>>> NOW, FROM THE CLASSROOM TO

THE WORKPLACE, MANY AMERICAN

BOYS AND MEN ARE STRUGGLING.

THERE HAVE BEEN DECADES AND

EFFORTS TO EMPOWER WOMEN AND

GIRLS BUT IN HIS NEW BOOK,

SCHOLAR RICHARD REEVES SAYS NOT

ENOUGH ATTENTION IS I BEING PAID

TO AMERICAN COUNTERPARTS AND

JOINS TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS ISSUE

MUST BE ADDRESSED AND HOW IT CAN

BE SOLVED.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF THE

ON GOING INITIATIVE ABOUT

POVERTY, JOBS, AND ECONOMIC

OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA CALLED

CHASING THE DREAM.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

RICHARD, YOU HAVE BEEN STUDYING

ALL KINDS OF INEQUALITY AND

POVERTY FOR A LONG TIME.

WHY IS THIS SPECIFIC FOCUS, THIS

BOOK ON BOYS AND MEN AND NOW?

>> THE CLASS GAPS THAT WE'VE

LOOKED AT, THE STUBBORN RACE

GAPS ENTER SECOND.

I SAW GENDER GAPS IN A WAY

PERHAPS USED TO TALKING ABOUT

GENDER GAPS AND GENDER

INEQUALITY IN A WAY THAT

DISFAVORS WOMEN AND GIRLS AND

PLENTY OF THOSE STILL TO TACKLE

BUT INCREASINGLY I WAS SEEING

EVIDENCE MANY MEN, WORKING CLASS

FROM POORER BACKGROUNDS ARE

STRUGGLING IN EDUCATION,

UNEMPLOYMENT AND IT'S ALL A

PIECE FOUND EQUALITY, WE HAVE TO

UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING TO

BOYS AND MEN.

>> WHEN YOU LOOKED BACK AND DOVE

INTO THE DATA, WHAT DO YOU FIND?

>> YOUNG WOMEN ARE DOING MUCH

BETTER IN EDUCATION THAN YOUNG

MEN AND BOYS AND GIRLS.

I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE

REALIZE HOW QUICKLY THE GENDER

AND INEQUALITY FLIPPED.

WE GO TO 1972 TITLE NINE WAS

PASSED TO PROMOTE WOMEN AND GIRL

GIRLS.

MEN WERE 13% MORE LIKELY TO GET

A DEGREE.

BIG HILL TO CLIMB.

TODAY 15% A WOMEN WILL GET A

DEGREE THAN A MAN.

>> IN THE SPACE OF A SHORT

PERIOD OF TIME NOT JUST THAT

WOMEN HAVE CAUGHT UP IN COLLEGE

EDUCATION, WE HAVE A BIG AGENDA

IN EDUCATION AND HIGHER

EDUCATION THAN 50 YEARS AGO.

SOME STATISTICS TOOK ME TO

SURPRISE.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT HIGHER

EDUCATION I CAN HEAR PEOPLE

WATCHING THIS CONVERSATION

SAYING FINE SO THEY MIGHT GET

MORE COLLEGE DEGREES BUT HOW

DOES THAT TRANSLATE INTO POWER

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THERE IS THREE

MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT ARE MEN

FOR EVERY WOMAN AND YOU LOOK AT

THE FORBES 500 COMPANIES AND TEN

TIMES AS MANY ARE MEN.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT CIRCLE?

>> I THINK A COUPLE THINGS.

ONE IS IT REALLY DOES DEPEND

WHERE YOU LOOK AND I THINK IF

YOU'RE JUST LOOKING AROUND THE

APEX OF SOCIETY, LOOKING AT THE

VERY TOP OF POLITICS AND

BUSINESS THEN CLEARLY, THERE IS

STILL A LONG WAY TO GO IN

GETTING CLOSE TO GENDER PARODY

ON BEHALF OF WOMEN AND GIRLS AND

TAKE THE FORTUNE 400 COMPANIES

ARE LED BY WOMEN SO THAT IS

VERY, VERY FAR FROM PARODY.

IT SAYING ZERO 20 YEARS AGO SO

25 YEARS AGO SO HUGE PROGRESS

THE MUCH FURTHER TO GO.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE ELITE, YOU

DON'T LOOK DOWN.

YOU DON'T SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING

DOWN.

WELL THINKING ABOUT ECONOMIC

PROGRESS OVERALL MEN'S WAGES

DECLINED FOR MOST MEN.

FOR MEN AT THE TOP THAT'S NOT

TRUE.

ECONOMIC INEQUALITY IS WIDENING

AS GENDER INEQUALITY IS NARCOTIC

-- NARROWING.

