NEXT, CHECKING DEMOCRACY'S PULSE.

IT'S STILL THREATENED IN SO MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD BY THE RISE OF AUTHORITARIANISM.

WRITER YASCHA MOUNK IS KNOWN FOR HIS WORK ON DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS AND LIBERAL VALUES.

IN HIS LATEST BOOK "THE GREAT EXPERIMENT" HE DESCRIBES ETHNICALLY DIVERSE DEMOCRACIES AS THE BIGGEST TEST OF OUR TIME.

HE EXPLAINS TO WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND YASCHA MOUNK, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> WE'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH IN THE PAST 50 YEARS A GREAT EXPERIMENT.

IN FACT, THAT'S THE NAME OF YOUR BOOK.

SOMETHING UNUSUAL IN HUMAN HISTORY, WHICH IS THAT NATION STATES, WHICH WERE GENERALLY HOMOGENOUS.

THEY WEREN'T ALL THAT DIVERSE, ESPECIALLY WESTERN DEMOCRACIES, BE IT SWEDEN, YOUR HOME COUNTRY OF GERMANY, ENGLAND, THE UNITED STATES, HAD A DOMINANT ETHNIC CULTURE.

NOW WE'RE INTO A GREAT DIVERSITY.

THERE'S ALL SORTS OF IMMIGRATION AND CHANGE.

THAT'S CALLED THE GREAT EXPERIMENT IN YOUR BOOK.

HOW'S THAT EXPERIMENT GOING?

>> YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT COUNTRIES LIKE SWEDEN OR GERMANY, THEY USED TO BE VERY HOM GENIOUS UNTIL 30 OR 40 YEARS AGO.

THEY'VE BECOME EXTREMELY DIVERSE IN A VERY SHORT SPACE OF TIME.

THEY HAVE NEARLY AS MANY PEOPLE, IN SOME CASES MORE PEOPLE BORN OUTSIDE THE BORDERS, THAN THE UNITED STATES.

AND IT USED TO BE A DIVERSE NATION BUT A NATION WITH A VERY STEEP ETHNIC AND RELIGIOUS HIERARCHY IN WHICH SOME PEOPLE HAD FULL RIGHTS, FULL PARTICIPATION, OTHER PEOPLE WERE BRUTALLY SUBJUGATED.

THERE ARE MANY INJUSTICES THAT REMAIN TODAY THERE ARE MANY PROBLEMS THAT REMAIN TODAY AND WE SEE THE POLITICAL CHALLENGES THAT COME FROM THAT AND PART OF PLURALIZATION THAT COMES FROM THAT.

BUT WHAT I ARGUE IN "THE GREAT YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT HOW DIFFICULT AN UNDERTAKING THIS IS AND HOW MUCH PROGRESS WE'VE MADE OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST 200, 250 YEARS, WE SHOULD BE A LOT MORE OPTIMISTIC THAN WE MIGHT CURRENTLY BE FEELING.

>> WE OFTEN SAY THAT DIVERSITY IS OUR STRENGTH.

YOU MENTION THAT IN THE BOOK.

I'M FROM NEW ORLEANS HERE, AND I THINK OF EVERYTHING WE DO HERE FROM THE JAZZ TO THE FOOD TO THE ARCHITECTURE, IT COMES FROM 250 YEARS OF GREAT DIVERSITY.

AND YET AS I READ YOUR BOOK I REALIZE DEMOCRACIES AREN'T REALLY THAT STRONG AT TIMES AT DEALING WITH THIS DIVERSITY.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT DIVERSE SOCIETIES OF ANY KIND THROUGHOUT HISTORY, THEY OFTEN WENT WRONG IN REALLY TERRIFYING AND BRUTAL WAYS.

THEY LED TO WARS, CIVIL WARS, FORMS OF ETHNIC CLEANSING, FORMS OF GENOCIDE.

THERE ARE THREE BIG REASONS FOR THAT.

THE FIRST HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE GROUPISH.

