Liz Cheney

She has more than just a famous last name. She’s the highest ranking Republican woman in the House of Representatives – ever. This week on Firing Line.

CHENEY AT CPAC: There is one man in particular, we all know, who certainly has taught what it means to have the courage of your convictions, you know who I’m talking about 

She rose to prominence defending the legacy of her father, vice-president Dick Cheney…

O’DONNELL: Your father said it yesterday, Liz your father said

CHENEY: Lawrence …*crosstalk**

CHENEY: Waterboarding is not torture. And you ought to know 

Now Liz Cheney has become a national figure in her own right

CHENEY: if you are for the people, that has to start with being the most vulnerable among us,

The no. 3 Republican in the house is known for her strong views

CHENEY: I’m sorry that there are so many anti-semitics members of the House Democratic caucus 

….sharp messaging

CHENEY: I see everyday as a speaker of the HOUSE is who increasingly losing her grip on the leadership of her conference 

…and hawkish foreign policy….

TAPPER: why not bring the troops home?

CHENEY: YOU DO NOT end a war by withdrawing from the battlefield.

Many think she’s just getting started — and could be potential to be the first Republican Madame Speaker or the next Senator from Wyoming

What does Liz Cheney say now?

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HOOVER: Representative Liz Cheney, welcome to Firing Line. 

 

CHENEY: Great to be here, Margaret. Thank you for having me. 

 

HOOVER: It’s a delight. You came to prominence I think first in this country defending your dad, Vice President Dick Cheney’s reputation in the context of the Obama administration. But you yourself had served in the State Department, in the Bush administration. You have also followed your father’s footsteps to the House of Representatives where you have the same job that he had, as Conference Chair.

 

CHENEY: Yes.

 

HOOVER: Which makes you the highest ranking Republican woman in history in the House of Representatives. You’re also one of the party’s strongest voices on foreign policy and national security. And it’s not a theme that is new to you. I delighted in discovering that you wrote your college thesis on presidential war powers.  

 

CHENEY: We’re going that far back?

 

HOOVER: Tell me as you look at the national security position of the United States today do you believe that we’re safer today than we were two and a half years ago when President Trump was elected?

 

CHENEY: Well, I think there’s no question. I think if you look at the world that President Trump inherited it was really a world where President Obama and those around him had decided that the problem in the world was America and that we needed to somehow limit America. And he took steps to tie America’s hands, and I would say for example when you look at the Iranian nuclear accord that was an example of a situation where he really did give tremendous benefits to the Iranians, including cash that they used to further their terrorist aims and purposes. And so President Trump inherited a situation where a lot of rebuilding was necessary and he’s done that.

 

HOOVER: So people will hear you say that and they’ll also look at the headlines today and the headline today reveal a more bellicose posture that Iran is taking towards the United States. They reveal frankly more belligerent posture that North Korea is taking towards the United States. And the headlines frankly aren’t great when it comes to Russia or frankly China. So how do you explain to people who feel that the world was safer under the Obama administration that President Trump has taken steps to make it more secure.

 

CHENEY: We clearly had a situation during the Obama years where you had cuts in our defense budget both because of the policy of the administration and because of action in Congress. And our adversaries the Russians and the Chinese used that period of time to develop weapons systems in some cases that we can’t defend against, to make advances that we haven’t yet made. And President Trump came in and he said look I’m not going to go down the path anymore of cutting the defense budget in ways that are unsustainable and forcing our men and women in uniform to operate without the resources they need and of allowing our adversaries to continue to make advances. If you look at something like what’s going on in Iran, you know, what you have in Iran is a situation where they have been at war with us ever since 1978 and they’re in a situation where, you know, we know that they have continued to support terrorism around the world, continued their ballistic missile development, continued their nuclear weapons programs. You know, people look at the J.C.P.O.A the Iran nuclear agreement and they say oh my gosh somehow that made us safe and kept us stable and the instability is President Trump pulling out. What that agreement did was essentially give benefits to Iran in a situation which they were not required, for example, to allow inspectors into any of their military facilities. this president is making clear that he is going to stand up for our interests, he’s going to stand up for American security, and we’re not going to be in a position where we are frankly appeasing our adversaries in the hope that their behavior will change because we know that won’t keep us safe.

