Tom Steyer

Margaret Hoover: He’s one of the most important people in politics.  And there are a billion reasons why.  Democratic megadonor, Tom Steyer, this week, on Firing Line.

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Margaret Hoover: A former hedge fund manager from California, Tom Steyer believes impeaching President Trump is a moral imperative. One of the defining issues of our time. He has put his money where his mouth is pouring more than one hundred and twenty million dollars into races across the country during the last election cycle. Whatever happens with the president however one thing is certain Tom Steyer will remain a force to be reckoned with in Democratic politics in 2020 and beyond. Tom Steyer welcome to firing line.

 

Tom Steyer: Margaret thank you very much for having me.

 

Margaret Hoover: Thanks for being here. So you spent one hundred twenty million dollars in races across the country and in the political cycles of 2014 and 2016 just as much. All that together makes you one of the highest spending individuals in American politics. So first I wonder if you can reflect with me on what impact does money have in our politics.

 

Tom Steyer: In our case what I’ve done is try to start grassroots organizations under the belief that the most important and best source of power in the United States is the American people. So if you look at actually what we’ve done we’ve tried to organize people to go into communities and talk to each other so that people can get engaged in the political process and participate that we believe that the thing that will save America the best force in America is the American people and to get them engaged again in our democracy is job one.

 

Margaret Hoover: So to get them engaged cost money. 

 

Tom Steyer: In 2018 we did the largest youth voter mobilization in American history. And what you do under those circumstances is you have to – it’s like starting a company you have to hire people. You have to train them. You have to deploy them. You have to measure how it’s going and adjust as you go along. So you have people who work full time like to pay the rent and eat food and you know all the rest. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Right, so to mobilize people in politics in this country it costs money.

 

Tom Steyer: If you want to hire people you’ve got to pay them. And so if you want to and then that’s what we do. So we had an organization in NextGen Rising in 2018 that had 750 paid staffers a lot of whom were college students working 20 hours a week for us. But we also had 15000 volunteers. So it was a – an organization to try and get people out and talking to each other and understanding. We’re really trying to organize people from 18 to 35 the largest age cohort in America the most diverse age cohort in American history and people who know who had voted in the past at half the rate of other Americans we said that’s not a representative democracy. We need to get these people engaged and involved so that we can get the kind of representative democracy that America is all about.

 

Margaret Hoover: So do you think we have to pay for representative democracy?

 

Tom Steyer: I don’t think you’re paying directly. I think you have to pay for for political organization. Yeah I don’t think it’s free to get people organized to set up organizations to encourage people to vote. That’s what we believe will save us. That’s what we you know think about in all our efforts.

 

Margaret Hoover: Because you’ve been involved in three election cycles at least where you’ve spent significantly where does money in your view have the greatest impact and the smallest impact?

 

Tom Steyer: I think that money is a shorthand that people use to try and measure impact and I think that that is you know very inaccurate. I think the way what we believe works. The thing that we think has by far the most impact is what we would think of as engagement is people literally people talking to each other whether it is face to face on the phone or through social media. What I don’t think is effective in a electoral context is big TV ads. 

 

Margaret Hoover: OK I’m glad you mentioned TV ads because you ran a bunch of them. I’d like to play one of them.

 

Tom Steyer: OK.

 

Margaret Hoover: So our audience is familiar with them and maybe they .

 

Tom Steyer: In case they missed one [laughter].

 

Margaret Hoover:  In case they missed one, let’s take a look.

 

Tom Steyer: Thank you.

 

Tom Steyer (AD): I’m Tom Steyer. Like you I’m a citizen who knows it’s up to us to do something. It’s why I’m funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment.

 

Margaret Hoover: So you don’t think money makes a difference with television ads.

 

Tom Steyer: What I said was in electoral politics. And what we were trying to do with those ads was to reach out really broadly and introduce an idea to say hold on. You know there’s something going on that we should all reflect on together.

 

Margaret Hoover: And so issue advocacy – it works?

 

Tom Steyer: Well I think if you’re trying to reach the broadest possible group of people it works. But it’s also let me say one other thing which is true. It works differentially in America based on age. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Right. A television ad works for somebody older.

 

Tom Steyer: If you were to ask, my four kids you know what do you think about TV ads. They would say Dad we don’t watch TV. They may watch the shows but they don’t watch him real time and they don’t and they try to avoid the ads. So to a very large extent when you’re running TV ads you may be introducing a broad concept you’re trying to reach the broadest possible group but that’s really what it’s limited to.

