Full Episode: Washington Week full episode, Feb. 10, 2023

Yamiche Alcindor: The state of the union and a state of division.

Joe Biden, U.S. President: Let's finish the job, there is more to do.

Yamiche Alcindor: President Biden hits the road --

Joe Biden: A lot of Republicans, their dream is to cut social security and Medicare. If that is your dream, I am your nightmare.

Yamiche Alcindor: -- challenging Republicans in two key battleground states on the issue of entitlements --

Joe Biden: Let me give you -- anybody who doubts it, contact my office.

Yamiche Alcindor: -- following a state of the union that was unlike any other.

Plus, former Vice President Mike Pence is subpoenaed by the special counsel investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election, next.

Good evening and welcome to WASHINGTON WEEK. Tuesday saw one of the rowdiest state of the union speeches in recent memory. Republicans booed and heckled President Biden throughout the address, his first before a divided Congress with a GOP-controlled House. The divisions were crystal clear, the president touted his accomplishments and big bills passed by Congress last year, he also urged bipartisanship to, quote, finish the job. It is a phrase he used 12 times during his speech.

But Republicans, well, they shouted at him and called him, quote, liar, when he accused them of seeking to make cuts to entitlement programs.

Joe Biden: Some Republicans want Medicare and social security to sunset. I'm not saying it's a majority. Let me give -- anybody who doubts it, contact my office. I will give you a copy of the proposal.

As we all apparently agree, social security and Medicare is off the books now, right? They're not going to be cut? All right, we've got unanimity.

Yamiche Alcindor: Quite a moment there.

After his speech, Arkansas' new governor, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, also the former White House press secretary, she gave the Republican Party's response and pointedly criticized the president and Democrats.

Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders (R-AR): At 40, I'm the youngest governor in the country, and at 80, he is the oldest president in American history. I am the first woman to lead my state and he is the first man to surrender his presidency to a woke mob.

Yamiche Alcindor: Meanwhile, after his address, President Biden, he hit the road, taking his message to two key battleground states, Wisconsin and Florida. And while he hasn't officially announced he's running for re-election yet, President Biden offered a glimpse at what his 2024 message might sound like.

To discuss all of this, I am joined by Errin Haines, Editor-at-Large for The 19th. And here in studio, Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent for The New York Times, Leigh Ann Caldwell, co-Author of The Washington's Post Early 202 Newsletter and Anchor for Washington Post Live, and Nikole Killion, Congressional Correspondent for CBS News. So, thanks to all of you for being here.

Peter, I want to start with you. I know you have covered a number of state of the unions. What sticks out about this one when you think about what President Biden was saying and, of course, those moments we played where Republicans were heckling him, almost walking a bit into what felt like maybe him baiting them a bit?

Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: I think it's exactly what was happening. When the White House wrote this speech, the aides identified two places in the speech where they thought Republicans might heckle him. Guess what, this was exactly what happened, the exact two places in the speech.

So, not only was President Biden ready for it, he was hoping for it. This is exactly what they wanted. They wanted him to look like the adult in the room, whereas the quarrelsome children are seen there shouting and being rude and everything, and they got exactly what they wanted.

And I think for a president whose speeches are not always full of energy these days, he does have to sort of convince people that at age 80, he still got the vigor in him. It was a good moment because he got to engage a foe and play off of them.

Yamiche Alcindor: And then we also played, of course, Sarah Huckabee Sanders who criticized him, talked about him being part of the woke mob. You also former President Trump, who was a little mixed there. He said the speech was not as terrible as it could have been, in some ways, but he was also criticizing him, Peter.

Peter Baker: Yes. Look, they are trying to find where the traction is. Sarah Huckabee Sanders says it's all about woke culture issues. They didn't really talk about much else. But she said something else that I thought was really interesting. She said several times, it is time for a new generation of Republican leadership. Who was she talking to there? Maybe her old boss, right? Her old boss is 76. President Biden is 80. Neither of them is a new generation guy.

Yamiche Alcindor: Yes, that's such an interesting point.

Nikole, what's interesting also was Speaker McCarthy, he had warned Republicans to behave, and you saw him shushing sometimes there. What does that tell you about Kevin McCarthy's sort of hold and grip on his party but also the strategy for Republicans when you think about all the things that Congress has to get done?

