WITH THE 2024 U.S. PRESIDENTIAL RACE WELL UNDERWAY, DEMOCRACY CONTINUES TO BE TESTED.

TRUMP'S LATEST INDICTMENT GETS TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER.

WHAT WILL BE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR A SITTING PRESIDENT WHO SPREAD LIES ABOUT THE ELECTION AND ATTEMPTED TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS?

WE HAVE A COMMON LIST FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES.

WE ARE ASSESSING THE CURRENT STATE OF U.S.

POLITICS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING SOME TOUGH COLUMNS IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT TRUMP IN THE INDICTMENT.

WITH ALL OF THESE INDICTMENTS, STILL MORE THAN 50% OF REPUBLICANS SAY THEY WILL SUPPORT THEM AND YOU SAY HE IS LIKELY TO BECOME THE NOMINEE.

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

>> THE ANSWER TO THAT LIES WITH THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON THE CAPITAL.

AS SOON AS MOST REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS SAID THEY WERE GOING TO RALLY AROUND IT, THAT WAS IT.

AS SOON IT WAS CLEAR THE REPUBLICANS, IN THE SENATE, DID NOT HAVE THE STOMACH TO VOTE TO CONVICT HIM IN THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, YOU HAVE ESSENTIALLY SET UP THE CONDITIONS FOR HIM TO ROCKET BACK TO THE TOP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS THE DE FACTO LEADER.

THERE IS NO SERIOUS EFFORT IN THE WAKE OF JANUARY 6th TO REALLY REMOVE TRUMP FROM THAT POSITION.

SO, IN THE ABSENCE OF THAT EFFORT AND IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY SERIOUS ALTERNATIVE TO TRUMP FOR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, YOU WILL JUST HAVE TRUMP.

>> THERE HAS TO BE A DEEPER REASON.

REPUBLICANS WOULD BE DOING THIS IF THEY DIDN'T FEEL SOME FEELING THAT TRUMP HAS A STRANGLEHOLD ON THEIR PARTY.

WHY DOES HE HAVE THAT?

WAS A DEEPER REASON?

>> I DON'T THINK THE DEEPER REASONS ARE ALL THAT COMPLICATED.

THERE ARE DEEPER REASONS FOR THE EMERGENT OF TRUMP BUT IN TERMS OF HIS HOLD ON REPUBLICAN PARTY, IT IS BASICALLY TWO THINGS.

TRUMP WON.

HE WON THE 2016 ELECTION.

HE DID NOT WIN A POPULAR VOTE VICTORY BUT HE WON THE PRESIDENCY AND WAS A THORN IN THE SIDE OF LIBERALS AND DEMOCRATS AND ANY OTHER AMERICANS FOR THOSE FOUR YEARS.

BOTH THE WINNING AND, TO THE EXTENT, THE CARMEN PARLANCE, OWNED THE LIBS, REALLY ENDEARED HIM TO A LOT OF REPUBLICANS.

HE ESSENTIALLY RESHAPE ITSELF AROUND TRUMP.

THE INTERESTING THING, TRUMP HAS BOTH BEEN ELECTORAL POISON FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BEGINNING IN 2018.

IT IS HIM LOSING CONSECUTIVE NATIONAL ELECTIONS.

BUT FOR MANY REPUBLICANS, THEY DON'T REALLY SEE THE ALTERNATIVE, GIVEN THAT TRUMP, EVEN WHILE LOSING HAS GENERATED MASSIVE TURNOUT AMONGST THE PROPENSITY REPUBLICAN VOTES.

A HUGE TREVELIN TURNOUT THAT NO PRIOR REPUBLICAN NOMINEE HAS BEEN ABLE TO GENERATE WHICH I THINK, IN TERMS OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE LOOKING AT THIS IN HOW TO WIN PURE ELECTRICAL STRATEGY KEY THEY SEE TRUMP AS THEIR BEST BET.

