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MARGARET HOOVER:WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER IN THE AGE OF TWITTER AND TRUMP. DERAY MCKESSON JOINS ME THIS WEEK ON FIRING LINE.
MARGARET HOOVER:ONLY 33 YEARS OLD, DERAY MCKESSON IS ONE OF THE COUNTRY’S LEADING CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS. SAVVY AND UNRELENTING, HE HAS LEVERAGED SOCIAL MEDIA TO BRING ATTENTION TO SYSTEMIC INJUSTICES IN AMERICA. IN 2014, MCKESSON WAS A SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR IN MINNEAPOLIS WHEN PROTESTS BROKE OUT IN FERGUSON, MISSOURI, FOLLOWING THE FATAL POLICE SHOOTING OF MICHAEL BROWN. HE QUICKLY GAINED PROMINENCE AS ONE OF THE VERY FIRST ACTIVISTS TO FORMALLY ASSOCIATE HIMSELF WITH THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT. MCKESSON’S MIX OF COMMENTARY AND REPORTAGE ON TWITTER PLACED HIM IN THE VANGUARD OF SOCIAL MEDIA ACTIVISM AND HE LATER FOUND CAMPAIGN ZERO, AN ORGANIZATION DEDICATED TO ENDING POLICE VIOLENCE IN AMERICA. AND MOVED BACK TO HIS HOMETOWN OF BALTIMORE WHERE HE RAN FOR MAYOR. ACCORDING TO HIS TWITTER PROFILE, MCKESSON IS CURRENTLY BASED IN WITH A WAKANDA, AN ACCIDENTAL FASHION ICON, HIS SIGNATURE BLUE VEST HAS ITS OWN TWITTER ACCOUNT. HE IS THE HOST OF THE PODCAST “POD SAVE THE PEOPLE”, AND THE AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK, “ON THE OTHER SIDE OF FREEDOM, THE CASE FOR HOPE,” DERAY MCKESSON, WELCOME TO “FIRING LINE.”
DERAY MCKESSON:IT’S GOOD TO BE HERE.
MARGARET HOOVER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE. I LOVED YOUR BOOK. AND YOU TALK ABOUT IT IN THE BEGINNING HOW TWITTER SAVED YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU WERE IN FERGUSON. CAN YOU TELL US HOW?
DERAY MCKESSON:I THINK FOR SO MANY PEOPLE, AND I WRITE ABOUT THIS, IF NOT FOR TWITTER, THE PEOPLE OF MISSOURI, THE LEGISLATORS, THE POLICE FOR SURE, WOULD HAVE TRIED TO CONVINCE YOU THAT YOU WE DIDN’T EXIST. PEOPLE FORGET IN THE EARLY, IN THE EARLY MONTHS OF AUGUST, SEPTEMBER, AND OCTOBER, IT WAS ILLEGAL TO STANDSTILL. THAT IF WE STOOD STILL FOR MORE THAN FIVE SECONDS WE WERE ARRESTED. WE REMEMBERED THAT. BUT IT WAS TWITTER THAT HELPED US TELL THE WORLD WHAT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
MARGARET HOOVER: IT REALLY CREATED THIS NEW WAY OF MOBILIZING AND ORGANIZING PEOPLE.
DERAY MCKESSON:AND YOU THINK, TOO, ABOUT, BACK THEN, THE MEDIA WASN’T ASKING TOUGH QUESTIONS OF THE POLICE. IT JUST WASN’T HAPPENING. SO I THINK ABOUT MY HOMETOWN OF BALTIMORE, WE SEE THE BALTIMORE SUN PRESSING THE BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THERE ARE ALL OF THESE ARTICLES, THERE ARE ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS–IN 2014, THAT WASN’T HAPPENING. IT WASN’T HAPPENING IN BALTIMORE, IT WASN’T HAPPENING IN ST. LOUIS, IT WASN’T HAPPENING IN CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY. WE WERE THE PEOPLE DOING THAT, USING SOCIAL MEDIA. BUT I’M NOT NAIVE TO THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, SO THE FIRST PERSON EVER PERMANENTLY BANNED FROM TWITTER WAS BANNED FOR TRYING TO RAISE MONEY TO GET ME KILLED. SO I’M SENSITIVE TO THOSE ISSUES, TOO. BUT ON THE WHOLE IT REALLY HELPED US TO BUILD A COMMUNITY THAT CAN ACTUALLY ENACT REAL CHANGE AND PRESS ISSUES THAT OTHERWISE WOULDN’T GET ANY PLAY.
MARGARET HOOVER:I READ YOUR BOOK.
DERAY MCKESSON:I APPRECIATE IT.
MARGARET HOOVER:I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS FOR YOU IN YOUR BOOK. SO FIRST, I’D LOVE TO DEFINE SOME TERMS. AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE BEGINNING IS EQUALITY VERSUS EQUITY.
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH, YEAH.
MARGARET HOOVER:CAN YOU DEFINE BOTH TERMS.
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH, SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT QUALITY, EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME THING. EQUITY IS WHEN PEOPLE GET WHAT THEY NEED AND DESERVE. SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT SCHOOL SYSTEM FUNDING, WE KNOW THAT IT COSTS MORE TO TEACH KIDS IN POVERTY, TO TEACH SPECIAL NEEDS KIDS. SO WE’RE NOT ASKING FOR EQUAL FUNDING, WE’RE ASKING FOR EQUITABLE FUNDING.
MARGARET HOOVER:IS THAT ONLY IN THE CONTEXT OF EDUCATION?
