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« Back to Islam- Can common ground be found main page    Transcript for: Islam- Can common ground be foundBEN WATTENBERG: Hello. I’m Ben Wattenberg. What do ordinary people in the Muslim world think about America? Can an understanding between Islamic and western cultures ever come about. Well in 2006 and Islamic scholar led a team of young Americans on a most remarkable tour of 9 Muslim nations seeking dialogue. To find out what they learned, we are joined by Dr. Akbar Ahmed head of Islamic studies at American University and author of Journey Into Islam, The Crisis of Globalization. The topic before the house – Islam can common ground be found? This week on Think Tank. BEN WATTENBERG: Doctor-- Akbar Ahmed, welcome once again to-- Think Tank. Come back again after this. I wondered if you could begin by giving us a word about your background. Where you were born, where you went to school, and then we’ll just plunge right in. A. AHMED: Ben, great to be back. I was born in India, in 1943. In 1947 Pakistan was created, and like millions of Muslims, my parents migrated to Pakistan. And I grew up in Pakistan in a-- Catholic school, up in the north of Pakistan. A very famous Catholic school. One of my class fellows became President of Pakistan. And one of them is a Pakistan ambassador in Washington. I went on to be educated in England. I got a degree from first Birmingham, then Cambridge University. I got a Ph.D. from London University. Joined the civil service of Pakistan. That’s the-- administrative service of Pakistan. And joined the district administration. So I’ve been over a long career -- head of various divisions at Balochistan. I’ve been head of South Waziristan Agency, where Osama Bin Laden is supposed to be hiding. And I wrote about all this at Princeton. And this is where the American connection comes in. I was invited-- to the Institute for Advanced Studies. So, I had Bernard Lewis on my right, and Clifford Gates on my left, one of the great anthropologists, which was really a great thrill for me. A relatively young man to be-- surrounded by these two great-- figures. BEN WATTENBERG: When-- when were you born? A. AHMED: 1943. And-- this, of course, meant that-- I had now my connection with the United States. I still went back to Pakistan. Back to the civil service. And in-- the late ’90s I was at Cambridge, Cambridge University. I was doing lots of media work, writing my books, also teaching on campus. I was appointed as Pakistan High Commissioner, because I still remained as part of the civil service structure. BEN WATTENBERG: And-- and now you are teaching at American University? A. AHMED: Now I am Chair of Islamic Studies at American University, in Washington, D.C. And I began my job there in August, 2001. BEN WATTENBERG: Just before-- A. AHMED: Just before 9/11. Literally, a few days-- BEN WATTENBERG: --9/11. A. AHMED: --a few days before 9/11. BEN WATTENBERG: So, it’s been quite a ride. A. AHMED: It’s been nonstop since, literally, 9/11. It’s been every 24 hours, I’m either talking on campus-- media, or television, and the White House, or Pentagon, or some-- BEN WATTENBERG: Now, what-- what courses-- do you teach? A. AHMED: I’m teaching a very popular course on campus called Dialogue or Clash of Civilizations? This is an honors program, of course, and very popular. Always over-subscribed. I also teach at The World of Islam. I teach-- Globalization in Islam. Islam in International Relations. So, I combine various interests, and-- teach them on campus. And we have a terrific-- reaction. We’ve got-- great kids. Very, very keen to learn, and very keen to be involved in trying to change the world for the better. BEN WATTENBERG: W-- what is your-- your-- the short course on the-- on the Clash of Civilization? We’ve had-- Sam Huntington on this program, and many others. It’s a-- it’s a topic that fascinates me-- and-- and most other people. Where do you see it now, and where is it going? A. AHMED: The concept is really taken from Huntington’s famous essay then later book. And originally from Bernard Lewis-- from Princeton-- that there is an inherent clash, specifically between the west and Islamic cultures. And that this an ongoing clash, and will remain an ongoing clash, for various reasons. So, it is more-- BEN WATTENBERG: It goes back to the creation-- A. AHMED: And goes back-- back-- back as-- goes