Ben Sasse

AND CAN’T BE SOLVED BY  POLITICS, BUT IT IS ACTUALLY LONELINESS.
FIRST, CAN YOU DEFINE FOR US WHAT YOU MEAN BY “LONELINESS?
.”
>> SEN. SASSE: SURE.
WE’RE SOCIAL ANIMALS. HUMANS ARE RELATIONAL BEINGS AND WE’RE MEANT TO DO STUFF TOGETHER.
WE’RE NOUNS, OBVIOUSLY, BUT ALSO AND VERBS AND ACTORS AND NEED TO DO THINGS.
WE NEED VOCATIONS.
WE NEED CALLINGS.
WE NEED WORK.
WE NEED PROJECTS, AND WE NEED COWORKERS WE NEED NEIGHBORS WE NEED FRIENDS WE NEED FAMILY.
AND THAT KIND OF TOCQUEVILLIAN, NEIGHBORLY LOCAL STUFF IS THE HEART OF WHO WE ARE.
BUT RIGHT NOW, THERE’S SO MUCH LOCAL COLLAPSE IN THOSE INSTITUTIONS, THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO POLITICS TO FILL THAT VOID.
AND I THINK THAT REALLY IS A FUNCTION OF LONELINESS.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: SO WHY ARE WE LONELY?
>> SEN. SASSE: WE’RE LONELY PARTLY — LARGELY BECAUSE OF THE DIGITAL REVOLUTION.
THE DIGITAL REVOLUTION IS A PRETTY FASCINATING TIME TO LIVE IN ECONOMIC HISTORY.
IN THE PAST, THERE WERE HUNTER-GATHERERS, THERE WERE AGRARIANS THEN THERE WERE INDUSTRIALISTS.

NOW, WE LIVE IN AN ECONOMY OF 1s, 0s, AND DIGITS AND BITS.  STUFF THAT REALLY ISN’T ROOTED IN PLACE,  AND HUMANS ARE MEANT TO BE ROOTED IN PLACE.
AND RIGHT NOW THIS DIGITAL REVOLUTION IS UNDERMINING PLACE

MARGARET HOOVER:IF LONELINESS, SORT OF IS OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM HOW DOES IT EXPRESS ITSELF?

>> SEN. SASSE: SO FIRST, JUST AT BASIC

 ONE-TO-ONE INTERPERSONAL LEVEL.
THERE’S DATA NOW AT THE NIH, FOR INSTANCE, THAT SHOWS THAT LONELINESS MAY BE OUR BIGGEST PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.
BEING LONELY FOR A DAY IS EQUIVALENT TO SMOKING 15 CIGARETTE THAT DAY.
WE NEED TO TACKLE THAT STUFF, BECAUSE ITS AN INDICATOR, A FLASHING RED LIGHT OF THINGS GOING WRONG.
WE HAVE OUR THIRD YEAR OF DECLINING LIFE EXPECTANCY IN THE US THIS  YEAR.
OPIOIDS, SUICIDES, A WHOLE BUNCH OF DEATHS OF DESPAIR.
SO ONE PIECE OF LONELINESS IS JUST THAT, IT’S SOCIAL ISOLATION.

BUT ANOTHER ASPECT OF LONELINESS IS YOU CAN HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE AROUND YOU, YOU CAN HAVE A LOT OF SOCIAL MEDIA FRIENDS, YOU CAN HAVE A LOT OF APPARENT RELATIONSHIPS THAT AREN’T ACTUALLY DEEP.
AND RIGHT NOW, THERE’S A THINNING OUT OF SHARED PROJECTS, SHARED WORK, LIFELONG COWORKERS, UH THICK COMMUNITY AROUND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY.
AND AS THAT STUFF HOLLOWS OUT, IT TURNS OUT HUMANS WITHER ON THE VINE.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: SO HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT TACKLING THOSE ISSUES YOU THAT YOU’VE SORT OF DIAGNOSED, YOUVE ANALYZED, YOU’VE STUDIED, 

WITHOUT GOVERNMENT?
>> SEN. SASSE: YEAH SO 

 I WROTE THIS BOOK “THEM” TO BE CONSTRUCTIVE AND TO RAISE A CONVERSATION AND HOPE HELP DRIVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE NEW HABITS OF ROOTEDNESS IN THE DIGITAL AGE.
AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE ABOUT GOVERNMENT.
STATISTICALLY, UM, IF YOU KNOW THE PERSON THAT LIVES TWO DOORS DOWN FROM YOU IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU’RE PRETTY LIKELY TO BE HAPPY.
IF YOU GO FROM 200, TO 500, TO 1000  SOCIAL MEDIA FRIENDS, UM, YOU DON’T GET ANY HAPPIER.
THAT’S KIND OF A BASIC TRUTH THAT SOCIAL SCIENCE IS SHOWING US RIGHT NOW.
BUT MOST AMERICANS HAVEN’T FIGURED OUT YET.

HOW DO WE INCORPORATE THAT INTO OUR LIVES, HOW DO WE CHANGE OUR HABITS, HOW DO WE BUILD ROOTEDNESS AGAIN?
>> MARGARET HOOVER: SO HOW DOES THE LONELINESS PROBLEM,IMPACT OUR POLITICS?
>> SEN. SASSE: SO I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE RIGHT NOW LOOKING TO POLITICAL TRIBES TO FIND MEANING.
WE’RE MEANT TO BE TRIBAL.
BUT YOUR TRIBE IS SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR FAMILY.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: THEY’RE FILLING A VOID OF LONELINESS?
>> SEN. SASSE: I THINK POLITICAL TRIBALISM IS RAMPING IN THIS MOVEMENT, ABSOLUTELY, AND ITS A BIG PROBLEM, BUT ITS A DOWNSTREAM PROBLEM FROM THE REAL PROBLEM.

