♪♪

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>> Hello, and thanks

for joining us.

I'm Jim Paymar with the

"Long Island Business Report."

Solar and wind energy have

become a crucially important

source of inexpensive, renewable

energy across the country and

the world.

But how does Long Island, with

some of the highest costs of

electricity in America,

stack up?

Are we taking advantage of

nature's bounty and reducing our

carbon footprint?

"Peril & Promise" is an ongoing

series of reports on the human

impact of and solutions for

climate change.

As part of that series, we're

taking a look at Long Island

solar- and wind-energy

industries.

Joining me to discuss this is

Gordian Raacke,

Executive Director at

Renewable Energy Long Island,

and Neal Lewis,

Executive Director of the

Sustainability Institute at

Molloy College.

Neal, Gordian, thank you so much

for being with us today.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> So, Gordian, I posed in the

open the situation that we have

around the globe and around the

country in terms of renewable

energy resources and how we're

utilizing them.

How are we doing on Long Island?

>> We're doing pretty good on

Long Island.

We now have more than 40,000

solar rooftop systems installed,

solar electric systems

installed, homeowners generating

their own electricity with free

fuel delivered by Mother Nature.

We have plans there.

There are now plans to install

offshore wind turbines like they

have in Europe and to meet a

large portion of Long Island's

electric supply from those

resources.

We're doing great on energy

efficiency in building and

building codes, but, of course,

we've done a lot, we've seen a

tremendous amount of progress,

but we've got a lot of work in

front of us.

>> And, Neal, what do you see?

I mean, are we going down the

wind direction, are we going

solar, a combination of the

both, and which dominates?

>> Well, I think this is a very

exciting time in general, but

Long Island could really be the

center of many of these big

accomplishments with renewables,

so we see some real success with

solar, as Gordian just

mentioned.

Homes that are in the 40,000

number -- that's pretty

impressive.

It's more than any other region

in the state and one of the best

in the country.

Now with wind, we've got the

first really significant

contract that's setting the

stage for Long Island and

New York State, which is this

15-turbine contract that was

approved by Deepwater Wind.

>> Right.

>> And they already have

operating the five first

turbines in the water in the

United States, off of

Block Island, so we know they

can do it.

Deepwater's proven they can do

the work.

So, now we're poised with this

15 that's been approved by

contract, and the governor said

a much more exciting number that

we've all been paying a lot of

attention to, and this is this

2.4 gigawatt goal for 2030.

So, that would translate into

about 400 turbines.

So, if 15 have been approved so

far, you can imagine the

business potential here and the

job-generation potential.

Europe, which Gordian has

traveled to a number of times

and documented their successes,

but they have something like

60,000 people in the wind

industry, just wind, aside from

the solar numbers.

So, we see enormous job

opportunities, even though you

see it playing out with the

Paris Agreement, the efforts to

get the president to withdraw

from it, you see places like

Long Island and New York State

are on the side of really

wanting to go with renewables,

like California, but you do see

coal states and oil states that

are pushing the president to go

the opposite direction and sort

trying to hold on to technology

that's passed.

Coal doesn't employ very many

people anymore.

That's not our future.

>> And, Gordian, you even think

that someday in the

not-too-distant future, that we

can become totally sufficient in

terms of renewables, creating

all of our energy on

Long Island.

Is that possible?

>> That's right, Jim. Yeah.

We now have all the technologies

and the know-how that we would

need to generate all of our

electricity, certainly, and, to

a large part, all of our energy

from renewable resources.

That's solar power, wind power,

water power, hydropower,

et cetera, and, of course, also

energy efficiency and much

smarter demand management.

The area where I live,

the South Fork of Long Island,

both towns have actually set a

goal to meet 100% of

communitywide electricity

consumption -- 100% --

from renewable energy resources.

>> So, despite what's going on

in Washington...

>> Right.

>> ...localities and states are

kind of taking their own road

and going forward.

>> Well, that's one of the

things about energy,

fortunately, as we look at

what's going on with the EPA and

when it comes to protecting us

from toxins and such -- very

disconcerting what's happening

with the new administration.

