{"id":1755,"date":"2008-12-26T09:00:19","date_gmt":"2008-12-26T13:00:19","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.pbs.org\/wnet\/religionandethics\/?p=1755"},"modified":"2013-05-10T14:58:11","modified_gmt":"2013-05-10T18:58:11","slug":"december-26-2008-look-back-2008","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.pbs.org\/wnet\/religionandethics\/2008\/12\/26\/december-26-2008-look-back-2008\/1755\/","title":{"rendered":" Look Back 2008"},"content":{"rendered":"

BOB ABERNETHY<\/strong>, anchor: We look back now at 2008 with the help of Kim Lawton of RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY; Roland Martin, a CNN commentator who joins us from Chicago; and E.J. Dionne, a columnist for The Washington Post<\/em> and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Welcome to you all.<\/p>\n

E.J.DIONNE<\/strong> (Columnist, Washington Post<\/em> and Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution): Good to be with you.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: E.J. we had an election in thispast year, and the question is, what are the messages that come to you from the campaign and the vote?<\/p>\n

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\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

E.J. Dionne<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/div>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve ever had a campaign that was so rich in messages. The obvious is still the most important. This is a country that began in slavery. African-American slaves came over from Africa at the beginning of the 17th century. We were a racially segregated country less than 50 years ago in parts of our country, and we elected Barack Obama, an African American, indeed somebody whose parents \u2014 their biracial family \u2014 where their marriage would have been illegal in a lot of states in our country. That\u2019s an extraordinary thing. It wouldn\u2019t have happened without an overwhelming mobilization of the African-American community, and it wouldn\u2019t have happened if he \u2014 60 percent of the votes he got, roughly a little more than that, came from white people. So this is an extraordinary thing in a democracy. I think the other thing \u2014 I\u2019ve been playing in my head with the slogan \u201cChange we can believe in.\u201d We focused a lot on change, but there are two other words that are interesting. One is the word \u201cwe\u201d and I think there was a sense of a more communitarian country coming out of this election, where he talked a lot about rebuilding community and the country. And \u201cbelieve\u201d is an important word, not in the religious sense, but in the sense that people wanted more confidence in their government and their political system, and that\u2019s what he promised in this election.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: And Roland Martin in Chicago, the messages that came through to you, what?<\/p>\n

ROLAND MARTIN<\/strong> (CNN Commentator): Sure, I want to pick up on what E.J. just said, because that is a critical point. On November 4, when Obama gave his victory speech, he used the word \u201cwe\u201d 47 times. If you study this campaign all throughout from the primary to the general election, whenever you heard Senator Hillary Clinton talk she always said, \u201cWhat I want to do as president.\u201d Whenever you heard Senator John McCain talk he always said, \u201cWhat I am going to do as president.\u201d Obama always talked about \u201cwe, us, our.\u201d And so that was a challenge, if you will, to America. And I\u2019ve sort of been speaking on this topic for the last couple of months, and I think about Nehemiah and the rebuilding of the wall. He had a vision, but he said the people must agree, and then they said, \u201clet us rebuild.\u201d But the challenge he constantly gave, which I think the American people bought into, was not just what I can do as president, but what we can do as a nation. So the challenge going forward is how the nation is going to respond to their role in responsibility, as opposed to what he is going to do in the White House.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: And Kim, the messages for you?<\/p>\n

KIM LAWTON<\/strong> (Managing Editor, RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY<\/em><\/strong>): Well, I was fascinated of course by some of the things these guys have talked about, but also just the incredible role religion played on every front throughout this campaign. You had both parties actively reaching out to people of faith, and frankly for the Democrats, that was a new thing. You hadn\u2019t seen that in quite awhile. You had a Democratic candidate who was religious and comfortable about talking about his faith. But you also had questions about whether a Mormon could be president; you had questions about whether a Southern Baptist pastor should be president; what about a Muslim, and all the, you know, rumors about whether Barack Obama was a Muslim or not. You had questions about evangelicals and are they going to stay with John McCain. Controversial ministers. Every time you turned around religion played a key role, and that was really fun to watch.<\/p>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: I think that\u2019s a really important point Kim makes. I mean, for Democrats, I\u2019ve joked that Democrats discovered God in the 2004 exit polls. You know, they realized that religious Americans were very important in George Bush\u2019s victories, and I think Barack Obama more than any Democrat in a while really tried to speak directly to religious Americans, including those he knew were going to vote against him. You know, he gave a very powerful speech in \u201906. The speech he gave after the Jeremiah Wright controversy had sort of important religious overtones, and so I think we\u2019re going to have a different conversation about religion going forward.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Let me ask Roland . . .<\/p>\n

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\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Roland Martin<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/div>\n

