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Social Programs For All?

(Photos by Robin Holland)

In their conversation with Bill Moyers on the JOURNAL this week, sociologist Orlando Patterson and economist Glenn C. Loury discussed the possibility of redefining the target populations of social programs. Patterson remarked on one approach:

“There’s always a huge problem in policies with respect to black Americans, and that is whether they’re going to be targeted towards blacks... or whether it’s gonna be universal. That is, you take the view that it is not a black problem... a shift from the targeted approach to a universal approach, in which affirmative action will be for the white poor as well as the black poor.”

Loury noted that such a policy would not necessarily produce the same results as the race-based system currently in effect.

“If we say affirmative action at leading American universities is now open to poor people, regardless of their race, no more of these middle class blacks who have lower test scores getting into places like Princeton or Harvard or any place like that. The result of that, the actual result of doing it, just like that and nothing else, will be for every black that might have benefited, there are going to be ten poor whites who could potentially benefit. It will be a significant reduction of the number of blacks at these institutions. Now, maybe that’s okay. Maybe that’s not okay.”

What do you think?

  • Do you think today’s social programs like affirmative action and desegregation are succeeding?

  • Does class weigh as much race in our nation's divide? Should it weigh as much in social programs aimed at easing racial divisions?

  • How are these programs affected by the growing multiculturalism in the US, when divisions are less black and white?


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    Comments

    Steve: Libraries can be really cool places with a plethora of media if affluent suburbanites will only pay their fair share of taxes. The "gangbangers" you describe are under no delusions about their destiny. Already out of the socioeconomic frying pan and into the fire of rigged capitalist competition they are preparing for the inevitably cruel future. Reading all the books in the library won't help you pirate, pimp, snuff, beat and deal with the pros.
    Who are the pros? Dick Cheney would be a good thug example, "So what (bitch)" when it comes to public opinion. When it comes to education, I'm sure Phil Gramm would label you a whiner, who should take his licks with the other weak losers.
    Education will never guarantee success under corrupt cronyism and collusive co-optation. Co-optation- Isn't that what we expect from Obama: Strong Banger Barry sells us out? McCain will dance at fundraisers while banks fail, just as he did during the Savings and Loan debacle. And its "off to the Eastern Front" with your poor white babies, Steve.
    It's 11:59, Steve, Do you know where your nest egg is? Wachovia and Merrill Lynch may be cracking it now. The N's ain't the problem, Steve, nor the Jews nor the Gypsies nor the cripples nor the trade unionists. The problem is critics who never look up socioeconomically (at their supposed betters) but only down at the victims of a collapsing empire. Oh, and Steve, if you're afraid to look up, "You could be a victim too"
    See you at the library. Are you ready for the Deluge?

    I wish black people would take more responsibility for their lives. They are smart kids. They can be successful in school and life if they applied themselves more. I couldn't believe what I was hearing when Glenn C. Loury referred several times to black criminal gang members as "Little knuckle-headed gang-bangers running around with pistols, robbing people and selling drugs? They're not any different from you. If you'd grown up in a public housing project, your kid might well be out there with them. They're not any different than you. They are our children. It's our problem. That's what I want people to understand." Being a criminal is a choice. It may be hard to stay out of gangs but not impossible. Public schools are free, they can be bused to all areas of my metro area free regardless of income or race or grades. Libraries are free.
    I go to a particular Minneapolis public library often and I can't remember when I last saw a black child with a book in their hand or heaven forbid reading one or doing homework. The black children and young black adult activity that I have seen inside and outside the library in the inner city and even the suburban libraries is disappointing at best and disrespectful, inappropriate or crinal at worst. Their time spent at the library has nothing to do with learning. A person can't help but notice hip-hop ar nasty rap videos or violent video games and as you as you look for an open computer. The computers are taken mostly by kids and it is not easy for an adult to get one. the other category of course is MySpace.com. A place where boys look at girls pictures and email them and girls look at boys pictures and email them. I don't remember seeing homework being done on the computer. The libraries should be a place of learning but they are a just a nasty playground for unsupervised children and young adults. I wish I would see more parents of black children there. They are a rare sight indeed. Hispanic and Somalian parents are more prevelent and their kids read more and study at the library more. In my day a library had books and we had to keep quiet or leave. The library does have classes and music for free throughout the week, but the kids have little if any interest in these. They don't want to learn they direspect the library staff, they intimidate patron's as they hang out in front of the front door as they talk loud, yell and get in some altercations. a few months ago I walked between two gang bangers, a boy and a girl who later beat down a girl's Dad who came to pick her up (because they threatened her). The two gang-bangers held a grudge from a slight or supposed slight from a year or more before. The girl said she was from the Bloods and was gonna "beat the B**ch down." I'm tired of my tax dollars going for entertainment instead of learning. Maybe we should remove the computers from the inner city libraries. Librarians are unable to do anything about access to web content except pornography(that gets filtered) but MySpace for example has innapropriate content available to them. I suppose this is going on in many libraries in many cities. If Bill Moyer's or Glenn C. Loury or the other guest with him that night are ever in Minneapolis. Let me know. I can show you first hand what is going on in and around the urban community libraries.

    Yesterday on NPR's (WBUR-Boston) Here and Now Robin Young presented a piece blaming recipients of Section 8 vouchers for a crime wave in second tier cities. There were many inconsistencies in the report and Young seemed ill prepared and cut-off when she tried to critique the basic premise of our poorest displaced people as carrying crime around with them. Certainly they have been disproportionate victims, but this is like blaming rape on the way women dress and behave.

    As background, WBUR linked me to a current article in Atlantic magazine by Hanna Rosin titled "American Murder Mystery" which went even farther than the broadcast to depersonalize and scapegoat housing clients.

    I think this misinformation and bias building are typical of the current backlash against helping the homeless and hungry in stressful economic times. Quality of life is a reciprocal and collective matter by definition. (Take public health for instance.)

    Selective enforcement and prosecution, racism and classism, and even the way we define crime come under review in wholistic criminology. Wedge criminology is simply police occupation and an attack focus in the class warfare Warren Buffet warns us about.

    If we are not careful we will soon be blaming wheelchair users, homosexuals and gypsies for the rising price of food and fuel while forgetting the shenanigans of speculators who have undermined our entire economy.
    Will such ludicrous misconceptions pattern the self-defeating solutions implemented? Those Final Solutions?

    As journalists are laid off, publicists and lobbyists tend to write more and more of our informational news. I believe the broadcast and article mentioned above are one more nail in democracy's coffin.

    I want to especially thank James DeWolf Perry for his account of 19th century attitudes toward slavery in Rhode Island. His is a comment on "banal evil" (Hannah Ahrendt- orig. 1963-"Eichmann in Jerusalem") I (and Prof. Ward Churchill) am facinated by her concept of the evil aparachnik. "Irene", a frequent poster on Moyers, has commented that our employments in the U.S. are progressively more PREDATORY and David Eddy, an idealistic and tender hearted poster, has added that we should take pride in our employment as a service to humanity. Moyers and I both continually examine Christian morality as a potential asset. I implore you, fair readers, how can one take pride in predatory employment or delude oneself that commercial cruelty somehow serves the public? I realize that advocates of capitalist greed as a societal regulator are advocating just such a position. I myself am having trouble finding employment that is not predatory in its major aspects. (ex: Does not the chicken plant that imports undocumented workers engage in something tantamount to slavery?)
    Let me ask you James DeWolf Perry, How do you live, and how should we achieve our sustenance now? Doesn't it seem that the discipline imposed by our economy and our institutions make the harmless life impossible?

    Note: John Browne and the "Secret Six" reacted to a similar dilemma in 1858. Does one drop out like Henry D. Thoreau because the underlying fabric of our existence is contiguous (transcendental). I know of no available lakeside cabin , sufficiently inexpensive, today. The only recommended course may be homeless disobedience.

    I've begun to think of poverty as tinder. As climate change, peak oil, elite betrayal, and the resulting inflational shortfalls close in upon households the measures of poverty rise through the population. A majority of Americans are already absolutely poor. Like brush starved for water we stand helplessly as our overlords strike their matches.
    Report: Food and gas are dear and I lack any means for winter heat. Your gods Obama and McCain are stone and cannot hear our prayers. Easter Island all over again.

    To consider plans, and legislation to give blacks more opportunity is a waste of time. Coercive civil rights laws just give more people opportunity to play a role in an age-old oppressor-oppressed social system. We do not need to change the skin color of the participants. What needs to be done is change the system. Bring the 'New World' into existence. The 'world' to which our founders opened the door.
    To think we could ever establish equality through a collective leadership mentality based on a hierarchy system, with status determined by the most powerful is almost ludicrous. We perpetuate 'Old World' leadership. Fail to escape from a primitive mentality based on appearance of things. A world where individual survival depended on obedience to all powerful gods.
    Progress toward truth, comfort and common welfare happened when encouragement for individuals was to find personal identity through prayer to a God of love. Increasingly over the past forty years, encouragement is to 'believe what you are told',--obey corporate direction,--to gain social reward.
    All the problems emerging today are relative to failure of individuals, and mankind as a whole to find identity.
    Within each 'invisible person' exists another common mindset. Described in words as equality, truth, freedom, peace, love, justice. Until this mind is released,--becomes dominate,--determines social reward--there will always be injustice.
    We need to become free from oppressive mentality in its entirety. To free these inherent conscious agents we call ideals, that have thrived in the heart of humanity throughout all the eras, from 'outside' restraint,--is the only way to accelerate our move toward 'happiness', or justice.
    Our equality exists within the person---no matter what skin color, or shape the body is in. We have become so materialistic,---that personal identity seems almost lost.

    I was amazed to hear such an intelligent conversation on race and culture. I am exposed to so little direct conversation on such issues. I have to live for every friday night when I get my weekly dose of the essence of what it is to be human in this country and world today. I just wish I was having these conversations with a living breathing human being and not just passively watching on television. but I will take what I can get.

    Unless you walk in someone else's moccasins; there is no way to know their pain.
    This is not a perfect world and we are not perfect people. What ever our color or culture we are all susceptable to injustice, inhumanity and inequity. The best we can do is offer people a good education, meaningful work and equitable pay. It is necessary that the justice system provide positive justice that corrects injustice and negative justice that punishes wrong doers. The justice system must take from the rich when they ar greedy and give to the poor when they are needy to insure an equitable distribution of wealth. This is a prerequisite to an equitable social contract.
    The better qualified citizens are to support a quality society; the better is the quality of everyone in the societies lifestyle. It is necessary that society reinforce its citizens realization of the benefits of working together for the common good. It is neccessary that society Place first priority on the quality of people's lives. Without justice, liberty and equity; society deteriorates into discontent, hate and chaos.

    "Anyone who sees in his own occupation merely a means of earning money degrades it; but he that sees in it a service to mankind ennobles both his labor and himself."
    A. Lawrence Lowell

    I truly enjoyed tonight's episode. I am deeply disturbed by some of the statements our caucasion counterparts espounced on the issue of poverty in the black community todate. Poverty in itself is a man-made entity and I contend the intent is to promote a permenant underclass. The mainstream in this country is not interested in an honest dialague on race relations as it would be cause for action. The blinders must be intact and not move beyond the peripheral. The question to my black brothers/sisters is why we continue to put our trust in a culture that has consistently undermined us for hundreds of years and even with the legitmacy of the civil rights movement expect them to be equitable in their privelege. You can not legitimize hatred. Black community, its time to wake up and prepare our progeny for the future.

    I viewed the POV program, "Traces of the Trade" last night. It was a huge letdown. The descendants of the DeWolf family who participated in the journey to trace and uncover information about their ancestors' complicity in the slave trade showed themselves to be remarkably weak-kneed and lacking in self-respect. Almost all are products of Ivy League universities, yet they professed startling naievete in expressing how they feel about the past and present vis-a-vis race in this society.

    If the present-day generation of the DeWolf family wishes to engage in self-flagellation and wallow in despair about something they had absolutely nothing to do with, let them. I found some of their professions of "shame" to be laying it on a bit thick.

