Christine Lagarde

AND MARKETS RESPOND.  MADAME CHRISTINE LAGARDE, MANAGING DIRECTOR OF THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND, LIVES AND WORKS AT THE INTERSECTION OF THESE EARTH SHATTERING TRENDS.

WITH 189 MEMBER COUNTRIES UNDER HER LEADERSHIP, THE IMF PROVIDES POLICY ADVICE AND FINANCING TO COUNTRIES IN ECONOMIC CRISIS, AND WORKS WITH DEVELOPING NATIONS TO ACHIEVE MACROECONOMIC STABILITY AND REDUCE POVERTY.  AMONG HER CHARGES AND PASSIONS IS HELPING TO CLOSE THE GENDER GAP IN FINANCE AND IN WORK, WHILE CONFRONTING 

THE EMERGING CHALLENGES OF AUTOMATION THAT RISKS IMPERILING WOMEN MOST.  MADAME LAGARDE, WELCOME TO FIRING LINE.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: THANK YOU SO MUCH. 

MARGARET HOOVER: FOR THOSE WHO ARE LESS FAMILIAR WITH THE WORK OF THE IMF, CAN YOU ESTABLISH FOR OUR AUDIENCE WHAT THE IMF IS AND WHAT IT DOES?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: A TEENY TINY BIT OF HISTORY: BACK IN 1944, LEADERS OF THE WORLD, LED IN PARTICULAR BY THE UNITED STATES, DECIDED THAT IT WAS NOT WORTH HAVING A THIRD WORLD WAR. AND DECIDED THAT INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL STABILITY WAS KEY IN ORDER TO AVOID THAT.  AND THAT DEVELOPMENT WAS A DETERMINING FACTOR.  SO THEY ESTABLISHED TWO INSTITUTIONS, CALLED THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND, AND THE WORLD BANK.  THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND HAS THREE BUSINESS LINES – THE FIRST ONE IS TO AUDIT ECONOMIES AROUND THE WORLD, AND TO ALERT POLICY MAKERS WHEN THERE IS A RISK ON THE HORIZON THAT THEY DON’T SEE. THE SECOND IS TO, AS YOU SAID, PROVIDE FINANCING FOR COUNTRIES THAT HAVE A BALANCE OF PAYMENT CRISIS, THEY CAN’T PAY THEIR DEBT. AND, UH, YOU KNOW, WE PROVIDE FINANCING, AND TO DO THAT, WE SAY FINE, BUT YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO RESTORE YOUR PUBLIC FINANCE MANAGEMENT, YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO IMPROVE YOUR SITUATION, YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO REFORMS, IN ORDER TO REGAIN YOUR SOVEREIGNTY AND NOT NEED THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND ANYMORE.  AND THE THIRD LINE OF BUSINESS IS TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE, AND WE HELP WITH ANTI MONEY LAUNDERING, WITH COMBATING THE FINANCING OF TERRORISM, WITH 

HELPING COUNTRIES RUN THEIR DEBT MANAGEMENT, DESIGNING THEIR TAX SYSTEM, AND SO ON AND SO FORTH .

MARGARET HOOVER: SO THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND PLAYED A CRITICAL ROLE IN THE TIME AFTER THE 2008 FINANCIAL CRISIS.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YEAH.

MARGARET HOOVER: BUT YOU DID HAVE THIS WONDERFUL QUOTE ABOUT THE FINANCIAL CRISIS. AND IF LEHMAN BROTHERS HAD BEEN LEHMAN SISTERS THE HISTORY WOULD’VE BEEN A BIT DIFFERENT. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YOU KNOW IT MAY HAVE BEEN  INFLUENCED BY THE FACT THAT I WAS THE ONLY FEMALE FINANCE MINISTER  IN THE ROOM. AND SEEING THOSE ROOMS  FULL OF MEN TRYING VERY 

HARD TO SOLVE ISSUES, MADE ME THINK THAT, IF IT WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE DIVERSE, IF IT WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE MIXED COMPOSITION MAYBE WE WOULD REACH DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS.  AND I THINK THIS IS VERY TRUE IN THE FINANCIAL WORLD, WHEN YOU LOOKED IN THOSE DAYS AT THE BANKING SECTOR TRADING FLOORS,  IT WAS VASTLY DOMINATED BY MEN.
AND NOTHING AGAINST THEM.
DON’T GET ME WRONG .

