Roya Mahboob

Fighting The Taliban’s War Against Women, This Week on Firing Line

 

Mahboob: The day that Kabul fell, it was the darkest days of my life. 

 

Scenes of desperation from Kabul two years ago. With the U.S. withdrawal in its final stages, the Taliban gained control of Afghanistan, and broke its promises… 

 

UN Chief António Guterres: I am particularly concerned by accounts of mounting human rights violations against the women and girls of Afghanistan who fear a return to the darkest days. 

 

Afghanistan is now the most repressive country in the world for women and girls, according to the UN. School is banned after the 6th grade. Most work isn’t allowed. Even going to the gym and parks is forbidden.

 

Mahboob: There was education for everyone. It wasn’t only limited to boys or to certain families and certain ethnic groups. And we had freedom of speech. 

 

Afghan tech entrepreneur Roya Mahboob knew and lived the promise of progress in Afghanistan. In 2010, she became the country’s first female tech CEO, then was named one of the world’s most influential people by Time Magazine.

 

Announcer: Team Afghanistan (applause)

 

Mahboob also created the Afghan Girls Robotics Team that competed around the world

 

Mahboob: These young people have big dreams. If a young girl can build a ventilator, if a young girl can build a drone, because you give her equal access, anyone can do it. 

 

With no signs of the Taliban relenting, and tens of thousands of Afghans who aided the U.S. mission in Afghanistan left behind, what does Roya Mahboob say now?

‘Firing Line’ with Margaret Hoover is made possible in part by: Robert Granieri, Stephens Inc. Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, The Asness Family Foundation, Kathleen and Andrew McKenna Through The McKenna Family Foundation, Charles R. Schwab and by The Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and Damon Button. 

 

INTERVIEW

 

HOOVER: Roya Mahboob, welcome to Firing Line. 

MAHBOOB: Thank you for having me here. 

HOOVER: It’s been two years since the fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban. But I want to take you back to the first time that the Taliban took over Afghanistan in the 1990s when you were an eight year old girl. What was it like living in Afghanistan in the 1990s? 

MAHBOOB: I mean, at that time obviously the situation was different. And I just remember the day that the Taliban took over the city. They came to all the houses and they collected the TVs and books. And from the window of my house, I just see that they throw everything in the fire. And I see the ideas, the freedom, is turned to ash. And it made me angry. But then we left Afghanistan. 

HOOVER: You left with your family in 1996 and you went to Iran.

MAHOOB: Yes. 

HOOVER: Tell me about what happened with your baby sister that led your family to decide to flee to Iran. 

MAHBOOB: My youngest sister was only eight months, and my brothers and my father were not in the city. So they went for work. And my mother was not allowed to take the baby to the doctor because there was not any male guardian and the Taliban wouldn’t allow it. And that night my mom had to spend the night with my sister. I mean, she knows that she cannot do anything to save her. And the next morning we lost her. And I think that’s always remained with me. Just because we were women, we couldn’t save her. So after that my parents decided to leave and go to Iran. 

HOOVER: You spent the next several years growing up in Iran and you returned to Afghanistan in 2003. After the US-led invasion toppled the Taliban regime, you described those years and the years that followed as golden years for Afghanistan. Why were they the golden years? 

MAHBOOB: Well, in the context of the story of Afghanistan, that was the only era that democracy flourished. There was education for everyone. It wasn’t only limited to boys or to certain families and certain ethnic groups. And we had freedom of speech. And, you know, I want to tell my stories. When we returned back to Afghanistan in 2003, there was an internet cafe that opened up in Herat. And, you know, people talk about this magic box that connected you to people and the outside world. And you can find any information you want. And I insisted on going to that internet cafe. And it was the first time I saw this magic box. And I think at that moment I decided to make up my mind that technology would be the center of my career. There were so many opportunities at the time. And if you were smart and you wanted to take that advantage, you could grow. And with that amazing support that we got from the US and your allies, the door of opportunity was opened up, not only for me but for millions of women and children in Afghanistan. 

HOOVER: You earned a computer science degree from Herat University. You became Afghanistan’s first female tech CEO where you had to manage many male Afghan colleagues who were older than you. Did you observe attitudes of Afghan men changing and adapting to the new reality of women being empowered in the workforce in Afghanistan? 