WE FIND IT VERY EASY TO BE VERY ALTRUISTIC AND COURAGEOUS IN DEFENDING OUR OWN BUT CAN ALSO BE VERY BRUTAL TOWARD ANYBODY WE THINK IS A MEMBER OF THE OUT GROUP.

THE SECOND HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT NOT ALWAYS BUT OFTEN IN HISTORY THE LINES OF ETHNICITY, RELIGION, LANGUAGE, CULTURE, THOSE WERE THE THINGS THAT MOTIVATED THIS IN GROUP/OUT GROUP DISTINCTION.

BUT THE THIRD HAS TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY AS YOU'RE IMPLYING.

I'M A GREAT BELIEVER IN DEMOCRACY AND BELIEVER IN DIVERSITY BUT IN SOME WAYS DEMOCRACY MAKES IT HARDER BECAUSE YOU KNOW, 500 YEARS AGO IF WE WERE LIVING UNDER SOME MONARCH YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY POLITICAL POWER, I DIDN'T HAVE ANY POLITICAL POWER.

AS LONG AS WE BOTH TRUSTED THE MONARCH TO SORT OF TOLERATE US, WHICH WAS TRUE IN THE 19th CENTURY AND AGAIN IN THE 19th CENTURY, IT DIDN'T MATTER DEMOCRATIC CHANGE, IT DIDN'T MATTER WHETHER THERE WAS NEW PEOPLE COMING INTO A SOCIETY.

IT DIDN'T CHANGE THE RELATIONS OF POWER.

IN A DEMOCRACY WE'RE ALWAYS SEARCHING FOR MAJORITIES.

SO WHEN PEOPLE THINK HEY, I USED TO BE IN THE MAJORITY BUT NOW SUDDENLY THIS OTHER GROUP HAS MORE INFLUENCE COMING IN, I MIGHT LOSE THAT MAJORITY BUT EVERYTHING MIGHT CHANGE.

I MIGHT LOSE MY POWER.

I MIGHT LOSE MY STATUS IN SOCIETY.

AND THAT ELICITS A LOT OF FEARS.

AND WE CAN SEE THAT IN THE RISE OF POPULISM AND A LOT OF FORMS OF POLITICS WE'VE BEEN CHRONICLING IN THE UNITED STATES AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD IN THE LAST 10 OR 15 YEARS.

>> DEMOCRACY SEEMS TO BE REALLY ENDANGERED NOW.

THROUGHOUT WESTERN EUROPE, SOMETIMES IN THE UNITED STATES.

IS IT BECAUSE OF A POPULIST BACKLASH AGAINST IMMIGRATION?

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS.

I DON'T THINK IT'S THE ONLY REASON.

IT HAS TO DO ALSO WITH THE RISE OF INTERNET AND SOCIAL MEDIA.

IS IT HAS TO DO WITH ECONOMIC STAGNATION AND THE LIVING STANDARDS OF ORDINARY CITIZENS.

I THINK IN PART BEING SELF-CRITICAL YOU AND I AS SORT OF MEMBERS OF THE ELITE BY VIRTUE YAO OF BEING ON TELEVISION TALKING ABOUT THESE TOPICS, I THINK OFTEN IT'S TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND TRYING TO PERHAPS IMPOSE OUR PREFERENCES, OUR IDEAS ABOUT THE WORLD.

NOT ALWAYS LISTENING TO FEEDBACK.

ALL OF THOSE ARE REASONS.

BUT I DO THINK THAT ONE IMPORTANT REASON IS THIS GREAT CONTESTATION OVER WHAT ARE THE RULES OF OUR SOCIETY GOING TO BE LIKE?