YOU LOOK AT ELITE CIRCLES, YOU

HAVE TO LOOK AT WOMEN AND GIRLS.

THAT'S NOT THE WORLD MOST PEOPLE

LIVE IN WHERE MOST PEOPLE LIVE

THERE ARE BIG GAPS DISFAVORING

MEN IN THE LABOR MARKET AND BOYS

IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.

>> HOW FAR DOWN THAT EDUCATION

SYSTEM DO YOU GO OR CAN YOU

START TO SEE THESE INEQUITIES

WHERE GIRLS ARE OUT PERFORMING

BOYS?

>> WELL, IT'S NOW TRUE THAT IT'S

AT EVERY LEVEL SO WE'VE JUST

SEEN WOMEN OVER TAKE MEN.

THEY'RE WELL AHEAD IN TERMS OF

FOUR-YEAR DEGREES BUT IT AT

EVERY LEVEL SO IN TERMS OF HIGH

SCHOOL GPA FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH IS

A GOOD MEASURE FOR ALL KINDS OF

THINGS, TAKE THE TOP 10% OF HIGH

SCHOOLERS IN TERMS OF GPA,

TWO-THIRDS OF THEM ARE GIRLS AND

THE BOTTOM 2% ARE BOYS AND THE

LINE IS STRAIGHT.

SO VERY BIG ADVANTAGE HIGH

SCHOOL GPA.

THE TRUTH IS PRETTY MUCH EVERY

LEVEL NOW AND IMPORTANT TO SAY

EVERY ADVANCED ECONOMY, NOT JUST

A U.S. PROBLEM AND POST

SECONDARY.

BECAUSE IT'S EVERYWHERE AT EVERY

LEVEL AT EVERY AGE, WE HAVE TO

LOOK TO STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS IN

THE SYSTEM SO I THINK WHAT I

LEARNED IS I KNEW GIRLS WERE WAY

AHEAD IN ENGLISH AND THE AVERAGE

SCHOOL DISTRICT MOST GIRLS WERE

GRADE LEVEL AHEAD.

I HAVE A SENSE, YEAH, THE BOYS

WERE AHEAD IN MATH AND THEY'RE

NOT AND IN THE AVERAGE SCHOOL

DISTRICT, THERE IS A DEAD HEAT

IN MATH AND POORER SCHOOL

DISTRICTS, THE GIRLS ARE A LONG

WAY IN MATH AND ENGLISH.

I HAD THIS IDEA, I THINK A LOT

OF PEOPLE HAVE THIS IDEA GIRLS

ARE BETTER AT SOME THINGS AND

BOYS ARE BETTER AT SOME AND IT

COMES OUT IN THE WASH.

THERE ARE NO SUBJECTS AT ANY

LEVEL WHERE GIRLS ARE BEHIND

BOYS BUT THERE ARE MANY, MANY

WHERE BOYS ARE BEHIND GIRLS.

>> IS ADVANCEMENT OF GIRLS IN

MATH, DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO

DO WITH THE POLICIES AND DPRO

GRAMS THAT WE HAVE TRIED TO MAKE

A CONCERTED EFFORT FOR SCIENCE,

TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING, MAT AND

TRYING TO MAKE SURE GIRLS GET IN

THIS?

IS THIS A SUCCESS IN SOME

SENSES?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> OUR INTERVENTION HAS WORKED?

>> A HUGE SUCCESS.

TO TAKE A STEP BACK FOR A MOMENT

JUST GENERALLY TO MAKE THE POINT

THE TRANSFORMATION AND THE

EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES FOR GIRLS

AND WOMEN AND ECONOMIC OUTCOMES

HAS BEEN STUNNING IN THE LAST 50

YEARS.

ARGUABLY THE GREATEST ECONOMIC

LIBERATION IN HUMAN HISTORY.

IT BEEN ASTONISHING.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY LISTENING

TO THIS, I HOPE WOULD SAY THAT

WAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A GREAT

THING.

THE KEY THING IS IT DIDN'T

HAPPEN BY ITSELF.

IT TOOK TENSION, EFFORT, THE

COURAGE OF MANY WOMEN ABSOLUTELY

TO PUSH ON THESE THINGS SO

WORKING INCREDIBLY HARD TO GET

MORE WOMEN INTO SCIENCE,

TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND MAT.

MOST SCIENTISTS IN THE U.S. ARE

WOMEN AND SIGNIFICANTLY

INCREASED THE NUMBER OF WOMEN

ENTERING THOSE PROFESSIONS.