MAHBOOB: I think being a tech female CEO anywhere in the world, you will face some challenges. But working in Afghanistan was more challenging and had more obstacles. But those obstacles and challenges made me who I am today. In many cases, at the beginning they feel that they should not pay you equal as your male colleagues. They don’t take you seriously as an engineer. At my time I was only one of a few women who worked in tech. And it’s difficult when you will be one of a few, because they are trying to take you down. Because they don’t like the changes, because society is not ready for that change. When you want to bring change in a society, you have to create more role models. And when we started the Digital Citizen Fund, I think it was the start of seeing the changes, because we helped thousands of tech women learn about technology. 

HOOVER: Tell me about the Digital Citizen Fund. 

MAHBOOB: Digital Citizen Fund is a nonprofit organization that I started when I left Afghanistan with a goal that technology is an accessible option for everyone, but especially for the women in conservative societies. And the idea was that these young women learn basic things about the computer, like I learned, like teaching about social media, coding, financial literacy, and robotics. And we helped 17 thousand girls from our program. We built thirteen technology centers, eleven in public high schools, and two individual STEM innovation centers in Kabul and Herat. We also helped hundreds of these women to start their own start ups. The young generation of Afghanistan has always given me hope because they were resilient, they were courageous, and they were determined to be somehow part of their communities. They were very active. If you go to every community, you see that these young people have big dreams. Talking with my youngest students, they are talking about how to go to Mars, and how to become the next president. They want to be minister. All of them had big ambitions. 

HOOVER: You launched the Afghan Girls Robotics team in 2017 which competes in robotics competitions around the world. What message did it send to create this group of women to compete nationally? 

MAHBOOB: We wanted to send the message that women in Afghanistan can do what any woman can do in any part of the world. And when First Global contacted me to build this Afghan Dreamers, I said I’m not sure if I can find the teenagers, the age groups in Afghanistan, because robotics is very new. And they told me either find the team or build a team. And I decided to build a team. And yeah, we took an exam and we selected 60 for the first competition. And, you know, when they won the silver medal and then returned back, the community was divided. Some were very conservative and they were not happy the girls were traveling without a male guardian. And they were not happy that we took the girls out, because the girls were giving handshakes, and these pictures come out. So they were very angry. But then other groups of the Herat community were very supportive. They came in actually with some of the mullahs to the airport to just show that they are supporting this group. And they support innovation. They support creativity. And at that moment I say, there is a light in the darkness. And, you know, their determination and hope changed the Afghan community. And it was a victory for us. 

HOOVER: What has happened with the Afghan National Girls Robotics Team since the fall of Kabul and the takeover by the Taliban in 2021? 

MAHBOOB: A group of them were in Kabul, and they were competing. It was in the middle of the competition of the School of Robotics that Kabul fell. And we didn’t know what to do. And thanks to the Qatari government at the time we could evacuate them and relocate them to Qatar. And, you know, we are very proud because this year we had 18 students who were accepted at universities in the United States, UK and Canada. They got full scholarships and we were really proud of them. 

HOOVER: I want to talk more about what’s happened to women and girls in Afghanistan since the fall of Kabul. But first, I want to ask you about your own experience during the evacuation. How was your family’s experience? 

MAHBOOB: I mean, the day that Kabul fell, it was the darkest days of my life. And we just failed to protect the freedom and democracy that for 20 years changed our life. We took it for granted, but we couldn’t protect it and fight for it. So that day I was realizing that. And it was hard to see that the younger generation was not going to have the same freedom that I had, and many of my generation, and the same opportunities that we had. But at that point, it was my darkest time. And I was just in shock like many others when we heard that President Ghani escaped. I just couldn’t believe it because I always admired him and his courage. And we felt all of his speeches is true. We thought at the time he is the leader who is going to protect the country. 

HOOVER: Did you feel betrayed by him? 

MAHBOOB: We feel betrayed by him and many other politicians at the time. It was horrible. It was disheartening to see it. He left before anyone else left. At the same time my team and my parents were in the airport. And the airport was a chaos, because after his escape flights couldn’t happen. And I had ten young girls in an apartment. And everybody knows that they are robotics team members, and I didn’t know how to protect them. I’m with my old parents that were there. My father was the only man. The rest were female. So – 

HOOVER: How did they evacuate? How did they escape? 

MAHBOOB: The Qatari government at the time, they are the only one who respond to our text. And they evacuated the team. But, you know, we have thousands of students. We had thousands of employees. We did as much as we could, but obviously it wasn’t feasible to take everyone out of the country. 

HOOVER: How many of your employees and students remain in Afghanistan now? 

MAHBOOB: Thousands of our students are still in Afghanistan. We couldn’t do, unfortunately, anything for them. 

HOOVER: Amnesty International describes, quote, “widespread and systemic subjugation of girls and women,” including restrictions on education, work, and movement. There are allegations of torture and imprisonment and forced marriage for women. How has life changed for women in Afghanistan in the past two years? 