    What courses of study were these Ivy League educated people engaged in, not to know that whips and manacles were used on board slave ships or that no one section of the U.S. ever has been "better" than any other section when it comes to race, or that we in the U.S. don't discuss race intelligently and with civility as much as we should?

    These are some weak-kneed people who should seek therapy for their self-esteem and self-respect deficiencies. There are more constructive ways to confront racism in this society than to engage in self-flagellation and subscribe to the absurd doctrine of original sin.

    Badly done program.

    As I've stated here and there many times before, fixation on the nuclear family constellation does the victims of racial and class warfare no good. Only the Freudian and authoritarian "strong father" models of family benefit from such discussion. In a time of economic turmoil and the awakening of marital freedom (under California court decision) this is backward reactionary wealth worshiping talk no matter what your age or skin complexion.
    One doesn't have to be an effete materialist analyst to recognize that the nuclear family unit is a unit of consumption and social control, non-viable under depressed wages and rising unemployment. What a child needs is caring love and material support, and it can come from extended family, voluntary associations, community, religious membership, and even unions and activist groups. When wrongheaded talking heads (like Billy an' the Perfessers) insist on intact marital units as the predominate model they ignore cultural and material reality, mouth-off to please their funders, and condemn any child without mommy and daddy in the same happy credit-debt hutch to discrimination and a diminished potential. I thought victim blaming Oscar Lewis and Patrick Moynihan had been vanquished long ago by Charles Valentine, but apparently not on the Journal. Even greedy (I want my 20 million!)bonehead Hillary Clinton wrote "It Takes a Village." Fred Engels was writing about this same obstinancy in 1872 when Victoria Woodhull/Frederick Douglass were the Human Equality Party nominees for President and Vice President. But the elite wealthy interests are able to backslide us with racism and superstition again and again. (You've done wrong, Bill. I swat your nose with a rolled-up newspaper.)
    The nuclear family mainly provides a helpless exploitive unit if not combined with a wider solidarity. It provides convenient byte-sized morsels for the modern corporate predators with their mainframe brains. (Tell RicK Karr there has been no privacy, no place to hide, under ubiquitous commercialization for some time now.) Human cohesion is being fried in the pan of speculative profit, and poor Bill can't remember if he cut off the kitchen range. ("I detect an alarm down here at the monitoring station, Mr. Moyers. May I call 911 for ya ?")

    Note: Doug Blackmon depended not only upon government records to write "Slavery By Another Name" but also the scholarship and research of many authors and scholars cited and acknowledged within his popular text. A more probing interview would have emphasized this work as the culmination of much probing and unjust suffering, not just meat for sadistic curiosity and eroticism, not just another advertisement.

    Mr. Moyers, thank you for an outstanding program. I was especially pleased that you had Mr. Douglas Blackmon on the program to talk about his new book, Slavery by Another Name.

    In what may well be one of the most important works in non-fiction to emerge in the 21st Century, investigative journalist, Douglas Blackmon, has authored a compelling and compassionate examination of slavery's evolution, practice and influence reaching far into the 20th Century. Blackmon's, Slavery by Another Name, is certainly a prizeworthy study by a writer whose acumen for the highest in journalistic standards combined with an unusual gift for storytelling makes this historic work both enlightening and inspiring.

    As an African American (bi-racial Black/White) I can attest to the facts and stories Mr. Blackmon presents, as told to me by my father who only upon his deathbed, felt safe enough to reveal. Growing up in Jasper Texas in the 1920's, he was picking cotton at age 7 and driving tractors at age 9. The atmosphere for Blacks was a living holocaust, where my father witnessed the lynching of his boyhood friend at age 13, where oppression was a daily experience for Blacks; even in the most simple terms of human interaction, where making eye-contact when addressing Whites was considered untenable and subject to harsh retribution.

    Indeed, Mr. Blackmon goes far beyond these traditional understandings of racial practices, and brings new, deeper knowledge of how slavery had merely been retooled to accommodate the unforeseen realities of emancipation, allowing it to flourish for many more decades in"what Blackmon calls the "Age of Neoslavery".

    Resulting from the recent history-making speech on race by Presidential hopeful, Illinois Senator Barack Obama, there is huge public interest in reaching a more comprehensive understanding of race relations in our nation. The fact is, public response to Sen. Obama's speech has uncapped an overwhelming outpouring of public interest, writings, and dialogue.

    Mr. Blackmon had a similar experience back in 2001, when his article appeared in the Wall Street Journal on how U.S. Steel Corp. relied on the forced labor of Blacks. This too received massive public response expressing appreciation and sincere interest to learn more. Hence, after 7 years of exhaustive research and interviews, Slavery by Another Name arrives at a time our nation, facing a historic general election, is contemplating race as never before. And Mr. Blackmon's pioneering work is helping us to break new ground toward a path of greater insight and reconciliation.

    Again, my thanks Mr. Moyers, for your tremendous program and its significant contribution to the national conversation.

    I can't help thinking how this conversation between Drs. Patterson and Loury was in itself a potential August Wilson play (see Moyer's Archive). Why not interview people in a pancake house, Bill, where they can tease one another and steal strawberries and cream from one another's plates? But then I'm mayhaps mistaken because of their gray, for the anger songs are not their own but from the annals of white approved economics and sociology, more that smoother Cosby jazz. (Pleases the guiltless ears of greedy refinement)
    George Carlin died Sunday: He'd barely scratched the paint on politically relevant observational humor, compared with Wilson, and I don't mean to say Carlin wasn't a wizard of human free expression, just that he matured slower than Wilson (a little older, with a few more years). "Humourist" Barbara Ehrenreich has a new book out "This Land is Their Land." I wish she'd comment on Charles Beard's "The Economic Origins of the Constitution" and the role of "founding speculators" at our nation's illegitimate beginning (not democratic, not glasnostic, unfair to the populace). August Wilson could tell you, Bill, how the current foreclosures and concentrations of power-wealth were always in the blues lyrics... When your old lady steps out the back door she may be meeting Donald Trump or Mitt Romney's wallet, and for her (a statute of liberty) it will be quite a bucking locomotive ride, from Rocky Mount to Pennsylvania Station.
    It would be a divine miracle if class based affirmative action could arrive on the back of alternative energy and sustainable lifeways, but I don't see it happening until some affluent rooster heads are severed on the stump. Take it from me: Take it from France (as Sarcozy's seconds tick away). We Jacobins are grinding our axes. (I wish August were around to notate the lyrics.)
    You know, you don't have to remain a hostage, Bill. They say an ivory tower can't prevail in a Chinese earthquake....

    I have to say that taking one view of any subject,and to base ones opinion solely with that view is to live with blinders on. The burden of slavery and the atrocity of Civil War, is not just black and white it includes many social, economic and political facets, these changes followed with reconstruction to suit one political movement over another created the social problems with blacks and whites. The south always gets the dirty boot though and the Confederacy is dealt a quick hand of prejudice in modern America though few even know the truths with the lies that spin in the media forum. Why doesnt someone try to understand the suffering of Confederate Americans and their descendants?

    Very well said Ruth!!!!

    Douglas Blackman argues that the judicial system became a mechanism for the re-enslavement of African-Americans from shortly after the Civil War through the 1940s. Can we be so sure it is not on-going? Angela Davis has argued for years that the prison system is the new face of slavery. Not only are African-Americans over-represented still today in American prisons, but the increasing privatization of the prison industry leads to the same constellation of business interests that provided the incentive for the re-enslavement of black Americans following the Civil War. Should we be so confident that the process of re-enslavement is behind us? Especially today, when the United States of America imprisons more people - both numerically and as a percentage of its population - than any other country in the world?

    Bill, why not continue this discussion with Angela Davis?

    Each of us individually have to take responsibly for our actions. We have choices to make. I'm caucasion. I suppose I could blame someone or something for my life not going as I had hoped at times. A lot of people I know, black and white and rich and poor have not had all their dreams come true also. Let's see, is that because I'm not rich enough or white enough or by some freak circumstance I'm just not supposed to be happy? Maybe I should blame the government? I couldn't believe what your guests were saying. No, more government handouts or affirmative action programs are not going to fix a person's character or anyone's lack of morality or accountability. I am only prejudiced against stupid. I love your program.

    I loved this week's Journal! Why isn't anyone brave enough to ask why it had to take a multi-cultural man of African and American descent to lift and give hope to African-Americans? Where are the true brave children of born of slavery? Is Obama like a Moses?

    TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS

    How can these two gentlemen blame the eroding of the black american family unit on slavery? As Thomas Sowell discovers through research and displays in his new book "Economic Facts & Fallacies", even under slavery conditions and for generations afterwards, black children were raised in two-parent homes. After slavery, the freed blacks married, and the marriage rates among blacks were even higher than those among whites in the early twentieth century. 31% of black kids were born to unwed mom's in the 1930's, but 77% of black children were born to unmarried women by the early 1990's. If slavery is the culprit, why was "UNWED CHILDBIRTH" SO MUCH LESS COMMON AMONG BLACKS WHO WERE TWO GENERATIONS CLOSER TO THE SLAVERY ERA than in the 1990's. This unwed childbirth problem obviously is not slavery related like was so stated in the Journal's televised segment. The true wrongdoers are the parents, black, white, red, or brown, that choose not to hold themselves accountable and properly raise their kids. The only victims here are the children and the degradation of our society due to the higher crime rate as a result of improper/nonexistent rearing.

    Thank you, for reaching out to the untold story of African Americans in the U.S.A. My parents migrated from Germany before the Second World War. I grew up in Jim Crow’s Florida. For a kid like me, St. Petersburg was magical. The water and air were clean and the skies were filled with birds. I fished and explored to my hearts content. The world I grew up in was nearly perfect. But a grim shroud cloaked the horizon.

    Children only know what they are taught. I was taught to look the other way. In those days, the slums were terrible. I was taught that African American people were just like that. In my Sunday School class, I was taught that the mark of Cain was upon them. They were just naturally bad.

    When I began to question these ideas, I was not popular. We treated other people as though only the white race was superior. My interest in things naturally led me to the conclusion that humans are human. Although I was never able to afford a higher education, I loved history. For me history is the study of cause and effect, not an opportunity for propaganda.

    About five years ago I created an exhibit which I called “A Treasured Legacy.” It targeted certain periods of African American history in Florida. I didn’t want to just focus on the victimization of Africans, I wanted to demonstrate that their nature made them survivors, real heroes within the struggle of humanity. They wrestled with these horrible conditions, always working toward a future which was a little better. What I discovered was that many African Americans have been taught not to analyze, understand, or honor their history, that their cultural story is a only source of shame. It acts like a cultural neurosis keeping them from truly recognizing inner quality. It helps keep them in the role of victim in certain white arrogance. I discovered that many people of color would rather identify with the dominant white culture.

    Unlike England, it took America a terrible war in order to stop apparent slavery. But wars leave deep scars which do not go away. Many tens of thousands died leaving families exhausted, and in the south, often bitter. It seems to me that the target of that wrath fell on the shoulders of those least able to defend themselves, African Americans. The forces which freed them walked away, leaving them in the wilderness of grief, reprisals, and financial abuse. Slavery had been about financial abuse, to begin with.

    Our great media has never served us well. Grudgingly it offers crumbs of understanding and almost no healing which comes with truthful recognition and forgiveness. It loves a victim to pick on, a good witch burning. So much for “the truth shall set you free.”

    Yes, we must seek political and economic hope in the present. But, history is another essential key to real democracy. I don’t believe that we have ever had a genuine democracy in the United States. It seems to me, that we are on the road to democracy, and it’s a rough road, full of pot holes, like our present president with his Patriot Act. We have to understand the environment which shaped us before we can make the changes which can build a healthy society. African American children must experience a personal history that allows them to really be proud of who they are and their role in this great goal toward democracy.

    Prison Industry is a growing business in the U.S. Most Americans believe that it’s a form of rehabilitation and a way that prisoners can make a little money while on the inside. It’s the same old story with new spin. America can not seem to get over its love affair with slavery. I’m am so sorry to have watched Fundamental Christianity step so hard on freedom of choice and human rights. It’s one of the great tragedies of our time. Jim Crow still whispers from behind the curtain of reform.

    Love your program,

    Hermann Trappman

    Do you think today’s social programs like affirmative action and desegregation are succeeding?