POLITICAL TRIBE IS USUALLY, RIGHT NOW, ANTI-TRIBE.
WHAT AM I AGAINST? NOT WHAT AM I FOR?
AND WE GOT TO BE FOR STUFF.
BEFORE WE CAN SORT OUT OUT POLITICS BOTH FOR AND AGAINST.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: SO DO YOU THINK WE WAVED A WAND AND ABLE TO SOLVE THE LONELINESS PROBLEM, RIGHT, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, IT’S COMPLEX.
WOULD THAT FIX THE HYPER PARTISAN POLITICS?
>> SEN. SASSE: I THINK IT WOULD HAVE A HUGE POSITIVE EFFECT RIGHT.
BECAUSE YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO LOOK AT POLITICS AS A SECOND THIRD AND FOURTH ORDER IDENTITY, NOT A CORE IDENTITY.
I’M A DAD.

I’M A HUSBAND.
I’M NEBRASKAN.
I’M A FOOTBALL ADDICT.
I’M CHRISTIAN.
I’M A REPUBLICAN.

I’M A CONSERVATIVE.
I’M TEMPORARILY A PUBLIC OFFICIAL.
BUT WHEN I SORT OUT ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT IDENTIFIES, ALL THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE BUT THERES A WHOLE BUNCH OF WAYS TO GET THAT WRONG.
MY FOOTBALL ADDICTION, IN NEBRASKA ITS THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT RELIGION IS TO BE A FOOTBALL ADDICT.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: YOU’RE NOT DOING SO WELL THIS YEAR
>> SEN. SASSE: THAT WAS HARSH, MARGARET, WE’RE SUPPOSED TO BE FRIENDS.
NEBRASKA IS THE WINNINGEST TEAM OF THE LAST 50 YEARS WE’VE JUST HAD A BUMPY YEAR.

>> MARGARET HOOVER: 0-6 IS PRETTY BUMPY.
>> SEN. SASSE: VERY BUMPY. WE SHOULD DO A WHOLE NOTHER PROGRAM ON THAT.
BUT WE’LL RECOVER AND COACH FROST WILL LEAD US BACK TO THE PROMISED LAND. IF MY FOOTBALL ADDICTION DISPLACES MY OBLIGATIONS TO MY KIDS, MY WIFE SHOULD SMACK ME UPSIDE THE HEAD LIKE THERE’S FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG IF MY FOOTBALL ADDICTION TAKES PRIORITY OVER WHAT I OWE TO THE KIDS OR WHAT I OWE TO MY SPOUSE OR MY THEOLOGICAL COMMITMENTS.
RIGHT NOW, THAT’S WHAT’S HAPPENING IN OUR POLITICS I THINK.
BEING A REPUBLICAN OR A DEMOCRAT, OR BEING A PROGRESSIVE AND A CONSERVATIVE, THOSE POLICY FIGHTS ABSOLUTELY  MATTER.
I’VE SERVING FOR A SIX-YEAR TERM TO TRY AND LOVE MY NEIGHBOR THROUGH THIS FORM, BECAUSE I THINK POLITICS DO MATTER. BUT IF POLITICS ARE YOUR FIRST-ORDER LOVE, IF THEY’RE FIRST ORDER TRIBE, THERE’S SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU.
AND SO WHEN YOU SAY, FLASH AND WAVE THE MAGIC WAND AND SOLVE LONELINESS WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN IS GIVE PEOPLE MORE CONNECTIONS WHERE THEY ACTUALLY LIVE, OUR POLITICS WOULD GET A LOT BETTER FAST.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: OKAY.
SO HOW, THEN, DOES MEDIA PLAY INTO THIS?
BECAUSE I DON’T THINK SEAN HANNITY’S PROBLEM IS THAT HE IS LONELY.
>> SEN. SASSE: SO A LOT OF VIEWERS, 

CABLE ADDICTED VIEWERS, ARE VERY LONELY.
WE HAVE A LOT OF DATA ON THIS.
SO WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE WAY MORE AND MORE OF OUR MEDIA TRIBES DO FAN SERVICE FOR A VERY LONELY VIEWERSHIP.
OBVIOUSLY, LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE WATCHING CABLE NEWS AT DIFFERENT TIMES, BUT I THINK IT’S WORTH UNPACKING THE NUMBERS A LITTLE BIT.
UM, SO, FOX AND MSNBC THE MOST WATCHED POLITICAL PROGRAMMING IN AMERICA RIGHT NOW, THEY REALLY HAVE ABOUT 1% OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TUNED IN.
WELL, 50, 60, 70 YEARS AGO, MOST AMERICANS WATCHED THE SAME 