MAHBOOB: [11:59:55] Life has completely changed. Millions of women went to the university and the schools and they had education. They had dreams of a better future. All of them gone. Since the Taliban took over the country, they systematically dismissed all institutions that were set up to support women. The Ministry of Women’s Affairs was canceled. The Human Rights Commission was canceled. All the shelters and organizations who supported women’s rights and helping women’s empowerment and gender-based violence, they’re all gone. And today still, after two years, the schools remain closed. Women cannot travel without male guardians. And based on the report of the U.N., nine out of ten don’t have enough food. All this is happening. And the Taliban are not noticing that being the leader doesn’t just mean to force people, but also to take care of the well-being of your citizens. But I have to say that despite all of these challenges, Afghan women, Afghan girls have shown remarkable resilience in the face of adversity. We see these young women, when they get arrested, get tortured, not even have the family support, still go to the street and protest. They still say no.

HOOVER: According to the UN, Afghanistan has become the most repressive country in the world for women and girls. What are the long term effects on the next generation of Afghan girls for these policies? 

MAHBOOB: I think that what’s happening is not only physical harm, but also psychological damage as well. And it affects the children, because the mom who is not happy and depressed will affect how the child is raised. And it’s not only the individual woman, but it also impacts the nation as a whole. The poverty level is going to go up. And you are never going to have a peaceful society if you ignore half of the population and minorities. The Taliban knows that they can’t have a prosperous society and driving the economy if they are ignoring half of the population, but also creating more restriction for minorities. It’s just not going to work. 

HOOVER: You have training centers in Herat and Kabul that continue to train students. How do they continue to operate and what is their current status? 

MAHBOOB: Unfortunately, most of our centers were closed. 

HOOVER: Closed by the Taliban? 

MAHBOOB: Yes, closed by the Taliban, because of the rule that girls after the age of 15 are not allowed to continue their education. And recently we were able to open and support girls education in Kabul, but they should be under the age of 15. We have more than 350 students there. But we also started to support communities and the underground education and initiatives that women lead. And we have thousands of students currently studying. And, as I mentioned, the young women in Afghanistan are resilient. They’re going to find a way of educating themselves. And, yes, I mean, this is not going to be a solution for millions, but I have to assure you that this young generation are different than the generation of 1996. So Taliban are faced with a different mindset.  

HOOVER: Did you just say you have hundreds, maybe thousands of women studying underground? 

MAHBOOB: We have around 1,050 students that currently are studying in underground education, and they are all– 

HOOVER: How do they do that? 

MAHBOOB: They have usually their homes, and they’re bringing 10 to 20 students there, and then they train them in math and science, and then you are paying the teachers. So that’s how the community supports it right now. Usually it’s happening with the community that the female and the families want that education for their girls. And it’s growing very fast. It’s not only us but other organizations also supporting…. 

HOOVER: So you’re saying that the Taliban’s best efforts to return women to the home and to not being educated, are not fully successful. 

MAHBOOB: No, it’s not fully successful. I mean, this is happening and Taliban already know that they cannot stop that. And that is what I’m saying, that technology is a tool that no oppressive regime can stop. 

HOOVER: What roles are left for women in Afghan society? 

MAHBOOB: They can ask this question of the Taliban. Oh, there is a role for women, being a good mother. But they forgot that to be a good mother, a mom needs security, peace of mind, access to opportunities. So they took everything from you and then they asked you to be a good mom and stay home. And they also forgot that if the mom doesn’t have a husband or a father who will be at home, how can she protect the children and feed the children? So they forgot about this part because they don’t want to think about that. There are thousands of women who are widows, and they don’t have any male to support them. And they need these jobs to make money and support their children. They didn’t think about that. 

HOOVER: You met with John Kerry in Kabul when he was secretary of state and he went on to cite you as a great Afghan success story. Decades earlier in John Kerry’s life, he was an antiwar activist. In 1971 he was on this program and he made the case that the United States should withdraw from Vietnam. Take a look. 

JOHN KERRY: We can talk for hours about why we’re there and what happened. But the question is now, should we get out, and what is really at stake.

BUCKLEY: No, that’s not the question. 

KERRY: The question is what is at stake.

BUCKLEY: The question is what is at stake, exactly.

KERRY: Exactly. And what is at stake is intimately tied to, if nothing is at stake you get out. And I have said that nothing is at stake. 

