>>> THE INTERNET HAS BEEN

REDEFINING POLITICS.

ONCE DISMISSED AS A JOKE, MEMES

WIELD POWER TO ATTACK OPPONENTS

AND ENERGY A BASE.

JOAN DONAVAN AND EMILY DREYFUSS

INVESTIGATE THIS.

THEY DISCUSS THE POWER THEY

WIELD.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION

DAYS AFTER PAUL PELOSI, THE

HUSBAND OF THE SPEAKER OF THE

HOUSE WAS ATTACKED VIOLENTLY IN

HIS HOME.

WE ARE FINDING OUT MORE

INFORMATION ABOUT THE ATTACKER

AND HOW HE SUBSCRIBED TO SO MANY

OF THESE IDEAS ONLINE THAT

PERHAPS LED HIM TO THIS ATTACK.

FIRST I GUESS FOR OUR AUDIENCE,

A CLARIFICATION, WHAT'S THE

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUBSCRIBING

TO AN IDEA AND A MEME?

>> ANY IDEA HAS THE POTENTIAL TO

BECOME A MEME.

BUT IT ONLY BECOMES A MEME IF IT

RESONATES AND CAN GO VIRAL AND

TRAVELS THROUGH CULTURES AND

THROUGH PEOPLE.

ONE OF THE MEMES THAT THIS

ATTACKER, THAT THIS VIOLENT

ATTACKER WE KNOW WAS INTERESTED

IN AND SHARED ONLINE IS A MEME

CALLED, IT'S OKAY TO BE WHITE,

WHICH IS A SLOGAN.

PEOPLE SOMETIMES THINK OF MEMES

AS BEING IMAGES WITH TEXT OVER

THEM ON THE INTERNET.

A POLITICAL MEME, A MEME

PRE-DATES THE INTERNET AND CAN

BE ANYTHING FROM A HASH TAG TO A

PHRASE TO AN IMAGE.

THIS, IT'S OKAY TO BE WHITE

CAMPAIGN THAT THIS PERSON WHO

ATTACKED PAUL PELOSI SUBSCRIBED

TO AND CARED ABOUT, WE LOOKED

INTO IT DEEPLY.

IT WAS A DISINFORMATION

MANIPULATIVE CAMPAIGN LEFT ON

THE INTERNET FOR FOLKS LIKE THIS

PERSON TO FIND AND BE TAKEN DOWN

RADICAL WITH.

IT SEEMS LIKE THIS PERSON, WHO

THEN ENDED UP ATTACKING THE

HUSBAND OF THE SPEAKER OF THE

HOUSE, WAS INSPIRED BY A LOT

THESE MEMES VIA THE INTERNET.

THAT'S WHAT WE TALK ABOUT WHEN

WE TALK ABOUT MEME WARFARE.

>> YOU AND I HAVE SPOKEN ON

MULTIPLE OCCASIONS ABOUT

DIFFERENT CONTROVERSIES, WAYS

THE INTERNET WORKS.

SADLY, WHEN I LOOKED AT YOUR

BOOK, THERE WERE SO MANY

EXAMPLES OF WHAT, I GUESS, WE

COULD CONSIDER, THAT'S JUST THE

INTERNET, TURNING INTO ACTUAL

PHYSICAL VIOLENCE IN THE REAL

WORLD.

ALL THREE OF YOU DO A GREAT JOB

OF DRAWING THOSE CONNECTIONS

BETWEEN WHY IT'S IMPORTANT NOT

JUST TO READ THIS BOOK BUT TO

STUDY WHAT'S HAPPENING AND

REALIZE THAT CONNECTION BETWEEN

THE ONLINE WORLD AND THE OFFLINE

WORLD.

>> YEAH.

TO YOUR POINT, ONE OF THE THINGS

THAT OUR BOOK TRIES TO SHOW IS

THAT THINGS ONLINE DO MATTER.

THEY DO HAVE POLITICAL UPTAKE

AND POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES.

SO WE WANTED TO EXPLAIN TO

PEOPLE HOW MEMEMS INFLUENCING

POLITICAL COMMUNICATION.

IN PARTICULAR, SHOW IT

HISTORICALLY BY USING MEMES AS

SOME OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS IN

THE BOOK.

SO WE BEGIN WITH OCCUPY, WHICH

IS THE OCCUPY WALL STREET

MOVEMENT, WHICH MANY PEOPLE WILL

REMEMBER AS A LEFTIST ANARCHIST

MOVEMENT.

