WITH SO MUCH UNKNOWN IN MOSCOW, PUTIN’S WAR IN UKRAINE, THOUGH, HAS FORCED THE WESTERN WORLD TO WEAN ITSELF OFF RUSSIAN OIL AND GAS.

THE FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE IS URGING WORLD LEADERS TO NOT USE THE ENERGY CRUNCH AS AN EXCUSE.

SPEAKING AT THE OPENING OF THE COP27 SUMMIT GORE SAID THAT WE MUST, QUOTE, CHOOSE LIFE OVER DEATH AND NOT MAKE LONG-TERM COMMITMENTS TO FOSSIL FUELS.

TO DISCUSS DEVELOPMENTS FROM THE CONFERENCE AND NEW CLIMATE INITIATIVES, AL GORE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF THE ONGOING PUBLIC MEDIA INITIATIVE ‘PERIL AND PROMISE: ON THE CHALLENGES AND THE SOLUTIONS TO CLIMATE CHANGE.’

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU, WALTER.

YOU’VE JUST COME BACK FROM EGYPT WHERE YOU WERE AT THE U.N.

CLIMATE CHANGE SUMMIT, COP27.

ONE OF THE BIG PIECES OF NEWS WAS PRESIDENT BIDEN SITTING DOWN WITH PRESIDENT XI AND DECIDING TO RESTART A LOT OF THE TALKS ABOUT CLIMATE.

WE’VE BEEN IN A REALLY CHALLENGING SITUATION WITH CHINA OVER TAIWAN, TRADE ISSUES.

DO YOU THINK WE NEED TO RECALIBRATE AND LOOK AT THE BIGGER ISSUES AND MAYBE PERHAPS RECALIBRATE THAT RELATIONSHIP SO WE CAN ALL FOCUS ON CLIMATE?

WELL, I THINK CLIMATE IS AN ISSUE THAT CAN BRING THE U.S.

AND CHINA CLOSER TOGETHER IN THEIR ASPIRATIONS FOR THE FUTURE.

YOU KNOW, CHINA HAS BEEN HIT VERY HARD BY THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

THIS PAST SUMMER THEY WENT FOR 70 DAYS WITH TEMPERATURES ABOVE 40 DEGREES CELSIUS, 104 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT, OVER A VAST SWATH OF THE COUNTRY.

AND THE CLIMATE HISTORIANS NOTED THAT THERE’S NOTHING EVEN MINIMALLY COMPARABLE IN ALL OF WORLD HISTORY TO THAT HEAT WAVE.

THEY’VE ALSO HAD THESE MASSIVE DOWNPOURS, OR RAIN BOMBS, AND MANY OTHER IMPACTS.

THE SEA LEVEL INCREASES ARE THREATENING A HUGE AREA, PARTICULARLY AROUND SHANGHAI AND AROUND GUANGZHOU.

AND SO CHINA HAS ITS OWN SELF-INTEREST IN TRYING TO HELP THE WORLD COMMUNITY SOLVE THIS CRISIS.

AND OF COURSE THE U.S. AND EVERY OTHER NATION DO AS WELL.

BUT THE CONFLICTS YOU MENTIONED ACTUALLY CAN BE TRANSCENDED BY THE WORK THAT THE TWO LARGEST EMITTERS, THE TWO LARGEST ECONOMIES HAVE TO DO TOGETHER IN ORDER TO HELP THE WORLD GET OUT OF THIS MESS.

YOU’RE VERY FAMOUS, OF COURSE, FOR BEING ONE OF THE EARLY PIONEERS AND WARNING ABOUT THIS WITH ‘AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH.’

BUT I ALSO THINK OF YOU AS SOMEBODY WHO’S BEEN A SCIENCE GEEK ALL AROUND.

YOU KNOW, SPACE, INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY.

FOR YEARS YOU’VE BEEN THAT — THEY SEEM TO TIE TOGETHER WITH SOMETHING YOU ANNOUNCED IN EGYPT, WHICH IS CLIMATE TRACE.

TELL ME WHAT THAT’S ABOUT.

OH, THANK YOU FOR ASKING.

I AM SUPER EXCITED ABOUT THIS NEW DEVELOPMENT.

THERE’S A COALITION OF TEN INDEPENDENT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE GROUPS, DATA RESEARCHERS, UNIVERSITIES, NGOs THAT HAVE COME TOGETHER TO USE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND MACHINE LEARNING AND SENSORS BASED ON AIR, LAND, AND SEA AND INTERNET DATA STREAMS TO ACCURATELY IDENTIFY ALL OF THE POINT SOURCE SIGNIFICANT EMISSIONS OF GREENHOUSE GAS POLLUTION ALL OVER THE PLANET.

