PLACES THAT

HAVE DIFFERENT RATES OF POVERTY

THAT ALL HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF

INTERACTION ACROSS CLASS LINES.

WHAT WE SHOW IS ACROSS THOSE

PLACES THERE'S NOT MUCH OF A

CHANCE OF KIDS RISING UP EVEN

THOUGH SOME ARE RICHER THAN

OTHERS.

NOW THINK OF THE OPPOSITE

DIMENSION.

THINK WHERE THE POOR INTERACT A

LOT WITH THE RICH BUT THEY HAVE

THE SAME LEVELS OF INCOME.

THERE I FIND ENORMOUS INCOMES

AND THE POOR ARE INTERACTING

MORE WITH THE RICH.

DOING COMPARISONS LIKE THIS

ACROSS THE THOUSANDS OF ZIP

CODES IN AMERICA, IT REALLY

LOOKS LIKE THE KEY FACTOR THAT

PREDICTS DIFFERENCES IN ECONOMIC

MOBILITY ARE THE DEGREE OF CROSS

CLASS INTERACTION, NOT POVERTY

RATES.

>> OKAY.

I GET IT.

I REALLY LOVED READING THE

PAPER, BUT WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO

DO ABOUT IT?

WHAT ARE THE POLICY

IMPLICATIONS?

>> YEAH, SO, I THINK WHAT THE

DATA SUGGEST LIKE A LOT OF

RECENT WORK ON THESE ISSUES IS

THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS

CHANGEABLE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT THE

SCANDINAVIAN SYSTEM OR THE 1950s

IN ORDER TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO

CHANGE THINGS.

OFTEN YOU NEED TO LOOK TWO MILES

DOWN THE ROAD AND YOU SEE KIDS

HAVING MUCH BETTER CHANCE OF

RISING UP.

THAT SHOULD BE AN ENCOURAGING

SIGN.

THERE ARE PLACES WHERE THINGS

ARE THRIVING AND I THINK WE NEED

TO FOCUS ON THOSE, LEARN FROM

THEM AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN,

A, MAYBE GIVE KIDS THOSE

OPPORTUNITIES BY HELPING THEM

PERHAPS MOVE TO THOSE

NEIGHBORHOODS.

DESEGREGATING OUR CITIES THROUGH

THINGS LIKE AFFORDABLE HOUSING

AND CHANGES IN ZONING AND SO ON

WHICH CAN CREATE IT AND PROVIDE

BETTER ORGANIZATION.

SECOND, FIND OUT HOW YOU'RE

GOING TO BRING TO THE

NEIGHBORHOODS AND HOW IT'S

LACKING AND WHAT THE LATEST

PAPERS ARE SUGGESTING IS

THINKING ABOUT SOCIAL

INTERACTION AND HOW IN

PARTICULAR YOU BRING PEOPLE

TOGETHER SO THAT THEY'RE

ACTUALLY INTERACTING ACROSS

CROSS LINES MAY BE WORTH

FOCUSING ON.

THERE'S A LOT OF DISCUSSION

ABOUT WHAT WE CALL THE EXPOSURE

DIMENSION.

SO BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER

EFFICIENTLY.

WE TRIED TO CHANGE ZONING LAWS

AND I THINK WHILE WE HAVEN'T

BEEN COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL,

THERE IS FOCUS ON REDUCING

SEGREGATION.

>> SHOWING THIS NEW WORK IS EVEN

CONDITIONALLY, THERE IS A

TENDENCY FOR PEOPLE NOT TO

INTERACT WITH OTHERS CALLED

FRIENDING BIAS AND THAT IS

EQUALLY IMPORTANT, TRYING TO

UNDERSTAND WHY KIDS ARE

SPLITTING APART WITHIN SCHOOLS,

HOW YOU MIGHT CHANGE THAT

THROUGH THINGS LIKE CHANGENESS

TRACKING POLICIES, THE SIZE OF

CLASSROOMS AND SO FORTH.

>> I NOTICED THAT WHEN YOU

LOOKED AT THE FRIENDING DATA.

IF IT'S A REALLY BIG SCHOOL,

REALLY BIG INSTITUTION IT'S

HARDER.

PEOPLE SELF-SEGREGATE A BIT, BUT

IF YOU MAKE IT INTO SMALLER

GROUPS MAYBE CAN YOU HAVE SOME

SOCIOECONOMIC COLLABORATION.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, WALTER.

INTUITION IS SMOOTH.

THINK ABOUT GOING TO A DINNER

PARTY.

SUPPOSE YOU GO TO A PARTY WITH

500 PEOPLE, YOU'LL LOOK FOR THE

FOLKS YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO

ARE THERE.

>> SO THAT PLAYS OUT

SYSTEMATICALLY ACROSS THE

INSTITUTIONS.