DERAY MCKESSON:NO, IT’S IN GENERAL. BUT THAT’S, LIKE, AN EASY EXAMPLE FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND. SO WE THINK ABOUT EQUITY WITH REGARDS TO THE POLICE, FOR INSTANCE, YOU THINK ABOUT THE LATEST ACTS IN NEW YORK CITY, THE 86% OF THE PEOPLE ARRESTED FOR MARIJUANA ARE BLACK OR LATINO. THAT IS–NOTHING ABOUT THAT IS EQUITABLE, SO THE IDEA OF EQUITY AND EQUALITY, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO, IS IMPORTANT ACROSS A HOST OF THINGS. I USE THE EDUCATION JUST BECAUSE IT IS EASIER LENSE FOR PEOPLE.
MARGARET HOOVER:WELL, EDUCATION IS ONE WHERE IT IS VERY EASY FOR PEOPLE ACROSS THE SPECTRUM OF SORT OF POLITICAL IDEOLOGY TO ENGAGE. CONSERVATIVES WILL TALK ABOUT EDUCATION, AND CERTAINLY, I THINK ABOUT EDUCATION IN TERMS OF EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY?
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH.
MARGARET HOOVER:AND OFTEN IN EDUCATION WE FAIL OUR CHILDREN. WE FAIL THE MOST VULNERABLE BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.
DERAY MCKESSON:AND THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY IS EQUITY IN RESOURCES. SO THEY ARE NOT LIKE AN EITHER/OR, THEY’RE OFTEN A BOTH/AND. SO YOU OFTEN NEED EQUITY TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE EQUALITY MIGHT EVEN BE REAL.
MARGARET HOOVER:DO YOU SEE EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY AND EQUITY AS AT ODD WITH EACH OTHER? OR AS PARTNERS?
DERAY MCKESSON:SO PARTNERS. WE THINK ABOUT — SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE INEQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY WITH REGARD TO KIDS, LIKE, WHAT DOES IT MEAN? IN BALTIMORE YOU SAW IN THE NEWS THERE WAS SCHOOLS WITH NO BOILERS; THERE WAS SCHOOLS WITH NO HEAT AT ALL; KIDS IN COATS. THAT IS ABOUT AN INEQUITABLE ALLOCATION OF RESOURCES AT THE STATE LEVEL, RIGHT? WHEN YOU HAVE THE INEQUITABLE RESOURCE DISTRIBUTION IT IS LEADING TO INEQUALITY, THAT YOU CALL INEQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.
MARGARET HOOVER:ANOTHER TERM AND REALLY CONCEPT YOU DEAL WITH IN THE BOOK IS WHITENESS. YOU TALK ABOUT WHITE VERSUS WHITENESS, AND HOW YOU HAVE LEARNED TO TALK ABOUT THE TWO OF THEM. SO, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOUR CONCEPT OF WHITENESS IS?
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH. SO WE THINK ABOUT WHITE, STARTING WITH WHITE SUPREMACY THIS NOTION THAT, OR THIS IDEA THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE, WHAT IT MEANS TO BE NORMAL. AND THAT NOTION, ACTUALLY, BLEEDS INTO THE FABRIC OF THIS COUNTRY AND CERTAINLY THE FABRIC OF THE WESTERN WORLD, THAT THERE’S A SET OF PEOPLE WHO ARE, LIKE, NORMAL, AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS DEVIATION OR DERIVATION OF THAT. YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO GET NUDE CLOTHING AND LOOKS LIKE YOUR SKIN DOESN’T LOOK LIKE MINE, WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE? TONI MORRISON WROTE ABOUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN WE READ BOOKS THAT THE CHARACTERS ARE WHITE UNTIL NAMED SOMETHING ELSE. LIKE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WHITE BECOMES THE STANDARD FOR WHAT IT MEANS TO BE HUMAN.
MARGARET HOOVER:WHITENESS AND WHITE SUPREMACY ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE WAY YOU WRITE ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK. IS THAT ACCURATE?
DERAY MCKESSON: YEAH, SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY, WHITE SUPREMACY IS AN IDEOLOGY THAT SAYS WHITE IS NORMATIVE AND THERE’S A VALUE JUDGMENT THERE. SO WHITE IS NORMATIVE AND BETTER THAN EVERYTHING ELSE.
MARGARET HOOVER:ISN’T WHITE SUPREMACY MORE OF A CALL OUT FOR VIOLENT RACISM?
DERAY MCKESSON:NO, SO THAT’S INTERESTING IS THAT THE WAY PEOPLE THINK ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY IS NORMALLY ROOTED IN THINGS LIKE LYNCHING AND ENSLAVEMENT, THAT IS LIKE HOW PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IT. BUT WHITE SUPREMACY SHOWS UP IN A HOST OF OTHER INSIDIOUS WAYS. SO YOU THINK ABOUT FUNDING FOR SCHOOL SYSTEMS AS A GREAT EXAMPLE. AS SOME PEO — SOME KIDS AREN’T AN WORTH INVESTMENT AND SOME KIDS ARE WORTH INVESTMENT. AND SOME KIDS ARE CERTAINLY WORTH AN INVESTMENT. THAT IS ABOUT SAYING, LIKE, THERE’S A SET OF PEOPLE WHO JUST ARE WORTH MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE.
MARGARET HOOVER: BUT DO YOU THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE DEFINE IT THE WAY YOU DEFINE IT?
DERAY MCKESSON:NO. I DON’T KNOW IF IT’S LIKE, IT IS ONE THING. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WAY THAT IT MANIFESTS WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN THE WAY WE DEFINE IT. WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THERE ARE A HOST OF THINGS THAT — LIKE BAND AIDS ARE SKIN TONE AND DON’T LOOK LIKE MY — LIKE THAT IS, THAT IS, AGAIN, PERPETUATING THIS NOTION THAT LIKE WHITE IS NORMAL AND THAT WE MAKE THINGS FOR LIKE WHITE BODIES IS NORMATIVE.