Mr.MARTIN<\/strong>: I think one of the reasons for that and let me just touch on that \u2014 that is Democrats used to understand the role of religion, and that is, when you study the civil rights movement, that was a religious movement that morphed into a social movement and also touched upon the Democratic Party nationally. The party then got away from that. I think what you\u2019re seeing is \u2014 you\u2019re seeing politicians who now recognize that people\u2019s faith is not a part of who they are, but for many it is the essence of who they are, and that is they\u2019re looking at issues today through their faith. They\u2019re looking at climate change; they\u2019re looking at the issue of marriage and abortion; they\u2019re looking at parenting; they\u2019re looking at values \u2014 not just simply saying, \u201cWell, this is what I am going to do within the comfort of my home, but this is what I do every single day, no matter whether I\u2019m at work or at home.\u201d That, I think, is something we must watch for, as to how people say faith is now playing a role in every facet of our lives.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: And meanwhile, E.J., Kim, we had a recession \u2014 we have a recession, even a collapse of the financial system. Again, this question of messages \u2014 what messages? What does it say?<\/p>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: Well, you know, when the commandment says \u201cThou shall not steal,\u201d that\u2019s about our economic life, not just about somebody hitting you over the head, and I think that what we\u2019re seeing here is sort of a new engagement of our ethical responsibilities within the economy, and the other thing is a lot of times within political campaigns you hear the slogan, \u201cWe\u2019re all in this together.\u201d I think hard times are moments when we really are all in this together, when there\u2019s much more of that feeling, that we can feel confident being off on our own when times are good and we have a sense of \u201cI can make it myself.\u201d I think in this kind of period, people look to each other a little bit more.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: But historically there\u2019s been some conflict between different parts of a society when times get tough.<\/p>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: Oh, that\u2019s true. I mean there can be class warfare, and you\u2019ve seen some of that fighting around the bailouts \u2014 I mean the argument that we bailed out the finance industry easily. We are not so easy about bailing out the car industry. Does that mean there are a lot of blue collar workers there? So yes, you\u2019re seeing this kind of conflict in the society. But still, when you look at our history, if you look at the New Deal, that was very much a \u201cwe\u201d kind of period. I always think of \u201cIt\u2019s a Wonderful Life\u201d as the quintessential New Deal movie, and George Bailey as the figure of that kind of \u201cwe.\u201d<\/p>\n

Ms. LAWTON<\/strong>: It\u2019s had a real \u2014 I just wanted to say briefly \u2014 it\u2019s had a real impact practically, though, when you are talking about \u201cwe.\u201d Religious institutions are the places people go when times are tough, and a lot of these religious institutions are affected themselves. So at a time when they\u2019re getting more and more requests for help from people they\u2019re, you know, don\u2019t have the same budget. They\u2019re having a hard time keeping their light bills paid. So it has for the religious community very practical effects.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: And Roland?<\/p>\n

Mr. MARTIN<\/strong>: I believe this recession shows how people of faith have failed themselves when it comes to their faith. We have been absolutely horrible stewards of our resources. You know, whenever we talk about Americans being in debt \u2014 I mean, we have more debt than we have ever had \u2014 ever. And so we\u2019re sitting here buying a houses and cars and we\u2019re taking vacations. Even people in the body of the church doing the exact same thing, and all of the sudden when it all crumbles people then say, \u201cOh my God, Lord, Jesus, Allah or Buddha\u201d or whatever it is, \u201coh please, please help me out of this mess\u201d when God is sitting here saying, \u201cWell, you know what, I tried to help you when you were in the middle of it.\u201d I think you are seeing a back-to-basics mentality. You are seeing very few gospel of prosperity folks championing that whole theory. They\u2019re not recognizing that we cannot keep talking about accruing more and more and more without recognizing that our resources are finite.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Let me change \u2014 we could talk about this all day. Kim, you covered the Episcopalians this year as the year before. Four Episcopal dioceses have now left the Episcopal Church USA.<\/p>\n

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\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Kim Lawton<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/div>\n

Ms. LAWTON<\/strong>: Well, the ongoing discussions and struggles over homosexuality, the consecration of a gay bishop, issues of theology continue to, you know, really split not only the US Episcopal Church, but the entire worldwide Anglican Communion that the US Episcopal Church is part of. Big development this year: the conservative groups, some of them entire dioceses that left the Episcopal Church, are trying to form their own rival church body here in the US, so it would still be Anglican. So in other words, it would still be part of the worldwide Anglican Communion, but not part of the US Episcopal Church, and this is really unprecedented for the Anglican Communion if it indeed goes forward.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Yeah. Some of us who have experience with Baptist and Methodist and others would say, \u201cWell, what\u2019s so bad about splitting?\u201d<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Well, the thing of it is they don\u2019t want to completely split because they still want to be part of the worldwide church, and the worldwide church just isn\u2019t organized that way. I think the other\u2026<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Can there be two Anglican groups in the United States?<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Well, that\u2019s what the conservatives are hoping for, but of course the Episcopalians, the establishment Episcopalians are saying no, we are the expression of Anglicanism in the US. And the other thing is it gets very complicated when you are talking about church property, money, and authority. Who\u2019s in charge? Who answers to whom under this kind of scenario? But that\u2019s what, you know, they\u2019re going to try to work out.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: A great story in 2008 was what happened in California with Proposition 8 and the aftermath to it. You were covering that, too.<\/p>\n

