Transcript of interview with Katie Gentile In a video-taped interview, Dr Katie Gentile reflects on
the actions of the characters in the video, "Cliques - Behind the Labels".
Katie provides feedback in her professional capacity as counselling psychologist.
Video clips from the interview were used for the "Cliques Online"
lesson plan.
Q:
What's the difference between groups and cliques?
Well
the difference between different kinds
of groups and cliques is arbitrary perhaps, but I think there is a contiuum
of groups and hmmm, while we all tend to fall into groups of people that have
things like us or have similar interests there's a difference between a group
that can tolerate difference can allow you to grow versus one that cannot
tolerate difference, that really constricts your identity, or yourself. And
that may the difference when we talk about cliques and teenage adolescent
years especially.The cliques often tend to hmm maybe, ah constrict growth
not always allow for difference or tolerate difference, or tolerate growth
and change in the individual members.
Do
you think cliques or groups are inevitable.
I
don't know if cliques and groups are inevitable. In some ways we are very
social. My, my perspective is that, we only, come into being in relationships, so groups are really important.
We grow up in families, whether it is extended families or small families,
we group, So I guess in that sense yes. How they look is a function of the
culture.
Q:
You were saying groups are a function of the culture.
Groups
reflect the culture, is what I mean. So for our culture, for the way cliques
look now hmm I think there's a lot of rigidity.
Q:
Can you give me an example of that, from the video?
03:16 One of the groups that comes to mind as far
as exemplifying rigidity within the
group, and ahmm, identity within the group and constriction of identity would
be the group of the popular young
women.
One
of them mentions that they wish they had the freedom to go to school in sweats,
and when they've done that they get a lot of flack. People kind of make fun
of them and ask them if they're sick. And they get a lot of negative attention
when they try to change or be something other than what is expected of them.
And they talked being able, not having the flexibility to go to school, you
know, in a way that reflected their mood, or in a way that they want, that
they have to live up to someone else's expectations.
Q:
Is this one of the negative features of cliques, and if so how would it affect
them?
Ye,
I think that is a negative aspect of cliques, because they are not allowed
to be themselves, they are not allowed to figure out who they are, they are
not allowed to, ahhm to go to school and do what they want. She describes
in that same clip, she talks about having to meet other people's expectations,
not being able to go to school and wear what she wants, having to worry about
what other people think about her and having to work really hard to get people
to see inside her, because in the end she knows she's only friends with the
people in her clique because of how she looks. And that to me sounded very
profound, statement about really not having who she is, taken seriously or
not even acknowledged or recognized that she is recognized and labeled and
related to as if she is just a shell
Q:
So taking Elizabeth and on of the popular girls as an example, what could
be a solution to that kind of situation.
05:44.
That's a good question. I think it is a difficult task to figure out how to
help them ahhm find more freedom within
that group, because maybe the group doesn't allow for freedom.
Take
2
06:13
the group of popular young women didn't allow themselves much freedom. Even
in the video you see them all putting on makeup, they're all trying on each
other's clothes, they're all sitting on the bed. I mean there is just so much
homogeneity in what they're doing and talking about and worried about, so
I think it would take a lot of courage in some ways to really work with one
of them. I think it depends on how unhappy they are with the situation. But
I'm not sure where I'm going with this 06:46
Q:
If we look at Missy and Elizabeth in the group, they sort of feel constricted
within their group. How do we begin to deal with those problems of constriction
in their lives. How do they start?
Well
I think the important is that it would be a problem: the constriction is a problem. When they feel
that constriction is the problem, as ahhmm, one of the young women did mention
was beginning to feel that she was constricted, or she felt that it wasn't
fair that she couldn't be herself all the time, Then I think going out, getting
outside of the group to realize that there are other people who wear sweats to school, or what is so bad about
not meeting someone else's expectations. Could she decide to maybe sometimes
to do something for herself and not be so concerned about what someone else
might think. But I think she needs to be exposed to, ahh, other groups who
aren't so concerned about that. Because in that group I think it really does
domino. I mean, it really is difficult to think outside of the group if the
group is that constricting. It is not merely a matter of her saying oh,
I've really had enough of this I'm gonna leave, it can be very constricting.
Q:
Going on to the positive side of cliques, what would you say are the positive
attributes of this social phenomenon?