MARGARET HOOVER: YEAH, I KNOW. I THINK WHAT I’M GETTING AT IS THAT THE TERM WHITE SUPREMACY EVOKES A REALLY EVIL IDEOLOGY THAT IS, THAT IS EXPLICITLY RACIST RIGHT? BUT THAT IS, IN YOUR WORDS, ONLY SUBTLY DIFFERENT FROM WHITENESS.
DERAY MCKESSON: YEAH, SO, AGAIN, ONE OF THE STAYING POWER OF WHITE SUPREMACY IS THAT PEOPLE ONLY THINK ABOUT IT IN THE MOST INSIDIOUS FORMS.
MARGARET HOOVER: I DON’T THINK YOU THINK THAT THE MANUFACTURERS OF BAND AIDS ARE WHITE SUPREMACISTS.
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH, WHAT I’M SAYING IS THAT YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN THE IDEOLOGY WITHOUT IDENTIFYING WITH IT.
MARGARET HOOVER: BUT THAT THE WAY YOU’RE DESCRIBED WHITE SUPREMACY COULD BE QUITE OFFENSIVE TO PEOPLE. BECAUSE, I THINK, THE WAY YOU’VE DESCRIBED WHITE SUPREMACY, SUGGESTS THAT IT IS SOMETHING WE’RE ALL PARTAKING IN WITHOUT INTENDING TO.
DERAY MCKESSON:BUT HOW ARE WHITE PEOPLE OFFENDED BY — LIKE THAT’S WHAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND IS THAT IF WE ARE SAYING THAT WHITE SUPREMACY IS A NOTION THAT WHITE IS NORMAL. AND PART OF BEING NORMAL IS THAT IT IS GOOD. AND THAT IT IS BETTER THAN OTHER THINGS. THAT THAT NOTION IS JUST A BAD NOTION. THAT IN AND OF ITSELF IS A BAD THING. WE THINK ABOUT DISPARITIES, LIKE THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP. BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE AREN’T, LIKE, POOR IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY WERE JUST LAZY. YOU KNOW, WHITE PEOPLE AREN’T WEALTHY BECAUSE THEY WORKED HARD. THAT’S NOT TRUE. LIKE, WE GAVE WHITE PEOPLE WEALTH AND THAT IS ABOUT AN IDEOLOGY OF SUPREMACY. THAT IS ABOUT WHAT THE IDEOLOGY OF WHITE SUPREMACY HAS DONE AT THE STRUCTURAL LEVEL. THE ONLY WAY THAT WE’LL GET TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS IS ACTUALLY TACKLING IT HEAD ON.
MARGARET HOOVER: SO IS WHITENESS A WATERED DOWN OF WHITE SUPREMACY? OR IS IT JUST INSTITUTIONALIZATION?
DERAY MCKESSON:YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, IN THIS PUSH, I THINK IS LIKE A FAIR PUSH IN GENERAL, IS LIKE HOW DO WE — HOW DO WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE’S A SYSTEM THAT IS INSIDIOUS —
MARGARET HOOVER: UH-HUH.
DERAY MCKESSON: THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE WHO ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST THAT SYSTEM WHO BENEFIT FROM IT BECAUSE IT EXISTS BUT DON’T WORK TO PERPETUATE IT, RIGHT? AND WHAT IS WHAT WE WANT TO NAME WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, LIKE, WHITE PEOPLE. THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT PARTICIPATE AND AND WHO ACTIVELY WORK TO DISRUPT THE SYSTEM OF WHITE SUPREMACY, LIKE, THAT IS REAL.
MARGARET HOOVER:BUT IN ONE OF THE CONCEPTS, YOU SORT OF ADDRESS IS, WHAT TO DO ABOUT THAT.
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH.
MARGARET HOOVER:AND HOW TO REMEDY THAT. AND YOU TALK ABOUT SORT OF ALLIES VERSUS ACCOMPLICES.
DERAY MCKESSON:UH-HUH.
MARGARET HOOVER:HOW, IN THIS BATTLE, IN ORDER TO FIX THESE, SORT OF, SYSTEMIC INJUSTICES, ONE NEEDS ACCOMPLICES NOT ALLIES.
DERAY MCKESSON:SO IN THE MACRO, ALLIES SORT OF LOVE YOU FROM A DISTANCE. “HOPE YOU’RE OKAY. LIKE, I BELIEVE IN IT.” ACCOMPLICES LOVE YOU UP CLOSE. THERE ARE A LOT OF ALLIES AND ALLYSHIP IS IMPORTANT. ALLYSHIP IS OFTEN ROOTED IN A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND STAYS ROOTED IN THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. WHAT ACCOMPLICES DO IS TAKE THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND EXTRAPOLATE IT TO SYSTEMIC EXPERIENCE.
MARGARET HOOVER: I WANT TO LIKEN THIS TO, YOU KNOW THIS LANGUAGE THAT I UNDERSTAND IN THE CONTEXT OF LGBT MOVEMENT. SO I HAVE WORKED IN THE LGBT MOVEMENT IN THE CAPACITY THAT I RUN AN LGBT ADVOCACY ORGANIZATION THAT HELPS REPUBLICANS GET ON BOARD FOR FULL FREEDOM AND EQUALITY FOR LBGT PEOPLE. NOW I AM A STRAIGHT CIS WOMAN AND I AM CONSIDERED AN ALLY. BUT I THINK THE WORK THAT I DO IS THE WORK OF ACCOMPLICE. BECAUSE I’M HELP PASSING LAWS AND HELP TO RAISING MONEY, WE’RE TRYING TO SECURE FULL FREEDOM AND EQUALITY LEGISLATIVELY FOR LGBT PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.
DERAY MCKESSON:YEP.
MARGARET HOOVER:SO, HOW DO PEOPLE WHO ARE THE BENEFICIARIES OF WHITENESS BECOME ACCOMPLICES IN THIS WORK WITH YOU?