 

HOOVER: So we’re going to get more to Iran, but first I’d like to go back and talk about your role during the Bush administration at the State Department. You were the deputy assistant secretary for Near Eastern Affairs in the Department of State and one of the areas of focus was on democracy promotion as a tool for peacekeeping around the world. And I wonder if you still support and believe that the promotion of democracy is an important tool for securing American peace and, and support what the Bush administration called the Freedom Agenda.

 

CHENEY: I do. I do believe absolutely that those fundamental values of freedom and liberty on which we were founded are morally right and that those are values that we ought to do everything we can to help to support and defend.

 

HOOVER: And the critics of that, especially in the context of the last administration, will point towards the Middle East and say that there are just some cultures that are culturally inhospitable to the ideas of democracy or the institutions that are prerequisites for democracy. What do you say to that?

 

CHENEY: I think that’s racist. You know I think if you if you look at it– it’s not just democracy. Democracy is a very important part of human freedom. Women’s empowerment is a very important part of freedom, I believe. Economic empowerment, what we know is that all of those elements of free societies are the ones that are successful and the ones that create progress for human beings. And I believe we have a fundamental obligation to help to not just defend those in the United States, but our freedom and our success and our economic prosperity depends upon free societies around the world.

 

 

HOOVER: Do you think it’s possible for democracy to flourish in the Middle East?

 

CHENEY: I do. I mean I think you have examples of that. I mean certainly Israel is an example of that. So I don’t believe that you know somehow there are only people of certain races that want to be free. I think that that, as I said, before I think that’s a racist way to look at it.

 

HOOVER: Could democracy flourish in Saudi Arabia and in Iran?

 

CHENEY: I mean I certainly think that people have the right in all places and at all times to be free. And I think that you know when you look today at our relationship with Saudi Arabia a lot of it is— it helps us to block Iran, it helps us in terms of stability in the region. But I certainly think and when I was at the State Department spent a lot of time talking to the Saudis about how important it was that women not be treated as second class citizens. And I think those things still matter. And I think there are many societies, including the Saudis, that have a long way to go in that regard.

 

HOOVER: Let’s talk about Iran. You wrote a book with your dad in 2015 and one of the arguments you made about Iran was that the next president, whoever he or she was, should immediately rescind the JCPOA, the nuclear deal with Iran. Fast forward to today, the president has recently decided to send an additional 1000 troops to the region. We’ve seen fiery flames on the sides of oil tankers, and Iran has announced that it’s about to break the uranium stockpile limit set by the nuclear deal. First of all do you believe Iran is behind the attacks on the oil tankers?

 

CHENEY: Yes.

 

HOOVER:  Do you believe that the thing to do is to strike military targets as retaliation?

 

CHENEY: I think the president ought to be considering that and a number of other options. When you look at what the Iranians are doing the sort of bottom line message of all of this from the United States and from our allies around the world has to be that they will not be allowed to continue their support for terror. They will not be allowed to continue to pursue the kind of military action that results in attacks on commercial shipping in the Straits of Hormuz. That those kinds of behaviors that kind of activity is not something that the civilized world will stand by and accept. And so the president I think has done the right thing. Look the– what we want is to have maximum pressure including through sanctions, as you’ve seen, so that the Iranians recognize the behavior has got to stop. And I do think it’s very important for the Iranians to know that we will defend those shipping lanes that we will defend freedom of navigation, that we understand the kind of activity they’re engaged in and that it won’t be tolerated.

 

HOOVER: On May 19th President Trump tweeted “If Iran wants to fight that will be the end of Iran, never threaten the United States again.” Is there a risk of using bellicose rhetoric and not acting?

 

CHENEY: Well I think that President Trump is — in many many ways has demonstrated his willingness to act. And I think that you see that both with respect to the nuclear deal, you see that with respect to his decision, for example, when he was meeting with the North Koreans to say you know what I’m going to walk away from the table. I think he’s been pretty clear in terms of the extent to which he’s going to defend this nation. So I’m– I think actually the bigger risk for the United States comes if our adversaries miscalculate and they believe they can attack us without a response. 

 

HOOVER: What would a hot conflict with Iran look like? 