OUR CHAPTER REALLY DELVES INTO

HOW THE RIGHT WING AND THE FAR

RIGHT, AS WELL AS LIBERTARIANS

AND ANARCHISTS, LEARNED HOW TO

USE THE INTERNET TO THEIR

ADVANTAGE TO SPREAD THEIR FRINGE

MESSAGING.

CENTRAL FIGURES IN THAT CHAPTER

ARE UNLIKELY TO APPEAR IN OTHER

OCCUPY HISTORIES, SUCH AS ALEX

JONES, STEVE BANNON, ANDREW

BREITBART AND, OF COURSE, RON

PAUL WHO WAS LEADING A VERY -- A

VERY LARGE ONLINE SOCIAL

MOVEMENT.

WITH OCCUPY, WHAT WE SHOW IS

THAT IDEAS DO MOVE PEOPLE OFF OF

STREETS.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT HAPPEN MANY,

MANY TIMES WITH HASH TAG

MOVEMENTS.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT WHERE THE

BOOK GOES IS WE TRACE HOW PEOPLE

GET TAKEN IN BY LIES AND

DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS AND HOW

MEMES BECOME SO IMPORTANT IN THE

TRANSMISSION OF HATE, HARASSMENT

AND INCITEMENT ONLINE.

SO WE DO A TEN-YEAR HISTORY

STARTING WITH OCCUPY AND ENDING

WITH STOP THE STEAL.

WE BELIEVE THAT THE INTERNET IS

FUNDAMENTALLY REVOLUTIONIZING

COMMUNICATIONS, AND WITH IT ALL

OF OUR SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

>> WHAT'S ALSO INTERESTING AS

YOU POINT OUT IN THE BOOK IS

ALMOST LIKE A SPIRALING AFFECT

WHERE THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING

THAT EXISTS ON THE INTERNET, BUT

THEN A REAL WORLD INCIDENT

ACTUALLY ADDS MORE FUEL, ALMOST

CREATING MORE MEMES AND IT GOES

BACK ONLINE AND MORE PEOPLE HEAR

ABOUT IT.

JANUARY 6th, YOU STARTED TO SEE

THAT, WHERE STOP THE STEAL, AS

YOU POINT OUT, THAT WASN'T BY

ACCIDENT THAT THAT PHRASE SORT

OF TRENDED.

BUT THEN WITH THE WORDS THAT THE

PRESIDENT WAS SAYING AND WITH

WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN REAL TIME,

YOU SAW KIND AN EVOLUTION OF

THINGS.

>> YEAH.

IT'S THE CYCLE.

WE CALL IT A MEME WAR.

WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENS ONLINE,

PEOPLE ARE EXCITED ABOUT IT.

STOP THE STEAL WAS THIS HASH TAG

PHRASE THAT WAS ACTUALLY COINED

BY ROGER STONE WHO REGISTERED A

WEBSITE CALLED STOP THE STEAL IN

2015, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT

DONALD TRUMP WOULD NOT GET THE

NOMINATION FOR THE REPUBLICAN

PRESIDENCY.

IF WE GO BACK IN OUR MINDS, THE

GOP DID NOT WANT HIM TO BE THE

NOMINEE.

STONE, WHO WAS WORKING FOR HIM,

REGISTERED THIS WEBSITE IN

ANTICIPATION OF BEING ABLE TO

LAUNCH A CAMPAIGN TO SAY THEY

STOLE THE NOMINATION FROM HIM.

IT DIDN'T WORK.

HE DID GET THE NOMINATION.

SO HE HELD THAT IDEA, THAT MEME

IN RESERVE FOR WHEN IT WAS

NEEDED.

THEN THE THING ABOUT ANY KIND OF

A CONSPIRACY THEORY OR IDEA OR

ANY OF THESE THINGS IS THEY

WORK, THEY GO VIRAL WHEN THEY

PLAY ON SOMETHING THAT FEELS

TRUE.

RIGHT?

YOU DON'T GET CONSPIRACY

THEORIES THAT DON'T RESONATE IN

SOME WAY WITH SOME KIND OF PART

OF SOMEONE'S EXPERIENCE.

THAT IDEA RESONATED WITH SOME

PEOPLE FOR VARIOUS REASONS.

ALL SORTS OF REASONS.

WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN IT

RESONATES ONLINE, THEN IT GETS

STRONG ENOUGH, THEY GO INTO THE

REAL WORLD AND DO SOMETHING.

THIS IS WHERE IT BECOMES A MEME

WAR.

