BILL MOYERS:
I'm back now with Michael Pollan, author IN DEFENSE OF FOOD, and THE OMNIVORE'S DILEMMA. We're talking about what President-elect Obama, and we, can do to improve the nation's food system. Let me ask you, you said in your letter to the president-elect, that the first family should eat locally.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Yeah.
BILL MOYERS:
What do you mean?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Well, look, the president's bully pulpit is a very important thing. And, you know, I think the first family could set an example with who they appoint White House chef. Is it someone who's really associated with this, you know, local food movement? Who would not only cook wonderful, healthy food for them, but who, at state dinners, would kind of shine a light some of the best farmers in this country and elevate the prestige of farming. I also think that we need, in addition to a White House Chef; we need a White House Farmer.
BILL MOYERS:
Are you suggesting that the president should rip up the South Lawn?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Not all of it. Not all of it.
BILL MOYERS:
All right, say five acres.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Five acres. They've got 17 acres to play with. I don't know exactly how much. But I'm saying five acres. Put in a garden, organic garden. Hire a good farmer to grow food there. I think that that would send a powerful message. You know, this has happened before. Eleanor Roosevelt put a victory garden in, in the White House in 1942.
BILL MOYERS:
...during second world war
MICHAEL POLLAN:
It was over the objections of the Department of Agriculture, who thought it was going to hurt the food industry if people started growing food at home. You know, God forbid.
BILL MOYERS:
Some things never change
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Yeah, I know. So they were on the wrong side of that issue, too. But she persisted. And she said, "This is really important for the war effort. I want to encourage people to grow food." And she put in this garden. And by the end of the war, there were 20 million victory gardens in America.
People were ripping up their lawns, planting vegetables, raising chickens, and by the end of the war, they were producing 40 percent of the fresh produce in America was being produced in home gardens. So it's not trivial, it could make a tremendous contribution, especially in hard times.
BILL MOYERS:
We have some people right here in urban New York who, themselves, are growing gardens. And I want to show you a short film we produced in honor of your presence here today.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Excellent.
BILL MOYERS:
The East New York section of Brooklyn is a cornucopia of fast and cheap food - healthy options are hard to find. There are restaurants, easy on the palate but hard on the arteries. There are corner delis, they offer some basics, but it's processed food that fills the shelves. And the grocery stores here come and go, taking their produce with them. Residents must travel miles to reach the nearest supermarket.
WOMAN:
The market is open!
BILL MOYERS:
But each Saturday, the East New York farmers market offers some much needed relief.
VENDOR:
That's very good. Right?
BILL MOYERS:
The market's appetizing array of food comes from just outside the city and just around corner. From sweet to savory, land to sea.
DENNIS DAVE CARGILL:
This is a baby blue fish. This tastes excellent.
BILL MOYERS:
People say it's worth the wait.
CLAUDINA WILLIAMS:
It's a different taste. When it's fresh from the tree on the table, it's delicious!
SARITA DAFTARY:
We have a great market, and you know, I think when people come and visit us, they're surprised that it's here. They're surprised that it's in East New York.
BILL MOYERS:
Sarita Daftary heads up the market, started ten years ago by the non-profit United Community Centers. It's been a welcome source of pride - and nutrients - in a tough neighborhood better known for its crime stats than its crop yields.
SARITA DAFTARY:
Food that comes from the ground that is in its most whole form is much better for you than food that's processed, or packaged. And food that's grown by small scale farmers, and especially organic farmers, tends to be more nutritious.
BILL MOYERS:
Some of the freshest vegetables here were picked just hours ago from land a few short blocks away. Jeanette Ware has been gardening here for the past two years.
JEANETTE WARE:
We're going to be harvesting some herbs, some oregano, some collard greens. Some string beans and some beets.
BILL MOYERS:
Jeanette and her husband James start each day in the dirt.
JEANETTE WARE:
It's fun. It's hard, but it's fun. It gets your back hurting, but it's good for your heart and it's a good feeling. You are digging in the natural earth and you are producing something for everybody to enjoy and be healthy.
BILL MOYERS:
Gardening satisfies James' itch to return to his South Carolina roots.
JAMES WARE:
I was sitting up there listening to the birds one morning, and then it just got back in my blood, farming, from when I was a kid.
BILL MOYERS:
Before this land was an urban oasis it was an urban dump. Farmers market organizers reclaimed the space and cleaned it up. It's now known as the Hands and Heart community garden. Anyone can rent plots here for a small fee.
JEANETTE WARE:
These are hot, you want some? These are twelve for a dollar.