But when it comes to energy, the

states do play a little bit

stronger leadership role, so as

much as we're concerned about

what's gonna happen with the

current administration, we have

this BOEM office that was

created under Obama, so it's the

Bureau of Ocean Energy

Management, and it's --

They've done a great job of

really looking at the area and

figuring out where you could put

the turbines in between shipping

lanes, things like that.

It's taken years, lots of

discussions with various

stakeholder groups.

All that work we hope continues

under this administration, so

there's a lot of concern there,

but you're right.

For the most part, fortunately,

the states play a bigger role,

so the governor here has said,

"Let's get to 50% by 2030."

We all recognize we got to do

even more than that as we go

from there.

And, of course, as much as we

want both solar and wind --

the two complement one another.

When the sun stops shining, many

times, the wind is still

blowing, so the two kind of fit

very well together, but we also

want to see a lot of efficiency,

so we have a lot of old

buildings, a lot of old homes,

hundreds of thousands of old

homes.

>> They need conversion.

>> So, we do have a program on

Long Island, if I could throw in

a quick pitch, which is

www.longislandgreenhomes.org.

And it's a way to help

homeowners to get free home

energy audits, which the state

provides.

It's free.

But you get someone to really do

an analysis of your home and

figure out what it would take to

make it more energy-efficient,

so that's what we want to see a

lot more of.

>> Gordian, I would assume that

there's a huge economic

incentive to become

energy-efficient.

I mean, if we could create the

energy that was renewable, we

would be a very competitive

economy when Long Island is

spending so much of its

resources on, you know,

electrical use and it's some of

the highest numbers in the

country.

>> Of course.

I mean, when you think about it,

we send, on average, a billion

and a half -- $1.5 billion -- to

LIPA every year to just pay to

buy the fuel that we burn in the

power plants to supply the

electricity.

So, if we become much more

energy-efficient and don't waste

electricity and fuel and we

generate the electricity through

technologies where the fuel is

free, that money can stay in the

local economy and create local

jobs, and that's really a huge

opportunity that we would miss

if we didn't go this way.

>> Is electric use plummeting on

Long Island?

>> Electric use, islandwide --

LIPA just put out an assessment

of that -- is now actually flat.

Out on the East End, on the

South Fork in particular, peak

demand is still on an up curve,

but islandwide, peak demand is

now flat on the island.

So, we're doing much better than

we used to.

>> And we have a lot of old

power plants, don't we, Neal?

LILCO built them back in the

'50s and '60s, and they're at

the end of their life span.

Are we gonna do away with them,

and if we do --

>> It's discussions of stranded

assets and some of those other

sort of business-class

discussions that need to be had

on these questions, 'cause it is

tricky.

Certainly, this new report that

Gordian's mentioning, which, by

the way, he was out ahead on

this argument that we could get

our efficiency improvements so

that we don't keep growing the

demand, and what we see now is a

2010 report compared to a

2017 report.

In those seven years, what we've

learned is rather than demand

shooting up, it's now flattened

out, so working on building

codes, working on the codes and

requirements for appliances that

comes out of the federal -- all

these different players can help

to push efficiency and homeowner

knowledge, so we've seen it all

flatten out.

It does raise the question, what

do you do with the old power

plants?

And, clearly, the

environmental-group argument is,

let's invest in renewables and

efficiency, and guess what --

that's what the business

community is saying, too.

You know, one of the things we

said -- this is a bit of a

dichotomy between those that

want to hold on to coal jobs and

oil jobs and those that want to

embrace the new economy.

On Long Island, we have the

Long Island Association, a very

big business group,

with Kevin Law, who's a former

LIPA C.E.O.

He understands these issues.

He's been convening

environmental groups to work

with him and support this

effort, so we have business,

environment, labor on

Long Island all see this as an

opportunity for clean, renewable

jobs in the future, not just our

clean energy and our

environment, but also the

economic side of it.

>> What about subsidies?

This played a big role in

getting people to solarize their

homes, and I understand that

that's going away, at least in

some part.

Can you explain?

>> Some of it you still have in

place.

The federal and the state tax

credits on solar are still

around.

They won't be around forever, so

if you're thinking to go

solar...

>> Now's the time.