FOR IT TO GO MORE POWERFULLY,

YOU NEED IN REAL LIFE THERE TO

BE SOME KIND OF SPECTACLE OR

VIOLENCE OR SOMETHING THAT

PROMPTS A TON OF MEDIA ATTENTION

AND ATTENTION FROM OTHER PEOPLE,

WHICH THEN GROWS THE CAMPAIGN.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WITH STOP

THE STEAL.

IT GREW.

IT SNOWBALLED.

THEY ARE BUILDING MOMENTUM.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE -- I

CONSIDER MYSELF A MEMBER OF THE

MAINSTREAM PRESS STILL.

NOT JUST MAINSTREAM PRESS BUT

THE INSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT,

THE DEMOCRATS AND THE SYSTEMS

THAT ARE SET UP IN THE

GOVERNMENT.

THEY SAW THOSE THINGS BUT WERE

LIKE, THOSE ARE WEIRDOS THAT WE

CAN IGNORE.

OR IF WE CAN'T IGNORE THEM, WE

WILL TISK THEY, POINT OUT HOW

CRAZY THEY ARE.

WE DON'T NEED TO WORRY THEY

REPRESENT MAYBE THE TIP OF THE

ICEBERG.

WHETHER THESE MOVEMENTS BACK

BACK AND FORTH, THEY BUILD

MOMENTUM.

THOSE STOP THE STEAL ROAD SHOWS

PEOPLE WERE MAKING JOKES ON

TWITTER, THEY CONTRIBUTED TO THE

MOMENTUM OF GETTING PEOPLE TO

THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6.

>> WHAT WAS IT ABOUT PRESIDENT

TRUMP WHERE HE UNDERSTOOD THAT

THIS IS A FORM OF COMMUNICATION,

AND HE TAPPED INTO IT IN A WAY

THE POLITICAL LEFT HASN'T AND

RIGHT NOW YOU SEE MANY MEMBERS

OF THE REPUBLICAN AND THE

FURTHER RIGHT WING OF THE

REPUBLICAN PARTY UNDERSTANDING

THIS CONVERSATION AND SAYING

THAT THIS IS WHERE MY

CONSTITUENTS ARE, THIS IS WHERE

MY BASE IS, THIS IS WHAT I NEED

TO NOT DENY?

>> I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO

TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE

LEFT OR THE RIGHT USE MEMES,

THERE'S A COUPLE OF FUNDAMENTAL

FEATURES THAT ARE BOOK OUTLINES

ABOUT MEMES IN GENERAL.

USUALLY, THEY NEED TO BE

ANONYMOUS.

IT SHOULD ELICIT PARTICIPATION.

PEOPLE SHOULD FEEL LIKE THEY ARE

PART OF THE MESSAGING AND THEY

ARE PART OF THE MEME WAR.

TRUMP AND PEOPLE ON THE FAR

RIGHT IN PARTICULAR KNEW THIS

VERY WELL.

THEY ALSO KNEW THAT THEY COULD

USE MEMES TO CARRY THEIR

MESSAGES WITHOUT HAVING TO SHOW

WHO THEY WERE, WITHOUT HAVING TO

SHOW THEIR TRUE MOTIVATIONS.

THIS KIND OF COMMUNICATION HAS

GOTTEN EASIER.

IT ACCOMPLISHES THE CERTAIN

GOALS OF POWER, POLITICS AND

EVEN FUN OR CHAOS.

ON THE RIGHT, THEY HAVE RECOURSE

TO MUCH MORE TRANSGRESSIVE IRONY

AND HUMOR THAT PEOPLE ON LEFT

FIND OFFENSIVE.

IT'S NOT SURPRISING TO TAKE A

CONTEMPORARY EXAMPLE, YOU SAW

THE ADAPTATION OF A MEME LIKE

OKAY BOOMER WHICH WAS FUNNY FOR

YOUNG PEOPLE TO SAY TO ANYONE

OVER 30, ESSENTIALLY, ABOUT THEM

JUST NOT GETTING IT, THAT

ADAPTED INTO OKAY GROOMER.

IT'S A TRANS SLUR.

THE REASON WHY THEY CHOSE

GROOMER -- IF YOU WATCH ENOUGH

OF THE MEDIA ABOUT THE PEOPLE

WHO MAKE THESE, THEY LAY OUT

THEIR RATIONALE WHICH WAS IF YOU

CALLED SOMEONE A PEDOPHILE

ONLINE, YOU COULD BE ACCUING

THEM OF A CRIME AND YOU WOULD

LOSE YOUR ACCOUNT.

THEY CHOSE GROOMER BECAUSE OF

THE CONTENT REACTION.