  I THINK WOMEN BRING DIFFERENT SKILLS, DIFFERENT — A DIFFERENT APPROACH, AND DIVERSITY

 IN AND OF ITSELF, 

BECAUSE IT CHA — IT CHALLENGES THE WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE THINK IS ACTUALLY VALUABLE AT A TIME WHEN YOU HAVE TO EVALUATE RISKS AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS.
THAT’S WHY I SAID– THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENT STORY IF THERE HAD BEEN MORE SISTERS THAN  BROTHERS.

MARGARET HOOVER:  SO NOT SO MUCH THAT WOMEN ARE BETTER AT  RUNNING FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, BUT THAT THE DIVERSITY THAT WOMEN BRING TO THE TABLE PREVENTS THE GROUP THINK?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: CORRECT.
THAT’S ABSOLUTELY THE CASE.
AND AND WE’VE JUST COMPLETED A STUDY ON THAT FRONT, WHICH CLEARLY SHOWS THAT WHEN THERE IS DIVERSITY, AND WHEN THERE ARE WOMEN IN BOARD, IN EXECUTIVE TEAMS, THEN, THE UM THE STABILITY  OF THESE INSTITUTIONS IS BETTER.

MARGARET HOOVER:  IS IT — IS IT JUST THAT THEIR DIVERSITY PREVENTS THE GROUP THINK OR IS THERE SOMETHING INHERENTLY DIFFERENT ABOUT THE WOMEN — THE WAY WOMEN APPROACH FINANCE THAT IN ITS DIFFERENCE, MAKES THEM HAVE ADDED VALUE?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: BOTH.
BOTH.
I THINK THE DIVERSITY FACTOR IN AND OF ITSELF IS IS CRITICAL TO CHALLENGE THE UH THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM THAT GROUP THINK EVENTUALLY 

PRODUCES.
BUT WOMEN, ALSO, DEVELOP AND BRING TO THE TABLE THEIR OWN PERCEPTION, THEIR OWN ASSESSMENT OF RISK.
THEIR OWN SENSE OF STABILITY NEEDS.
AND I’VE BEEN A WITNESS TO THAT IN MANY INSTANCES.
AND I THINK NOW OUR RESEARCH CORROBORATES WHAT SEEMED TO ME ANECDOTAL, BUT WHICH IS TRUE.

MARGARET HOOVER:  YOU’VE SAID THAT YOU THINK WOMEN ARE BETTER MANAGERS OF RISK.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: THEY TEND TO 

HAVE A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT APPROACH.

 THE APPROACH TO RISK IS DIFFERENT.
AND I THINK IT IS A GOOD MITIGATING FACTOR TO OTHER, SOMETIMES, MORE MEN-DOMINATED RISK APPROACHES, YEAH.

MARGARET HOOVER: ARE WOMEN BETTER MANAGERS IN CRISIS?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: HA.
YOU YOU TAKE ME TO A DESTINATION THAT I FIRMLY BELIEVE IN, ACTUALLY.
IF YOU LOOK AT 

THOSE UH COUNTRIES OR INSTITUTIONS IN CRISIS IT’S VERY OFTEN THE CASE THAT WHEN THERE IS A REALLY MESSY SITUATION, THE WOMEN ARE CALLED IN.
AND WOMEN VOLUNTEER UM BECAUSE THEY SEE THE OPPORTUNITY.
BECAUSE, AS A RESULT OF BEING A MINORITY, THEY’RE USUALLY THE BEST IN THEIR GROUP.
AND I HAVE SEEN MANY INSTANCES 

WHERE, IN TIMES OF CRISIS, WOMEN COME IN, TRY TO SORT OUT THE MESS, AND THEN, EVENTUALLY, 

PHASE OUT —

MARGARET HOOVER: WHY ARE —

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: DISAPPEAR. AND MEN COME BACK. I DON’T KNOW.

MARGARET HOOVER:  AND DO YOU THINK IT’S BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN IN THE MINORITY?
AND SO BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STAND OUT AMONGST THEIR PEERS AS A MINORITY, THEY’VE DEVELOPED A CERTAIN SET OF SKILL THAT MAKES THEM BETTER AT MANAGING A DIVERSE SET OF CHALLENGES?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I THINK MINORI — Y’KNOW BELONGING TO A MINORITY 

EITHER REPRESSES YOU, WHICH HAPPENS SOMETIMES, OR BUILDS YOUR RESILIENCE AND DEVELOPS YOUR STRENGTH.
UH 

AND UH IN THE LATTER CASE, YOU END UP WITH WOMEN WHO HAVE THE COURAGE TO SAY, THIS IS A MESS.
WE NEED TO SORT IT OUT.
LET’S ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND DO IT TOGETHER.