 

Margaret Hoover: So but coming off the 2018 election cycle you were involved in congressional races directly, Senate races directly as well as issue advocacy. And my experience in I I’ve I don’t I don’t have the experience of spending my own money in politics but I do have experience as a political operator in politics and the places where I see money having a real impact in politics is in congressional races for sure. Sometimes they’re localized television markets where buying ads can be cheaper or more expensive depending on the race. And so for five hundred thousand dollars somebody can come in, in an independent expenditure effort and really change a race one way or the other where I see it having less of an impact is– or where it’s harder to measure is on the broad issue advocacy

 

Tom Steyer: Thats funny because we do the exact opposite, Margaret just so you know.

 

Margaret Hoover:  You disagree I know, so I think we do disagree in terms of how money can really have an impact in politics. But again you’ve spent more than I have.

 

Tom Steyer: Well no I’d say this: when we look at what we’re doing. We are organized we are organized in 2018 by congressional district. But what we were trying to do if you think for one second about a normal midterm election like 2018 traditionally about 45 percent of Americans vote which means 55 percent of American citizens don’t vote. What we were saying is rather than fighting over the 1 to 2 percent in that 45 percent of normal voters who can’t decide which way they feel this year we said we need to encourage participation by the 55 percent. So what we were doing was going out into the community and trying to have as many conversations through as many media as we could. And that was our goal and let me say this the 18 to 29 year old age cohort in cohort in America voted at the highest rate ever since 18 year olds were allowed to vote in 1971 for the highest ever. So we went from a really really lower participation.

 

Margaret Hoover: For an off year Election cycle.

 

Tom Steyer: For a midterm election cycle yes.

 

Margaret Hoover: For a midterm election cycle. What about the repeal of Citizens United. Because progressive politicians and progressives generally really denounce the use of political– vast sums of political wealth in politics. What is your view about Citizens United. 

 

Tom Steyer: Of course I think they should get rid of Citizens United. Of course I think that money is a corrupting influence in politics. So let me talk in one second right. 

 

Margaret Hoover: OK. 

 

Tom Steyer: How we try to deal with it so I can look you in the eye and say I think what we’re doing is straightforwardly patriotic and good. First of all we try and be transparent. we don’t do things that we don’t disclose, 

 

Margaret Hoover: Every dollar you spend in politics is disclosed.

 

Tom Steyer: We try to be as transparent as possible. In a lot of different ways. Secondly we’re doing overwhelmingly grassroots politics. There’s trying to be engagement participation. And the third is I’ve made sure that not only does none of this hit my bottom line in a good way. But in addition, that you couldn’t even argue it for a while people were saying I was doing this so I could make money on clean energy investments. And I was like OK that is the most ridiculous stupidest argument I’ve ever heard in my whole life. But I will make sure that under every circumstance if we have a clean energy investment that is held in the foundation. So if it turns into a huge bonanza. I can’t touch the money. It can only be given away. we’re overwhelmingly trying to push the power back to the American people because we feel as if through money, through mostly corporate money or indirectly corporate money there’s been a hostile corporate takeover of American politics.

 

Margaret Hoover: Well what’s true regardless of anybody’s view about Citizens United is that wealthy individuals are able to use their vast sums of wealth in order to focus a spotlight on issues that are important to them. And so certainly in that way you’re able to disproportionately impact the political discourse in this country because of what you’re willing to spend on it.

 

Tom Steyer: Again I would say this: overwhelmingly what we’re doing is not changing the discourse is we’re talking to people about their issues and trying to push the power down to the people. If you look at our impeachment campaign – that is a petition drive. We are not walking the halls of Congress. I am not calling up Nancy Pelosi. I am not lobbying people. The only people we’re talking to is the American people. That is an attempt to put together the voice of the American people on an issue that I consider to be the most important political issue in the United States. 

 

Margaret Hoover: OK let’s– let’s go there. Let’s end it right after Election Day on November 8th. You had an op ed in The New York Times–an opinion editorial in The New York Times saying the new Democratic House majority must initiate impeachment proceedings against President Trump as soon as it takes office in January. Now there was real disagreement about running on impeachment as a strategy from the Democrats but they took the House. What is your argument for why they must move immediately towards impeachment. 

