Clip: How separating children from families became part of Trump's immigration policy

Alcindor : I also want to highlight some incredible reporting in "The Atlantic" by reporter Caitlin Dickerson who joins me now. She spent 18 months investigating the Trump administration’s family separation policy.

Caitlin, what’s the most important thing that people need to take away from your reporting?

Caitlin Dickerson, Staff Writer, The Atlantic : I think the most important take away from my reporting for me is in an administration like that of Donald Trump, you know, the ostensible agnostic moderates and their views and their actions are just as important as people who have really hawkish views.

You know, Steven Miller, President Trump’s chief immigration adviser, and another advisor, Gene Hamilton (ph), who worked for the Department of Homeland Security and later Justice Department, they pushed aggressively and really without -- you know, they were completely unabashedly for this policy to be put into place.

But, they also got buy-in from people who told me they didn’t really believe in separating families, who said they thought somebody else was going to push back and prevent this from happening, or said this idea sounded so outlandish, I didn’t think it would go anywhere.

And, you know, Stephen Miller and others who have these harsh views, they needed the buy-in from those moderates or they at least needed those moderates to stay quiet for this policy to be put into place.

Alcindor : And what you’re basically saying more than just Stephen Miller and Donald Trump to carry this out.

There’s also this idea that taking away children was the intent of the policy. It was not sort of a consequence. How did you prove that? What did your reporting show?

Dickerson : So, there is evidence before, during, and after zero that family separations where the goal for those pushing most harshly for it. The first piece of evidence comes from Tom Homan, the head of ICE under Trump whose idea it was to separate families and he told me that was his goal.

But it also comes out of documents I obtained through FOIA, records that obtained, records that showed especially when early separations were happening, they were referred to very boldly as such in government documents. And, you know, then only later that the conversation changed, the administration started to argue they were hoping to prosecute parents and not separate them.

But then the last piece of evidence comes after separation has taken place when documents show government officials work to keep those families apart even longer after the prosecutions were complete.

Alcindor : And you report they thought to obscure the sort of original intent of this. Talk about that reporting and sort of how you were able to get people to explain to you how they were trying to hide this at one point?

Dickerson : Sure. So, when the idea to separate families was first presented to Kierstjen Nielsen, she was DHS secretary under President Trump, she rejected it right away. She said my predecessor said no to this idea. I agree with him. We’re not doing it.

But instead, another version of family separations was presented to her. She was told that we just want to prosecute adults who cross the border, who should not be let off the hook simply because they are doing so with their children. She was also told this had been done before which was not true.

And she was assured by not only, again, the more hawkish people in the White House, but also by these career bureaucrats who served under both Democrats and Republicans. They assured her systems were in place to prevent prolong separations from happening and it wasn’t true.

Alcindor : Yeah. There is this lasting impact, trauma that you really detailed so deeply, especially as we know hundreds of families remain separated. What did you learn about the lasting trauma and also the real-time trauma?

Dickerson : The real-time trauma was documented for me or detailed for me by a government official who, a Salvadoran consular official who watched separations take place. She reaffirmed what families have been saying for years, that children and their parents were screaming and crying and asking for information about what was going on. They were given almost no information. If anything, they were told something very simple like we are under orders from Donald Trump to take your kids away. She says she was still haunted by the cries of separated children and those detention centers.

These families are still struggling today. Some have filed lawsuits for damages against the government. You know, many have said they are looking for an official apology which I have not received. But I think more than anything, what I hear from separated families, is they want an assurance this will never happen again. And, of course, we don’t have an assurance like that. There is no law preventing it.

And, in fact, many of the people who pushed for family separations during the Trump administration told me they still thought it was a good idea and they would potentially be interested in re-implementing it.

Alcindor : And it’s incredible reporting, Caitlin. In "The Atlantic", one of the longest pieces ever published, so congratulations on that. But also, you just detailed it so deeply. People should definitely take a look at the article. So thank you, Caitlin.