BILL MOYERS:
For the Wares, what started as hobby has quickly turned into a small business. From their stand, they help fuel their community with home-grown vitamins, minerals and good cheer.
JEANETTE WARE:
Hello, I like that hat.
BILL MOYERS:
Hazel Smalls is on the hunt for organic produce.
HAZEL SMALLS:
We are pretty healthy eaters, so we are into a lot of fruits and vegetables. I usually get the frozen because they last longer, but once I found out about the market here I said, let me check it out. I can always take the collared greens, clean them, cut them up and freeze them.
BILL MOYERS:
Hazel keeps an eye on what her daughter eats. Fortunately, Cheyenne prefers pears to junk food.
CHEYENNE SMALLS:
My mother lets me eat candy only like Saturday, or just Saturday, because she doesn't want me to get diabetes, because it's very painful so I know that I don't want to eat too much candy.
BILL MOYERS:
Many of the chronic diseases that plague the country today - like diabetes - are linked to diet. Unfortunately, East New Yorkers know this all too well. Starting with the Wares themselves - both Jeanette and James are diabetic, and so are many of their customers.
WOMAN 1:
I'm anemic, diabetic, my cholesterol is high.
WOMAN 2:
I watch sugar and salt and fat. That's the three main things because of cholesterol. I'm diabetic.
BILL MOYERS:
There's a health crisis in East New York. One in six adults here suffers from diabetes - that's nearly twice the New York City average. Nearly one out of three is obese. The primary cause of premature death here is heart disease. Over the past ten years, hospitalization for the condition has increased by 35 percent. So food here can be a simple matter of life and death, and people like Claudina Williams need the market for food that won't make them sick.
CLAUDINA WILLIAMS:
You have to find it, it doesn't matter how much it costs because that's your health.
BILL MOYERS:
Claudina uses coupons to help ease the expense of eating right. A number of states, including New York, encourage low-income people to shop at farmers markets by accepting food stamps and distributing free food vouchers to senior citizens and moms.
SARITA DAFTARY:
People in low-income communities, people everywhere deserve the same quality of life, a great quality of life
BILL MOYERS:
Back at the Hands and Heart community garden, James and Jeanette Ware bring this year's growing season to a close.
JEANETTE WARE:
I have customers that come every week without fail to get fresh food, so I'm going to really, really miss them. And they ask me, "You're not going to keep growing stuff in the hot house or something for the winter we can come to the garden and buy?" They're going to really miss them, and I'm going to miss them too.
BILL MOYERS:
Next year, the Wares hope to build a children's garden and they'll grow even more of the produce their customers crave in a new hot house. It's all part of their master plan.
JAMES WARE:
My dream is to sell to stores, delis, that will in turn feed the community. And many, multiplied by others that are doing the same thing, we can eventually feed the community fresh grown produce.
BILL MOYERS:
What do you think?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
It's a kind of thrilling program. You know, a lot of people talk about the elitism of the food movement. And they think about Whole Foods and people shopping at, you know, upscale farmers markets. But there is another face to this food movement. And that's what you see in that film. And that, there is a real crisis in the inner city with access to fresh produce. And we know, distance from a source of fresh produce is a predictor of health.
BILL MOYERS:
What do you mean, crisis?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Crisis because, in West Oakland, a neighborhood sort of like this, or where I live. I live in Berkeley. West Oakland is an area that has about 26 convenience stores, liquor stores, that sell processed food, and not a single supermarket. No source of fresh produce. You might get some onions and potatoes in that convenience store, but that it is. Yet, it's full of fast food outlets. So you have, a fresh food desert, in effect. And that is one of the reasons that people in the inner city have such higher rates of diabetes. There is a demand for fresh and healthier food that's not being served.
BILL MOYERS:
Well, you heard just how serious a problem diabetes is out in East New York.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Yeah, one in six. One in six, type 2 diabetes.
BILL MOYERS:
And traces to the food?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Right. Largely exercise and food. But in that case you know, food is really what you've got to look at, and what you can fix. And we have to understand that that's not the free market at work. The fact that you see all that fast food and you don't see any supermarkets. You know, oddly enough, government policy helped get the fast food outlets into the city. Very well-intentioned small business administration loans to encourage minority business ownership. The easiest business to get into is opening a fast-food franchise in the inner city.