THAT HAS NOT BEEN POSSIBLE IN THE PAST BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN USE SATELLITES TO LOOK DOWN AT METHANE EMISSIONS, YOU CAN’T SEE THE WHOLE EARTH WITH THE KINDS OF SATELLITES THAT MEASURE METHANE BUT YOU CAN SEE IT.

WITH CO2 YOU’RE LOOKING DOWN THROUGH A COLUMN OF AIR THAT’S SO ENRICHED WITH CO2 THAT THE SO-CALLED SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO JUST SEE IT CHEMICALLY.

BUT IF YOU USE ALL THE WAVELENGTHS AND MEASURE THE INFRARED HEAT SIGNATURE, THE SMOKE PLUMES, THE RIPPLES OF WATER IN THE COOLING POND, HOW MANY FAN BLADES IN THE COOLING FANS ARE OPERATING, THE DATA STREAMS FOR THE YOFR TAKE OF ELECTRICITY AND OTHER SOURCES OF INFORMATION, YOU CAN FIT THOSE TOGETHER INTO MACHINE LEARNING ALGORITHMS THAT ARE INCREDIBLY ACCURATE IN PINPOINTING WHERE THE POLLUTION IS ACTUALLY COMING FROM, EXACTLY HOW MUCH IS COMING FROM WHICH AND WHAT THE TREND IS OVER TIME.

WE GET FROM ALL THE WAVELENGTHS FROM 300 EXISTING SATELLITES FROM THE U.S., EUROPE, BRAZIL, CHINA, INDIA, GERMANY, AND CANADA WE SEE THE ENTIRE EARTH’S SURFACE MULTIPLE TIMES EVERY DAY AND WE CAN USE ALL OF THAT — THOSE DIFFERENT SOURCES OF INFORMATION TO REALLY IDENTIFY AND TRACK THE EMISSIONS.

BUT NOW WE CAN APPORTION IT CORRECTLY.

WE FOUND, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY HAS UNDERREPORTED THEIR EMISSIONS.

THEIR EMISSIONS ARE ACTUALLY THREE TIMES HIGHER THAN WHAT THEY HAVE REPORTED TO THE U.N.

AND THE OLD SAYING YOU CAN ONLY MANAGE WHAT YOU CAN MEASURE APPLIES HERE BECAUSE MOST OF THE EMISSIONS COME FROM COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PLEDGED TO GET TO NET ZERO BY 2050.

HERE’S HOW THEY CAN DO IT.

WE CAN IDENTIFY THOSE SITES PRECISELY.

AND FOR COMPANIES THAT HAVE PLEDGED TO GET TO NET ZERO WE CAN SHOW THEM HOW THEY CAN BUY THE SAME STEEL AND THE SAME AMOUNTS FROM A SUPPLIER WHO HAS 1/10 OF THE GLOBAL WARMING POLLUTION OF A SUPPLIER THAT THEY MIGHT BE USING NOW, AND THERE ARE HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF SIMILAR EXAMPLES.

SO YOU COULD TAKE THIS DATA AND CAN YOU PINPOINT IT DIRECTLY LIKE TO ONE STEEL PLANT OR ONE OIL REFINERY HERE IN LOUISIANA OR SOMETHING AND SAY THIS PARTICULAR PLANT IS DOING THIS MUCH POLLUTION?

ABSOLUTELY.

AND IT’S VERY, VERY EXCITING.

WE HAVE STARTED WITH THE LARGEST 72,000 PLUS, THE LARGEST EMISSION SITES AROUND THE WORLD.

BY NEXT YEAR WE’LL HAVE MILLIONS, AND ESSENTIALLY ALL OF THEM.

WE WON’T HAVE THE BACK YARD BARBECUES.

THERE’S A LONG TAIL.

BUT WE’LL HAVE 99% OF THE EMISSIONS IDENTIFIED TO WHERE THEY’RE COMING FROM.

AND NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE THE SPECIFIC PLANT, WE CAN SHOW YOU THE DIFFERENT PARTS OF EACH PLANT, THE SO-CALLED META DATA OR WHAT THE TECHNOLOGY IS, AND WHO OWNS IT.

WE HAVE OWNERSHIP DATA FOR ALMOST ALL OF THEM.

AND WE ARE SEEING OTHERS SEND US MORE INFORMATION THAT WE’RE VERIFYING, SINCE THE RELEASE LAST WEEK WE’VE BEEN DELUGED WITH INCREDIBLE AMOUNTS OF NEW DATA.