MARGARET HOOVER:  UM…THE IMF HAS PRODUCED SEVERAL STUDIES UNDER GET TO THIS NOTION OF FINANCIAL INCLUSION.
FIRST FOR THE AUDIENCE, YOU CAN, PLEASE, DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN BY “FINANCIAL INCLUSION”?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I’LL GIVE YOU THE EXAMPLE OF A 

WOMAN THAT I MET IN PERU, IN THE HIGH PLATEAU OF PERU, MAXIMILIANA.
THE WHOLE FAMILY HAD BEEN DISSEMINATED BY TERRORISM.
SHE WAS LEFT ON HER OWN AND SHE WAS GROWING GUINEA PIGS IN ORDER TO MAKE A LIVING. IF IT HADN’T BEEN FOR FINANCIAL INCLUSION, IF IT HADN’T BEEN FOR MOBILE BANKING AND 

THE LITTLE CARD SHE WAS CARRYING WITH HER THAT ATTESTED THE TRANSACTIONS THAT SHE WAS CONDUCTING, SELLING HER GUINEA PIGS, SHE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO, 

YOU KNOW, HAVE A LIVING, TO SURVIVE.
AND TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE ECONOMY.
THAT’S WHAT FINANCIAL INCLUSION ALSO MEANS.

MARGARET HOOVER:  SO IT MEANS WOMEN WHO CAN HAVE BANK ACCOUNTS, WHO CAN BECOME DEPOSITORS AND BORROWERS —

 WHAT ARE THE BARRIERS TO THAT HAPPENING NOW?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE:I WAS REALLY SURPRISED TO SEE THAT LEGAL OBSTACLES ARE TO BE FOUND IN 90% OF FIRM OWNERSHIP.
WOULD YOU BELIEVE THAT?
OUT OF 189 COUNTRIES, 90% OF THEM HAVE, IN THEIR CONSTITUTION, OR IN THEIR LAW, 

THE LEGAL SYSTEM, BARRIERS AGAINST WOMEN.

MARGARET HOOVER:  WOMEN PARTICIPATING IN THE FINANCIAL SYSTEMS OF THEIR COUNTRY?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: IN THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM, IN THE INHERITANCE SYSTEM. UH THERE’S A BIG DEBATE

 GOING ON AT THE MOMENT IN TUNISIA, WHERE WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE SAME INHERITANCE RIGHT AS MEN WHEN, YOU KNOW,  A DAUGHTER AND A BROTHER UH SEE THEIR PARENTS GO, THEY SHOULD BE IN THE SAME POSITION, NOT THE CASE AT THE MOMENT.
UH THERE ARE STILL COUNTRIES WHERE A WOMAN WILL NOT JOIN THE JOB MARKET UNLESS THE — THE HUSBAND 

AGREES AND ACCEPTS THAT UH THE WIFE ACTUALLY GOES TO WORK. UH THERE ARE FISCAL RULES THAT ARE REALLY GENERALLY AN OBSTACLE TO WOMEN’S JOINING THE MARKET AS WELL AND BEING 

ECONOMIC PLAYERS.
UM I MEAN I COULD GO ON AND ON.

MARGARET HOOVER:  SO THEN IN YOUR ROLE AT THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND, DO YOU HAVE METHODS, CARROTS, STICKS,

WAYS OF ENCOURAGING COUNTRIES TO INCREASE THEIR FINANCIAL INCLUSION WITH WOMEN —

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE IN NUMBERS.
AND UH 

WHEN I SEE A PRIME MINISTER AND I EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT BY HAVING THE SAME FEMALE LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION, BY INCLUDING WOMEN IN THE FINANCIAL NET OF THE COUNTRY, THERE IS GOING TO BE HIGHER GROWTH.
AND THERE IS GOING TO BE A STRONGER 

ECONOMY.
THAT IS CONVINCING.
IF YOU LOOK AT JUST F — THE ONE THAT IS EASY MEASURE IS FEMALE LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION.
IF YOU HAD THE SAME PARTICIPATION FOR MEN AND WOMEN IN A COUNTRY LIKE THE UNITED STATES,

 GDP WOULD BE 5% HIGHER.

IN JAPAN, 9% HIGHER. IN INDIA, 37% HIGHER.
AND AND EGYPT, UH SAME PAGE.
SO  EVERYBODY WANTS MORE GROWTH.