 

Tom Steyer: Well there’re two points about impeachment. One is has Mr. Trump met the criteria to be impeached and two is is it urgent to get him out of office. And let me say before I go into those two points, if he’s removed from office, the person who will replace him is a conservative Republican from Indiana. So let’s talk a little bit about criteria to be impeached. We asked 58 constitutional experts, legal experts, to a–to tell us that a year ago in December and then to update in June and they came up with nine different criteria and we put it on the web at need to impeach dot com so if you want to spend an hour of your time listening to people you can. But let me say this. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Yeah.

 

Tom Steyer: If you listen to that it is a lay down. And the two most obvious points are obstruction of justice and corruption. I mean corruption is these so-called emoluments clause. I’m not a lawyer but I know I can read and it says in the Constitution the president cannot take payments from foreign countries. This president takes payments from foreign countries every single day, has done it every single day since he’s been president and continues to do so. So that’s–so that’s corruption. The second one is obstruction of justice. We’ve seen this president try to obstruct justice since almost the day he got into office.

 

Margaret Hoover: Well so, the Constitution calls for the impeachment, it calls–it allows for the impeachment of the president or another, uh official if there is treason bribery or high crimes and misdemeanors.

 

Tom Steyer: Right.

 

Margaret Hoover: Which is it for you? 

 

Tom Steyer: High crimes and misdemeanors is an old fashioned word. What it really means is has he broken his oath to the Constitution and the American people. And one of the traditional things the overwhelming points there is obstruction of justice. He has been trying to obstruct justice successfully. He continues to obstruct justice on a weekly basis. If you take a look and see the criteria for his new acting attorney general as far as I can tell his overwhelming strong point to be appointed acting attorney general is that he did a CNN op ed where he said the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt and should be curtailed or at least dramatically limited. If you look at the, uh, the justice– the recently confirmed Justice Kavanagh as far as I can tell his overwhelming point is that he wrote a law review article in something like 2006 where he said the president can not be investigated either civilly or criminally w-while he’s in office. It seems as if this president is overwhelmingly focused on the obstruction of justice in his case and he continues to do it and it–he does it in broad daylight every single day. So–

 

Margaret Hoover: I just have to correct you, it was in 2009 that Justice Kavanaugh wrote that and–Judge Kavanaugh wrote that–and he, because in 2006 he was in the White House and what he said in that piece is that the president is not above the law and the b- president should be held accountable for civil and criminal crimes after he’s president.

 

Tom Steyer: Afterwards, I understand.

 

Margaret Hoover: But then he should–But-but it’s interesting that you’re making this case about impeachment and high crimes and misdemeanors because this is not the first time on Firing Line that someone has come here and argued for the impeachment of a President.

 

Tom Steyer: Ha ha, are you about to show me an old clip?

 

Margaret Hoover: ultra conservative Ann Coulter was on Firing Line making the case for high crimes and misdemeanors against Bill Clinton and I’d like you to take a look.

 

Ann Coulter: It’s Congress’s duty to impeach a civil officer who has committed high crimes and misdemeanors. It’s their constitutional duty and it doesn’t say “may” as, um, an op-ed piece in The New York Times suggested today. And if congressmen and senators aren’t prepared to do their constitutional duty I think they shouldn’t run for office, uh, in a government founded on the blood of patriots.

 

Buckley: You will be guided in your thinking about the good health of the republic on how it ends up handling this issue.

 

Ann Coulter: Absolutely.

 

Buckley: So if it does, um, uh simply absorb it and proceed your conclusions are very dark about the prospects for the Republic.

 

Ann Coulter: Yes.

 

Buckley: Well that’s not good is it.

 

Ann Coulter: No it isn’t. There are so many ways I think Clinton has harmed this country. But just to take one to move beyond the reprehensible acts and that is lying to the American people and making it acceptable to lie. Um, it’s sort of a basic principle but people really forget this. You really can’t have civilization if people just casually tell lies everyone knows that you can’t rely on someone’s word. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Is this one thing you and Ann Coulter agree on?

 

Tom Steyer: Well, I think that there is a dramatic difference between what we’re talking about. I think she’s referring to one specific lie that, uh, President Clinton told in her opinion. I think the Washington Post–I’ve lost count, but I think it’s more than five thousand.

 

Margaret Hoover: It’s over three thousand.

 

Tom Steyer: I think it is five because I said 3000 at a town hall and everyone’s like Tom you’re so out of date it’s five thousand. (Laughs)

 

Margaret Hoover: It’s hard to keep up. Here’s–here’s the, um, I think the question about impeachment–there’s a couple of things. First of all, um, what will you do now the Democrats have won. What is the next step in need to impeach–.