AND IN THE NATURE OF MACHINE LEARNING, THE MORE DATA THE MORE ACCURATE IT BECOMES.

ONE OTHER POINT, THEY CAN’T CHEAT WITH THIS.

THERE’S NO WAY TO CHEAT BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE TO FALSIFY MULTIPLE DIFFERENT DATA SETS FROM MULTIPLE DOMAINS.

IT’S ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.

SO WE HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY AND IDENTIFICATION FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.

IS YOUR GOAL WITH CLIMATE TRACE TO SHAME SOME OF THE COMPANIES, AND HOW WOULD THAT WORK?

WE’RE JUST PROVIDING THE FACTS.

WE’RE NOT THE CLIMATE COPS.

WE’RE A LITTLE BIT SIMILAR TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH ORGANIZATION.

OUR NEIGHBORHOOD’S THE GLOBE.

AND IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO USE IT TO NAME AND SHAME WE CAN’T PREVENT THEM FROM THAT.

BUT I THINK THE HIGHEST AND BEST USE OF THIS INFORMATION IS TO IDENTIFY THE OPPORTUNITIES TO EASILY REDUCE EMISSIONS WITHOUT HURTING PRODUCTIVITY OR PROFITABILITY.

WE CAN DO THAT RIGHT AWAY.

SO YOU THINK YOU MAY BE ABLE TO WORK WITH THESE COMPANIES IF YOU’RE ABLE TO IDENTIFY IT AS OPPOSED TO JUST SHAMING.

THEY CAN BE A CARROT AND A STICK?

NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

TAKE STEEL, FOR EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE COMPANIES THAT USE ELECTRIC FURNACES INSTEAD OF BLAST FURNACES.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FULL SPECTRUM — AND IT’S ALL AVAILABLE ON THE CLIMATETRACE.ORG WEBSITE BY THE WAY.

YOU CAN FIND THE SAME QUALITY STEEL, SAME KIND FROM A COMPANY WHOSE EMISSIONS WILL BE LESS THAN 1/10 OF THE EMISSIONS THAT COME WITH A SUPPLIER THAT YOU MAY NOW BE USING.

MOST OF THESE MANUFACTURERS HAVE EXCESS CAPACITY.

THEY CAN SERVE MORE CUSTOMERS WITH LOWER EMISSIONS.

AND THE ONES THAT LOSE CUSTOMERS WITH THE HIGH EMISSIONS WILL BE CHALLENGED.

NOT NECESSARILY NAMED AND SHAMED BUT CHALLENGED.

CHANGE THEIR TECHNOLOGY AND CHANGE THEIR BUSINESS MODEL.

I THINK YOU MADE A DEAL WITH ONE OF THE GOVERNMENT ENTITIES IN MEXICO, FOR EXAMPLE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

WELL, THERE ARE ACTUALLY TWO CITIES IN MEXICO, ONE IN THE WESTERN CAPE REGION OF SOUTH AFRICA, TWO IN EUROPE, SIX OVERALL, AND WE CUT IT OFF AT SIX BECAUSE WE WERE FOCUSED ON THE LAUNCH AT THE UNITED NATIONS CONFERENCE IN EGYPT AND WE DECIDED TO SIGN UP SIX SUBNATIONAL GOVERNMENTS AS A KIND OF A TRIAL RUN.

THEY LOVE IT.

THEY’RE BASING POLICY ON IT.

BUT WE ARE GOING TO OPEN IT UP IN THE NEW YEAR TO ANY MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT, STATE, PROVINCIAL REGIONAL GOVERNMENT AND ANY NATION STATE THAT ASKS FOR OUR HELP, WE’LL DO IT ALL FOR FREE.

AND WE WILL ASSIST THEM IN IDENTIFYING EXACTLY WHERE THEY CAN REDUCE EMISSIONS.

YOU SPOKE OF THE WORLD BANK AS BEING PART OF A FOSSIL FUEL COLONIALISM.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WORLD BANK SHOULD DO?

WELL, THE WORLD BANK AND THE OTHER MULTILATERAL DEVELOPMENT BANKS THAT ARE PART OF THAT SYSTEM, WHAT IT’S SUPPOSED TO DO IS TO OPEN UP ACCESS FOR DEVELOPING COUNTRIES TO THE PRIVATE CAPITAL MARKETS.

AT PRESENT IF YOU ARE IN NIGERIA AND YOU WANT TO BUILD A NEW SOLAR FARM IT MAKES EMINENT ECONOMIC SENSE.

IT’S GOING TO BE PROFITABLE.

THE CHEAPEST SOURCE OF ELECTRICITY.