PROGRAMMING. THIS IS A TECHNOLOGICAL AND ECONOMIC AND A STRUCTURAL CHANGE. IT’S MORE THAN THAT, 93% OF HOUSEHOLDS RIGHT NOW HAVE ACCESS TO 500 OR MORE CHANNELS. AT ONE LEVEL GREAT, FOR MY FOOTBALL ADDICTION
I’M GLAD I CAN WATCH EVERY GAME I WANT.
BUT ACTUALLY THREE CHANNELS IN, IN THE 1950s MEANT AMERICANS HAD A LOT OF COMMON GRAMMAR.
“I LOVE LUCY” WAS WATCHED BY 68% OF AMERICAN HOUSEHOLDS IN THE MID 1950s. SO IF YOU AND I DIFFERED ON POLITICS, IF WE DIFFERED ON SPORTS LOYALTIES, IF WE GOT INTO A SPAT ABOUT SOMETHING AT WORK WE COULD STILL PIVOT BACK TO WHATEVER GOOFY THING DESI DID LAST NIGHT TO ANNOY LUCY. AND WE HAD THAT IN COMMON.
WE HAVE NONE OF THAT NOW.
AND SO OUR CABLE NEWS ADDICTIONS ARE OFTEN SPEAKING ONLY TO PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE EXACTLY WHAT WE BELIEVE.
WELL THEN WE CAN MISREPRESENT OUR OPPONENTS’ VIEWS.
>> MARGARET HOOVER:  YEAH BUT THEN IT ALSO PLAYS INTO THIS POLITICAL CYCLE, RIGHT? IF LONELINESS IS THE CAUSE AND PEOPLE ARE LONELY SO THEY’RE GOING TO POLITICS BECAUSE OF IT, HYPER PARTISAN MEDIA THAT’S DRUMMING THAT UP, THAT HAS AN EFFECT ON THE POLITICAL SYSTEM AS WELL.
WHICH I KNOW YOU PERSONALLY, HAVE CAUGHT THE BRUNT OF, VIA SEAN HANNITY.

>> SEN. SASSE: YEAH SO, I’M THE SECOND OR THIRD MOST CONSERVATIVE SENATOR BY VOTING RECORD.
I’M A DEEPLY CONSERVATIVE GUY AND I CAN MAKE THE ALL PHILOSOPHICAL AND PRAGMATIC ARGUMENTS FOR WHY I SHOULD BE. BUT IM NOT A VERY PARTISAN PERSON, I THINK BOTH OF THESE PARTIES ARE PRETTY LAME.
I DON’T THINK EITHER THE DEMOCRATIC OR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAVE A LONG-TERM VISION OF THE COUNTRY. AND I DON’T WANT TO SPEND A TON OF TIME ON SEAN HANNITY, BUT WHEREVER YOU TAKE THIS IS FINE.

HE ENDORSED ME IN THE PRIMARY. IM ONE OF 8 PEOPLE IN THE SENATE WHO’S NEVER BEEN A POLITICIAN BEFORE, SUBSEQUENTLY, HE’S MADE A PRETTY LOUD NOISE ABOUT  UN-ENDORSING ME TO CHANGE HIS VIEW.
AND IT IS REALLY BECAUSE I’VE HELD THE SAME POSITIONS OVER TIME AND PRESIDENT TRUMP DOESN’T HOLD ALL THE SAME POSITIONS I HOLD. I WORK WITH THE PRESIDENT ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES, BECAUSE I’M NOT RAH-RAH FOR THE PRESIDENT IT LED SEAN TO SAY HE COULDN’T BE ON THE SAME TEAM WITH ME EVEN THOUGH I HAVE THE SAME CONSERVATIVE POLICY BELIEFS I’VE ALWAYS HELD.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: I MEAN YOU’VE THOUGHT DEEPLY ABOUT THE  MOVEMENT CONSERVATISM, ABOUT THE IDEAS BEHIND MOVEMENT CONSERVATISM, ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES OF WHAT THE MODERN AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT WAS ABOUT, UM, WHICH IS WHAT HANNITY USED TO BE ABOUT AND WHAT MANY OF THE PUNDITS, I THINK, ON THE RIGHT, USED TO ESPOUSE.
HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR, REALLY THE SHIFT IN PRINCIPLE OR MAYBE THE LACK OF PRINCIPLE?
AND HOW HAS MEDIA PLAYED INTO THAT?
>> SEN. SASSE: WHAT I THINK HAS HAPPENED, IS PEOPLE BECOME LESS AND LESS COMMITTED TO A POLICY AND LEGISLATIVE PRINCIPLES AND MORE AND MORE COMMITTED TO PERSONALITIES.
AND THAT CLEARLY, THE PRESIDENT DIDN’T CAUSE THIS.
BUT THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN THE BEST AT PLAYING THE FIDDLE OF THIS. IN 2015 AND 2016 

HE RAN ONE OF THE MOST UNORTHODOX CAMPAIGNS EVER AND HE WON LOTS AND LOTS OF AMERICANS TO HIM, BECAUSE HE’S A GREAT MARKETER.
AND IT TURNS OUT A LOT OF THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA WORLD, THAT I THOUGHT WAS A LITTLE MORE DRIVEN BY POLICY COMMITMENTS ENDED UP BEING A LITTLE MORE DRIVEN BY BEING ANTI-DEMOCRAT.
AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS GREAT AT DOING ANTIDEMOCRAT.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: BUT IS THAT BECAUSE LONELINESS?
THAT’S A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM IN THE POLITICS WHAT YOU’VE JUST OUTLINED.
>> SEN. SASSE: IT IS A BIG PROBLEM IN OUR POLITICS,  

BUT I DO THINK IT IS BECAUSE OF LONELINESS.
POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS MATTER BUT WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS VOLUNTEERISM LOVE, NEIGHBORLINESS, PERSUASION,
MOST OF THE INSTITUTIONS THAT SHOULD MATTER SHOULDN’T BE POLITICAL 

INSTITUTIONS.
WHEN THEY’RE HOLLOW, POLITICS FILLS THE VOID.