    Yes, I think that they help. I doubt that we would have as much progress as we have had (and we have enjoyed progress) without them.

    Does class weigh as much race in our nation's divide? Should it weigh as much in social programs aimed at easing racial divisions?

    Yes, certainly. It is hard to know exactly how to overcome class divisions. I have no creative notions about how to do it.

    How are these programs affected by the growing multiculturalism in the US, when divisions are less black and white?

    The politics of identity has complicated matters, but we have always worked within cultural differences.

    Anarlya Sen’s warnings about the illusion of destiny applies here. Societies such as that of India floundered within cultural differences. We have discriminated against each other. Some people have suffered more that others. For example, laws concerning interstate trade did discriminate against all Southerners for many years before and even after the Second World War. I think we have to be creative in overcoming such discrimination. It has been fun watching Native Americans thrive with their resorts in Oregon or here in Louisiana with casinos.

    To: Mr Bill Moyers,

    • Do you think today’s social programs like affirmative action and desegregation are succeeding?

    -- Yes affirmative action is working for a segment of Black Americans. Unfortunately many are not taking advantage of the opportunity. Those not moving up must be made to understand that they can no longer be who they once were if they wish to move into main stream America. Responsibility for ones actions must be accepted, along with a work ethic and study habit to acquire the skills and education that will improve their status. If Community Gate Keepers don’t encourage a move from the Ghetto mentality nothing will change. Those stuck in such an environment must reject it and move on acquiring education and good work habits.

    • Does class weigh as much race in our nation's divide? Should it weigh as much in social programs aimed at easing racial divisions?

    -- Class is a factor. Poor Whites can no longer remain in the same mode anymore than Black Americans stuck in bad environments can.

    • How are these programs affected by the growing multiculturalism in the US, when divisions are less black and white?

    -- Black Americans have real issues caused by slavery and harsh segregation abusing them by denying access to education, housing, social opportunities and employment. Many other minorities want to tag-on with Black Americans and be treated as if they have faced the same obstacles. This is entirely false, especially for many Hispanics who are no more disadvantaged than anyone in main stream America. Some Hispanics face economic and social barriers that are no different than any immigrating class that has become part of the American fabric.

    -- It was interesting when the Head Coach of Texas A & M Dennis Franchonie got into a pinch over an unauthorized website that cost him his job. One minority observer called him just another greedy white man. This is very interesting because there was a time when Americans of Italian decent were heavily discriminated against and were not accepted as part of the mainstream. How far they have come to be called “Just Another Greedy White Man", when in years past they weren’t considered White. Our whole social system has been turned on its head.

    -- Black Americans have legitimate complaints, others are successfully riding on their coat tails, and I might say at the expense of our African American citizens

    IT IS CRITICAL THAT WE DO NOT CREAT A MULTILEVEL SYSTEM THAT IS SEPARATE WITH GATE KEEPERS MAKING THE RULES. FOR WE KNNOW FROM EXPERIENCE THAT SEPARATE IS NEVER EQUAL.

    I appreciated the Blackmon information. It's critical stuff. What we need is serious New Deal type programs for all poor communities (many of them run by black and brown people with local ties), vast improvement in urban public school buildings, job training at the high school level, free colleges for those who qualify, and trade agreements which include strong worker rights and U.S. wage scales for all. It would have been easy pre-Iraq spending. Now it will be harder -- but it's even more crucial for the survival of our culture and democracy.

    Kristol: Bush/McCain = Dr. Strangelove

    Kristol, Bush and McCain. Such a cluster of virtuousness. Now Kristol says Bush will pull the trigger on Iran if he thinks Obama may win. Even after 7 years of hardening to Republican lunacy, I still can't believe this one.

    http://rawstory.com/news08/2008/06/22/kristol-bush-might-attack-iran-if-he-thinks-obama-will-win/

    R E Mant writes:

    "the most pious ppl in RI during the slave trade era were opposed to slavery and piety then was not hypocritical."

    Actually, the research we did for "Traces of the Trade" showed that virtually everyone in Rhode Island, and the North, including the most pious, supported the slave trade in that era.

    Good Christian people were just as susceptible as anyone else to engaging in the slave trade, to investing in slave voyages, to doing business with slave traders, and to treating slave traders as upstanding citizens and fellow members of their congregations.

    In fact, the historical record shows one prominent Rhode Island clergyman who opposed Senator James D'Wolf and his slave trading. This man of the cloth nevertheless socialized with D'Wolf and seems to have considered their difference of opinion over slavery to be merely a gentleman's disagreement.

    It is a myth that many in the North were opposed to slavery, until quite close to the Civil War. The more important lesson that I draw from this history is that we are all capable of accepting social institutions of astonishing evil, when it is in our economic interest and when society encourages us to believe that evil to be normal.

    Your blog is well-written and supports the theory of Constructive Sovereignty. The government is nothing more than an instrument of the people. But this only works if the people make their preferences known. Constructive Sovereignty is an emerging theory pioneered by John Maszka intended to address globalization's increasing onslaught against state sovereignty. The theory maintains that states are not the primary actors, their constituents are. Therefore, their preferences are not fixed. Since states merely represent the preferences of their constituents, they will only adhere to and ultimately embed those international norms their constituency will accept. Rather than push for larger and more powerful international organizations that will impose global norms from the outside in, the theory of Constructive Sovereignty posits that ultimately change must come from the inside out. That is to say, from each state's own constituency. As each state's constituents become more and more international, they will become more receptive to international norms. In this way, international norms are embedded and viewed with legitimacy while each state's sovereignty is maintained and respected.

    Equality of all things not just black and white, is the solution our planet is searching for. Inequity is the problem and equality the cure. A healthy universe is truly and equally One.

    =
    MJA

    The dirty secret of affirmative action, especially when it comes to higher education is that the statistics only represent admissions. They never discuss the fact that a small fraction of those minorities admitted under affirmative action acutally graduate and the rates at graduate school are typically single digit. They are passed thru in an attempt to provide diversity and/or right wrongs from decades of oppression but in reality, they are just taking seats away from actually qualified students who would have graduated. Equality means the same by definition. In what way could you possibly view affirmative action as anything but a black/hispanic specific entitlement program? Bravo California, shame on you Michigan Law.

    I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. I would like to add that Affirmative Action didn't begin as a public policy aimed at leveling the playing field nor has it done so. If the discussion is to include a focus on how public policy can render generations of policies moot and mitigate the current plights of millions of African Americans, some of who contribute mightily to their poor circumstances (speaking moreso of moral dilemmas that in turn create negative financial outcomes), then surely someone has devised some sort of public policy plan that if enacted would work to turn around the problems discussed today.

    I believe no such plan exists. No group, organization or individual has such a plan to implement in public policy. If such a plan existed, the numbers would have been floated by now instead of implying that MUCH more needs to be done. Well, how much more? What is that number? Where is the research, the data that supports any plan to extract black America from its degenerating place in society?

    The point I make is simply that government not only has no desire to resolve this issue, it has no power to do so and therefore makes little effort past the threshold necessary to garner political support for one party or the other.
    Scott McClellan's revelation of the culture of deception in Washington is really no revelation at all. Most people familiar with the political climate in Washington knows it is replete with lies and liars.

    Thus, how is it feasible that deceptive people in charge of deceptive policies will honor a commitment to focus public monies and policies on resolving issues they have ignored or worse, encouraged, themselves for many years?

    Washington has the money and it is apparent that some black leaders believe fervently that a good portion of public funds can help ease some of the pain in black America. Such good intentions have no basis in fact. And even if supported, have no opportunity of progress in a Washington that has no conscience, morals or passion to quickly, legitimately and permanently resolve the problems of the black poor in America.

    I would like to see a discussion with J.C. Watts and those supporters of his efforts to create a new black TV network. I'm interested to know just how much focus will the issues discussed today have in a medium that deliberately targets the black populace.

    I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. I would like to add that Affirmative Action didn't begin as a public policy aimed at leveling the playing field nor has it done so. If the discussion is to include a focus on how public policy can render generations of policies moot and mitigate the current plights of millions of African Americans, some of who contribute mightily to their poor circumstances (speaking moreso of moral dilemmas that in turn create negative financial outcomes), then surely someone has devised some sort of public policy plan that if enacted would work to turn around the problems discussed today.

    I believe no such plan exists. No group, organization or individual has such a plan to implement in public policy. If such a plan existed, the numbers would have been floated by now instead of implying that MUCH more needs to be done. Well, how much more? What is that number? Where is the research, the data that supports any plan to extract black America from its degenerating place in society?

    The point I make is simply that government not only has no desire to resolve this issue, it has no power to do so and therefore makes little effort past the threshold necessary to garner political support for one party or the other.
    Scott McClellan's revelation of the culture of deception in Washington is really no revelation at all. Most people familiar with the political climate in Washington knows it is replete with lies and liars.

    Thus, how is it feasible that deceptive people in charge of deceptive policies will honor a commitment to focus public monies and policies on resolving issues they have ignored or worse, encouraged, themselves for many years?

    Washington has the money and it is apparent that some black leaders believe fervently that a good portion of public funds can help ease some of the pain in black America. Such good intentions have no basis in fact. And even if supported, have no opportunity of progress in a Washington that has no conscience, morals or passion to quickly, legitimately and permanently resolve the problems of the black poor in America.

    I would like to see a discussion with J.C. Watts and those supporters of his efforts to create a new black TV network. I'm interested to know just how much focus will the issues discussed today have in a medium that deliberately targets the black populace.

    I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. I would like to add that Affirmative Action didn't begin as a public policy aimed at leveling the playing field nor has it done so. If the discussion is to include a focus on how public policy can render generations of policies moot and mitigate the current plights of millions of African Americans, some of who contribute mightily to their poor circumstances (speaking moreso of moral dilemmas that in turn create negative financial outcomes), then surely someone has devised some sort of public policy plan that if enacted would work to turn around the problems discussed today.
    I believe no such plan exists. No group, organization or individual has such a plan to implement in public policy. If such a plan existed, the numbers would have been floated by now instead of implying that MUCH more needs to be done. Well, how much more? What is that number? Where is the research, the data that supports any plan to extract black America from its degenerating place in society?
    The point I make is simply that government not only has no desire to resolve this issue, it has no power to do so and therefore makes little effort past the threshold necessary to garner political support for one party or the other.
    Scott McClellan's revelation of the culture of deception in Washington is really no revelation at all. Most people familiar with the political climate in Washington knows it is replete with lies and liars.
    Thus, how is it feasible that deceptive people in charge of deceptive policies will honor a commitment to focus public monies and policies on resolving issues they have ignored or worse, encouraged, themselves for many years?
    Washington has the money and it is apparent that some black leaders believe fervently that a good portion of public funds can help ease some of the pain in black America. Such good intentions have no basis in fact. And even if supported, have no opportunity of progress in a Washington that has no conscience, morals or passion to quickly, legitimately and permanently resolve the problems of the black poor in America.
    I would like to see a discussion with J.C. Watts and those supporters of his efforts to create a new black TV network. I'm interested to know just how much focus will the issues discussed today have in a medium that deliberately targets the black populace.

    Mr. Blackmon's interview stirred up feelings in me that I have always had growing up in America- and I'm white. Because of these inescapable feelings of the inherent corruption woven into the very fabric of this nation I decided to leave. That was more than 20 years ago and I still have no plans to come back. What this interview really reminded me of was the real state of current affairs in this country today and the reflection of this dishonest system we see everyday on TV when 90% of the talking heads open their mouths and basically defend this skewed system by trying to silence the opposition and oppress any dissent. That the justice system is used to enforce this horribly wrong status quo is all too apparent as we look at the sorry results of the last years and Carl Rove's crusade for a permanent Republican majority: firing honest people and even putting them into jail- basically because they are trying to be honest.
    So what I saw today as I watched the story in this interview was that, what is going on today is really just the extension of this horrific economic system of terrorizing the home population and those trying to compete in a more honest way in order to dominate the system and maximize power and wealth. This is the basis of most countries, it's true, but the fever at which this evil is still pursued today in America is terrifying. Is this the influence of the south which has dominated national politics for at least the last 20 years? Are we moving ever closer to a national confederate state of mind where children are taught things such as intelligent design and worse?
    Oh, the hypocrisy of praising the Lord on Sunday and working hard to cheat, lie, steal and even kill on the other six days. Is this really the USA? Yes, it is.