 

Tom Steyer: Well–well, can I interrupt for one second, Margaret. I don’t mean to be rude, um, the other question is about urgency. You know I said there’s the criteria to be impeached and then there’s the urgency to be impeached. And you know what we’ve seen this president do is refuse to protect the American people, the safety of the American people in several instances in the most basic ways.

 

Margaret Hoover: Like what? 

 

Tom Steyer: I think the first one which people were outraged about at the time but which I think they’ve now conveniently fo–forgot about was when he denied the overwhelming evidence that the Russians had hacked the 2016 presidential election. Here we had a hostile foreign power deliberately attacking the basis, the most central basis of our democracy. He not only refused to protect us. He sided with them. If you were to say what is the job of a commander in chief, it’s to protect the United States of America, our democracy, and our people. That’s number one. Number two.

Second time that he absolutely refused to protect the health and safety of the American people. We heard overwhelming evidence from scientists around the world about six weeks ago that we have to solve the climate crisis by 2030, definitively. And what they said was i–we don’t have to give it a try, we have to complete the task or face unimaginable suffering was their word.

Unimaginable suffering. And by the way as a Californian we’re seeing some suffering. Forty four people. No no no no.

 

Margaret Hoover: That’s true.

 

Tom Steyer: Seriously. The president of the United States has said I don’t believe it based on no information. In fact I’m going to try and exacerbate it. I’m going to cut off money to California for firefighting if you don’t do what I want. We’re seeing a president, a commander in chief with evidence that Americans are going to face unimaginable suffering and saying not only am I not going to alleviate that or deal with that–I’m going to make it worse.

 

 

Margaret Hoover: So are you going to try to hold the Democrats accountable to impeach President Trump?

 

Tom Steyer: We are going to try and build the voice of the American people and let the American people hold them accountable. That is–Margaret, the only way that this will happen. As I said, this has to be a nonpartisan thing. This–if this is a strictly Democrat– 

 

Margaret Hoover: So how many Republicans are part of the list. How many Republicans are you reaching out to.

 

Tom Steyer: I would say somewhere between 10 to 15 percent of the people on the list are Republican, something similar are independents. So they do exist. When we go around the country– the overwhelming –the overwhelming impulse of the people who show up is straight up patriotism. They’re worried about the system. 

 

Margaret Hoover: I actually agree with you. This—if-if you’re going to be effective in trying to impeach the president, it absolutely would have to be a bipartisan effort.

 

Tom Steyer: Yes.

 

Margaret Hoover: So it’s-it’s, but-but getting Democrats into the House of Representatives was the first step. Holding them accountable seems to me to be a different step. What are you going to do to hold them accountable or to build a bipartisan majority in order to enforce articles of impeachment?

 

Tom Steyer: We’re going to try to continue to put out the information so Americans can figure out what’s right. But we also believe our point has always been events will show us correct events will continue to happen where people will say oh my gosh. So it turns out this is a—

 

Margaret Hoover: Am I sensing a change in your strategy.

 

Tom Steyer: No. This has always been education. It’s always been about getting Americans to see this together—

 

Margaret Hoover: But you have said the day after the election that you want them to pursue—the Democratic Congress absolutely must pursue articles of impeachment. And now it seems to me that you’re saying hold on this could take time maybe you’re waiting for a Mueller investigating. Maybe you’re waiting for a process. Have you changed tactics?

 

Tom Steyer: No.

 

Margaret Hoover: OK.

 

Tom Steyer: Look we’ve always said the same thing—when we started Mr. Mueller hadn’t even indicted anyone or made anything. We believe now that what happens, what will drive this is two things: events and the will of the American people. I don’t believe that this is a question of convincing elected officials that all of a sudden what we’re saying is right.  They already know we’re right.

 If you went to Washington D.C. and asked them: Do you think this guy’s unfit? Do you think he’s dangerous? Do you think he breaks the law every day? Do you think he is endangering the public? 

 

Margaret Hoover: People would say yes. 

 

Tom Steyer: They would say yes. Republicans and Democrats. Including specifically Republicans. The question has always been: Is it more important to do the right thing now? Is it more important to stand up for the American people and America? Or is it more important to do the political thing for the next election? And what we’ve been saying all along is, this is an overwhelming need to protect the American people and the country.

 

Margaret Hoover: So part of what was concerning to me about your strategy is that it employed impeachment as a partisan political tool. 

 

Tom Steyer: No. 

 

Margaret Hoover: How not? Because — because it seems — it seems to me like you’ve actually changed the direction. 