back to-- back to centuries. Now I, of course, lay out all these theories in front of my class, because I don’t try to force any ideas down on that-- on them. I also then lay out alternative ideas about the world today. For example, Sir Jonathan Sacks, the Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom, a great friend of mine, for example, he’s written this book, The Dignity of Difference: How to Heal a Fractured World, in which he’s arguing the opposite. He’s saying, in fact, we need to have more understanding. BEN WATTENBERG: You recently took one of your classes on a trip to where? A. AHMED: It wasn’t my class. I was-- appointed by Brookings, Pew, and American University to lead-- BEN WATTENBERG: Brookings Institution here in Washington? A. AHMED: --Brookings Institution to lead a project called Islam in the Age of Globalization. So, I had a small team with me, a research assistant, some of my students came along with me, and some of my-- students joined me along the journey. So, we went to the Middle East, including Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Qatar. Then we crossed into south Asia. We went to India. We went to Pakistan. And we traveled about in these countries. Then we went further east to Malaysia, and Indonesia. And during this trip we met a whole variety of people. We met presidents. President Musharaf for example. BEN WATTENBERG: When was the trip? A. AHMED: This was last year. BEN WATTENBERG: Last year, 2006. A. AHMED: 2006, yes. We met presidents, princes, we met ordinary students, we met taxi drivers, we talked to-- housewives, a whole range of people. And after we conducted our questionnaires and had these interviews, we put together a consolited-- consolidated picture of what was happening in the Muslim world. So, for the first time, in this book, Journey into Islam, you’re going to actually hear ordinary Muslim voices, the whole range of Muslim voices. Men, women, old, young, and so on. So we a-- we were able to say who is your number one role model? Who’s your role model from the past? All these questions which we really don’t know much about. So, we have assumptions about the Muslim world. We don’t really know very much. So, this is really as close as you can get-- BEN WATTENBERG: All right. So-- so what is your bottom line? What did you-- what do you believe now that you weren’t sure of before? A. AHMED: Many things. I’m much, much surer about the diversity in the Muslim world. That there are, we discovered, three quite distinct groups, or categories on models on Muslim leadership and thought. Three quite distinct. The first is mystic universalist. Like the Sufis, who would love someone like Rumi. The second is orthodox literalist, who believe Islam is under attack. They want boundaries around Islam. They’re wearing tradi-- tradi-- they wear traditional clothes. They would not even have anything to do with the west, and so on. And there’s a whole range of opinion within this, so they’re not all advocating violence. But they’re very much traditionalist. And thirdly, there are the modernists. Those who believe synthesis is not only possible, it is desirable. So, you have these three, and it is the tension between these three models, that is being played out in the Muslim world. BEN WATTENBERG: So, it-- it’s the mystics, the traditionalists, and the modernizers. A. AHMED: Modernize, yes. Traditionalists, or literalists, who interpret the Koran in a very literal way. Who would, for example, say, 'This is what the Koran said. This is how it must be today. And if you don’t do this, you’re not a good Muslim.' BEN WATTENBERG: And-- and in your judgment, which of these groups is in the ascendancy? A. AHMED: That is the best question that you have asked me, Ben, because that’s the most relevant one. BEN WATTENBERG: Thank you. A. AHMED: The ascendancy, clearly now, goes to the literalist. And it goes, Ben, partly thanks to what you are up to in Washington. Because half a century ago, it was the modernizers who were dominant, and who were on the ascendant. Go back to the history of these areas, half a century ago. All the nationalist movements were headed by the modernizers. Pakistan was made by-- BEN WATTENBERG: The modernizers, and often socialists. A. AHMED: Socialists, but-- BEN WATTENBERG: I mean, sort of-- British, the Fabian socialists. (OVERTALK) A. AHMED: Yes, yes. But not-- I-- I don’t think we ever had except for maybe a city in Iraq, and one or two other countries. In the Muslim world, by and large, there was a tendency for the modernists to be up there in front. The classic example I always is that of Mr. Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, who believed in women’s rights, human rights, minority rights, a man of the law. He was a lawyer. Never went to jail in spite of fighting for independence for Pakistan. Now, that vision, that dream for Pakistan, as a modern, Muslim nation, has been shattered. Because what you’re seeing in Pakistan today is almost anarchy. Where this writ of the state is being challenged. Where Buddhist statues in Pakistan are being blown up. Where women are being forced out of school, and into-- the veil, in parts of Pakistan. Not the tribal areas, in settled districts of Pakistan. And you had, in Islamabad, the incident a couple of months ago, of a mosque actually challenging the writ of the state. All this is happening in modern Pakistan. So, you can imagine the state of the Muslim world, where these three models are in play, and this third model is on the ascendant. The literalist model, which believes Islam is under attack. Islam is very much under attack by the United States in a world coalition led by the United States. And we must defend it at all costs. Now, what this does is the ordinary Muslim, it gives choices. The vast majority of the Muslims, I believe, would want to go with either the modernists or the mystics. The vast majority. But under threat, this is human nature, Ben, when you’re under threat, your home is blown up, or your wife or kids-- kids are under attack, where you feel they’re vulnerable, who do you go for? You’re not gonna go for the mystic, who’s gonna talk about love and compassion. Or the modernizer, who’s gonna say, 'I’ll go and write a letter to The Times, and-- protest, or go to my lawyer.' You’re gonna go to the man who says, 'An eye for an eye. I want revenge.' And, unfortunately, that is the trend. You see it throughout the Muslim world. In Somalia, in the Hamas, in Hezballah, everywhere you see the pattern emerging. BEN WATTENBERG: And-- and that would be the-- wing of Islam that was-- responsible for 9/11, and everything that’s happened before and after, I mean, in one way or another? A. AHMED: Exactly. And, again, I want to underline that not everyone in this model would want violence. We must be clear about this. But you’re right, because that wing would come from this thinking. Islam under attack, so you fight back. BEN WATTENBERG: You know, it’s very interesting. The-- the Pew Charitable Trust do some very interesting public opinion polls. And they polled Muslims in America. And (CLEARS THROAT) they found that 25 percent of them-- favored violence. Not necessarily participated in it, but apologized for it, applauded it. And most every newspaper reported and said, 'Well, that’s very nice. Only 25-- .' Well, you know, it take two percent, or one percent to destroy a c-- not destroy a country, but terrorize a country. A. AHMED: It confirms exactly what we found. So, there is a problem. The problem is not just that the west is seen to be attacking Islam. It’s more complicated. I believe, and I’ve said this in my book, that it is also a failure of Muslim leadership. Muslims are going through a phase of history, where Muslim leadership has failed their own peoples. Islam emphasizes knowledge, respect for knowledge, schools, education. It emphasizes compassion. It emphasizes justice. And ordinary Muslims are not getting this. So, whether you’re in Karachi, or in Cairo, in these huge cities, ordinary Muslims are leading lives with little hope. So, they’re seeing the vast gap between the rich and the poor. They’re seeing their lives not leading anywhere. They’re seeing a great sense of frustration. Now, in this-- in this life comes a man who says, 'I’ve got the answers. I’ve got surety.' BEN WATTENBERG: This is-- Osama? A. AHMED: Or anyone like that, who comes in with-- with clear ideas about what to do to change their way of life. And when you’re emotionally in that situation, you have nothing to lose, you go along. And that is the challenge, Ben, that’s what I believe. That is the challenge Muslim leadership fails. They have to wake up. They have to come to grips with the situation, because if they don’t, Ben, I want to repeat these figures for you again and again. Which is, the Muslim world