IS THERE GOING TO BE A VISION FOR OUR SOCIETY IN WHICH MEMBERS OF HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED GROUPS FEEL THEY HAVE A FULL SEAT AT THE TABLE, THEY'RE BEING TREATED AS EQUALS, BUT ALSO MEMBERS OF A HISTORICAL MAJORITY, OF HISTORICALLY DOMINANT GROUPS DON'T BECOME PARANOID ABOUT WHAT'S THIS COUNTRY GOING TO LOOK LIKE IN 20, 30 OR 40 YEARS, AM I STILL GOING TO HAVE A PRIDE OF PLACE IN THIS COUNTRY AS WELL.

THAT IS THE GREAT CHALLENGE OF THIS MOMENT.

BUT I AM QUITE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT US BEING ABLE TO CREATE THAT.

I ACTUALLY THINK WE HAVE THE FOUNDATIONS FOR CIVIC PATRIOTISM AND ALSO THE FOUNDATIONS FOR A CULTURAL PATRIOTISM.

I THINK MOST AMERICANS LOVE THEIR COUNTRY, AGREE NOT ON EVERYTHING BUT ON SOME OF THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES AND VALUES AND DOCUMENTS WHICH SHOULD GUIDE OUR COMMON LIFE.

AND I THINK MOST OF US LOVE THE CURRENT IN ITS CON KROOIT WAY, LOVE ITS CITIES AND LANDSCAPES AND SIGHTS AND SOUNDS AND SMELLS AND ITS EVERYDAY CULTURE WHICH HAS BECOME VERY DIVERSE OVER THE LAST DECADES AND WITH A FEW EXCEPTIONS, A VERY SMALL MINORITY OF AMERICANS EXCEPT, PEOPLE LOVE THAT ABOUT THE COUNTRY AND APPRECIATE THAT ABOUT THE COUNTRY.

>> YOU KNOW, THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY, THIS SORT OF THEORY THAT NON-WHITES ARE IMMIGRATING AND MIGRATING INTO AMERICA, GOING TO REPLACE US, IT'S DONE TO CHANGE OUR CULTURE, THERE ARE A LOT OF STUDIES SAYING THAT THAT HAS GAINED SOME TRACTION.

IN YOUR BOOK YOU MENTION SOME STUDIES THAT SAY THAT HAS GAINED SOME TRACTION.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION AND HOW DOES A DIVERSE DEMOCRACY DEAL WITH SOMETHING LIKE THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY?

>> YEAH.

WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY IS IT CAUSES THIS SORT OF GREAT INTENTIONALITY TO THESE DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES.

IT'S SAYING THERE'S THIS DELIBERATE PLOIF BY A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DECIDED THEY WANT TO EXCHANGE OUR POPULATION.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF HOW SOCIETIES BECOME DIVERSE THAT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

IN GERMANY WHERE I'M FROM THE GUEST WORKERS -- THE IDEA ALL THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAD WAS THEY'RE GOING TO GO HOME IN THREE OR FOUR YEARS.

OUR FACTORIES WILL PAY THEM WELL AND THEY'LL GO BACK HOME.

AND THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IN THE UNITED STATES WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE KEY REFORM IMMIGRATION ACT FROM THE 1960s WHICH HAD A BIG IMPACT ON GROWING DIVERSITY IN THE UNITED STATES PEOPLE AT THE TIME WERE CONVINCED IT WOULDN'T HAVE A BIG IMPACT ON THE DEMOGRAPHIC COMPOSITION OF A COUNTRY.

FACTUALLY OF COURSE THIS CONSPIRACY THEORY OF GREAT REPLACEMENT IS SIMPLY WRONG.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE IMPACT IT HAS, I ACTUALLY THINK IT IS A PROBLEM OF VERY MOTIVATED EXTREMISTS BUT IT IS NOT A PROBLEM OF A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE DEEPLY AFRAID OF THESE DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES, WHO CANNOT ENVISAGE A PLACE FOR THEMSELVES IN THE FUTURE IN THE UNITED STATES IF IT'S NOT A MAJORITY WHITE NATION.

BUT THAT IS VERY CLEARLY A MINORITY OF THE POPULATION WHEN YOU LOOK AT POLLS.