DERAY MCKESSON: THAT’S A GOOD QUESTION. WHAT YOU’RE SAYING– THE WORK YOU’RE DOING IS ABOUT FIGHTING FOR PEOPLE UP CLOSE. WHEN YOU’RE WORKING TO CHANGE SYSTEMS AND STRUCTURES, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT WITH REGARD TO RACE, WHAT WHITE PEOPLE CAN DO IS, IT OFTEN STARTS, ALLYSHIP OFTEN STARTS WITH PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING THE PRIVILEGE OF A WHITE PERSON. THEY SAY, I GET IT, I BENEFIT MYSELF SOMETHING I DIDN’T NECESSARILY WORK FOR. THAT IS LIKE NORMALLY HOW THE PEOPLE GO THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE OF WHITE PRIVILEGE AND THEY START TO IDENTIFY IN THEIR PERSONAL LIFE, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO JUST STOP THERE. SO THEY’RE LIKE, OKAY, I GET IT. I SEE THIS STUFF AROUND ME. AND IT IS STILL REALLY LOCALIZED. WHAT ACCOMPLICES DO, THEY TAKE THE LOCAL UNDERSTANDING AND THEY APPLY IT TO THE MACRO. SO THEY SAY, OKAY, THE FACT THAT I BENEFIT FROM THIS INTERGENERATIONAL WEALTH ACTUALLY IS A RESULT OF 100 YEARS AGO, HOW WE INEQUITABLY DISTRIBUTED HOUSING LOANS AND THE G.I. BILL, RIGHT? THEY START TO UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEMIC PART OF IT. AND THAT’S WHAT HELPS PEOPLE TRANSITION INTO ACCOMPLICES, BECAUSE WHAT ACCOMPLICES HELP US DO IS CHANGE THE SYSTEM.
MARGARET HOOVER:SO TANGIBLE WAYS OR EXAMPLES THAT PEOPLE WHO BENEFIT FROM WHITENESS CAN BECOME ACCOMPLICES. IT’S LEGISLATIVE WORK. IT’S —
DERAY MCKESSON:POLICY WORK. IT’S TAKING THE FIGHT TO, LIKE, BOARDROOMS, TO CLASSROOMS. YOU THINK ABOUT — I CAN THINK ABOUT A NUMBER OF WHITE ACCOMPLICES IN THIS WORK WHO UNDERSTAND THEIR PRIVILEGE AND THEY ARE THE PEOPLE FIGHTING TO SAVE SOCIAL WELFARE PROGRAMS. THEY’RE THE PEOPLE WHO THEIR KIDS DON’T — THEY DON’T HAVE KIDS IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM BUT THEY ARE THE PEOPLE FIGHTING TO MAKE SURE THEIR RESOURCES ARE DISTRIBUTED EQUITABLY BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT A JUST SOCIETY IS SOMETHING WE ALL NEED TO EXPERIENCE, WHETHER THEY’RE PERSONALLY IMPLICATED IN THAT MOMENT OR NOT.
MARGARET HOOVER:I ADMIRE THAT YOUR WORK IS DEDICATED TO PRAGMATIC SOLUTIONS. AND IN CAMPAIGN ZERO YOU HAVE A LIST OF WHAT SEEM TO BE VERY SENSIBLE WAYS THAT YOU CAN END POLICE VIOLENCE. BODY CAMERAS. TRAINING POLICE. LIMITING THE USE OF FORCE. DEMILITARIZING MUNICIPAL FORCES. YOU KNOW, THE LEGACY OF THIS PROGRAM, IT WAS HOSTED BY WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY FOR 33 YEARS AND HE HAD A GUEST ON TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER POLICY THAT I THINK YOU ARE AGAINST: BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING.
DERAY MCKESSON: ABSOLUTELY.
MARGARET HOOVER: AND I WANT TO SHOW YOU AN EXPLANATION OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING FROM THIS PROGRAM IN 1999. LET’S TAKE A LOOK.
- GIULIANI: IT’S REALLY AN APPLICATION OF THE BROKEN-WINDOW THEORY. IF YOU HAVE A BUILDING, SOMEBODY BREAKS A WINDOW IN THAT BUILDING AND YOU SAY TO YOURSELF, THIS IS TOO UNIMPORTANT; I’VE GOT BIGGER THINGS TO THINK ABOUT THAN FIXING THAT WINDOW. THERE’S A GOOD CHANCE IF YOU LEAVE IT THERE, THEN SOMEBODY IS GOING TO BREAK ANOTHER WINDOW AND ANOTHER ONE AND ANOTHER ONE, AND THE WHOLE BUILDING IS GOING TO FALL DOWN FOR WANT OF DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM AT THE BEGINNING. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF SOMEBODY BREAKS A WINDOW IN YOUR BUILDING, AND YOU FIX IT IMMEDIATELY, AND YOU TRY TO FIND THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, AND YOU TRY TO MAKE THE POINT THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR, THERE’S A REAL GOOD CHANCE YOU’RE GOING TO SAVE THE WHOLE BUILDING. SO THE OPPOSITE OF THE BROKEN WINDOW THEORY IS WHAT NEW YORK WAS DOING FOR ABOUT 30-40 YEARS: WE DON’T HAVE TIME FOR STREET-LEVEL PROSTITUTES; WE DON’T HAVE TIME FOR STREET-LEVEL DRUG DEALERS; WE DON’T HAVE TIME FOR PEOPLE WHO EVADE FARES; AND FOR WANT OF DEALING WITH ALL THOSE THINGS, NEW YORK CITY WENT THROUGH 2,000 MURDERS A YEAR IN THE EARLY PART OF THE ’90S, MORE INDEX CRIMES THAN MOST CITIES IN AMERICA AND HAD BECOME THE CRIME CAPITAL. NOW WHAT WE DO, WE DON’T EMPHASIZE ONLY LOWER LEVEL CRIMES. IF WE DID, IT WOULD BE REALLY STUPID. BUT WE DON’T IGNORE LOWER-LEVEL CRIMES.