 

CHENEY: I guess I shy away from sort of saying a hot conflict, a cold conflict I think I have to deal with each individual situation as you find it. And the situation we’re in with Iran today is one where they have American blood on their hands. So the Iranians have been engaged in what looks to me like a hot conflict with us for decades.we’ve got to ensure that they don’t develop nuclear weapons. We’ve taken the agreement that basically said you’ve got a pathway to nuclear weapons in a few years was one, as I’ve said before, that I think was very irresponsible and I think it’s good that we’ve stepped away from that. 

 

HOOVER: So what should be the strategic objective of the United States vis a vis Iran. Is it regime collapse? Is it regime change? 

 

CHENEY: Our strategic objective is to get the behavior to change–

 

HOOVER: Regime behavior change.

 

CHENEY: I think the behavior needs to change. Iranians need to stop their support for terrorism. The Iranians need to stop their activities that result in the death of Americans and our allies around the world. The Iranians need to recognize that we won’t be blackmailed into lifting the sanctions.

 

HOOVER: General Petraeus was on this program a couple of weeks ago and he said the same thing. Regime behavior change is what the strategic objective should be. But, General Petraeus wasn’t sure that that objective is achievable based on what he’s seen of the Iranians. Based on what you know of the Iranians especially what you’ve written about in your book, that for 20 years, 40 years the Iranians have never negotiated in good faith. Is it possible to change that regime’s behavior?

 

CHENEY: Well I think we’ll find out the security of the United States, and of our allies around the world depends upon the Iranians not obtaining a nuclear weapon and recognizing that we won’t continue to sort of stand by while they support terrorism, their ballistic missile development, and the other malign activities across the region.

 

HOOVER: Let’s go to North Korea. North Korea’s after five hundred plus days back to testing ballistic missiles. I want to show you a clip of what President Trump has recently said.

 

TRT: 32

GEORGE: Do you think he’s still building nuclear weapons?

TRUMP: I don’t know. I hope not. He promised me he wouldn’t be. He promised we—me—he wouldn’t be testing

GS: So you still trust him?

TRUMP: Well look, I couldn’t tell you that, it would be very insulting to him. But, he answer is yeah, I believe he would like to do something. I believe he respects me. I get along with him really well. I think I understand him and I think he understands me.

 

HOOVER: Ok…  When he says that — when he says he promised me he wouldn’t be testing, that he respects me. What is your reaction?

 

CHENEY: Well I think my first reaction was to a separate part of what he said which was basically why would I tell you George.The president is obviously engaged in an effort to get the North Koreans to stop developing their nuclear weapons, And so the last thing I would expect the president to do would be to sort of you know lay all the cards on the table for George Stephanopoulos, with all due respect to George Stephanopoulos.

 

HOOVER: Does it — is there any part of it though when he says that rings true to you that President Trump actually means it when he says well he told me it wasn’t gonna test, I want to take him at face value.

 

CHENEY: Look I think the president is negotiating. I think that it’s really important with President Trump and with every president to judge based on action, I think at the end of the day that’s what matters. And what President Trump has done is to say I’m not going to go down that path.

 

HOOVER: So, do you think that messaging as a decoy and actually the administration is pulling a hard line behind the scenes?

 

CHENEY: I think President Trump very wisely is not sharing his negotiating strategy with George Stephanopoulos.

 

HOOVER: I mean it’s not just George Stephanopoulos, but what should the administration do then to resolve the– this question of a nuclearized North Korea?

 

CHENEY: Yeah I think that it’s crucial that we understand that the North Koreans understand that we are demanding, you know, complete, verifiable, irreversible denuclearization of the peninsula. I think that it’s important for the Chinese to recognize that it’s not in their interest for a nuclear North Korea to continue on the path that it’s on. That will cause destabilization in the region. I think it’s important for the South Koreans to know that the United States will stick by its commitments in the region. The Japanese the same. I think we do need to be able to work with our allies in the region all of whom recognize that a North Korea that is armed, presents a grave danger to all of us.

 

HOOVER: Is there anything they should be doing differently, the administration? Because, I mean, what you’ve outlined is essentially what the Bush administration tried to do with the six party talks. And yet we still are in this position where Kim Jong Un is testing missiles again.