    Obama is fighting telecom immunity. You go Obama. Prove yourself.

    http://rawstory.com/news08/2008/06/21/obama-ill-fight-to-strip-telecom-immunity-from-fisa/

    How are we to conduct
    Affirmative Action programs? What are the rules and why are the rules the rules.

    To; Bill Moyer
    Subject; Slavery by any other name
    Entry; Jeramiah Wright and this book seem like the same topic because the anger underneath this is really about treating african americans as second class citizens even today. The placing field is still not level. And that really changes the freedom that our soldiers are fighting for into freedom for whites only. How can I a white American live with this lie.
    Bob

    Affirmative action for Black Americans should not be watered down. Extending some help to all disadvantaged segments should be looked into. Breaking the bonds of poverty and ignorance is a noble goal. We should acknowledge that many Hispanics do not need nor do they deserve special treatment. They should come under the economic disadvantaged if it is their true condition.

    Affirmative action for Black Americans should not be watered down. Extending some help to all disadvantaged segments should be looked into. Breaking the bonds of poverty and ignorance is a noble goal. We should acknowledge that many Hispanics do not need nor do they deserve special treatment. They should come under the economic disadvantaged if it is their true condition.

    anything more

    Correction: The University graduated Ralph Reed, a generational cohort behind me. Most of these men are scholars and successful political leaders.

    Maybe, Senator Obama will fail in his bid, I hope not.

    I am old Georgia boy, the grandson of a Tallmadge Democrat on one side and an urban Georgia racist on the other side. My parents supported Republicans in the fifties and sixties. But I am going to vote for Senator Obama if I am alive and well in the fall.

    Senator Saxby Chambliss, Senator Phil Gramm, Dr. Ralph Reed, and Representative Newt Gwinrich all share with me a history of roots in Georgia. Senator Saxby Chambliss was graduated from the University of Georgia a year before I graduated. The university awarded former Senator Phil Gramm his doctorate in economics the year the university graduated me. My father campaigned three times for former Speaker of the House Newton Gingrich, two times when Dr. Gingrich lost. A generational cohort behind me, the University of Georgia graduated Ralph Reed, Jr. Most of these men are scholars and successful political leaders.

    All of my generational cohorts mentioned here as well as Dr. Reed have failed to give us satisfactory leadership. Phil Gramm advocated a failed policy of deregulation that has cost our people billions of dollars. Saxby Chambliss, like President Bush and Vice-President Chaney, assailed the patriotism of an American hero to beat him in an election. Dr. Gingrich has never been nothing than a morally numb demagogue. Even though he was a fellow member of the Demosthenian Literary Society and not the brick heap across the way as was Dr. Gramm, Dr. Reed is not any better than Dr. Gingrich. He too is a cheap manipulative demagogue.

    At the university I was active as a Young Republican part of the time I was a student. I was registered as a Republican for 40 years. I am a poor and not well educated white man. But, in November if the Lord wills it and the creek doesn’t rise, I am going to vote for Senator Obama even though he seems utterly ruthless and profoundly inexperienced. I admire Senator McCain. I really want to vote for him. I really do want to support him, but the current crop of Republican disgraced themselves. They do not represent the Republican Party I knew in my childhood and early adulthood. They do represent a massive failure morally, intellectually, and politically.

    We need to get rid of them. I am ashamed of the disgrace my fellow Georgia boys have brought us.

    Duck Soup,

    Thank you for the Paul Alexander piece from Salon. I appreciate getting to read it.

    SEGREGATION??

    SPELL FREEDOM BACKWARDS , MISSOURI DEREGULATED FREEDOM ,

    MISSOURI DEE RIGHT FREE

    Another way to reinstitute Slavery By Another Name..The Church Low Wages, The System,400 years,The Promise of 40 Acre and a Mule??? Not Knowing Your True Name?? But! was Beat Into you the Slave Master Name?? For Instance... McCarther??? that what i was born with But... that not my name i believe it is an Irish or Scot Sir Name Anyone with insight on this... How Would you feel and how would you act???????? THE COLOR OF JUSTICE IS GREEN.

    I have only one thing to say to the Kitrina Brown Family and DeWolf families who profitted from free black labor and brutality -its not REPARATIONS, its not AFFIRMATIVE ACTION its called INDEMNIFICATION - repayment for loss or damages!!! Until we sit down and determine how much dollars are owed to the descendants of slaves forced into slave labor to build America receiving no wages, for the years of insitutional racism and genocide committed against African Americans for which the US executive and judicial branch are complicit, there will be no resolution to the African American dilemma. America has rewritten her history to hide its shameful past and now it is time to pay up!!

    I also noticed on this blog that many had words to say about the two Blacks on the show but hardly anyone addressed Mr. Blackmon's story and commented how Blacks are and were treated in this country. No one wants to address who Blacks are treated today in this imprison all black era..it is ok because that means that whites are 'safe' and black truely are better off in prisons where they die and suffer. I am not saying all Blacks in prison are innocent but many are and many have died in error. But you won't hear white America saying they are sorry for this. Will not hear them stand up and do the right thing but hey look what they are doing in Iraq..kill the 'rag heads' for whites feel that they are better and the Iraqi people are less than and that the oil belongs to them. I am not saying that some Blacks don't feel the same way (mostly republicans) but hey it is a sad day that we preach what a great country this is and than torture those who are not white and conceived to be less than whites in this country. Very sad that no one is standing up to correct what our government has done in our names, no one is ready to be counted to do the right thing...the ones in power or have access to that power has not said , US government, you will stop and desist in committing these crimes and everyone will shut down the roads, drive 55mph, conserve and stop using oil and let's see the 1% whites complain and not get the riches they think they deserve. Stand up people and so something to assure that we as Americans are not seen as the selfish and ignorant thugs we are.

    I have to say that I was very interested in Mr Blackmon story and will buy his book. I did not know that this was being done in the front of my head but as he stated it was part of the stories told. What got me was the sense that whites felt entitled to their freedom and rights but Blacks were considered less than...that is still going on today by mostly 1st & 2nd generation of whites who don't know the history of this country but no less feel that they are better than Blacks who have been here, suffering for centuries. There was a story on PBS about a time when the levees broke in LA and New Orleans and blacks were forced by US government as well as white towns people to dig ditches and rebuild the levees instead of being evaculated like the whites were. This was covered by the news of the day and no one said a word it was assumed like Mrs Bush (Jr. mom) that the Blacks who were sent to Texas after Katrina were happy to be homeless for they did not come from anything in the first place. What about the hundreds of home owners who lost their homes, not all were welfare receipants, you know. It is always assumed that Blacks don't work, don't want to work, don't have a brain, are lazy (who washed your butts?) But no one stood up for the injustices of this country and than you crazy people complain when M. Obama said the 1st time in her adult life she is proud of the country... what ever!

    The unemployment rate for Black men in Milwaukee, WI is 65% (see University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee black unemployment, economic study) Black male unemployment hovering around 50% nationally is why you have the black youth gunning other black people down across the U.S.
    The enslavement of Black people is a deep, painful emotional burden in the American psyche! This pain is also expressed in high homicide rates, too.

    MLK made an excellent analogy about the macro and micro world. While Risen's story is very valid on a larger scale, and yes, Corporations are not held accountable, I personally experienced a devestating series of assaults on me, my family and my career for whistleblowing, sort of, to give you an idea, i'm a tiny sweet pea of a a/v guy from the south bronx 57K annual salary, who had a blog, and expressed some shennanigans. Boy did they wield their mighty stick and painted me as a terrorist sympathizer, "crazy" sounds familiar? when you reach this low to the bottom of the barrel, somthing definetely stinks in Denmark. Arise dissembler. Arise for the Lord God will right the wrongs and the people will see enough is enough.

    This debate about race ran into class. This is a very difficult problem. How to solve class and race issues? It's something our country avoids. I applaud your program. Perhaps more reporting about these topics will keep discussions like this thriving like the ones on your comments page.

    I found the entire show very interesting - I would hope that Mr. Moyer would do a show in the near future looking at the efforts being made to use Latino's, documented and undocumented to fill this roll of cheap labor in the current economy. It seems the government is doing everything it can to keep immigrants intimidated and scrambling for work most of which will be paying very little.

    The discussion about unfair laws which punish the use of crack (black) in disproportion to cocaine (white)filling prisons with a burden on everyone. Education, jobs, prison, welfare, i get tired thinking about it.

    This interview was disappointingly tedious. The two professors offered nothing more than a rehash of familiar views on race in America, e.g., affirmative action is necessary, white privilege, the deplorable state of our inner cities has its roots in slavery, etc. The views are merely gussied-up with the verbiage of scholars.

    Neither Patterson nor Loury offered anything new on the subject of affirmative action, most likely because there is no new ground to be plowed on the topic. Most people are already familiar with all the arguments, both pro and con, surrounding the issue. It's simply a matter of deciding which side of the issue you come down on.

    Loury clearly comes down in favor of affirmative action, and despite his hedging, believes it should be reserved for blacks.

    I'm looking forward to sampling the books of both these professors. If, however, the books are written in the same style and lack of insightfulness that was displayed in the interview, reading them will have been time not well spent.

    As I watch your program of June 20, 2008 I wonder if you would want to read my recent book: "Cemeteries of Ambivalent Desire: Unearthing deep south narratives from a Texas graveyard" 2008 Texas A&M Press.

    It covers the Imperial Sugar Company in Sugar Land Texas, prison labor, post reconstruction, and the lives of Mexican American laborers.

    Racism isn't dead yet.
    Mr. Patterson talked about Cambridge Rindge & Latin School in Cambridge, Massachusetts. When I attended, it was called Cambridge High & Latin. It was located steps away from Harvard Yard and Harvard Square. The students who attended "Latin" were multi-cultured, multi-varied financially and very diverse. It was a great place to go to school. Racism was almost non-existent; especially with the expansiveness of Harvard Yard.

    In 1968, when I attended latin, there were two black mayors in the United States. Today, there are over 600. Barack Obama will soon receive the Democratic Nomination for President of the United States. It may seem that racism is going out the door, but hold on there...

    In the 2008 Presidential Election, Americans will prove that racism is not dead. In public everyone says they are open-minded, not prejudice and would vote for Mr. Obama, but would they? I say not. When those curtins close, Americans will choose. Change and Hope vs. Security; ie., job security, health security and national security.

    Though I am a liberal Democrat from Massachusetts who voted for Deval Patrick, Mr. Obama cannot defeat Mr. McCain. Most white, working class Americans have no relevancy to Obama; they don;t share common bonds and values, but many do with McCain.

    Finally, this is not all about race, but about culture too. I think that prejudice against Arabs is just as important as race will be. There is a subtle prejudice, distrust and dislike against anything Arabic and/or Muslim because of 9/11 and the War. So if this is a component of racism (against Arabs), then it will be a viable factor in the next election, and I believe will affect Mr. Obama, and he would lose to Mr. McCain.

    Americans will not elect an Intellectual, Ivy League educated blackman with an Arabic name (that sounds like Osama), is a known marijuiana user (an alledged Big Time Pot Head), has very little experience, has precarious friends and associates, and bowls a 37...not over a war hero..no way.

    We are making too much about Mr. Obama and not realizing that it is possible that the Democrats will lose the 2008 Presidential Election against someone who supports George W. Bush and has vowed to stay in Iraq for 100 years. If the Democrats lose this election, the entire leadership of the Democratic Party should resign, and believe me, although I want Mr. Obama to win, he cannot.

    With Obama vs McCain, it will be a TABLOID Election about race, friends and flag pins, nothing about issues. Just what the Republicans want. Mr. Obama lost PA, OH, CA, MA, FLA and NY...do you really think he can win in the General Election..no way.

    Hillary is the only choice to regain the Oval Office.

    Finally, as a Democrat I am disgusted with our team...Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Howard Dean...please. Makes me want to vomit. Can we get anymore to the Left. If we lose this election, I am changing to Independent; and I thnk it is inevitable.