THE WAY THE PARTY CULTURALLY RESHAPED ITSELF AROUND TRUMP, DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, WE HAVE THE INGREDIENTS FOR THE DOMINATION WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW AMONGST REPUBLICANS.

>> AND YOU SAY THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVES.

OF COURSE, A COUPLE PEOPLE LIKE CHRIS CHRISTIE AND IDA HUTCHISON ARE TRYING TO TAKE TRUMP ON DIRECTLY.

SOME, LITTLE BIT SO, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

BUT, NOBODY HAS BEEN ABLE TO GET ANY TRACTION, INCLUDING THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO SUPPORT TRUMP AND EIGHT SMALL WAY LIKE RON DeSANTIS.

WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THAT?

>> AGAIN, I REALLY THINK THAT SO MUCH, NOT JUST THIS CURRENT SITUATION WITH TRUMP, LIKELY WINNING THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, BUT GOING BACK TO 2016 IS A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM AMONG REPUBLICAN ELITISTS.

BASICALLY, THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING NOW.

YOU HAD A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM, REPUBLICANS, AFTER JANUARY 6th.

THEY HAD THIS CLEARLY TRANSGRESSIVE PRESIDENT HE DID SOMETHING UNPRECEDENTED IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO KNOCK HIM OUT OF POLITICS FOR THE DURATION IF WE VOTE TO CONVICT IN THIS IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

BUT, REPUBLICAN OFFICER HOLDERS COULDN'T FIGURE OUT A WAY TO COME TOGETHER AND MAKE THAT RESULT HAPPEN.

THEY DEFERRED IT.

MAYBE DEMOCRATS WILL BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT.

THE CORE ISSUE, OR REPUBLICANS, AT NO POINT HAVE THEY EVER REALLY TRIED TO JETTISON TRUMP FROM THEIR ORBIT.

AND, BECAUSE OF HIS SOLID, ROCKSOLID CORE OF SUPPORT, AMONGST REPUBLICANS, THIS ESSENTIALLY GIVES HIM A PLATFORM BY WHICH TO MAKE A BID FOR CONTROLLING THE PARTY.

THIS IS WHAT HE'S DOING.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS LATEST INDICTMENT.

THE THIRD INDICTMENT AND THE ONE THAT THIS SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, JACK SMITH, HAS BROUGHT.

YOU TALKED ABOUT READING THAT INDICTMENT.

THERE WERE PARTS OF IT THAT LEAPT OUT YOU SAY, IN YOUR COLUMN, INCLUDING AN EXCHANGE EVOLVING PATRICK PHILBIN.

EXPLAIN, HE WAS THE DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL.

EXPLAIN WHY THAT LEAPT OUT TO YOU?

>> THAT LEAPT OUT TO ME BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS PROFOUNDLY DISTURBING.

IT WAS ANNEXED LIKELY, WILL CONSIST OF WHAT HAPPENS IF THE WHITE HOUSE WERE ABLE TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION.

AND THE FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL SAID LISTEN IF WE DO THIS, THERE'S GOING TO BE RIOTS IN EVERY CITY IN AMERICA.

AND THE OFFICIAL WHOM HE SPEAKING, COKE CONSPIRATOR FOR SAYS WELL THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE INSURRECTION ACT.

AND, A CASUAL READER MAY NOT RECOGNIZE WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE PREVIOUS YEAR, THE ADMINISTRATION HAD WANTED TO USE THE INSURRECTION ACT, BASICALLY TO USE MILITARY FORCE TO PUT DOWN PROTESTS RELATED TO THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD.

AND IN THAT EXCHANGE, YOU GET THE SENSE THAT WAS BEING CONTEMPLATED IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN THE DAYS BEFORE JANUARY 6, WAS BOTH OVERTURNING THE ELECTION AND THEN ONCE AMERICANS UNDERSTANDABLY BEGIN PROTESTING, SENDING IN THE MILITARY TO USE FORCE, POTENTIALLY LETHAL FORCE TO PUT DOWN THE PROTEST.