Nikole Killion, Congressional Correspondent, CBS News: Well, my takeaway is welcome to my world. I mean, I think for those of us who covered Congress, and I'm sure Leigh Ann knows very well, too, I mean, this is kind of the dynamic that we will likely deal with over the next two years.

And I really don't think even if it was a strategic move on the part of the White House, I don't think that it is something that comes with any surprise after we witnessed the speaker battle, which was quite contentious, where you had one lawmaker lunging at another.

If you look at the week before the state of the union, there was a very highly charged debate on the House floor when Republicans tried to remove Ilhan Omar, a Democrat, from the House Foreign Affairs Committee, where you had people like AOC trying to tell off Republicans. So, it is a very -- a contentious Congress, a very divided Congress. And so, certainly, no surprises that it was as raucous as it was Tuesday night.

And so I think in terms of Kevin McCarthy having to shush members, I mean, we saw it took him 15 votes to get the speakership. So, I mean, it does take some wrangling to try to keep his numbers in line.

Yamiche Alcindor: And it's a question I want to ask you and Leigh Ann. I'll start with you, Nikole. The Medicare and social security cuts, President Biden said some Republicans want to do it. You saw video this week from Mike Lee, Ron DeSantis, Ron Johnson talking on video years back about wanting to cut social security and Medicare. What is the truth here?

Nikole Killion: Well I mean, this is the third rail of politics, right? I mean, in terms of this dynamic of cutting entitlement programs, like social security and Medicare. I mean, obviously, before President Biden made the state of the union speech, we saw Kevin McCarthy gave a prebuttal, where he did say that social security and Medicare will be off the table.

But at the same time, it is pretty nuanced because you have people like Rick Scott, for instance, who put out this big plan recently, in the last election cycle, where he suggested sunsetting Medicare and social security. So, that is kind of where this notion of potentially cutting it comes from in part. And, of course, many Republicans have since tried to distance themselves from that idea, including Senator Scott himself.

So, it is a lot of -- it's in the weeds, I think, for a lot of people at home, but as you saw, the president tried to leverage that opportunity to get everybody on record that we are not going to touch this as part of these debt limit negotiations.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Leigh Ann, what are your sources saying about this? I mean, that was quite a moment to see President Biden get Republicans and Democrats to stand up and say, we will not touch social security and Medicare?

Leigh Ann Caldwell, Co-Author, The Washington Post's Early 202: Yes. I mean, it really played into the president's hands. But I will say, I don't know if this is the end of the discussion on social security and Medicare. Maybe for the time being, Republicans have realized that this is very bad politically, it's going to be an issue in the 2024 presidential election as well. You have President Trump, who is also goading Republicans on the issue. He thinks that it should not be cut.

But then again, I interviewed Senator Kyrsten Sinema yesterday, the new independent from Arizona, she told me there is a bipartisan working group in the Senate addressing social security. And they plan to come out with a plan on ways to reform the system. So, this is definitely not going to be the end of the discussion on those issues.

Yamiche Alcindor: Very, very interesting to hear that.

And, Errin, you wrote this week about the state of the union. You pointed out that President Biden did not spend that much time or almost anytime on talking abortion or LGBTQ rights. It wasn't something that he wanted to lean in on. What are you hearing from sources, especially women and people who are impacted by these issues?

Errin Haines, Editor-at-Large, The 19th: Yes. I mean, I think what the president was emphasizing on Tuesday night did matter. Part of that you could see in the guests that were in the gallery seated with the first lady. I think probably among the most notable were Tyre Nichols' parents, RowVaughn Wells, who I spoke to ahead of the state of the union, who was hoping that her presence there would really put a human face on the issue police reform as they try to regain some sort of momentum to deal with that issue in a very politically divided Congress that stalled out on this issue last summer. You saw other black lawmakers had other family members in the gallery.

