The following Featured Post comes from Relationship Group 9, Thread 20.

1. Illegal Immigration
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 10:12 PM/EST
bbc

Kilimanjaro's post about class struggles got me thinking
about my feelings on illegal immigration. This is
one area where I do feel some resentment.

I will make some distinction between those who are
coming to the US as refugees. I feel we bear some
responsibility as human beings to help in these
situations, but when people immigrate illegally to
the US primarily because we have better economic
opportunities, I feel resentful. Maybe it is an
issue of integrity, maybe it's the increased
strain on already stretched social resources. But
maybe it's also class struggle...

Can any of you give me a new perspective on this?

2. Illegal immigration
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 3:48 PM/EST
geri

At the risk of going out on a limb I will share my position on this issue. I do not believe in "illegal immigration." I am an historian who wanted to be an anthropologist. As such I am aware of the migration of peoples on the planet from the begining of humanity--even prior to homo sapiens. Animals migrate. We are animals. Indigenous people on this continent had an idea that was common among tribes/clans for millenia. "The earth belongs to all of us." In the case of the Western Hemisphere, so-called illegal immigrants were "here" until forced into circumscribed areas. Mexicans, so called today, were people who migrated up and down the western part of the continent, followiing the seasons, as have nomads forever.

When greed wins over perceived loss we have the concept of "illegal immigrants/aliens." The nation-state is a relatively new idea in human history. Did you know that Italy and Germany only became "nations" in 1871. Now the European Common Market is the BEGINNING of awareness that human- made lines on the earth are not what nature put there. Remember, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature! I am respectful of "wet-backs" because I know the land my great grandfather bought in Texas was stolen from their ancestors. I am, also, respectful of all native people because I know how they lost their land, culture and livelihood. As a human (Afro-Eur-Asian) I regret what some of my ancestors have done to one another, up to today, and I keep that in awareness in my life.

A different perspective? Yes. Accurate history, Indeed. You asked. Thank you.

3. Migration
Sun, Oct 3, 1999 - 11:37 AM/EST
bbc

You do have a point, Geri. At the base of the
argument is the idea of private ownership vs. no
ownership. Physically living in a given area is
one thing, but we are talking about more than
land, there is also the system. We live in a
capitalistic system. People who move here
"illegally", do get the benefits of that system
without contributing to that system. That is what
I'm responding to. I don't know that it's an
issue of greed, as much as it is an issue of
responsibility for me. If you take the one world
position to an extreme, should we as a nation be
sharing our wealth with all other countries in the
world without compensation? Would this be world
communism (no private property)? It is certainly
something to think about.

4. to bbc
Sun, Oct 3, 1999 - 4:56 PM/EST
alicia

I live in Santa Barbara CA where there is a high
concentration of immigrants from Mexico.Many of
them I suppose are illegal. These are probably the
ones working for substandard wages as day laborers
and living in extremely crowded conditions. Rent
in SB is very high. These same people are probably
afraid to seek medical care when needed and are
forever anxious that they will be found out.I
wouldn't want to be in their place and hardly
think that they are benefiting from our system in
a way that matters much to us. Many immigrants
hold green cards which offers greater access to
the benefits. My boyfriend is a British green card
holder. He pays taxes yet has no voice in our
government. Ironically, he calls this "taxation
without representation".

A person can't even work at Macdonald's without a green card. As for
educating illegal aliens in our public schools.
Well, I believe an educated individual will
benefit our society much more than someone cast
along the fringes.
America is a glutton of resources from all corners
of the globe. If we are going to take than we
shouldn't be surprised if the people are going to
follow.

5. Illegal immigration
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 11:46 AM/EST
kilimanjaro

bbc,

I am curious why you feel resentfull towards illegal immigrants. Do you feel that they drive down wages, steal jobs. Do you feel that they overburden our social services. Do you dislike the fact that illegal immigrants don't learn english and live in segregated communities. Perhaps there are reasons not listed above.