MOST AMERICANS DO WELCOME PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS IN THE COUNTRY, DO UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE MADE STRONGER BY HAVING THAT KIND OF ETHNIC AND RELIGIOUS DIVERSITY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE POLARIZATION BASED ON RACE.

YOU TALK ABOUT IDENTITY POLITICS BEING DANGEROUS.

TELL ME, WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HAVING A MAJORITY MINORITY NATION OR IDENTITY POLITICS, HOW DO YOU PRESS BACK AGAINST THAT?

>> WELL, SO THIS IDEA OF A MAJORITY MINORITY NATION I THINK IS REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE IN MY MIND IT IS BASED ON A VERY SIMPLISTIC READING OF WHAT THE SOCIOLOGICAL REALITY OF OUR COUNTRY IS.

IT ASSUMES, FIRST OF ALL, THAT YOU CAN EASILY CLEAVE AMERICA INTO A RELATIVELY HOMOGENEOUS BLOCK OF WHITE PEOPLE AND A RELATIVELY HOMOGENEOUS BLOCK OF SO-CALLED PEOPLE OF COLOR.

BUT THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF VARIATION WITHIN THOSE GROUPS.

FIRST OF ALL, THE SO-CALLED PEOPLE OF COLOR INCLUDE MANY MIXED RACE PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE THREE WHITE GRANDPARENTS AND ONE LATINO GRANDPARENT AND THEY DON'T THINK OF THEMSELVES AS SOMEHOW SPLIT DOWN THE MIDDLE.

THEY THINK THAT THEY BELONG TO BOTH CULTURES.

IT ASSUMES THAT IN THE NATURAL WAY ASIAN AMERICANS OR LATINOS WHO HAVE EUROPEAN EXTRACTION ARE ALWAYS GOING TO VOTE FOR EXAMPLE WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS.

THERE'S A" WAY IN WHICH THESE ARE TWO MUTUALLY HOSTILE BLOCKS.

AND I THINK THAT'S A VISION OF OUR SOCIETY WE SHOULD REJECT.

IT'S CYNICAL.

AND IF IT CAME TRUE, IF IT CAME TO BE TRUE IN 2050ING THAT WE HAD THESE TWO BLOCKS OF THE POPULATION THAT VOTE IN CONSISTENT WAYS, THAT MISTRUST EACH OTHER AND SO ON, THAT WOULD BE A DEEP FAILURE OF OUR SOCIETY AND A VERY DANGEROUS DEVELOPMENT.

THANKFULLY FOR ALL THE POLITICS, ALL THE DYSFUNCTION IN WASHINGTON ALL THE WORRIES THEY HAVE ABOUT RISING POPULISTS LIKE DONALD TRUMP, WE'VE ACTUALLY SEEN A DEPOLARIZATION BY RACE IN OUR POLITICS OVER THE LAST 10 OR 15 YEARS.

IN 2012 AND 2016 IF YOU TOLD ME THE DEMOGRAPHIC ATTRIBUTES, TOLD ME THEIR RACE, I WOULD BE ABLE TO CREATE VERY WELL WHO THEY VOTE FOR.

TODAY I CAN PREDICT THAT MUCH LESS WELL THAN THE PAST, IN PART BECAUSE JOE BIDEN BECAME THE LEGITIMATELY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THIS COUNTRY IN 2020 BY INCREASING HIS SHARE OF THE WHITE VOTE RELATIVE TO HILLARY CLINTON IN 2016 AND DONALD TRUMP WAS COMPETITIVE, CAME QUITE CLOSE BECAUSE HE SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED HIS SHARE OF THE VOTE AMONG EVERY NON-WHITE VOTER GROUPS, PARTICULARLY BUT NOT ONLY AMONG LATINOS RELATIVE TO 2016.