MARGARET HOOVER: SO YOU DIDN’T THE ENTIRE FIRST YEAR IN THE SENATE, 

YOU WERE CONSCIENTIOUSLY CHOOSING TO OBSERVE WHAT WAS HAPPENING.
WHEN YOU FINALLY WENT DOWN TO THE WELL OF THE SENATE, YOU HAD, A LOT OF OBSERVATIONS AND A LOT TO SAY.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN?

>> SEN. SASSE: I’M A HISTORIAN BY TRAINING AS YOU SAID, BY THE INTRODUCTION.
THE SENATES BEEN AROUND 230 YEARS.
IT’S A VERY IMPORTANT INSTITUTION OVER THE COURSE OF 230 YEARS.
IT IS NOT A VERY IMPORTANT INSTITUTION RIGHT NOW.
AND I DIDN’T WANT TO ARRIVE AS A NEWBIE, AND ANNOUNCE WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE U.S. SENATE? BECAUSE I DIDN’T EXACTLY KNOW BUT I WANTED TO SORT IT OUT. SO I INTERVIEWED TWO-THIRDS OF ALL SENATORS IN PRIVATE, IN THE COURSE OF THE FIRST YEAR, I WAS IN THE INSTITUTION. IT’S AN OLD TRADITION. NOT JUST SOME RANDOM THING I DID, UH FOR DECADES AND DECADES IN THE SENATE PEOPLE DIDN’T SPEAK THE FIRST YEAR.
AND FRANKLY, I THINK THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHAT SENATORS SAY ISN’T WORTH SPEAKING, IT IS NOT THAT INTERESTING.
SO IT WASN’T LIKE THERE WAS SOME GIANT SACRIFICE TO LEARN THE INSTITUTION FOR 11 OVER 12 MONTHS BEFORE YOU SPOKE.

; BUT WHY IS THE SENATE SO UNIMPORTANT RIGHT NOW?
WE STILL BRAND OURSELVES THE GREATEST DELIBERATIVE BODY IN THE WORLD. IT’S NOT TRUE. I LIVE IN A 25,000 PERSON FARM TOWN, THERE ARE A DOZEN NOT FOR PROFITS IN MY LITTLE FARM TOWN THAT HAVE BOARDS TO DELIBERATE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN THE U.S. SENATE.
BECAUSE PEOPLE ARGUE BUT THEY LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.
YOU TRY TO PUT THE BEST CONSTRUCTION ON THE OPPONENT’S ARGUMENT.
WHY DOES THE SENATE NOT DO THAT?
MOSTLY BECAUSE CABLE T.V. NEWS HAS SWALLOWED THIS SENATE WHOLE.
THE SENATE IS EMPTY, ALMOST EVERY DAY. WHEN SENATORS ARE MAKING THESE LONG-WINDED SPEECHES, SOMETIMES GETTING REAL EMOTIONAL AND PONTIFICATING OR WHATEVER,
THERE’S NO ONE IN THE ROOM.
THE C-SPAN CAMERA ANGLE, THOUGH, DOESNT SHOW THAT.
AND SO THEY’RE DOING IT FOR T.V. CLIPS LATER.
THAT’S BECAUSE WE’RE NOT ACTUALLY A GROUP OF 100 PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO BUILD RELATIONSHIPS AND SOLVE PROBLEMS, AS DELEGATES, WHO GO OFF TO WASHINGTON FOR A  TIME, BUT PLAN TO GO BACK HOME TO WHERE YOU’RE FROM. MOST PEOPLE ARE MOVING — MOST OF OUR CURRENT POLITICIANS ARE MOVING TO D.C. 

AND THEY NEVER PLAN TO GO HOME.
THEY WANT TO BECOME LOBBYISTS OR PUNDITS WHEN THEY LEAVE THE INSTITUTION AND SO THEY’RE TRYING TO RALLY A BASE OF 1% OR 3% IN A REALLY INTENSE WAY, NOT FIND 70% SOLUTIONS.
ITS… IT IS NOT HEALTHY FOR THE FUTURE OF THE REPUBLIC.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: IN A PREVIOUS LIFE YOU WORKED FOR MCKINSEY & COMPANY AND TURN AROUND AND MITCH McCONNELL HIRED YOU AND SAID SENATOR SASSE, PLEASE, OBSERVE WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE SENATE AND THEN FIX IT.
HOW WOULD YOU FIX IT?
>> SEN. SASSE: SO, CAMERAS ARE A BIG, BIG PROBLEM.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: WOULD YOU ARGUE AGAINST TRANSPARENCY?
>> SEN. SASSE: NO I WANT MORE TRANSPARENCY, I WANT MORE PEN AND PAD, WE SHOULD HAVE MORE AUDIO RECORDING.
BUT THE GRANDSTANDING FOR THE CAMERAS ACTUALLY CHANGES THE INSTITUTION.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: SO HOW DO YOU FIX THAT.
>> SEN. SASSE: WE SHOULD HAVE A LOT MORE COMMITTEES WITHOUT CAMERAS. NATIONAL SECURITY WORKS BETTER IN THE CONGRESS THAN DOMESTIC POLICY, WHY? BECAUSE WE END UP IN A CLASSIFIED SKIFF A LOT OF THE TIME, AND IN THOSE PLACES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD BE STUNNED AT THE WAY PEOPLE TREAT EACH OTHER WITH RESPECT.
WE SHOULD ALSO TRY TO DO A LOT FEWER THINGS IN THE SENATE.
WE SHOULD SET THREE TO FIVE BIG PRIORITIES OF WHAT TO DO FOR 24 MONTHS AND WE SHOULD ONLY DO THOSE THINGS 