The president did mention the word abortion for the first time in the state of the union address but kept those remarks brief, as well as a nod to transgender youth and, really, I think the activists that I spoke while they said that they were heartened by hearing the president mention issues, like reproductive rights access, the LGBTQ rights and also gun violence, the work is still unfinished. And that's why you have President Biden saying, let's finish the job, but mentioning those types of things in a state of the union speech does signal that they are priorities and it also signals that he understands perhaps the type of coalition that he is going to have to pull together if indeed he is running for re-election, as we expect him to announce imminently.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Errin, I want to ask you -- I was looking at some Nielsen reports and it said that 27.3 million viewers tuned in. That's a drop of 29 percent from last year, meaning 29 percent less people in this country watched the state of the union this year than last year. What does that tell you about the importance of this, the significance of the state of the union versus the president going out there and going to these key battleground states?

Errin Haines: Well, there are many Americans who are kind of tuning in for the first time to what the administration has been doing. I mean, we just had a Washington Post/ABC Poll that said six in ten Americans don't really feel like the administration is doing very much, they are not really aware of what the administration's accomplishments have been, even as you have President Biden kind of ticking off what he sees as the administration's accomplishments in that state of the union address.

And I think that is why you also saw him immediately hitting the road, continuing to hammer that theme of finish the job on the road, President Biden in Wisconsin, in Florida, Vice President Kamala Harris being dispatched to Atlanta the very next day. They're talking about infrastructure, the jobs that are coming, the opportunities that are available and the work that they still want to do on behalf of Americans, while you also have Republicans casting Sarah Huckabee Sanders and her response, really leaning into those culture wars in kind of a different sort of appeal to I think the working class voters that both of these parties are attempting to try to harness headed into 2024.

Yamiche Alcindor: Very interesting.

And, Peter, the other thing that you pointed out to our producers, and I had to go back and actually double check, President Biden has spent very little time talking about global issues, Ukraine, China, some of the things that we see as priorities in the White House's agenda. What do you make of that?

Peter Baker: Yes. It was inverse proportions, the amount of time he probably spent in private dealing with China and Ukraine, just to say the two of them, and he didn't mention the others either. Turkey just had a monster, horrific earthquake, no mention of that, no mention of the Middle East, not mention of South America, no mention of North Korea.

And I think it talks to you about how much this is a domestic-oriented, campaign-oriented speech, right? He rolled out a lot of things that are good for the progressive base but it never would have passed the Republican House. So, why does he do it? To state a position to say, this is where I'm fighting for, and if you want to take this issue to the voters, I'm happy to do it. That's his re-election campaign speech, and Ukraine and China are not helpful to him in that regard. Many Americans don't want to talk about foreign affairs. They want to talk about what is happening here at home.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Leigh Ann, I mean, talk to me a bit about how Republicans view this. You think about the fact that their strategy was to sort of beat him up on the domestic issues when you think about 2024, but also even a little closer to the debt ceiling. What does that tell you about sort of the way the Republicans see these things?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Well, Republicans are gearing up for a fight, right? We saw that in the fight to elect Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the House, the far-right faction of the party really imposed their priorities on McCarthy and on Republicans. And so they are prepared to make their demands.

And one thing that actually surprised me with the president's speech is that I was actually expecting him to adopt Republican framing and focus on cutting deficits, focusing on the debt, but he did not do that. That's something President Obama actually did in 2011 in his state of the union speech after he was shellacked in the midterm elections, the height of the tea party movement where Republicans were focused on deficit-cutting. Biden really avoided that and he kept the national and domestic discussion in his terms.

Nikole Killion: And I would note that he also -- I think, as somebody who covered him in 2020, I noticed he hearkened to a lot of those similar themes he raised during the campaign about trying to be a president for all Americans, not betting against America. So, I think to Peter's point, and we know that the White House or those around the president were kind of looking at this address as potentially a softer re-launch for his campaign. And that was definitely notable in some of the phrases he laid out.

Peter Baker: It was really a steady as she goes speech for unsteady times, right? He made the mood music of bipartisanship, work with me on this, we've done it together. But his point is your work with me on my priorities not on working with you on your priorities. He did not do what Obama or Clinton did in 1995 in part because he doesn't feel like he got a shellacking last fall, right? Even though they lost the House, they feel like they did better than expected, and therefore, they don't feel repudiated and don't feel the need to pivot to the middle on that sense.

Yamiche Alcindor: And it's interesting when you think about sort of the fact that he did not pivot to the middle.