NOW I THINK IT'S TIME TO LOOK

HOW BADLY MANY OF OUR BOYS ARE

DOING IN SUBJECTS LIKE ENGLISH

AND THINK ABOUT WHETHER WE MIGHT

NEED MORE MALE TEACHERS IN

ENGLISH.

ONE OF THE WAYS WE HELP GIRLS

AND WOMEN IS GETTING MORE

EDUCATORS IN THE SUBJECTS BUT

VERY FEW MEN TEACHING IN SCHOOLS

AND FEWER AND FEWER OVER TIME

AND TEACHING SUBJECTS BOYS ARE

STRUGGLING AT.

WE TAKE THE LESSONS OF THE

WOMEN'S MOVEMENT AND HOW WELL IT

DID BREAKING BARRIERS DOWN AND

APPLY TO BOYS AND MEN.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS HOW

MUCH IS IT INFLUENCED BY CLASS

AND RACE.

THEY WILL SAY HOW IS THIS

POSSIBLE IF YOUR KID IS GOING TO

A GOOD SCHOOL ALREADY AND IF

IT'S A PRIVATE SCHOOL AND YOU'RE

PAYING FOR IT, YOU MAY BE AFTER

-- AFFLUENT AND YOU MAY NOT SEE

THE AVERAGE MALE OR AVERAGE BOY

IN SCHOOL.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THIS POINT ABOUT IF WE LOOK

AROUND AT THE TOP AND NOT

LOOKING DOWN AND THE TRUTH IS

THAT THE GETTER GAP IN EDUCATION

AND MORE GENERALLY IN EDUCATION

AND EMPLOYMENT ARE MUCH, MUCH

SMALLER AT THE TOP AND IN

SOMEWAYS STILL THE OTHER WAY

AROUND.

WE MAY CHOOSE PROGRESS.

THE LAW REVIEW AT EVERY TOP LAW

SCHOOL IN THE U.S. TWO YEARS AGO

WAS EDITED BY A WOMAN.

IT WAS UNTHINKABLE BY RUTH BADER

GINSBURG.

YOU THINK WHAT THAT MEANS IS

AMAZING.

MAKING PROGRESS THERE BUT TRUE

AS YOU SUGGEST THIS GENDER GAP

GETS BIGGER FOR WORKING CLASS

KIDS AND FOR BLACK KIDS

FOR EXAMPLE, FOR EVERY TWO BLACK

WOMEN GETTING COLLEGE DEGREES,

ONLY ONE BLACK MAN.

IT'S BIGGER THAN OTHER RACES.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS, YOU

REALLY DO SEE MUCH BIGGER GENDER

GAPS.

THE QUESTION IS WHY THAT IS BUT

WHAT IT WORTH BECAUSE PARENTS

WITH THE MEANS, THE RESOURCES

ARE ACTUALLY INVESTING HEAVILY

IN THEIR SONS.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY HELPING THEM

THROUGH AN EDUCATION SYSTEM BUT

MAY NOT DO AS WELL AS THEIR

SISTERS BUT THEIR HELPING THEM

MORE.

I'VE RAISED THREE BOYS MYSELF.

I'M SURE MANY PEOPLE WILL

RESONATE WITH THIS.

ACTUALLY WHICH OF YOUR KIDS

NEEDS THE MOST HELP WITH THEIR

HOMEWORK, TURNING IT IN ON TIME

AND TUTORING?

IT'S VERY OF THEN THE BOYS.

UPPER MIDDLE CLASS PARENTS ARE

INVESTING IN BOYS SO THEY DON'T

FALL SO FAR BEHIND.

>> SO HOW DOES THIS TRANSLATE

WHEN IT COMES TO FINDING JOBS,

HOW THEY PERFORM IN THE LABOR

MARKET BECAUSE EVEN IF THERE IS

A BETTER PIPELINE TODAY OF WOMEN

THAT ARE PURSUING STEAM FIELDS,

GETTING MORE COLLEGE DEGREES, ET

CETERA, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY

SEEM TO STILL TRANSLATE INTO A

DOLLAR EARNED VERSUS A DOLLAR

EARNED WHETHER MAN OR WOMAN.

>> OVER TAKING THE EDUCATION

HAPPENED IN THE LAST TWO OR

THREE DECADES SO IT TAKING

AWHILE.

THE GENDER IS ESSENTIALLY

DISAGREED AMONG MEN AND WOMEN.

IT'S REALLY OUR PARENTING WHAT

HAPPENS IS WHEN WE HAVE KIDS,

MUCH MORE LIKELY TO TIME OUT OF

THE LABOR MARKET AND WORK PART

TIME AND FATHERS ARE NOT.