Ms. LAWTON<\/strong>: Well, again, this shows that the issue of homosexuality is roiling not only the church but American society. Gay marriage was briefly legalized in California; then the voters turned that back, and religious conservatives were a key part of that movement. Ironically, a lot of the voters who came out for Barack Obama, who were mobilized by his candidacy, helped defeat gay marriage in California, and that\u2019s really set off a big backlash within the gay community and, you know, a lot of protests.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: And E. J., the pope came to the United States in this past year and was very well received.<\/p>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: He was, and that trip was enormously successful in the sense that his approval ratings after that trip were much higher than before. Why was that? I think it\u2019s because he, far more than anyone I think expected him to, devoted the trip to a kind of apology and penance for the pedophilia scandal in the church. He came back to that again and again and again. When you saw the reaction to the trip afterward, I think what you found is more conservative Catholics were a little bit disappointed that he hadn\u2019t taken a harder line. I think more progressive Catholics were relieved that he didn\u2019t take a harder line. But I think he understood how much damage that scandal had caused the church, and he did everything in his power to say I understand that and I want to do something about it.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: It was interesting, because he came under the shadow of John Paul II, who was so beloved, and people didn\u2019t really know Benedict or if they did, they didn\u2019t think they liked him very much, and this trip really was a debut for him, and it gave people an opportunity to see him, and so, despite the, you know, some disappointments and whatever, I think that he came away with people really getting a new affection for him.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: I want to ask you all, if any one of you wants to take on this question, about the ethical lapses in 2008. You know, John Edwards and the governor of Illinois and the governor of New York. Does anyone want to try to explain? Roland, maybe you can try to explain it\u2014 why people who are prominent and powerful think they can get away with doing something wrong?<\/p>\n

Mr. MARTIN<\/strong>: Because I think what happens is whether you are prominent, whether you are somebody no one frankly knows other than you family \u2014 and that is you think about the consequences after you\u2019ve gotten in trouble. And so I sort of remember Michael Irvin when he got in trouble years ago, and he came home, and he was scared to death of what his wife was going to say when he got busted with a couple of women, and she said, \u201cOh, I\u2019m not your problem.\u201d Sandy said, \u201cThat\u2019s between you and God.\u201d And so what happens is people make these decisions not thinking that, \u201cWait a minute, how can I sit here and talk about my faith and talk what it means to be a godly man and a godly woman and then I go \u2014 then I do something completely different than what I\u2019ve been talking about?\u201d And so I think what has to happen is, people have to get back into \u2013 and also accountability must come in as well. You know, I think you have to have people around you who are also holding you accountable, accountability partners as well. We\u2019ve gotten away from that. We\u2019ve gotten people around you who are buddies, who go along with you as opposed to saying, \u201cNo, we\u2019re going to walk on the straight and narrow together,\u201d because there are too much \u2014 you can lose too much, frankly, if you go down this particular path, not just material but also you\u2019re personal integrity, which is difficult to get back.<\/p>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: Reinhold Niebuhr famously said original sin is the only empirically verifiably doctrine of the Christian Church, and no matter how famous you are, you can fall.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Kim, very quickly, Rich Cizik and his resignation as the chief lobbyist in Washington for the National Association of Evangelicals: A lot of people are reading a great deal of significance into that. You want to take that?<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Well, it\u2019s part of, I think, the growing discussions that have been going on in the religious right among religious conservatives about what their agenda should be. Richard Cizik is one who had advocated \u201ccreation care,\u201d he called it, you know, concern about the environment. He got into trouble most recently for suggesting that he could accept civil unions, not gay marriage, but same-sex benefits for same-sex couples, and that\u2019s another issue, that some evangelicals, especially younger evangelicals, are becoming more tolerant than their parents were. So I think that symbolized some of the greater conversations that are going on about the agenda, and what it should be, and what it should be in the future.<\/p>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: I thought that was fascinating. Go ahead, Roland.<\/p>\n

Mr. MARTIN<\/strong>: Can I say this please? And look, I understand religious conservatives and those who look at the issue of gay marriage from a religious standpoint. But I think where religious people are failing is that they are not articulating on a national level the outrage that we\u2019re seeing when it comes to heterosexual marriage, when it comes to our divorce rate. I mean, if you took the same level of energy that people of faith have towards gay marriage and apply that when it comes to saving marriages or keeping people from entering those marriages that end in divorce, we might see a change there as well.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Roland\u2026<\/p>\n

Mr. MARTIN<\/strong>: I believe if you are going to attack one, attack the other.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Okay, Roland, that\u2019s the last word.<\/p>\n

Mr. DIONNE<\/strong>: Amen.<\/p>\n

ABERNETHY<\/strong>: Thanks to Roland Martin joining us from Chicago, to Kim Lawton, and to E.J. Dionne.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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