{"id":2330,"date":"2009-08-07T03:00:21","date_gmt":"2009-08-07T08:00:21","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.pbs.org\/wnet\/religionandethics\/?p=2330"},"modified":"2013-05-10T15:14:53","modified_gmt":"2013-05-10T19:14:53","slug":"august-7-2009-joel-hunter-interview","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.pbs.org\/wnet\/religionandethics\/2009\/08\/07\/august-7-2009-joel-hunter-interview\/2330\/","title":{"rendered":" Joel Hunter Interview"},"content":{"rendered":"

Read more of Kim Lawton\u2019s February 12, 2009 interview with Joel Hunter in Lakewood, Florida.<\/strong><\/p>\n

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<\/strong>Joel Hunter<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/div>\n

Q: Tell me about Northland Church. Obviously, it\u2019s grown so quickly. It\u2019s so large. What need do you think the church is meeting? What is the niche that is really filled here?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: This sounds awful, but I think we\u2019re just a generic church. I think we care about people, we love people, we try to help them in their spiritual life, try to help them in their practical relationships. The thing that\u2019s probably a little bit different is that we\u2019re a distributed church in that we emphasize what goes on outside the building rather than what goes on inside the building, and we want to equip people for living great lives where they are. So we\u2019re constantly trying to get the resources to them in their everyday lives rather than making them come to a building. But we are just one of 300,000 churches in the US and we don\u2019t count ourselves any better or worse. We\u2019re bigger and we\u2019ve really never been able to figure out why. I got the statistics just for this month, and there is 1200 more attending this month this year than there were this month last year. Nobody can figure out why. We are not a \u201cchurch growth\u201d church. We just try to preach the best we can from Scripture, try to help people where they are in their lives and love them and encourage them\u2014people are desperate for encouragement\u2014and try to help the world get better. And whether that is about community service or it\u2019s about shaping social policy, whatever that\u2019s about, we are trying to make this world more like heaven. Jesus taught us to pray that \u201cthy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.\u201d So that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to do.<\/p>\n

Q: You have also used technology, especially online. Why did you choose to use that route to help minister to more people?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Most people don\u2019t really want to go into a church building. They have a very personal relationship with God, and they would rather be in a familiar territory when they worship. This goes a lot for the younger generation. My generation is kind of used to church, doing the \u201cchurch\u201d thing, but a lot of people aren\u2019t. So when we built this building we built it as a communications device, and the selling point to the congregation was you are not building a building that can just seat 3000 people at a time. We can seat three million people at a time if we have enough broadband, and we have enough people who can gather around a computer screen, worship with others, and so we have people worshipping in Starbucks. We\u2019ve had a person, when it came time to take membership vows, and he had to catch a plane, he was in the airport, he stood up in the airport and took his membership vows because he was online with us and he was going through the worship service with us. So we just wanted to not be geographically limited, and we have partners all over the world, and we don\u2019t want to be culturally limited either, so we will worship with them periodically. We worship with our partners in Egypt or Ukraine or other places, and they do the same. There\u2019s just a lot more of the church now that is using technology to build relationships, because people of my generation\u2014it was important to be in a building together. For people who are 30 years old, that screen is intimacy to them. I mean, that\u2019s a window to them, and there\u2019s nothing artificial to them about that, and so we just wanted to connect with as many people as we could.<\/p>\n

Q: Does that change the nature of what happens on Sunday morning, what happens inside the worship service?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: It does. We are very aware of the congregation that is not in this building. We have several different congregations in buildings around central Florida. We have probably 1200 or 1500 sites around the nation and the world at any given time worshipping with us in the worship service. So when we take Communion we say at the beginning, \u201cGet your Communion elements because we will be taking Communion together.\u201d When we ask for people to contribute, for example, their favorite Scripture on hope, we will have some people in the main headquarters sanctuary, so to speak, but we will have somebody from Germany: \u201cThis just in from Christina in Germany, this in from Suzie in South Dakota., this is from\u2026,\u201d and so all of them can participate whether or not they are onsite.<\/p>\n