    GC Assad

    Racism isn't dead yet.
    Mr. Patterson talked about Cambridge Rindge & Latin School in Cambridge, Massachusetts. When I attended, it was called Cambridge High & Latin. It was located steps away from Harvard Yard and Harvard Square. The students who attended "Latin" were multi-cultured, multi-varied financially and very diverse. It was a great place to go to school. Racism was almost non-existent; especially with the expansiveness of Harvard Yard.

    In 1968, when I attended Cambridge Latin, there were two black mayors in the United States. Today, there are over 600. Barack Obama will soon receive the Democratic Nomination for President of the United States. It may seem that racism is going out the door, but hold on there...

    In the 2008 Presidential Election, Americans will prove that racism is not dead. In public everyone says they are open-minded, not prejudice and would vote for Mr. Obama, but would they? I say not. When those curtins close, Americans will choose. Change and Hope vs. Security; ie., job security, health security and national security.

    Though I am a liberal Democrat from Massachusetts who voted for Deval Patrick, Mr. Obama cannot defeat Mr. McCain. Most white, working class Americans have no relevancy to Obama; they don;t share common bonds and values, but many do with McCain.

    Finally, this is not all about race, but about culture too. I think that prejudice against Arabs is just as important as race will be. There is a subtle prejudice, distrust and dislike against anything Arabic and/or Muslim because of 9/11 and the War. So if this is a component of racism (against Arabs), then it will be a viable factor in the next election, and I believe will affect Mr. Obama, and he would lose to Mr. McCain.

    Americans will not elect an Intellectual, Ivy League educated blackman with an Arabic name (that sounds like Osama), is a known marijuiana user (an alledged Big Time Pot Head), has very little experience, has precarious friends and associates, and bowls a 37...not over a war hero..no way.

    We are making too much about Mr. Obama and not realizing that it is possible that the Democrats will lose the 2008 Presidential Election against someone who supports George W. Bush and has vowed to stay in Iraq for 100 years. If the Democrats lose this election, the entire leadership of the Democratic Party should resign, and believe me, although I want Mr. Obama to win, he cannot.

    With Obama vs McCain, it will be a TABLOID Election about race, friends and flag pins, nothing about issues. Just what the Republicans want. Mr. Obama lost PA, OH, CA, MA, FLA and NY...do you really think he can win in the General Election..no way.

    Hillary is the only choice to regain the Oval Office.

    Finally, as a Democrat I am disgusted with our team...Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Howard Dean...please. Makes me want to vomit. Can we get anymore to the Left. If we lose this election, I am changing to Independent; and I thnk it is inevitable.

    GC Assad

    Paul Alexander, the author of a new book on Rove, just published a must-read chapter on Salon:

    http://www.salon.com/books/excerpt/2008/06/06/rove_katrina/

    I think it about sums up the selfishness and incompetence of Republican politicians. It's no coincidence ordinary Americans have been left behind over the past 7 years.

    Interesting Program:
    Thanks Bill Moyers for giving these professors the opportunity to discuss our issues as (Brown Colored) Americans. I never really like calling myself black or African American when I can’t even trace my heritage and I don’t like the idea of not having alternative choices. I've read through most of the posted remarks here and still find it interesting that some whites still done understand the effects of slavery and they probably never will. I'm from one of these dilapidated low income house projects. It's sad to say but my whole mother/father side of family failed to recognized education as the real true escape from low/middle class. Call me blessed or lucky but I'm a true believer in education and how it has catapulted me and my family to upper middle class. I’m giving all credit to the civil rights leaders before me...I say “thank you”. I do feel that our black communities need a lot of psychological counseling. In my opinion the main reason we fail to get educated is the fact that we're too busy trying to survive in our neighborhoods which "our white counterparts" still don't understand. I believe I speak for most of our lower income families that our first priority is survival. That means: food, rent, utility bills. (Did anyone notice that clothes, transportation, vacations, trips to the library and etc…wasn’t mentioned) and please the Great Depression doesn’t have anything on slavery/jim crow/ segregation effects and poor public schools that don’t teach you crap about making it in the real world like beacon scores or interest rates for good credit and bad credit scenario’s. I realized that when I was taken remedial classes in junior college. Education is a big difference in public ~vs~ private. I've been attempting to think of ways to excite the youth about the advantages of education but they seem to be more tuned into other non educational activities. And I agree that a large portion of that is from not having a solid family background weather it’s a mother or father figure. I hate to irritate more white people but only a small portion of blacks are upper middle class and only (we) can see the benefits of education. Don’t get me wrong I'm not saying that the middle class doesn't...I'm just saying not many. And then there’s that learning curve to manage your money, which again puts us in unfamiliar circumstances. What slavery and Jim crow processes have done to our culture will take just as long to get rid of the ignorance that was developed in our communities. So, I believe we should be careful how (Obama) deals with AA. We're just starting to learn the process of being educated and making good money decisions that will outlast our generations to come. (For the "whites" that still thinks this is unfair....I guess you’ll never know because your culture has never experience the tactics used to keep blacks (I say brown's) in their place. So, stop trying to make common sense out of it!

    SLMC, NC

    Once again Mr. Moyers another good program on race and social issues, congratulations. However, I am sure there is more sides, views and facts behind these stories and statements said by all your guests tonight. History is comprised of many different events lived by many different people. I think the important thing is to learn about the mistakes of the past and to vow not to do them again, but sometimes it seems that we are not learning fast enough.

    Not too long ago the US Congress felt a need to pass an internationally controversial resolution declaring the Turkish treatment of Armenians as "genocide". What was behind this inexplicable action? Why has the US Congress not felt a similar obligation to make such a declaration regarding the US treatment of its indiginous Native Americans or the pervasive phenomenon of Slavery?

    The United States currently gives over 3 Billion dollars a year of our taxpayer money to help fund the ILLEGAL Israeli occupation of Palestine Land, the Israeli Inhuman Treatment of the Palestine People, the Israeli refusal to allow the Palestine People the right of return and support for Israel dropping secretly provided cluster bombs on the Women and Children of Lebanon. How many babies died in their mother's wombs? Why isn't there a National Discussion of the United States blind support of Israel?

    Wow, your show provides great material for my classroom.

    Interculturalism!

    These debates are fascinating.

    A guest pointed out that it seemed Obama wanted to transcend a lot of the older identity politics; a lot of the old questions. I wouldn't say he wanted to necessarily transcend them, but I think it's more that he wants to shift the conversation. I think Obama wants to ask different questions. I think he wants to enact some of the theories that have been doing laps at the universities.

    Bill, I think this show is so very important. Keep up the great interviews and I appreciate that you keep discussions of race in your show.

    Thank you for tonight's program, full of perspectives and information all should know.

    There are universal needs that apply to every person in this country. They are not limited by class or race, though the degree of the need by each individual varies in part due to class and race, among other parameters.

    The goal of government policies should be to provide the mechanisms, personnel, and funding that make possible fulfillment of these needs by all. These needs are:

    1. To feel validated and valued as a person;
    2. To have equitable access to the structures and services of civilization that allow them to be the best they can be;
    3. To be treated with equality and fairness in all aspects of their daily life;
    4. To participate in their communities in social, educational, and religious endeavors without experiencing discrimination or persecution;
    5. To be viewed as a positive part of this country's population;
    6. To participate without prejudice, obstruction, or delay in political activity, including voting, and in the political party of their choice.

    Senator Obama offers the best hope that such a vision of equal opportunity, fairness, and equality can become part of our becoming a more perfect union. We MUST mature beyond focusing on our own wounds. We Must emerge from the bondage of the past to a uniting together on a joint journey to making liberty and justice for all our mutual reality.

    Mr. Moyers, by doing your job as a journalist well, you are a hero among men. Thank you for this fabulous program.
    It seems difficult for many to understand how painful patterns of behavior are passed through generations. When people say "but it happened fifty years ago", I don't think they are taking into account how deeply the behaviors of our forbearers affect us. However, my intention is not to lay blame, but to say that fifty years is NOT a long time as we come to realize our economy was built by the use of torture. Slaves were not only kidnapped, bought, sold, humiliated, abused and violated. When they were emancipated, they were then blamed by people from the south for the losses of the Civil War. Vigilante groups like the KKK rose out of this disdain. Reconstituted slaves were wrongly integrated into the prison system, where many are today. The statistics showing how many African Americans have been incarcerated since winning the right to vote, are staggering.
    Someone wrote in on this blog that African Americans were not the only slaves in history. True, but in this country, we still, as a nation must see the inequities stemming from this tragedy of inhumanity. Is the point to argue what color or culture slaves were? Isn't the point that slavery is wrong, and it happened in a very big way, and that many many people suffered? We bring it up to acknowledge that it happened and realize how the un-enslaved are complicit. We must vow to never let it happen again. We can realize how insidious it is, call out places we see it. We see how it hides in our economy, now in sweatshops, in China, Viet Nam, in Mexico etc. Isn't the point of witnessing our mistakes to learn? I do not see the point of down dressing the speakers or Mr. Moyers. They did a marvelous job breaking the ice on issues where there is a LOT more to say. I hope for many more programs like this.

    Mr. Moyers, your interviews
    with mr.Patterson,Loury,and
    Blackmon were most informa-
    tive. I throughly enjoyed
    the program. IT was one of
    the best. Show me more.

    I am white.
    My children are of mixed race.
    We lived in Hawaii. We were on welfare. I am happy to have been able to be home with my young children and attend school (with loans) and volunteer at their elementary school.
    (I think mothers should all be able to do what I did when the father is absent. They should not be forced to work at some low-paying job. If anything, they can be trained to work in child care and be with their children.)
    The result of my presence and example is two college educated adult children.
    Did they receive affirmative action? not really. One struggled at a university which had cut affirmative action, but made it through and is successful. The other had academic grants/scholarships and graduated from a prestigious university.

    I do feel that affirmative action should be part of the process, but it should begin even younger than college, since the problems in achieving equal education begin at much younger ages.
    Not all families are going to aspire to a college education. There should be technical school programs beginning in the early teen years.
    Also, affirmative action was targeted at other groups, not just blacks; Native Americans, for instance. I feel there is undue focus on African Americans and what they do and do not "deserve." Why do we even have to have such a conversation?
    All the good ideas of the past have been abused and abandoned instead of fixed.

    This is why I listen to Barack Obama: he is open to discussion and really hearing people, including the disenfranchised, and he is vocal about each of us sharing in solutions.

    I loved the debate.
    As an earlier poster stated, the two men came from different backgrounds, as was evident in their discussion, but what a joy to even be hearing this kind of dialog.
    I hope this nation can continue to consult on all issues with respect, and open minds and hearts.
    The race and poverty dialog is crucial and if not now, when?
    We also need to re-define labels, so that if someone holds a different opinion, we don't dismiss them and set aside their sincere views under a negative label.
    Thanks for listening, and thanks for offering wonderful discussions.