AND WE SHOULD SETUP COMMITTEES IN RESPONSE TO OUR PRIORITIES FOR THE TWO YEARS, NOT HAVE ALL OF THESE POWERS AND THE STANDING COMMITTEES THAT ARE MOSTLY JUST PLACES FOR PEOPLE TO GRAND STAND FOR SOUND BYTES.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: ALRIGHT SO YOU’RE NOT THE ONLY OR EVEN THE FIRST SENATOR TO COME ON THE PROGRAM AND SAY THERE’S PROBLEMS WITH THE SENATE.
>> SEN. SASSE: OKAY.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: AS YOU KNOW, WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY JR THE ORIGINAL HOST OF “FIRING LINE,” AND WE HAVE A REPOSITORY OF ALL OF HIS BEST MOMENTS.
HERE’S ONE, THE ARGUMENT OF WHICH YOU MAY RECOGNIZE, TAKE A LOOK.
Hatfield: I would like to eventually see the country evolve toward a parliamentary system where we can throw the president out of the United States when we can proof a vote of confidence or lack of confidence. I think there’s something superior to the four year term where we elected him in 1964 and are stuck with him until 1968.

Mr. Buckley: And would you like to see the abolition of the Senate on the grounds that

it misrepresents the one-man, one-vote principle?

Hatfield: Oh- I think the Senate, after all, is the bastion of maintaining the great American Republic (laughter). We have to take the Senate as it is.

Buckley: i think you’re pulling my leg (laughter)

Hatfield: let’s say eventually let’s evolve where it can be improved into something better than what it is now – a given six year term where people do not

 feel perhaps on every instance

a continuing responsibility to the electorate.

SEN. SASSE: WOW. UH LOTS OF MEAT AND LOTS TO ARGUE WITH THERE.

MARGARET HOOVER:WELL, LOTS OF MEAT AND LOTS TO ARGUE WITH. BUT I GOT TO ASK YOU, IN 2014, YOU RAN.
YOU HAD BEEN A SENATE CONFIRMED APPOINTEE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.
YOU RAN IN 2014 LARGELY ON A PLATFORM ABOUT REPEALING THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.
YOU GOT TO THE SENATE, REPUBLICANS HAD, AFTER TRUMP WON THE ELECTION, THE SENATE, THE HOUSE, AND THE WHITE HOUSE.
FINALLY, THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY

 TO DELIVER ON A PROMISE THAT REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES HAD PROMISED THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

SEN. SASSE: YEAH.

MARGARET HOOVER:FOR YEARS. THAT WAS A BIG THING.
AND YOU ARGUE WE SHOULD DO BIG THINGS.
WHY WASN’T THE SENATE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING BIG?

SEN. SASSE: YEAH.
CAUSE, IT TURNS OUT, LOTS AND LOTS OF REPUBLICANS WANTED TO BE AGAINST OBAMACARE BUT NOT ACTUALLY BE FOR A SYSTEM OF FREE MARKET HEALTH CARE AND SO WHEN YOU HAD TO ACTUALLY ACT, THERE WERE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T WANT TO DO IT.

MARGARET HOOVER: WHY DIDN’T YOU 

TAKE THE LEAD IN WRITING THE REPEAL BILL?

SEN. SASSE: SO, WHEN YOU’RE A FRESHMAN AND YOU’RE NOT ON A COMMITTEE OF JURISDICTION, UH, YOU DON’T HAVE THE LEVERAGE TO GET THAT DONE.

MARGARET HOOVER: BUT YOU’RE LIKE, YOU’RE THOUGHTFUL, AND INDEPENDENT, AND YOU SORT OF DO YOUR OWN THING IN A WAY.
THIS IS ONE OF THE — THE CRITIQUES, I THINK, SO MANY PEOPLE ARE INSPIRED BY YOUR RHETORIC AND INSPIRED BY WHAT YOU SAY AND THEN HOPE THAT YOU CAN FILL A LEADERSHIP VOID.

SEN. SASSE: YEAH. SO I THINK THAT, BACK TO YOUR HATFIELD QUOTE, UH, WHEN HE WANTED TO GO SHORTER TERM WHEN WE NEED TO GO LONGER TERM, THE SENATE IS SO IMMEDIATELY ACCOUNTABLE 

TO DEMOCRATIC POPULIST IMPULSE EVERY MINUTE. I THINK THAT THERE’S A — HE — HE WANTED TO ABOLISH THE SENATE. HE WOULDN’T ADMIT IT, RIGHT? BUT HE WANTED THE WHOLE SYSTEM TO BE SWALLOWED BY A — A MAJORITARIAN CONGRESS. I ACTUALLY THINK THE PROBLEM WITH THE SENATE IS THERE’S NOT ENOUGH SUPER MAJORITARIAN INSTINCT IN THE PLACE THAT YOU WANT TO DO 70% SOLUTIONS THAT MAY TAKE A BUNCH OF YEARS TO WORK OUT.