Q: Shifting beyond here and looking at the evangelical world a little more broadly, I\u2019ve heard some people suggest that perhaps evangelicalism is in a bit of identity crisis right now, trying to figure out who they are, where they are going. Do you agree with that characterization?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Well, we like to call it growing up. I think there is an ever-maturing identity for evangelicals. I think especially in the political realm we went through a phase more recently when we were known for what we were against rather than what we were for. We were pretty narrow in what we were paying attention to rather than very broad. Now that wasn\u2019t true in Jesus\u2019 time, because Jesus was very broad in what he did, very positive, very loving. And so I think the church in different cultures goes through different phases according to what is happening in that culture. But I do think that evangelicalism is changing, and you will always have people who are just kind of staunch and, you know, mad: \u201cI want to talk about these, and anybody who doesn\u2019t agree with me probably isn\u2019t really, you know, on the mark.\u201d But I think much more of evangelicalism now, especially when you talk about the next generation, really isn\u2019t so bound up with some of the more institutional concerns. They really are saying, \u201cChurch? Fine. All the traditional things? Great. But just tell me how I can help. Tell me what I can do to be more like Jesus in world, to love people like he loved them, to serve people like he served them. It\u2019s much more important to me than knowing theological intricacies to be practically of use and of good.\u201d And so I think you\u2019re seeing a maturing of the movement right now.<\/p>\n

Q: I want to talk about politics in a minute, but what are the spiritual implications or challenges that go along with that kind of a shift?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: The spiritual challenge here is that you have to know Scripture well enough to go back to the source and to be able to focus on God instead of an institutional church. Not in lieu of, you know, the institutional church is still valuable. It\u2019s a place of belonging, it\u2019s a place of help, it\u2019s a place of teaching, but having said all that, if your emphasis is following God in your everyday life for the people who are right in front of you, then you\u2019re going to have to have the kind of relationship with God, a personal relationship with God, that doesn\u2019t require a church program in order for you to act. And so along with this maturing of evangelical Christianity, there has to be a more practical kind of education religiously. In other words, it can\u2019t be just \u201cI\u2019ve got to memorize the Apostle\u2019s Creed.\u201d It is, \u201cI\u2019ve got to know in this situation what would Jesus do and I\u2019ve got to take responsibility for doing it.\u201d And so that\u2019s kind of where things are going right now.<\/p>\n

Q: Some people are suggesting there is a leadership void compared to previous generations. Do you see that?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: It\u2019s always tricky when you talk about Protestantism, because we don\u2019t have a pope, you know? And with some of the passing of the old lions\u2014you know, the Billy Graham, Bill Bright, and some these old folks that everybody kind of looked to because they were world-famous leaders\u2014you do have another generation. And, again, with these past few decades people looked at some of the more public faces, the more mobilizing voices, the [Rev. D. James] Kennedys and the Falwells and all of the rest of the folks that really got a lot of media time. What you\u2019re seeing is a very solid group of evangelical leaders developing and kind of a new constituency growing up with a broader agenda. You will never see just one person leading the way, because evangelicals don\u2019t do that. We are much more collaborative in our leadership, much more appreciative of the differences, and we operate well in ambivalence. But what you will see is a new generation of leaders, some of them my age, some of the younger, because they\u2019re gifted, they have great visions, they mobilize great organizations. So that\u2019s what you\u2019re going to see in the years to come.<\/p>\n