>> ...don't delay, but...

[ Laughter ]

Well, those subsidies or those

rebates and tax credits, which,

by the way, are also a given for

fossil-fuel technologies in many

places.

It's not just renewables that

get subsidies.

When a technology isn't fully

ready yet for a mass market or

the price is still a little bit

on the high side, these

subsidies help establish an

industry.

In the case of Long Island, they

were just a hand--

Really just two solar installers

in the beginning.

Now we've got dozens and dozens

of them, so the subsidies helped

to establish a local industry.

>> The price really came down.

>> And the price came down.

>> Gordian's website was

originally the main source.

People would find the companies

and then you would connect them

and get the subsidy, but what we

have seen is market

transformation.

>> Yeah.

>> And I know from your

experience with Europe, you

would tell us that we're seeing

the same thing in Europe with

wind now.

So, they've had enough

experience with wind that the

price is really coming down,

just as we've demonstrated can

happen here with solar, and so,

as these prices come down with

these capital-intensive, where

there's no outside concern for

fuel, economically speaking,

this is where the investment

should be.

I mean, you know, it almost

feels like we need to shake and

wake up the businesspeople in

the rest of the country.

Like I said, on Long Island,

they seem to get it, but this is

our future, and, economically

speaking, you know, we can't

keep fighting when something is

off --

You know, it's a little bit like

the old floppy disks, and you

want to hang on to the floppy

disks while the computer

technology has changed.

>> But if you see a country like

China, which, you know, was

going coal, coal, coal, it's now

going solar, wind, wind, wind,

wind in a big way, who's

manufacturing the solar panels

today?

The Chinese.

Who's manufacturing the wind

turbines?

>> It's in Europe, mostly.

>> Mostly in Europe.

Aren't we losing a huge

opportunity here in America, and

why can't we create the stuff

right here in Long Island?

>> Well, and that's, I think,

the governor's objective --

Governor Cuomo's objective --

when he put forward that goal of

2,400 megawatts of offshore

wind.

That's not just to have these

wind farms making clean

electricity.

That's to start a new heavy

industry here in the

State of New York.

Right now, they have to bring

specialized vessels over from

Europe to install a wind farm

offshore.

That's crazy.

We can build these vessels here.

>> We used to build lots of

stuff.

>> So, that's a great way to

bring manufacturing jobs to the

State of New York.

When we reach Governor Cuomo's

2,400-megawatt-offshore-wind

goal, that's enough power to

power 1.25 million homes...

>> Mm-hmm.

>> ...with 100% clean, renewable

electricity.

>> And if I could add to that

point that Gordian's making

about the economies of scale,

the fact that the governor put

such a big number out there is

key to really trying to pull

this industry from now being

primarily a European industry to

being major here in

the United States.

Massachusetts has proposed a

number that's sort of

comparable -- 1.6.

So, when you put the two

together, we're now beginning to

talk about a scale that's

attracting big business, so you

saw a -- is it a Norwegian oil

company, Statoil?

>> Yes, yes. I heard about that.

>> That put in a bid for an

offshore wind site that we're

gonna lease from

the United States

offshore of Long Island.

So, it's sort of like the

message is getting out to some

of the business community that

this is the future and they need

to invest, but in order to do it

right, we can't just do a few.

We have to do a really --

You know, we have to be all-in.

It has to be a big commitment.

>> Well, tell me how we lost our

place in terms of creating solar

panels.

I mean, we were a frontrunner on

that one, and now we seem to

have gone out of business.

>> Yeah. Well, you know, it's

like with many other things.

The Chinese can manufacture for

a lot less than we can, I guess.

But the beauty about offshore

wind is those parts are so huge,

the blades are gigantic, and you

can't manufacture them somewhere

else easily and then bring them

a long distance.

We really need to manufacture

them here...

>> That's a great point.

>> ...portside.

So, that's gonna make it harder

for the Chinese to compete with.

>> Do you see states becoming

competitive over energy?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> In reducing energy usage?

>> Yes. There's a certain

element of, you know,

post-and-brag or whatever,

you know?

A lot of the governors and such

are setting goals in each of

the states.

>> Like in California?