 

HOOVER: Kerry argued that Vietnam was no longer a vital US interest. And that’s what President Biden argued, that Afghanistan was no longer a vital U.S. interest. How do you respond to that argument? 

MAHBOOB: Well, I think that 20 years of fighting terrorism and extremism, and after many sacrifices of Americans, as well as Afghans, for having democracy, I think that fight was worth it. And obviously I hear President Biden, that they are not there for building nations. But we actually were a hope for many of the people around us when they see that we could talk our truth to power. And this inspired so many of the generation and young people in those countries. And I understand that it might not be a fight forever for Americans, but I think that they could withdraw responsibly. So I can say that. 

HOOVER: The U.S. and Taliban officials have recently met for the first time since the fall of the government. The Taliban said they discussed lifting sanctions and returning Afghan assets. And the US officials have voiced concerns over human rights and pressed supposedly for the reversal of restrictions on women and girls. Do you see the US engaging in a dialog about human rights with the Taliban as an encouraging development? 

MAHBOOB: I mean, many Afghans have different perspectives on this. I would say that engaging with the Taliban in dialogue should continue. But not meeting with the Afghan women’s leadership and other people who disagree with the government, I think is wrong. I mean, it’s good that you have meetings at the same time with the women in the same city, making sure the Taliban understand the world didn’t forget about the women in Afghanistan 

HOOVER: That the world hasn’t forgotten about the women in Afghanistan. 

MAHBOOB: Yes. This, again, gives them a message that they cannot ignore us, and they cannot put us in the oppressive time that there was in 1996. 

HOOVER: What is the sentiment amongst Afghans who cooperated with the United States who then saw the United States leave? What is the feeling about the United States to those who are left in Afghanistan? 

MAHBOOB: I mean, many of them are disappointed, especially those who work for the U.S. government. I think it’s a moral obligation for United States and their allies to take the people who work for them out, and give them a chance to leave. It’s in the best interest of the United States as well, because many of these people who worked for the U.S. government in the past, they have skills, they have knowledge. They can contribute to this society. And I think that is a moral obligation. 

HOOVER: You had an extraordinary experience of having a former president of the United States paint a portrait of you. President George W Bush painted a portrait of you, which he then featured in his book Out of Many One. And he said that his portrait of you is among his favorite paintings. What was that experience like for you? 

MAHBOOB: You know, my life has been changed because of President Bush’s decision to come to Afghanistan. Lots of schools have been built, roads built, hospitals built. And we had an amazing time. And this has happened because of one person who had the courage to come all the way, and say no to darkness and bring the light. And so for me, always I wanted to meet President Bush. And I had this honor to meet with him. And I have a lot of respect for Mrs. Bush and President Bush for everything that they have done, especially for women’s empowerment. They have done a lot. 

HOOVER: He painted you wearing a headscarf.

MAHBOOB: Yes. I wear usually a scarf because it’s part of my culture. But, I don’t know, since the Taliban took over the power, I feel like a bit– But I think that I like the scarf because I just want to show that I’m Afghan, and show that this is a beautiful thing that I have from my culture. 

HOOVER: On the one year anniversary of the fall of Kabul, you tweeted, “Remember, caution and acceptance never change the world. If we do not dare to lead the way and dream of something different, nothing will ever change. Freedom demands sacrifice, bravery and persistence.” Another year has passed since that tweet. How will you ensure the world does not sink into caution and acceptance? 

MAHBOOB: Because we will not allow it. We will be amplifying the voice of the women. And I think, as I mentioned, it’s going to take time. It’s a challenging fight. It’s a challenging road, but it’s worth it. It’s worth it, you know. I had a chance to live in freedom and democracy and it changed my life. I live in New York and I started my business. I’m doing robotics and many other things. But I think that those generations who are left behind in Afghanistan, they are worth it too. It’s worth thinking about them and giving the things that I have today here, making sure that they have it too. And another thing, I think that extremism and terrorism are diseases, like a cancer that is caused by poor education, poverty, and not having a government hear your voices, and you’re living in a world where there is no opportunity. And looking at the Taliban soldiers, they never had these chances. They lived in a village. They lived in the dark. They never had access to information outside their world, and they only heard what they were told. So I think that we also need to think about how we will create a solution for Afghan people inside the country. We’re talking about millions of the young generation who are very vulnerable. If we forget about them, there is a huge risk that they can become brainwashed. So that’s why we should not leave them in darkness, and make sure that the well-being of citizens, and having access to information, are very important. And we have to do that to prevent the radicalization of this young generation. 

HOOVER: Roya Mahboob, thank you for joining me on Firing Line. 

MAHBOOB: Thank you for having me.