 

Tom Steyer: No, no, we’re not. We’ve always been doing two things. Our organizing — has all — that is an organization that’s been in place for six years that we do it, you know — that we are on those campuses, we’ve been organizing in some of those states for five years, literally. We’ve — and that’s — that is an organization that exists called Next Gen. 

 

Margaret Hoover: I want to move to 2020, but first you mentioned the immediacy and the urgency of climate change and that this president isn’t taking it seriously and that in — by 2030 we’re going to face really dire consequences as a country and as a world. Um you have a carbon footprint, yourself. 

 

Tom Steyer: Yeah. 

 

Margaret Hoover: You’ve invested in companies uh fossil fuel — that have invested in fossil fuel infrastructure, specifically throughout Asia. And while you have made a stand of — of moving away from them, those investments will continue and those mines will continue to operate into the future, perhaps decades into the future. How do you square that with the urgency of climate change? 

 

Tom Steyer: Look, we invested — I ran a investment business that invested in every part of the economy, every part of the economy, including the fossil fuel part of the economy. And I realized about 10 years ago and if I were smarter and and figured it out 20 years ago I’d be much happier with myself. I would also like to be better looking if you could arrange that as well. I would like to be smarter. When I figured that out, that’s one of the reasons I left my investment firm completely is — and I divested myself completely because I realized, oh my gosh, we’re in a position where we have to change this and I per– and it’s something where I feel as if I need to be part of the army of people –. 

 

Margaret Hoover: So you’re completely out of any fossil fuel investments. 

 

Tom S: I have been for long — for years. Yes. Because I — and you’re right. We invested in every part of the economy and I realized, oh my gosh, this is something that we can’t continue doing. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Who are some of the candidates in — that are running in 2020 that you admire? 

 

Tom Steyer: I don’t know who’s actually running in 2020 is the answer is. As far as I can tell, everyone in the United States of America is running in 2020. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Is it — I mean there’s a thing that’s happened with Donald Trump where people look in the mirror and think, God, if that guy can do it, I can do it. 

 

Tom Steyer: Ha ha ha. 

 

Margaret Hoover: You know, is that something you ask yourself? 

 

Tom Steyer: Ha ha ha. That isn’t the question I ask myself. 

 I ask myself a different question and that’s this: Look I view us as being in a crisis and I think that’s one of the biggest differences between me and what I think of as the inside the Beltway Washington elite is they view this as business as usual. I view this as a crisis for America. And so in that context my goal is to figure out what can I do to get America back on to a just and prosperous life and I my attitude is — they’re — I want — it isn’t about me. It’s about getting back onto the just and prosperous path. So I’ve been trying to figure out what can I do to bring, you know, whatever talent I have to that goal and that movement. And as hard as I can because I do believe it’s urgent and I do believe it’s a matter of right and wrong one of the things I’ve discovered, Margaret, in going around the country and doing 40 town halls and all this time is, I am a really competitive American. I do not like to see Americans suffer. I do not like to see Americans fail. I don’t like to see America fail. I don’t like it when I go places and I realize we are not the leaders of the free world. That makes me crazy. I do not like it when I realize that Americans don’t have the opportunities to succeed the way they should. And we aren’t going to succeed as a country the way we should.   

 

Margaret Hoover: Sounds to me like you’re running. 

 

Tom Steyer: It may sound like that to you, but you want to know something? That’s how I feel. That’s not me running. That is what — I went around this country in thought, this is so wrong. We’re on the wrong path. We’re so much better than this. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Will you announce that you’re running for president? 

 

Tom Steyer: If I figure it out, I certainly will. 

 

Margaret Hoover:But why don’t you do it right now? 

 

Tom Steyer: I’m worried it would help your ratings too much. [Laughs] 

 

Margaret Hoover: This is public television. Don’t you want to help the country? 

 

Tom Steyer: [Laughs] But I’m telling you that I look around and I say — we have every advantage and every capability to make the 21st century another American century. And we are blowing it. Under this president, we are blowing it in a big time way and that makes me — that means that there will be — for one thing unimaginable suffering for America’s — for Americans, but also it means that we won’t be living up to our potential and Americans won’t be living up to their dreams. And that stinks. That completely stinks and I don’t care if you’re a Republican or a Democrat. You should have that feeling too. And if you have that feeling it doesn’t mean you’re running for president. 

It just means you’re an American. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Tom Steyer, candidate for president, thanks for being on Firing Line. I appreciate it. 

 

Tom Steyer: Margaret, thank you for having me. 

 

Margaret Hoover: Thanks for being here. 

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