I think there are lots of positive sides to groups and cliques at this age,
especially, you're talking about an age in the majority Western culture,
it is not universal but certainly here, there's a sense of you go from
your family to the world. And school is that intermediary where you learn
about the world and socialization and you're really trying to move from the
family group to trying to be able to make your own friends… and a teenage
clique is part of that it is where you learn to experiment with different
kinds of identities, different ways of being. What kind of friends do you
want? Like, who do you want to be, what do you want to do in your life. What
things are important to you? Like what Juli found, what are your talents,
are you gonna be a musician, what are you good at?
So,
it's really time also to be, have
the safety of a group that can really be like a family and this is going towards
a group that enhances growth, where you feel secure enough to take risks with
who you are.
Q:
…You mention identity. Where do we see the development of identity within
the group, coz I didn't see Juli as so much as in the group?
I
think you're right. Juli takes her own route, which is to find a social worker
and through that she then finds a group. But I think Geoffrey?, ye Geoffrey,
talks about opening up, being less shy with one of his friends and through
that friend he met a whole bunch of new friends, and, within that group he
began to feel that he was okay, that he found a group that was friends because
they liked eachother, they liked who they were, they weren't concerned with
what they looked like. And what kinds of clothes they wore and the haircuts
they had, that this was a group that was concerned about who they really were.
And I thought that was really moving moment where he talks about being exposed
to this group of friends, and that’s where you see them in the video, where
in the past he was almost being chased down the hall with his pizza, getting
harassed, by these kids. And here there was a moment, in the same place where
he is in the cafeteria eating, and he is surrounded by friends.
Q:
But how did he get there. He went on a journey right. What happened to him.
How can we describe what he went through. Where did he reach a turning point?
It sounded from the video that Geoffrey's turning point in really being able
to break out of his isolation was not easy, and I could really appreciate,
and I thought he was really insightful, that he could talk about the risks
involved in resisting the kids who were making fun of him, the students who
were making fun of him, because he makes a point of saying that it wasn't
safe to do it, that there was no way of fighting back, because he didn't know
if the kids were going to hurt him, [ to Veronica the other students,
sorry] if they would try to beat him up if they had a knife, there
were a lot of things that he rallied off that might be reasons why he wouldn't
fight back, but he mentions that he realized that he couldn't stay at home
any longer and read, because it wasn't getting any better. He wasn't happy,
he wasn't feeling better about himself and that he decided to take a risk.
And I think, he says it himself, "I decided to take a risk and talk more
and open up to a friend of mine who I had never really opened up to.
[poster
in background comes undone, breaks out in laughs]
Geoffrey was really, I thought insightful. He describes the difficulties in
really going against a group. Even though he is not in a group and he is tormented
by groups, he says there's a lot of risk in resisting them, in speaking back
to them, that he didn't know if they would hurt him more, would they make
more fun of him, do they carry knives, was he going to get beaten up, so he
felt very powerless. But he also said that the turning point came when he
realized that he couldn't sit at home all weekend and just read and that wasn't
getting any better and that nothing was improving and that he wasn't feeling
better about himself and that wasn't changing, being made fun of, so he felt
like he needed to take a risk, to open up more, being less shy around a friend
of his, who he did feel somewhat more secure around. And when he did that,
the friend became a better friend. And then he met his friend's friends and
then he was accepted into a group.
Q:So
groups are not always such a negative thing?
No,
I think they are quite transformative. In fact one of the things that I find
beautiful about Geoffrey and Juli and Frank and the Latino guys, whose names
I don't know
The
beautiful thing about Juli, Danny and Dave, Frank and Geoffrey is that, ahhm
they don't do what so many teenagers, I think,
get in trouble with and that is that you have to go it alone that you
have to make yourself better before you can have a good relationship, that
they found themselves through the relationship, through relationships and
I think that's primary, that's a primary thing to learn, I think. Groups are
incredibly important and they are very informative and that's the way you
heal.
Q:
You know there's a part in the video where Frank makes a reference to Goths.
Some people get into it and get lost, think they're vampires. What does that
say about identity formation?
The
way identity can really be formed by groups is really important. And I think,
There's the point in the video where Frank talks about some people getting
so involved in the Goth scene that they lose themselves. And they begin to
think they are vampires or begin to identify themselves as vampires and he
also talks about being, some people get depressed as part of the whole gothic
imagery and role, and I think, ahhm it needs to be seen as a continuum coz
I think it is easy to say, oh my gosh, someone like that, it’s crazy, but
it's only crazy because it is so, because it is not part of the mainstream
necessarily to think that you are a vampire,or to be a Goth.