MARGARET HOOVER: ALRIGHT, SO THERE’S BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING. TELL ME WHY YOU’RE AGAINST THE THEORY OF IT, AT LEAST THIS IDEA THAT IF YOU CAN CONTAIN A SMALL AMOUNT OF CRIME IT WILL KEEP THE NEIGHBORHOOD SAFER.
MCKESSON: I WISH THAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID WAS ACTUALLY HOW PEOPLE OPERATIONALIZE BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING, BUT IT ISN’T. THIS NOTION THAT LIKE, IF THERE’S A BROKEN WINDOW THEN WE SHOULD FIX IT. SURE, FIX IT, RIGHT? I’M ALL ABOUT THAT. IF THERE’S TRASH IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, I GET THAT PEOPLE MIGHT TREAT SPACES BETTER THAT LOOK BETTER. THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW YORK CITY UNDER GIULIANI, WAS THAT THEY CRIMINALIZED ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY THOUGHT HAD BROKEN THE WINDOW. AND IT’S LIKE, THERE’S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CONSEQUENCES AND PUNISHMENT. CONSEQUENCES IS ABOUT CHANGE. PUNISHMENT IS ABOUT PAIN. AND WHAT WE SEE IN MASS INCARCERATION, IT IS WHOLLY ABOUT PUNISHMENT. SO YOU THINK ABOUT TODAY, IN CHICAGO, THEY SAY THAT LIKE WE SHOULD– CHICAGO IS A LOT OF VIOLENCE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE. AND WE SHOULD
MARGARET HOOVER: WELL, OBJECTIVELY. THERE’S A LOT OF VIOLENCE IN CHICAGO.
MCKESSON: YEAH, THERE’S VIOLENCE IN CHICAGO. THE SOLUTION SHOULD BE THAT WE SHOULD FOCUS ON THESE QUALITY OF LIFE CRIMES. SO WHAT YOU FIND IN CHICAGO, IS THAT THEY ARE TICKETING BLACK PEOPLE FOR RIDING THEIR BIKE ON THE SIDEWALK AND IF YOU DON’T PAY THE CITATION THAT LEADS TO POTENTIALLY IT BEING IN CRIMINAL COURT, THAT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE.
MARGARET HOOVER: THERE ARE PLACES, THOUGH, WHERE ITS VERY UM — IT WAS CONSIDERED PRETTY SUCCESSFUL IN NEW YORK, ON THE ONE HAND. I UNDERSTAND THE CRITICISM IS THAT IT LED TO A GENERATION OF MASS INCARCERATION OF BLACK MEN, RIGHT?
MCKESSON: YEAH SO WHAT PEOPLE DON’T THINK ABOUT IS IT, NEW YORK IS A PROOF POINT THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY, YOU CAN ARREST LESS PEOPLE AND THE CRIME GOES DOWN. THAT IS LIKE THE REVOLUTIONARY MOMENT THAT NEW YORK CITY IS HAVING RIGHT NOW THE LATEST STUDY CAME OUT, THE ARRESTS IN NEW YORK CITY HAD DECREASED, AND CRIME HAS DECREASED.
MARGARET HOOVER: SO WHY DO MORE THAN 50% OF NEW YORKERS SUPPORT BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING?
MCKESSON: THAT’S A GREAT QUESTION. ITS THAT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, AND PEW HAS DONE THE MOST RESEARCH ON THIS, IS THAT PEOPLE’S PERCEPTION OF CRIME ACTUALLY DOESN’T MATCH THE REALITY OF CRIME.
MARGARET HOOVER: BUT THE REALITY OF SAFETY IN NEW YORK, WAS THAT WE WENT FROM 2,000 MURDER A YEAR, SORT OF BEFORE RUDY GIULIANI CAME TO POWER AND BEFORE THIS BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING AND DROPPED TO NOW, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 200 AND 400 MURDERS A YEAR.
MCKESSON: PEOPLE WOULD SAY THAT, BROKEN WINDOWS WAS JUST THE POPULAR CONVERSATION. THAT THERE WERE ACTUALLY A HOST OF SAFETY NET AND SOCIAL SERVICES THAT HELP PEOPLE — WE THINK ABOUT — WE THINK ABOUT POV — THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN POVERTY AND CRIME IS SO STARK. IT’S ACTUALLY, YOU LOOK AT THE LATEST BUREAU OF JUSTICE STATISTICS, IT SHOWS THAT WHITE POOR PEOPLE ACTUALLY COMMIT VIOLENT CRIME MORE THAN LATINOS OR BLACK PEOPLE. BUT POVERTY IN AND OF ITSELF CREATES THE CONDITION FOR CRIME. AND SO WHAT PEOPLE WOULD SAY ABOUT THAT SAME PEER WHEN GIULIANI WAS HERE, WHAT YOU SAW WAS A SAFETY NET COMING TO EXIST IN NEW YORK CITY, THAT WAS ACTUALLY HELPING PEOPLE TRANSITION OUT OF POVERTY. THAT BROKEN WINDOWS BECOMES LIKE THE SMOKE SCREEN PEOPLE USE TO JUSTIFY THIS.
MARGARET HOOVER: WAIT, WHAT WAS THAT SAFETY NET?
MCKESSON: YOU THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE FOUNDATIONS THAT POPPED UP IN THAT SAME SORT OF PERIOD OF TIME PROVIDING ACCESS TO OPPORTUNITY AND EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY TO PEOPLE THAT JUST DIDN’T EXIST BEFORE AND PEOPLE WOULD CITE THAT AS A REASON WHY CRIME DECREASED BECAUSE PEOPLE LITERALLY, WE WERE CHANGING THE FABRIC OF THEIR CONDITIONS. NOT BECAUSE, LIKE, THE SUBWAY SUDDENLY DIDN’T HAVE GRAFFITI ON IT.