Q: What are your hopes for Obama\u2019s faith advisory council that you\u2019re a part of?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: The hopes are very new, because this has just started, just started, so I\u2019m not sure of all of their hopes for this advisory council. I know we have been given four priorities, but there is a larger development here. First of all, I have great respect for the president, and I respect his personal belief in God and his desire to want to do the right thing as far as God is concerned, and I so respect his observation and respect for the largely religious character of this nation and his acknowledgment that you can\u2019t separate that religious character from political life, and so why not try to incorporate it in its breadth, in a broad spectrum, and use the mobilization possibilities to really get people of faith to serve and improve the nation? So I love that. That\u2019s what I would hope for this particular advisory council\u2014that we could work on a broad policy agenda that would mobilize people to actualize their faith. Now as a pastor, see, I always want to be of spiritual encouragement to someone, so I hope that along the way I could be of encouragement to the president\u2019s spiritual life, because that\u2019s what a pastor does. That\u2019s what we care about. But beyond that I\u2019m very excited about working with a very broad spectrum of people to see how our faith communities can really solve the problems, or help solve the problems of this country. The problems of this country and of the world are way too big for a government to solve, and way too big for faith communities to solve. We have to partner together, and if we can do it in ways that don\u2019t blur the lines between the institutions of religion and government, and that\u2019s very important, the institutions, I say, you know, not the individuals, because those lines are already blurred, but we\u2019ve got to watch the boundaries of church and state. Those are very important. But there is so much that can be done. I mean, 99 percent of the stuff that we do can be done without even going near the boundaries of church and state, because they can be personal, they can be community-based, they can be faith-based individually, and for us to feel like we\u2019re a part of solving the countries problems when we are in such deep weeds right now as a country, I mean economically, there\u2019s so many people hurting economically, there\u2019s so many people who are confused about the kind of lifestyle questions and the kind of cultural wars going on. If we can be called into service, then we cannot only help the country, we can help the church mature. This isn\u2019t just about helping the country. The church needs to mature itself. Sometimes I think people think the church can save the country, when really some types of political responsibility can help save the church from just dabbling in religious intricacies.<\/p>\n

Q: Is there a danger, though, that being in an official capacity, even though I understand it\u2019s not government employment, could in some way blunt or make one reluctant to perhaps be prophetic or to, as people say, speak truth to power? I\u2019ve had a conversation with someone who says no pastor or priest should be a part of something like that because then he or she can\u2019t really speak the truth to these people.<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Well, I agree that no coward should ever be part of something like this, but the president has made it very clear\u2014and this is another thing I like about him\u2014he is not looking for \u201cyes\u201d people here. He\u2019s looking for people on this council that will have a prophetic voice, and all of us made the agreement that we would not be on the council unless we could be blunt-honest about the dangers we saw, about what was not going right, and what we had real problems with, and probably what we couldn\u2019t participate in. And so there\u2019s not only a permission to be prophetic, there\u2019s a desire to hear that voice, because when that voice gets raised it\u2019s not just your voice; it\u2019s the constituency you come from, and any political leader, if he\u2019s honest, and if he wants what he\u2019s going to do to last, is going to have to hear what constituencies have to say, not just what people in his office will say in order to get into his good graces. So that is a danger, absolutely. But we\u2019ve addressed that, and we will continue to address that.<\/p>\n

Q: I interviewed some years ago a clergy member who was close to the Clintons. During a difficult time he was brought in as a spiritual advisor, and he was candid about sitting in the Oval Office and having the leader of the free world talk to him, and it\u2019s pretty heady stuff, and I\u2019m wondering if you\u2019re at all concerned about being pulled into that in a way that might change you in some way or have an effect on you.<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Yeah, you\u2019re always concerned about that. I mean, if you are human and you realize the position of power that this person has, then you are aware that this is an honor, this is a privilege, I mean, to be in the Oval Office, to walk in there and to look at that desk where the presidents have just signed these tremendous bills and have changed\u2014and all the people that have been in that Oval Office. There\u2019s a sense of history, and I was a history and government major, and so there\u2019s a real sense of privilege. However, you say all that, you can say all that, and you\u2019ve got to realize what happens with me personally, I just don\u2019t take myself that seriously. I mean, I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m somebody that\u2019s got that much power, or there\u2019s nothing else I want to get to, you know, I\u2019m going to be a pastor for the rest of my life. There\u2019s nothing I have to lose. Here\u2019s a guy that\u2019s going to be there eight years at the longest, you know? And so the idea here that goes through my mind is this is not the person that I\u2019m going to be answering to. That\u2019s a way higher thing, and on Judgment Day when I stand before God I\u2019m going to have to answer to what I\u2019ve said. If I didn\u2019t do things according to how I read them in Scripture, if I didn\u2019t voice the truth in love as I saw it in Scripture, then I\u2019m in judgment, I\u2019m in trouble on Judgment Day for my works, not for my sins those have been paid for by Christ, but for my works, so that\u2019s the accountability that I have, and for those of us that\u2014you know, most of the people in that room have been in positions of authority for a long time. That\u2019s why we\u2019re in that room, and so we\u2019re not quite as intimidated as\u2014I mean, we\u2019re used to talking with people in authority, we\u2019re used to having phone conversations where you get off the phone and you go, how did I get to be in this place that I just had that conversation? So it\u2019s not quite as intimidating as it might be, as it might seem, but yet you\u2019ve got to watch yourself, and I have to keep saying, \u201cLord, this is for you. I\u2019m here to do your work. I\u2019m here to be a voice for the gospel as well as I can,\u201d and if that gets me off the council in a record time, then I\u2019m off the council in a record time.<\/p>\n