MARGARET HOOVER: YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW THIS SENATE NEEDS TO TALK TO EACH OTHER MORE. YOU GUYS NEED TO TALK TO EACH OTHER IN ORDER TO 

TRANSCEND THE POLARIZATION AND THE PARTISANSHIP.
WE HAVE JUST GONE THROUGH, AS A COUNTRY, PROBABLY, THE MOST HISTORICALLY CONTENTIOUS AND HYPER PARTISAN SUPREME COURT CONFIRMATION PROCESS THAT ANYBODY HAS EVER SEEN CERTAINLY IN THE MODERN ERA. YOU SAT ON THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHAT DID YOU DO TO HELP TRANSCEND OR MODEL THAT TALKING TO EACH OTHER?

SEN. SASSE: SO, LET’S START BY ADMITTING THAT THE SENATE HAD A VERY LOW MOMENT.
IT WAS AN UGLY TIME.
AND THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE DID A BAD JOB.
SO THE — THE FORD FAMILY WASN’T WELL-SERVED.
THE KAVANAUGH FAMILY NOT WELL-SERVED.
YOUR — YOUR AND MY KIDS WEREN’T WELL-SERVED.
UH CIVIC INSTITUTIONS HAD DECLINING TRUST IN THIS MOMENT.
I THINK THAT THE SENATE IS NOT PREPARED TO HANDLE THE VERY IMPORTANT #MeTOO MOVEMENT.
UH BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I DID WAS WHEN DR. FORD CAME FORWARD WITH HER ALLEGATIONS, UM, I WENT TO THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE AND TO OUR LEADERSHIP — 

AND I THINK WE WERE DUE TO VOTE IN THREE DAYS AT THAT POINT — AND I SAID, WE CAN’T POSSIBLY VOTE IN THREE DAYS.
WE HAVE TO HAVE A CHANCE FOR THIS WOMAN TO BE HEARD.
WE ULTIMATELY WENT FROM SIX FBI INVESTIGATIONS TO A  SEVENTH, THE FBI ENDED UP INTERVIEWING, I THINK, 146 PEOPLE, UH, IN THE COURSE OF THE PROCESS. SO ONE OF THE THINGS I WANTED TO DO WAS SLOW THAT DOWN A LITTLE BIT SO — SO WE SHOULD DELIBERATE.

MARGARET HOOVER:  WHAT ABOUT TALKING TO YOUR — YOUR FELLOW DEMOCRATS?
RIGHT?
I MEAN, THERE WAS JUST THIS MOMENT, WE ALL WATCHED IT ON TELEVISION, RIGHT? YOU TALK ABOUT THE REALITY T.V., WHERE IT — IT JUST — IT FELT LIKE YOU GUYS WEREN’T TALKING TO EACH OTHER.
DID YOU HAVE ANY PRIVATE MOMENTS WHERE YOU — YOU TRIED TO SORT OF REACH ACROSS THE AISLE OR — OR WORK WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES TO DE-ESCALATE?

BEN SASSE: HERE’S THE POINT ON DEMOCRATS. I TALKED TO A NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS IN PRIVATE, AND THERE’S A HEALTHY HANDFUL OF  DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE THAT ARE REALLY ANGRY WITH THEIR OWN COLLEAGUES ABOUT HOW THEY HANDLED THAT. AND I WISH WE COULD TURN OFF THE KLIEG LIGHTS A LITTLE BIT MORE OFTEN.
BECAUSE SOME OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS WHERE DEMOCRATS WERE AGREEING WITH ME ABOUT THE WAY OTHER  DEMOCRATS HAD ACTED.
IF WE’D’VE BEEN IN A ROOM

OF SIX OR EIGHT OF US, I THINK PEOPLE WOULD HAVE EXCHANGED SOME PRETTY HARSH WORDS AND HUGGED PARTS OF IT OUT.
INSTEAD, SINCE ALL DONE ON T.V., THOSE CONVERSATIONS BECAME SIMPLY TRIBAL.
THIS IS SORT OF WHAT “THEM” IS ABOUT.
THAT THERE’S AN UNHEALTHY GROUP OF PEOPLE IN OUR — IN WASHINGTON, D.C. IN OUR POLITICAL CLASS WHO AREN’T ROOTED ANYMORE. THEY DON’T THINK THEY REPRESENT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE ROOTED.
THEY WANT TO SCREAM A LOT.
THAT’S NOT GOING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, EITHER POLITICAL OR, EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, CIVIL SOCIETY.

>> MARGARET HOOVER: YOU’VE DESCRIBED YOURSELF AS SOMEONE WHO ISN’T SURE

 IF YOU’RE A REPUBLICAN ANYMORE.
EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, OVERWHELMINGLY, YOU VOTE WITH A REPUBLICAN AGENDA, WHY DO YOU FEEL SO ALIENATED FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

>> SEN. SASSE: I AM THE SECOND OR THIRD MOST CONSERVATIVE VOTER IN THE SENATE AND I’VE BEEN A CONSERVATIVE LONG BEFORE DONALD TRUMP AND I’LL BE A CONSERVATIVE LONG AFTER DONALD TRUMP IS PRESIDENT.

UM, AND SO I HAVE POLICY COMMITMENTS AND REGULARLY THE PRESIDENT HAVE COME TO EMBRACE MY STATED POLICY VIEWS.
AND SO THE THINGS WE VOTE ON IN THE SENATE, THE PRESIDENT AND I END UP HAVING THE SAME POSITION ON LEGISLATION A LOT.
BUT THE PARTY SEEMS LESS ABOUT A LONG-TERM VISION FOR THE COUNTRY AND MORE ABOUT THE SHORT-TERM OF WHICH PERSON WE’RE FOR, AND WHICH PEOPLE WE’RE AGAINST, RATHER THAN WHICH POLICIES WE NEED TO BE DEBATING. AND IM HAPPY TO BE APART OF THE PARTY OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, BUT I WANT THE PARTY OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN TO CAPTURE SOME OF THAT HISTORY TO THRUST US FORWARD INTO A TEN AND TWENTY FIVE YEAR VISION OF HOW WE SOLVE PROBLEMS.