>> THERE SEEMED TO HAVE BEEN A GREAT SORT OF HEAD-SNAPPING CHANGE IN OUR DEMOCRACY BETWEEN VOTING FOR BARACK OBAMA AND RE-ELECTING HIM AND SINCE EMBRACING THE DIVERSITY OF AMERICA AND THEN A REACTION THAT COMES WITH THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

WHY DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> I THINK ONE SIMPLE OBSERVATION THAT I LIKE IS THAT AMERICANS OFTEN VOTE FOR THE INVERSE OF THE LAST PRESIDENT.

THEY VOTE FOR A PHOTO NEGATIVE OF WHOEVER THE LAST PRESIDENT WAS.

AND IF YOU TRY TO THINK OF A MAN WHO IS AS UNLIKE BARACK OBAMA AS POSSIBLE YOU SORT OF GET TO DONALD TRUMP.

BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A HARDCORE OF TRUMP'S BASE WHICH HELPED WIN HIM THE 2016 PRIMARIES IN PARTICULAR THAT I THINK REALLY IS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH WHAT I CALL THE GREAT EXPERIMENT, THAT REALLY DOESN'T WANT TO LIVE IN THE DIVERSE NATION THAT ACTUALLY GIVES PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS EQUAL RIGHTS.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE GREAT MAJORITY OF THE U.S. POPULATION, WE'RE LESS POLARIZED THAN WE THINK.

WE HAVE OPINIONS AND THEY'RE A LOT MORE SUBTLE THAN THEY MAY APPEAR.

MOST AMERICANS BELIEVE THERE IS SIGNIFICANT DISCRIMINATION AGAINST AFRICAN AMERICANS.

MOST AMERICANS BELIEVE WE HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH POLICE VIOLENCING THAT TARGETS NOT ONLY BUT PARTICULARLY AFRICAN AMERICANS.

MOST AMERICANS ALSO THINK WE SHOULDN'T DEFUND THE POLICE AND WE NEED A FUNCTIONING POLICE FORCE THAT WILL ACTUALLY BEHAVE RESPECTFULLY AND PROTECT ITS CITIZENS.

THE SAME IS TRUE WHEN IT COMES TO HISTORY.

A RECENT STUDY SHOWED DEMOCRATS BELIEVE REPUBLICANS DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT SLAVERY, DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE EVILS AND PARTS OF OUR HISTORY THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT NEGATIVE STUFF AT ALL.

AND REPUBLICANS THINK DEMOCRATS WOULDN'T BE WILLING TO CELEBRATE GEORGE WASHINGTON AND THINK WE SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF BEING AMERICANS.

AND BOTH OF THOSE STATEMENTS ARE UNTRUE.

MOST AMERICANS BELIEVE THAT SLAVERY WAS A GREAT SIN THAT WE NEED TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN ABOUT IN SCHOOL AND AT THE SAME TIME WE CAN BE PROUD OF THE VERY POSITIVE ASPECTS OF AMERICAN HISTORY AND SOME OF THE GREAT THINGS WE'VE ACHIEVED AS A COUNTRY.

THOSE ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN 1619 AND 1776.

AND THE GREAT MAJORITY OF AMERICANS RECOGNIZES THAT.

>> WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS CONFLICT, THIS CLASH BETWEEN CULTURES AND EVERYTHING ELSE, ONE OF THE ANTIDOTES THAT YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, I THINK YOU CALL IT INTERGROUP CONTACT.

THERE'S STUDIES ABOUT IT THAT YOU CITE.

RELATIONSHIPS AND FOR THAT MATTER MARRIAGES BETWEEN PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT GROUPS.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS THAT REALLY GROWING AND IS THAT A FACTOR?

>> YEAH, SO THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GIVES ME HOPE.

THERE IS A PROGRAM IN PSYCHOLOGY THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR 60 YEARS.