Q: How do you stay spiritually grounded to have that kind of strength or fortitude?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Well, first of all it\u2019s important for me every day to spend a good deal of time in Scripture and in prayer. That\u2019s kind of like the, you know, I do the\u2014physically I work out every day, you know, so I can stay healthy. Spiritually that keeps me healthy; it keeps me oriented in the right direction. Secondly, I\u2019m surrounded by people who tell me the truth. My wife tells me the truth, but my wife is my biggest fan. She doesn\u2019t tell me the truth to take me down a peg or two. She just thinks I hung the moon. I have no idea why she thinks that. She\u2019s fooled herself all of these years, and I\u2019m not telling her anything different. But the point is that I don\u2019t have to seek approval of other people. I\u2019ve got a wonderful family, my wife and my kids and our grandkids, so it\u2019s not that I\u2019m looking for something else, and when you are satisfied with the love that you have, when you realize that you walk in the grace of God, when you realize that your family is just as crazy about you and you\u2019re crazy about your family, then it\u2019s fairly simple not to take yourself so seriously and have to be a world-changer and get all distracted with all of these grandiose ideals and ideas. You can just get up every day and do what\u2019s right with what\u2019s right in front of you, help out whoever you can, and go to bed every night and sleep like a baby, and so that\u2019s just\u2014I think I\u2019ve got a life like anybody else. I think what I do is not so different than anybody else, except maybe in different circles, but I just live my life as best I can, and I just pray that I\u2019ll do God some good.<\/p>\n

Q: You\u2019ve been active in some interfaith circles. I know you\u2019ve worked on Islamic-US issues and other interfaith things. How do you relate across religious lines, offering respect to people you differ with theologically without in some way compromising your own faith or what you believe to be truth? How do you walk that line? A lot of people have a hard time figuring out how to do that.<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: First of all, it\u2019s fairly simple to maintain respect and even admiration when you get to know people. I love these guys, I really do. I mean these other faith leaders, as I listen to them I\u2019m much more fascinated in listening to their stories and their perspectives. I need their perspectives to get a fuller picture of who God is as a Christian, I mean, because it\u2019s not like God is absent or God has somehow avoided Muslims or Jews or all the rest of these folks. They have a faith that I think appreciates a side of God that I could find in Christianity, but I see it more readily when I\u2019m with them. So in a way they are a spiritual mentor to me. Having said that, though, Christianity is a faith of relationships, of a personal relationship with God made possible through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, so therefore, as I have these relationships with other faith leaders, as they get closer, we are very free in talking about what we believe and about\u2014I am more free many times in talking in about what Christ has done for me and about what price he paid on the cross for all people with another religious leader who wants to hear what I want to say. He doesn\u2019t want me to tip-toe around it; he wants me to be honest. I\u2019m sometimes more free with a person like that than I am with a person in an elevator where he may have been a Christian a long time ago, and my eye starts twitching when I start talking about it. So the point here is that the better relationship you build, the more free you are to share with people what you really believe, and then you let God take care of the rest. It\u2019s not my job to convert people, you know? Only God can move in the spirit to change somebody\u2019s heart and establish a relationship. I can\u2019t do that, so I don\u2019t have to worry about it. I just love them and serve them as best I can, and we swap stories, and I leave the rest to God.<\/p>\n