Q:
Can you take it again from the example?
I
think groups and identity are really illustrated by some people loose themselves
in groups, and loose themselves in the Goth group and begin to think they
are vampires or begin to get depressed as part of the Goth identity, and that
is really, we can look at that and think, oh it's crazy, but the thing that
makes it crazy is that it is about being a vampire, not that you loose yourself
in the group, because you could look at the jocks, the self-identified jocks
and say well they've lost themselves in their identity on some level. Well,
they're jumping around, grunting in some way, really being what, in my mind
what would be a very stereotypical jock, complaining about being stereotyped
as a jock.
Yet,
they are performing this Jock stereotype and that's in fact pretty much all
that we get from them, on the video is in
the sense that they are tough guys and really struggling with this idea of
masculinity in a way, about a performance of activity and tough activity,
and that is just as profoundly lost in
some ways, because there is no way for them to be other than that and you
get Frank who is also performing masculinity
but he is wearing makeup and he is wearing capes and he is a guy he's got
a girlfriend, not that all guys need girlfriends. He's a heterosexual guy
with a girlfriend (laughs)
In
some ways you'd see him as a stereotypical high school kid except for the
appearance
I think that the Jocks, losing yourself
in the group, that's having the group constrict around one single identity
is really exemplified with the Jocks and the popular girls and the way their
identity is cohered around a certain
kind of appearance. Whereas, the loners who didn't fit in such as Frank or
Juli or ahhm Geoffrey, perhaps I should just stick with Frank or Juli, or
for instance (laughs)
The
thing about Frank and his identity is that seems more fluid. He has a more
fluid sense of identity. He can be a young man in school, a stereotypical,
heterosexual young man in school with a girlfriend but he wears make up. In
fact we watch him put on make up, much like we watch the popular girls put
on make up. But this is a young man and he has quite an interesting and much
more fluid identity in some ways of what it means to be masculine for him.
And he can wear a cape, he can wear a necklace and he can wear jewelry and
there is a fluidity in that, I think a freeing fluidity in that. And, similarly to Juli. On some level she has identified herself has
a young woman but she is not stuck in the appearance. She mentions it. Ye,
she mentions other people commenting on her appearance but she is more involved
in, more invested in, in her artwork; the things she can do, the things she
can produce, create which is very different in the way the young women in
the popular group talked - They did
not talk once about anything that they actually created, did or enjoyed, it
was all about others perceived them which is a very stereotypical rigid and
dangerous way of femininity, of being a young woman, because that does fall
into the stereotypical category of being for someone else's gaze; the way
other people want you to be.
Q:
Would you say that Frank and Juli are happier despite their problems?
I think whether this illustrates their wholeness or their well-roundedness.
Frank and Juli in this sense, Frank and Juli could be perceived as more well-rounded,
and even though they are the ones who have identified as being depressed,
having difficulties in high school, they are also the ones who have kind of,
they are also the ones who because they have a more fluid sense of identity
a more fluid way of being and they are relying, they are looking at themselves
as more than one rigid thing like a Jock or a pretty young woman because they
are much more varied. My guess is
that they are much more * what's that word, sorry (laughs)
that even though they are the ones who have had the identified crisis, they
are also more well-rounded, and thus probably more able to handle the problems
they are going to deal with in life, because they are not based on one rigid
identity: they are fluid, they are flexible and can tolerate the gray areas
of life and tolerate when things aren't rigid.
Q:
What were the factors that allowed Frank, Juli and Geoffrey to break through,
you think?
I really think. The thing about Frank, Geoffrey and Juli and the way they
describe their crises, and they way describe coming out of them is that they
all managed to reach out to other people to help them. They all mentioned
reaching out to somebody to help them get out of their isolation.
And
I think this is really important again because too many teenagers feel they
have to deal with it themselves. They blame themselves they think of it as
their fault. They can't get out alone. Noone can get out alone. You must reach
out for help and that is really important and each of them realize that at
some point. With Geoffrey, he realized. He described realizing it when he
was sitting at home reading and realizing things weren't getting any better
noone was, he was still being teased - noone was not teasing him at school
and he had to reach out, so he trusted a friend. He decided to really
try to see if the friend he had could become a better friend. And that
friend became a better friend, introduced him to his friend now he is in a
group and this group accepts him as he is and now he feels more comfortable
with himself.