So, our government helped that happen. Again, for good reasons. We need similar programs to encourage the supermarkets to come in, so there is a source of fresh produce. Or, draw in the farmers markets. And that's why those vouchers. I mean, we're going to need to supplement food stamps, I'm sure, in the next few months. Why not offer every food stamps recipient, a voucher redeemable at a farmers market for fresh, wholesome food? That would, at a stroke, draw farmers markets, farmers into the inner city, and improve the diet. Not just the number of calories people are getting, but the quality of those calories.
BILL MOYERS:
But with urban sprawl, and with so many acres of farmland being turned over to development. Most of us live a long way from a farmers market.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Yeah. I agree. I think one of the problems, since the 50s has been, a lot of the local farms have been paved over with houses. And we need, but not all of them. And we need to protect that land. Because we're going to need it. When the oil runs out, we're going to need to be able to feed ourselves from within 100, 200, 300 miles. I mean, look. We're shipping - one of the more significant things that happened when we had this oil price spike last summer, is the price of moving a box of broccoli from the Salinas Valley in California, where most of it is grown, to the Hunts Point Market here in New York, went from $3 to $10.
BILL MOYERS:
Whoa.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
When that happened, two or three of the big growers in California started buying farmland in New England. See, they get it. They get that in the future, we're going to need to grow food closer to where people live. And broccoli goes really well any where in this country. So we need to look at high-quality farmland, close to cities like New York and realize, that it as precious as, say, a wetland, which we wouldn't let you develop unless you could really prove the need to develop a wetland. We need to protect farmland.
BILL MOYERS:
Here in New York, vacant lots, such as the old dump that became that garden are being taken over for high-rise development. I mean, that's, a long-range.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
That's going to slow down, there will be less of that. There'll be more vacant lots.
BILL MOYERS:
But how practical, truly practical, is it to think that what we just saw, a garden in East New York could be replicated across the country in urban areas?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Well, it is being replicated. There is a community food security movement in cities all across the country that are bringing, you know, starting the farm on vacant lots. Building farmers markets. Bringing farmers in. It's happening, with very little support. Imagine if it got some support. Imagine if the farm bill were really encouraging this movement.
Building four season farmers markets, so it's not just in the good weather. I think it's very realistic. It's not an all or nothing proposition. It's not like we're going to flip the switch, and we're going to have this localized agriculture, you know, overnight. We're going to need different solutions in different parts of the country.
What the people in Iowa, I think, need to be doing, we need to recognize what they're really growing there is cattle feed. I mean, it looks like corn and beans, but 40 to 50 percent of that grain is going to feed cattle and hogs. So what if we cut out all the transportation, the middle man, and actually put animals back on those farms? Let them grow really high quality grass-fed beef. You know, that is some of the best agricultural land in the world. And so we grow meat, back on the land, sustainably. And meat, you can move some distance to a market. So I think we have to figure out different solutions in different places, and it's not all or nothing. We need to let a thousand flowers bloom. We need to try many things in many places, and figure out what works
BILL MOYERS:
Other than write President-elect Obama and support your nomination for Secretary of the Agriculture, what can people do, ordinary people, who are not farmers. You've described a very stubborn political process. You've described a Washington controlled and dominated by the big industrial farms. There is a sense that people could be demoralized by listening to you.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Actually, not at all. I mean, the great thing about this issue, and it's very different than a lot of other issues. It's very different than climate change, energy and so many different issues we're grappling with is you don't have to wait for Nancy Pelosi or Barack Obama or Collin Peterson to get their act together on this issue. You can act now. There are alternatives. You can vote with your fork.
You don't, you know, it's important to vote with your vote as well, for better agricultural policies. But what's happening around this country is we're building an alternative food economy. It's being done without virtually any support from the government. And it's burgeoning. Now, yeah, sometimes it costs more. Not always. There is a moment in the farmers market where the tomatoes are really cheap. The potatoes, the apples are really cheap, and you buy them then, and you know, it's a really good deal. So I dispute that it's always more expensive. I think that you have to shop strategically and be prepared to cook. And then you can eat in a budget-conscious way.
So that's one thing. Think of the dollars you spend on food in a different way. You're not just a consumer. You're a producer too. And you can produce another kind of agriculture depending on where you choose to spend your money. So that's point one.
BILL MOYERS:
What do you mean?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Look at the rise of organic agriculture in this country. It's now, what, $20 billion business, okay? It grew without any help from the government until very recently. It grew essentially, consumers talking to farmers, farmers talking to consumers. They developed this market. Everyone who is willing to spend that extra money on organic was helping to create a new kind of farm, a new kind of agriculture.
BILL MOYERS:
What else? Give me a list, quickly, of what we can do to make a difference in this reforming the food system.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Well, plant a garden. If you've got space, and if you don't, look into a community garden where you might rent a little bit of space, like we saw in East New York.