is 1.4 billion. By the middle of the century, one out of four people on this planet will be Muslim, according to the demographers. Fifty-seven nations, one nuclear, for the time being. And the trend is maybe two, three, four, maybe half a dozen in the next couple of years. So, it is something we cannot ignore, it is-- that is, dealing with the Muslim world. We need to engage. We need to understand, and we need to bring down the temperature, so that the three models that I’ve described to you are then in play, and the literalist model, which may encourage violence, is marginalized, diminished, and, in a sense, brought down. And you have the strength of the mystics, the strength of the modernizers, brought to the fore. This is crucial for Islam, and the world. BEN WATTENBERG: And how about-- Akbar-- let me ask you two things. The United States and originally a-- a-- a club of-- of other nations-- principally-- the English-- went into Iraq for many reasons, one of which was to help foster the modernist-- democratic ideal. Was that a worthwhile-- activity? A. AHMED: Ben, I don’t know how you could be even asking me this question (LAUGHS) 2007. Do you know how many people have died in Iraq? You would say 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 Americans and thousands of Americans wounded. But do you know how many Iraqis have died? According to the latest house to house survey-- household survey, there’s the British press-- British press-- just a couple of days ago, 1.2 million people. Now, 1.2 million people dying. With people being shot and killed every day, 50, 100. Fifty, 100 to me, Ben, is a catastrophe. It’s plain and simple. So, the intentions were noble, if they were to create democracy, human rights, and so on. And I applauded that. Because you need to have that in the Muslim world. But the results have been disastrous. Now, if the results-- BEN WATTENBERG: Well, but ho-- ho-- ho-- A. AHMED: --are disastrous-- BEN WATTENBERG: --hold on. Th-- the estimates I have seen is that Saddam Hussein killed half a million of his own people, tortured them, buried them alive-- A. AHMED: So, are you comparing-- BEN WATTENBERG: --did-- didn’t that have-- A. AHMED: --the country-- BEN WATTENBERG: --didn’t that have to stop? A. AHMED: Ben, are you comparing the country of Jefferson, and Lincoln, and Washington to Saddam Hussein? BEN WATTENBERG: No, but I’m saying that the country of Lincoln and Washington and of-- Churchill and the Magna Carta, attempted to stop it. A. AHMED: But you ended up by killing more people than Saddam in the end. BEN WATTENBERG: Well, we didn’t end up killing it. There-- (OVERTALK) BEN WATTENBERG: --there’s a civil-- there’s a civil war going there. And-- and-- and as I understand it, for the moment it may be in its-- in its infancy. There is an elected-- parliament. There is an elected court. There is a somewhat free press. There is an elected President. A AHMED: I would-- look at it like this, Ben. I would say that there will be a backlash, and I am from that part of the world. I have been an administrator. I know how people think there. There will be a backlash when this all over against anything, unfortunately, and I say this unfortunately, because I believe in these things, perhaps more than a lot of Americans. I really believe in the ideals of human rights, and civil liberties, and democracy. Which is what makes America so attractive to me. There will be a backlash against these ideas. And this will feed into a Zenophobia, a ch-- chauvinism in the Muslim world, which will reinforce the literalist version of Islam. BEN WATTENBERG: Akbar, I don’t even have to ask the question. I’ll just say the word-- Israel. What’s going on? A. AHMED: I would very much like, Ben, because I am concerned about Israel. I have many Israeli friends. I wish them well. I’m concerned at the environment, at the neighborhood in which they live. Now, look at the neighborhood. They’re surrounded by hundreds of millions of hostile neighbors. And, again, look at the dem-- d-- demography of that part of the world. By the middle of the century, this neighborhood will double. So, if you have 300 million Arabs, you will have 600 million. And everyone is scrambling to get nuclear weapons. And with the kind of rhetoric you hear about ex-- ex-- exterminating Israel, wiping Israel off the face of the map, and so on, that hatred, combined with nuclear weapons, makes me