Errin, you talked about the fact that you spoke to RowVaughn Wells, who, of course, is the mother of Tyre Nichols. To go back to that issue, he talked about the talk, which, of course, is this conversation that parents have with their black kids, mainly their black boys, but also their black daughters, to say here is how you can survive a police interaction. And he sort of said, I didn't have to have this talk with my kids, we have to think about the fact we are living in a country where other people, black and brown families have to. What's the reaction been to that? I know you said that people want more reforms then. But I just wonder if people are touched or think that that might move any part of this?

Errin Haines: Yes, I do think the folks that I spoke to were struck by kind of the tone that President Biden struck in really humanizing RowVaughn Wells and Rodney Wells, these parents who are still grieving. I mean, it was only a month after Tyre Nichols was beaten, that they were sitting in that gallery. So, these are still breathing parents, putting a face on that and even acknowledging even though this was not his experience with his own children, trying to appeal to Americans that this is an issue that all Americans should care about and all Americans should want police reform.

Defunding the police was not the message that you heard, which was something that a lot of folks have been critical of, were critical of in previous election cycles, but that was not the message that President Biden was touting. Really, it was so much of a happy warrior kind of stance in such stark contrast to that kind of bare knuckle brawler style that you saw from the former president, who obviously is definitely running again.

But, listen, just because whether or not President Trump is the nominee, you still have these other could-be candidates, Nikki Haley, who is expected to announce next week, the former South Carolina governor, Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor, or others, who may not necessarily be acting in the style of Trump but certainly embrace a lot of that rhetoric and some of the culture wars agenda that definitely appealed to some number of those voters.

And so the contrast in style I think was on display and that issue was a prime example of how you saw that playing out.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I want to say something about Tyre Nichols. I was in the gallery during the speech, and so I saw Tyre Nichols' mom. And during one of the standing ovations that she got from the entire chamber, she was such a force. She stood up. And to the Republicans, who were also giving her a standing ovation, she said thank you, thank you, had her hands like this, and said we need to do something.

And so it was a really poignant moment as well. And what President Biden did is when he talked about police reform in a very optimistic way despite its uphill chances, passing on Capitol Hill, he did not talk about policy or specifics but he appealed to people's emotions and it was a different tactic is than what he normally does. And we will see if it is going to be effective.

Nikole Killion: And you did see Kevin McCarthy too also stand up for the line where he talked about greater accountability for officers, which was notable. And talking to some folks after the speech, I think they also raised the point of how far both the president and even Republicans might be coming along on this issue granted it is still an uphill battle.

And in part, I think it was intentional the president wasn't that specific about police reform because, quite frankly, lawmakers are still strategizing what that path should be, specifically the Congressional Black Caucus. So, I think that's kind of why you heard him use more general upbeat phrasing to at least instill hope with those parents in the room.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, I mean, it was so hard to watch RowVaughn Wells because, like you said, it's less than a month since her child died and here she is standing and sitting in Congress. So, it's definitely a tough moment.

I want to come to you, Peter, because part of what sort of we were talking about is something that is related in some ways to the vice president. She was, of course, a former prosecutor but she's talked about criminal justice. You and your colleagues at The New York Times wrote a story that's a bit biding about the vice president. Talk about sort of the reporting there and Vice President Kamala Harris trying to find her footing and her messaging here.

Peter Baker: Yes. Look, she is two years in and she's still having trouble, and this is a worry for a lot of Democrats. All who we interviewed for that story are Democrats, just to be clear. And they're concerned with her is fair or not, she has not risen to the occasion, not the way they would like to see her do.

Now, look, this is a big burden. First of all, it stinks to be vice president, all right? Every vice president goes through something like this. Then you add on the burden of being a first, a first this, a first that, first woman, first African-American, first Asian-American to be in that job. There are double standards almost certainly applying.

Having said all that, the people who are concerned about are the people who want her to succeed and feel like she hasn't, that she hasn't become visible enough, she hasn't been r strong enough, she hasn't crafted an identity enough for herself.

It may matter less in the sense that we do now believe President Biden is going to run, and, therefore, she doesn't have to step up, but she could be a liability to the ticket if Republicans make the obvious argument, which is that voting for an 82-year-old president who will be 86 at the end of his second term means you may be voting for Kamala Harris to be president. If she's seen as a political liability, that's something that they don't.