Q: How serious do you think the issues of these interfaith relations are in our world today?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: I think they are absolutely critical for the future. I cannot picture a long-lasting peace without religious leaders having actual relationship together and caring about one another, because if all you have are these tender and vulnerable treaties, you know, these diplomatic papers, and you still have a bunch of people at these grass roots or a bunch of religious leaders that not only distrust people who are different but that are angry at people who are different, then that peace isn\u2019t going to last very long at all, and we\u2019ll never be able to cooperate in solving some of the larger problems of the world. However, if faith leaders and ultimately people of different faiths can serve together, can get to know each other on a personal basis, can appreciate each other as a person and as a person of faith, I\u2019m telling you, that will move the ball down the field when it comes to world peace. So I just don\u2019t see long-lasting peace in any section of the world happening without faith-based community relationships, interfaith relationships.<\/p>\n

Q: What have you learned from your relationships, especially with Muslims, which has been a particularly tense one in our country?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Yeah, it has, and I have such a deep appreciation for my relationships with Muslim leaders. First of all, they are very honest about what they think and about\u2014Christians by and large are scared to death of Muslims. But Muslims have at least been trained as to respect Jesus. They believe Jesus was a prophet. They believe in the virgin birth. They believe in many of the issues, and so for many Muslims it\u2019s good to talk with a Christian. What are we scared about here? In this culture, we have been so slanted by the association of Islam with terrorism that we\u2019re very reluctant to have that conversation. So every conversation I get in, it\u2019s really one of respect. Muslims have a tremendous reverence for God, tremendous reverence for God, and I love that, and they have\u2014they really want to know what you think, and how we can work together, and what are we afraid of here? So I have built several very close relationships in the Muslim world, a very close relationship with an imam here in town. He\u2019s one of my very good friends. We do a lot together. I love him, and I love his family. The same ob-gyn delivers his babies that deliver my grandbabies. We\u2019ve just got this relationship. So basically what I\u2019ve learned is we\u2019re trying to love God as best we can, and we\u2019re trying to work together to love other people.<\/p>\n

Q: We have footage of a recycling event your church has done, and I know this has been an issue for you quite some time\u2014creation care. I am wondering if you are seeing with the evangelical world a greater embrace of this issue. For a long time there just seemed to be a real reluctance to get involved. Are you seeing that change, and have you felt that impact<\/strong>?<\/p>\n

A: There is a change. Again, this may have to be a generational change, but we\u2019re talking more and more with leaders. We just hosted an event last week of evangelical leaders here addressing just exactly that challenge. There\u2019s two problems here. First of all, people are generally ignorant about the science. All they hear are the sound bites on the radio and the sound bites on the television, and they have been linking this issue with a political agenda rather than an actual consensus of science, and so many evangelical Christians are reluctant to see this as a consensus, so there\u2019s a lot of teaching that needs to be done. The second problem is people really don\u2019t address a problem until it\u2019s an emergency, and so they\u2019ll look out the window and say, \u201cMan, it really looks cold out there. Must not be global warming, you know?\u201d And they\u2019ll read this stuff that says coldest January on record and say pshaw, and so instead of understanding this is not about global warming, it\u2019s about global weirding, about the nonlinear effects of climate change, and there are very many new nuances of climate change and understanding the interaction of a very complex system, but yet the ultimate and undeniable effect that this is going to have on the poor\u2014they just kind of brush it off, so we have our work laid out for us. But I do believe that, again, this administration is going to be helpful because they take the problem seriously, and maybe as more and more leaders acknowledge the problem the general population will, too, but in the evangelical world we\u2019re still having a push back.<\/p>\n