Cook. Simply by starting to cook again, you declare your independence from the culture of fast food. As soon as you cook, you start thinking about ingredients. You start thinking about plants and animals, and not the microwave. And you will find that your diet, just by that one simple act, that is greatly improved. You will find that you are supporting local agriculture, because you'll care about the quality of ingredients. And you know, whether you're cooking or not is one of the best predictors for a healthy diet. It's more important than the class predictor. People with more money generally have healthier diets, but affluent people who don't cook are not as healthy in their eating as poor people who still cook. So, very, very important. If you don't have pots and pans, get them.
Now people say they don't have time, and that's an issue. And I am saying that we do need to invest more time in food. Food is just too important to relegate to these 10-minute corners of our lives. And you know, even if you would just take, you know, we watch cooking shows like crazy on television. We've turned cooking into a spectator sport. If you would merely invest the time you spend watching cooking shows in actually cooking, you would find you've got plenty of time to put a meal on the table.
BILL MOYERS:
Are you suggesting that we're going to have to learn to shoot our own pigs because if we do, I don't have a fridge large enough for a whole hog.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Well, I actually think buying a freezer, Bill, is a really good investment. Because that's how you can take advantage of the deals, when there are deals at the farmer's market. I did - I learned how to hunt, when I was writing "The Omnivore's Dilemma". I haven't hunted since. I actually think hunting is a very sustainable form of meat production in a lot of places, where we have way too many whitetail deer. I know that this will offend some people. So, you know, but producing some of your own food too. Make yourself a real producer. Put in a garden. I mean, that is not a trivial thing. You know, it sounds kind of sweet and old lady-like. But gardens are very powerful things.
BILL MOYERS:
How so? What do you mean? Powerful things.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Not only will you discover that a very small plot of land, my garden now is only 10 foot by 20 foot, produces so much produce, I need to give it away. I have to spend time figuring out how to get rid of it. So you will actually get some of the healthiest, freshest food you can possibly get. It is the shortest food chain of all. But it teaches certain habits of mind that I think are really, really important. You know, Wendell Berry had a phrase. He talked about our kind of predicament with regard to energy. He said-
BILL MOYERS:
-farmer, philosopher in Kentucky, right?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Yeah. And he said, "You know, we're afflicted by this cheap energy mind," that we, because cheap energy has allowed us to outsource so much of our lives. You know, we do one thing, right? We do our job, and everything else, we have a specialist who provides. They entertain us. They feed us. They clothe us. We don't do anything for ourselves anymore. It's one of the reasons that when we look at climate change, we feel so helpless, because we can't imagine doing any more for ourselves.
Well, as soon as you start gardening, it is a cure for the cheap energy mind. You're suddenly realizing that hey, I can use my body in support of my body. I have other skills. I can, you know, I can feed myself, if I needed to. And that is kind of a preparation, I think, for the world we may find ourselves in. But it's very empowering to realize that you're not at the mercy of the supermarket.
BILL MOYERS:
We have 6.7 billion people on this earth, wanting to be fed. Do you think that we have a system that it will produce enough food, if we put into effect what you're talking about?
MICHAEL POLLAN:
As long as the sun still shines. There is the energy to produce the food. The thing we need to remember, when people ask, "Can we feed the world sustainably?" is that about 40 percent of all the grain we're growing in the world, which is most of what we grow, we are feeding to animals. So there's an awful lot of slack there, if we're not eating nine ounces of meat a day. We're wasting 25 percent of what we're growing. I mean, there is, you know, there is plenty of food, if we organize our agriculture in a proper way.
The 'can we feed the world' argument has been used for 50 years to drive the industrialization of agriculture. It is agri-business propaganda, people who are not interested in feeding the world. They're interesting in driving up productivity, on American farms. Yes, some want to export it. ADM and Cargill want to ship it out to other places, but basically they want their raw materials as cheap as possible. I'm talking about Coca-Cola. I'm talking about McDonald's. And the way you keep you need overproduction to do that. You want your raw materials, if you're producing that McDonald's hamburger, or Coca-Cola, you're dependent on that corn and soy, and the cheaper that is, the more profit you're going to make.
BILL MOYERS:
I'm sorry that I can't persuade you or convince you to take the job. You would be a provocative Secretary of Agriculture.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Well, that's probably a good word for it.
BILL MOYERS:
Michael Pollan, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for being on the JOURNAL.
MICHAEL POLLAN:
Thank you, Bill. Thank you very much.