>> Yeah, and, you know, we had

John Rhodes, the president of

NYSERDA on Long Island just

recently, and what he said is,

"The governor's 50% by '30 now

has teeth.

This is not just a goal."

>> It's a mandate.

>> This is now the policy of

New York State.

And so we have markers and

targets and numbers that will be

achieved as we get towards these

numbers, so it's sort of like,

you know, early in this, maybe a

decade or so ago, a number of

states were putting numbers out

that maybe didn't have the force

of law behind them.

So, now it's getting more

serious, and, as we say, we

think this is attracting the

potential for big business to

come to Long Island.

>> And what's remarkable and we

should mention is that the

Long Island Power Authority,

in its new plan now, has said

that the old polluting fossil

plants are part of our past --

20th-century technology.

They will not be investing in

those anymore.

They will be investing primarily

in modern 21st-century

technology -- solar, wind,

energy efficiency,

demand-response programs,

battery storage, and some small,

flexible peaker plants that can

make up for the variability of

renewable energy sources,

right -- when the wind doesn't

blow, et cetera.

But the old giant power plants,

fossil power plants, that

pollute our air...

>> They're history.

>> ...are gonna be part of

history.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> So, kudos to the

Long Island Power Authority

for recognizing that, and this

is a sea change on Long Island's

energy policy.

>> You also mentioned hydro in

the very beginning.

I mean, what are we talking

about?

We don't have any big slopes.

>> We don't have that, really,

here on Long Island.

>> We have to buy it from

Quebec, right?

>> We buy it from other places.

But maybe, at some point, we'll

have tidal power...

>> Tidal power?

>> ...and wave power...

>> A lot of it's not really

considered truly commercially

available yet.

You have a proven track record

with a lot of years on it.

>> Anyone using it anywhere?

>> I think they're using some of

it in Europe -- in Scotland and

in France.

>> Okay.

>> There's a couple pilots.

>> Yeah, pilots.

>> So, you know, to our audience

at home, what can they do?

I mean, you know, obviously, we

know we can shut lights off and

we can lower our thermostat.

What else can we do?

>> Get the energy audit that

Neal talked about.

>> Yeah. Get the energy audit.

It's gonna get you into LED

lights, first of all.

But, yeah.

>> You get an energy audit,

which means you bring someone

out to the house and they kind

of do a scan?

>> Yeah. They do an imaging

thing, and then they do a blower

door so they can tell you how

much air moves in and out of the

house.

Takes a couple hours.

It's worth like $350, and it's

free, because the state knows if

they get a lot of people to do

it, a certain percentage are

gonna follow through on making

their home more efficient.

>> So, does this mean

insulating?

>> That's right, and there are

ways that we can finance that on

your electric bill and help to

keep the financing costs low

through the state's program.

So, you know, you can end up

with a scenario where your house

is currently drafty and maybe

the A.C.'s on its last leg or

the heating system's on its last

leg, and instead of keep working

them in a really inefficient

way, you improve them.

There's really no out-of-pocket

expense 'cause you can finance

it through your savings.

So, you made an investment in

your home.

Your home's more comfortable.

It's better for everybody.

Everybody wins.

We put people to work locally

to make that improvement, rather

than spending all that money on

fuel, like Gordian was talking

about, and, you know, I want to

say another thing about where

we're at in this process.

I think another reason why

Long Island is poised is because

of the decision made a couple

years ago to bring in PSEG as a

new management team.

As he says, Gordian mentioned

LIPA is still making the big

decisions as a board because

they're the public entity.

They hired this management team.

But for years, they had a kind

of confusion of exactly what the

roles were between the two and

the contract had to be redone,

and right now, I think that PSEG

is showing that they're

performing well.

And so what this means is I

think Long Islanders are more

comfortable about the idea of

talking big about big wind and

big solar, whereas, years ago,

there was feeling of

"OH, LIPA -- you know, they

can't do anything right."

>> [ Chuckles ]

>> They're getting it right now.

>> Some of it was unfair

criticism, but some of it was

fair, and I think now we have a

better structure, better

operations.

We're seeing the public saying

that they approve of the

structure better and giving PSEG

better grades.