With
Juli, a very similar thing. She didn't reach out to a group, she reached out
to a social worker in school and she made a point of saying that because a
social worker in school would know who the cliques were and would understand
the dynamics of the school which is also a very important and viable solution
to get help within a school, so you get people who know your tormentors or
people who know the dynamics of the school and with the social worker she
began to experiment with herself, realizing that she loved to do art and that
she was good at it and that and she loved to do music and she was good at
that too and suddenly her self esteem was based on what she could create instead
of the fact that wasn't as pretty as some of the other women.
So
again there's the gender role shifting iIt's not about being the beauty queen
and pleasing other people, meeting other people's expectations about how you should look; it's suddenly about
what you can create and her talents, which is a big shift for some young women,
and that really she felt she could meet the world. She got a hair style that
I guess liked better hmm and began to feel freer to meet friends in school,
so that was a big change for her. And then Frank described [pause]
And
then Frank similarly described having to trust people. And with him it was
kind of a gruesome story because he found a dead rat in his locker. But he
realized that staying quiet wasn't ending people stereotypes about him, that
he was going to have to talk to people, to get them to realize that he wasn't
just this Goth guy, that he was actually a nice guy who was very insightful
and who had a lot to give and then he began to realize that people responded
to him warmer. He took a risk he obviously was afraid that they would respond
badly and he said he was surprised when they responded warmly, not all of
them as he said, but enough to make him feel more comfortable so that he too
was able to develop a circle of friends that would accept him.
What
responsibility did they have to dispel the stereotype
I
think the thing that is very important also is that these three people illustrate
is that Frank, Geoffrey and Juli were negotiating what control they had over
how they were labeled and how they were stereotyped and how people interacted
with them. And while this never takes away the responsibility from the other
students for being downright cruel to them at times that's not their fault,
but on some level by hiding it wasn't getting better; they had to take, they
had to measure their own effectiveness in the situation: what could they do
to change the situation and control the situation?
And
part of it was reaching out and opening up so that they would take control
of how they were interacted with and how people viewed them so that it would
be more than just an appearance.
Q:
So, if you could sum that up by saying they took charge of the situation
The
three of them they took action on the situation, so that they could begin
to have more control of how the others saw them because they were showing
other parts of themselves, they weren’t being just a Goth image walking through
the hallway. Frank actually began to talk to people (television booms in adjacent
room. Interview stops).
I think there's a common theme with Geoffrey, Frank and Juli and that they each could negotiate how people could label them...
So,
the thing about Frank and Juli is that they found a way to negotiate control
over the situation - that when they were walking down the hall and not interacting
with people, they weren't dispelling any myths or stereotypes about who they
were which doesn't mean they were playing into them but they certainly weren't
doing anything to dispel them and that by opening their mouths and talking
to people, they were three dimensional people that had a lot to give.
Q:
So communication is key to all this?
Ye,
communication and interacting with people, really reaching out again and communicating
with people opening your mouth and not, it is not about not letting yourself
be stereotyped, because you can't always control that, but realizing what
your participation could be in that.
Q:
What is their participation?
Well,
creating the identity and also maintaining it is one-dimensional. Part of
the idea of labels and cliques and stereotypes is that for instance you look
at a popular young woman and you say all she cares about is her appearance.
Well we did have one moment in this, they are very concerned about appearance
of course, but they're actually thinking on a deeper level. They're stuck
they feel stuck, she doesn't know ho w she can go to school as herself because
she has to meet everybody else's expectations.
35:49
With Frank people began to talk to him and people didn’t relate to him just
as this Goth with all their stereotypes projected on to him. Instead he became
a person who happens to dress the way he dresses, who happens to like the
music he likes and who happens to be involved in this kind of group that he
is involved in, that didn't mean that that is all he could do [36:09] He became
a fuller person to other people as well.
Q:
There's a difference in the way Juli, Geoffrey, Frank handle their problems
and the way Olga handles her problems. How can we understand the negative
response she says she gets from people
36:55
Olga's response differs from the other three, the other identified loners,
Geoffrey, Frank and Juli in that, Olga also has a friend, but who is like
her. She doesn't seem to reach out to dispel any myths about her, she doesn't
open up to other students. She opens up in front of the video camera and talks
a little about being the sane one on some level, that she is as normal as
everyone else, but ahmm, we don't get the sense that she is necessarily talking
to people in her class, which is her choice,
[but
I'm not sure what to do with this]
[Pauses
to talk with interviewer, Veronica
38:26
From the way we see her in the video I'm not sure how Olga has dealt with
her status kind of as someone who is considered different and someone who
is stereotyped by the kids at school. We do see that she has a friend who
shares here interests, who she seems comfortable with and who she sees as
a friend, but there is a sense where the other three, Frank, Geoffrey and
Juli, found people to reach out to, and that changed their situation we don't
see in the video whether she does
or does not reach out and change her situation, or not solely whether she
wants to change her situation, ahhm she certainly looks much more different
than the other students, even the loner-identified and hers is self-made.