Q: Our show did a survey<\/a> which found that larger numbers of younger evangelicals do see things like the environment and poverty as pro-life issues.<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Exactly. Again, this goes along with expanding the issue, not in lieu of, not denying the others. Pro-life is very important and will always remain in the foreseeable future a central issue for me and other evangelical leaders. But to expand the pro-life movement to the life outside the womb, to understand that 5,000 children under five die every day from poverty-related causes, directly related to poverty, that\u2019s a pro-life issue; to understand that AIDS is a pro-life issue; to understand that climate change, to understand that even in some instances our issues with immigration, all these other issues, certainly peace, world peace\u2014pro-life issues. These should be just as important to us, those lives should be just as important to us as the baby in the womb, and so we just have to expand that picture.<\/p>\n

Q: I want to ask you about your prayer at the Democratic Convention. The issue is always whether or not to pray in Jesus\u2019 name, and you chose to work around that. What kind of reaction did you get?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: Oh, on the one side I had a wonderful encouragement, especially from non-Christians and from many Christians who understood what I was doing. I got raked over the coals with a lot of Christians because I didn\u2019t hijack the prayer and only pray it for Christians. But as I explained, several things: first of all, we did get, the Christians got to say \u201cin Jesus\u2019 name,\u201d so we didn\u2019t deny anybody that, and if you were there the stadium was booming with that. By the same token, to make somebody or to cow somebody to silence as you pray in Jesus\u2019 name, or to somehow make them seem like they\u2019re praying in Jesus\u2019 name, is really a sacrilege because only Christians can pray in Jesus\u2019 name. It\u2019s in the power of Jesus, so it\u2019s the wrong way to use that ending. If you\u2019re serious about it you can\u2019t use it asking people who don\u2019t believe it to say it. Ultimately, the greatest thing about this was that not only was it a prayer appropriate for a public venue where people had different faith traditions, but my wife sat beside a lady on a plane on the way back, and she said, \u201cYour husband was the one who said that prayer?\u201d and she said \u201cYeah.\u201d She said, \u201cI was so shocked that an evangelical would respect those of us, I\u2019m an atheist, but I was so shocked that an evangelical would actually respect me enough not to make me go there and not hijack that prayer.\u201d And Becky said, because she\u2019s just really interested in people, \u201cTell me about what you believe, tell me why you\u2019re an atheist.\u201d Well, they talked for the whole plane ride, and by the time the plane landed the lady goes, \u201cI live 30 minutes from your church. Give me your address, and I\u2019m going to show up just to check it out.\u201d Well, I mean, just the\u2014this isn\u2019t about who gets converted, this is about someone feeling respected enough that they would give a window in their life, as it was very apparent from the beginning of that conversation that she wanted nothing to do with the evangelicals, but because I had respected her then there\u2019s some openness to say, well, maybe we can have a relationship. That was wonderful.<\/p>\n

Q: As you\u2019ve done interviews and gotten more attention, people around the country are getting to know you. I\u2019m wondering what you feel people don\u2019t know about you that you wish they did, as they\u2019re making judgments and assumptions?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A: You know, I don\u2019t\u2014I have no desire for people to really know who I am. I\u2019m an\u2014you wouldn\u2019t believe this, but I\u2019m an introvert. I could spend all day in a library and just be perfectly content, as long as my wife was one stack over. These things really stretch me, you know. I feel like I\u2019m put here for a reason, but I\u2019m not a very self-revealing person. I just do what I can, and there\u2019s really not much there to know, honestly. I\u2019m just real simple. I get up every day and I eat and I study and I talk to people and I try to help where I can, so there\u2019s not much to find out.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Read more of Kim Lawton\u2019s February 12, 2009 interview with Joel Hunter in Lakewood, Florida. Joel Hunter Q: Tell me about Northland Church. Obviously, it\u2019s grown so quickly. It\u2019s so large. What need do you think the church is meeting? … More →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":56,"featured_media":16472,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[17916,17926,5849,5736,17911,5850],"class_list":["post-2330","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-evangelical","tag-interfaith","tag-joel-hunter","tag-megachurch","tag-muslim","tag-northland-church","topics-faith-and-spirituality","faith-protestant"],"yoast_head":"\nAugust 7, 2009 ~ Joel Hunter Interview | August 7, 2009 | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly | PBS<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\""People think the church can save the country, when really some types of political responsibility can save the church," says megachurch pastor Joel Hunter\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, 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