So, all that, I think, sets the

stage for what we're talking

about, which is some big

decisions.

>> Well, people remember

Shoreham with LIPA, so...

>> That's right. That's right.

And I do think that that's in

our past.

>> Yes.

>> Shoreham was a scenario where

you had the utility that was

investing, whereas here, the

private companies invest in wind

and solar, and then they pay on

performance, so the rate-payers

are not on the hook if the

technology fails.

Now, of course, wind turbines is

relatively --

>> We pay only for the

electricity.

>> And speaking of that, before

the show started, we were

talking about autonomous-driving

cars, electric cars.

Those two could be an energy

source, right?

You plug them in, and they store

energy, and then they can give

the energy back to the grid.

Can you explain that, Gordian?

>> Sure. I mean, it's just like

an energy-storage facility.

When electricity is plentiful

and there's not a lot of demand,

you can store electricity in a

battery.

Your car, your electric car, is

a battery on wheels.

When demand is high, you can

sell that electricity to the

grid for a pretty penny, because

everybody wants it at that

point.

So, your car will become a great

investment at some point in

time.

>> And your home, too, can

create energy that can be sold

back to the grid, correct?

>> That's correct.

That's happening with solar,

and now, of course, there are

home energy-storage

technologies.

The Tesla Powerwall is one

example.

Yeah. So, you know, we're in the

21st century now.

>> We're talking about smart

homes.

>> Gonna be exciting.

>> They connect things, so we're

gonna have our things in our

home or appliances talking to

one another and realizing there

are ways where the refrigerator

can stay cold but they can still

sort of pull back down or ramp

down on its usage at key

moments, and it's really

fascinating in terms of what

that means for the potential.

As we look ahead, we want smart

meters so that that fits in with

the smart house.

>> You know, when the

air-conditioners go on, a smart

thermostat can detect whether

there's a lot of demand for

electricity right now and just

postpone that turn-on for a

moment or for a few minutes or a

couple hours.

You're not even home.

When you come home, your home is

gonna be nice and cool after

work, but it doesn't have to be

just drawing electricity

all day long.

>> What about --

When I fly over Long Island --

You know, the flights from JFK

and LaGuardia, they fly over

Long Island -- you see these

massive structures where flat

roofs.

Why aren't they --

Why don't they have solar arrays

on them?

>> Well, the short answer is we

would like them to do that.

We want them to do that.

We want --

Anybody that owns buildings with

big roofs should have an

analysis done and figure out

what the potential there is.

When we look at it like with

Suffolk County, which had some

old government buildings, it was

a little disappointing when the

report came back, 'cause some

buildings were good for putting

solar on.

Many of them, you could only get

a relatively small amount 'cause

there's too many mechanicals and

other things.

You know, we had a training

recently organized by one of the

solar companies on Long Island,

EmPower Solar, which was about

"solar ready," so it's talking

with the builders about at least

looking ahead.

You should build with an eye

towards making it so it's a

house or a building that will be

easily adding solar on in the

future, 'cause, unfortunately,

that wasn't the thinking with a

lot of those roofs that you're

looking at.

But we would like to see more of

the built environment having

solar on it, so all those

buildings --

Sometimes it's a question of one

person owns the building, one

company, and then a different

company is paying the electric

bill, so they don't feel

motivated to because they have a

tenant or a lease, you know?

>> And don't those billings --

Primarily, they have these black

asphalt roofs that suck in all

of the --

>> They should also have --

Yes, they should have a cool

roof or a green roof.

>> They should be painted or

something.

>> Yeah. There's a white ceramic

kind of technology, came from

the aerospace industry, or from

NASA's, actually, technology,

really interesting technology

that you put on your roof and it

reflects the sun back up.

>> Gordian, what else do you see

in Europe going on?

You know, what about these

turbines on top of buildings,

smaller turbines?

'Cause you can't, you know --

I mean, obviously, these massive

wind farms out on the sea --

that's wonderful, but what about

here onshore?

>> Yeah. Well, we have some

potential for onshore wind.

Typically, it would be a

conventional horizontal-axis

wind machine.

The vertical-axis --

they look nice.

They're not yet cost-effective.