BUT YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY AN INTEREST RATE SEVEN TIMES HIGHER THAN THE INTEREST RATE PAID IN THE DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, THE U.S., EUROPE, OECD.

WHY?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE POLITICAL RISK.

RULE OF LAW RISK.

CORRUPTION RISK.

CLIMATE RISK.

SEVERAL OTHER LAYERS OF RISK IN THESE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES THAT THE PRIVATE MARKETS ARE LEERY OF.

THE ROLE OF THE WORLD BANK IS SUPPOSED TO BE TO TAKE THOSE TOP LAYERS OF RISK OFF THE TOP SO THAT THESE COUNTRIES CAN COMPETE FOR INTEREST RATES THAT ARE COMPETITIVE.

SO THAT THEY CAN MOVE FORWARD IN THEIR ECONOMIES.

BUT IP STEAD THE WORLD BANK HAS NOT BEEN DOING ITS JOB.

THEY’VE ACTUALLY BEEN SUPPORTING MORE FOSSIL FUEL.

AND IT’S NUTS.

AND THE PERSON WHO — THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENT APPOINTED TO RUN THE WORLD BANK IS A CLIMATE DENIER.

HE RAN FOR CONGRESS AS A CLIMATE DENIER.

HAS A LONG HISTORY OF STATEMENTS.

HE’S NOW SAYING OH, NO, I’M NOT.

WELL, OKAY.

BUT WE NEED NEW LEADERSHIP.

IS BIDEN ABLE TO CHANGE THE PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD BANK AND PUSH IT?

HE COULD.

AND SHOULD HE?

AND WHO SHOULD HE APPOINT?

YEAH, HE SHOULD PUSH IT.

THE HEAD OF THE WORLD BANK IS A POSITION THAT HAS TRADITIONALLY BEEN FILLED BY THE U.S.

THAT’S AN INFORMAL AGREEMENT SINCE WORLD WAR II.

AND EVERY ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN RELUCTANT TO LOSE THAT PRIVILEGE.

AND SO THEY’RE RELUCTANT TO CHANGE HORSES — TO CHANGE HEADS IN THE MIDDLE OF A TERM.

BUT NOTHING COULD JEOPARDIZE THE U.S. HOLD ON THAT POSITION MORE POLICIES IN THE WORLD BANK.

THE VOTES OF THE SHAREHOLDERS ARE NECESSARY AND THE U.S. CAN’T DO IT UNILATERALLY, BUT GERMANY HAS COME OUT IN FAVOR OF CHANGING THE WORLD BANK HEAD.

AUSTRALIA HAS AS WELL.

SEVERAL OTHER COUNTRIES.

WE HAVE THE VOTES.

AND I’M HOPEFUL THAT THEY WILL GET RID OF THIS CURRENT HEAD OF THE WORLD BANK, PUT A NEW PERSON IN, AND MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE HEAD OF THE WORLD BANK IS TO BROADEN THE MANDATE TO GIVE THEM MORE LEVERAGE, THAT IS, TO COME UP WITH TERMS THAT ALLOW THEM TO LOAN MONEY IN A WAY THAT BRINGS IN LOTS MORE PRIVATE CAPITAL ALONG WITH IT.

THAT’S AGAIN WHAT IT SHOULD BE DOING.

THE PROBLEM IS — LOOK AT IT THIS WAY.

I MENTIONED ALL OF THOSE ELECTRICITY PLANTS INSTALLED WORLDWIDE.

90% OF THEM WERE RENEWABLE LAST YEAR.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THEY WENT, MOSTLY TO THE RICH COUNTRIES.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE ONES IN THE U.S. AND CANADA, 96% OF THE MONEY TO BUILD THEM CAME FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

IN AFRICA ONLY 14% OF THE MONEY COMES FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE ACCESS TO THESE MARKETS.

AND WHEN THEY DEPEND ON GOVERNMENT MONEY IT MAKES THEM MORE VULNERABLE TO THESE STATE-OWNED ENTERPRISES THAT ARE IN THE POCKETS OF THE FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES AND THERE ARE SOMETIMES CORRUPT RELATIONSHIPS AND THEY CAN — THEY CAN KEEP GOING FORWARD WITH FOSSIL FUELS AND THERE IS A SO-CALLED DASH FOR GAS IN AFRICA NOW, AND IT’S FOSSIL FUEL COLONIALISM BECAUSE THE RESOURCES THAT ARE DEVELOPED ARE INTENDED TO GO STRAIGHT TO EUROPE AND STRAIGHT TO ASIA.

THEY DON’T BENEFIT THE PEOPLE OF AFRICA.