AND TO ME, WHAT I WROTE IS IT DEMONSTRATES JUST A PROFOUND CONTEMPT FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

FOR AMERICA'S DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS.

FOR THE VERY IDEA OF POPULAR, SELF-GOVERNMENT.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT RECONSTRUCTING, YOU TALK ABOUT THE INSURRECTION ACT AND EVEN THE LAW UNDER WHICH TRUMP HAS BEEN CHARGED.

IT DATES BACK TO RECONSTRUCTION.

EXPLAIN THAT AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THE ECHOES OF RECONSTRUCTION OR MAYBE THEY PERVERSE ECHOES OF RECONSTRUCTION ARE TODAY?

>> THE STATUTE THAT TRUMP IS BEING CHARGED UNDER COMES FROM THE KU KLUX KLAN PLAN ACT OF 1870.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE ACTS PASSED IN 1870 AND 1871 BY THE REPUBLICANS.

IT PROVIDES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THE TOOLS NECESSARY TO CONVICT OR PROSECUTE PEOPLE ACCUSED OF ATTACKING FREE BLACKS TRYING TO EXERCISE THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

THE STATUTE SAYS IT IS A CRIME TO INTERFERE WITH THE EXERCISE OF SOMEONE'S CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED RIGHTS.

I THINK THE ECHOES ARE KIND OF CLEAR.

THE INTERVIEW AND EXERCISE OF PEOPLE'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS IN THE 1860S AND EARLY 1870S, WAS NOT JUST ATTACKING VOTERS AND PREVENTING THEM FROM VOTING AND CASTING A BALLOT.

THEY ARE REALLY ATTACKING ELECTED GOVERNMENTS.

THE RECONSTRUCTION GOVERNMENTS THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH BASED VIOLENT ATTACKS FROM FORMER CONFEDERATES, FROM MEMBERS OF THESE VIGILANTE GROUPS LIKE THE KU KLUX KLAN PLAN AND THE KNIGHTS OF THE WHITE LOTUS.

THERE WERE A BUNCH OF THEM.

THIS IS A CLEAR THING.

DO KU KLUX KLAN ACT WAS PASSED TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY IN THE SOUTH AND IT IS BEING USED, PART OF IT IS BEING USED TODAY TO DEFEND ONE OF THE INSTITUTIONS OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE LATEST INDICTMENTS, THERE BEEN THREE OF THEM AND THERE MAY BE A FOURTH RON FROM GEORGIA.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DIDN'T DO MUCH, THEY DIDN'T REALLY PUSH A CASE THAT HARD UNTIL, THE PAST FEW MONTHS, WE'VE HAD THESE INDICTMENTS.

IN SOME WAYS, THERE IS A LOT OF PUSHBACK, ESPECIALLY FROM REPUBLICANS, THAT THIS IS WEAPONIZE AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

THAT THIS SHOULD BE DECIDED AT THE POLLS AND THIS IS GOING TO OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS IF WE START INDICTING FORMER PRESIDENTS.

WHAT YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I THINK IT WILL OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS IF IT BECOMES A NORM FOR OUTGOING PRESIDENTS TO ATTEMPT TO SEIZE POWER AGAINST THE WILL OF THE VOTERS.

IT WILL OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS AND A BAD ONE.

I THINK IT WILL HAVE MUCH MORE TO DO WITH THE ATTEMPTED CRUISE AND THE PROSECUTION TO BE PERFECTLY SERIOUS, I THINK THIS IS A RIDICULOUS COMPLAINT.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, RATHER THAN ACCEPT THE TRADITION OF THE UNITED STATES GOING BACK TO THE ELECTION OF 1800, GOING BACK TO OUR FIRST REAL, HIGHLY CONTESTED AND PARTISAN ELECTION WHICH IS FOR THE LOSER TO PEACEFULLY HANDOVER POWER.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, REJECTED THAT.