IT'S NO LONGER A PROBLEM OF

EMPLOYERS DISCRIMINATING.

THE OTHER THING THAT'S WORTH

SAYING IT USED TO BE TRUE THAT

MEN WERE MORE ABLE TO GET

DECENTLY PAID JOBS EVEN AT LOWER

LEVELS OF EDUCATION.

SO COME OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL AND

GET DESCENT MANUFACTURING JOBS.

BUT THOSE JOBS ARE INCREASINGLY

DISAPPEARING AND SO TO THE

EXTENT THERE USED TO BE A LABOR

MARKET WHERE EDUCATED MEN COULD

OUT PERFORM BETTER EDUCATED

WOMEN OVER TIME THAT'S BECOMING

LESS TRUE.

>> HOW DO YOU FIX THAT?

YOU TALK ABOUT THE LABOR MARKET

OF THE FUTURE, I DON'T SEE A

MANUFACTURING PLANT SAYING LET

PUT THE RBOTS AWAY AND PUT

HUNDREDS OF HUMANS BACK ON THE

LINE.

>> I CAN POINT YOU TO A NUMBER

OF POLITICIANS THAT WILL PROMISE

TO BRING BACK MANUFACTURING JOBS

INCLUDING EVERY PRESIDENT.

WE HAVE TO BRING BACK FACTORY

JOBS.

HONESTLY, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE

IRRESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE IT

SUGGESTS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS

WAIT FOR THIS MAGIC WANT AND

INSTEAD NEED TO HELP MEN ADAPT

AND TAKE NEW JOBS MORE ABOUT

SOFT SKILLS, RELATIONSHIPS THAT

REMAIN FEMALE DOMINATED.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AND

PRETENDING SO DOESN'T HELP

ANYBODY.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THIRD OF

YOUR BOOK OR SO THAT REALLY

DEALS WITH PRESCRIPTIONS AND

SOLUTIONS.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TOUCHED ON

BUT TRYING TO ENCOURAGE MORE

MALES TO BECOME TEACHERS.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> WELL, THE FIRST THING TO SAY

IS THE TEACHING PROFESSION USED

TO BE MUCH MORE GENDER EQUAL BUT

MORE AND MORE FEMALE DOMINATED

OVER TIME SO WHEREAS MANY

PROFESSIONS WERE MALE DOMINATED

LIKE LAW AND MEDICINE AND OTHERS

HAVE MUCH MORE EQUAL BUT LAW AND

MEDICINE ARE PRETTY MUCH GENLD R

PARODY.

TEACHING IS MORE AND MORE FEMALE

DOMINATED.

24% OF K 12 TEACHERS ARE MEN.

IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS IT ONE IN

TEN AND EARLY EDUCATION THERE

ARE ESSENTIALLY NO MEN.

THERE ARE FEWER MEN TEACHING

KINDERGARTEN THAN WOMEN FLYING

U.S. FIGHTER JETS.

I'M ALL FOR HAVING MORE PEOPLE

FLYING FIGHTER JETS.

IT'S GREAT.

I WANT THE BEST PEOPLE FLYING.

THERE IS NO DISCUSSION REALLY OF

A LACK OF MAN IN THE CLASSROOM.

WHY DOES IT MATTER?

IT SEEMS FOR REASONS TO BE

HONEST WE'RE NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR

HAVING MEN IN THE CLOSE ROOM

--

CLASSROOM DOES SEEM TO HELP BOYS

LEARN LIKE ENGLISH.

IT IS INTERESTING.

IT'S DIRECTLY MIRROR IMAGE THAN

WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT GIRLS.

GIRLS AND WOMEN DO BETTER IN

SUBJECTS LIKE STEM WITH A FEMALE

TEACHER.

MEN AND BOYS SEEM TO DO BET WE

ARE A MALE TEACHER IN SUBJECTS

LIKE ENGLISH.

>> BESIDES ENCOURAGING MORE MEN

TO TEACH, WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO?

>> AGAIN, SOMEWHAT SHOCKED TO

DISCOVER A LOT OF POLICY

INTERVENTIONS IN EDUCATION,

TRAINING AND SOME IN EMPLOYMENT

SEEM TO WORK PRETTY WELL FOR

WOMEN AND GIRLS BUT NOT VERY

WELL FOR MEN AND BOYS.

THE MOST DRAMATIC EXAMPLE WAS A

FREE COLLEGE PROGRAM IN CALE

--

KALAMAZOO.