THEY LEAVE THEM WITH WHAT WILL BECOME STRANDED ASSETS BECAUSE THE FOSSIL FUEL FACILITIES ARE NO LONGER COMPETITIVE NOW AND AS YEARS GO BY THEY’RE GOING TO BE LESS AND LESS COMPETITIVE.

AND IT LEAVES THEM WITH CLIMATE CHAOS.

SO LESS, IT’S FOSSIL FUEL COLONIALISM.

ONE LNG EXPORT TERMINAL IN AFRICA WOULD COST ABOUT $25 BILLION.

YOU COULD PRETTY WELL PUT RENEWABLE ENERGY ALL ACROSS THE CONTINENT FOR THAT.

ONE OF THE TOPICS OF THE COP27 THAT YOU JUST CAME BACK FROM, THE CLIMATE CHANGE SUMMIT, WAS I THINK IT’S CALLED LOSS AND DAMAGE, WHICH IN SOME WAYS IS LIKE A REPARATION TO THE COUNTRIES THAT WERE HURT BY CLIMATE CHANGE.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT, I DON’T KNOW, IS POSSIBLE POLITICALLY?

I THINK EVEN SENATOR KERRY WAS NOT TOO ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT IT.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK.

WELL, I SYMPATHIZE WITH JOHN KERRY’S RESPONSE ON THIS BECAUSE HE HAS TO BRIDGE THE GAP BETWEEN THE JUST ASPIRATIONS OF THESE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES AND THE VERY DIFFICULT POLITICAL SITUATION IN THE WEALTHY COUNTRIES.

THEY DON’T WANT TO HEAR — THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES DON’T WANT TO HEAR US TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT OUR POLITICS ARE.

BUT IT’S REALITY.

IS THERE SOME VALIDITY TO THAT?

IF YOU’RE ASKING ME MY OPINION, I AM IN FAVOR OF PAYMENTS FOR LOSS AND DAMAGE.

I THINK IT’S MORALLY JUSTIFIED.

SOME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE ALREADY SIGNED UP TO IT.

BUT IS IT JUSTIFIED TO POINT TO THE REALISTIC POLITICAL OBSTACLE?

SURE, IT IS.

AGAIN, THAT DOESN’T HELP US, YOU KNOW, MAKE THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE SUFFERING UNDERSTAND ANY BETTER.

BUT LOSS AND DAMAGE IS LAYERED ON TOP OF A JUSTIFIABLE DEMAND FOR ADAPTATION FUNDING.

YOU MAY REMEMBER THAT FOR THE LAST 10 OR 15 YEARS THERE HAS BEEN A $100 PLEDGE BY THE WEALTHY COUNTRIES TO HELP POOR COUNTRIES WITH ADAPTATION TO THOSE PLEDGES HAVEN’T BEEN KEPT EITHER.

SO IT KIND OF WIDENS THE DIVIDE BETWEEN THE WAY DEVELOPING COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND THE WAY THE WEALTHY COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING AT IT.

THE WAY TO FILL THAT GAP IS TO SAY LOOK, THE AMOUNTS THAT WILL EVER COME GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT, AS JUSTIFIED AS THEY ARE, AND AGAIN, I’M FOR IT, BUT THEY’RE GOING TO BE DWARFED BY THE AMOUNTS THAT SHOULD BE FLOWING FROM PRIVATE SOURCES BECAUSE WE’RE IN THE EARLY STAGES OF A GLOBAL SUSTAINABILITY REVOLUTION, POWERED BY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND MACHINE LEARNING AND DISTRIBUTED SUPER COMPUTING AND THE BIOLOGY REVOLUTION.

THIS REVOLUTION HAS THE SCALE OF THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION COUPLED WITH THE SPEED OF THE DIGITAL REVOLUTION.

AND AFRICA AND THE OTHER DEVELOPING PARTS OF OUR WORLD WILL BENEFIT ENORMOUSLY FROM THIS.

YOU KNOW, THEY LEAPFROGGED THE LANDLINE TELEPHONE NETWORKS THAT WE RELY ON AND WENT STRAIGHT TO MOBILE.

IT’S A SIMILAR SITUATION.

THEY CAN LEAPFROG THE OLD DIRTY POISONOUS SOURCES OF ENERGY IN THE PAST AND GO STRAIGHT TO THE CHEAPEST ENERGY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL ENERGY AGENCY AND OTHERS.

BUT THEY NEED ACCESS TO CAPITAL IN ORDER TO ENTER THE MARKETPLACE AND INVOLVE THEMSELVES IN THIS REVOLUTION.

VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.