    Educated men can be pathetic as demonstated by Mr Loury. I heard nothing new along with the continuous victimization story. Mr. Loury seems to think that blacks should have a greater percentage selected through affimitive action than any other 20% of the population. The program is race based any way you look at it. The statement that society was always structured for the destruction of the black family is more than ignorance comming from an educated man. Forty years ago you would not find the extreme percentage of unwed mothers among Blacks.
    The slave trade was a world institution long before America was a country. It is well known that the largest slave trader in this hemisphere was a Black woman.
    Why does the media only talk about Black slavery? Mr Patterson's statement that Africans have been here longer than Whites is absurd.
    There is evidence that the Alba, Scots, Irish and Pics have been the longest race held in slavery. Alexander Stewart was herded off the Gildart in July of 1747, bound with chains pushed onto the auction block in Wecomica, St Mary’s County, Maryland. Alexander tells of the other 88 Scots sold into slavery that day in “THE LYON IN MOURNING” pages 242-243. There were hundreds of thousands of Scots sold into slavery during Colonial America. White slavery to the American Colonies occurred as early as 1630 in Scotland. According to the Egerton manuscript, British Museum, the enactment of 1652.
    The Calendar of State Papers, Colonial Series of 1701 records 25000 slaves in Barbados in which 21700 were white slaves. George Downing wrote a letter to the honorable John Winthrop Colonial Governor of Massachusetts in 1645, “planters who want to make a fortune in the West Indies must procure white slave labor out of England if they wanted to succeed.” Lewis Cecil Gray’s History of Agriculture in the Southern United States to 1860 vol.1 pp 316, 318 records Sir George Sandys’ 1618 plan for Virginia, referring to bound whites assigned to the treasurer’s office. “To belong to said office forever. The service of whites bound to Berkeley Hundred was deemed perpetual.” The Quoke Walker case in Massachusetts 1773 ruled that; slavery contrary to the state Constitution was applied equally to Blacks and Whites in Massachusetts. Statutes at Large of Virginia, vol. 1 pp. 174, 198, 200, 243 & 306 did not discriminate Negroes in bondage from Whites in Bondage. Colonial Office, Public Records Office, London 1667, no. 170 records that “even Blacks referred to the White forced laborers in the colonies as “white slaves.” Black slaves were “late comers fitted into a system already developed.” Pp 25-26. John Pory declared in 1619, “white slaves are our principle wealth.” The above quotations from various authors are just the tip of the iceberg on the white slave trade of the Americas. Bridenbaugh wrote in his accounting on page 118, having paid a bigger price for the Negro, the planters treated the black better than they did their “Christian” white servant. Even the Negroes recognized this and did not hesitate to show their contempt for those white men who, they could see, were worse off than themselves. Governments have allowed this part of American and British history to be swallowed up.



    Mr. Moyers and others would be making a grave mistake if they believe that simply because Mr. Patterson and Mr. Loury share a skin color and a deplorable heritage of slavery their experiences are the same. The "mean streets" of the Caribbean are different from the mean streets of the United States. No doubt, if Mr. Patterson and Mr. Loury were discussing slavery and British colonialism in the West Indies, Mr. Loury would be as much out of his element as Mr. Patterson is in discussing the black American experience in the United States. A"lived" experience in a society will always be different from that culled from books and the superficial observations of the visitor -- even the long-term resident-- or the most meticulous scholor. That makes it easier for Mr. Patterson to minimize the suffering of the African American and even to easily grant absolution to his victimizers--especially from the ivory towers of Harvard.

    At the end of the segment from the Brown documentary and the discussion of Mr. Blackmon's book, "Slavery by Another Name," Mr. Moyers commented that he could understand the bitternessof the black American.
    Neither Mr. Moyers nor Mr. Patterson drew the parallel between imprisonment of black people after Emancipation on the slighest pretense in order to re-enslave them and the prison industrial complex of today when black Americans are imprisoned at twice the rate of white Americans and given longer sentences for the same crimes. Isn't that a way of re-enslaving black people?

    Mr. Patterson and Mr. Loury are well matched in debating skills, but their culture and their native geographical locations differ, so their conclusions will differ because their situations and their suffering are different. You can't lump together the Caribbean blacks and the American blacks anymore than you can the Irish and the English though they share a skin color.

    Thanks you Bill moyer. The discussion was worth every minute for the program.

    Thank you for an excellent program. Public policy, disproportionate universalism, identity politics and intercultural ism. All areas calling for greater understanding and communication. But perhaps we as a nation who have profited so greatly through slavery can offer a reparation that will actually heal an entire race of people with no history. With our DNA sciences we can give the elders (not the youth/no profiling data bases)of the black community an opportunity to know where they come from. A history, a soul, a connection wrenched away and of core value to all people. I'm not talking about a back to Africa movement, but a beginning for black Americans to become whole people. Perhaps that will have the effect of participating in changing the context of the entire Black experience.

    Americans sheltered from the truth of slavery in the 20th century weren’t necessarily the privileged but indifferent to the suffering of others. My parents were born in 1910 and 1926, both picked cotton in Southeast Texas from the age of 10 years old and they picked cotton until 1946. They often told me the stories of how they would work the fields from sunrise to sunset; after hearing their story for the first time as a kid I would often ask them to tell it to me again.

    They told me they had it good compared to the “niggers”… that's a surprising thing.

    They told me the farm owners had hired hands with horses and rifles to watch over the “niggers” in the field. The first time they told me the story was during the civil rights movement; I asked my dad how could that because slavery was outlawed by President Lincoln, my mom said Lincoln never been to Texas.

    Excuse the dupes.

    Your server was more than a bit SLUGGISH!!!

    Moyers your black interviews are most sincere and your libertarian whities have the most integrity.

    What's missing is the INDIGENOUS voice.

    Why do you think that is?

    Because they are a members of "SOVEREIGN NATION" within US borders? Give me break!

    For the most part all of your guests are IGNORANT of the fact that Buckminster Fuller and Kirtzweil have already resolved the scarcity dilemma. Are you as well? You know what BINARY ECONOMICS is, RIGHT?

    SNAP QUIZ: Why is it called Con Edison, instead of Con Tesla?

    ANSWER: The same reason the Sicilian Scalia got strait A's in school and MAFIA born Giuliani got to run for POTUS.

    THEY CHEATED!!!

    RIDDLE ME THIS: Why did all of the following DEMS vote to overrule the 4th Amendment today, despite their oath of office to PROTECT the US CONSTITUTION?

    FISA TURNCOATS - BLUE DOGS or INVERTEBRATES

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2008-437&sort=party

    Aye NY-5 Ackerman, Gary [D]
    Aye PA-4 Altmire, Jason [D]
    Aye NY-24 Arcuri, Michael [D]
    Aye CA-43 Baca, Joe [D]
    Aye WA-3 Baird, Brian [D]
    Nay WI-2 Baldwin, Tammy [D]
    Aye GA-12 Barrow, John [D]
    Aye IL-8 Bean, Melissa [D]
    Aye NV-1 Berkley, Shelley [D]
    Aye CA-28 Berman, Howard [D]
    Aye AR-1 Berry, Robert [D]
    Aye GA-2 Bishop, Sanford [D]
    Aye NY-1 Bishop, Timothy [D]
    Aye OK-2 Boren, Dan [D]
    Aye IA-3 Boswell, Leonard [D]
    Aye VA-9 Boucher, Frederick [D]
    Aye FL-2 Boyd, F. [D]
    Aye KS-2 Boyda, Nancy [D]
    Aye FL-3 Brown, Corrine [D]
    Aye NC-1 Butterfield, George [D]
    Aye CA-18 Cardoza, Dennis [D]
    Aye PA-10 Carney, Christopher [D]
    Aye FL-11 Castor, Kathy [D]
    Aye LA-6 Cazayoux, Donald [D]
    Aye KY-6 Chandler, Ben [D]
    Aye MS-1 Childers, Travis [D]
    Aye MO-5 Cleaver, Emanuel [D]
    Aye SC-6 Clyburn, James [D]
    Aye TN-5 Cooper, Jim [D]
    Aye CA-20 Costa, Jim [D]
    Aye AL-5 Cramer, Robert [D]
    Aye NY-7 Crowley, Joseph [D]
    Aye TX-28 Cuellar, Henry [D]
    Aye AL-7 Davis, Artur [D]
    Aye TN-4 Davis, Lincoln [D]
    Aye WA-6 Dicks, Norman [D]
    Aye IN-2 Donnelly, Joe [D]
    Aye TX-17 Edwards, Thomas [D]
    Aye IN-8 Ellsworth, Brad [D]
    Aye IL-5 Emanuel, Rahm [D]
    Aye NY-17 Engel, Eliot [D]
    Aye NC-2 Etheridge, Bob [D]
    Aye AZ-8 Giffords, Gabrielle [D]
    Aye NY-20 Gillibrand, Kirsten [D]
    Aye TN-6 Gordon, Barton [D]
    Aye TX-9 Green, Al [D]
    Aye TX-29 Green, Raymond [D]
    Aye IL-4 Gutierrez, Luis [D]
    Aye CA-36 Harman, Jane [D]
    Aye FL-23 Hastings, Alcee [D]
    Aye SD-0 Herseth Sandlin, Stephanie [D]
    Aye NY-27 Higgins, Brian [D]
    Aye TX-15 Hinojosa, Rubén [D]
    Aye PA-17 Holden, Tim [D]
    Aye MD-5 Hoyer, Steny [D]
    Aye PA-11 Kanjorski, Paul [D]
    Aye MI-5 Kildee, Dale [D]
    Aye WI-3 Kind, Ronald [D]
    Aye FL-22 Klein, Ron [D]
    Aye TX-22 Lampson, Nicholas [D]
    Aye RI-2 Langevin, James [D]
    Aye IL-3 Lipinski, Daniel [D]
    Aye NY-18 Lowey, Nita [D]
    Aye FL-16 Mahoney, Tim [D]
    Aye GA-8 Marshall, James [D]
    Aye UT-2 Matheson, Jim [D]
    Aye NY-4 McCarthy, Carolyn [D]
    Aye NC-7 McIntyre, Mike [D]
    Aye CA-11 McNerney, Jerry [D]
    Aye NY-6 Meeks, Gregory [D]
    Aye LA-3 Melancon, Charles [D]
    Aye AZ-5 Mitchell, Harry [D]
    Aye KS-3 Moore, Dennis [D]
    Aye PA-8 Murphy, Patrick [D]
    Aye PA-12 Murtha, John [D]
    Aye TX-27 Ortiz, Solomon [D]
    Aye CA-8 Pelosi, Nancy [D]
    Aye CO-7 Perlmutter, Ed [D]
    Aye MN-7 Peterson, Collin [D]
    Aye ND-0 Pomeroy, Earl [D]
    Aye WV-3 Rahall, Nick [D]
    Aye TX-16 Reyes, Silvestre [D]
    Aye CA-37 Richardson, Laura [D]
    Aye TX-23 Rodriguez, Ciro [D]
    Aye AR-4 Ross, Mike [D]
    Aye MD-2 Ruppersberger, C.A. [D]
    No Vote IL-1 Rush, Bobby [D]
    Aye CO-3 Salazar, John [D]
    Aye CA-29 Schiff, Adam [D]
    Aye GA-13 Scott, David [D]
    Aye PA-7 Sestak, Joe [D]
    Aye CA-27 Sherman, Brad [D]
    Aye NC-11 Shuler, Heath [D]
    Aye NJ-13 Sires, Albio [D]
    Aye MO-4 Skelton, Ike [D]
    Aye WA-9 Smith, Adam [D]
    Aye AR-2 Snyder, Victor [D]
    Aye OH-18 Space, Zackary [D]
    Aye SC-5 Spratt, John [D]
    No Vote CA-13 Stark, Fortney [D]
    Aye MI-1 Stupak, Bart [D]
    Aye TN-8 Tanner, John [D]
    Aye CA-10 Tauscher, Ellen [D]
    Aye MS-4 Taylor, Gene [D]
    Aye MS-2 Thompson, Bennie [D]
    Aye CO-2 Udall, Mark [D]
    No Vote IN-1 Visclosky, Peter [D]
    Aye OH-6 Wilson, Charles [D]
    Aye KY-3 Yarmuth, John [D]

    FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    PS: What is POSSE COMITATUS? What is COINTELPRO? What caused WTC-7 to collapse on 9/11?

    FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Moyers your black interviews are most sincere and your libertarian whities have the most integrity.

    What's missing is the INDIGENOUS voice.

    Why do you think that is?

    Because they are a members of "SOVEREIGN NATION" within US borders? Give me fucklen break!

    For the most part all of your guests are IGNORANT of the fact that Buckminster Fuller and Kirtzweil have already resolved the scarcity dilemma. Are you as well? You know what BINARY ECONOMICS is, RIGHT?

    SNAP QUIZ: Why is it called Con Edison, instead of Con Tesla?

    ANSWER: The same reason the Sicilian Scalia got strait A's in school and MAFIA born Giuliani got to run for POTUS.

    THEY CHEATED!!!

    RIDDLE ME THIS: Why did all of the following DEMS vote to overrule the 4th Amendment today, despite their oath of office to PROTECT the US CONSTITUTION?