WHAT THEY FOUND IN KALAMAZOO IS

ALL TUITION PAID FOR THOSE WHO

GRADUATE FROM THE SCHOOL AND

INCREASED WOMEN'S COLLEGE

COMPLETION BY 50% IS A HUGE I'M

PACK.

AND INCREASED MALE COLLEGE

COMPLETION BY ZERO.

SO NO IMPACT ON MEN AT ALL.

WHICH IS AN EXTRAORDINARY

FINDING AND NOT GETTING AS MUCH

ATTENTION AS I DESERVED AND A

BUNCH OF OTHERS A PROGRAM IN A

COMMUNITY, COLLEGE, SCHOOL

CHOICE PROGRAMS AND I THINK THE

MESSAGE HERE IS IF YOU HAVE A

GROUP WHO SEEMS TO BE HAVING

PARTICULAR STRUGGLES LIKE MEN

AND BOYS A GENDER NEUTRAL POLICY

WON'T HELP THEM.

IT WILL HELP THOSE WHO ARE

STRONG AND DOING WELL BUT WON'T

HELP THE ONES STRUGGLING MOST.

I THINK WE NEED SOME MORE MALE

SPECIFIC POLICIES IF YOU LIKE.

IT WOULDN'T BE RESTRICTED TO MEN

BUT VOCATIONAL TRAINING WHICH

DOES SEEM TO HELP BOYS AND MEN

ON AVERAGE MORE THAN GIRLS AND

WOMEN.

WE TALKED ABOUT MALE TEACHERS

AND WE SHOULD CONSIDER STARTING

BOYS EARLIER BECAUSE THEY'RE

DEVELOPMENTALLY BEHIND GIRLS

THROUGHOUT SCHOOL.

THIS RED SHIRTING TO HOLD THEM

BACK FOR A YEAR BUT ALL OF THOSE

WOULD BE A RECOGNITION OF THE

FACT THAT THERE ARE SOME

PROBLEMS IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM

THAT ARE SPECIFIC TO BOYS AND

MEN AND SO JUST A GENDER NEUTRAL

APPROACH WON'T NECESSARILY WORK.

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU SEEM TO BE

ASKING YOUR READERS TO DO IS I

GUESS AMERICA TO DO IS TO HOLD

TWO THOUGHTS AT THE SAME TIME.

THAT IT NOT A ZERO SUM GAME.

YOU CAN AGREE THERE IS MORE WORK

TO BE DONE TO GET WOMEN ON A

LEVEL PLAYING FIELD AND POINT

OUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MEN AND

BOYS.

IN THIS ERA WE'RE HAVING THE

CONSERVATION IN IS IS THE CENTER

OF SO MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF

CULTURE WARS.

YOU CAN'T HAVE TWO THOUGHTS THAT

CAN BE EQUAL WITHOUT BEING

LABELED A MISOGYNIST BECAUSE

I'VE SEEN THAT ON TWITTER OF

PEOPLE WHO READ THE BOOK AND SAY

I CAN'T BELIEVE HE'S SAYING

THIS.

I ASSUME YOU'RE GETTING CRITIQUE

FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM.

>> IF YOU DIG ON THE CULTURE WAR

AND MAKE IT ZERO SUM AND SAY TO

TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES OF BOYS

AND MEN REQUIRES YOU TO GIVE UP

YOUR COMMITMENT TO WOMEN'S

RIGHTS, IF WE FRAME IT THAT WAY,

THE PEOPLE WILL BE THE MOST

FRINGE FOLKS.

YOU CAN HOLD TWO THOUGHTS IN THE

HEAD AT THE SAME TIME.

ONE OF THE REASONS I READ THE

BOOK, I COULDN'T TELL YOU HOW

MANY VERY LIBERAL WOMEN WERE

REALLY WORRIED ABOUT BOYS AND

MEN IN PRIVATE BUT WORRIES ABOUT

SAYING ANYTHING IN PUBLIC

BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THAT WOULD

DIMINISH THE CREDENTIALS.

IT TURNS OUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T

SEE IT AND WANT SONS AND

DAUGHTERS TO FLOURISH AND HAVE

GREAT JOBS JUST AS THEY HAVE

GREAT JOBS AND DON'T SEE IT AS

ZERO SUM AND IT AN UNFORTUNATE

BYPRODUCT OF THE CULTURE WAR OF

SOME OF THE POLITICIANS ENGAGED

BECAUSE IT MAKES IT HARD TO HAVE

THIS CONVERSATION.

MOST PEOPLE I TALKED TO ARE

PERFECTLY CAPABLE.

IT NOT ONE OR THE OTHER.

IT'S BOTH.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "OF BOYS

AND MEN".