HE ATTEMPTED TO SUBVERT IT AND DID SO BY INCITING SUPPORTERS TO ATTACK THE CAPITAL AND BY ORGANIZING, WITH CLOSE A's AND OTHER SUPPORTERS, TO TRY TO SUBVERT THE PROCESS OF COUNTING VOTES AND COUNTY ELECTORS.

THAT TO ME IS MORE THAN WORTHY OF PROSECUTION, BOTH FOR ITS OWN SAKE THAT IT IS WRONG AND FORCED RETURN VALUE.

TO TELL FUTURE OFFICEHOLDERS WHO MAY BE IN THE POSITION OF LOSING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION THAT YOU CANNOT DO THIS.

THIS IS ACTUALLY HIM HIM A CALL TO WHAT WE THINK AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS.

IF MANY REPUBLICANS WEREN'T SO COMMITTED TO DEFENDING TRUMP AGAINST ALL CHARGES, THEY WOULD RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS SIMPLY NOT A PRECEDENT YOU WANT TO ESTABLISH.

THE BALLOT BOX IS NOT THE PLACE TO HANDLE THIS.

WE HANDLE TRUMP AT THE BALLOT BOX AND HE LOST.

THE FACT HE REJECTED THAT LOSS IS WHAT WE ARE RESPONDING TO.

>> THE EFFECTS OF THESE INDICTMENTS, HOWEVER, HAVE BEEN TO RALLY, IT SEEMS, REPUBLICANS TO THE SIDE OF TRUMP.

IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE HE'S GONE UP IN THE POLLS AFTER THESE INDICTMENTS.

AFTER IT SEEMS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING AFTER HIM.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS BACKLASH IS A CONSEQUENCE?

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW WE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS RALLYING AROUND TRUMP, AS LONG AS REPUBLICAN OFFICEHOLDERS AND REPUBLICAN ELITES AND THE REPUBLICAN ESTABLISHMENT IS WILLING TO SUPPORT AND BACK TRUMP.

I GUESS I'M REPEATING MYSELF A LITTLE BIT.

BUT THAT IS THE CRITICAL VARIABLE.

IF HIGH-LEVEL REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS HAD RESPONDED TO THE INDICTMENT BY SAYING THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD SEE THE SAME RALLY AFFECT.

AFTER THE 2022 MIDTERM ELECTIONS, THERE IS ABOUT A WEEK OR TWO WEEK PERIOD WHERE AFTER THIS SURPRISING LOSS IN THE SENATE, AND THE SNEER LOST IN THE HOUSE, REPUBLICANS WERE OPENLY TALKING ABOUT HOW TRUMP WAS A POOR LOSER.

HOW HE NEEDED TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE FOR THE PARTY.

HOW THEY NEEDED TO MOVE PAST TRUMP.

WHAT DO WE SEE?

IT BEGAN TO DECLINE.

IT BEGAN TO CLIMB BECAUSE VOTERS TOOK THE SIGNAL.

THE ONLY WAY WE COULD'VE AVOIDED THIS BACKLASH IS FOR REPUBLICAN OFFICEHOLDERS TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST TRUMP.

AND THE IDEA, THE OPTIMAL POINT TO HAVE DONE THAT WAS RIGHT AFTER JANUARY 6.

IT WAS A SLIM PERIOD OF TIME WHERE THAT WAS A CRITICAL MOMENT FOR REPUBLICAN OFFICEHOLDERS TO, YOU KNOW, DOES THEIR HANDS OF TRUMP ONCE AND FOR ALL AND MOVE ON.

ONCE THEY DECIDED NOT TO DO THAT, I THINK THEY SET IN MOTION THIS CURRENT CHAIN OF EVENTS.

>> YOU SAY THAT IT IS DIFFICULT FOR AMERICANS TO REALLY BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY, AS WE KNOW IT, COULD BE IN TROUBLE.

WHY ARE AMERICANS HAVING A ISSUE UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY?

>> I THINK IT IS PARTIALLY A PRODUCT OF OUR GOOD FORTUNE YOU MIGHT SAY.