>> MARGARET HOOVER:  SO A LOT OF CRITIQUE IS –FOR YOU IS ABOUT HOW THE SENATE ISN’T FUNCTIONING PROPERLY. 

 YOU’VE CALLED YOURSELF AN INDEPENDENT CONSERVATIVE THAT CAUCUSES WITH THE REPUBLICANS.
AND THERE IS THIS PATH THAT IS BEING CONSIDERED, UM, THAT IF THERE WERE MAYBE FIVE OR SIX, MAYBE EVEN FOUR, INDEPENDENTS IN THE 

SENATE, MAYBE NOT INDEPENDENTS, INDIVIDUALS WHO CAUCUS TOGETHER, APART FROM THE REPUBLICAN-DEMOCRAT PARTY, THERE WOULD BE A WAY TO WREST POWER, BOTH FROM THE REPUBLICANS AND THE DEMOCRATS AND TO–TO TAKE THE BALANCE OF POWER BACK IN ORDER TO SORT OF NAVIGATE A PATH THAT COULD BE MORE FUNCTIONAL.

>> SEN. SASSE: I THINK THAT

 KIND OF IDEA, FIRST OF ALL, IT APPEALS TO ME IN LOTS OF WAYS.
BUT I THINK THAT KIND OF IDEA WOULD REQUIRE SOME DEMOCRATS, UH, TO ALSO BE INTERESTED IN SOME  LONG-TERM DEBATES.
AND IN 

 I THINK YOU SEE SOME OF THAT.
I THINK IN THE NEWS OF THE DAY, PEOPLE ARE TALKING A LOT ABOUT THE U.S. ROLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
AND YOU SEE SOME ASSERTION OF TRADITIONAL SENATE VIEW OF THE LONG-TERM IN FOREIGN POLICY.
AND SO I HAVE SOME HOPES IN THE FOREIGN POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY SPACE.
I DON’T REALLY SEE MUCH OF THAT MOVEMENT IN DOMESTIC

  POLICY RIGHT NOW.
BUT I WOULD BE HOPEFUL IF WE COULD FIND THOSE PARTIES 

>> MARGARET HOOVER: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ELEVATED YOU AND REALLY SET YOU APART FROM THE COLLEAGUES AS A FRESHMAN SENATOR IS THAT YOU TOOK A REALLY

 STRONG STAND AGAINST NOT — CANDIDATE TRUMP IN 2016, HOW HAS YOUR CRITIQUE CHANGED OF PRESIDENT TRUMP TWO YEARS IN NOW HE IS THE PRESIDENT AND HE HAS A RECORD OF TWO YEARS?

>> SEN. SASSE: SO I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS DONE SOME THINGS VERY WELL AND SOME THINGS THAT I’M CRITICAL OF.
BUT ONE OF THE THINGS HE’S DONE VERY WELL IS BUILT A VERY STRONG TEAM IN A NUMBER OF DOMAINS.
AND SO ON 

NATIONAL SECURITY, FOR INSTANCE, UM THERE ARE PLACES WHERE HE MIGHT FREELANCE ON TWITTER OR AT RALLIES, AND I THINK THAT MY CONSTITUENTS HAVE COME TO REALIZE, MAYBE THEY REALIZED IT BEFORE I DID, THAT SOMETIMES THE RHETORIC HE’S USING–MIGHT BE KIND OF 

LIKE A GUY IN A BAR, NOT REALLY ALL THE POLICY THINGS THAT ARE GONNA FLOW FROM IT. AND SO SOME OF THE GOVERNING OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION REALLY DOES HAVE A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE

 IN POLICY AND THE WAYS THAT WE MIGHT TALK ABOUT IT IN THE SHORT-TERM ON CABLE.
I’M NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT.
NOT BECAUSE OF TONE OR DEMEANOR SO MUCH AS BECAUSE THE THINGS I CARE ABOUT IN POLITICS ARE GENERATIONAL.
AND SO I’M–I’M ANXIOUS ABOUT THE WAY THE PRESIDENT PICKS AT THE SCABS OF INTERNAL DIVISION IN AMERICA.
BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF THEM.

UM BUT AT A GOVERNING LEVEL, A BUNCH OF THE DAY-TO-DAY DECISIONS, I THINK, ARE A GOOD BIT CALMER THAN MANY OF US THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE.

>> MARGARET HOOVER: HOW ABOUT HIS CHARACTER?

>> SEN. SASSE: IVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING WITH THE PRESIDENT. WHEN YOU SIT LIKE THIS WITH DONALD TRUMP, HE ENGAGES YOU.

 HE’S NOT DISTRACTED.
UM, THAT’S GREAT AT ONE LEVEL.
IT’S ALSO REALLY DANGEROUS IF WE DON’T HAVE A HISTORY AND FUTURE IN MIND.
AND LANGUAGE AND OATHS AND WORDS AND BONDS AND PLEDGES AND PROMISES FROM THE PAST AND THE FUTURE– THEY’RE REALLY IMPORTANT IN A REPUBLIC. AND THE PRESIDENT HAS A VERY DIFFERENT VIEW OF RHETORIC.