But they --

You know, there are always new

technologies coming up.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Just going back on the roof

issue, if you have a commercial

facility, you might want to talk

to your facility manager.

>> I mean, if you're a

businessman, you want to drive

down the cost of doing business,

right?

>> And let's not neglect to

mention PACE.

So, in Suffolk County now, we

have PACE, and, hopefully --

>> PACE is a financing program?

Oh, okay.

>> It's public access to

financing for buil--

So, the premise is this --

if your business has a big

building and it has a roof that

no solar is on it, there's gonna

be a price to purchase and put

that solar on, and you could

have that fully financed through

a mechanism where it puts the

bill into the payment on the

building, meaning sort of like a

fee on your building, on your

taxes.

So, the difference is, if you're

a business, you don't want to

show too much debt of things

you've invested in 'cause you

want to invest in your business.

>> Right.

>> So here you're investing in

the building, so the investment

in the building is shown as a

tax expense.

What's good about this is if the

business leaves and the bill

hasn't been fully paid, the bill

stays with the building 'cause

it improved the building.

So, I'm explaining it quickly.

Businesspeople can do it better

than I'm doing.

But you can imagine where I'm

going.

There's a real potential here

for many businesses.

Now across Suffolk, they can do

it, and soon, hopefully, in

Nassau, can invest, as Gordian's

saying.

Invest in your facility to

reduce one of your biggest

bills -- that should be seen as

a good investment, just as if

you were buying new equipment to

make your operations faster or

you're reducing your bills --

your electric bill, your heating

bill.

>> But -- we're almost out of

time -- climate change.

Obviously, this has a huge

impact on climate change, and we

got hit by Sandy five years ago,

and we know what that can do,

those kinds of storms.

We don't want those here.

And the administration --

the Trump administration --

has talked about pulling out of

the Paris Peace Accords.

Whether they do that or not,

we don't know.

But what does renewable energy

mean for climate change?

>> Look, Jim, we know that we

have to dramatically reduce our

carbon emissions to mitigate

climate change, to solve that

problem.

In fact, we need to reduce it

between 80% and 90% by

mid-century or earlier.

>> Is that possible?

>> It is possible.

New York State actually has a

goal to reduce carbon emissions

80% economywide.

That means we have to go 100%

renewable electricity and other

energy sectors, and, in fact,

Governor Cuomo, at his

State of the State address,

talking about climate change,

talking about offshore wind, and

the 2.4 gigawatts of offshore

wind for 1.25 million homes,

said, "And we're not going to

stop until New York becomes 100%

renewable, because that's the

only way to make our state

sustainable."

So, that's the future.

We will be using 100% renewable

energy for everything.

>> You know, some 20 years ago

with Kyoto, the world came

together, and we really couldn't

reach agreements, and that was

20 years ago.

There was about 70 countries

that agreed.

Now with this Paris Agreement,

which was the end of 2015, where

Obama was still president and he

worked hard to get China to come

to the table, 'cause that was a

big part of the issue, was that

they weren't fully there --

Now we have this major

agreement, and America is

potentially walking away from

it, so we're gonna be with Syria

and Nicaragua, and the rest of

the world is talking about

moving to clean, renewable

energy and energy effic--

>> Which doesn't make sense,

because President Trump is a

businessman, and he must

understand the business

imperative of lowering our

energy costs and creating more

renewables.

>> Retooling -- Retooling our

energy economy completely.

>> Re-creating America.

>> Investing in

infrastructure --

who wouldn't want that, right?

That's a huge opportunity.

>> America first.

Renewable energy, right?

Okay. Well, listen, let's hope

it happens, because we know it's

good for all of us.

Burning fossil fuels is not a

good thing.

Renewables are pretty

inexpensive, and let's just hope

that Long Island continues down

the path that it's going today.

Gordian, Neal, thank you so

much.

It was a great conversation.

>> Thank you.

>> And that wraps up our

conversation on wind and solar

energy on the island.

To learn more about

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And for more on the

"Long Island Business Report,"

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I'm Jim Paymar.

Thank you for joining us for

this edition of the

"Long Island Business Report,"

and we'll see you next time.

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