very, very fearful. Whenever I talk to Israeli friends, I request them, bring down the temperature. Take initiatives. Send out cultural delegations. Send out scholars and rabbis of the interfaith people. And believe me, Ben, we have traveled in the Muslim world with these wonderful young Americans. There is nothing like face to face dialogue. BEN WATTENBERG: My understanding is most of the Muslim countries will not accept an Israeli visa. A. AHMED: You’re right. There are ways to go around it. I-- I’ll give you the example of my friend, Judea Pearl, the father of the late Danny Pearl, so tragically killed in Karachi. Now, when Judea Pearl and I started this Jewish/Muslim dialogue for understanding, there was a lot of opposition from the Muslim community to me even joining this this dialogue. And there was some very nasty-- e-mails and threats, and so on I got. But after some time, people began to join us. And, again, I would talk to these audiences, and they would say, 'Well, we saw this anti-Semitic argument, and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is being shown all over the Middle East.' And I’d say, 'But that’s a fiction. That was created by the Czar’s secret service police in the late 19th century to defend the Jewish community. I’d explain it to them. But that’s what they’re seeing. Now, similarly Ben, they’re also seeing a lot of this Islamophobic stuff on television here. And they equate this-- they say, 'Islam is under attack. The Jews are doing this over here. And therefore, somehow they’re involved.' And I would want, very much, you ask about Israel, I would want Israel to take-- because it has that capacity, it has the dynamism, it has the initiative, the imagination, to reach out, not only in military terms in this little hard line confrontation terms, but also in terms of diplomacy. In terms of culture. BEN WATTENBERG: G-- give me-- give me an example. Let’s say you were the Prime Minister of Israel. You had a majority and that followed you. What would you do tomorrow, or next month? A. AHMED: I would get hold of people like Judea Pearl, sitting in California. I would get hold of people like Rabbi Lustig, the head of the Washington Hebrew Congregation, or Rabbi Hilla Libbian (PH). These people h-- have already worked with Muslims in dialogue. Hilla Libbian, for example, is sitting in India, bringing dialogue between Hindus and Muslims. These are remarkable people. They can change perception. They can change hearts and minds. I would simply get them in delegations and I would send them out. When Muslims see rabbis-- BEN WATTENBERG: Rabbis? I mean, you-- you’re describing people who are already doing this, right? Judea Pearl is doing that already. A. AHMED: But not in the Muslim world. They are doing a lot of this here in the United States. BEN WATTENBERT: I see. A. AHMED: Judea, so far, we haven’t been-- we are plan-- we are planning to, but we haven’t been to the Muslim world. If-- you said if I was sitting in Israel, and Israel, I would want to send them initially to the first circle, as we’re told, the concentric circles. To Cairo, Jordan, Amman-- BEN WATTENBERG: Will they accept them? A. AHMED: I think they would. There’s-- there’s already coming-- BEN WATTENBERG: Now, i-- i-- it’s very interesting. Before I went to Israel the first time, I was working on the White House, and the first year of-- of neighbors is against-- vehemently against. The second tier of neighbors, which was-- Turkey-- Iran-- Ethiopia-- they were quite pro-Israel, either-- above ground, or-- or just underneath the surface. And you-- you find this often. The neighbors fight, and the neighbor of the neighbors is-- is with the other people. And it’s not-- A. AHMED: And-- and Ben, we have to remember one very crucial fact, which is not very well known in-- even in Israel. That in the Muslim world, the respect and the affection for Judaism is very, very deep. Remember that Muslims and Jews share the whole notion of the Abrahamic family, the descendants, the rituals, the customs, the Ten Commandments, these are all shared. BEN WATTENBERG: And, of course, Hebrew and Arabic are very close. A. AHMED: Very similar. So, this is what has to be emphasized. So far, the interaction is largely legalistic, and militaristic. And the result is hatred versus hatred. And more hatred. I would want to shift the paradigm completely. You have your military army, have your security