I MENTIONED EARLIER THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN MAKING THESE PEACEFUL TRANSFERS OF POWER SINCE THE 1800s.

WE HAVE THE OLDEST CONTINUING OPERATING CONSTITUTION AMONG THE DEMOCRACIES.

WE ARE THE OLDEST DEMOCRACY IF YOU WANT TO USE THAT TERM BROADLY.

AT LEAST THE OLDEST COUNTRY WHERE THE GOVERNMENT IS DETERMINED BY SOME DEGREE OF POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY.

I THINK WE HAVE GOTTEN USED TO THIS IDEA THAT THIS IS THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE.

BUT IT'S NOT.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME AMERICANS, NOT JUST IMMIGRANTS, RECENTLY OR OTHERWISE FROM COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN ALL THIRDHAND STATES OR AUTOCRACIES.

THEY ARE PUTTING AMERICANS, THAT HAVE A VERY REAL RECOGNITION THAT DEMOCRACY IS NOT GUARANTEED.

BLACK AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY TO GO BACK TO RECONSTRUCTION, THEY EXPERIENCE DEMOCRACY FOR SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AND THEN LOST IT FOR NEARLY A CENTURY.

AND, THEY ARE CONTINUOUSLY WORKING AND FIGHTING TO ENSURE THEIR ABILITY TO PARTICIPATE IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS NOT RESTRICTED.

WE HAVE THIS HOMEGROWN EXPERIENCE WITH AUTOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS, WITH AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS, WITH THE TAX ON DEMOCRACY.

I THINK ISSUED IN FORM OUR SENSE OF ACTUALLY HOW DURABLE THE AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC EXPERIMENT IS.

IT IS NOT AS DURABLE AS WE'D LIKE TO THINK AND REQUIRES REAL VIGILANCE TO PROTECT IT.

>> THIS SET OF INDICTMENTS ABOUT TRUMP SEEMS TO PLAY INTO SOMETHING LARGER, WHICH IS A REAL DEEP DIVISION, UNDERLYING DIVISIONS IN OUR SOCIETY, BASED ON RESENTMENT.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE OUTCOME OF THIS SITUATION, WHETHER OR NOT HE GETS CONVICTED, OR ACQUITTED OR PARDONED, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT WILL PLAY INTO THE DIVISIONS AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO HEAL SOME OF THOSE DIVISIONS?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS A QUESTION I'M NOT SURE I REALLY HAVE A GREAT ANSWER FOR.

MY VIEW OF THE CURRENT SITUATION IS IT WILL BE A LOT OF PUSHING THROUGH.

A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS REJECT THE IDEA OF A PRESIDENT OVERTURNING THE ELECTION.

THEY REJECTED TRUMP TWICE.

AND, IF NEXT YEAR, IT IS TRUMP AND BIDEN AGAIN AND BIDEN WINDS AGAIN, WITH THE MAJORITY OF THE VOTE, THEN THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WILL REJECT HIM AGAIN.

THAT COULD LEAD TO INCREASED DIVISION.

THERE WILL LIKELY BE PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THIS WAS AN UNJUST RESULT.

WHATEVER REASON, TRUMP IS ENTITLED TO POWER.

AND I THINK THE RESPONSE TO THAT WILL HAVE TO BE, PUSH THROUGH IT.

I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE'S SOMETHING WE CAN DO, AT THIS MOMENT, TO BRING IN THOSE AMERICANS, THE VOTERS WHO HAPPENING DEVOTED TO TRUMP'S POLITICAL POWER AND POLITICAL AUTHORITY.

I FEEL LIKE THIS IS A VERY UNSATISFYING ANSWER BUT IT'S THE BEST ONE I HAVE.

SOMETIMES YOU ARE IN A POLITICAL SITUATION WHERE IT'S NOT A TON OF GOOD OPTIONS AND YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR BEST TO WORK THE MATERIALS YOU HAVE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.