I think there is also a difference between someone like Geoffrey who is made
fun of for being himself [39:18] and someone like Olga is made fun of for
piercing. Ahhm, again, which doesn't mean she deserves to be made fun of it
just means there's a difference whether that piercing expresses her own feeling
of being so different and whether she is trying to keep others away or make
sure that people like her she is going to keep friends with, it isn't certain
but there is a big difference there [39:49]
Q:
Can you explain the young man's development?
40:46
The conversations between Danny and David in the video are very important
and really describe the beginning of empathy in a way. And also though, the
power of the clique, because Danny really describes feeling empowered by being
able to make fun of somebody, by being able to verbally harass and abuse a
student who he thinks is below him in some level [41:14] So he gets to raise
himself above another student and gets to feel powerful in doing that and
he gets even more power because his friends, the rest of his group, can see
that he is really tough [41:25] and he is really strong and he is better than
the other student. And he describes this which shows a lot of self awareness
in this whole process, that there is something that is not only being identified
as a clique and having others around you reflect that you are okay, because
you are like them, but it is also being able sometimes, being able to put
other people down. 41:50 as a clique, which gives you even more status and
more power and more sense of self-esteem but as Danny says, the self-esteem
is not very solid, because he feels bad about it. He describes beginning to
feel remorseful and feeling like he shouldn't have to get self-esteem that
way, that it made him feel bad to make fun of this kid and he began, really,
and you could see him struggling, to begin to describe feeling empathy for
having made someone else feel bad just so that he could feel good [42:25]
There was something wrong about that this wasn't a way to feel good about
yourself or to have self-esteem. In fact, it backfired and he didn't feel
good about himself.
43:20
Another example of the constriction of groups is with Danny, the interaction
between Danny and David, when he says he wouldn't say hi to somebody who his
group wouldn't accept. So, if he was passing someone in the hall, he wouldn't
say hi, they might think badly of him, they might excise him from the group.
43:39 get rid of him whatever, and David, whoops, no Danny responds by saying
that is ridiculous that if he wants to say hi to them in the hall then he
says hi to them. And like he says, what are his friends going to do disregard
him because he said hi? So, there's a power that David really gives the group
even about something as simple as a greeting, a greeting to somebody, whereas
you can see Danny kind of is getting rid of some of the power that the group
has over him for identity: he begins to question that, well like it's really
ridiculous, if they're really friends of mine, then they're not going to quit
being my friends because I say hi to someone; but that's not a good enough
reason to quit being my friend.
[44:22]
So he takes power away from the group, Again, kind of making them move to
being more like what he wants to do and what makes him feel better, which
is what he did when he realized that doing something that the clique would
do something that the group would do, such as making fun of someone else didn't
make him feel good, therefore he wouldn't do it, even though his group might
tell him to. That there was a sense of beginning to differentiate himself
from the group, which doesn't mean he has to leave the group, but that beginning
to see that he doesn't have to do this, it doesn't make him feel good
45:25
Well it definitely seems that Danny has a more solid sense of himself, ahhm,
outside of the group, that whether the group is there or not, he seems to
exist he seems to have a solid sense of himself, he knows what he doesn't
like he knows what he's not comfortable doing and he knows what he wants to
do. He might want to say hi to someone,
he doesn't like having to put down people. These are all things that he is
getting to realize that he doesn't like, which is he is identifying his feelings,
he is beginning to label them, and he's really deciding what he wants; he's
not letting the group rule him. Whereas, it seems David is really stuck in
believing the group, following the group and not really labeling his emotions.
He didn't talk about what he felt, what he wanted 46:04 It was all what the
group wanted and the group did not want him to say hi to somebody, so he didn't
say hi to somehody.
Q:
Is it personal growth that allows you to stand back so much?