 

CHENEY: Umm I think that the difference is not being so anxious to get a deal that we accept a deal that doesn’t actually accomplish that goal. And I do think that’s what’s happened too often. And I think that’s where the president was right to say to the North Koreans I am walking away.

 

HOOVER: To walk away…

 

CHENEY: Really the most important lesson if you look at the history here is how much damage it does when the North Koreans convinced the United States and the rest of our allies to accept a deal that accomplishes less than that. And then they get the benefits and they get the concessions but they haven’t actually delivered on what we need to make us safe.

 

HOOVER: I want to move on to Russia. And a lot has been made about President Trump and Vladimir Putin and the words they have for each other. But I’d like to backup to the previous administration because there was wide criticism of the Obama administration from many including you, about the Obama administration’s Russian reset policy. 

 

CHENEY: Yeah. So I think that the Obama administration and Secretary Clinton at the helm of the State Department really sort of fell into this idea that if we somehow extended a hand that that would fundamentally change the course of that country and of that regime. And I think the problem is, that you know Vladimir Putin, he’s KGB. Vladimir Putin is what he is and. He is running that nation with an effort to try to rebuild the Russian empire. He’s been quoted saying that, you know, one of the worst tragedies of the 20th century was the fact that the Soviet Union crumbled. And so I think it’s very important for us to recognize They’re very clearly our adversaries.

 

 

HOOVER: So against that backdrop of President Putin’s aspiration to reassemble Russia as a major geopolitical force. Do you think about what would happen if Russia tried to mimic the actions of the invasion of Crimea and Ukraine but with a NATO ally like Estonia. And– what would you support the administration doing in that case?

 

CHENEY: Absolutely we invoke Article 5. NATO is the single most successful military alliance in the history of mankind and it is an alliance that depends very much on the Russians recognizing that we will at all times come to the aid of NATO members if they’re attacked. I think that it’s important for us to make sure that the Russians understand that message so they don’t make a miscalculation.

 

HOOVER: Do you think that there is a risk that they might not understand that because of some of the softer rhetoric that has come from the president towards Russia and towards President Putin?

 

CHENEY: I think that the policy is clear. And you know obviously being in the House of Representatives now we hear a lot from the Democrats, on an hourly basis it seems, about, you know, allegations that the Trump administration has somehow colluded with the Russians. But what I see, you know, I sit on the Armed Services Committee and we worked very hard last week to be able to ensure that the United States would be able to deploy low yield nuclear weapons on our submarines, which is a technique that the Russians have, that they’re able to deploy, and the Democrats voted no. When they have the opportunity to actually arm the United States, they choose instead to help the Russians.

 

HOOVER: Why do you suppose there is a disparity between the administration’s actions against Russia and some of the language that the president uses about Russia?

 

CHENEY: I think Vladimir Putin is a thug. I think the Russians have clear intentions. I think we’ve seen what their intentions are. I don’t think he’s going to change. That’s my view. And I think that when you see the policy that this president has carried out, you know, its policy that I support. 

 

HOOVER: I can tell that you don’t want to say it. But would it be helpful if the president had tougher rhetoric towards Vladimir Putin. Would you like to see him say, agree with you that Vladimir Putin’s a thug?  

 

CHENEY: Look I think the president has carried out the policies that are important to keep us safe with respect to Russia and I think that he ought to be judged based on those actions.

 

HOOVER: In 1978 William F. Buckley discussed how to balance our national interests with our allies who share our values and I’d like to show you a clip from this program. When William F. Buckley discussed this dynamic with the Pallavi dynasty of then allied Iran let’s take a look.

 

BUCKLEY CLIP: We live in a world in which we have some questions as are we or are we not in favor of a strong Iran even though Iran has an extremely primitive judicial system. It is governed by an absolute monarch. My answer is yes.  I want a strong Iran because I think that there is workable within Iran, an opportunity for improvement. But what we have to primarily guard against is the fact of the Soviet Union which is the principal global menace. We after all, made allies with the Soviet Union to fight Hitler Germany. So if we can make allies with the Soviet Union to fight Hitler Germany we can certainly make allies with the shah of Iran.

 

HOOVER: As we approach are our allies and our strategic interests, how do you balance our values and human rights?