MARGARET HOOVER: SO DO YOU THINK IT HAD NO EFFECT?
MCKESSON: I THINK THAT THE EFFECT, IF ANY, IS OVERBLOWN. AND THOSE SUPPOSED RESULTS HAVE NOT BEEN REPLICATED. YOU SEE, AGAIN IN PLACES LIKE CHICAGO THERE’S NO INDICATION THAT GIVING PEOPLE CITATIONS FROM BICYCLING ON THE SIDEWALK, OR EVEN IN NEW YORK CITY RIGHT NOW, ARREST 86% OF THE PEOPLE FOR MARIJUANA.
MARGARET HOOVER: HOLD ON, I’M NOT SO SURE IT’S ACCURATE TO SAY IT HAD NO EFFECT. I MEAN BRATTON, WHO WAS THE CHIEF OF POLICE HERE IN NEW YORK, HELPED TO IMPLEMENT BROKEN WINDOWS THEORY THEN WENT TO LOS ANGELES AND IMPLEMENTED IT. AND THERE WAS A SERIES OF URBAN, SORT OF REVIVAL IN THE ’90s.
MCKESSON: IT’S INTERESTING. THE SAME DISBELIEF YOU HAVE IS THE SAME DISBELIEF I HAVE WITH YOU NOT, NOT BEING WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT MIGHT BE THE CONFLUENCE OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS.
MARGARET HOOVER: OR BOTH. COULD IT BE BOTH?
MCKESSON: I JUST, WE’VE NOT — WE HAVE SEEN THE IMPACT OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS IN COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVING A POSITIVE.
MARGARET HOOVER: I BELIEVE IF YOU INVEST IN COMMUNITIES ITS GONNA MAKE THEM BETTER, 100%.
MCKESSON: WE JUST HAVEN’T SEEN THE INCREASE OF POLICING LEAD TO DECREASING, OR LIKE — IT’S JUST NOT SOMETHING WE SEE.
MARGARET HOOVER: SO THEN ASIDE FROM INVESTING IN COMMUNITIES WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE POLICE DO IN HIGH-CRIME AREAS?
MCKESSON: YEAH SO IF WE– I’M FROM BALTIMORE, RIGHT, EIGHTH
LARGEST POLICE DEPARTMENT IN THE COUNTRY BUT WE ARE THE 25TH LARGEST CITY, RIGHT? SO YOU SEE A TON OF POLICE OFFICERS. AND CRIME IS, LIKE, ALMOST A RECORD HIGH. LIKE, AN INCREASE IN OFFICERS ISN’T THE THING. WHAT WE WE WOULD SAY IS THAT WE CAN TAKE THAT MONEY THAT WE HAVE BEEN PUMPING INTO POLICE DEPARTMENTS THE PAST, I DON’T KNOW, 30, 50 YEARS, AND WE COULD ACTUALLY INVEST THAT MONEY INTO THE PREVENTION PROGRAMS AND THE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS. AND WE BELIEVE THAT WILL, AND THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT WILL ACTUAL WILL HAVE THE BIGGEST IMPACT IF THE GOAL IS TO DECREASE CRIME.
MARGARET HOOVER: SO WHAT’S THE ROLE OF POLICE IN THE INTERIM?
MCKESSON: WELL, THAT IS THE $1 MILLION QUESTION. IT’S LIKE, I BELIEVE THAT CONFLICT WILL EXIST IN COMMUNITIES AND WE NEED A RESPONSE TO CONFLICT. I’M NOT CONVINCED THAT THE POLICE HAVE TO,
OR ARE THE BEST RESPONSE TO CONFLICT IN COMMUNITIES. SO THE QUESTION BECOMES LIKE, WHAT DO WE DO? WE’VE SEEN SOME NEIGHBORHOODS IN SOME COMMUNITIES THINK ABOUT SAFETY THAT THEY LOCALIZED. WE’VE SEEN A RESPONSE TO SAFETY IN SCHOOLS AND RESTORATIVE JUSTICE ACTUALLY BE AN INTERESTING AND POWERFUL WAY THAT DOESN’T NEED ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT TO BE INVOLVED. BUT I THINK THIS QUESTION IS AN OPEN QUESTION THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE GRAPPLING WITH. IS THAT, WHAT SHOULD THE ROLE OF POLICE BE, IF ANY?
MARGARET HOOVER: IF ANY?
MCKESSON: IF ANY. WE SHOULD LIKE — YOU KNOW IT’S INTERESTING THAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THE INSTITUTIONS THAT WE EXPERIENCE TODAY AS ENDURING AND LASTING, WHEN THEY’RE NOT. SO YOU THINK ABOUT THE CONVERSATION ABOUT ICE, ICE IS A RELATIVELY NEW THING. PEOPLE SAY WE MUST KEEP I.C.E., IT’S LIKE WE DIDN’T ALWAYS HAVE I.C.E.
MARGARET HOOVER: YEAH BUT THE FUNCTION THAT ICE PROVIDES IS LIKE , IS THE SAME THING THAT NATURALIZATION SERVICES FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PROVIDED BEFORE, THERE’S A ROLE IT PROVIDES RIGHT?
MCKESSON: ONLY IF YOU’RE USING FUNCTION AT THE VERY, VERY MACRO. THAT IS LIKE AT THE BROADEST
MARGARET HOOVER: BUT, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SUGGESTING THAT THERE IS A WORLD WHERE, POSSIBLY, WE DON’T NEED POLICE. AND THERE’S NO USE FOR POLICE.