MARGARET HOOVER: RIGHT.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: UM COMPANIES, COUNTRIES.
UH, AND IF THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE, BY DOING SOME VERY SIMPLE THINGS, LIKE REVISITING A LITTLE BIT THE POLICIES AVAILABLE FOR CHILDCARE CENTERS, UH FOR MATERNITY LEAVE, UH FOR UM THE 

TAX DEFINITION OF A HOUSEHOLD, AND YOU CAN ENCOURAGE AND HELP WOMEN JOIN  UH THE ECONOMY, BE INTEGRATED IN THE FINANCIAL SECTOR, AND AS A RESULT, GENERATE MORE PROSPERITY AND 

MORE PRODUCTIVITY,
THE BETTER. THAT’S CONVINCING.

MARGARET HOOVER: IT IS CONVINCING.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: AND YET…

MARGARET HOOVER: AND YET, IF IT’S SO CONVINCING, WHY IS IT, DO YOU THINK, THAT 90% OF THE COUNTRY — MEMBER COUNTRIES HAVE LAWS THAT PROHIBIT IT?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I THINK THERE ARE CULTURAL BARRIERS, THERE ARE RELIGIOUS BARRIERS IN SOME CORNERS OF THE WORLD.

UM AND AND AND WE HAVE TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT — NOT A VERY ECONOMICALLY 

SENSIBLE APPROACH.

MARGARET HOOVER:  IT IS THAT –ECONOMIC GROWTH MIGHT, IN SOME CASES, REQUIRE A CULTURAL CHANGE??

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: TRUE.

MARGARET HOOVER: AND DO YOU — FROM YOUR POSITION IN THE IMF, USE YOUR ABILITY, YOUR LENDING POWERS, TO INFLUENCE COUNTRIES OR CULTURES IN THAT DIRECTION?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: WE ARE A FINANCIAL INSTITUTION.
UM BUT THERE ARE AREAS WHERE THE ECONOMIC GAINS 

TO BE HAD FROM MEASURES ACTUALLY JUSTIFY THAT WE RECOMMEND TO A COUNTRY TO SPEND SOME BUDGET ON MAKING TRANSPORTATION SAFER FOR WOMEN WHEN THEY GO FROM HOME TO WORK, AS WE DID IN THE EGYPTIAN PROGRAM, FOR INSTANCE.
OR UM ASK FOR SPECIFIC MEASURES INTENDED TO IMPROVE UH CHILDCARE UH CENTERS IN PARTICULAR COUNTRIES. JAPAN, THE PRIME MINISTER OF JAPAN, ACTUALLY LISTENED VERY CAREFULLY TO ALL OF THOSE POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS AND SET FOR THE BUSINESS 

COMMUNITY OF JAPAN, THE OBJECTIVE OF INTEGRATING ONE MILLION MORE WOMEN UH ON THE JOB MARKET.
AND THAT SUCCEEDED.

MARGARET HOOVER:  ARE THERE CRITICS THAT SUGGEST THAT THIS, YOU KNOW THAT EXPORTING THESE VALUES, THESE ARE WESTERN VALUES, EVEN IF THEY LEAD TO ECONOMIC GROWTH, THIS IS CULTURAL IMPERIALISM.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YOU KNOW, THE EMANCIPATION AND THE FREEDOM OF ALL INDIVIDUALS, INCLUDING WOMEN, IS NOT IMPERIALISM.

MARGARET HOOVER: 

I HAPPEN TO GENUINELY AGREE WITH THAT.
AND IT — IT SEEMS TO ME THAT HUMAN RIGHTS ARE WOMEN’S RIGHTS; WOMEN’S RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS.

 BUT THERE IS — THERE IS A BACKLASH ON THE LEFT THAT THIS — THERE’S AN — AN ACCUSATION THAT THAT THESE VALUES ARE FORCING ONE SENSE OF CULTURAL SENSIBILITIES ON TO ANOTHER.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I WOULD SAY, GET TO — GET REAL.
AND AND HAVE A LOOK AT THE ACTUAL REAL SITUATION OF UH OF WOMEN UH WHO ARE UH OPPRESSED, WHO ARE REPRESSED, AND UH

WHO COULD THRIVE IF THEY HAD, IF THEY HAD A CHANCE.