ON THE FLIP SIDE UNIVERSITIES,

SCHOOLS, CLUBS BASED ON VARIOUS

THINGS, INCLUDING ETHNIC CLUBS,

RACIAL CLUBS OR FRATERNITIES.

DOES THAT WORK AGAINST CROSS

ECONOMIC MIXING?

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WHAT WE SEE IN THE DA IT IS

COLLEGES THAT HAVE MORE GREEK

LIFE TO TAKE ONE EXAMPLE.

THEY TEND TO BE THE ONES THAT

HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDING BIAS.

YOU CAN HAVE BIG PUBLIC

INSTITUTIONS THAT LOOK VERY

DIVERSE, THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE

BRINGING TOGETHER, IT'S IN

PRACTICE AND EASY TO READ THINGS

LIKE STUDENT NEWSLETTERS, DOs,

THE COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH

ACTIVITIES THAT CERTAIN KIDS

MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE

IN AND NOT OTHERS.

YOU START TO GET THE

SEGMENTATION OF THE STUDENT

BODY.

WHAT WE GIVE IN THE PAPER IS YOU

LOOK AT RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS,

FAITH-BASED ORGANIZATIONS, THOSE

ARE SOME OF THE GROUPS WE SEE

THE LEAST FRIENDING BIAS AND THE

MOST INTERACTION OF CROSS CLASS

LINES.

MY SENSE OF WHAT MIGHT BE GOING

ON THERE IS AT YOUR CHURCH, IN

YOUR SYNAGOGUE, IN YOUR TEMPLE

YOU SEE PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT

BACKGROUNDS AND YOU HAVE

SOMETHING IN COMMON AND THAT

TENDS TO LEAD TO INTERACTIONS

ACROSS CLASS LINES THAT LOOK

DIFFERENT.

SOMETHING TO THINK MORE ABOUT

AND WHAT IS IT ABOUT THOSE

PLACES WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO LEARN

LESSONS AND CREATE MORE

INTERACTIONS IN OTHER SETTINGS

AS WELL.

>> WHAT YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT

GOES TO THE HEART OF THE

AMERICAN DREAM, THIS NOTION THAT

PEOPLE CAN, AS BENJAMIN FAIR AND

ACCURATE LYNN WROTE ABOUT IN HIS

AUTOBIOGRAPHY, START OFF POOR

WITH A FEW COINS IN HIS POCKET

AND MOVE UP IN THE WORLD.

SO BASED ON ALL OF THESE

STUDIES, WHAT CAN PEOPLE LIKE

US, WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE SURE

AMERICA REMAINS A LABTD OF

OPPORTUNITY?

>> SO WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST IS

THE SIMPLEST MESSAGE.

WHEN WE THINK OF ISSUES LIKE THE

AMERICAN DREAM, TRENDS AND

ECONOMIC MOBILITY.

THERE'S A TENDENCY TO THINK, OH,

THAT'S ALL IN THE PRESIDENT'S

HANDS BEFORE ANYTHING CHANGES.

I THINK OF COURSE THIS IS

EXTREMELY SHOWING ARE THERE

THERE'S A LOT WE CAN DO IN OUR

OWN COMMUNITIES TO CREATE MORE

INTEGRATION.

YOU CAN LOOK UP THE DATA

OURSELVES, GO TO

SOCIALCAPITAL.ORG.

TYPE IN YOUR ADDRESS YOU CAN SEE

TO WHAT EXTEND THEY'RE NOT, IS

THAT BECAUSE OF A LACK OF

EXPOSURE BECAUSE THEY'RE

ATTENDING DIFFERENT GROUPS VERSE

HE IS THE FRIENDING BIAS

PHENOMENON, YOU KNOW, IT COULD

BE AS SIMPLE AS WHEN YOU'RE

DOING SIDING WHERE TO SEND YOUR

CAMP AND IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN

CREATING MORE OF THIS, MAYBE YOU

MAKE A DIFFERENT DECISION.

FOSTER A DIFFERENT SET OF

INTERACTIONS WHO YOU INVITE

OVER, WHERE YOU VOLUNTEER, THE

KINDS OF ACTIVITIES YOU

PARTICIPATE IN.

I THINK EACH OF US CAN MAKE A

SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE AT THE

INDIVIDUAL LEVEL.

I ALSO THINK WE NEED SYSTEMATIC

POLICY CHANGES ON THINGS LIKE

POLICY CHANGES, SCHOOLS AND SO

FORTH.

THESE ARE COMPLEX PROBLEMS WHERE

EACH OF US CAN BE EMPOWERED TO

MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN REVIVING

THE AMERICAN DREAM.

>> HEY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR

JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

MY PLEASURE.