IT TOOK MONTHS AND MONTHS FOR

TWITTER TO START REACTING.

HERE WE NOW HAVE THE MIDTERMS

HERE, A SERIOUS WEDGE ISSUE

AROUND TRANS PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO

EXIST.

THESE CONTENT PROBLEMS OR

CONTENT MODERATION PROBLEMS DO

BECOME CULTURAL ISSUES, CULTURAL

WEDGE ISSUES.

THEY CAN TRADE UP THE CHAIN ALL

WAIT INTO MAINSTREAM POLITICS.

WE HAVE TO STOP THINKING ABOUT

IT AS LOW CULTURE, BECAUSE OF

SOMEONE LIKE TRUMP WHO WAS VERY

GOOD AT ADAPTING MEMES THAT WERE

OUT THERE.

WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL TO

MAKE SURE THAT WE FOCUS ON THE

POLITICAL VIOLENCE COMMITTED

AGAINST THE PELOSIS.

THIS IS AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT

THAT WE HAVE WITNESSED.

WE DON'T WANT TO BE SHOOTING

DOWN TWITTER MISINFORMATION THAT

SOMEHOW THIS WAS A LOVER'S

QUARREL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE

DON'T LET THESE KINDS OF MEMES

GET TOO STICKY, OR ELSE WE ARE

BACK INTO A SITUATION LIKE WE

WERE WITH SANDY HOOK WHERE WE

DISCUSS CRISIS ACTORS INSTEAD OF

THE ACTUAL TRAGEDY.

>> A LOT OF THE MEMES THAT IT

LOOKS LIKE THIS GUY WHO ATTACKED

AND TRIED TO KIDNAP AND HURT

NANCY PELOSI AND ATTACKED HER

HUSBAND, A LOT OF THE MEMES HE

TRAFFICKED IN ARE EXPLICIT,

VIOLENT RHETORIC.

BUT THEY WILL HAVE A JOKE AS

PART OF IT.

I DO THINK THAT WE IN THE

MAINSTREAM MEDIA AND CULTURE

HAVE CONSIDERED IF THERE'S A

JOKE, IF PEOPLE ARE LAUGHING AT

IT, THEY CAN'T ACTUALLY MEAN IT.

WE NEED TO BE MUCH MORE

COMFORTABLE UNDERSTANDING THAT

PEOPLE CAN BE SERIOUS AND

LAUGHING AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.

WE NEED TO -- WHAT WE ARE TRYING

TO DO WITH THE BOOK IS BRING

BACK THE CURTAIN AND SAY, THE

IRONY ON TOP IS A PROTECTIVE

LAYER, HOPING YOU WILL MISS THE

ACTUAL DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE

BEHIND.

>> THERE'S A PHRASE IN YOUR

BOOK, POLITICS IS DOWNSTREAM

FROM CULTURE.

CULTURE IS DOWNSTREAM FROM THE

INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT

INFRASTRUCTURE, THE INTERNET

INFRASTRUCTURE COMES TO MIND.

WE HAVE A BILLIONAIRE THAT

SUCCESS IT WILLY PURCHASED WHAT

HE WANTS TO BE THE TOWN SQUARE

OF THE INTERNET, WHETHER HE IS

SUCCESSFUL OR NOT IS ANOTHER

HALF HOUR CONVERSATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT ELON'S

TAKEOVER IS GOOD, BAD,

INDIFFERENT, UNKNOWN?

>> FOR RIGHT NOW, IT'S UNKNOWN.

I DON'T HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL.

IF I DID, I WOULD BE IN A

DIFFERENT BUSINESS.

I THINK IT'S BAD TO HAVE A

SINGLE -- THE SINGLE RICHEST MAN

IN THE WORLD ALSO IN CHARGE OF

ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT

COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS

GLOBALLY, GIVEN THE FACT THAT

WHEN HE DOES DIP A TOE INTO

GEOPOLITICAL ISSUES, HE TENDS TO

BE ON THE SIDE OF

AUTHORITARIANS.

WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT WHEN WE

TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE AS AN

IMPORTANT PIECE OF OUR POLITICS,

OUR POLITICS OFTEN REFLECT THE

VALUES OF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE.

IF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE IS GOING

TO BE SLIDING INTO THIS

DIRECTION WHERE HATE, HARASSMENT

AND INCITEMENT ARE PART OF THE

NORMAL COURSE OF THINGS, THEN

WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT

REFLECTED IN OUR POLITICS AND

LIKELY IT IS SHOWING UP IN THESE

NEW KINDS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE

AND NETWORK INCITEMENT.