MARGARET HOOVER: THERE’S A SENSE IN THE WESTERN WORLD,

 I THINK THIS IS THE CASE, AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU THINK THIS IS THE CASE, THERE’S A RESPONSIBILITY OF WOMEN IN THE WESTERN WORLD WHO ENJOY THESE FREEDOM AND THIS ECONOMIC MOBILITY IN FREEDOM TO EXTEND THOSE FREEDOMS TO WOMEN THIS OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD THAT DON’T HAVE IT.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YES.
THIS JUSTIFIES THE WORK THAT I DO AND THE FOCUS THAT I HAVE ON WOMEN.
BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS, IN, YOU KNOW, IN 

MANY OF THE ADVANCED  ECONOMIES, WOMEN HAVE A PRETTY COMFORTABLE SITUATION, RELATIVE TO

 THE LOW INCOME AND DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.
WHERE WOMEN EFFECTIVELY CARRY THE WATER.
WHERE WOMEN EFFECTIVELY ARE DENIED ACCESS TO EDUCATION.
WHERE WOMEN EFFECTIVELY DO NOT HAVE THE HEALTH CARE THAT THEY NEED WHEN THEY GIVE BIRTH. SO, YES, WE, ALSO, IN OUR ADVANCED ECONOMIES HAVE TO PROVE OUR CASE ALL OF THE TIME AND TO PUSH BARRIERS AND MAKE SURE EVERYBODY CAN THRIVE.
BUT WE 

ALSO HAVE TO HELP THOSE THAT HAVE EVEN LESS SPACE AND FREEDOM AND OPPORTUNITIES THAN WE DO.

MARGARET HOOVER:  THE CHALLENGE IT, SEEMS TO ME, AT LEAST WITH THE IMF, AND CAN YOU ACHIEVE IN YOUR LENDING PRACTICES IS TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THIS ISN’T ZERO SUM GAIN.

  BY

 INVESTING AND WOMEN AND GIRLS EVERYBODY BENEFITS.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YOU ARE SPOT-ON, INVESTING IN WOMEN AND GIRLS IS A BENEFIT TO ALL, NOT JUST WOMEN AND GIRLS, FOR  SURE.

MARGARET HOOVER:  THIS PROGRAM “FIRING LINE” AIRED ON PUBLIC TELEVISION FOR 33 YEARS AND WAS HOSTED BY A PROMINENT VOICE AND PERSONALITY OF THE MODERN AMERICAN 

CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, WILLIAM F BUCKLEY, WHO INVITED CLARE BOOTHE LUCE, A POLITICIAN AND A FORMER AMBASSADOR AND PROMINENT VOICE IN THE AMERICAN FEMINIST MOVEMENT FROM THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE,

TO TALK ABOUT FEMINISM, AND THE ROLE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, ESPECIALLY IN THE WORKPLACE HERE ON THIS PROGRAM. I’D LIKE YOU TO REACT TO SOMETHING THAT SHE SAYS:

MRS. LUCE: For instance, I can point out that the overwhelming number of people on relief, other than those who are truly disabled, 

are women and their children, and that these women who are heads of families find it all but impossible to make 

a living wage. You can go further behind that and say, “Well, the reason is the long discrimination against women.” This is what I am protesting. I am protesting the attitude, the deep, 

underlying cultural pattern which still makes man the master of woman.
MR. BUCKLEY: What you said was that men’s discrimination 

against women is going to disappear only when men figure out that that discrimination really costs them more than it’s worth, which is–
MRS. LUCE: Yes, and I said that would be some time

MARGARET HOOVER:  WHEN MEN FIGURE OUT DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN COSTS MORE THAN IT’S WORTH.
AND SHE THINKS THAT WILL HAVE BEEN A LONG TIME.
ARE MEN BEGINNING TO FIGURE IT OUT?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I THINK SOME OF THEM DO.
WHEN I SEE MY SONS, WHEN I SEE THEIR FRIENDS, I THINK THOSE MILLENNIAL KIDS 

UNDERSTAND BETTER THE VALUE OF EACH AND EVERY HUMAN BEING. AND I HOPE THAT IT CONTINUES AT THEIR LEVEL.
I HAVE HUGE FAITH IN THE YOUNG GENERATION.

MARGARET HOOVER:  I DO, TOO, I DO TOO.
UM… STILL THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF CORPORATE FINANCE ESPECIALLY IN THE UNITED STATES, 47% OF THE UNITED STATES WORKFORCE IS WOMEN, AND YET ONLY 17% OF CORPORATE BOARDS ARE REPRESENTED BY WOMEN.
UM WE’VE TALKED ABOUT THE LOWER RUNNING OF THE ECONOMIC SCALE.
BUT ON THE HIGHER RUNG OF ECONOMIC SCALE THERE’S NOT PARITY 

WITH MEN AND WOMEN.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: NO.