THOUSANDS OF STUDIES, VERY, VERY ROBUST FINDINGS WOULD SHOW THAT WHEN PEOPLE HAVE CONTACT WITH EACH OTHER, WHEN THEY LIVE NEXT TO EACH OTHER AS NEIGHBORS, WHEN THEY'RE IN SCHOOL TOGETHER, WHEN THEY WORK TOGETHER, WHEN THEY ARE ON SPORTS TEAMS TOGETHER, IT HAS VERY SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON REDUCING PREJUDICES ABOUT EACH OTHER.

THERE'S A POSITIVE PIECE OF NEWS HERE WHICH IS THAT THE COUNTRY IS BECOMING MORE INTEGRATED.

THAT THE NUMBER OF DEEPLY SEGREGATED BE NEIGHBORHOODS HAS BEEN REDUCING OVER TIME.

BUT AS THE COUNTRY HAS BECOME MORE DIVERSE, THE SORT OF ETHNIC MAJORITY HAS A LESS BIG SHARE OF A COUNTRY, IT BECOMES MUCH HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE IN THESE COMPLETELY MONOCHROME COMMUNITIES.

AND THAT IS HAVING A REALLY GOOD IMPACT ON HOW PEOPLE THINK ABOUT EACH OTHER.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE CHANGE IN ATTITUDES TOWARD IMMIGRANTS IN CALIFORNIA FROM THE 1990s TO TODAY I THINK THAT'S A REALLY GOOD SIGN OF WHAT MAY BE AHEAD IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY AS WELL.

>> LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING FROM YOUR BOOK WHICH IS SORT OF AN OPTIMISTIC STATEMENT.

YOU WRITE, "ANYBODY WHO IS SERIOUS ABOUT CREATING DIVERSE DEMOCRACIES THAT ENDURE AND THRIVE NEEDS TO PUT FORWARD A POSITIVE AND REALISTIC VISION FOR HOW THIS GREAT EXPERIMENT CAN SUCCEED."

TELL ME HOW.

>> YEAH.

THE FIRST PART OF THIS IS THAT WE'RE ALWAYS HEAVILY FOCUSED ON THE THINGS THAT ARE WRONG IN OUR SOCIETY.

SAYING HEY, THE TRAIN CAME ON TIME TODAY IS A BORING STATEMENT.

SAYING CAN YOU BELIEVE I HAD TO WAIT AN HOUR AND A HALF TO GET ON THE SUBWAY, THAT'S INTERESTING.

WE WANT TO FIX THAT PROBLEM WHEN IT'S THERE.

WE HAVE MANY PROBLEMS IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY.

>> BUT WE ALSO NEED TO BE ABLE TO ASSESS HOW WELL WE DO IN A REALISTIC WAY.

AND AGAIN, WHEN YOU COMPARE THE UNITED STATES TODAY TO WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE 100 YEARS AGO, TO WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE 50 YEARS AGO, EVEN TO WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE 25 YEARS AGO, I THINK IT'S CLEARLY TRUE THAT WE'VE MADE TREMENDOUS PROGRESS IN INCLUDING SEXUAL MINORITIES, INCLUDING ETHNIC MINORITIES, RELIGIOUS MINORITIES IN THE COUNTRY IN A MUCH BETTER WAY THAN WE DID IN THE PAST AND ACTUALLY LIVING UP TO THE FUNDAMENTAL PROMISE OF OUR CONSTITUTION, OF OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS THAT EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVING IN FREEDOM AND BEING ABLE TO PURSUE HAPPINESS.

AND SO THE FIRST START TO AN OPTIMISTIC VISION IS TO CONTINUE BEING ANGRY ABOUT THE THINGS THAT ARE WRONG BUT NOT TO BE CYNICAL, TO REALIZE THAT SOME OF OUR FUNDAMENTAL INSTITUTIONS AND PRINCIPLES HAVE HELPED US STRIVE FOR A MORE PERFECT UNION IN THE PAST AND WE NEED TO CONTINUE WORKING TOWARDS THAT ON THE BASIS OF THOSE SAME VALUES AND DOCUMENTS IN THE FUTURE.

>> YASCHA MOUNK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, WALTER.