>> TAKING A STEP BACK, AT SOME

POINT WATCHING THIS

CONVERSATION, YOU KNOW WHAT,

THIS IS STILL TWITTER, AN ONLINE

COMMUNITY.

SO WHAT IF THE RICHEST MAN IN

THE WORLD OWNS THIS THING OR IF

AS HE RECENTLY DID HE SHARES A

CONSPIRACY THEORY IN THE WAKE OF

THIS ATTACK OF NANCY PELOSI'S

HUSBAND THAT IS TOTALLY FALSE

AND HE DELETES IT?

WHY DOES IT MATTER?

WHY SHOULD WE CARE?

>> TWITTER HAS AN OUTSIZED

INFLUENCE ON OUR CULTURE IN

AMERICA IN PARTICULAR.

MAINLY BECAUSE OF WHO IS ON

THERE.

TWITTER IS A CAULDRON OF ELITES

IN A LOT OF WAYS.

WHAT HAPPENS ON TWITTER, WHAT

TRENDS ON TWITTER, WHAT THE VIBE

IS ON TWITTER ENDS UP BEING

SMATTERED ALL OVER

TELEVISION AND IN HOUSES.

MY HUSBAND WILL COME HOME AT THE

END OF THE DAY AND THE STUFF

THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING ON

TWITTER THAT I HAVE BEEN IN THE

BOWELS LOOKING AT WHO MADE IT

AND WHERE IT CAME FROM AND WHO

RETWEETED IT, HE COMES HOME AND

HE KNOWS ABOUT IT.

IT MADE ITS WAY TO THE

CONVERSATIONS AT HIS OFFICE OR

TO THE RADIO.

IT GETS PICKED UP.

THERE'S ONE FACT.

IT HAS A LOUDER VOICE THAN OTHER

PLACES.

ELON MUSK REPRESENTS A KIND OF

TECHNOCRAT OF THE SILICON VALLEY

ILK WHO -- THERE'S A GROWING

NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO HAVE THIS

IDEA THAT AS TECHNOLOGISTS, THEY

KNOW MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE.

AS SOMEONE WHO LIVES IN THIS

AREA, I CAN TELL YOU A LOT OF

PEOPLE IN SILICON VALLEY HAVE

THIS SENSE THAT, HEY, WE ARE THE

ONES WHO MADE THIS WORLD THE WAY

IT IS.

THE GOVERNMENT IS BROKEN.

THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

THIS IS A TECHNO-MONARCHIST

MINDSET THAT'S INSURGENT IN

CERTAIN VERY POWERFUL CIRCLES.

ELON IS A PART OF THAT.

ELON IS JUST A POWERFUL TROLL IN

THE SAME WAY THAT DONALD TRUMP

WAS.

HE IS FUNNY.

HE IS USING THE INTERNET IN A

SILLY WAY, RILING PEOPLE UP.

TALK TO ANY REPORTER WHO HAS

BEEN ON THE MUSK BEAT OR THE

TESLA BEAT FOR YEARS.

ELON HAS NO QUALMS SICKING HIS

NETWORKED GROUP OF FANS ON

ANYONE.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT.

THAT'S WHAT GOT HIM SUED WHEN HE

CALLED SOMEONE A PEDOPHILE ON

TWITTER.

HE IS WILLING TO ENGAGE IN THAT

KIND OF TARGETED HARASSMENT THAT

IS THE THING THAT CAN BECOME SO

PROBLEMATIC.

ELON ALREADY HAD MILLIONS OF

MILLIONS AND NOW HE OWNS THE

PRODUCTION OF THIS SYSTEM THAT

HAS AN OUTSIZED INFLUENCE ON OUR

POLITICS.

YOU HAVE BEEN SEEING ACCOUNTS

NOW THAT THERE'S BEEN MORE

RACISM, MORE N WORD, MORE

ANTI-SEMITIC STUFF ON TWITTER

SINCE MUSK'S TAKEOVER.

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE, HAS HE

CHANGED THE IN THINGS?

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TWEAK THE

ALGORITHM TO INFLUENCE WHAT KIND

OF CONTENT IS ON TWITTER,

BECAUSE YOU GIVE -- YOU CAN GIVE

A MESSAGE -- YOU CAN MAKE IT

CLEAR TO PEOPLE, MAKE IT SEEM TO

PEOPLE LIKE THIS IS OKAY NOW.

THEY WILL DO IT.

THEY WILL ENGAGE IN IT.

>> THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING

US.

THE BOOK IS CALLED "MEME WARS".

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.