MCKESSON: I’M SUGGESTING THAT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE CONFLICT IN COMMUNITIES AND WE NEED A RESPONSE TO CONFLICT. I KNOW THERE WAS A WORLD BEFORE THE POLICE FORCES LOOKED LIKED THIS, IF THAT IS TRUE, I KNOW THAT, RIGHT? WE SHOULD BE FREE ENOUGH TO THINK ABOUT ALTERNATIVES TO THIS, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE THINK THAT THE INSTITUTIONS ARE BROKEN. SO YOU THINK ABOUT IN CALIFORNIA, 1 IN 11 HOMICIDES COMMITTED IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IS ACTUALLY COMMITTED BY AN OFFICER, A THIRD OF ALL PEOPLE KILL BY STRANGERS ARE KILLED BY AN OFFICER, THAT TO ME ISN’T LIKE THIS, AMAZING SYSTEM.
MARGARET HOOVER: SO, AND DO YOU THINK OF THE POLICE SYSTEM AND POLICING GENERALLY AS A MONOLITH?
MCKESSON: SO I’M WILLING TO SAY THAT THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE THAT HAVE CHOSEN TO BE POLICE OFFICERS. THERE ARE PROBABLY LIKE GOOD DEPARTMENTS OUT THERE, WHILE NOTING THAT THE INSTITUTION OF POLICING HAS FAILED AT THE MANDATE OF SAFETY. IF THE MANDATE IS INCARCERATION, THEY WIN. IF THE MANDATE, IS LIKE, LOCKING PEOPLE UP AND ENFORCING THESE RULES AND EVADING JUSTICE WRIT LARGE FROM THE, THE SYSTEM THAT MOST PEOPLE PARTICIPATE IN, THE POLICE DONE THAT REALLY WELL. BUT IF THE GOAL IS, LIKE, KEEPING COMMUNITIES SAFE? I’M NOT CONVINCED THAT THE WAY WE’VE STRUCTURED THE INSTITUTION IS ONE THAT MAKES SENSE RIGHT NOW.
MARGARET HOOVER: IN 2016, PRESIDENT OBAMA AT THE WHITE HOUSE HOSTED THE FIRST-EVER INTERGENERATIONAL MEETING OF CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS WHICH YOU ATTENDED. AND IT WAS ONE OF THE LONGEST NON NATIONAL SECURITY MEETINGS IN THE HISTORY OF HIS PRESIDENCY. ONE OF THE THINGS I NOTICED IN THIS, I THINK WILL SURPRISE PEOPLE, IS THAT THERE WAS A HIGH DEGREE OF CRITICISM OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WENT TO THOSE MEETINGS. AND YOU, ALSO, IN PARTICULAR, AND IT STRIKES ME THAT THERE ARE SOME REAL FAULT LINES IN THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT AND IN THE MOVEMENT. WHAT WAS THE CRITICISM OF ATTENDING THAT MEETING ABOUT?
MCKESSON:YEAH, I THINK THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT UH — AND I WRITE ABOUT THIS, I THINK THAT PURITY POLITICS IS REALLY SEDUCTIVE, RIGHT? SO IT’S THIS NOTION THAT LIKE, YOU SHOULD ONLY SIT DOWN WITH PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH ALL OF YOUR VALUES IN THE MOMENT YOU SHOULD ONLY ENGAGE IN THINGS YOU THINK ARE GONNA BE LIKE THE MOST PURE. WHAT I KNOW TO BE TRUE IS WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF COMPROMISE, BUT WE DON’T COMPROMISE ON OUR VALUES. SO WE KNEW GOING IN TO TALK TO PRESIDENT OBAMA, WE WERE FRUSTRATED HE HADN’T GONE TO FERGUSON. WE WERE FRUSTRATED THAT IT TOOK HIM SO LONG TO SPEAK OUT. I REMEMBER SAYING TO HIM, PRESIDENT OBAMA, YOU CAN’T CALL PEOPLE THUGS. RIGHT, LIKE HE CALLED THE BALTIMORE PROTESTERS. SO WE WERE — WE DIDN’T AGREE ABOUT A HOST OF THINGS. BUT WE ALSO KNEW HE WAS WILLING TO LISTEN AND HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THESE THINGS. I THINK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, THOUGH, AND THIS MOMENT, IS A REAL REMINDER FOR THEM THAT HAVE NEVER-EVER ORGANIZED WHEN THE PERSON IN POWER IS NOT SYMPATHETIC AT ALL.
MARGARET HOOVER: IN YOUR BOOK, YOU WRITE ABOUT WORDS. AND HOW WORDS MATTER. AND HOW IN 2016, OXFORD DICTIONARY’S WORD OF THE YEAR WAS POST TRUTH.
DERAY MCKESSON:YES.
MARGARET HOOVER: WHY DOES TRUTH MATTER?
DERAY MCKESSON: IT’S IMPORTANT. YOU KNOW, WE CAN DISAGREE ABOUT A HOST OF THINGS. BUT WE SHOULDN’T BE ABLE TO DISAGREE ABOUT THE FACTS. AND WE ARE IN THE MOMENT WHERE PEOPLE ARE JUST LIKE DISAGREEING ABOUT THE FACTS. AND YOU SEE TRUMP JUST SAYING THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. YOU’RE LIKE, WELL THAT IS, THAT WAS WEIRD, RIGHT? LIKE, THIS IS A MOMENT, UNLIKE ANY OTHER, WHERE PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE TRUE AND NOT TRUE AND NOT ABOUT OUR INTERPRETATION OF THEM, NOT ABOUT OUR OPINIONS ABOUT THEM, AND THAT, TO ME, IS DANGEROUS.
MARGARET HOOVER:AND –YOU SAY IN THE BOOK,ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY IS, “GETTING TO THE TRUTH CAN BE HARD.”
DERAY MCKESSON: YEAH.
MARGARET HOOVER:BUT THAT IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT.