So, she has an opportunity. Now, she won't be tethered to the Senate the same way she was because it won't be a 50-50 tie. She's telling her staff I want to get out there more, I want to be on the road three times a week, I want to do stronger speeches. Abortion had been one area where she has found her voice, and they're looking for ways to kind of reboot.

Yamiche Alcindor: Errin, jump in here. I know you obviously have been covering the vice president very closely.

Errin Haines: Yes. I mean, I did see her during the midterms as a really strong surrogate, frankly, on the issue of abortion and really tying that to voting rights, tying it to the erosion of rights for many Americans in a way that resonated with key coalitions, women, people of color, LGBTQ people, who really see the stakes of our politics right now as existential for a lot of them. And so for her to carry that message in the midterms in a way that felt effective for a lot of those voters I think is something you are going to see continue.

Again, she was out in Atlanta, where Raphael Warnock was just re-elected to the Senate in 2022, in those midterms, and shoring up black voters. They did not get voting rights legislation. Those folks are going to need to be shored up for 2024, again, to put together the kind of coalition that the Biden/Harris administration is going to need to win.

To Peters point, though, a large part of why we are even having this conversation about somebody who is a vice president is because of the president's age and the reality that this is someone who potentially could be president. And so that certainly is drawing a lot of scrutiny, although a lot of people that I also have talked to say is the scrutiny that she is getting, how does that jive with the reality on the ground with the voters that she is connecting with as she's getting to get out there more?

Yamiche Alcindor: Yes. And, Leigh Ann, I mean, there's so much we could say about former Vice President Mike Pence. We have to make this hard turn, which is that he -- not only was there additional classified documents found in his home after there were other documents that he handed over, there was also the fact that he was subpoenaed by the special prosecutor who was looking at the Capitol attack and the Trump administration, former President Trump's role and possibly doing that. What do you think this means politically for him given the fact that it looks like he might run in 2024?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes. A lot of challenges for Mike Pence running for president, not only on the legal sense but also what sort of lane is he in. And I think that that actually dovetails in him being subpoenaed with the special prosecutor's case because Mike pence, we know his role on January 6th. It was standing up to Donald Trump. It was very different from what Donald Trump says. Now, he is out there and not willing to say very clearly and stake out that position very firmly of where he is. But this issue is going -- with this investigation ongoing, it's going to be something he is going to have to talk about over and over again.

Yamiche Alcindor: Peter, in the minute we have left, break down this Mike Pence debacle.

Peter Baker: Yes. Well, I think Leigh Ann has got it exactly right. I don't know where his lane is, right? The pro-Trump crowd were the ones who were saying, hang Mike Pence, on January 6th, 2021. The anti-Trump people are certainly not satisfied with his trying to straddle that line between being loyal and not.

Having said that, I think to the extent he wants to talk and being subpoenaed is the best way for him, because it means he is being forced to do it, he is obligated to do it, it is a legal duty, not that he is volunteering to do it and looking like a disloyal Trumper.

Yamiche Alcindor: And a wildcard for those watching who are at home, I'm going to ask Peter this. We shot down yet another thing in the air, Peter. What's the White House saying about this?

Peter Baker: Another thing is the right way to put it because they are not telling us what this thing is. Is it a balloon? Is it an aircraft or some sort? They're saying it's an object. They don't know whose object it is. Is it China's? We don't know. Is it Russia's? We don't know.

So, they're going to try to find out more. They shot it down over the water just off the Alaskan coast, it is frozen there, so they think that they can get a lot of the debris and analyze it, figure out what it was. It's not the same thing that we saw with the Chinese balloon. It is smaller. It doesn't have the same look to it and trying to figure out what it is.

Yamiche Alcindor: Well, I mean, every single week, it's like the Chinese spy balloon, something in the air. We will have to leave it there but, clearly, I could ask more questions about that. Thank you so much to our panelists for joining us and for sharing your reporting.

And be sure to tune into PBS News Weekend for the latest from Turkey and Syria following, of course, that recent deadly, massive earthquake.

And, finally, three words for this weekend's Super Bowl, fly, Eagles, fly. I said it.

I am Yamiche Alcindor. Good night from Washington.