MARGARET HOOVER:  YOU ARE NOW FOR QUOTAS AFTER HAVING BEEN AGAINST THEM FOR SOME TIME.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YES.

MARGARET HOOVER:  WHY?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I LOOK AT NUMBERS, AGAIN.
AND IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM AT THE MOMENT, ONLY 2% OF CEOs IN BANKS ARE WOMEN.
2%.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE EXECUTIVES IN BANKS, 20%, ONLY, ARE WOMEN.
SO THAT’S CLEARLY AN UNDERREPRESENTATION.
AND, AND, 

YOU KNOW, A WASTE OF TALENT, BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT THERE.
THE MOMENT I BECAME PRO QUOTA WAS WHEN I BECAME A PARTNER AT BAKER MCKENZIE, AND I REALIZED, WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, THE LARGEST INTERNATIONAL LAW FIRM HEADQUARTERED IN CHICAGO.
AND I LOOKED AROUND AND I SAW THAT THERE WAS ABOUT 9% OF FEMALE PARTNERS.
AND I LOOKED AT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF, YOU KNOW, YOUNG WOMEN YET TO COME, AND I THOUGHT, MY GOODNESS, IT IS GOING TO TAKE AT LEAST 70 YEARS FOR US TO REACH, MAYBE, 25%.
SO THAT 

REALLY MADE ME COMPLETELY CHANGE MY MIND AND THINK THAT WE NEED JUST TO JUMP A BIG STEP.
AND THEN, ONCE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE, WE CAN MAYBE REMOVE QUOTAS AND THRIVE ON OUR OWN MERIT, ALL OF US RESPECTIVELY, MEN AND WOMEN.
BUT THE GAP IS SO HUGE IN SOME INDUSTRIES THAT THERE HAS TO BE QUOTA.
THERE HAS TO BE PROPER QUOTAS.
NOT JUST, OH, LET’S GO FOR 50/50.
BECAUSE THEN, YOU HAVE A LOT OF ASSISTANTS 

WHO ARE SORT OF UM

DILUTE THE PURPOSE THAT YOU HAVE, WHICH IS TO HAVE 50%, EVENTUALLY, THROUGHOUT THE ORGANIZATION.
SO WHEN I SAY “QUOTA” THEY HAVE TO BE SMART.
THEY HAVE BE DISTRIBUTED ALONG THE HIERARCHY OF ANY ORGANIZATION.

MARGARET HOOVER:  BUT WHEN YOU SAY PROPER QUOTAS, WE’RE TALKING PROPER QUOTAS FOR BOARDS AND FEMALE PARTICIPATION AND PARITY.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YES.

MARGARET HOOVER:  IS THERE OTHER A PROPER WAY FOR THEM TO BE IMPLEMENTED?
SHOULD IT BE MANDATED BY GOVERNMENTS?
IN OTHER WORDS, SHOULD IT BE INCENTIVIZED BY GOVERNMENTS?
DO YOU HAVE A VIEW ABOUT THE BEST WAY TO 

INSTILL THEM?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I THINK THAT’S WHERE

 CULTURE COMES INTO PLAY.
THERE’S AREAS IN THE WORLD, RECOMMENDATIONS, PEER PRESSURE, UH THE STRENGTH OF THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, UH IS GOING TO HAVE A HUGE IMPACT.
THERE ARE OTHER CORNERS OF THE WORLD WHERE YOU NEED THE REGULATORY FRAMEWORK AND THE COMPULSORY REGULATIONS, IF YOU WILL, TO ANCHOR CHANGE.
AND I DON’T THINK IT IS A ONE SIZE FITS ALL.
I THINK WHAT MATTERS IS THAT 

OUTPUT BE MEASURED.
AND THAT THERE BE A SENSE OF, OKAY,

 HOW MUCH HAVE WE PROGRESSED SINCE THE LAST TIME WE SET QUOTAS? AND IT CAN BE INCREMENTAL OVER THE COURSE OF TIME.
BECAUSE I HAVE  — YOU KNOW, I’M NOT NAIVE.
YOU DON’T GO FROM 90% TO 50%.
AND IN THE LAW FIRM THAT I EVENTUALLY BECAME THE CHAIRMAN OF, THEY WENT 9% TO 15%, AND NOW THEY ARE NORTH OF 25%, WHICH I’M REALLY DELIGHTED ABOUT.
IT IS A GRADUAL PROCESS.
AND EVERY COUNTRY IS GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT IT FUNDAMENTALS, 

LOOK AT ITS DEMOGRAPHICS, AND

 DECIDE WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE BEST WAY TO PROGRESS TO GENERATE PRODUCTIVITY TO, GENERATE GROWTH, AND TO IMPROVE DIVERSIFICATION.