6. Still trying to figure it out...
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 11:07 PM/EST
bbc

Well, I'm not altogether sure why I feel this way,
but it's not the language or separate culture. I
do think illegal immigrants put a strain on the
community and the nation in various ways. I know
in some places, they have set up shanty towns,
closing public parks. Schools feel the strain -
crowded classrooms, ESL programs - all of which
must be funded by those who are "legal".

They can't take legitimate jobs for fear of being
deported so what do they do? One choice is
picking crops - not especially good for their own
health or welfare in many cases, and certainly not
profitable. But I also worry that when legitimate
means aren't available, there are underground
options - crime, prostitution, drug trafficking.

Maybe I'm just a prude. The rules are there -
instead of breaking them - go through the correct
channels OR try to create opportunity in their own
country OR the countries could adjust immigration
quotas. I don't like the sneaking - I'm big on
responsibility.

7. Illegal Immigrants net drain or gain?
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 3:26 PM/EST
kilimanjaro

bbc

I can share with you my observations. The is no conclusive evidence to suggest that illegal immigrants are a net contributor or consumer of local and national resources. Although, groups pro and con illegal immigrants trot out different statistics to back their political views. For example illegals consume health care resources, but they comsume less then the general population for fear of deportation.

As for educational programs like ESL, that is a much more complex topic because you also need to include legal aliens that require the program. You also get into discussion on whether we should be an English only nation.

Illegal aliens contribute by taking low wage jobs that no one else wants, at least at the wages they are willing to work for. They pick crops, work in gardens and restaurants. If we took the illegal immigrants out of the equation then we would have to pay a lot more for fresh vegetables, restaurant food etc. I am not placing a value judgement on this outcome, simply stating a generally accepted view. I remeber that the last immigration reform act, I think 92, had a rider to exempt seasonal crop pickers in California and Washington. I also heard a radio report that fruit farmers in Washington and California are worried this year about unpicked fruits due to increased INS deportations of its labor force.

Illegal immigrants do commit crime, but my understanding is that they are mostly misdameanors. Again because there are here to work and send money home and do not want to get deported. I also understand that drugs is a problem that does not really effect the illegal immigrants (Only people with leisure time have the luxury for drugs).

8. Illegal immigrants net drain or gain cont
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 3:41 PM/EST
kilimanjaro

These are just some counterpoints to your concerns. But again, there is inconclusive evidence in monetary terms whether illegals are a net drain or a net gain. You are certainly entitled to an opinion based on another value system. For example you choose cleaner parks over low fruit/vegetable costs.

My personal feeling is similar to geri, but I do not advocate a completely open border. I do think that a country should have some symbolic control over its borders. However, since countries through out history have been unable to completely deter people who vote with their feet, I don't think the US government will be any successfull. In fact, living in San Diego I know that there are plenty of illegals getting here daily. I prefer a policy of see no evil, hear no evil. Basically, have an unenforced illegal immigration policy.

I do completely share one of your views. One way to curb illegal immigration is to improve economic conditions of the source communities. However, as their governments have been unable to so, are you as a tax payer willing to help with the bill.

9. Right on!
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 5:52 PM/EST
alicia

Kilamanjaro, please reconsider and write magazine
articles. You are very thoughtful and
thought-provoking.
Once again: I agree with you.

10. All good points, but....
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 10:39 AM/EST
bbc

This issue does create tension for me because it
pits several of my core values against each other.
Self sufficiency vs. compassion, integrity vs.
need for opportunity, the rights of a community or
nation vs. the rights of individuals. For me it
is not a simple matter of paying more at the
grocery for fruit.

Of all the good points that all of you have put
forth, the one point I would disagree on is
regarding drugs and crime. The drug problem, both
use and trafficking crosses all economic lines and
there is higher incentive for those on the bottom
to participate due to lack of opportunity and high
immediate reward or relief. In the case of
illegals (Mexicans or boat people...), it may not
be the first generation that is the problem - it
is the second generation who don't want to live
like their parents have and so find another way.
And crime follows drugs. In the end this cycle of
lack of opportunity, drugs and crime, can have a
great negative impact on communities. For those
who come legally, opportunity exists and the
temptations of easy money are less.

More comments are welcome - it is helping me
clarify my feelings and thoughts and offering me
new ideas.