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH, SO I THINK ABOUT EVEN THE POLICE, IT’S LIKE, YOU KNOW, FOUR YEARS AGO, I DIDN’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT POLICE SHOOTING — I WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE, IT’S JUST A BAD COP WHO DID A BAD THING AND SOMEBODY DOESN’T WANT TO INDICT HIM. NOW I KNOW, THERE’S LIKE A WHOLE SYSTEM AND IT TOOK US A LOT OF WORK TO DO THE DIGGING TO GET TO THE SYSTEMIC UNDERSTANDING WHICH WAS HARD.
MARGARET HOOVER:UM, YOU CAME TO PROMINENCE IN FERGUSON. AND YOU SAY PROTESTING IS TELLING THE TRUTH IN PUBLIC. YOU KNOW, WHAT THAT DID, WAS HELP ELEVATE THE, I THINK, HIGH INCIDENCE THAT MANY PEOPLE WEREN’T AWARE OF, OF NOT JUST POLICE BRUTALITY, BUT REAL DISCRIMINATION AND RACISM IN POLICE SYSTEMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
DERAY MCKESSON: YEP.
MARGARET HOOVER:AND TO THE EXTENT THAT WORDS MATTER, IN THE SPECIFIC INCIDENCE OF MICHAEL BROWN WHO ALLEGEDLY RAISED HIS HANDS AND SAID, “HANDS UP DON’T SHOOT,” WHICH BECAME A RALLYING CRY, IN THAT SPECIFIC INCIDENT, THOSE WORDS, PERHAPS, WERE NOT TRUE. SO HOW AS AN ACTIVIST DO YOU CONFRONT THAT?
DERAY MCKESSON: THAT’S A GOOD QUESTION. SO NEITHER YOU NOR I WERE THERE, ANDTHERE WERE SO MANY WITNESSACCOUNTS THAT SUGGESTED THAT THEY WERE TRUE. WHAT WE DO KNOW NOT THAT WE DIDN’T KNOW IN 2014 IS THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE UNARMED THAN ANYONE ELSE WHEN THEY ARE — WHEN THEY ENCOUNTER POLICE VIOLENCE. WE KNOW THAT THERE’S NO CORRELATION BETWEEN THE VIOLENCE IN COMMUNITIES AND POLICE VIOLENCE, THAT THERE ARE SOME PLACES WHERE THERE’S A LOT OF COMMUNITY VIOLENCE AND NO POLICE VIOLENCE. AND THE OPPOSITE IS ALSO TRUE. AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE IN THE TOTALITY OF WHAT WE DO KNOW, THAT THIS STATEMENT IS MORE TRUE THAN NOT. THAT NOT ONLY HAVE WE SEEN MORE VIDEOS OF BLACK MEN RUNNING FROM THE POLICE AND STILL GETTING SHOT. YOU THINK ABOUT WALTER SCOTT. BUT THE DATA ACTUALLY SHOWS THAT BLACK– BLACK VICTIMS OF POLICE VIOLENCE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE UNARMED THAN ANY OTHER VICTIM OF POLICE VIOLENCE.
MARGARET HOOVER:I AGREE WITH YOU, LIKE, WORDS MATTER. AND. SO IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE MOVEMENT CAN CONTINUE WHILE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN WRONG ABOUT THE WORDS IN THAT CASE.
DERAY MCKESSON:YEAH, I DON’T — YOU KNOW, I DON’T KNOW IF WRONG IS LIKE THE RIGHT WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT. I THINK THAT, AS SOMEONE WHO BELIEVED THE WITNESSES, WE WERE SAYING AS A STATEMENT TO THE POLICE, THAT LIKE “HANDS UP, DON’T SHOOT.” WE SAID IT, WE CHANTED IT, WE TWEETED IT, AS A REMINDER TO THEM, THAT LIKE, EVEN WHEN WE’RE NOT ARMED, YOU CONSIDER OUR BODIES TO BE WEAPONS AND WE’RE CALLING THAT OUT.
MARGARET HOOVER: UM, WHAT IS THE CASE FOR HOPE? “ON THE OTHER SIDE OF FREEDOM.”
DERAY MCKESSON:WHAT IS THE CASE FOR HOPE? YOU KNOW I THINK ABOUT HOPE IS THE BELIEF THAT OUR TOMORROWS IS BETTER THAN OUR TODAYS. AND I TAKE THAT WITH ME EVERYWHERE I GO. AND I WANTED TO WRITE NOT ONLY ABOUT A DIAGNOSIS OF WHERE WE ARE IN THIS MOMENT, BUT SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT LIKE WHAT WE CAN DO. I WRITE ABOUT BEING GAY. I WRITE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANT TO GROW UP IN A FAMILY WHERE MY MOTHER LEFT AND JUST CAME BACK. SO THESE PARTS OF IDENTITY, ABOUT WHO WE ARE AS PEOPLE. I WRITE A LOT ABOUT SYSTEMS INSTRUCTIONS. BECAUSE I DO THINK THAT SO MUCH OF THIS IS ABOUT HOW WE THINK ABOUT THE MACRO. NOT JUST ABOUT HOW WE THINK ABOUT MOMENTS. AND THEN, I WRITE ABOUT WHAT OUR RELATIONSHIP IS WITH A POWER GRID AND OUR OWN. WHETHER THAT IS HOW WE THINK ABOUT FAITH, HOPE, GOD, OURSELVES, TRYING TO PUT THOSE PIECES TOGETHER TO OFFER SOMETHING BASED ON WHAT I’VE BEEN THROUGH WHAT I’VE SEEN..
MARGARET HOOVER: I WANT TO THANK YOU, DeRAY, FOR BEING HERE.
DERAY MCKESSON:IT’S GOOD TO BE HERE.
MARGARET HOOVER:THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME ON “FIRING LINE.”
DERAY MCKESSON: THANK YOU.
MARGARET HOOVER: IT’S REALLY BEEN A TRUE PLEASURE AND I REALLY ENJOYED YOUR BOOK.
DERAY MCKESSON: THANK YOU.