MARGARET HOOVER:  THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA RIGHT NOW ON HIS DESK HAS A BILL THAT HE’S TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER HE’LL SIGN IN THE NEXT WEEK OR NOT.
AND IT MANDATES QUOTAS FOR CALIFORNIA-BASED CORPORATIONS.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: UH-HUH.

MARGARET HOOVER:  TO HAVE WITHIN A YEAR, AT LEAST ONE WOMAN ON THE BOARD OR FACE $100,000 FINE.
AND THEN IN TWO TO THREE YEARS, TWO OR THREE WOMEN ON THE FINE, OR FACE 200 OR 300 THOUSAND DOLLARS FINE.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I THINK HE SHOULD SIGN RIGHT AWAY.

BECAUSE IF I LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED IN MY HOME COUNTRY OF FRANCE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, ATTUNED TO REGULATIONS AND LAWS AND REQUIREMENTS AND COMPULSORY THINGS THAT ARE SET, ESSENTIALLY, NOT ALL COUNTRIES ARE LIKE THAT.
BUT WHEN THE LAW PASSED TO HAVE 20% ON THE BOARD BY A CERTAIN TIME, BEFORE THAT CERTAIN TIME, BOARDS OF PUBLICLY QUOTED COMPANIES SUDDENLY FOUND WOMEN WHICH THEY SAID

 THEY COULDN’T FIND BEFORE.
SO
YEAH.

MARGARET HOOVER:  UM, THERE IS AN IMF STUDY THAT SAYS THAT COUNTRIES THAT HAVE LAWS ON THE BOOKS THAT PROTECT WOMEN AGAINST HARASSMENT AND PARTICULARLY WOMEN AGAINST WORKPLACE HARASSMENT, ARE PREDISPOSED TO HAVE BETTER FINANCIAL INCLUSION.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YEP.

MARGARET HOOVER:  I THINK ABOUT YOU, PERSONALLY, AND YOUR EXPERIENCE, HAVING COME INTO YOUR JOB, AFTER YOUR PREDECESSOR, DOMINIQUE STRAUSS-KAHN, HAD HIS OWN RUN-IN WITH THE LAW IN THE UNITED STATES, HAVING BEEN ACCUSED ALLEGEDLY OF HAVING RAPED A MAID HERE IN NEW YORK CITY, AND THEN HAD A 

SERIES OF INCIDENCES

 OF SEXUAL  PREDATION ON WOMEN THAT HE FOUGHT IN COURT…

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: SUCCESSFULLY.

MARGARET HOOVER:  HE DID SUCCESSFULLY FIGHT IN COURT.
FAST FORWARD SEVEN YEARS, WE NOW HAVE A #MeTOO MOVEMENT THAT, UM, IS FIGHTING BACK AGAINST MEN USING THEIR POSITIONS OF POWER AGAINST WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE NEGATIVELY.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE #MeTOO MOVEMENT REFLECTS A REAL CULTURAL SHIFT?
IN THE SAME WAY WE’RE TALKING ABOUT CULTURAL CHANGES IN THESE OTHER ECONOMIES, DOES IT REFLECT A REAL CULTURAL CHANGE

 IN DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, IN YOUR VIEW?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I THINK IT DOES. I THINK IT DOES.
AND IT GIVES A VOICE TO WOMEN WHO KEPT THINGS INSIDE OF  THEMSELVES WHO DID NOT WANT TO SPEAK UP.
WHO SUFFERED AND KEPT THAT BOTTLED UP INSIDE.
AND YOU KNOW, THE MORE WE, MEN AND WOMEN, CAN TALK ABOUT THOSE ISSUES, AND IDENTIFY WHAT IS PERCEIVED AS INVASION OF MY TERRITORY, WHICH SOMEBODY ELSE MAY NOT UNDERSTAND, IS ACTUALLY AN ABSOLUTE 

NECESSITY AND A PLUS.
I’LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. YOU KNOW, AT THE IMF, WE HAVE ABOUT 140 DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES IN THE STAFF.
THERE ARE STAFF MEMBERS, FEMALE, FOR INSTANCE, FROM ASIA, WHO REGARD THEIR TERRITORY AS EVERYTHING AROUND THEM.
SO IF YOU

 INTRUDE IN THAT TERRITORY, IT IS NOT DEFINED AS SEXUAL HARASSMENT BY THE LAW IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT THEY FEEL VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.
NOW, YOU TAKE A EUROPEAN MAN IN 