46:52
There's a certain amount of solidity, security, in yourself to differentiate
yourself from the group like that. I think the group also needs to be able
to move a little. I don't know if they were describing the same group, - actually,
if they were that would be pretty interesting; because they experience things
so differently.
48:24 I think what this whole video is talking about
on some level is how can you be in a group but still have some individuality,
how can you be in a group and not be ruled by the group, because it can be
dangerous, the group can make you do things that you don't want to do, it
can incite you to do things that you don't want to do, and we certainly have
a history of that 48:43 ahh, People's
history, human history of that, but there's a good example with Danny and
David, where Danny is really beginning to que.., really to find himself within
the group. And I think it, groups are really important I don’t think you're
going to find yourself reading at home as Geoffrey found out as you know the
others find out, it doesn't work, but to find a group where there's give, where there's allowance for individual
growth, where if you change, the group will still accept you and that's okay,
49:17 and the group may actually come along with you. This is neat. Juli is
suddenly in to music, maybe I can do music too or maybe I can do art, where
there's really life basically, movement, where things aren't stagnant 49:34
that the group that is stagnant is where the jocks have to be jocks, have
to be tough, have to be men, and they have to do what jocks do, and the girls
have to look pretty 49:44 I mean that's
stagnant, they can't be anything but that 49:50 They're not individual, they're
really stuck being what the group wants them to be and what other people want
them to be as a stereotype too of what a popular girl is, whereas groups that
really allow individuals to exist
and still be in a group.
Q:
Can you summarize, using Danny as an example, of the best way to go about
negotiating one's position within a group?
51:02
For instance with Danny he is beginning to be to be himself within a group,
to realize he does not want to behave in a way maybe the way that some of
his other group members behave and that that's okay, he's listening to what
he feels, he's not letting himself do things within the group that don't feel
right to him, and that's really important.
He's doing what the popular young women can't do. They won’t let themselves
wear sweats because even though they want to and that feels right on a certain
morning, they won't let themselves because they're afraid of the consequences
51:37.
Whereas
Danny is somehow saying, well what are the consequences, are they really going
to disown me, are they going to kick me out of the group, because I don't
do what they want me to do.51:46 So, he is kind of reaching a different level
where he is really trying to find himself within the group to find what he
wants to do, who he wants to be, how he wants to act and what makes him happy
as well as maintaining friendships within the group 52:03 and probably undoubtedly
challenging his group at the same time, depending on how many people in the
group are at that point also beginning to challenge some of the group rules
for behavior, 52:18 but I do think (I don't know if I can put this in, I do
think there's a privilige in being able to do that; Danny feels secure somehow
there's a security that he's able to do it…52:30 I don’t want to go into all
that.
52:44 Danny.. In
a way he's more mature. He's also a boy, a guy. There's more ways of
being boys. There's more varied ways of being men than there are varied ways
of being women. 52:54
Q:
Can you explain that a little?
That,
I don't know if you want to put that one on, that's my own personal thing,
at least in some ways, for me for
a white women . Ahhm, in the sense because that is what I know, I'm a white
woman obviously.53:09
53:13
For instance, there's only one white woman who is able to fight the group,
successfully, and still have friends,
and that's Juli. We've got so many different ways of being male described
in this video. There's Frank who wears makeup and capes and listens to this
kind of very tough music in some ways, yet he wears a lot of make up yet he
is a stereotypical, heterosexual guy who has a
girlfriend. So, he doesn't look like a Jock. 53:40. Then we have the Jocks
who are the prototypical you know, sports fanatic young men. Then we have
Geoffrey, who's like probably very studious, who probably has friends who
are very smart. They're not good in sports, as he says, so they are different
kinds of boys, or young men.
54:06
But for the women we don't have that, still don't, have that breath of being
a young women, in a way, in the video. We have the popular young women who
are obsessed with their appearance their clothes, they put on a lot of make
up; they have drawers of make up. They made a point of showing that one, and
all their clothes they try on - it is a slumber party, a stereotypical slumber
party, sans the pillow fight (laughs) [54:30], whereas, and then there's Juli.
And Juli describes going to school and wearing really big pants and hair in
her face and people called her a boy. 54:46 So, I mean, there wasn't even
room in the vocabulary for what a girl might look like who wore baggy pants
and wore her hair in her face. Instead, she became a boy. 54:56 So in some
ways, the constrictions on the young women at least within the video are pretty
profound, all the way across, ahhm as far as their ability to really negotiate
being a young woman. 55:13
I
mean, Juli really does seem to find her way through the social worker, but,
ahhm, and she does seem a lot more comfortable with herself as a young woman;
she's showing her face and she seems to feel better about herself. Otherwise,
there's only two, three, then there's Olga, who
Q:How
do we see her now?