arm. Also, show us the cultural diplomatic arm. And in this, send out the artists, the intellectuals, the films, the writers and contract. And bring down the temperature. Otherwise, you’re going to see Protocols of the Elders of Zion being shown throughout the Arab world. No one is countering this. BEN WATTENBERG: Y-- you know, I think it was Huntington in his book, The Clash of Civilizations, said that every nation with a Muslim neighbor, has a war going on. So, what are-- I mean, i-- is there something in the nation-- in the nature of Islam that says there’s gonna be perpetual war? A. AHMED: Not at all, Ben. And I think this-- statement of his, like many of his other statements, and I respect the core belief of this thesis. There’s a great deal of strength to it. You can simply reverse it. You can simply say, then, wherever Christianity exists with Islam, there have been-- bloody war. His exact phrase is, 'Islam has bloody frontiers.' You reverse this, and so does Christianity, because Islam is fighting-- and Chechen has Christians versus the Muslims, and the Bosnia has Christians versus the Muslims. And you can reduce this to absurdity. We know that the Jews lived with the Muslims for centuries in Spain. And when they were expelled from Spain, if you are right that there’s in Islam, why did the Jews, when asked, Where do you want to go?' say unanimously, 'We want to go to another Muslim country.' And they were all taken to Istanbul, and they settled under the Ottomans. Where they lived very happily, compared to what was happening to them in Europe. So, I don’t buy this at all for a moment. And this is precisely, Ben, the kind of thinking that we need to, in the west, begin to grapple with and change. Otherwise, we are stuck with this, sort of, the threat of Islam, and we challenging them, and we fighting for another thousand years. BEN WATTENBERG: The-- the statement is made that-- Christianity had a-- and every religion had a brutal moment-- Christianity had the Reformation-- the-- the-- the Hebrews had the-- the Jews had the Enlightenment that-- Islam has not had their reformation. And it’s gotta come, sooner or later. Or-- or does it? I mean, how do you see that? A. AHMED: Again, this is a very important theological problem you’ve raised. Because reformation by definition means reforming religion. The problem with Islam is that Muslims believe the Koran is divine. And, therefore, who’s going to reform the Koran? Who’s going to say, 'Leave this verse out. Include this-- verse. Amend it like this.' Therefore, I would use not the word reformation, but I would use a substitute word. I would use renaissance. I would say we need a renaissance in Islam. We need to d-- rediscover in Islam the central features that I talked about. Justice. Compassion. Respect for knowledge. Respect for others. Acceptance. This is Islam, and it must Muslims need to rediscover this. BEN WATTENBERG: Akbar-- what would you do-- if you were the American President, and you had a majority, and could do things. What would you do-- in terms of our Middle East policy? A. AHMED: Not only for the Middle East, but for the entire Muslim world, Ben, I would simply, and by the way, at the end of my book, I do have a set or recommendations-- policy recommendations, on the basis of my trip to the Muslim world, for the American leadership and for the Muslim leadership. For the Americans, I would simply say be true to your own values. Be true to the values that America stands for. Promote democracy, and human rights, and civil liberties. And promote them. Don’t compromise on this. There’s far too much compromise. For the Muslim world, I would say rediscover justice, compassion, respect for knowledge. BEN WATTENBERG Okay. Um, Dr. Akbar Ahmed, American University, thank you very much for joining us once again on Think Tank. You are welcome to come back once again. And thank you. Please remember to send us your comments via email. We think it makes our program better. For Think Tank, I’m Ben Wattenberg. Back to top  Think Tank is made possible by generous support from the Smith Richardson Foundation, the Bernard and Irene Schwartz Foundation, the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, the John M. Olin Foundation, the Donner Canadian Foundation, the Dodge Jones Foundation, and Pfizer, Inc. ©Copyright Think Tank. All rights reserved. 
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