 

CHENEY: We certainly don’t live in a world where we can ensure our security by saying we will only have alliances with other liberal democracies. But I think that it’s important that in all of the conversations we have with our allies we make clear that you know human rights, women’s issues, democracy, freedom across the board are things that are important to us. Things that matter and they matter fundamentally because it’s right. Those are fundamental values that are enshrined in our Constitution because we believe those rights come from God. 

 

HOOVER: I would like to move to the House of Representatives where you are the highest ranking woman in the history of Republicans in the House of Representatives. There are only 13 women, in the House of Representatives– that are Republicans. Why do you think there are so few Republican women?

 

CHENEY: It’s no accident. Nancy Pelosi was very effective and very targeted and it was a very concerted effort to defeat Republican women. I think we have to do better. We’ve got to elect more women. I also think it’s very important for us to make sure that we are attracting more women voters. 

 

HOOVER: One of the things that distinguishes you is you’re also a mother of five. And we know in the Republican Party that they’re facing a massive generational challenge as well. And as Democrats talk about student debt and issues that have become sexy issues for youth to talk about and engage in, how is the conference chair of the Republican Party thinking about offering alternatives that are attractive to a rising generation?

 

CHENEY: First of all we have to make sure that people of all ages, but young people in particular, understand what it means you know when somebody says to you the government is going to give you a job, guarantee it. The government is going to make sure that you go to school for free. The government is going to make all your decisions for you. You don’t have to do anything. What that means fundamentally is you’re going to lose freedom. whether it’s a Green New Deal or Democratic takeover of healthcare those all come with a huge cost and that cost is loss of freedom. And so you have to make a decision — are you willing to give the government and some faceless bureaucrats who sit in Washington D.C. the authority to make those choices for your life?Fundamentally that is a system that makes slaves out of people so what we have to do is explain to people make sure people recognize and understand the cost of socialism and the cost that comes — and the fraud of socialism. 

 

HOOVER: As you think through all the issues that you and your dad have advocated for together. Are there any that you and your dad disagree on?

 

CHENEY: Yeah but I’m not going to tell you what they are, Margaret. 

 

HOOVER: Gay Marriage? How– where are you, seriously, now that gay marriage has been the law of the land for four years. Have you changed your mind about gay marriage?

 

CHENEY: You know it’s the law of the land. And there are a huge number of really important issues where we still have open issues that we’ve got to talk about and discuss and so—

 

HOOVER: So you consider it settled.

 

CHENEY:  Those are the models that I’m focused on. Yeah, I do.

 

HOOVER: You consider it settled. I always think of your father as having said freedom means freedom for everyone. 

 

CHENEY: Yup.

 

HOOVER: And that really became a rallying cry for conservatives who were in favor of the freedom to marry.

 

CHENEY: Well, and I think to what he was talking about was states rights and I think that’s an important issue. But I think the challenges that we face today are ones that have to do with you know the existential nature And those are really the issues that we’re focused on.

 

HOOVER: Some suggest that if you stay in the House of Representatives you could be the first Madam Speaker on the Republican side. Though there is an open seat in Wyoming it’s hard to imagine a Liz Cheney with the policy chops and the robust — savvy on world affairs would not take the opportunity to take a seat in the Senate or run for a seat in the Senate and influence foreign affairs. When do you suspect that you’ll make a decision about whether you’ll run for the Wyoming Senate seat or stay in the house?

 

CHENEY: I don’t have a specific deadline. I’m really busy and focused on what we need to do to combat so many of these issues we’ve talked about. And right now really in so many ways the House of Representatives is sort of ground zero for a lot of these battles and they’re battles we wage every single day, particularly when it comes to socialism, when it comes to our national security. So that’s what I’ve really been focused on– 

 

HOOVER: Are you conflicted about it?

 

CHENEY: I am. I love the House of Representatives and love what we’re able to accomplish there. You know, the Senate presents a different set of challenges and opportunities. So I haven’t made a decision, but it’s something that again I’m focused on what I’m doing on a daily basis to help make sure that we win the House in 2020 and that we keep the Senate and keep the White House.

 

HOOVER: Liz Cheney, thank you very much for coming to Firing Line.

 

CHENEY: Thank you, Margaret. Great to be with you. 

 

HOOVER: Thank you. 

 

CHENEY: Thank you, Thanks.

 

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