MY COUNTRY, FOR INSTANCE, HE WOULD NOT REGARD TAPPING A WOMAN ON THE BACK AS AN INTRUSION IN HER TERRITORY.
SO WE NEED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THOSE ISSUES.
THIS IS A LITTLE BIT ON THE SURFACE.
AND THERE ARE FAR MORE DIFFICULT ISSUES THAT HAVE DO WITH 

SEXUAL HARASSMENT WITH VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN, WHICH IS A HUGE, BIG TOPIC.
IT IS DEEP.
IT IS MULTICULTURAL.
IT IS DUAL GENDER.
AND IT NEEDS TO BE TALKED ABOUT AND, AND, UH,  WE CAN STILL, YOU KNOW, HAVE A GOOD, SOLID WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH OTHER, BUT I THINK THAT THE PRIVACY, SPACE, THE RESPECT, AND THE TOLERANCE THAT IS NEEDED HAS TO BE TALKED ABOUT, YES.

MARGARET HOOVER:  MUCH ABOUT TALKING ABOUT IT AND  MUCH OF THE #MeTOO MOVEMENT HAS BEEN, REALLY, CHARACTERIZED 

BY WOMEN TELLING THEIR STORIES.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: UH-HUH.

MARGARET HOOVER:  WOMEN TAKING COURAGEOUS STEP OF SHARING THEIR #MeTOO EXPERIENCE SO THAT OTHER WOMEN, THEN, HAVE THE INSPIRATION AND THE COURAGE TO COME FORWARD AND SHARE THEIRS.
HAVE YOU EVER

 SHARED YOUR #MeTOO STORY?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE:  NOT ALL OF THEM.
BUT I DON’T HAVE MANY STORIES.
BECAUSE I TELL YOU SOMETHING, I’M 5′ 10″.
AND TO BE ABLE TO SORT OF TOWER OVER SOME OF THOSE 

MEN HAS ACTUALLY PROTECTED ME IN MANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

MARGARET HOOVER:  DOES THAT MEAN EVEN THOUGH A WOMEN AND A VERY POWERFUL POSITION, THAT YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A POSITION OF VULNERABILITY WITH MEN TRYING TO LORD THEIR POWER IN THE WORKPLACE OVER YOU?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YES, I HAVE, IN SOME OCCASIONS,

 YES.
BUT AS I SAID, BEING TALL AND STRONG AND QUITE ATHLETIC HAS, I THINK, PROTECTED ME IN QUITE A FEW INSTANCES.

MARGARET HOOVER:  DO YOU ENCOURAGE WOMEN TO SHARE THEIR PERSONAL STORIES, DO YOU THINK THAT’S USEFUL?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: I THINK IT IS A PRIVATE MATTER FOR EACH ONE OF US TO DECIDE AND TO…  FEEL COMFORTABLE ABOUT.

MARGARET HOOVER:  IN THIS COUNTRY, WE HAVE SOME 200-PLUS WOMEN  RU NNING FOR OFFICE IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE, AND THAT SEEMS TO BE ONE ANSWER FOR THE #MeTOO MOVEMENT TO BE CONSTRUCTIVELY CHANNELED.
THERE’S ANOTHER, UM, AND I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOUR REACTION TO THIS. BECAUSE THERE’S AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION, THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT, AND THIS WOULD SIMPLY CODIFY INTO LAW, INTO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES THAT MEN AND WOMEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND HAVE EQUAL ACCESS TO ALL THE LAWS AND PROTECTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.
IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE IN THIS COUNTRY WE’RE NOW ONE STATE SHY OF RATIFYING A NEW AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION WHICH WOULD CODIFY THE EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN INTO IT.
WOULD YOU SUPPORT AN EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION?

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: YOU KNOW I’M FRENCH NATIONAL, MY VOICE 

DOESN’T REALLY MATTER AT THE END OF THE DAY. BUT IF I WERE, AND BEING A LAWYER BACKGROUND, AND KNOWING HOW IMPORTANT YOUR CONSTITUTION IS, AS MY CONSTITUTION IS IN MY OWN COUNTRY, I THINK IT WOULD BE A FANTASTIC PROGRESS, YES.

 
MARGARET HOOVER:  THANK YOU FOR THE WORK YOU DO WORK FOR WOMEN GIRLS AND FINANCIAL INCLUSION AROUND THE WORLD.  AND THAT YOU FOR YOUR LEADERSHIP FOR WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

MARGARET HOOVER: THANK YOU.