    FISA TURNCOATS - BLUE DOGS or INVERTEBRATES

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2008-437&sort=party

    Aye NY-5 Ackerman, Gary [D]
    Aye PA-4 Altmire, Jason [D]
    Aye NY-24 Arcuri, Michael [D]
    Aye CA-43 Baca, Joe [D]
    Aye WA-3 Baird, Brian [D]
    Nay WI-2 Baldwin, Tammy [D]
    Aye GA-12 Barrow, John [D]
    Aye IL-8 Bean, Melissa [D]
    Aye NV-1 Berkley, Shelley [D]
    Aye CA-28 Berman, Howard [D]
    Aye AR-1 Berry, Robert [D]
    Aye GA-2 Bishop, Sanford [D]
    Aye NY-1 Bishop, Timothy [D]
    Aye OK-2 Boren, Dan [D]
    Aye IA-3 Boswell, Leonard [D]
    Aye VA-9 Boucher, Frederick [D]
    Aye FL-2 Boyd, F. [D]
    Aye KS-2 Boyda, Nancy [D]
    Aye FL-3 Brown, Corrine [D]
    Aye NC-1 Butterfield, George [D]
    Aye CA-18 Cardoza, Dennis [D]
    Aye PA-10 Carney, Christopher [D]
    Aye FL-11 Castor, Kathy [D]
    Aye LA-6 Cazayoux, Donald [D]
    Aye KY-6 Chandler, Ben [D]
    Aye MS-1 Childers, Travis [D]
    Aye MO-5 Cleaver, Emanuel [D]
    Aye SC-6 Clyburn, James [D]
    Aye TN-5 Cooper, Jim [D]
    Aye CA-20 Costa, Jim [D]
    Aye AL-5 Cramer, Robert [D]
    Aye NY-7 Crowley, Joseph [D]
    Aye TX-28 Cuellar, Henry [D]
    Aye AL-7 Davis, Artur [D]
    Aye TN-4 Davis, Lincoln [D]
    Aye WA-6 Dicks, Norman [D]
    Aye IN-2 Donnelly, Joe [D]
    Aye TX-17 Edwards, Thomas [D]
    Aye IN-8 Ellsworth, Brad [D]
    Aye IL-5 Emanuel, Rahm [D]
    Aye NY-17 Engel, Eliot [D]
    Aye NC-2 Etheridge, Bob [D]
    Aye AZ-8 Giffords, Gabrielle [D]
    Aye NY-20 Gillibrand, Kirsten [D]
    Aye TN-6 Gordon, Barton [D]
    Aye TX-9 Green, Al [D]
    Aye TX-29 Green, Raymond [D]
    Aye IL-4 Gutierrez, Luis [D]
    Aye CA-36 Harman, Jane [D]
    Aye FL-23 Hastings, Alcee [D]
    Aye SD-0 Herseth Sandlin, Stephanie [D]
    Aye NY-27 Higgins, Brian [D]
    Aye TX-15 Hinojosa, Rubén [D]
    Aye PA-17 Holden, Tim [D]
    Aye MD-5 Hoyer, Steny [D]
    Aye PA-11 Kanjorski, Paul [D]
    Aye MI-5 Kildee, Dale [D]
    Aye WI-3 Kind, Ronald [D]
    Aye FL-22 Klein, Ron [D]
    Aye TX-22 Lampson, Nicholas [D]
    Aye RI-2 Langevin, James [D]
    Aye IL-3 Lipinski, Daniel [D]
    Aye NY-18 Lowey, Nita [D]
    Aye FL-16 Mahoney, Tim [D]
    Aye GA-8 Marshall, James [D]
    Aye UT-2 Matheson, Jim [D]
    Aye NY-4 McCarthy, Carolyn [D]
    Aye NC-7 McIntyre, Mike [D]
    Aye CA-11 McNerney, Jerry [D]
    Aye NY-6 Meeks, Gregory [D]
    Aye LA-3 Melancon, Charles [D]
    Aye AZ-5 Mitchell, Harry [D]
    Aye KS-3 Moore, Dennis [D]
    Aye PA-8 Murphy, Patrick [D]
    Aye PA-12 Murtha, John [D]
    Aye TX-27 Ortiz, Solomon [D]
    Aye CA-8 Pelosi, Nancy [D]
    Aye CO-7 Perlmutter, Ed [D]
    Aye MN-7 Peterson, Collin [D]
    Aye ND-0 Pomeroy, Earl [D]
    Aye WV-3 Rahall, Nick [D]
    Aye TX-16 Reyes, Silvestre [D]
    Aye CA-37 Richardson, Laura [D]
    Aye TX-23 Rodriguez, Ciro [D]
    Aye AR-4 Ross, Mike [D]
    Aye MD-2 Ruppersberger, C.A. [D]
    No Vote IL-1 Rush, Bobby [D]
    Aye CO-3 Salazar, John [D]
    Aye CA-29 Schiff, Adam [D]
    Aye GA-13 Scott, David [D]
    Aye PA-7 Sestak, Joe [D]
    Aye CA-27 Sherman, Brad [D]
    Aye NC-11 Shuler, Heath [D]
    Aye NJ-13 Sires, Albio [D]
    Aye MO-4 Skelton, Ike [D]
    Aye WA-9 Smith, Adam [D]
    Aye AR-2 Snyder, Victor [D]
    Aye OH-18 Space, Zackary [D]
    Aye SC-5 Spratt, John [D]
    No Vote CA-13 Stark, Fortney [D]
    Aye MI-1 Stupak, Bart [D]
    Aye TN-8 Tanner, John [D]
    Aye CA-10 Tauscher, Ellen [D]
    Aye MS-4 Taylor, Gene [D]
    Aye MS-2 Thompson, Bennie [D]
    Aye CO-2 Udall, Mark [D]
    No Vote IN-1 Visclosky, Peter [D]
    Aye OH-6 Wilson, Charles [D]
    Aye KY-3 Yarmuth, John [D]

    FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    PS: What is POSSE COMITATUS? What is COINTELPRO? What caused WTC-7 to collapse on 9/11?

    FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Moyers your black interviews are most sincere and your libertarian whities have the most integrity.

    What's missing is the INDIGENOUS voice.

    Why do you think that is?

    Because they are a members of "SOVEREIGN NATION" within US borders? Give me fucklen break!

    For the most part all of your guests are IGNORANT of the fact that Buckminster Fuller and Kirtzweil have already resolved the scarcity dilemma. Are you as well? You know what BINARY ECONOMICS is, RIGHT?

    SNAP QUIZ: Why is it called Con Edison, instead of Con Tesla?

    ANSWER: The same reason the Sicilian Scalia got strait A's in school and MAFIA born Giuliani got to run for POTUS.

    THEY CHEATED!!!

    RIDDLE ME THIS: Why did all of the following DEMS vote to overrule the 4th Amendment today, despite their oath of office to PROTECT the US CONSTITUTION?

    FISA TURNCOATS - BLUE DOGS or INVERTEBRATES

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2008-437&sort=party

    Aye NY-5 Ackerman, Gary [D]
    Aye PA-4 Altmire, Jason [D]
    Aye NY-24 Arcuri, Michael [D]
    Aye CA-43 Baca, Joe [D]
    Aye WA-3 Baird, Brian [D]
    Nay WI-2 Baldwin, Tammy [D]
    Aye GA-12 Barrow, John [D]
    Aye IL-8 Bean, Melissa [D]
    Aye NV-1 Berkley, Shelley [D]
    Aye CA-28 Berman, Howard [D]
    Aye AR-1 Berry, Robert [D]
    Aye GA-2 Bishop, Sanford [D]
    Aye NY-1 Bishop, Timothy [D]
    Aye OK-2 Boren, Dan [D]
    Aye IA-3 Boswell, Leonard [D]
    Aye VA-9 Boucher, Frederick [D]
    Aye FL-2 Boyd, F. [D]
    Aye KS-2 Boyda, Nancy [D]
    Aye FL-3 Brown, Corrine [D]
    Aye NC-1 Butterfield, George [D]
    Aye CA-18 Cardoza, Dennis [D]
    Aye PA-10 Carney, Christopher [D]
    Aye FL-11 Castor, Kathy [D]
    Aye LA-6 Cazayoux, Donald [D]
    Aye KY-6 Chandler, Ben [D]
    Aye MS-1 Childers, Travis [D]
    Aye MO-5 Cleaver, Emanuel [D]
    Aye SC-6 Clyburn, James [D]
    Aye TN-5 Cooper, Jim [D]
    Aye CA-20 Costa, Jim [D]
    Aye AL-5 Cramer, Robert [D]
    Aye NY-7 Crowley, Joseph [D]
    Aye TX-28 Cuellar, Henry [D]
    Aye AL-7 Davis, Artur [D]
    Aye TN-4 Davis, Lincoln [D]
    Aye WA-6 Dicks, Norman [D]
    Aye IN-2 Donnelly, Joe [D]
    Aye TX-17 Edwards, Thomas [D]
    Aye IN-8 Ellsworth, Brad [D]
    Aye IL-5 Emanuel, Rahm [D]
    Aye NY-17 Engel, Eliot [D]
    Aye NC-2 Etheridge, Bob [D]
    Aye AZ-8 Giffords, Gabrielle [D]
    Aye NY-20 Gillibrand, Kirsten [D]
    Aye TN-6 Gordon, Barton [D]
    Aye TX-9 Green, Al [D]
    Aye TX-29 Green, Raymond [D]
    Aye IL-4 Gutierrez, Luis [D]
    Aye CA-36 Harman, Jane [D]
    Aye FL-23 Hastings, Alcee [D]
    Aye SD-0 Herseth Sandlin, Stephanie [D]
    Aye NY-27 Higgins, Brian [D]
    Aye TX-15 Hinojosa, Rubén [D]
    Aye PA-17 Holden, Tim [D]
    Aye MD-5 Hoyer, Steny [D]
    Aye PA-11 Kanjorski, Paul [D]
    Aye MI-5 Kildee, Dale [D]
    Aye WI-3 Kind, Ronald [D]
    Aye FL-22 Klein, Ron [D]
    Aye TX-22 Lampson, Nicholas [D]
    Aye RI-2 Langevin, James [D]
    Aye IL-3 Lipinski, Daniel [D]
    Aye NY-18 Lowey, Nita [D]
    Aye FL-16 Mahoney, Tim [D]
    Aye GA-8 Marshall, James [D]
    Aye UT-2 Matheson, Jim [D]
    Aye NY-4 McCarthy, Carolyn [D]
    Aye NC-7 McIntyre, Mike [D]
    Aye CA-11 McNerney, Jerry [D]
    Aye NY-6 Meeks, Gregory [D]
    Aye LA-3 Melancon, Charles [D]
    Aye AZ-5 Mitchell, Harry [D]
    Aye KS-3 Moore, Dennis [D]
    Aye PA-8 Murphy, Patrick [D]
    Aye PA-12 Murtha, John [D]
    Aye TX-27 Ortiz, Solomon [D]
    Aye CA-8 Pelosi, Nancy [D]
    Aye CO-7 Perlmutter, Ed [D]
    Aye MN-7 Peterson, Collin [D]
    Aye ND-0 Pomeroy, Earl [D]
    Aye WV-3 Rahall, Nick [D]
    Aye TX-16 Reyes, Silvestre [D]
    Aye CA-37 Richardson, Laura [D]
    Aye TX-23 Rodriguez, Ciro [D]
    Aye AR-4 Ross, Mike [D]
    Aye MD-2 Ruppersberger, C.A. [D]
    No Vote IL-1 Rush, Bobby [D]
    Aye CO-3 Salazar, John [D]
    Aye CA-29 Schiff, Adam [D]
    Aye GA-13 Scott, David [D]
    Aye PA-7 Sestak, Joe [D]
    Aye CA-27 Sherman, Brad [D]
    Aye NC-11 Shuler, Heath [D]
    Aye NJ-13 Sires, Albio [D]
    Aye MO-4 Skelton, Ike [D]
    Aye WA-9 Smith, Adam [D]
    Aye AR-2 Snyder, Victor [D]
    Aye OH-18 Space, Zackary [D]
    Aye SC-5 Spratt, John [D]
    No Vote CA-13 Stark, Fortney [D]
    Aye MI-1 Stupak, Bart [D]
    Aye TN-8 Tanner, John [D]
    Aye CA-10 Tauscher, Ellen [D]
    Aye MS-4 Taylor, Gene [D]
    Aye MS-2 Thompson, Bennie [D]
    Aye CO-2 Udall, Mark [D]
    No Vote IN-1 Visclosky, Peter [D]
    Aye OH-6 Wilson, Charles [D]
    Aye KY-3 Yarmuth, John [D]

    FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    PS: What is POSSE COMITATUS? What is COINTELPRO? What caused WTC-7 to collapse on 9/11?

    FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I grew up in Memphis during the 30's. I was very aware of the treatment of Blacks and have felt "in tune" with happenings in race relations, including some sit-in activity, beginning in 50s. What was not noted on the program tonight was the fact that Obama's success , becoming President, will force Black folks to drop the alibi that they fail, when that happens, because of their color. Maybe they can drop their anti-white bias and imaginary defenses.

    First off... i do feel that prison is a present-day form of slavery; however, most of the time it is the person's fault for fallin gfor the trap. I believe that the government has set lower class people up for failure by segregating communities. Let's think about this... housing development. AKA "the projects," was supposedly set up for low income families; however, have you ever wondered if the government set that up to keep lower class blacks and latinos separate from the middle and upper class whites? So now, you have all these blacks and latino, living in the projects.. are they getting the same education as the whites? No. Are they getting the same medical care as the whites? No. Now i'm not saying that this gives blacks an excuse to do illegal things but this does lead to those illegal actions. Let's take a young black father living the projects for example, he has to feed he has to get special care for his new born son but the care that the son needs is not offered in his community and the young father does not have means for the better care.. what are his options? He's not a doctor yet. He's not making six figures.. because if he was, he wouldnt be living in the projects. Thanks to mother nature, the production or selling of marijuana offers itself as an option to save his childs life. When we see blacks in prison, AKA modern day slavery, let's not judge. Let's not look at them as animalistic. We do not know what got them there. Let's however look at how we can the influx of blacks into the prisons. Let's set new goals. Let's offer success options aside from basketball or a rap career. Let's encourage our young men and women to be doctors and lawyers. Let's convince them and teach them that the result of a high level of education is worth the 4-6 years of not making much money. Let's teach them how to make due with what they have. Now, on a lighter note.. I am a young black Latino woman that just receive a degree from St John's University in NYC. I went to school and work with successful blacks and latinos. We do exist. We are high in number. Not ALL of us are strippers, pregnant teenagers, single moms on welfare or selling drugs. Let us successful blacks and latinos help pull up the rest of our people. Let's show them that there is a good life that America has to offer. They don't have to fall for the trap. They don't have to live in the projects. You can live on the same block as the whites and asians. Those are my thoughts.

    George W. Willis, great grandfather of my father was a Southern abolitionist who came from a family of slave holders. He emancipated the slaves his wife inherited and divided some of her property among them. He left the Episcopal Church and became a Baptist because in his time Baptist stood for justice.

    Even before the Civil War, George Willis knew that that restitution was in order. It still is. I appreciated that context into which Professors Orlando Patterson and Glenn C. Loury placed notable problems. An excellent program. The interview with Professor Blackman was outstanding.

    Basically, Mr. Loury and Mr. Patterson were advocating the same thing, which was to expand affirmative action programs beyond race and base them on class.

    I ask this question: How does it benefit society as a whole to exclude people making 1500 on their SAT from entering Ivy League Schools under a color blind admissions policy, while replacing them with people making 900 on their SAT and being admitted because they faced social disadvantages in their youth? Why is it beneficial to pull down the best, the brightest, and the most cultured?

    Bill Moyers set up this interview as though Mr. Loury and Mr. Patterson were coming from different perspectives, when in fact they came from the same socialist perspective.

    I think it would have been more informative to have had Walter Williams, an economist from George Mason University. Dr. Williams has pointed out that there was a time in the early 20th century, when, despite Jim Crow laws, black families were successful because they valued marriage. There was a solid black middle class.

    In fact, in a collection of Dr. Martin Luther King's writings, published by the Stanford University Press, Dr. King recites an incident during the Depression when he observed men standing in bread lines and asking his father what they were doing. This reveals that Martin Luther King came from a solid middle class black family that didn't experience the poverty of the Depression that many white families experienced. One contributor to the strength of the Black community was the church which anchored tehir communities. Dr. King, in his writings, testifies to the influence of the Black church.

    Yet, Dr. King, in rejecting the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, including the inerrancy of scripture, the virgin birth of Christ, the inherent divinity of Christ, and the literal resurrection of Christ, while embracing the liberalism of higher critics like Paul Tillich, began the process of undermining the moral authority of the Bible that served as an anchor for the Black family. Similarly, white families deteriorated under this same liberal teaching, and with the decline in the white family, poverty among white, fatherless children increased.

    Walter Williams has pointed out that the single most effective way for any family to escape poverty is to produce children within marriage. We didn't hear that tonight.

    I really like all of the programs on Bill Moyers Journal. I think they are the best shows on television. I think that one reason why there are so many young (and not so young), black males in prison lies in what Douglas Blackmon said on the program: it was another way to reinstitute slavery (in America--especially in the South) by another name! I really liked Orlando Patterson and Glenn Doury also, especially Glenn Doury. All of Bill Moyer's guests are so articulate and so enthusiastic about the subject!

    Thanks so much for tonight's program. While Blackmon's story may not be new to historians, much of it is new to me (though unfortunately, not surprising). Perhaps Blackmon's journalistic perspective and more public career will help to popularize this dark history.

    I also want to add that Blackmon's interview certainly helped to frame the discussion between Profs. Loury and Patterson. While my heart is with Patterson, my head is with Loury. I want to believe in our collective ability to transcend race, yet the lesson of the history of race in America is largely one of the past repeating itself.

    Here's to hoping that ecumenism and multiculturalism might hold hands.

    That was one of the most intellectually stimulating and thought provoking telecast I have viewed in many years. Both men have merits with their opinions and the thoughts presented. As an informed American I am appreciative of both perspectives and will relish digesting the information presented. I'm sure my stance will include substantial platforms from both men. Kudos .

    Thank you Bill Moyer for your sincerity in report real news regardless of the pain in it subject. My comment is in regards to the slavery after the emancipation.

    In my opinion the injustice is still happening through the current day use of the prison and judicial system which is comprised of mostly African American. Someone should do an investigative report on Ohio alone.

    A form of universal affirmative action already exists in the form of military service. I would like to see this opportunity expanded to include service in non-profits, in corporations and in eduicational institutions.
    There are many details to be arranged as to incentives and oversight but this is a framework from which we can, once again, address poverty on a national scale.

    The debate between Mr. Loury and Mr. Patterson was one of the most cogent and thought-provoking that I have witnessed in a long time. The two professors are evenly matched. If a solution to the problem is reached in the future, it will fall within the guidlines of the suggestions of these two well-meaning and thoughtful men.

    If the young people of this generation continue to interact among themselves with mutual respect while maintaining their idealism and sense of justice, and if our society is wise enough to implement the ideas of these two professors--being mindful of the cautions of Mr. Loury, we shall have the kind of America that will live up to our highest expectations, and we shall truly become one nation --"E pluribus unum."

    It is pathetic when an educated man like Mr. Loury can continue to espouse this diatribe of disenfranchisement. Black youths with multiple children and a propensity for crime is all the fault of slavery? How many of those engaged in the activity even have enough historical context to make that connection? How convenient that all the ails of the black community are the fault of white men who have been dead for hundred years. His rhetoric is what perpetuates the cultural status quo. HE is the problem in the black community, not "the man."
    At what point do white people quit apologizing and black people take responsibility for their own lives. By blaming, they are defacto giving up their self determination.

    It is pathetic when an educated man like Mr. Loury can continue to espouse this diatribe of disenfranchisement. Black youths with multiple children and a propensity for crime is all the fault of slavery? How many of those engaged in the activity even have enough historical context to make that connection? How convenient that all the ails of the black community are the fault of white men who have been dead for hundred years. His rhetoric is what perpetuates the cultural status quo. HE is the problem in the black community, not "the man."
    At what point do white people quit apologizing and black people take responsibility for their own lives. By blaming, they are defacto giving up their self determination.

    I don't know if I can specifically address the questions asked above -- I just wanted to tell you how *superb* tonight's show was, from first to last!

    To me, the thrust of the entire show was the introduction of a breakthrough in how we are beginning to think and speak differently about race in America -- from the DeWolf descendant's courageously honest look at her family history, to the WSJ author's book on the heretofore hidden 'slavery under another name,' to the conversation with professors Patterson and Loury.

    The professors made such excellent comments that I found myself exclaiming 'Yes! Well said!' at my TV screen. To sum up my reactions, I agreed with Loury's statment that Obama is exemplifying a movement away from the polarization (in our thought and dialogue) to 'transcend' the past -- not by ignoring the past, but by naming it and asking 'what next?' *This* is what I see as the most hopeful message in tonight's program.

    I was also excited to hear both professors (in their different ways) point to *class* (or poverty) as the necessary political leverage-point for social programs -- Patterson, I believe, used the phrase 'the racialization of poverty' -- ie, the polarizing political position that constructs poverty programs as though they were intended only for blacks (who must, in that thinking be 'kept down'). In Patterson's sense, I agee entirely that reframing social services around class/poverty will be a move away from that 'racialization'.

    Thank you for such a wonderful thought-provoking show!

    Since there's no place for comments on the other two segments tonight I'll stick them here.

    Not to denigrate his effort, but if Blackmon were a trained historian he would know this ground has been covered many times over and he might have been more inclined to not leave out the other side of the coin, the treatment of the south by the Reconstructionists. Or to note that the treatment of white, particularly immigrant, workers in the north and west, white as well, was scarcely better. Or even of poor whites in the south. However there's no doubt that blacks are still discriminated against throughout the rural south.

    It should be mentioned in passing with reference to POV that the most pious ppl in RI during the slave trade era were opposed to slavery and piety then was not hypocritical.

    It has long been my feeling that black communities in the north took a large step backwards after WWII with the influx of blacks from the south. I agree with the idea that considering the problem only as a matter of economic analysis and denying psychology will not get you very far. But the idea that slavery can be blamed for the present condition of the black family needs to be submitted to more rigorous treatment. Aside from complaining about victimization, the problem with black youth today might be called the basketball syndrome, the direct result of fawning over black culture by whites, which has given them the feeling that they do not need to learn or work.

    I think, btw, that if this program and the Democratic Party's ads harp on these issues, it will have a negative, not a positive effect on the campaign.

    These programs are essential. I mean look at the data, Americans are upset that unemployment is now at 5.5% or so. For the African American community this figure is 9%. No one is even aware of this and the media doesn't discuss it. The black community is indeed in need of programs that help to educate youth, and provide access and opportunity to those who remain at the bottom of the socio- political economic ladder. By working to lift those at the bottom, we lift everyone. However, there are very few people who even wish to discuss let alone mitigate these disparities.

    It seems the Glenn wants to hold on to the divide between black and white americans somewhat. many government programs now are totally benefiting many in the black community, but at the same time keeping them at a level where one is better off not getting a higher paying job or better education when you can get health insurance, housing and food stamps by doing buy having a child and not getting married. i know because i was alot better off financially when my child was young, and i was on welfare and qualified for every kind of low income program. now that i have a job that makes $15.00 an hour, I am in the worst position in my life, i can not afford much food, rent, etc... and my friends who dont work, or work under the table have their rent paid in new low income homes, $400.00 of food stamps a month, and health insurance. they are the ones with full refridgerators, new cars, new clothes, and trips to jamaica. i would be better off if i had another child and not get married. that is so backwards.

    thank you so very much for the discussion on the black family in America. I am saddened by the state of the the Black family in America. I believe that black fathers must take their place as fathers, providers and supporters. What good is it to challen millions of dollars in a community, when young children do not have good fathers, especially boys.

    Why are so many of our young men, incarcerated. It is a generational problem of mass proportion.

    thanks.

    I hope that they are. I am not certain that they help as much as they once did. This ought to be an intriguing discussion.

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