55:40
I'm not sure, but she wears make up but she doesn't wear it the way the others
wear it. You pretty much see the piercings and not her face, in a way. There's
one thing to say that piercing can be ornaments and can make her feel good
about herself, but there's another thing where, where it is really hard to
see her. Who is she? We don't get a sense of who she is what makes her happy.
We know what doesn't make her happy. 56:11 She's a reactor in some ways. 56:13.
She's reacting to the kids who tell her who she is, But we don't get a sense
of who she is what she wants really.
Q:
Would you say that it is easier for men to grow than for women?
56:35
I don't know if it is easier for men to grow than for women in this culture,
but it seems like within this video there seems to be more models, more varied
models in a way, of the men trying to figure out who they are, the young men
being able to figure out who they are, more flexibility on some level, more
different ways of being.
57:01
Whereas the young women are all still talking about their appearance at some
level, Juli goes deeper than appearance. But Olga is talking about appearance.
She's not taking a stereotypical appearance, but she's pretty much talking
about her appearance. Juli is pretty much the only woman who talks about what
she can do and what she can create and what can you know. 57:28
Q:
Of course, the girls are obsessed about their appearance, and they get this
idea from what society is telling them, right?
57:37
Groups in high school are the quintessential socializer (smiles) I mean that's
your gateway to the culture. Ahhm, many different cultures, certainly but
one of the major cultural themes seems to be for these young women is that
appearance matters.
Q: How much control do they have over who they are or what they want to be?
58:12
Ye, that's a good question. How much control do they have over what they want
to be and who they are how they look, because adolescence as an entity is
pretty Western, and it's pretty modern. We don't have that ritual that turns
you into a man overnight or turns you into a woman overnight [58:30] You have
this long drawn out thing called adolescence during which time you buy a lot
of consumer goods so that becomes your identity. And we saw that: the young
women buy a lot of make up 58:42 and clothes, ahh, and Frank evidently also
buys a lot of make up.
Q:
And the Jocks?
58:52
I don't know what they buy. They buy equipment (laughs)
Q:
If they have so little control over their culture, then it must be harder
for them to grow?
59:52
When you're talking about adolescence being a time of finding yourself, we're
talking about groups within high schools constricting what the potential identities
are or what potential selves you're gonna find when you really look at yourself
and figure out what you want, well the majority culture, whatever the majority
culture outside that school is, not even including familial cultures, ahm,
constricts just that as much if not more 01:00:16
Q:
Give me a couple of examples of that.
01:0033
Well the obvious one, just watching how the culture infiltrates the high school
culture, the majority culture infiltrates in a way the high school culture,
and really constricts identity is back to gender, in terms of young women
being completely focused on appearance, and that even Juli focuses on appearance.
Olga focuses on appearance. These women; you would never pin them, stereotype
them as similar. Yet, all really focused on their appearance. Juli breaks
out of that by talking about you know, what she can create, but for the most
part they're really stuck on, and how people perceive them.
01:01:15
And while the men do too, there's more a sense of activity. I mean the Jocks
are really doing something. They play sports, and they are very stereotyped
in a way, ahm, and even Frank has lot of depth to what kinds of things he
does, and the kinds of things likes, and who he is, and you know, he's allowed
to be fairly rich and layered. Ahm, the same with Geoffrey and the same with
Danny. 01:02:41 David seems more constricted by the
culture. I mean the other thing that's in this video is you know, it's primarily
white, so we're talking about, so gender sticks out because that's what sticks
out. 01:01:54 All these students seem to be around the same socio-economic
class, I could be wrong, but it seems to be of the similar socio-economic
status and they're primarily white, which really makes gender stick out more.
01:02:07 Whereas if there was more diversity, you might see the cultural roles coming in differently, like I'm not sure how they play into Danny and David, who seem to identify with a Latino culture, on some level, and I'm not certain how that would affect them other than they say they have a fluidity in identity. They talk about being able to dress like preppies one day, hip-hoppers the other day, and they get to listen to all this variety of music, and they get to dress however they want so there's something about them that really feels fluid, they get to choose 01:02:44 which is a privilege to choose how you're identified. 01:02:50
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