HE LIKES TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT HE’S IN AND FEEL UNCONSTRAINED BY THE PAST AND THE FUTURE.

>> MARGARET HOOVER: BUT I ASKED YOU ABOUT HIS CHARACTER.

>> SEN. SASSE: I THINK BELIEVING THAT YOUR WORDS MATTER

 IS ONE OF THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL THINGS ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER.

>> MARGARET HOOVER: AND YOU’VE TAKE A STANCE AGAINST ON HOW HE’S BEHAVED TOO. ON TWITTER, YOU’VE SAID–YOU’VE INDICATED THAT THE WAY HE’S BEHAVING WAS UNDERNEATH THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY. IT’S CLEAR, I MEAN YOU ARE A GROUNDED, RELIGIOUS, HOMESPUN, MIDWESTERN

 GUY WHO CLEARLY HAS PROBLEMS WITH THE CHARACTER THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS DISPLAYED. SO HOW DO YOU BALANCE PRIORITIZING THE POLICY OUTCOMES VERSUS THE CHARACTER

 OF THE LEADER IN OFFICE.

>>SEN. SASSE: SO I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE MADE THEIR CHOICE, AND THEY ELECTED THIS GUY FOR THESE FOUR YEARS, AND IN THE SAME WAY WHEN I GOT INTO THE SENATE IN 2014, PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD TWO YEARS LEFT IN HIS EIGHT YEARS, AND
YOU DEAL WITH THE PRESIDENT YOU HAVE. BECAUSE
IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM, THE LEGISLATURE IS 

SUPPOSED TO WRESTLE WITH THE LONG-TERM, ISSUES. AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, ARTICLE II, THE PRESIDENT KINDA SPEAKS FOR THE NATION, IN A WAY..
BUT HIS MAIN THE DAY-TO-DAY JOB IS ADMINISTRATING ARTICLE II.

AND I THINK, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ADMINISTERING ARTICLE II AND BUILDING A GOOD TEAM TO DO THAT.
BUT HE HAS A DIFFERENT SENSE OF HIS RHETORICAL OBLIGATIONS AS PRESIDENT.
I DON’T THINK IT’S A REALLY HEALTHY MODEL FOR THE LONG-TERM.
BUT THIS IS THE GUY I HAVE NOW AND I WANT TO WORK WITH HIM WHEREVER CAN.

>> MARGARET HOOVER: THIS IS MY FINAL QUESTION BECAUSE YOU’RE A U.S. SENATOR, BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF POWER TO INFLUENCE POLICY.
I MEAN ONE OF ONLY 100 PEOPLE IN THIS POSITION, YOU’VE DIAGNOSED A PROBLEM, IS THERE ONE THING THAT YOU CAN DO FROM THE SENATE?
>> SEN. SASSE: YEAH.
>> MARGARET HOOVER: TO HELP FIX IT?
>> SEN. SASSE: YEAH

 I THINK WE NEED TO DO MASSIVE ETHICS REFORM.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE CAN DO, I’VE INTRODUCED I THINK FIVE PIECES OF LEGISLATION ON THIS IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS, UM, IT’S GOING TO BUNDLED AS WELL, BUT THERE’S SOME STAND ALONE PIECES OF LEGISLATION.

WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DON’T TRUST THE POLITICAL CLASS AND LOTS REASONS THEY DON’T ARE LEGITIMATE.
AND SHOULD TRY TO REFILL THOSE RESERVOIRS OF TRUST; WE SHOULD END THE REVOLVING DOOR OF PEOPLE IN CONGRESS GOING DOWNTOWN TO LOBBY WHEN THEY LEAVE OFFICE.
THEY SHOULD GO BACK TO WHERE THEY’RE FROM.
UM, I BELIEVE IN EVERYBODY’S 1st AMENDMENT RIGHTS, TO PROTEST,

 AND SPEECH, AND RE-ADJUST THEIR GRIEVANCES, SO YOU CAN LOBBY ALL YOU WANT–YOU SHOULDN’T BE A FORMER LAWMAKER WHO GETS PAID TO LOBBY.
WE SHOULD END ANY AMBIGUITY ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES NEED TO DISCLOSE THEIR TAX RETURNS.

WE SHOULD END THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN BE A FOREIGN POLICY CABINET OFFICIAL, SECRETARY OF STATE, OR SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, OR US TRADE REP, AND HAVE YOUR SPOUSE GO RAISE MONEY FROM FOREIGN ENTITIES WHERE YOU’RE MAKING PUBLIC TRUST DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
THERE SHOULD BE NO AMBIGUITY ABOUT WHETHER TAXPAYERS ARE GONNA PAY FOR SETTLEMENTS, UH, FOR SEXUAL HARASSMENT 

OR ASSAULT ALLEGATIONS IN CONGRESS.
THERE SHOULD BE NO INSIDER TRADING.
THERE’S A LOT OF GRAY LOOPHOLES.
SO, I WANT TO DO A LOT OF ETHICS REFORM SO THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT WASHINGTON AND SAY, HMM I DON’T REALLY TRUST 

OR LIKE THOSE PEOPLE, BUT I’M LESS SURE THEY’RE GETTING RICH ON MY DIME.

>> MARGARET HOOVER: SENATOR SASSE, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO “FIRING LINE.”
GOOD LUCK ON YOUR BOOK.

>> SEN. SASSE: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.